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Speaker 10: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 10: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 10: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 10: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 10: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 10: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 11: Good evening. Warning, This book contains several crime scene photos
Speaker 11: that are graphic in nature and maybe very disturbing to
Speaker 11: some people. Do not proceed if under the age of
Speaker 11: eighteen or are disturbed by scenes of death and violence.
Speaker 11: One after another, young women disappeared without a trace in
Speaker 11: the night. One by one, their brutalized bodies turned up.
Speaker 11: The macabre crime scenes suggested they share the same cruel fate. Abducted,
Speaker 11: bound and raped, All fell prey to an unknown killer.
Speaker 11: All became the victims of a deadly deception. The book
Speaker 11: that we're featuring this evening is Deadly Deception, True story
Speaker 11: of Tampa serial killer Bobby Joe Long special guest nalists
Speaker 11: and author J. T. Hunter.
Speaker 7: JT.
Speaker 11: Hunter is not connected as of yet we contacted or
Speaker 11: spoke this morning, so I'm sure he is just a
Speaker 11: moment late connecting to the program. I'll just set the
Speaker 11: stage here that we were going to be talking about
Speaker 11: May thirteenth, nineteen eighty four, Mother's Day in a Hillsboro
Speaker 11: County Sheriff Department and a Lieutenant Gary Terry thirteen years
Speaker 11: on the force.
Speaker 7: Here we go.
Speaker 11: Welcome to the program, journalist and author JT. Hunter.
Speaker 7: Thanks happing to be here.
Speaker 11: Thank you very much. Yes, I just introduced it. We
Speaker 11: set the stage in Hillbury, Hillsborough County and the sheriff
Speaker 11: Department and Lieutenant Gary Terry. So tell us what call
Speaker 11: he gets and what he sets off on this incredible
Speaker 11: journey here with Bobby Joe Long. So, tell us about
Speaker 11: this first phone call and what it contains he is
Speaker 11: told on the phone that day, May thirteenth.
Speaker 5: Okay, well, yeah, he got a call that the body
Speaker 5: of a young Oriental female then found by a couple
Speaker 5: of teenage boys in a remote area in a Tampa
Speaker 5: suburb there in Hillsboro County.
Speaker 7: And he responded out there, you know, and of course
Speaker 7: it'd being but the timing of it it being on
Speaker 7: Mother's Day, you know, kind of got a reaction from
Speaker 7: him initially to have to respond to such a thing
Speaker 7: on a day like that. So he responded out there
Speaker 7: to the scene and you know, found the victim out there.
Speaker 11: Now you talk about what they this woman is found
Speaker 11: in this at this crime scene here, and you describe
Speaker 11: and you include it as we've did in the warning.
Speaker 11: You include these crime scene photos. So tell us what
Speaker 11: the nature of the what they find at the crime
Speaker 11: scene in terms of her condition, and as you describe,
Speaker 11: please tell us what they find in that. As you say,
Speaker 11: it's burnt into Lieutenant Terry's memory, So tell us what
Speaker 11: he sees and witnesses.
Speaker 7: Well, the victim, the victim was bound, her hands were
Speaker 7: bound behind her, behind her back, and she was face down.
Speaker 7: She was nude, fully fully nuge. And what had really
Speaker 7: left a really lasting impression Terry was the way that
Speaker 7: her body had been positioned. Her legs had been purposely
Speaker 7: spread wide, you know, in order to shock whoever found
Speaker 7: the body ostensively, and it certainly did shock Terry and
Speaker 7: the rest of the officers that that that were there
Speaker 7: at the scene. Terry had said, you know, made a
Speaker 7: comment that he'd never seen a body displayed in that
Speaker 7: that way before a scene before and it really really
Speaker 7: frightened him to think, you know, who would have done
Speaker 7: this and you know, been been so evil essentially to
Speaker 7: pose a body like this, you know, let alone murdering
Speaker 7: this victim, but then to leave her body in the state,
Speaker 7: you know, on top of it. And you know, and
Speaker 7: it was pretty gruesome too because the body had been
Speaker 7: there for a while, so there was maggots crawling around
Speaker 7: on her and flies and all that, you know, on
Speaker 7: top of it. So it was a it was a
Speaker 7: gruesome discovery. And you know, as you said, as you mentioned,
Speaker 7: there's there are some crime scene photos of them as
Speaker 7: well as the other victims in the book as well,
Speaker 7: and they are, you know, some of them are pretty
Speaker 7: pretty graphic, pretty disturbing.
Speaker 11: Now you just talk about the newspaper coverage May fifteenth,
Speaker 11: investigators are lacking for clues in girls' death, but they
Speaker 11: do have the description five foot two and eighty eight
Speaker 11: pounds and long black hair. Then, but you say through
Speaker 11: fingerprints they a couple days later they have her as
Speaker 11: identified as and again Lana Long, twenty year old dancer
Speaker 11: at the Sly Fox Strip club in so anyway, she
Speaker 11: is originally from Los Angeles and she's just recently in Florida.
Speaker 11: You talk about what the emmy concludes, what did he
Speaker 11: find out from the medical examiner, what's his conclusion, And
Speaker 11: then before we talk about just a couple of weeks
Speaker 11: later and the next corpse found.
Speaker 7: Well, you said, yeah, they did determine through fingerprin analysis
Speaker 7: it was lan Along and she had Laspan seen a
Speaker 7: wife leaving her apartment complex near the University of South
Speaker 7: Florida May eleventh, so a few days earlier, and the
Speaker 7: medical examiner concluded she'd been killed by strangulation. It was
Speaker 7: pretty evident upon examination of the body that she'd been
Speaker 7: strangled to death.
Speaker 11: Now, while police are still gathering evidence, obviously not too
Speaker 11: many leads and obviously don't have any concrete suspects whatsoever.
Speaker 11: It's May twenty seventh, nineteen eighty four, as you write,
Speaker 11: a two weeks later, another nude corpse turns up in
Speaker 11: Tampa Bay area, and again Lieutenant Terry arrives at the scene.
Speaker 11: So what's different about this crime scene and this murder
Speaker 11: in particular.
Speaker 7: Well, there is a difference, there's similarities and differences, and
Speaker 7: the similarity of this one like the prior victim, this
Speaker 7: victim's hands i'd both been tied behind her back by
Speaker 7: a similar type of clothes line rope I was described.
Speaker 7: But in addition, there was stab wounds on this second
Speaker 7: victim to her neck so severely that her neck had
Speaker 7: her head had almost been decapitated, the slash was so
Speaker 7: deep on it. And she also had blunt trauma injuries
Speaker 7: to her head as well. So a little more violent
Speaker 7: ending for the second victim.
Speaker 11: Right now, you say, three weeks later, there's pass without
Speaker 11: any new bodies, and they're still working this investigation. Obviously.
Speaker 11: You talk about June twenty fourth and a man named
Speaker 11: Ronnie Barnes, he's working at an orange grove and pleasant grove.
Speaker 11: Tell us what he discovers and about our next victim.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so this third victim, Yeah, this this Ronnie Barnes
Speaker 7: was was working an orange grove out there, another rural
Speaker 7: area around the Tampa area there, and as he was
Speaker 7: mowing in and out of the trees there, he noticed
Speaker 7: a you know, a strong odor, kind of a rotten
Speaker 7: meat kind of smell, and it got worse the closer
Speaker 7: he approached a tree, so he got off the moor.
Speaker 7: He had there to take a look at it, and
Speaker 7: he found another body. This one was was pretty badly
Speaker 7: decomposed one virtually almost mummified, and uh, you know, obviously
Speaker 7: notified authorities as soon as he found.
Speaker 11: That, he tuk the dcomp so advanced that she weighed
Speaker 11: an actual only twenty five pounds.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so she had been definitely been out there for
Speaker 7: a while. Guestimated time of death or a week to
Speaker 7: two weeks earlier, So she'd been there a while. And
Speaker 7: you know, exposure to the Florida sun in the summertime
Speaker 7: certainly can take its toll.
Speaker 11: Now, what they find out about Elizabeth Loudenback is that
Speaker 11: she's a factory worker, twenty two years old and live
Speaker 11: with her parents in North Tampa. Was last seeing June eighth.
Speaker 11: But she's not a prostitutor dancer. And you also say
Speaker 11: there's no ligatures found, but there are tell us what
Speaker 11: other things in common with the other two crimes, and
Speaker 11: are the other two crimes quickly linked and what do
Speaker 11: they and can they link? And how do they link
Speaker 11: this third murder with those two?
Speaker 7: Yeah, so they're investigators and crime scene technicians were able
Speaker 7: to recover some red fibers at the scene for this
Speaker 7: third victim, and uh, subsequently these were matched and it
Speaker 7: was determined that they these red fibers had to come
Speaker 7: from the same source, come from the same place as
Speaker 7: fibers that were found at the line along crime scene
Speaker 7: the first victim and then the second victim as well,
Speaker 7: who was Michelle Simms. So they were they had the
Speaker 7: commonality of these red fibers at all three of these
Speaker 7: crime scenes. So it was obvious, you know, at this
Speaker 7: point to to Gary Terry and his group there, his
Speaker 7: group of investigators that you know, these these three were
Speaker 7: certainly linked and uh, you know, they had they had
Speaker 7: a serial killing on their hands.
Speaker 11: They talk about before they can really do anything, and
Speaker 11: we'll talk about soon they contact the FBI, but before
Speaker 11: that even happens, you say, near in another county, Pascal
Speaker 11: County line, you talk about another person has found an
Speaker 11: eighteen year old named Channel Williams. Tell us about how
Speaker 11: they find her and what if any similarities and like
Speaker 11: you said, the differences regarding this murder.
Speaker 7: Well, like the other three, this fourth one was the
Speaker 7: body was you know in a remote area actually at
Speaker 7: the entrance of a cattle ranch, and there were similar
Speaker 7: things at the crime scene, you know, the primary one
Speaker 7: being these red fibers turning up again. You know, there
Speaker 7: was a difference in this dictum that the victim actually
Speaker 7: had a gunshot wound to her neck and head, unlike
Speaker 7: the prior three victims. So a little bit of difference
Speaker 7: in the murders the cause of death in the four victims,
Speaker 7: but a lot of other things in common, including you know,
Speaker 7: the binding of the hands and the red fibers and
Speaker 7: these sorts of things. So certainly things linking them all together,
Speaker 7: you say.
Speaker 11: Soon after, in September, Lieutenant Terry requests a criminal personality
Speaker 11: profile from the FBI, and Special Agent Stanley Jacobson is
Speaker 11: prepares a profile. So tell us what they look at
Speaker 11: they looked at, pardon me, and what they concluded at
Speaker 11: least for this preliminary profile to help and assist police
Speaker 11: to find the serial killer.
Speaker 7: Yeah, the FBI profile, and folks there you mentioned special
Speaker 7: Agent Jacobson, he was kind of took the weed on it,
Speaker 7: but so he and his group they looked at, you know,
Speaker 7: the crime scene photos obviously to see the common ways
Speaker 7: the bodies had been and left and things that were
Speaker 7: found there. And they reviewed those and forensic evidets found
Speaker 7: at the scenes. They also interviewed Garry Terry and the
Speaker 7: other pomicide detectives involved in the investigations, and they took
Speaker 7: all that information and then of course integrated it with
Speaker 7: their experience and other cases with other killers to come
Speaker 7: up with their profile of the likely likely killer. And
Speaker 7: so you know, they obviously they generated the psychological profile
Speaker 7: in the hopes of aiding Terry and his men and
Speaker 7: trying to figure out who was doing these killings.
Speaker 11: Now again, they don't have much time to wait and
Speaker 11: to talk about October fourteenth, two weeks after Channel Williams's discovery,
Speaker 11: another woman, Karen Dinspring Dinsframe Friend, twenty eight years old,
Speaker 11: another Orange grove on the east side of in the
Speaker 11: same almost in the same area she was last seen
Speaker 11: October fourteenth, working at the area of Nebraska and Hillsboro. Again,
Speaker 11: tell us what they found there that was common and
Speaker 11: what is the reaction from police and you, as you're
Speaker 11: right about, what is the reaction in the community in
Speaker 11: terms of panic.
Speaker 7: Well, like the prior, Like these prior victims, Karen, Karen's
Speaker 7: body had clear evidence of having been bound. Her her
Speaker 7: hands and feet had visible literature marks as well as
Speaker 7: her neck, so she had been bound very similarly to
Speaker 7: the prior victims. And these red fibers, again, this is
Speaker 7: the big closest thing they have, I guess to a
Speaker 7: smoking gun at this point. Is these red fibers, those
Speaker 7: common element, this common thread, matching the the all the
Speaker 7: prior killings as well. And so sure enough, you know,
Speaker 7: the subsequent analysis by the FBI labs confirms that these
Speaker 7: red fibers are all coming from the same same place.
Speaker 7: They're all originating the same the same source. So of
Speaker 7: course if they can never figure out what the source is,
Speaker 7: this will go a long way to to you know,
Speaker 7: conclusively linking all these all these murders. And you know,
Speaker 7: as you can imagine, finding these kind of bodies pretty
Speaker 7: close in time together, these similar circumstances of the killings, UH,
Speaker 7: certainly raised alarm in the in the Tampa area around there.
Speaker 7: A lot of people started getting really nervous and and worried.
Speaker 7: You know, obviously there's somebody out there that's up, you know,
Speaker 7: up to up to evil things, and nobody really had
Speaker 7: any clue at this point who it could be, so
Speaker 7: anybody who was a potential killer. So a lot of
Speaker 7: people were looking over their shoulders, being being careful and
Speaker 7: hoping that they weren't the next victim.
Speaker 11: And yet it's not too long after you talk about
Speaker 11: Halloween Eve, October thirtieth, nineteen eighty four, two hundred feet
Speaker 11: from the Pasco Hillsborough County line. She's ideed many weeks later.
Speaker 11: But this is Kimberly Hops twenty two year old, last
Speaker 11: seeing October fourth, and police are frustrated. And now you
Speaker 11: could say there's a good reason for people to be afraid,
Speaker 11: because even though this is in the eighties, this is
Speaker 11: an era that's already passed where we've had some infamous people.
Speaker 11: And you introduce somebody there's an incredible story where somebody
Speaker 11: offers their services. So tell us about what police are.
Speaker 11: You say that they're frustrated, but then somebody offers their services.
Speaker 11: Tell us who that would be?
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, familiar, familiar name. As you mentioned, they're probably
Speaker 7: one to be the most infamous serial killer in our country.
Speaker 7: Ted Bundy had offered his services. He had heard about
Speaker 7: the killings and went so far as to send a
Speaker 7: letter to the sheriff they're in Hillsborough County offering to
Speaker 7: help out in the case and making some suggestions including,
Speaker 7: you know, to watch the areas where the bodies have
Speaker 7: been found to see if the killer came back to
Speaker 7: relive the experience, or you know, even more ghastly maybe too,
Speaker 7: you know, to try to do something with the bodies
Speaker 7: there as well, as Bundy himself was known to have done.
Speaker 7: So he offered that suggestion, and uh, you know, probably
Speaker 7: with not much else to go on, I'm sure the
Speaker 7: investigators were tempted to try to go down that path,
Speaker 7: but they didn't. They didn't end up ever finalizing any
Speaker 7: sort of arrangement to enlist on these help but certainly
Speaker 7: interesting possibility there.
Speaker 11: You do say that what they do though is maybe
Speaker 11: it's not from bundy suggestion, but they say, because there's
Speaker 11: so many victims that have been seen around the Nebraska Avenue,
Speaker 11: which is the Red Light District or part of it. Anyway,
Speaker 11: he assigned a special unit to conduct knight surveillance in
Speaker 11: what you call the killer's hunting ground. And yet still
Speaker 11: no soli Elite.
Speaker 7: Yeah, nothing to that point. They were still basically chasing
Speaker 7: a phantom at that point.
Speaker 11: Now again, not too much long longer after this that
Speaker 11: you have November fourth and someone's a teenage girls abducted
Speaker 11: on their way home from work. Tell us about what
Speaker 11: happens here, because this person gets to tell the tale.
Speaker 7: Yeah, this turned out to be a big break in
Speaker 7: the case. And it was early November second November second.
Speaker 7: This teenage girl, the seventeen year old girl. Her name
Speaker 7: was Lisa McVeigh. She had finished up working her night shift,
Speaker 7: her late shift the Donut Place there in Tampa, and
Speaker 7: she was on her way home. She rode her bike
Speaker 7: to work and rode her bike back home at night,
Speaker 7: and she was peddling her bike back home from work
Speaker 7: and ended up having someone jump out from behind a
Speaker 7: parked van and knocking her off her bike and grabbing
Speaker 7: her and taking her, dragging her across the street and
Speaker 7: putting her in another parked vehicle and abducting her. And
Speaker 7: this this this man had a gun and warned her
Speaker 7: when he grabbed her not to scream or he would
Speaker 7: blow her brains out, and she believed him. And he
Speaker 7: order her to keep her eyes closed so she couldn't
Speaker 7: see who he was, so she never saw his face,
Speaker 7: but he did force her into his car, and she
Speaker 7: was very much afraid that she was going to be killed.
Speaker 7: So she decided what she would do is just go
Speaker 7: along with whatever he said and try to, you know,
Speaker 7: try not to make him mad or anger him. And
Speaker 7: so when when he ordered her the strip, he did,
Speaker 7: she did it. And he ordered her to do sexual
Speaker 7: things for him. She complied. And so after after getting
Speaker 7: her in the car and doing these things, he drove
Speaker 7: off with her in the car and ended up taking
Speaker 7: her back to his residence, eventually took her in there
Speaker 7: and all the while kept her either make sure her
Speaker 7: eyes were closed or blindfolded her at various times as well.
Speaker 7: And you know, they parked, parked the car and got out,
Speaker 7: and he told her that they were at an office building.
Speaker 7: They're going to get out go inside of it. He
Speaker 7: let her out of the car through the parking lot,
Speaker 7: up through an entrance way, and up some stairs and
Speaker 7: into into a room and ended up keeping her there.
Speaker 7: And she described the the ordeal as a very kind
Speaker 7: of strange ordeal because the subductor went from kind of
Speaker 7: back and forth on his his attitude and his mood
Speaker 7: and the way he treated her. You know, at times
Speaker 7: he was very gruff with her and very rough, and
Speaker 7: then you suddenly he could change his demeanor and be
Speaker 7: very kind and you know, very carrying almost towards her.
Speaker 11: Yeah, you're read's fascinating because it really gets inside likely
Speaker 11: the behavior he had with every one of these women
Speaker 11: except for this reason. And you do say one of
Speaker 11: the reasons why he says later she really does have this.
Speaker 11: She really decides to have a strategy to cooperate so
Speaker 11: that she can survive. So she's talking to him. She
Speaker 11: even talks about her own family, her own father in
Speaker 11: the conversation at some point. But you talk about how
Speaker 11: he has after he's sodomized her, basically taking her into
Speaker 11: the shower and gently washing her and then blow drying
Speaker 11: her hair and telling her she has pretty hair, and
Speaker 11: removing the blindfold for a little while. So, yeah, it's
Speaker 11: an incredible one hundred and eighty degree difference from where
Speaker 11: he starts and where he thinks he somehow had a
Speaker 11: relationship with this woman. So she really does psychologically play
Speaker 11: into whatever she thinks he might really want and really
Speaker 11: for her own survival. She's very very clever in this regard,
Speaker 11: isn't she.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's exactly as you say. That's really what was
Speaker 7: pointed to later as to why she survived this encounter,
Speaker 7: whereas the prior women had not been able to. You know,
Speaker 7: she she really did. Uh, she really did keep her
Speaker 7: keep her head about her during all this, and I
Speaker 7: was able to survive it.
Speaker 11: Yeah, there's a couple of times he kind of tests
Speaker 11: her because he goes to an ATM, he goes to
Speaker 11: a garage. And then meanwhile she uses these opportunities to
Speaker 11: look around and and remember details that will help. She
Speaker 11: believes law enforcement later to be able to apprehend this person,
Speaker 11: and it does help in aiding all the things she does.
Speaker 11: Get a peek at under this blindfold.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, she did. She was able to get little glimpses
Speaker 7: out of the blindfold while she was in the car,
Speaker 7: and so she's able to see, you know, for example,
Speaker 7: he's he actually told her he had to stop and
Speaker 7: you know, get some money. So she was able to
Speaker 7: kind of peek out and look around and some landmarks,
Speaker 7: you know, including some signs for some businesses, some hotels
Speaker 7: along the road and near the interstate and whatnot. And yeah,
Speaker 7: so later on after she was safe again, she was
Speaker 7: able to read investigators to these areas, to these landmarks.
Speaker 11: And it's interesting too, because I don't know how you
Speaker 11: capture the horror that this woman is is enduring for
Speaker 11: the couple of days, because he's saying things, well, I
Speaker 11: don't really want to let you go. I just might
Speaker 11: keep you and then hugging kisses her forehead. So there's
Speaker 11: a lot of things where she doesn't she's not out
Speaker 11: of the woods till she's out of the woods and
Speaker 11: he leaves her somewhere and she then what does she do?
Speaker 7: Yeah, she keeps, you know, placating him as best she
Speaker 7: can and going along with it and and and really
Speaker 7: trying to make this connection with him, which she seems
Speaker 7: to have done, you know, since she she did was
Speaker 7: able to survive the encounter, and and you know, he
Speaker 7: did become more gentle with her and everything. And you know,
Speaker 7: she even told him that her her father was very sick,
Speaker 7: and these sorts of things to try to garner sympathy
Speaker 7: with him. And so eventually he decided he was going
Speaker 7: to release her. You know, he said, you know, i'd
Speaker 7: i'd like to keep you basically, but I can't, you know,
Speaker 7: and these sorts of things, and finally ended up driving
Speaker 7: her away and and and leaving her and on a
Speaker 7: corner and and you know, Tampa in the downtown Tampa area,
Speaker 7: and uh and and left her there so she was
Speaker 7: able to then make her way back home afterwards.
Speaker 11: Now, we talked about the things that she could see,
Speaker 11: but she was really hindered by that blindfold. But a
Speaker 11: couple of really important things to help police. And you
Speaker 11: talk about the the car and the insignia that's on
Speaker 11: that car that she remembered, tell us what those two
Speaker 11: things that she did remember and it does lead police
Speaker 11: to to look for that vehicle. So tell us what
Speaker 11: she does remember and see and recount the police.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so in addition to seeing these hotel signs and
Speaker 7: various other landmarks outside. She was able to see inside
Speaker 7: the car at times as well, and she saw the
Speaker 7: color and she's able to describe that it was this
Speaker 7: you know, dark red or maroon colored vehicle, and it
Speaker 7: had a white interior. And she also saw that this
Speaker 7: this this wording, this this strip on the dashboard that
Speaker 7: said Magnum in silver letters. So she was able to
Speaker 7: tell the investigators about that, and that ended up proving
Speaker 7: to be the key, key point, as you indicated later on.
Speaker 7: And you know, she even was able to describe a
Speaker 7: little bit of the physical appearance of her doctor. She
Speaker 7: saw a little bit of him. She saw, you know,
Speaker 7: his his nose and ears and his general build you know,
Speaker 7: from from both touching him and then also kind of
Speaker 7: what little peaks she could get as well. So she's
Speaker 7: able to describe him a little bit too. But but
Speaker 7: certainly the interior of the vehicle was very important.
Speaker 11: Now you talk about just now they have a description
Speaker 11: of the men in this car, and of course they're
Speaker 11: you know that they have some dedicated officers that are
Speaker 11: going to take that that the information and do something
Speaker 11: with it in terms of looking out for that as
Speaker 11: you say, a detailed search for that vehicle and then
Speaker 11: a strategy as a result for the police. But November sixth,
Speaker 11: you talk about a couple of young girls horseback riding
Speaker 11: in Zephyr Hills and again a strange order order coming
Speaker 11: and so they find another body. So tell us about
Speaker 11: what they find and what do detectives do next.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so on November sixth, Yeah, there was a couple
Speaker 7: of women were out out riding, going for a ride
Speaker 7: on their horses in Zephyr Hills in the late morning
Speaker 7: and they noticed, you know, again, there was a smell
Speaker 7: they noticed, and you know, they kind of followed that
Speaker 7: and it led them to another body that very very
Speaker 7: decomposed by and pretty pre skeletonized, and you know, they
Speaker 7: obviously alerted authorities to that, and sure enough, you know,
Speaker 7: it turns out that this is another another victim of
Speaker 7: the same same killer, still unidentified killer. He had another
Speaker 7: victim here November sixth, and they weren't able to identify
Speaker 7: that victim until quite a bit later through dental records,
Speaker 7: I think, is what it ended up being. And she
Speaker 7: had been dead for quite some time, several weeks. She
Speaker 7: explained the state of her body and while they were
Speaker 7: still trying to figure out who that was. An another
Speaker 7: victim turned out.
Speaker 11: In the midst of this too, there was a task
Speaker 11: force set up, So tell us a little bit just
Speaker 11: about that task force being formed.
Speaker 7: Well, because the bodies were being discovered in different jurisdictions
Speaker 7: around the area there, it was decided to form this
Speaker 7: task force with all of the affected agencies involved, and
Speaker 7: the Hillsbury County Sheriff's Office was going to take the
Speaker 7: leads and most of the most of the bodies have
Speaker 7: been from there, but there are also ones found in
Speaker 7: the Tampa Police Department's jurisdiction as well, so they were
Speaker 7: included as part of this task force as well, and
Speaker 7: Pascoe County too, So it was a multi jurisdictional task
Speaker 7: force with Hillsboro County Sheriff's Office taken the lead with
Speaker 7: specifically with Gary Terry kind of overseeing the whole thing.
Speaker 11: Right now, you talk about November fourteenth. November fifteenth, and again,
Speaker 11: the maroon car two door passed a couple officers, Detective
Speaker 11: Helms and tap a PD So tell us what happens
Speaker 11: when they pull over? What do they find?
Speaker 7: Yeah, so these two detectives were driving around the you know,
Speaker 7: the strip area, kind of the red light area as
Speaker 7: you said earlier on Nebraska Avenue, keeping their eyes open,
Speaker 7: and they, sure enough, they encountered a maroon two door
Speaker 7: car passed by him in the opposite direction, and it
Speaker 7: seemed to match the description that Lisa McVay had given
Speaker 7: about her abductor's vehicle. So they, you know, they promptly
Speaker 7: turned around and followed it and initiated a traffic stop,
Speaker 7: pulled it over, and there was, you know, the one
Speaker 7: one person was in the car driving it, and a
Speaker 7: mail who they were able to identify when he handed
Speaker 7: over his driver's license as Robert Joe Long. And you know,
Speaker 7: they kind of made up the story about why they
Speaker 7: had pulled them over, that there was some hit and
Speaker 7: run accident nearby that they were investigating and his vehicle
Speaker 7: kind of matched something that was involved in that. It
Speaker 7: was kind of the story they gave him. So they
Speaker 7: were able to interact with him a little bit and
Speaker 7: ask him some questions and and take a look at
Speaker 7: his vehicle up close a little bit there, and you know,
Speaker 7: we're able to actually take some photographs of him and
Speaker 7: the car as well. He wouldn't let him search the car,
Speaker 7: but he he did agree to let them take pictures
Speaker 7: of the car and himself as well, and you know,
Speaker 7: following that they ended up letting them go go his
Speaker 7: own way there after that. But this was you know,
Speaker 7: another break in the case because of the the close
Speaker 7: resemblance to what Lisa mcgay had described.
Speaker 11: Absolutely, but as you say, the rules they use is
Speaker 11: to say they're stopping them for something, to take some
Speaker 11: photos of his car. They do notice the Magnum insignia
Speaker 11: and all the description like you say that Lisa has
Speaker 11: given them, and then they say, hey, okay, you're free
Speaker 11: to go. Thanks, and he says, listen, anytime we need this.
Speaker 11: Just jt To's stopped for a second to talk about
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Speaker 5: Now we have.
Speaker 11: We have Bobby Joelong not understanding that police really have
Speaker 11: a really good lead and evidence sufficient to be able
Speaker 11: to arrest him. But what do police do and what
Speaker 11: does Bobby Joelong do?
Speaker 7: Well, soon after after the stop, he actually called the
Speaker 7: police department and kind of complained about being pulled over,
Speaker 7: and you know, said he wanted to be notified when
Speaker 7: the car was found these sorts of things. So he
Speaker 7: was certainly a little bit concerned after being pulled over
Speaker 7: there that they might be onto him a little bit.
Speaker 7: And and the police, meanwhile, they had been SUBTENI bank
Speaker 7: records wrong the North Caampa area, trying to trying to
Speaker 7: find something that would correlate to when Lisa McVay had
Speaker 7: said that her abductor had stopped at ATM and they
Speaker 7: were able to find bank records that did seemed to
Speaker 7: match that time three nine in the morning, and that
Speaker 7: those those records actually were connected to to Bobby Joelan's
Speaker 7: bank account. And they also detectives also were able to
Speaker 7: show a photo pack of suspects to licin the day,
Speaker 7: including the picture of Long from his traffic stop that
Speaker 7: the that they had taken when they when they pulled
Speaker 7: them over, they included out of the photopack and she
Speaker 7: identified Long out of that as well. So using those
Speaker 7: using all that evidence, the circumstantial evidence, they were able
Speaker 7: to get a warrant with both an a restaurant and
Speaker 7: also a search work for Longs vehicle, the Magnum as
Speaker 7: well as his residents too. So they then they had
Speaker 7: surveillance going on long and they followed. The police followed
Speaker 7: him to a movie theater there in Tampa and you know,
Speaker 7: went in when he went into to see a movie there,
Speaker 7: and they had detectives stationed in the parking lot and
Speaker 7: outside the theater there and also in the actual theater
Speaker 7: as well with the movie he was seeing at the time,
Speaker 7: and they followed him out of there and arrested him
Speaker 7: after he came out of the theater and arrested him
Speaker 7: in the fucking lot.
Speaker 11: Yeah, very interesting too. What we hadn't mentioned too, is
Speaker 11: that part of the forensic evidence that police did find
Speaker 11: that the crime scene was at least tire prints, and
Speaker 11: they identified him as a good year Viva tire and
Speaker 11: a Vogue tire usually from a Cadillac, you would say.
Speaker 11: But anyway, they impounded the car and so they got
Speaker 11: confirmation of what they had suspected as well in that regard, didn't.
Speaker 7: Me, Yes, Yeah, that's that was another key part of
Speaker 7: the evidence that they were able to to accumulate. There
Speaker 7: was the tires and like like you mentioned this as
Speaker 7: an unusual tire, this this one type and it was
Speaker 7: a type that you could you could turn the tire
Speaker 7: of so that the white wolves were facing either even
Speaker 7: out sure knows these titles ended up matching the ones
Speaker 7: that were on Bobby Ylong's vehicle.
Speaker 11: Now you talk about how police proceed with this Bobby Joelong,
Speaker 11: what's their strategy in terms of always trying to get
Speaker 11: them to not a lawyer up, ask for an attorney
Speaker 11: and actually give them some information makes things a lot easier.
Speaker 11: And so they go in with some sort of strategy
Speaker 11: to try to be able to elicit some sort of
Speaker 11: a confession. How do they approach Bobby Joelong and what
Speaker 11: are the results? What do they get from him?
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, they put him in an interview room and
Speaker 7: you know, I kind of did the small talk initially
Speaker 7: and whatnot, and he was cooperative and discussing the at
Speaker 7: least of mcveigh's abduction, how he had gone about doing that,
Speaker 7: and you know, kind of why he had decided to
Speaker 7: take her and you know what he did afterwards and
Speaker 7: these sorts of things, and he was he was perfectly
Speaker 7: willing to talk about that. And from there, you know,
Speaker 7: they were hoping to get him to segue into these
Speaker 7: these murders, but he didn't. He didn't just kind of
Speaker 7: go into it. They they started asking him kind of
Speaker 7: general questions about you know, physical evidence if he knows
Speaker 7: what that is, and you know, things like hair and
Speaker 7: blood and fingerprints and and they got even more specific
Speaker 7: to mentioning fibers and entire impressions. And when they when
Speaker 7: they started mentioning those things, you know, they noticed that
Speaker 7: long space. His expression changed there a little bit, seemed
Speaker 7: to be a little a little worried maybe, And he
Speaker 7: started showing pictures then of some of the victims and things,
Speaker 7: and asking him if he had seen any of the
Speaker 7: victims before, and you know, he denied it. He'd never
Speaker 7: seen him, never picked up these people or seen him before.
Speaker 7: They went one by one through all the victims and
Speaker 7: he denied all of them. But you know, after after
Speaker 7: they got through that, they took a break for a
Speaker 7: while along went to the to the bathroom, and when
Speaker 7: he came back, they picked up right back where they
Speaker 7: were and they actually told them, well, look, you know,
Speaker 7: we've we brought in a couple of these experts from Washington,
Speaker 7: d C. To help take a look at the evidence
Speaker 7: we have and things, and you know, we know your
Speaker 7: car has these particular tires on it, and the same
Speaker 7: tire tracks that were left at several of the crime scenes.
Speaker 7: And and you know, the more they mentioned these things,
Speaker 7: you know, kind of the more concerned he seemed to look.
Speaker 7: And he finally he said, well, it sure seems like
Speaker 7: the complexion of this case has changed since, you know,
Speaker 7: since we took this break, and he said, I think
Speaker 7: I might need an attorney, and the detectives interviewing him
Speaker 7: kind of looked at each other for a moment, but
Speaker 7: they kept going, and you know, they said, well, hey,
Speaker 7: nothing's really changed, you know, we're just we just, you know,
Speaker 7: we know you did these things. We just want to
Speaker 7: know why you did it and kind of how you
Speaker 7: went about doing it these sorts of things. We have
Speaker 7: all the evidence already that we need, you know, to
Speaker 7: to connect you to these crimes. We just, you know,
Speaker 7: want to hear your side of it. And so, after
Speaker 7: after confronting him with all this evidence that they had
Speaker 7: a mass that they gathered together, you know, Bobby, he
Speaker 7: sat there for a little bit kind of quietly, and
Speaker 7: then you know, lean back in his chair, took a breath,
Speaker 7: and kind of grinned at him and said, all right,
Speaker 7: I guess I guess you got me good and said, yeah,
Speaker 7: I killed them. And they asked him, well, how many
Speaker 7: of them? And he said all of them, all the
Speaker 7: ones in the paper and so so after that, he
Speaker 7: you know, he went ahead and went through one by
Speaker 7: one the victims, detelling how he had come across them
Speaker 7: and how he had gotten them in his car and
Speaker 7: you know what he had done to them afterwards, and
Speaker 7: give him a lot of details about how he went
Speaker 7: about killing all these different women.
Speaker 11: You also talk about, like discussed all the ruses he
Speaker 11: used to be able to lure these people, and there
Speaker 11: were slight variations, but then he would get to having
Speaker 11: a knife, and it was the things he would ask
Speaker 11: if they wanted to ride. But you also talk about
Speaker 11: what his motivation was. They wanted to know these how
Speaker 11: he picked his victims, and so what does he say
Speaker 11: about how he picked his victims and also some of
Speaker 11: the ruses and some of the things that he disclosed
Speaker 11: to them that else actually later would put things together
Speaker 11: for them a bit better than they understood.
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, he mentioned some of the victims why he
Speaker 7: picked them, it was it's just based on their appearance.
Speaker 7: You know, how they looked. They were kind of dressed
Speaker 7: you know, and kind of revealing clothes or looked kind
Speaker 7: of squeezy or whatnot. And and and that was the
Speaker 7: reason why he had decided on some of them, he mentioned,
Speaker 7: and uh, you know, once he he generally the way
Speaker 7: he went about it was, you know, offering them a ride.
Speaker 7: And you know, a lot of the victims were either
Speaker 7: prostitutes or dancers and these adult establishments, these these nude
Speaker 7: bars in the Tampa area, and so a lot of
Speaker 7: it evolved pretending like he was soliciting them and kind
Speaker 7: of going along with with that to get him in
Speaker 7: the car. But not all of them were that way.
Speaker 7: So some of the some of the ones that that weren't,
Speaker 7: he had other ways of getting them to lower their guard,
Speaker 7: you know, offering you know, help him out if it
Speaker 7: looked like that they were shouldn't be driving, for example,
Speaker 7: maybe they were drunk or something, and so he needed
Speaker 7: to help him out, and these sorts of things. So
Speaker 7: so he definitely had these different ways of deceiving them
Speaker 7: to get them to lower their guard and get them
Speaker 7: into a position where he could, you know, exert some
Speaker 7: control over them.
Speaker 11: He also talked about other crimes, specifically rapes he had.
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Speaker 11: Done in what he said were Miami and Fort Lauderdale
Speaker 11: and tell us how he came upon those victims. What
Speaker 11: was his m O there?
Speaker 7: Yeah, So the other really interesting aspect of this whole cases,
Speaker 7: besides the serial killings that Bobby Joe did, he also
Speaker 7: well before that, he had a really long history, it
Speaker 7: turned out, of being a serial rapist and he was
Speaker 7: known as the classified ad rapist because what he would
Speaker 7: do is he would he would scour the classifieds looking
Speaker 7: for things for sale. A lot of times it would
Speaker 7: be things like you know, furniture, household furniture appliances, those
Speaker 7: sorts of things, and he would you know, call the
Speaker 7: number in the listing there and from the conversation he
Speaker 7: would have on the phone, he would be able to
Speaker 7: tell whether or not it was a you know, potentially
Speaker 7: a good, good victim for him, you know, someone that
Speaker 7: he could be with their alone and rape them and
Speaker 7: do what he wanted with them. So he was able
Speaker 7: to kind of figure that out based on the conversations
Speaker 7: he had with these people answering the phone, these women
Speaker 7: that he spoke to, and from there, you know, he
Speaker 7: would set up a time to come by, you know,
Speaker 7: pretending again and he was just there to look at
Speaker 7: this furniture or look at this house for sale. Sometimes
Speaker 7: it was you know, a for sale sign in the
Speaker 7: yard or something he saw and he would knock on
Speaker 7: the door and you know, asked to see the house.
Speaker 7: And he did it during the time of day when
Speaker 7: you know, if there was a husband or a boyfriend
Speaker 7: or whatnot, that they would be more than likely at work.
Speaker 7: And you know, once he kind of figured out that
Speaker 7: that was indeed the situation, he would overpower the women
Speaker 7: and rape them. And you know, he described these rapes later,
Speaker 7: some of them and real detail the extent of the
Speaker 7: things he did with these these women, and sometimes you
Speaker 7: know it was it was younger girls too, you know,
Speaker 7: young young teenagers. He was doing these things too, and
Speaker 7: he had a really long history of doing this, so
Speaker 7: left a lot of a lot of victims in his wake,
Speaker 7: not just the murder victims, but the rape victims as well.
Speaker 11: Absolutely, he talks about later about estimating these damage destroyed
Speaker 11: about one hundred people. Now you talk about that. He
Speaker 11: also after this interview where he says he's done this
Speaker 11: maybe fifteen rapes. After his interview, he says he would
Speaker 11: like to bring authorities to the remains of the other
Speaker 11: victims that they had not discussed. But you say, overnight
Speaker 11: something changed. Who did he see and and now WA's
Speaker 11: his attitude towards helping authorities.
Speaker 7: Yeah, he had mentioned that there were these undiscovered ones
Speaker 7: that he would lead him to. But the you know
Speaker 7: Gary Terry, who was in charge of this again, you
Speaker 7: know this, these investigators have been working really long hours
Speaker 7: on this case for a real long time, putting in overtime,
Speaker 7: so much overtime over and over again. And now that
Speaker 7: they had their had their guy finally, you know, it
Speaker 7: was just kind of a normal reaction. I guess to
Speaker 7: relax a little bit, and you know, they were so
Speaker 7: worn down he figured, well, you know, we can continue
Speaker 7: this in the morning after we get a little bit
Speaker 7: of pressed to sleep, you know. But overnight the public
Speaker 7: defenders there in Hillsborough County learned of that he had
Speaker 7: been you know, taken in the custody and they came
Speaker 7: and visited him and uh and talked to him. So
Speaker 7: when when Terry and his folks tried to start back
Speaker 7: up again where they left off, Bobby refused to talk
Speaker 7: to them, you know, based on discussions with the boat defenders.
Speaker 11: So they end up with how many confirmed bodies through
Speaker 11: confession and forensics and will bodies. How many they are
Speaker 11: they looking at before we talk about, of course the
Speaker 11: ensuing motions and delays and appeals and so before we
Speaker 11: talk about that, how many do they have him dead
Speaker 11: to rights on?
Speaker 12: Well, they have him linked to eat eat the state murders,
Speaker 12: you know, plus the abduction and the rape of Lisa McVay,
Speaker 12: you know, the seventeen year old that got away.
Speaker 11: Now, how do police proceed I mean obviously they think
Speaker 11: obviously he's hinted and intimated it or other other victims.
Speaker 11: You talk about getting a psychological evaluation as part of
Speaker 11: the court process as well. Again you talk about and
Speaker 11: with this book your research his past. So tell us
Speaker 11: about the psychological evaluation and then before you talk about
Speaker 11: what they find out in terms of his past.
Speaker 7: Yeah. So, you know, various medical experts had these evaluations
Speaker 7: of him and came to different opinions about what was
Speaker 7: wrong with him and why he had done the things
Speaker 7: he did. And you know, and of course all this
Speaker 7: is lanted one way or the other. You know, the
Speaker 7: ones that are linked to the prosecution, of course, are
Speaker 7: trying to get these opinions that that that Bobby Joe,
Speaker 7: you know, although he may have had some some brain
Speaker 7: trauma and whatnot in has passed that he's still at
Speaker 7: the time he committed these things, he's still he knew
Speaker 7: what he was doing was wrong. And you know, the
Speaker 7: the experts link to the defense, of course want wanted
Speaker 7: to be able to have these opinions that know, what
Speaker 7: his condition prevented him from from knowing that he was
Speaker 7: doing wrong and he kind to help himself and these
Speaker 7: sorts of things. So so there were different opinions that
Speaker 7: were offered from different psychologists. You know, one went opine
Speaker 7: that Bobby Joe suffered from sexual sadism that caused his
Speaker 7: criminal behavior and his brain disorder, and that he had
Speaker 7: this this medical condition that kind of caused him to
Speaker 7: enter this kind of altered state of consciousness when he
Speaker 7: committed these crimes. And you know, another psychologist concluded that
Speaker 7: he had bipolars kosis in an organic personality syndrome due
Speaker 7: to brain damage because they found out that Bobby Joe
Speaker 7: had a pretty extensive history of different injuries to his
Speaker 7: head as he was growing up in his background, including
Speaker 7: when he was, you know, a young boy, and as
Speaker 7: he got older, he had he had a lot of
Speaker 7: these and different reasons and including a major one when
Speaker 7: he was older and shortly after he was married. Actually
Speaker 7: in nineteen seventy four, he had a motorcycle accent early
Speaker 7: bad motorcycle accident. His car basically or sorry, his motorcycle.
Speaker 7: He's collided with a car when he was going about
Speaker 7: sixty five miles an hour and the collision sent him
Speaker 7: flying over the car and caused a lot of damage
Speaker 7: to his leg would also do his head, and he
Speaker 7: was unconscious, knocked unconscious and remained remained in the hospital
Speaker 7: for several months after that, and you know, the people
Speaker 7: that were close to him, including his wife, testified about
Speaker 7: how after this motorcycle accident he really seemed to change.
Speaker 7: After that. There was a lot of noted behavioral changes
Speaker 7: to him following that. So there was quite a bit
Speaker 7: of things in his background there from a physical psychological
Speaker 7: standpoint to be considered and looking at these crimes he committed,
Speaker 7: and you know, and on top of that, they had
Speaker 7: also apart from the kind of the physical trauma, the
Speaker 7: brain trauma, hit trauma, those things. Apart from that, they
Speaker 7: also had psychological issues based on his upbringing and his
Speaker 7: relationship with his mother. You know, it seems like the
Speaker 7: serial killers seemed to have these kind of strange relationships
Speaker 7: with their mothers times and have mummy issues going on,
Speaker 7: and it seems to certainly seems to be the case
Speaker 7: with Bobby Joe as well, based on the history there.
Speaker 11: You talked about. Another physical thing that created humiliation for
Speaker 11: him and shame was that he developed in large breasts
Speaker 11: during puberty. He produced abnormal amounts of estrogen, so he
Speaker 11: had breast when he was a young boy, and to
Speaker 11: the point where they removed six pounds of excess tissue
Speaker 11: from his chest area. And you also talked about his
Speaker 11: relationship with his mother, but also just his attitude talking
Speaker 11: about his mother in terms of being a bitch or
Speaker 11: a slot. So he had some Again, it seemed to
Speaker 11: carry on into his attitude towards women in general, at
Speaker 11: least as we'll see as this story develops. At the
Speaker 11: same time, it started with at least his view on
Speaker 11: m about his mother and boyfriend. So tell us a
Speaker 11: little bit about what he had said later about the
Speaker 11: relationship and his mother's behavior as well.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so his his father had was absent from his
Speaker 7: life largely, and so it was it was him and
Speaker 7: his mother. And his mother worked in the name of
Speaker 7: it excuse me at the moment, but his mother had
Speaker 7: worked a you know kind of a bar, kind of
Speaker 7: a not a topless bar, but you know kind of
Speaker 7: a bar where the the waitresses and bartenders are a
Speaker 7: little more friendly, I guess with the customers and things.
Speaker 7: And so she worked at one of these kind of places, uh,
Speaker 7: and would end up bringing different men home all the
Speaker 7: all the time. And Bobby came to resent this quite
Speaker 7: a bit. He felt like he is is really ship
Speaker 7: with his mom was being displaced by these all these
Speaker 7: various men that she was bringing home, and he really
Speaker 7: grew to resent her and the way that she dressed
Speaker 7: and the way she flirted with these strangers all the
Speaker 7: time and brought them home, and you know, really it
Speaker 7: really affected him and he came to resent her quite
Speaker 7: a bit. And this was something that was pointed to
Speaker 7: later on a trial that he had, you know, projected
Speaker 7: these feelings for his mother. He had then projected them
Speaker 7: onto the woman that he was killing, his resentment and
Speaker 7: things onto them.
Speaker 11: What we do find, too, is that that he has
Speaker 11: some normalcy in his life in terms of at least outwardly.
Speaker 11: He gets married and in January nineteen seventy four war
Speaker 11: gets married. But he also enlisted in the army in
Speaker 11: nineteen seventy two. What's his army record? Like, what does
Speaker 11: that consist?
Speaker 7: Of his holy record? From what I recall, he I'm
Speaker 7: sure enlisted in the army. He was ultimately not honorably discharged.
Speaker 7: He was dishonorably discharged or not fulfilling his duties as
Speaker 7: he was supposed to. And you know what coincided with
Speaker 7: that was this motorcycle accident, which really changed his personality
Speaker 7: quite a bit. Was described by his wife and some
Speaker 7: other folks. So he you know, he didn't have an
Speaker 7: exemplary enlistment. He was he was dishonorably discharged.
Speaker 11: Ultimately, he has a relationships to you talk about the
Speaker 11: he's working as an X ray technician. So there is
Speaker 11: the fullest, full investigation. They do speak to people that
Speaker 11: were around before this killing spree begins to again to
Speaker 11: get a picture of this guy's behavior and how he
Speaker 11: could have developed into the serial killer that he became.
Speaker 11: They do talk to some people just for that anecdotal
Speaker 11: story about what he was like and what he exhibited
Speaker 11: in terms of his behavior.
Speaker 7: Yeah, they did. They talk to a lot of people
Speaker 7: that he had worked with before, and you know, they
Speaker 7: turned out that he had worked as an X ray
Speaker 7: technician at different hospitals around South Florida, including in Tampa.
Speaker 7: And they talked to a lot of the people that
Speaker 7: he worked with at these hospitals and seemed to be
Speaker 7: that some of the calm and threads to these interviews
Speaker 7: were that, for one thing, he seemed to resent female
Speaker 7: authority for sure, and then another one was that he
Speaker 7: talked a lot about sex or trying to get with
Speaker 7: different girls or women and the things he would like
Speaker 7: to do with them sexually and things of that nature.
Speaker 7: So those are some of the common common threads they found,
Speaker 7: and he also did some inappropriate things with some of
Speaker 7: the patients at times as well. But you know, other
Speaker 7: people he had worked with before and some supervisors had
Speaker 7: described him as being a you know, seeming like a
Speaker 7: you know, pretty decent kind of guy in some respects
Speaker 7: and being a good worker. So it wasn't all negative
Speaker 7: recollections from the the people that had known him.
Speaker 11: Right now, meanwhile, you take us back to January eighteen,
Speaker 11: nineteen eighty five, Detective Baker gets a call from a
Speaker 11: Sergeant Price, Tampa Police Department. They had been contacted by
Speaker 11: an inmate so named Schidler. So there's some letters anyway
Speaker 11: tell us what Bobby Joe Long is up to according
Speaker 11: to this inmate, and what their response is.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so when Bobby was being held, you know, he
Speaker 7: befriended another inmate in there, this Jay Schiler that you mentioned,
Speaker 7: and had tried to come up with the escape plan
Speaker 7: essentially is what he was plotting. And he confided in
Speaker 7: Schiler and tried to get him to get in on
Speaker 7: this and help him out with this plan he had,
Speaker 7: and what he was going to do was offer to
Speaker 7: lead detectives, including Gary Terry and you know, some of
Speaker 7: his main investigators that have been chiefly involved in the case,
Speaker 7: to lead them to some other victims. Uh, and that
Speaker 7: hadn't been discovered yet. And you know, he knew that
Speaker 7: if he did that that you know, they would be
Speaker 7: more than willing to go out there with him. And
Speaker 7: his plan was once he got out there, he would
Speaker 7: have had somebody on the outside would have concealed a
Speaker 7: gun for him, a slot off shotgun under under a
Speaker 7: bridge at a particular location. And you know, once he
Speaker 7: got out there with the detectives, he would be able
Speaker 7: to get a hold that gun and overpower them and
Speaker 7: kill them and get away. So he had he concocted
Speaker 7: this whole escape plan. And then you know, Schidler ended
Speaker 7: up alerting a private investigator he knew about it, and
Speaker 7: that investigator than contacted the police spotted.
Speaker 11: Yeah, and then so they discover what's going to be
Speaker 11: what his plan is. Now you take us to as
Speaker 11: you say, Long's first Bobby Joe Long's first trial. This
Speaker 11: is April nineteen eighty five, only in Dade County and
Speaker 11: this is for the killing of. Tell us who this
Speaker 11: is for the killing of. And you you have the
Speaker 11: fiber experts Michael Malone and prosecutor is Phil Van Allen.
Speaker 11: So tell us what this first, what this murder trial
Speaker 11: is for?
Speaker 7: All right? So, yeah, the first trial was out there
Speaker 7: in Deep City. You said this was for Virginia Johnson, right,
Speaker 7: which was actually she was actually one of the later
Speaker 7: victims found, one of the last ones that was that
Speaker 7: was found. But her trial ended up being the first
Speaker 7: one to go there in Dade City. And it, uh,
Speaker 7: it didn't take long for the verdict to come in
Speaker 7: once the once the trial started, it was just just
Speaker 7: a week before the jury came to their verdict and
Speaker 7: the delierations weren't long either, not even an hour to
Speaker 7: find him guilty of Johnson's murder.
Speaker 11: And Florida's death penalty states. So what was that? Was
Speaker 11: it a death penalty case?
Speaker 7: Yes, so so he was. He was found guilty of
Speaker 7: first deary murder, uh, unanimously, first degree murder. And so
Speaker 7: subsequent to that, the judge you know, follows all the
Speaker 7: jury's recommendation and in sentence along to death. So that
Speaker 7: was his first first death sentence was for the murder
Speaker 7: of Johnson, and.
Speaker 11: Then he proceeds to not long after July twenty fifth,
Speaker 11: nineteen eighty six, he gets a death sentence in the
Speaker 11: Michelle Simms case.
Speaker 7: Right, yeah, In in July eighty six is when he
Speaker 7: gets for death penalty in the Michelle Sims case, and
Speaker 7: in you know, in the meantime, there was a deal
Speaker 7: that was broken and I agreed to for the you know,
Speaker 7: the other cases that he was involved in. So what
Speaker 7: ultimately ended up happening was that he pled guilty to
Speaker 7: eight of the killings and then also to the abduction
Speaker 7: and rape of Lisa McVeigh, pursuing it to this plea agreement.
Speaker 7: And the reason why he wanted to do the plea
Speaker 7: agreement was to avoid the death penalty as much as possible.
Speaker 7: I want to get a death penalty in all these cases.
Speaker 7: The more death penalties you get, harder it is to
Speaker 7: get them all reversed, among other things. So he entered
Speaker 7: in this agreement to get my sentences instead on these
Speaker 7: on these killings. So he got ended up being twenty
Speaker 7: six white sentences amounting to pursuing to the agreement for
Speaker 7: these other all these other murders.
Speaker 11: Right, you talk about the same time that the cb
Speaker 11: CBS television, they have a report on serial killers, and
Speaker 11: they interview him and he recounts many of the murders
Speaker 11: he committed. Tell us what he says, the gist of
Speaker 11: what he says in terms of trying to rationalize or
Speaker 11: comprehend what he did the crimes he did.
Speaker 7: Well. So, you know, one of the interesting things he
Speaker 7: mentioned in that interview was the way he described it.
Speaker 7: It wasn't he didn't describe it as something he planned typically.
Speaker 7: It was more a spontaneous thing that just kind of occurred.
Speaker 7: And he described as like this urge that just kind
Speaker 7: of built up until he kind of resistant anymore. So
Speaker 7: he might just be going out to do something else,
Speaker 7: to go to the grocery store, to go play racquetball,
Speaker 7: he liked to play racketball, something like that, and he
Speaker 7: might come across some girl and you know, he would
Speaker 7: get the urge and he wouldn't be able to resist it.
Speaker 7: So that's the way he described it to this the
Speaker 7: CBS interview. And you know, he went on to talk
Speaker 7: about the way he went about these these killings, these
Speaker 7: rapes and killings and always kind of followed the same
Speaker 7: sort of pattern, he said. He said he'd see him
Speaker 7: walking down the street and then it would be like ABCD.
Speaker 7: He would pull him over, they'd get in, he'd drive away,
Speaker 7: and then stop somewhere, pull out the NYE or his
Speaker 7: gun whatever he happened to have at the time, and
Speaker 7: tie him up, you know, so he could have a
Speaker 7: complete control over him, and then he would assault him
Speaker 7: and kill him after that, and kind of always followed
Speaker 7: the same sort of pattern over and over again, you know,
Speaker 7: including the deception to get him in the car initially
Speaker 7: and then going from there.
Speaker 11: He also talked about in that interview that he that
Speaker 11: these maybe said maybe a couple two people had families
Speaker 11: that gave a damn about them, but the rest of
Speaker 11: them were just he said, sluts out on the street.
Speaker 11: And he said that he picked you know, he said
Speaker 11: some of these people wouldn't be missed. And then he
Speaker 11: talked about Lisa McVeigh being an anomaly from his normal
Speaker 11: victim profile. Tell us about that and why that likely
Speaker 11: was quite true and really did aid in her survival.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Well, unlike a lot of his victims, Lisa wasn't
Speaker 7: She wasn't a prostitute, She wasn't someone working at these
Speaker 7: nude bars or these clubs. She wasn't someone involved in
Speaker 7: that whole Nebraska Avenue street scene. So to Bobby Joe,
Speaker 7: you know, she was in a different category. He didn't
Speaker 7: associate her with these kind of sluts or whatnot and
Speaker 7: people that wouldn't be missed. She was. She was different,
Speaker 7: so that, you know, I'm sure that helped her in
Speaker 7: of itself and enabled her to kind of take on
Speaker 7: this almost this girlfriend kind of role that she took
Speaker 7: on with him during the abduction, which you know, allowed
Speaker 7: her to ultimately to survive it. So he certainly, he
Speaker 7: certainly brought that up and you know, mentioned that as
Speaker 7: a reason why he decided to let her go. Is
Speaker 7: that she wasn't like the other one. She was different.
Speaker 11: Yeah, now she gets to eventually you talk about the
Speaker 11: trials and then many of the motions and reasons for appeal.
Speaker 11: Maybe you can briefly summarize some of that until we
Speaker 11: get to November twenty, November two, nineteen eighty eight, where
Speaker 11: Lisa McVeigh testifies and we get the entire story of
Speaker 11: the jury, gets the entire story in the world, gets
Speaker 11: the entire story at that testimony. But what are some
Speaker 11: of the basic issues that keep cropping up to have
Speaker 11: we get to the point where there's trials for the
Speaker 11: Virginia Johnson case, in the Virginia John's in case.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so one of the big issues for these appeals
Speaker 7: was the interview when Long confessed to the killings of
Speaker 7: all these women and the fact that before he did
Speaker 7: that he had mentioned that, you know, I think I
Speaker 7: need an attorney or maybe I should have an attorney,
Speaker 7: and the fact that you know, the the interrogators at
Speaker 7: that point didn't just immediately stop questioning. They kept pressing
Speaker 7: forward with it. And so that was a big issue,
Speaker 7: you know, this violation of his rights in that respect,
Speaker 7: and so he was able to get get a lot
Speaker 7: of traction with the courts with that as an appellate issue.
Speaker 7: And then you know, another ship that came up is
Speaker 7: whether he had sufficient representation by his counsel. So that
Speaker 7: was another thing that he used in the appeals in
Speaker 7: order to get you know, convictions overturned and get retrials
Speaker 7: and you know, end up having you know, several trials
Speaker 7: for the same the same murder. You know, as you
Speaker 7: mentioned the Virginia Johnson case and you know, those are
Speaker 7: those are detailed more in the in the in the
Speaker 7: book itself.
Speaker 11: Yeah, you talk about too that it's a conviction in
Speaker 11: the Michelle Simms case was one that they had pursued
Speaker 11: because of just more evidence that pointed to him. So
Speaker 11: they they do go with a stronger case obviously, and
Speaker 11: and plea bargain some other ones might that they might
Speaker 11: have some difficulty with in the end. How many years
Speaker 11: did it take to get to the point where he
Speaker 11: was finally convicted and given the death penalty? And and
Speaker 11: also can you tell us a little bit about Lisa
Speaker 11: mcveigh's testimony what it did for her? And you talk
Speaker 11: about PostScript about Lisa McVay as well, So tell us
Speaker 11: a little bit about Lisa mcvay's testimony, and then how
Speaker 11: long it takes from the murder itself in the eighty
Speaker 11: four to some resolution I guess finally in this.
Speaker 7: Case, Well, Lisa testified in eighty eight and she talked,
Speaker 7: you know, obviously she told the facts about getting abducted
Speaker 7: and things, and she was asked about why she hadn't
Speaker 7: tried to get away from him at various times, and
Speaker 7: she explained that she didn't want to put him off basically,
Speaker 7: you know, she didn't want to anger him or provoke
Speaker 7: him anyway, So she said, you just wanted to cooperate,
Speaker 7: and you know, hoping that that would give her the
Speaker 7: best chance of surviving. And she was asked, you know,
Speaker 7: about how he had acted at various time times during
Speaker 7: the abduction. And you know, she was asked if he
Speaker 7: seemed like a sick person, like a wacko, and she
Speaker 7: said yes, and that he had one time told her
Speaker 7: that he didn't know why he was doing it, why
Speaker 7: he was doing the things he was doing to doing
Speaker 7: to her. Maybe he was going nuts, and and she
Speaker 7: admitted that as well. And you know, the big reason
Speaker 7: why she wanted to testify too was to prevent him
Speaker 7: from being able to do this to anybody else. That
Speaker 7: was a big motivating factor for her. So she she
Speaker 7: did testify, and you know, following the various trials and
Speaker 7: appeals and retrials, he it was ultimately finally the death
Speaker 7: sentence was upheld. And this is the early nineties ninety
Speaker 7: two at Florida Supreme Court upheld his descendants in the
Speaker 7: Sims case and in the Johnson case that was ultimately
Speaker 7: upheld as well. I guess it would have been later
Speaker 7: on in the nineties, trying to remember the exact day,
Speaker 7: but it was, you know, it was well after the murders,
Speaker 7: so it was it was years and years in the
Speaker 7: long long process before he was finally affirmed for these killings.
Speaker 7: I guess it was about two decades or two decades
Speaker 7: before he was actually finally once and for all convicted
Speaker 7: of the of the murders in twenty fourteen and stretching
Speaker 7: all the way into twenty sixteen. You know, very recently
Speaker 7: the appeals and whether the trial court had had acted
Speaker 7: properly in doing the things that it had, you know,
Speaker 7: it allowed in and evidence and things, so very long
Speaker 7: drawn out legal process as these death penalty cases seem
Speaker 7: to involve, but this one, you know, more than more
Speaker 7: than a lot of others, certainly. Yeah, and also so
Speaker 7: you know today Bobby Joe, you know, he hasn't had
Speaker 7: his execution date yet. He's still he's still alive. He's
Speaker 7: still on death row in Florida.
Speaker 11: You talk about that as well, But first let's talk
Speaker 11: about somebody like me, Lisa McVeigh. What did this whole
Speaker 11: experience motivate her to do in terms of her career path.
Speaker 7: Well, she actually end it up becoming a deputy sheriff
Speaker 7: with the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office. So the very agency
Speaker 7: that helped her and you know, brought her abductor to justice,
Speaker 7: I'll bring her abductor to justice. She ended up going
Speaker 7: to work for that agency, and a lot of her
Speaker 7: work has been with as a as an advocate for
Speaker 7: children abused children, and she's you know, she she's taken
Speaker 7: it to use this really dark time from her life
Speaker 7: and this very negative experience, and and and because by
Speaker 7: using it as as a motivation other victims and you know,
Speaker 7: try to try to bring some light out of out
Speaker 7: of the darkness that she experienced.
Speaker 11: Now we go to the Union Correctional Center in Rayford
Speaker 11: Floor and you talk about that Bobby Geelong has got
Speaker 11: a lot of women pen pals, as you write in
Speaker 11: the book. Tell us a little bit about what this
Speaker 11: Litharia was doing in there. And before we talk about
Speaker 11: this very very cryptic thing that was said by again
Speaker 11: one of the most infamous infamous serial killers of all
Speaker 11: while he and Long shared a sell or at least
Speaker 11: shared an institution, tell us a little bit about what
Speaker 11: Bobby Geelong is up to while behind bars.
Speaker 7: Well, his appetite for these women certainly didn't seem to
Speaker 7: diminish because he's you know, while he's been in there,
Speaker 7: he reached out to women different ways that he could,
Speaker 7: and including having things posted on the internet. You know,
Speaker 7: this this this man who was the classified ad rapist
Speaker 7: ended up posting his own classified ads essentially on the internet.
Speaker 7: And you know that the things he posted are included
Speaker 7: in the book. But essentially he's you know, soliciting women
Speaker 7: at all different ages for sexual interests that he has.
Speaker 7: And you know, women have responded to this, and as
Speaker 7: you said, he's certainly had a lot of pin piles,
Speaker 7: a lot of women female pin piles during his time there.
Speaker 7: So it's you know, it seems it seems really hard
Speaker 7: to imagine that women, knowing what he has done, would
Speaker 7: would want to correspond and communicate with him about these
Speaker 7: kind of things. But they do. Yeah, and he's been
Speaker 7: you know, definitely interesting and having those kind of correspondent relationships,
Speaker 7: sexual relationships, so to speak. So those have been ongoing.
Speaker 11: Now you talk about before Ted Bundy's execution January eighty nine,
Speaker 11: he befriended long while they were doing time together in Florida.
Speaker 11: What did Buddy Bundy tell an FBI agent about Long?
Speaker 7: Yeah, So, based on whatever conversations Bundy had with Long,
Speaker 7: certainly made an impression on Bundy, because he did mention
Speaker 7: to an agent that had assisted the task force there
Speaker 7: when they were investigating all these murders. Bundy, you mentioned
Speaker 7: to that FBI agent he said, he said, you know,
Speaker 7: it's a good thing you got them when you get
Speaker 7: when you did. It's lucky you got him when you did,
Speaker 7: because otherwise his numbers would have surpassed mind, you know,
Speaker 7: obviously referring to his murder victims, and Bundy had quite
Speaker 7: a few himself, So for him to say something like
Speaker 7: that certainly tends to give you a little bit of
Speaker 7: a pause. Yeah.
Speaker 11: You know, the thing is is when you can impress
Speaker 11: a guy like Ted Bundy, which again has had impressed
Speaker 11: everybody in law enforcement and the world with his ghastly crimes.
Speaker 11: When Ted Bundy did reach out to law enforcement another
Speaker 11: time as well, at least, but it seems quite telling
Speaker 11: that he seems to be quite impressed with the potential
Speaker 11: of Bobby Joe A Lung.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and you know, that's actually something that Gary Terry
Speaker 7: remarks about too, that if they hadn't got Bobby Joe
Speaker 7: when they did, if you know, if he hadn't made
Speaker 7: this this error in letting Lisa McVeigh go, you know,
Speaker 7: if they hang out that lucky break and were able
Speaker 7: to catch him through that, you know, Gary Terry remarked that,
Speaker 7: you know, there's there's no teal on what his victim
Speaker 7: count would have been. He would have just kept doing
Speaker 7: it because you know, he certainly didn't feel any kind
Speaker 7: of remorse for what he had done. He never really
Speaker 7: expressed any true remorse for the for the killings and things,
Speaker 7: so he just would have kept doing it. You know,
Speaker 7: the number would have just kept going up, so very
Speaker 7: much in line what what Bundy had mentioned as well.
Speaker 11: What was his behavior like at trial, because again it
Speaker 11: seemed to be that there was a couple of things
Speaker 11: going on or at different times, So tell us what
Speaker 11: behavior he exhibited during that trial.
Speaker 7: H Well, you know, at various times during the trial
Speaker 7: long could behavior could change from from just kind of
Speaker 7: being some one and sitting there to having you know, outbursts,
Speaker 7: and you know, there were some occasions where he really
Speaker 7: exploded and made threats toward the prosecutor or or whoever,
Speaker 7: and and really showed this kind of checkle and hide
Speaker 7: sort of personality going on there. So you know, he
Speaker 7: he you could you could certainly see from that how
Speaker 7: he could deceive these women and you know, fool them
Speaker 7: into thinking he's this nice, gentle kind of guy, and
Speaker 7: then of course he has this hidden monster inside that
Speaker 7: that that that's unleashed later on, just as as as
Speaker 7: they saw at different times in his courtroom.
Speaker 11: Debet, Yeah, absolutely, Now there when you talk about I
Speaker 11: would think that Florida where I thought Florida would have
Speaker 11: a quicker route to the death penalty to execution. Why
Speaker 11: is it just because he's just finally got through with
Speaker 11: the twenty two years all of the appeals and motions
Speaker 11: that he could possibly have have exercised as his rights.
Speaker 11: Is it now that there is some weight for a
Speaker 11: date execution date for him or what is the climate
Speaker 11: in Florida right now regarding the death penalty?
Speaker 7: Well there, you know, fairly recently in Florida there there
Speaker 7: was a lot of challenges to the death penalty and
Speaker 7: the statute and how the death penalty could be imposed,
Speaker 7: and it was it turned out that it was it
Speaker 7: was deemed to be improper for unconstitutional by the Supreme Court,
Speaker 7: so the Florida legislature had to go back and rewrite
Speaker 7: the statutes for this and how a criminal defendant can
Speaker 7: be given the death penalty, how the definiteity can be imposed.
Speaker 7: So all that took a while to get sorted out.
Speaker 7: It finally has been, but it certainly affected how pending
Speaker 7: death penalty cases were being handled, how they were whether
Speaker 7: they were moving forward or not, because you know, there
Speaker 7: were a lot of challenges being made by the all
Speaker 7: the people on death row, and that certainly disrupted things.
Speaker 7: But it's it's also it's also taken traditionally, it's taken
Speaker 7: a while even before that. You know, a lot of
Speaker 7: these death row inmates spend many many years on there,
Speaker 7: some of them for decades. I don't remember off the
Speaker 7: top of my head what the average death row inmate
Speaker 7: stay is before they're actually executed in Florida. But it's
Speaker 7: pretty lengthy. I mean, it's it's a pretty lengthy process.
Speaker 7: So certainly Bobby Joe Long has been on there longer
Speaker 7: than a lot of them have. And the explanation for
Speaker 7: that is I'm really not sure why his case has
Speaker 7: been there for so long. I mean, he certainly had
Speaker 7: these appeals drag on for a long time, but he
Speaker 7: still hasn't had a death weren't signed yet for him.
Speaker 7: He doesn't have a have an execution date set, so
Speaker 7: you know the question of when that would occur, it's
Speaker 7: you know, you really, your guests is about as good
Speaker 7: as mine as far as that goes, really just kind
Speaker 7: of depends on when the the governor decides that it's
Speaker 7: it's time.
Speaker 11: Do you think in your opinion from everything you've seen,
Speaker 11: because you cover murder trials in Florida and so you've
Speaker 11: seen a lot of what goes on, do you think
Speaker 11: with all the natural opponents to the death penalty on
Speaker 11: one side, and then all the motions and appeals and
Speaker 11: extra care and caution that's afforded somebody that's been given
Speaker 11: the death penalty in Florida, do you think it's worth
Speaker 11: it In terms of this twenty two years, we would
Speaker 11: talk about nineteen ninety seven where they reversed the first
Speaker 11: degree murder. They've reversed a first degree murder conviction after
Speaker 11: Lisa mcveigh's testimony. You know that was not sufficient for
Speaker 11: first degree, So that was an acquittal, you know, twenty
Speaker 11: two years. Is there is maybe the the attempt to
Speaker 11: have the death penalty just delay everything. Is it really
Speaker 11: worth it in your estimation in terms of overall.
Speaker 7: Man that that is such a such a loaded question,
Speaker 7: so to speak. You know, it's it's you know, there's
Speaker 7: there's good arguments on both sides, really, but it certainly
Speaker 7: seems like that the victims or the families of the
Speaker 7: victims shouldn't have to be shouldn't have to wait that
Speaker 7: long for justice. You know, you see examples where these
Speaker 7: family families wait for so long that some of the
Speaker 7: family members die while these death row inmates are still alive,
Speaker 7: still living there, you know, waiting for their execution date.
Speaker 7: So it seems like there's something wrong with it in
Speaker 7: that respect. You know, certainly, you know, we have to
Speaker 7: protect the rights of individuals in this country, make sure
Speaker 7: they have a fair trial and that we're not executing
Speaker 7: innocent people. But on the other hand, it's such a
Speaker 7: huge use of resources over the years battling these things,
Speaker 7: and you know, that's so that's one of the arguments,
Speaker 7: of course, is is it better just to give them
Speaker 7: all life sentences? And you know, because it's ultimately cheaper
Speaker 7: that way. And really, I mean it's such a it
Speaker 7: just boils down to people's opinions a lot. I think,
Speaker 7: you know, some of the you know, some of the
Speaker 7: victims' families think it's better for one of these defendants
Speaker 7: to rot in jail so to speak, you know, live
Speaker 7: the rest of their years in the small cell. But
Speaker 7: others want to see an eye for an eye kind
Speaker 7: of justice, you know, and see them actually pay the
Speaker 7: ultimate price and be put to death.
Speaker 11: Yeah. And whether I believe in the death penalty, which
Speaker 11: I don't believe in it philosophically for other reasons, but
Speaker 11: I certainly do understand. I think I can understand how
Speaker 11: I would be asking for it, demanding it for it
Speaker 11: in these cases having endured again, I think part of it,
Speaker 11: as you mentioned, is just takes so long. I think
Speaker 11: having to have retrials can only make the victims' families
Speaker 11: believe that there's something wrong with the judicial system, and
Speaker 11: not to say pro or con, just to say there's
Speaker 11: something wrong with the delay of justice.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, I think all of this in a sense,
Speaker 7: I'd like to see it kind of move forward a
Speaker 7: lot quicker and just be a judge jury execution or
Speaker 7: bam bam bam kind of process. But you know, on
Speaker 7: the other hand, it is important to make sure that
Speaker 7: that things are being done properly, in the police are
Speaker 7: putting these cases together properly, that the evidence is being
Speaker 7: properly found and and put forth, in that prosecutors are
Speaker 7: doing their jobs properly as well. So you know, there
Speaker 7: there are instances of abuse, you know, both in both
Speaker 7: in in law enforcement and also in prosecutors prosecuting the
Speaker 7: crimes after the perpetrators are caught, So it is important
Speaker 7: to have that as well. But certainly in our gut,
Speaker 7: it certainly is a lot of times there's this this
Speaker 7: wish or desire that things could be expedited so much
Speaker 7: quicker than they are.
Speaker 11: Yeah, certainly just for the just, for the for the
Speaker 11: survivors and the victims' families, and yeah, I my my
Speaker 11: heart it goes out to those people, certainly every time
Speaker 11: I read these stories. I want to thank you very
Speaker 11: much JT. Hunter for coming on and talking about Deadly
Speaker 11: Deception true story of Tampa serial killer Bobby Joe Long.
Speaker 11: It's been a pleasure as always, Thank you very much.
Speaker 7: JT.
Speaker 11: Hope to talk to you again real soon, thank you
Speaker 11: very much.
Speaker 7: Thanks again. It's as always it's great to come on
Speaker 7: here and talk about these things with you, and you know,
Speaker 7: it's too bad the subject matter is as grim it
Speaker 7: is as it is, but the discussions are always very
Speaker 7: interesting and engaging, So thanks again for having me on.
Speaker 11: Thank you very much. We have a great night, good night,
Speaker 11: thank you.