Speaker 1: It's the Opperman Report.
Speaker 2: Join Digital Forensic Investigator and PI at Opperman for an
Speaker 2: in depth discussion of conspiracy theories, strategy of New World
Speaker 2: Order resistance, hi profile court cases in the news, and
Speaker 2: interviews with expert guests and authors on these topics and more.
Speaker 2: It's the Opperman Report, and now here is investigator at Opperman.
Speaker 3: Okay, welcome to the Opperman Report. I'm your host, private
Speaker 3: investigator at Opperman. I'm the president of Opperman Investigations and
Speaker 3: Digital Forensic Consulting and you can find a link to
Speaker 3: my work at email revealer dot com. Get a copy
Speaker 3: of my book there as well. The show is brought
Speaker 3: to you by gettheit dot com. Get the T life
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Speaker 3: dot Com check that stuff out. Okay, this is a
Speaker 3: show that has been in the making for years. I
Speaker 3: contacted our guests, David Thibodeau. I was probably three years
Speaker 3: ago because I had Clive Doyle on the show. These
Speaker 3: are the guys who wore branch Davidians. They lived there
Speaker 3: in the house, the compound they call it, in Waco,
Speaker 3: where the FBI came and shot them up, held them
Speaker 3: hostage for how many days? Forty days whatever, and then
Speaker 3: then burned them alive.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: And our friend David Thibodeau here is his book, is
Speaker 3: Waco a Survivor's Story, And it's the subject of that
Speaker 3: documentary series you're singing right now though, the mini series
Speaker 3: on Paramountain Network about Waco.
Speaker 4: This is the guy. This is the guy, David Thibbdau. David,
Speaker 4: are you there?
Speaker 1: Hey? How you doing? I am?
Speaker 4: Thank you so much man. You know, besides Waco, who
Speaker 4: is David Tibbadau.
Speaker 3: If I just ran into you at a soccer game
Speaker 3: or something like that or in a bar and say, hey, man,
Speaker 3: who's David.
Speaker 1: Tibbdeau, I'd need the guy up on the stage playing
Speaker 1: the drums for whatever band was playing at that bar
Speaker 1: that night.
Speaker 4: Bro, you're a full time musician.
Speaker 1: No, but I used to play three nights a week now,
Speaker 1: which a couple a couple of Saturdays a month. And
Speaker 1: as I get older, that's fine. Rock and roll is
Speaker 1: a young man's game, man, And I still love to
Speaker 1: do it. I still do it, but it just takes
Speaker 1: a lot out of me now, No, I hear you.
Speaker 1: I still love it. I'm still you know. It's it's
Speaker 1: what you do. You've got to be crazy to be
Speaker 1: a musician. I mean you've give it up all of
Speaker 1: your weekends. It's you know, everyone thinks it's clear. It's
Speaker 1: not glamorous at all. You're breaking down, you're setting up.
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's actually a ridiculous profession. You got
Speaker 1: to be a little crazy. I think it's a musician.
Speaker 1: But if you are, you are you. It's something you love,
Speaker 1: it's something you were born to do and you can't
Speaker 1: help but you got to get it out.
Speaker 4: So I hear you.
Speaker 3: My cousins were in the Brett Michaels band, so really.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah yeah yeah?
Speaker 3: So uh I struggling musicians, man, even in the Bret
Speaker 3: Michael's band. You know, struggling, breaking up, you know, breaking up,
Speaker 3: setting up, putting down, you know, traveling different bars and stuff.
Speaker 4: So, you know, anyway, and you live up in Maine.
Speaker 4: Now you're married, you got kids. What's the story.
Speaker 1: No, I'm not, I'm I'm okay, boy, Well you're putting
Speaker 1: me on the fuck you I'm very I'm not that
Speaker 1: great with relationships, and so I think it's just spearing
Speaker 1: all the women out there. If I just remain single
Speaker 1: and I'm a bachelor, I guess the lifelong bacheler. I've
Speaker 1: never been able to really work it out. Of course,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of that was and I've touched
Speaker 1: a lot of anger over the years, which I settle
Speaker 1: that over quite a bit. But I got used to
Speaker 1: being alone, and I'm just happier that way, I think.
Speaker 4: Okay, I didn't mean to set you up. Now, what
Speaker 4: about how old are you?
Speaker 1: How old you'll find I'm an open book?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, how old are you?
Speaker 1: I am forty nine?
Speaker 4: Forty nine? Okay? Still young guy? Okay?
Speaker 1: Really?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, well I'm fifty five. Man, it gets forty nine.
Speaker 1: I guess that's in the eye of the beholder. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's in the eye of the holder.
Speaker 3: If that could be forty nine again, I'd do it
Speaker 3: all over, change it.
Speaker 1: All.
Speaker 3: Right, listen, thank you so much for coming on the show,
Speaker 3: especially now with all the attention you're getting from this
Speaker 3: series now what has I'm.
Speaker 1: Sorry it's taken so long, but I think that this
Speaker 1: is a really good time now to actually be on
Speaker 1: your show. And I got to say you have been
Speaker 1: so good at working with me on the schedule and
Speaker 1: getting me on the show that I just want to
Speaker 1: say I appreciate it. I do apologize it taking me
Speaker 1: this long to come on your show.
Speaker 3: Don't worry about it, don't worry about I'm just I'm
Speaker 3: happier alive. Let me tell you first of all, you know,
Speaker 3: thank god for that. Now, how did you get involved
Speaker 3: with the Branch Davidians down there in Texas? If you're
Speaker 3: from Maine's what's how that happened?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's a little different. My book tells the
Speaker 1: story of what really happened in a place called wacoed
Speaker 1: I actually called Waco's a Survivor's Story now. But that's
Speaker 1: where it's a little bit different than the series. They've
Speaker 1: changed some things around in the series, mostly because they
Speaker 1: didn't want to have a California connection. There was none
Speaker 1: time to put that in, so in the series, I
Speaker 1: meet David in Texas at a show. In reality, I
Speaker 1: met David and Steve Schneider at Guitar Center on Sunset
Speaker 1: Boulevard and they were looking at one of the electronic
Speaker 1: drum sets. I had gone into my drumsticks and they
Speaker 1: asked me if I would play it for them so
Speaker 1: they could hear, and I did. They handed me their
Speaker 1: card and they said, we're looking for a drummer. If
Speaker 1: you're interested, we love to jam with you. I'm Steve
Speaker 1: Schneider on this guy's manager. This is David Gresh, you know.
Speaker 1: And I saw the guy, David Kresh. Guy had a
Speaker 1: T shirt on and the ripped jeans and he was
Speaker 1: like being a guitarist or a musician. And then the
Speaker 1: other guy had kind of a suit on, Steve Schneider
Speaker 1: and he looked like you would be a business the
Speaker 1: business guy. And I just thought that this guy had
Speaker 1: his had his business manager with him. I thought that
Speaker 1: was pretty cool. But then I looked at the card
Speaker 1: and it said like Messiah has had said Cyrus Productions
Speaker 1: on the front in the back had had a bunch
Speaker 1: of religious scripture, Isaiah, Revelation, all these different you know, scriptures,
Speaker 1: and I just handed them the card back. I said,
Speaker 1: I'm really not looking to be in a Christian band.
Speaker 1: Guy's thanks, but you know, it's not like thing. And
Speaker 1: that just kind of said, you know, David kind of
Speaker 1: said was a little bit all over the world, like
Speaker 1: you know, Steve said that he was taught compared to religions.
Speaker 1: They talked to people all over the world, and you know,
Speaker 1: the Bible is a big part of it for them,
Speaker 1: but they related and consider themselves Christian. You know, they
Speaker 1: were more like between the Old Testament and the New
Speaker 1: Testament and everything in between. Anyway, the way that the
Speaker 1: describer was more like there was a study for them
Speaker 1: and a religion, and that that's what kind of rest
Speaker 1: upon me. Anyway. I honestly I left thinking I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna call them. But about three days later I had
Speaker 1: that card in my pocket and things weren't going so
Speaker 1: great in my life or in my band. I said,
Speaker 1: maybe those are the guys that I was supposed to meet,
Speaker 1: and I gave him a call, and so, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean that's how I met them. And then Steve would
Speaker 1: come over to my place in Hollywood and bring a
Speaker 1: few beers and we'd have a Bible study, which is
Speaker 1: really odd for me and nothing I'd done before, but
Speaker 1: I thought it to be very interesting. I mean when
Speaker 1: he opened his Bible, he had one of those half
Speaker 1: inch margin bibles, and every single page was color coded
Speaker 1: with cross references, and that blew me away. I mean
Speaker 1: it's like every page you looked at was filled with
Speaker 1: reference material that he had done on his own. And
Speaker 1: they could go through the scripture for Genesis to Revelations,
Speaker 1: flipped the Isaiah and then go to Jeremiah and show
Speaker 1: you a picture that every single prophet was talking. I'll say,
Speaker 1: be it the Kingdom of God being set up on
Speaker 1: the mountain zeon in the future, or you know, be
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit, the feminine aspect of God. There were
Speaker 1: so many different subjects. They just they seemed to know
Speaker 1: it all. Any question you had, they could go through
Speaker 1: it and show you exactly what it said. And it
Speaker 1: wasn't like they were excuse. It wasn't like it wasn't
Speaker 1: the doctor Nation or they were telling you what to think.
Speaker 1: It was like you were seeing what the book said
Speaker 1: for the first time. Because I had read the scripture.
Speaker 1: I had gone to stay to Sunday school. When I
Speaker 1: was a kid, I watched the TV preachers and I
Speaker 1: just I couldn't understand why people would send them money.
Speaker 1: What Why don't people see through some of these people
Speaker 1: on the television. It's obvious they're about money, They're not
Speaker 1: really about doing good works. I don't know, I just
Speaker 1: kind of I think I felt like I always saw
Speaker 1: through it, and with these guys, I really couldn't. They
Speaker 1: really took it seriously.
Speaker 4: Okay, what faith they really wanted to know? What faith
Speaker 4: were you brought up in?
Speaker 1: Well? I was that tice Catholic and you know my
Speaker 1: grandma that made me say my prayers and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: But I wasn't really brought up in that. My mother
Speaker 1: and my father both were just kind of, I don't know,
Speaker 1: good people, but they definitely were not religion and they
Speaker 1: didn't want to bring me up in religion. They wanted
Speaker 1: me to be able to make my own decisions when
Speaker 1: I was older without having that kind of albatross across
Speaker 1: your neck of you know, choosing the religion of your
Speaker 1: parents and kind of being closed minded to everything else
Speaker 1: because that's how you were raised I thought that was
Speaker 1: a pretty fair I'm pretty happy with them for that.
Speaker 4: And what is your faith today?
Speaker 1: Oh boy man, that's very complicated. It is. It's complicated
Speaker 1: because I believe well, the Scripture is it's a fantastic
Speaker 1: journey that I've been through with a scripture, genesis, revelation
Speaker 1: being open, the revealing of the Seven Seals. I can't
Speaker 1: diminish what I've seen. I can't diminish the experience I've
Speaker 1: been through and how it relates to the Scripture and
Speaker 1: how everything that happened during the fifty one days came
Speaker 1: alive in the book. So that's always going to be
Speaker 1: a part of me. But I don't limit myself to
Speaker 1: just one way of thinking. I study a lot of
Speaker 1: archaeology that's going on. I always want to see if
Speaker 1: the findings in Israel are true or not, or they're
Speaker 1: comparable to the book. It seems like there's a lot
Speaker 1: of time chronologies that the book talks about that aren't
Speaker 1: true or hasn't can't, or have not been proven yet
Speaker 1: from archaeological studies. So I study that. I study some science,
Speaker 1: a little bit of everything's Buddhism I highlight to touch
Speaker 1: on different subjects. So it's hard for me to say.
Speaker 1: It's really I kind of feel that, you know, we're
Speaker 1: an energy and once we put off this mortal coil,
Speaker 1: we go on to a higher energy power and we
Speaker 1: all become a part of that. Like I said, and
Speaker 1: it's kind of complicated, but I do believe that the
Speaker 1: Scripture for me has cup alive and I'm never going
Speaker 1: to be able to get over that ed. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just something that's so I don't know, it's really harder,
Speaker 1: it's just personal. It's hard to explain. But if you
Speaker 1: could understand that David talked about what was going to
Speaker 1: happen for the two years that I was there, and
Speaker 1: then it happens, that's a pretty powerful thing for anybody.
Speaker 1: To me. He was even more powerful about the faith
Speaker 1: of the people that lived in Mount Carmel is when
Speaker 1: you talk to the older people that knew David Kresh
Speaker 1: when he was vernon when he first came onto the scene,
Speaker 1: and he seemed to have a really good knowledge of scripture,
Speaker 1: but he wasn't teaching the Seven Seals, and he kind
Speaker 1: of stuttered, he was a little shy, and he was
Speaker 1: a little awkward. And then this guy you know, he
Speaker 1: starts teaching some classes here and there, but he's nothing spectacular.
Speaker 1: Then he goes to Israel, and when he comes back
Speaker 1: from Israel, he claims that he's had this vision. He
Speaker 1: starts teaching the Seven Seals and he starts getting into
Speaker 1: a depth of things that the old, older people that
Speaker 1: have lived there for many, many years, they've been waiting
Speaker 1: for this guy to come and reveal the Seventh Seals.
Speaker 1: At Mount Carmel, it believed there were two or three
Speaker 1: different prophets that were there before David Koresh came on
Speaker 1: the scene, and they all had they're a little bit
Speaker 1: of light here, a little bit like that, but they
Speaker 1: all talked about one that would come and reveal the
Speaker 1: Seven Seals. So when you're waiting for that for a
Speaker 1: couple decades, like Climb or some of the older people,
Speaker 1: and then here comes this guy and he starts revealing
Speaker 1: the Seven Seals, I can only imagine how powerful that
Speaker 1: is for those people. It's a powerful story me telling it.
Speaker 1: And it's one of the reasons that I thought this
Speaker 1: was maybe a truer religion is because these people claim
Speaker 1: to actually have profits in their past and that here's
Speaker 1: this guy that starts revealing the seventh sealed. So to me,
Speaker 1: that's part of some of the most fascinating aspect of
Speaker 1: Malcarmel and the people there is that they were waiting
Speaker 1: for this guy to come. This guy shows up and
Speaker 1: he shows you what's going to happen out of a book,
Speaker 1: and then the FBI, the ATF attacks, and the FBI
Speaker 1: take over comes what it is and everyone is basically
Speaker 1: killed for what they believe in what that's pretty powerful.
Speaker 4: Describe what was the doctrine of the Davidians, what did
Speaker 4: they believe?
Speaker 1: They got a couple of weeks. Honestly to get to
Speaker 1: give your eye. I'll try to make it very simple,
Speaker 1: and it's going to be hard because the first few
Speaker 1: seals took two weeks to learn, two weeks of eight
Speaker 1: hour studies every day to really understand what was going on.
Speaker 1: So just if you're listening to my voice, if you
Speaker 1: can try to kind of try to if you can,
Speaker 1: just try to comprehend that a little bit, because I'm
Speaker 1: going to oversimplify everything to an extreme. And basically, the
Speaker 1: people know Carmel believe that they were the wave Sheath
Speaker 1: and it talks about it talks about the wave sheath
Speaker 1: the first of the first group. But there will be
Speaker 1: a group of people, a strange people, a peculiar people
Speaker 1: that'll be that'll have a message, the final message, for
Speaker 1: the final message that God gives man before the Kingdom
Speaker 1: of God is set up on the earth, and that
Speaker 1: message is going to be very powerful and it's going
Speaker 1: to be hated by mankind. There's several scriptures where God
Speaker 1: talks about a stumbling block or for the people of
Speaker 1: the earth, that God is going to create a stumbling block.
Speaker 1: People are going to hear this truth, they're not going
Speaker 1: to believe it, they're not gonna want it. And the government,
Speaker 1: the powers that be you call it Babylon or the
Speaker 1: King of the North, are going to go in and
Speaker 1: they're going to basically wipe out the people that are
Speaker 1: learning this the way. She's the first of the first
Speaker 1: truth and they're learning these things. So when the kingdom
Speaker 1: is set up and they that the one hundred and
Speaker 1: forty four thousand, as it's talked about in the scripture,
Speaker 1: A lot, but a lot of really religious people that
Speaker 1: I have said to run into all believes A lot
Speaker 1: of people believe one hundred and forty four thousands, the
Speaker 1: only people that could save them on the earth. That's
Speaker 1: simply not true. The next line says, one hundred and
Speaker 1: forty four thousand they come to the Kingdom of God
Speaker 1: set up on the earth, and they learned from the lamb.
Speaker 1: They learned something. And then they go out and they
Speaker 1: gather the great multitude which no man can number. So
Speaker 1: we find out, for the scripture, gods in the saving business,
Speaker 1: and he basically wants these first the first fruit, gether
Speaker 1: of the one hundred and forty four thousand who and
Speaker 1: turn together the rest of the world and bring them
Speaker 1: into the Kingdom of Heaven, if you will. So that's
Speaker 1: basically in a nutshell who the people in mel Carmo
Speaker 1: believed that they were that that first group that would
Speaker 1: have to die for their testimony. Literally they would die
Speaker 1: before everyone else under the fifth Seal, if you will,
Speaker 1: and they would be attacked by the government, and then
Speaker 1: after that the Kingdom of God at some point, and
Speaker 1: there's no nobody knows the time or the days, but
Speaker 1: God himself, no Navidian or none of the people that
Speaker 1: I knew, will ever say this is going to happen
Speaker 1: in twenty five years or thirty years or fifty years.
Speaker 1: But if all this is true, the Kingdom of God
Speaker 1: is to be set up on the earth, and then
Speaker 1: everyone will have the chance at some point to go
Speaker 1: and learn from God himself. So take that for a
Speaker 1: brief little good.
Speaker 4: It's very good. And you still believe today that the
Speaker 4: Branch Davidians were that that group that was to be sacrificed,
Speaker 4: and David prophesied correctly.
Speaker 1: Well, I think I would. Yeah, I would be going
Speaker 1: against I would be going against every grading in my body.
Speaker 1: If not, then it's all for nothing. And those people
Speaker 1: just died for nothing.
Speaker 4: Gotcha, you know he has.
Speaker 1: Like I said, if you were there for the weeks
Speaker 1: and weeks of studies where you just really had your
Speaker 1: mind blown and you can see it all come to life,
Speaker 1: it's not as far as that's as you might think. It's.
Speaker 1: It's still powerful to this day. I mean, I'm a
Speaker 1: person that spends a lot of time reading everything I
Speaker 1: can to either not to I won't say to disprove
Speaker 1: God because I've always believed in the higher power. I'd
Speaker 1: like to know how it really works. But at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, no one really knows, you know.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's many Buddhists that are given powers because
Speaker 1: of the intense meditation that they do, and they believe
Speaker 1: that they have the right pass and they might. You know,
Speaker 1: that's one of those mysteries you don't know until you
Speaker 1: go to the other side. So it's all it's really
Speaker 1: all speculation. But I know that I've had a very
Speaker 1: powerful experience that that I can't deny. I'll put it
Speaker 1: that way right now.
Speaker 3: In day to day life there with the branch Davidians,
Speaker 3: did you see miracles? Did you see prophesying of people
Speaker 3: speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, healing?
Speaker 1: Did you see? There was nothing like that at all.
Speaker 1: It was all scripture. They're all I had to do
Speaker 1: with what does the book really say? Actually? And the
Speaker 1: really funny thing is there. I was just talking about
Speaker 1: this other day to somebody who fronted me on Facebook
Speaker 1: and we had a saying and Mount Carmel and that
Speaker 1: the saying was don't go by your feelings. And that
Speaker 1: used to annoying me to no end when they would say,
Speaker 1: you know, when I'd be like said about something. Maybe
Speaker 1: it was the food or the fact that I'm always
Speaker 1: too hot or whatever. It could have been anything anything
Speaker 1: that's you know, withering of the flesh right, And they'd
Speaker 1: always say, don't go by your feelings and what that
Speaker 1: even that's the feeling and everything's feeling when you're a
Speaker 1: human being. What that basically means is what does the
Speaker 1: word of God say? What does the book say? What
Speaker 1: does the scripture say? That's why we're here. We're not
Speaker 1: here because we have electricity or because we have air conditioning.
Speaker 1: It's quite the opposite. We're living here in the middle
Speaker 1: of nowhere on an ant hill because there's the fire
Speaker 1: amps everywhere. I mean, you're always getting chewed up when
Speaker 1: you went outside, you know, living very monastically for a reason,
Speaker 1: and it's not for our comfort. It's because there's something here.
Speaker 1: The Word of God is here, and we need to
Speaker 1: figure out what it really says means, So don't go
Speaker 1: by your feelings literally literally means what does the scripture say? Okay,
Speaker 1: there quite complaining, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: You say that David Krush was a prophet, were there
Speaker 4: other prophecies, like small prophecies that he would exhibit there
Speaker 4: before you that we came true that besides this big one.
Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, there were little things all the time
Speaker 1: I mean, remember one, I've never seen a more serious
Speaker 1: person in my life than David. He was very very
Speaker 1: serious about about scripture and about what it said and
Speaker 1: where we're going. And yeah, you joke once in a while,
Speaker 1: but now he was one hundred percent real when it
Speaker 1: came to when he came to God, when he came
Speaker 1: to the Bible, how he taught it, how he perceived it. Okay, Fas,
Speaker 1: what's your question again?
Speaker 3: Were there other prophecies besides this big one where the
Speaker 3: tanks showed up and burned the whole place down.
Speaker 1: Well, there was a couple of things. I mean, what's
Speaker 1: really funny is is I think it was right before
Speaker 1: Randy Weaver. I was on a roof and we were roofing,
Speaker 1: David and I and well, I was looking out at
Speaker 1: the w rantro and David says, you know, Timbadeau, what
Speaker 1: do you get to do when there's tanks out there?
Speaker 1: We'running up and down at double rantro you know, and
Speaker 1: Governor's going to surround it and make the tanks out there.
Speaker 1: I said, David, They're never going to bring tanks on
Speaker 1: this party. This is America. Well, that's not how they
Speaker 1: do it. They're not going to bring tanks onto this property.
Speaker 1: And he just looked at me and he didn't say anything.
Speaker 1: And whenever he did that, I knew that I put
Speaker 1: my foot in my mouth. But anyway, I didn't take
Speaker 1: anything of it. You know, I certainly never thought they
Speaker 1: were going to break tanks. And then of course Randy
Speaker 1: Weaver happened and we saw the tank, and I'm like no.
Speaker 1: And then you know, a few months later, when was
Speaker 1: it six months later, they came and rated us. And
Speaker 1: after the ATF backed away and the FBI took over
Speaker 1: a few days later. I think the next day, there's
Speaker 1: tanks on the property. And I couldn't believe what I
Speaker 1: was seeing. I'm sitting there. It's it's in a seed
Speaker 1: situation now, the eighteenth a learning that there's tanks on
Speaker 1: the property. They're running up and down w Rants Road.
Speaker 1: So you know, I mean, that's pretty awesome stuff. Man,
Speaker 1: there was. You may not consider that a miracle, but
Speaker 1: to me, that was kind of a mirror.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the kids listened to the show today, you know,
Speaker 3: who see tanks at the Ferguson rally. You know, protests
Speaker 3: and stuff like that.
Speaker 4: This is a big deal.
Speaker 3: Back in those Back in the eighties, we didn't have
Speaker 3: tanks showing up to arrest people in America. It was
Speaker 3: a different world back in those days. We got to
Speaker 3: take a commercial break with David Tibudou. The book is
Speaker 3: called Waco or Survivor's Story. This is the David Tibbadau,
Speaker 3: the subject of this film. You see this mini series
Speaker 3: on Waco. He's telling us what really happened, the truth.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.
Speaker 5: We all have questions. Did he do it or did
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Speaker 5: the ultimate answers will be revealed in the explosive documentary
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Speaker 5: the myths and the concealed evidence. Don't miss Serpents and Rising.
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Speaker 3: Okay, welcome back to the Opperman Report. I'm your host,
Speaker 3: private investigator at Opperman. We're talking to David Tibadu, author
Speaker 3: of the book Waco, a Survivor's Story, and he's the
Speaker 3: subject the same David Tibodau you see on the on the.
Speaker 4: Waco mini series on TV. Right now. That that's David.
Speaker 3: Let's get into the allegations that the what the police
Speaker 3: allegations of why they attacked you?
Speaker 4: What, what what was going on for real?
Speaker 1: What the allegations of course had to do with semi
Speaker 1: automatic weapons being turned into fully automatic weapons without the
Speaker 1: tax being paid. I think at the time it was
Speaker 1: a two hundred dollars tax for the proper yellow sheets
Speaker 1: to have a filato. Right. Well, anyway, make a long
Speaker 1: story shortly, they really didn't have any evidence that people
Speaker 1: were manufacturing full auto. Some people, some neighbors said that
Speaker 1: they heard what they thought was full auto, but really
Speaker 1: it was some automatic. It could just you full in
Speaker 1: the view really quickly. So, I mean it seemed like
Speaker 1: they had kind of a flimsy case in my adminast
Speaker 1: and myst estimization that that that was even going on.
Speaker 1: But nonetheless they wanted to you know, I mean, we
Speaker 1: know that their budget had come up, was coming up
Speaker 1: in Congress, and the ATF had just had the Randy
Speaker 1: Weaver fiasco happened, and they really wanted to get have
Speaker 1: a big butt so they could justify getting more money
Speaker 1: from Congress. So they came up with this operation show Time,
Speaker 1: and they were gonna a Trojan horse, I think so.
Speaker 1: And they were gonna, you know, go after a community
Speaker 1: that they could demonize very easily by calling us the
Speaker 1: call and say that there was a bunch of firearms
Speaker 1: on hand and we were going to go into the
Speaker 1: community where you want to start shooting or some crazy
Speaker 1: stuff like that. You know. The reality is David had
Speaker 1: met a man named Henry McMahon, I don't know, a
Speaker 1: year or so before all this happened. Henry was a
Speaker 1: licensed firearms dealer, and he started showing David the business.
Speaker 1: Him and Paul Fattas started doing that, you know, going
Speaker 1: to gun shows and buying and selling gun legally. Paul
Speaker 1: actually had a lot of the guns at a gun shows,
Speaker 1: so you know, it was something that they did every weekend,
Speaker 1: so I didn't think it was about outlantish. Once you
Speaker 1: live in Texas for a while and you realize that
Speaker 1: all of your neighbors have guns, it's not a big deal.
Speaker 1: Like I'm you know, I'm from New England, and unless
Speaker 1: you're a hunter, it's kind of a deal if you
Speaker 1: have a lot of guns. I mean, it made it's
Speaker 1: a little different, you know. But if you live in
Speaker 1: any bigger communities, the guns are kind of frown upon.
Speaker 1: When you're in Texas, that's a different story. It's it's
Speaker 1: part of the landscape anyway. So once I got used
Speaker 1: to guns being around, it didn't bother me, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean what people did. If you wanted to have
Speaker 1: a gun, you had a gun. So what we had
Speaker 1: band members from other bands in the community come out
Speaker 1: and shoot with us at our firing range. And it
Speaker 1: was nothing that was sinister, you know, It's just a
Speaker 1: good time. So anyway, that's what it's why they were
Speaker 1: saying that I crested these illegal weapons, and so that
Speaker 1: they could justify this big attack. And of course they
Speaker 1: used child abuse, which has nothing to do with the FBI,
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with the ATF state issue. But
Speaker 1: they used child abuse and kresh having you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of kids with a lot of girls, is being
Speaker 1: this thing that they needed to go in and stuff
Speaker 1: as well. That again, there's no jurisdiction for any kind
Speaker 1: of federal authority for them to use that. They're only
Speaker 1: using it for demonization tactics, you know. And there's I
Speaker 1: have a quote that I've committed to memory, and it
Speaker 1: says it all about Waco. Senator Henry Clay said the
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. He said, the devices of power and its
Speaker 1: minions are the same in all ages and in all countries.
Speaker 1: It marks its victim, denounces it, exciting the public hatred
Speaker 1: so it can conceal its own abuses and encroachments. When
Speaker 1: you think about that quote, it's exactly what happened a
Speaker 1: Mount Carmel. Once the ATS screwed up and they came
Speaker 1: in shooting, they lost to me and the FBI took over.
Speaker 1: What took to rest years and years to get people
Speaker 1: to come around his way of thinking, to come around
Speaker 1: of showing the scripture over and over again, day after date,
Speaker 1: night after night, for people to believe him and want
Speaker 1: to stay there and be there. It took the FBI
Speaker 1: only fifty one days to control the entire world through
Speaker 1: the media by demonization tactics, so they could get away
Speaker 1: with what they did. Because the truth is, if they
Speaker 1: were not demonizing us every day, if people thought of
Speaker 1: us as being human beings, they could not have gotten
Speaker 1: away with doing what they did.
Speaker 4: Yeah, churchgoers, you know, you know what I mean. You
Speaker 4: consider churchgoers good people. But there was the arrest.
Speaker 3: Weren't they showed up that we had nothing to do
Speaker 3: with child of because they weren't there to inspect children
Speaker 3: or you know, anything like that, right, correct.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: The other thing is the arrest war. The arrest war
Speaker 1: apparently had to be the judge said that it had
Speaker 1: to be served as a dynamic entry, which means they
Speaker 1: go to, Oh, I'm glad we're bringing this stuff because
Speaker 1: you talked about this rape when we were closing. The
Speaker 1: militarization of law enforcement, to me is the most ridiculous
Speaker 1: thing that can happen in this country. And you know,
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this on the break. But you
Speaker 1: would mention that kids today have always seen that, and
Speaker 1: you mentioned a protest where they have tanks on and
Speaker 1: but back in the eighties it was shocked, and you know,
Speaker 1: I still think it's shocking. I'm surprised. I hope that
Speaker 1: kids today aren't that they should not be used to
Speaker 1: seeing tanks being used against them. Ever. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: that's the stuff the Russians do. That's not the stuff
Speaker 1: we're supposed to do under the constitution that we have.
Speaker 1: And it just blows my mind that I really hope
Speaker 1: that the kids today aren't comfortable with it.
Speaker 3: And I hope so too, you know, I hope so too.
Speaker 3: But I just know that it's such a different world,
Speaker 3: you know, than it was when I were young.
Speaker 4: Guys.
Speaker 3: You know, Okay, so what about the sexual allegations though
Speaker 3: of Koresh with the multiple wives and these kids.
Speaker 4: Was he dating young girls and sleeping with young girls?
Speaker 1: Well, you know, David did have. Part of the scripture
Speaker 1: there that he was teaching was to he had a
Speaker 1: lot of he had a lot of lives. He didn't
Speaker 1: have a lot of life. And for me, when I
Speaker 1: first got there, it was like, Okay, here's a pretty girl.
Speaker 1: Here's a pretty girl. I got to know him over
Speaker 1: the course of a few weeks when I first got there,
Speaker 1: and they seemed like very intelligent women. To me. I mean,
Speaker 1: there was no one that looked like they were a
Speaker 1: little baby girl rooming around pregnant. I mean, when I
Speaker 1: met Michelle, she talked to me and interacted with me
Speaker 1: like a young woman, like she she had a sense
Speaker 1: of things, She was intelligent. She acted way more mature
Speaker 1: than any of the girls that I had known in
Speaker 1: Hollywood at that age. I was twenty three at the time,
Speaker 1: and so you know, I thought of her as my equal,
Speaker 1: war my peer. I never thought until I did the
Speaker 1: research for my book, I never realized how young Michelle was.
Speaker 1: She had Serenity Surrendity was three and I boughted with
Speaker 1: that child who were very close Serenity and I. But
Speaker 1: I guess at the time that I met Michelle she
Speaker 1: was seventeen. But I never for a second thought that
Speaker 1: because she seemed like my equal, more than younger than me,
Speaker 1: even more mature in a lock games. But I use
Speaker 1: her as the example because when I was doing the
Speaker 1: research for the book, and I really had to be
Speaker 1: honest with everything. Yes, I'm a survivor, but you know
Speaker 1: I wanted I wanted the testimony to be true, and
Speaker 1: the only way was to be truthful in all things
Speaker 1: and I found out that she did have a serenity
Speaker 1: when she was fourteen years old. And you know, that's
Speaker 1: a very shocking thing when you're singing it on paper,
Speaker 1: but when you know the people you know. Like I said,
Speaker 1: my attitude coming into it was like once I started
Speaker 1: to figure out that it was David that was the
Speaker 1: father of most of the children there, I was just like, well,
Speaker 1: how can all these women look together and not kill
Speaker 1: each other? I never understood that, So I guess I
Speaker 1: was very not non judgmental. If that's the way the
Speaker 1: community wanted, that's the way the community wanted. I was
Speaker 1: here to learn something, So, like I said, it didn't
Speaker 1: I don't know, it didn't seem all that shocking to me.
Speaker 1: It was just the way the way people are living
Speaker 1: that are outside of the realms of the normal community.
Speaker 1: I don't know the way it's been done scripturally for
Speaker 1: thousands of years.
Speaker 4: So what about the scene where you get married and
Speaker 4: then you're not allowed to sup at your wife and
Speaker 4: he's soup with wye? Did that really happen?
Speaker 1: Well, there wasn't a natural marriage. They put that in
Speaker 1: for dramatic effect. Michelle and I were very close and
Speaker 1: David asked me if I would marry Michelle, and so
Speaker 1: I thought that that was going to have some kind
Speaker 1: of ceremony, but that actually never was. He just I
Speaker 1: think he just wrote to somebody that Michelle was married
Speaker 1: to me. That's all they're into. That was actually legal.
Speaker 4: Okay, what about the day of the attack? What were
Speaker 4: you doing when you start hearing all this stuff?
Speaker 1: Sure, I got up and I was I was having
Speaker 1: breakfast in the caffeteria with a few people, and I
Speaker 1: remember I was a little tired, little groggy. I walked
Speaker 1: down the hall to the foyer area and David was
Speaker 1: talking at the foyer with Robert Rodriguez. Who's this guy
Speaker 1: that moved in across the street who we know is
Speaker 1: we know now is an ATF agent. We definitely had
Speaker 1: our suspicions that he was an agent. We all believed
Speaker 1: he was an agent, to be honest with you, and so,
Speaker 1: to make a long story short, I didn't think anything
Speaker 1: of it. He's been there a couple of weeks, he
Speaker 1: didn't come over, coming over just about every day. I
Speaker 1: just thought I was just David talking to Robert. Didn't
Speaker 1: think anything over. I went back down and was finishing
Speaker 1: my breakfast. You know, I think I once and got
Speaker 1: dressed to some water on my face or something, and
Speaker 1: then I went back to period. It seemed like there
Speaker 1: was a lot of commotion going on, door slamming, people
Speaker 1: running up and down the hall, and the next thing
Speaker 1: I know, I'm hearing these helicopters in the background, and
Speaker 1: David comes down the stairs and he says, Okay, they're coming,
Speaker 1: They're on their way. Don't anybody do anything stupid. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go outside where I'm gonna try to talk to him.
Speaker 1: That's what we're about here about carbodo anybody do anything stupid?
Speaker 1: And he ran to the He ran out of the
Speaker 1: cafeteria and down the hall, probably about thirty seconds later.
Speaker 1: Although time is really hard to calculate when you're being
Speaker 1: shot at. I could hear his voice, and then I
Speaker 1: could just hear I heard all this fight, gunfire, and
Speaker 1: it's you know, started slow at first, that it picked
Speaker 1: up very quickly, and so I got down. I just
Speaker 1: got down on my face. Living in Hollywood, when you
Speaker 1: hear gunshots, you learned to just kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: get down to protect yourself. Well. Taking a lot of stories. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I talked after the gunfight. I talked to three or
Speaker 1: four different people that were at the front door at
Speaker 1: different times, and they all told me the exact same story. Also,
Speaker 1: that David was at the front door. He opened the
Speaker 1: door and he held his hand out and he said,
Speaker 1: hold on, there's women and children here, let's talk about this.
Speaker 1: They said the door flew back in his hand from
Speaker 1: the velocity of a bullet hitting it, and then he
Speaker 1: slammed the door and fell back. And that's when Perry Jones,
Speaker 1: a seventy year old man, unarmed, went down Michelle's father,
Speaker 1: Rachel's father, from a bullet worn to his stomach. And
Speaker 1: so when he went down and he was riding in agony,
Speaker 1: that's when some of the people at the front started
Speaker 1: to shoot back. That was the story that I was told.
Speaker 1: But like I said, three or four different people. So
Speaker 1: I believed in this day, and I've always believed that
Speaker 1: the ATF fired first. At the trials in San Antonio,
Speaker 1: it seemed to indicate that it was the group that
Speaker 1: was going to the pend Up area to shoot the dogs.
Speaker 1: They could have been the first people to fire. There
Speaker 1: was another agent that said his firearm went off when
Speaker 1: he reached for it and some people speculated that could
Speaker 1: have been the first shot fired. What we know for
Speaker 1: sure is the video camera that they had at the
Speaker 1: surveillance house that was rolling that day. Those tapes disappeared,
Speaker 1: So it seems like whatever there's evidence that shows the
Speaker 1: ATF was its fault, the evidence disappears. The steel door,
Speaker 1: the metal door that I was talking about that was
Speaker 1: claimed this is disintegrated in the fire, while the other
Speaker 1: door was entered into evidence in San Antonio. So whatever there,
Speaker 1: you know, whenever it was convenient for the ACF, that
Speaker 1: evidence no longer exists. So I thoroughly believe one hundred
Speaker 1: percent that they fired first.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's been established, you know, and the
Speaker 4: door being missing and all that kind of stuff too.
Speaker 1: It has, but I like to bring up every shit
Speaker 1: I can because they still claim that we fired first.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then of course they did. They did that ATF
Speaker 1: propaganda film Ambership Waco, which was done during the siege,
Speaker 1: where they show the agents going into dogs with fire extinguishers,
Speaker 1: which I thought was disgusting because they shot those dogs,
Speaker 1: they didn't fire extinguishers sold my intelligence like that. It
Speaker 1: was just that thing was ridiculous. That was obviously a propaganda.
Speaker 1: Just like any military that goes into a country, there's
Speaker 1: a propaganda movie to explain why they're in your country
Speaker 1: and try to justify it. It's just, you know, there's
Speaker 1: there's a playbook that they use, and it's been used
Speaker 1: for hundreds of years. It's it hasn't changed.
Speaker 4: Did I see a film too that explored the possibility
Speaker 4: that some of it was friendly fire, that the agents
Speaker 4: shot themselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I don't know about that one. Okay,
Speaker 1: well that's possible. What was Yeah, I think I can't
Speaker 1: remember which one that was, though, it was one of
Speaker 1: the documentaries.
Speaker 4: Yeah, up on the roof there, so some bullets were coming. Uh,
Speaker 4: we're going they were shooting through the wall.
Speaker 1: Uh now, well, I don't think that's I think that was.
Speaker 1: That was a Scott Snobi shooting. I think Scott told
Speaker 1: me that story. He was up in that room up there,
Speaker 1: and they through in the flash bangrenade, and then Scott
Speaker 1: looked up after they he got his senses that he
Speaker 1: saw a guy coming in the window with a gun
Speaker 1: ready to shoot at him, so he just fired into
Speaker 1: that building blindly after being shot. At first, I don't
Speaker 1: think they were shot by I don't think that's true.
Speaker 4: Well, what about the fifty one days? Now, what was that? Like,
Speaker 4: did you did anybody want to go go leave you
Speaker 4: know what was going on there?
Speaker 1: No, nobody wanted to leave if we left, we if
Speaker 1: we we yeah, we mayn't wanted to leave, but we
Speaker 1: wanted to leave together. We definitely didn't want to be
Speaker 1: separate from the group. You know, when you live in
Speaker 1: the community, that's your community, that's that's that's your family
Speaker 1: saw on sense of purposes And when you see your
Speaker 1: family members wrongly come wrongly, get shot and killed, that's
Speaker 1: the last thing you want to do is go for
Speaker 1: those people that just came in and shot at you.
Speaker 1: Even it's like a big brother, like yes, because yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but like David said on that tape, that's like big brother,
Speaker 1: come here to investigate what happened a little brother, and
Speaker 1: that's it's not cool, you know, I mean that. And
Speaker 1: that aside what happened during the fifty one days. If
Speaker 1: you were to take it day by day and you
Speaker 1: would see that David would you know, we'd make an
Speaker 1: agreement with the FBI negotiators and everything, that'd be great.
Speaker 1: And then the next day the tactical commanders would come
Speaker 1: and put pressure on, maybe start destroying sheds and stuff.
Speaker 1: After the FBI negotiators told us that would happen, and
Speaker 1: then they'd get on the the They would get on
Speaker 1: the every day there was a press conference and the
Speaker 1: FBI would say, well, this cult has done this, and
Speaker 1: Crash thinks that God's talking to him and you know
Speaker 1: these cult members or they're really dangerous. They would say
Speaker 1: these things about us publicly and we'd be listening, and
Speaker 1: then they get on the phone and say, oh, that's
Speaker 1: just the commanders doing their things. You know, we don't
Speaker 1: need that, and it's like, what are you guys talking about?
Speaker 1: But it was kind of like, how what's the sort of
Speaker 1: how psychotic are you? You say one thing to us,
Speaker 1: then you say another thing to the American public and
Speaker 1: you expect us to trust you. Now imagine that happening
Speaker 1: every single day, them saying something about you ed when
Speaker 1: your audience knows who you are, but they won't do
Speaker 1: your radio show anymore, and they're just talking about you
Speaker 1: the way they want you to be perceived. That's a
Speaker 1: very hard thing to deal with. And I got to
Speaker 1: tell you, it doesn't make you want to go up
Speaker 1: to those people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they have to know that, they have to
Speaker 3: know that I'm never gonna I'm going to know that
Speaker 3: I'm never going to get out alive because I'll be
Speaker 3: able to talk, you know.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very frustrating.
Speaker 1: You know, I've lost hope once in my life, and
Speaker 1: that was on the last day when you know, the FBI.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure we'll talk about this, but the FBI
Speaker 1: was tear gassing us and they came on the radio.
Speaker 1: It was ten thirty on them. Forget it. They came
Speaker 1: on the radio and they said the FBI attacking, is
Speaker 1: not attacking, but they're putting in a tear gas at
Speaker 1: a Mount Carmel and they're saying that the siege is
Speaker 1: over and they have received two hundred gun shots against
Speaker 1: their cevs, but due to the credit of the FBI,
Speaker 1: they have not fired back at the Davidians. When I
Speaker 1: heard that, that's the only time I ever lost hope
Speaker 1: because I knew they were setting the American public up
Speaker 1: for massacre. I, in my naivete thought that we would
Speaker 1: still be able to establish negotiations. When they saw that
Speaker 1: we were not going to come out from their cs
Speaker 1: gas attack plan and maybe they would see that we
Speaker 1: were serious about writing the Seven Seals down in manuscript
Speaker 1: form and they would back away. I lost all hope
Speaker 1: when I heard that, because I knew that none of
Speaker 1: the people in the building fired against those tanks. I
Speaker 1: had not heard a gun shot all day, not all
Speaker 1: day at the tenth oring nothing. No one fired a
Speaker 1: shot at those tanks. So that was the final lie. Really,
Speaker 1: I mean, I knew that's how they were going to
Speaker 1: justify them killing us by saying that we were shooting
Speaker 1: at them. We did not shoot at them during that
Speaker 1: that last day. It did not happen.
Speaker 4: Was their use of gasoline inside the building?
Speaker 1: How do you mean specifically? There was gasoline? Everyone had
Speaker 1: pullman lanterns and some gases used in the in the
Speaker 1: generator right that we had. Well, so what I'm curious
Speaker 1: what you mean by the do you mean to set
Speaker 1: a fire?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you hear the allegations that they you guys were
Speaker 3: in there pouring gas all over the place.
Speaker 4: Were there any of that thing like that happened?
Speaker 1: No, not that I saw in the area that I was.
Speaker 1: I was in a pretty major area. I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: say it couldn't happen to the other side of the building.
Speaker 1: I could get to the concrete structure because of the
Speaker 1: all the damage of the tanks, and that I had
Speaker 1: tried to get there earlier. And then excuse me earlier
Speaker 1: in the day, but that hallway was blocked off because
Speaker 1: of the debris of the tank coming in. But I gotta,
Speaker 1: I gotta say, I have a I brought this. I'll
Speaker 1: bring it up again and again. I have a major
Speaker 1: problem with the recordings, the devices they put in, and
Speaker 1: we all knew if they were in the milk whale.
Speaker 1: Put all the recording devices that we probably put in
Speaker 1: a room, the bugs, if you will, in a specific room. Now,
Speaker 1: the tapes that they claim say that people were saying
Speaker 1: light a fire for some air for them there. You know, well,
Speaker 1: that could be anything. But even even if someone were
Speaker 1: making a Molotov cocktail to use against the tanks, let's
Speaker 1: just say that's a possibility. Even if that were true.
Speaker 1: It was six am when the FBI said those tapes
Speaker 1: were made six hours before the fire, and they said
Speaker 1: they were very careful to say we didn't know what
Speaker 1: they were saying then, or else we would have stopped
Speaker 1: to see s gas attack the plan to sees gas plan.
Speaker 1: We didn't know until we took the tapes back to
Speaker 1: Washington and had them scrubbs. Those are words that to
Speaker 1: me are just I hear those words in red Flags,
Speaker 1: go open my head, because I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: ever seen the movie Let's se If I get this right,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to think of it as the last
Speaker 1: second when I needed them. I Okay, we know, Okay,
Speaker 1: we know the tapes have been manipulated in the past.
Speaker 1: It's easy to do. So when the FBI said that
Speaker 1: they had to tape scrub and that's the only way
Speaker 1: to realize what was really being said, I have a
Speaker 1: problem with that because it's totally in their control. They
Speaker 1: can't hear it first in, but they have to go
Speaker 1: and have the tape manipulated. They could make that say
Speaker 1: whatever they want. But even more importantly, they claimed that
Speaker 1: tape that was made six hours before the fire. So
Speaker 1: if you're pouring fuel all over the building and tanks
Speaker 1: are going into it and creating sparks, how does the
Speaker 1: fire not start for six hours?
Speaker 4: They would evaporate in six hours, for sure. Gasoline evaporate
Speaker 4: very very quickly. Oh, you pour some gas on the ground.
Speaker 4: It's gone in five minutes. Now we only have fourteen
Speaker 4: minutes left. And you wanted to talk about the infrared film.
Speaker 4: What do you want to tell us about that?
Speaker 1: Well, for anyone who's okay, there's a documentary was done
Speaker 1: called Wakelo The Rules of Engagement, and there's another one
Speaker 1: called Wake On A New Revelations is important as well,
Speaker 1: But that's given talks all over the country. After this
Speaker 1: happened about a year or so and I was fin,
Speaker 1: you know, I had been through the sentence experience, but
Speaker 1: I was fine. I could talk to an audience, you know,
Speaker 1: it was everything was good. And then I went to
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and I saw him, this guy who was
Speaker 1: doing this documentary, Mike McNulty and William Gazeki, and I
Speaker 1: went to William Gazecki was the guy that was mixing
Speaker 1: it and kind of cutting the film together, and they
Speaker 1: had this infrared videotape they wanted me to see. And
Speaker 1: I saw the infrared videotape and it was an infrared
Speaker 1: of course is heat seeking sources. So if there's a
Speaker 1: heat source, it comes out white on the tape, and
Speaker 1: if it's a cool area comes out black. So it's
Speaker 1: like a black and white film, only it's not black
Speaker 1: and white. It's in great The FBI had a plane
Speaker 1: find two miles above Mount Carmel that day and they
Speaker 1: were filming the last minutes, and you can see on
Speaker 1: the tape you can see two pyrotechnic devices go off
Speaker 1: in the gym area, and then there's another place where
Speaker 1: you can see a pyrotechnical at least a flashbang or
Speaker 1: a pyrotechnic device. Either way, it could easily caught a fire.
Speaker 1: To start a fire, especially with all the cscus that
Speaker 1: was in perm that had permeated everything. But more importantly
Speaker 1: is as the fire starts and we see the fire grow,
Speaker 1: nine people came out of the fire. They came out
Speaker 1: of the side of the building, in the front of
Speaker 1: the building where the cameras could still see us from
Speaker 1: two or three miles away. I came out of the
Speaker 1: side of the building. The majority, many of the people
Speaker 1: in the back of the building, in the cafeteria area,
Speaker 1: especially the women and the children who are in the
Speaker 1: concrete structure. Now there's some documentaries they out now, like
Speaker 1: the A and E one which is very good. Up
Speaker 1: Inntol the end and up into at the the end
Speaker 1: of that documentary, they said that the Davidians themselves that
Speaker 1: it was a mass suicide, which is, it's ridiculous. I
Speaker 1: have denied this from day one. And then they also
Speaker 1: go on to say they don't understand why none of
Speaker 1: the adults grabbed kids and brought them out of the building.
Speaker 1: But well, they don't tell you. It's that next to
Speaker 1: the tanks. There's two tanks at the back of the building,
Speaker 1: and on the infrared video, next to each tank, we
Speaker 1: have fully automatic weapons fire from two different positions on
Speaker 1: several several occasions. I think they counted something like ninety
Speaker 1: eight different shots altogether that you can see on the
Speaker 1: infrared that's at the outside of the building being shot
Speaker 1: into the building. So my question for them these tapes exist.
Speaker 1: How can anyone bring someone out of a burning building
Speaker 1: if they're being shot down? And the SOSSA coincides with
Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen of the autopsy reports that I read
Speaker 1: for myself that said about thirteen different people died from
Speaker 1: bullet once to the center of the head and the
Speaker 1: center of the chest. Jimmy Riddle was actually run over
Speaker 1: by one of the tags and his you know, his
Speaker 1: body was torn into pieces. It's just awesome to me
Speaker 1: how all these facts exist and they're still ignored. I
Speaker 1: mean none, none of the networks will touch this information
Speaker 1: at all. Yet it's there, and you know I cannot.
Speaker 1: I mean to a point, I can understand it. Not everyone,
Speaker 1: you know, we're all Americans. We don't really want to
Speaker 1: take the system down. But I just want a better
Speaker 1: form of job. I'd like some of the murderers to
Speaker 1: go to jail. I'd like some of the planners through
Speaker 1: this thing to go to jail. Started getting raises, and
Speaker 1: they get their they get the promotions, they get their retirements,
Speaker 1: they get away with murder, and they should be serving
Speaker 1: the American public. They we shouldn't be serving them. We shouldn't.
Speaker 1: It's not a dictatorship in this country. So if you
Speaker 1: mess up your position, you shouldn't get a raise, you
Speaker 1: should lose your job. And if you kill people, you
Speaker 1: should probably go to jail. And I don't care who
Speaker 1: you work for.
Speaker 4: Yeah, just like a ramon Africa and move in Philadelphia
Speaker 4: when the victims they're running out from the fire that
Speaker 4: they're being shot at. So we've said us before.
Speaker 3: Now did anybody go to who went to prison for
Speaker 3: this and no, no FBI. But did any Davidians go
Speaker 3: to prison?
Speaker 1: Yes, many of them did. Actually, many of the young
Speaker 1: guys went to jail for many years fifteen in some
Speaker 1: cases they were given forty but I figured went all
Speaker 1: the way up to the Supreme Court and some of
Speaker 1: the the sentences were reduced. Everyone is out of jail now.
Speaker 1: I stay in touch with Clive Doyle and Sheila Martin.
Speaker 1: I've seen them recently. Actually what a lot of years
Speaker 1: where I didn't. I just didn't have the money to
Speaker 1: go back for any of the memorials. So it was
Speaker 1: nice to get to see them again. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of people I'm not in contact with. I'm in contact
Speaker 1: with some of the kids actually, like David Jones's kids.
Speaker 1: I better not say, Hey, David Jones's children I'm in
Speaker 1: touch with that still live down there in the area. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm willing to be in touch with anyone who was
Speaker 1: who was close to the situation. I get the feeling
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't want to talk about a
Speaker 1: lot of family members, and that's you know, that's fine.
Speaker 1: I totally understand that. You know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of pain, a lot of destruction caused through
Speaker 1: all this. I mean, people still feel it today. There's
Speaker 1: there's people that lost a lot from from the government's
Speaker 1: actions that are still alive now.
Speaker 4: Are there any how many are still members of the
Speaker 4: of the faith.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I think some of the younger guys
Speaker 1: out of prison are and they moved to Central America.
Speaker 1: Some of them, Clive and Clive and Sheila still live
Speaker 1: in Laco, and I know that they still. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: still they still believe and read their Bibles and keep
Speaker 1: the Sabbath if you will, things like that. I think
Speaker 1: most of them. Hm.
Speaker 4: And what happened with all the hearings, the congressional hearings?
Speaker 4: What was the resolution? What did they come up with
Speaker 4: their finding?
Speaker 1: Even the worse the congressional hearings, you got such little
Speaker 1: time left. I like to talk about the trials of
Speaker 1: San Antonio briefly. There was a criminal trial where some
Speaker 1: of these people got four years on a weapons violation
Speaker 1: that the jury thought they were throwing out, which was ridiculous.
Speaker 1: We had the judge, Walter Smith was definitely the government boy.
Speaker 1: Whenever we had material like we had a lot of
Speaker 1: expert witnesses, a lot of the fire marshals. We wanted
Speaker 1: to get on the stand. We had the corner that
Speaker 1: we wanted to get on the stand. We had these
Speaker 1: the cleary, we had expert witnesses. The judge would not
Speaker 1: allow any of our expert witnesses to testify. He would
Speaker 1: show what tape of the ATF coming out of the
Speaker 1: first day with people on there on the cars after
Speaker 1: being shot and wounded, but then they would cut the
Speaker 1: tape and they wouldn't show you when the ATF I
Speaker 1: went for the cameraman to throw them to the ground.
Speaker 1: So it's like they showed the jury what the judge
Speaker 1: wanted the jury to see, and then made and these rules.
Speaker 1: It made it so complicated that the jury was confused.
Speaker 1: I talked to the jury four persons, and they didn't
Speaker 1: realize that that they wanted these people to get the
Speaker 1: a slap on the wrist, maybe time served. They had
Speaker 1: no idea the judge was going to give him forty
Speaker 1: years on their weapons violation that they thought they had
Speaker 1: thrown out. So that's that, and I mean that it was.
Speaker 1: It was terrible what I saw at San Antonio. But
Speaker 1: was even worse is when we had our sivil case
Speaker 1: against the government. Years later, they gave us the same judge,
Speaker 1: Walter Smith, with the exact same you know, couldn't put
Speaker 1: on our We couldn't put on our own art, We
Speaker 1: couldn't give our own case, We couldn't have our expert
Speaker 1: witnesses testified. I've never seen anything like it. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's our civil case against them. Can you imagine not
Speaker 1: being able to have the same judge that is prejudiced
Speaker 1: against you, who wouldn't let any expert witnesses testify. I
Speaker 1: hadn't to get the same guy in your civil case
Speaker 1: years later. I mean, the fixes in, folks, that's the
Speaker 1: only way they were going to get any kind of
Speaker 1: any kind of judgment from a jury that they wanted
Speaker 1: was to have this guy, Walter Smith at place, and
Speaker 1: he did his job. And you know it was to me.
Speaker 1: I walked out of that court room. My buddy John
Speaker 1: went with me, and the look on his face will
Speaker 1: never forget. He just said, I can't believe this is America.
Speaker 1: I can't believe when I just wait this in that
Speaker 1: court room. This is like we're in Russia or some
Speaker 1: other third world country where where there's no justice whatsoever.
Speaker 1: And that's what it felt like. And that's one of
Speaker 1: the reasons Franklin had been angry for years. Is the
Speaker 1: lack of justice is the worst thing that can happen
Speaker 1: to a person. To know that that nobody cares, that
Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do, nothing you can say, the
Speaker 1: system goes on corrupt and you can't do anything about it.
Speaker 1: That helpless feeling is the worst thing that can happen
Speaker 1: to a thinking person. It's very, very hard to live with.
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right. There's a study in that men men
Speaker 3: our age who feel that they are being treated unfairly.
Speaker 3: It's very unhealthy for us. You have you gone to
Speaker 3: any kind of therapy, any kind of healing for this?
Speaker 1: Ah, sure I did all that.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, man, But you sound you know, off
Speaker 4: the air is a very cheerful guy's very very pleasant.
Speaker 4: Got to talk to you on the air. To meet that.
Speaker 1: I refused it. I refuse to give them power over me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not going to give them the headspace.
Speaker 1: I read this from a famous from a famous Jew
Speaker 1: who survived at the Holocaust, that someone asked him, and
Speaker 1: that's where I've developed this philosophy. How do you deal
Speaker 1: with it? And I just say, well, what do you
Speaker 1: I enjoy my life. That's how I deal with that.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to put them. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: give the Nazi regime any headspace. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: allow them to live in my head. I'm going to
Speaker 1: enjoy my life. I've gone through the worst. Everything's gravy
Speaker 1: from here right now. So I'm trying to develop that
Speaker 1: and just say, you know, yeah, if I'm angry about
Speaker 1: it all the time, then my I give my oppressor's
Speaker 1: power over me. And I refuse to do that. Absolutely
Speaker 1: refuse you. They're not going to ruin my life anymore
Speaker 1: than they have. Absolutely not. They're not worth it.
Speaker 4: Oh you pleased with the way you're being portrayed there
Speaker 4: in the film in the series.
Speaker 1: It's better than I ever thought it could be. I
Speaker 1: never thought that anyone that did a film or a
Speaker 1: production like that would be fair or whatsoever. And the doabtles,
Speaker 1: I think I really done a great job. I will
Speaker 1: say there's a lot of dramatization, and there are some
Speaker 1: things that happened, but they happen to other people. Some
Speaker 1: things you're taking on a timeline, So yeah, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to say that they lied about things because all
Speaker 1: the important points you're in there, Okay, but some things
Speaker 1: didn't happen to me that happen to other people. If
Speaker 1: you really want to know, it's really the book. When
Speaker 1: I wrote the book, I wrote the book from my
Speaker 1: perspective as to what happened to me, and that's something
Speaker 1: I had complete control over, whereas I had no control
Speaker 1: over the series. But I'm not just in the series.
Speaker 1: I'm really happy with the job they did. I'm glad
Speaker 1: that humanized the people of Mount Carmel, which was the
Speaker 1: most important thing to me, and expose the government for
Speaker 1: what they did. It's got people thinking, and it's got
Speaker 1: people talking about it again. And if they really want
Speaker 1: to know, they can read my book and say, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is what happened to this guy, and read Clive
Speaker 1: Doyl's book and say, okay, and that's what happened to Clive. Well,
Speaker 1: you might have a different perspective on it than I,
Speaker 1: and that's fine. I mean, everyone sees things different.
Speaker 3: The book is Waco Survivor's Story. There's a link at
Speaker 3: Oppermanreport dot com. You can pick it up there. David Thibodeau,
Speaker 3: thank you so much. If there's ever anything you want
Speaker 3: to come on here and talk about.
Speaker 4: Do you give me a call. I'll put you right
Speaker 4: on here, okay man.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Likewise, thank you very much, Ed, I appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thank you, sir. Good night, David Thibodeaux. There he goes.
Speaker 4: We're out of times now. I don't even play my ads.
Speaker 4: Let me he'll be up. Play a little quick on here.
Speaker 4: You've gotta make some money, got it? Support the show?
Speaker 4: I go to oppermandreport dot com. Remember we all have questions,
Speaker 4: did he do it?
Speaker 1: Or did he not?
Speaker 5: We all have opinions, but do we really know the truth?
Speaker 5: New evidence will now be presented and the ultimate answers
Speaker 5: will be revealed in the explosive documentary Serpents Rising, inspired
Speaker 5: by the bestseller Double Cross for Blood and independent investigation
Speaker 5: of the Trial of the Century, The Live, the myths
Speaker 5: and the concealed Evidence. Don't miss Surpence and Rising.
Speaker 4: This excellent documentary film is available at Serpents Rising at
Speaker 4: Vimeo Videos on Demand watch it for one dollar and
Speaker 4: ninety nine cents. Thank you so much, and don't forget
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Speaker 3: Fit better, health better, no constipation, and then lose a
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Speaker 4: I guys, thank you so much. Thank you, David Thibodeau.