WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:05.759 This podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:20.199 You know, ever since I moved to Gilmer. I remember 3 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:22.879 that I was pregnant when I moved to Gilmer with Raymond, 4 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:29.399 and they always talked about Satan. Gilmer talked about Satan 5 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:33.560 worshippers all the time. They were the weirdest. I mean, 6 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:36.079 I always thought that was so weird. I'll never forget 7 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:41.000 one time everybody was picking up their daughters and stuff 8 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:44.000 from the Junior High because they was supposed to sacrifice 9 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:45.799 the blonde virgin. 10 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:48.880 This is Tammy Joe Smith. It was the mid eighties 11 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:51.960 when Tammy moved to Gilmer, about seven years before the 12 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:57.079 disappearance of Kelly Day Wilson, before the investigation into Satanic rituals, 13 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:01.359 cannibalism and murder that shocked the small East Texas town. 14 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:05.719 At the time, Tammy had no idea that Gilmer's fear 15 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:08.799 of the devil would forever change her life and all 16 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:10.239 but tear apart her family. 17 00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:14.560 The Satan worshipers were trying to grab a girl, you know, 18 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:18.239 the blonde virgin, to sacrifice to the devil. And that 19 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:21.920 was the first rumors I heard in Gilmer and I'm like, 20 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:25.439 they got a freaking church on every corner in this 21 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:30.120 camp town. Literally, I mean literally, there's fifty freaking I mean, 22 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:33.439 I mean there's a church everywhere. But all I ever 23 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:37.359 heard people talk about was Satan worshipers. I never met 24 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:44.000 one Satan worshiper. The whole fifteen years, I never met one, 25 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:48.439 And still this day, I don't know if I've ever 26 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:51.519 met one. And the funny thing too, is my girlfriend 27 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:55.319 lived out in the country and preach it. And she'd say, 28 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:59.040 I hear channing, and I hear you know, and she goes, 29 00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:03.120 there's zacrifice. I'm like, it's probably the freaking ku Klux 30 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:06.159 Klan because they're so prejudiced. They're meeting out in the 31 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:09.840 middle of nowhere do the thing. I've always thought that. 32 00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:13.400 I always thought their Kuklux planning was the big Satanic 33 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:14.599 thing they were talking about. 34 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.120 Tammy was just seventeen when she settled in Gilmert and 35 00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:21.919 had her oldest son, Raymond. Not long after, Tammy met 36 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:22.759 a man named Down. 37 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:27.759 I was very into the church community, the Pentecostal church. 38 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:33.840 I met Don at church. He was a good looking 39 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:37.840 older man and I thought that he was coming over 40 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:40.520 to my house actually to see my mom. Because he's 41 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:44.120 older than I am, and so I never looked at 42 00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:48.000 him really as a boyfriend type, you know, until later, 43 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:51.039 I mean like a month later. But he was a 44 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:54.000 friendly I thought he was smart and good looking and 45 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:57.719 funny and all the good things. Now he's not as 46 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:00.879 funny as he used to be, but thinks he's funny. 47 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:05.800 Now here's Don whoo Man with that picture of her. 48 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:10.599 The sweeter you got to Tammy, the sweeter she was bad. 49 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:16.719 My name is Don Holman. I've got two honorable discharges 50 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:20.319 in an army, four years in Hell on wheels, two 51 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:23.439 six month tours in Germany, and now I'm noted for 52 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:27.759 being a bible hauling. I mean I'm a bible thumper. 53 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:32.439 Don was in his mid thirties, divorced. Even when he 54 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.759 was just getting to know Tammy, Don already started helping 55 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:38.199 out with her son, Raymond, who was born with a 56 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:41.759 cleft palate. The condition had left baby Raymond with an 57 00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:45.319 opening in his lip and roof of his mouth, requiring 58 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:46.319 corrective surgeries. 59 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:53.159 After a while, I noticed that Tammy had this little 60 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:57.439 deformed baby. He got a buying ladder cleft palette, and 61 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:01.840 this baby is squirt milk about his nose. There ain't 62 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:04.960 nothing there the inside of his liop, The top part 63 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:08.199 was on the outside, and I'd get in there and 64 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:11.000 she'd be just white. I mean, she'd be wiped out 65 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.680 of sleep. I couldn't stand to get her up and 66 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:17.680 say go without her feed, So I fed him, change diaper, 67 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:18.480 put him back. 68 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:21.920 Raymond was a baby. Raymond was like three months old 69 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:27.360 when I met one two three months old, and Raymond 70 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:31.079 was born with a hairlip. Dawn was very good at 71 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:34.519 taking me to all my doctor's appointments and making sure that, 72 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:39.360 you know, like during surgeries and stuff. So it was 73 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:43.360 very supportive of Raymond and took on the father role 74 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:47.600 right away. Raymon's daddy never had anything to do with us. 75 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:49.759 Dawn and Tammy fell in love. 76 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:51.199 After a while. 77 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:56.120 I got the respecting her and she respected me, And 78 00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:02.399 I don't know how everybody else feels. 79 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:03.600 Just because there. 80 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.759 Was an age different and we get along with each 81 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:09.240 other does not mean that I'm out of line or 82 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:12.439 she's out of line. She's a grown woman had a baby. 83 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:15.800 I don't think you know I'm. 84 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:17.879 Doing the wrong as long as I do her right. 85 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:21.360 And after while we got to lacking each other. One day, 86 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:26.800 I said, me and you. She said yep, nobody else yep. 87 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:33.120 I said, okay, And after like four years she said done. 88 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.360 If you die, I don't have nothing to remember. You 89 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:38.920 buy She said, I'd like to have a baby with you. 90 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:41.839 And I said, how about it if I just buy 91 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:48.399 you a car. She'd always says, stop acting stupid. I said, 92 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:54.240 I ain't acting, I said, and right off she got pregnant. 93 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.439 I said, Timmy, I don't have the money to pay 94 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:02.360 for a baby. She said done. Everybody else who people 95 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:05.639 all over the world's having kids, having on the welfare. 96 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:08.639 And we had a kid. 97 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:12.120 When Raymond was five years old. Don and Tammy had 98 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:12.639 their son. 99 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:16.839 Luther, beautiful baby that loved his mom and daddy. It 100 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:21.279 was really just a simple life. I mean, you know, 101 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:23.439 he'd go to work every day. I was a stay 102 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:26.480 at home mom, and we went to church three four 103 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:27.319 times a week. 104 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:30.600 Don had a bunch of different jobs at times. He'd 105 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:33.560 even worked as a reserve police officer, so he actually 106 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:37.120 knew James York Brown, the Gilmer police sergeant who eventually 107 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:40.240 would be accused of kidnapping and murdering Kelly Wilson. 108 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:43.360 I didn't like James Brown. He was the cop you 109 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:46.319 probably know about him. He was all right, but I 110 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:49.959 thought he was a bad guy. Well, he's always smart 111 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.680 enough to me, and you think you're badass or something. 112 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:56.360 He said, I'm a boxer. He said, you every want 113 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.879 to stop the car, get after it? He said we 114 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:02.240 I said, well, I know how to box and I 115 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:05.079 use my feet too. He said, you're in the martial arts. 116 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:08.000 I said, I can kick you enough. You can't get 117 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:11.360 close to me, and I said why, I said, We're 118 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:14.600 gonna look real funny on side row. Two cops fighting. 119 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:16.120 But he would do. 120 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:20.800 Some people take it that they don't know them easy going. 121 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:25.800 I'm not as smart ass or anything. So he'd take 122 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:29.800 me to his house and his wife fixed chicken, and 123 00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:32.920 he treated him as good as gold. 124 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:37.319 Don and Sergeant James York Brown patched things up. Years 125 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:41.600 before Kelly's disappearance, Don and Tammy, Raymond and Luther lived 126 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.600 in government housing in Gilmer. Their neighbor was a young 127 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.759 woman named Wanda Hicks. She had two sons, the Hicks Kids, 128 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:50.560 from a guy named Bad Jimmy. 129 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:54.759 From what I understood is that those kids and Wanda 130 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:58.240 were put in the project apartment right there. They were 131 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:01.800 being filtered from her egg because her ex was abusive. 132 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:05.040 From what I understand, the kids had mental problems from 133 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:07.920 all that craft. I don't know why they went and 134 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:10.360 said hey, you know, because they're the ones that actually 135 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:14.439 started the accusations against me, and from what I understand, 136 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:16.040 that's how we got into this. 137 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:20.839 The name Wanda might sound familiar, open my mouth. 138 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:22.319 They have threatened to kill Wanda. 139 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:25.639 I had to say, Mark some Wanda's throw and I 140 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.199 asked Wanda what happened to her throw? 141 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:30.600 And she wouldn't tell me. I don't know she was 142 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:31.879 scared to tell Mayor Wan. 143 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:36.759 That's from the interrogation of Connie Martin, a suspect turned 144 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:40.320 witness in the criminal investigation against the family accused of 145 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:44.480 kidnapping and murdering Kelly Wilson. At first. Tammy says she 146 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:48.279 has no inkling about the abuse allegations leveled against Wanda 147 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:50.279 and the curs She. 148 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.240 Was real strict with her kids, and that's why I 149 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:53.720 thought she was a good mother, you know. I mean, 150 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:55.639 I was, like, never seen her whip on. Her kids 151 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:58.279 are knitting, you know, but she kept her kids in line. 152 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:01.039 You know, they were pretty decent. I know the oldest 153 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:04.240 one acted out a lot and got sent home from 154 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:07.759 school a lot, like stabbing kids with orks and shit 155 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:10.080 like that. But other than that, I mean, I don't 156 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:13.200 know anything else about her. I know that when she married. 157 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:16.559 When I met her, she wouldn't Maccurr. Her name was Hicks. 158 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:22.159 And then she started dating Wendell. And Don knew Wendell through. 159 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:25.120 You know, gilm were small town, all them guys, they 160 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:26.240 were all raised together. 161 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:30.720 Later investigators would claim that Wendell was the ringleader of 162 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:32.600 the Kerr satanic cult in Gilmer. 163 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.879 We had went to school together. I never had sex 164 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:41.559 with none of the none of the Curve women, and 165 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:43.879 uh never cared too. 166 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.600 You know, they don't hang out together, but they all know. 167 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:51.039 We all know each other because it's such a small town. 168 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:54.440 Don's oh, I know him. That's that's Wendell Kerr, you know. 169 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:58.000 And sometimes Don would say, hey, you know whatever. And 170 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:00.639 then she was like, I'm gonna get I'm going to 171 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:02.360 marry Wendell, and I was like, oh. 172 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:02.919 That's sweet. 173 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:05.639 I helped her get ready for her wedding to him, 174 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:09.799 and I went out to the curR house, the old man, 175 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:12.440 old woman Curve the mam and daddy. I was at 176 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:16.600 their house one time for the wedding and we were there, 177 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:20.039 saw me an hour, an hour and a half. 178 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.679 Maybe I went out to wedding one time. They was 179 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:30.240 a preacher window wing his wife got married. That kind 180 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:32.440 of I did, just went to wedding the first thing, 181 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:34.799 you know, I'm a cannibal to eating people in the 182 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:36.559 bag that had a witch and circle. 183 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:40.600 That was the only time I've ever really actually hung 184 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:43.480 out with the Curves, you know. I mean other than that, 185 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:46.360 I don't know anything else about them. I've never been 186 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:49.840 around them except for hey, at the bus stop or whatever, 187 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.720 you know, with our kids. Them kids were good kids. 188 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:53.080 I thought. 189 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:56.639 You know, Timmy's son Raymond wasn't really friends with the 190 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:58.720 Hicks kids for a reason. 191 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:01.639 Yeah. They lived across the sidewalk from us up here 192 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:05.039 at the government housing. One of them was older than me, 193 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:06.799 and I think one of them was younger than me. 194 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:10.559 We would play every now and again. We didn't always 195 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:14.200 get along because at one point Don had bought their bicycle. 196 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:16.799 But I remember I came home from school one day 197 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:19.960 I've been wanting a bicycle, and I went to my 198 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:22.320 room and I had two bicycles, and I remember like 199 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:25.360 being really excited, like those are both mine, and they're like, yeah, 200 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:28.320 you got two bikes. But when I would go outside, 201 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:32.279 they bought it from the neighbor. So the neighbor kids, 202 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:35.919 they still looked at it as that was their bikes. 203 00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:39.639 You know. We would argue over those bicycles. But I 204 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:42.679 was like, I said, I was the only child I 205 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:45.080 won't used to sharing, And I was like, hold up, 206 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.799 I got two bikes, the brand new, and I gotta 207 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:50.240 let them ride one of them, like, you know, so 208 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:52.759 we really like argue and fight over those bikes. 209 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:56.559 One day, the Hicks kids were gone. Wendell Kerr and 210 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:59.960 Wanda Hicks had just gotten married in a ceremony outside 211 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:03.799 the curR home on Cherokee Trace. Days later, child Protective 212 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:06.720 Services removed the cur and Hicks kids from the home. 213 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:11.080 The Curves have been described as quote marginal characters in Gilmer, 214 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.720 so most people around town probably didn't even notice that 215 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:16.840 some country folks lost their kids. 216 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:20.440 Ley Tope Wendell's kids a way because he had been 217 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:22.759 accused of lessening his kids. 218 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:25.799 The first time they came to the door, me and 219 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:29.039 Don were asleep and they were wanting us to go 220 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:33.039 down to the police station top and we agreed and 221 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:36.919 we went and that's when they just started asking questions 222 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:40.639 about the curves, and basically it was just, you know, 223 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:43.799 have you ever seen Wanda Kerr hit her kids? And 224 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:47.279 have you ever seen any kind of abuse? And I 225 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:50.360 was like, no, you know, yeah, she's just a young girl. 226 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:53.480 It's got all these little babies, and you know, I 227 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:55.440 thought she was a pretty decent mom. 228 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:58.639 The two Hicks boys were placed with foster mom Barbara 229 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:02.120 Bass and her husband Karls. If the name Barbara Bass 230 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:06.039 sounds familiar, she was mentioned in episode three. The Basses 231 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:08.279 were in their early forties and lived in a big 232 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:10.600 country home a little more than half an hour from 233 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:13.919 gilmert They would have been empty nesters if they hadn't 234 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:17.559 filled the house with foster children. Barbara described herself as 235 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:21.480 very down to earth, very basic and trying to help people. 236 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:26.919 She had been the East Texas Foster Parents of the Year. 237 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:28.960 I think the year before. 238 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:33.159 That was Melvin Dodd, the founding member of the Justice 239 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:37.240 for Kelly Wilson Committee. Back then, there was this amusement 240 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:41.000 park in Shreveport, Louisiana, just across the state line from Texas. 241 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:43.399 I remember the commercials when I was a kid and 242 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:47.879 always wanted to go. Never got to. Raymond did though. 243 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:52.519 Our church went out to an amusement park called Hamil Park, 244 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:57.159 and while we were there, the Hicks kids were in 245 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:01.679 Foster Hume and we saw it with their foster parents 246 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:05.519 our church group, and they'd waved or something and they 247 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.240 wouldn't let us talk to them. Like the foster parents 248 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:10.000 that they were with were kind of like, hey, y'all 249 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:12.279 need to keep those distance type thing. And I was 250 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:14.480 a kid who were just kind of like waved at 251 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:18.440 each other. When they asked one of those Hicks boys, 252 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:21.799 like how do you know that kid? They were like 253 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.679 he was our neighbor. And then they were like, well, 254 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.759 did y'all's parents abuse him too? And one of them 255 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:31.000 were like yeah, so one of them kids and lied 256 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:35.519 to her or whatever falster parents they were with, saying 257 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:40.320 that I had been molested with them, like all like 258 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:42.840 in some big group or something like some kid orgy 259 00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:46.879 or something. I don't know, like that's how we got 260 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:47.759 drawled into the. 261 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:52.480 Whole myth Raymond never should have waved to those Hicks kids. 262 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:55.639 What he describes as a typical childhood. 263 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:59.799 It was school, church, family, school, church, family, like those 264 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:01.879 my life for the first seven years. 265 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:11.919 That life as he knew it was over from imperative entertainment. 266 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:32.840 I'm Wes Ferguson. This is Deviltown. This is Chapter five. 267 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:38.559 Raymond Raymond Smith is thirty six years old now. He's skinny, 268 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:43.039 dark hair, dark eyes. After bouncing around some he recently 269 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.879 moved back to Gilmour and lives with his stepdad, Don Holman. 270 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:49.720 In the early nineties, during the Kerr and Kelly Wilson investigations, 271 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.240 Raymond was said to be a smart and inquisitive little boy. 272 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:56.919 I can remember my mom had set me down on 273 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:58.960 a back porch one day up there, and she said 274 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:03.600 something along the line like somebody wants to come speak 275 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:07.440 with you or something like that. Whoever it is comes 276 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.000 to talk to us, be honest with them, telling them 277 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:13.399 the truth. And when I asked questions. 278 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:15.919 In the very, very very beginning, they kept the cops 279 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.919 kept saying. He said, Okay, if we let somebody talk 280 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:22.279 to Raymond at school, I said, go go talk to him. 281 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.840 They questioned Raymond five times. I mean, how many damn 282 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:28.960 times were they gonna go questioning until he said something? 283 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:32.519 I mean basically is what it was. You know, they 284 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:33.960 weren't gonna quit going up there. 285 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:37.039 Probably about like a week or so after that, I 286 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.919 was playing in the front yard one day and sheriff's 287 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:41.879 apartment pulled up. 288 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:45.240 That's when I get a knock at the door and 289 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.000 they're coming to take my kids away. 290 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:52.679 They had a mixed stack of papers they told my mom. 291 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.279 They were like, uh, we're here to take the kids. 292 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:02.200 I wasn't frightened at the time because none was a patrolman, 293 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.160 you know, like so I wasn't scared of pouense. 294 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.119 Don happened to be out of town that day. Raymond's 295 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:13.039 little brother, Luther, only two years old, was absolutely terrified. 296 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:16.640 I will never forget them taken him from us and 297 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:20.440 him screaming at the top as once, I. 298 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:25.920 Want my daddy, I want my daddy. They told us, 299 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.079 they said, you know, uh, you can get something for you, 300 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:31.839 you know, go grab you a toy. You can get 301 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:35.759 your brother a toy. And uh, I grabbed a Bible 302 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:39.440 that the church told give me. It was it was 303 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:43.000 blue and silver, had my name Raymond Smith printed on it, 304 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:47.440 like real nice professional like printed into it, and uh, 305 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:58.920 I grabbed Luther's pillow and then they hauled us down 306 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:03.640 to rain and it took us to a Falster family. 307 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.559 That first family. They were real nice. We were out 308 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:12.599 of our element, but it was a normal, you know situation. 309 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:16.119 They bring me, h I think they did bring me 310 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.440 for a visit with my mom and them, my mom 311 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:23.119 and Don, and then usually it was to go see 312 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:25.799 Ang goere. She was ahead of the case at time. 313 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:29.359 We've talked about a Gore throughout the series. She was 314 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.720 the first CPS worker to discover abuse in the Kerr family. 315 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.599 Now a gore was protecting Raymond also. 316 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:38.880 Then there was a day that they brought me up 317 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.119 there and Gore was like, I want to introduce you 318 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:44.640 to a friend of mine and she wants to ask 319 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.720 you some questions. And then next thing I know, we're 320 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:49.839 like going to get in the van. There ain't no 321 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.480 seats in the van, and they're like, I want you 322 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:54.640 to lay down. They had me laid down in the 323 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:58.519 back and Barbara Vass was laid down there beside me. 324 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.279 Yes, that Barbara Bass, the foster parent. She had come 325 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.119 to the CPS office in her forge van to help 326 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.759 angre coax some information out of Raymond. 327 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.400 And she said, well, you know, you don't be scared. 328 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.599 We're just gonna ask you some questions this and that, 329 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:23.799 and A Gore was driving and Debbie Mianto was in 330 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:29.200 the passenger seat. I believe we rode out of the 331 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:32.880 CPS office and at that time what they were asking 332 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:36.599 us about was all about being molested or touched or 333 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.720 something along the lines of that, you know, And I 334 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:40.680 tell them no. They say, well, did they touch he? 335 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.039 I say no, I ain't never been touched or nothing 336 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:46.319 like that, Like, you know, where's this? You know, like 337 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:48.200 when you're a kid, you don't realize what the hell's 338 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:53.960 going on. But that ended up turning into Barbara basketting 339 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:58.400 behind me and wrapping her arms around me, and then 340 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.559 she took her legs, hold my legs down, and she 341 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:05.559 take her thumb and sticking in my rib cane chair 342 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:08.720 and rub up and down on my ribs. 343 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.079 Barbara Bass, who died in twenty seventeen, was using the 344 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:17.680 holding technique, a controversial therapy of restraining kids like in 345 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:20.240 a bear hug that was supposed to help them form 346 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:23.680 a bond with their foster parents. But Barbara Bass had 347 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.640 adapted the holding technique for her own purposes. 348 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:31.440 Apparently there was some kind of radical theory about getting 349 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:35.119 kits to disclose things they wouldn't normally disclose through this 350 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:36.160 holding technique. 351 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:39.640 This is former Assistant Attorney General Shane Phelps. 352 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:43.599 Which in what I came to understand about this holding 353 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.359 technique was that it was just torture. 354 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:48.319 What is the holding technique? 355 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.119 The theory behind it, I guess is that the children 356 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:56.160 have to be I guess, forced to disclose. They hold 357 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.440 them tightly, like I mean, it's a crime. Actually it's on. 358 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.039 They're holding these children tightly and they will not let 359 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:06.359 go of them until they disclose what they think this 360 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:07.680 child has to disclose. 361 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:11.400 I remember I was saying no, no, you know, and 362 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.079 I'm squirming. I'm fighting with her, and then she would 363 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:20.920 ask me questions repetitively, you know, did your parents do this? 364 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:22.720 Did they touch you? Did they touch you? 365 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.240 At some point, Raymond says, A Gore climbed into the 366 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:29.400 back of the van with him and Barbara Bass and. 367 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:31.519 Gore was in the back there and she was holding 368 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:35.079 my legs down because I was fighting and swirming and everything. 369 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.920 Barbara couldn't hold me down or whatnot. At that time, 370 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.720 they had a big billboard sign right there where the 371 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:43.920 subway is now here in Gimmer there was a big 372 00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:48.119 billboard sign and it said Kelly Wilson, you know, And 373 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:51.640 I remember seeing that when we were leaving the CPS office. 374 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:53.480 I was laid down in that van and I can see, 375 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.880 you know, the Gary Queen sign. Now I've seen that 376 00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.119 Kelly Wilson sign. And the next thing I know, all 377 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.440 I can see is tree. You know, we're on some 378 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:03.119 old top Roadbacker. 379 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.920 Barbara Bass and the caseworkers and Gore and Debbie Minshew 380 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.839 had driven Raymond out of town into the woods. 381 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:11.559 Well what the hell are these people doing? You know? 382 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:17.440 And so they kept rubbing my ribs and asking me questions, 383 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:19.680 you know, did did your mom? And Donald less few 384 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:24.519 and uh I was, you know, no, no, no, no. 385 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:28.759 Finally I said yes. And when I would tell her yes, 386 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:32.880 she would stop rubbing my ribs, you know, and then 387 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.119 like kind of pan for me, like oh, it's okay, 388 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:40.480 you know, nobody's gonna hurt you no more. We're here now. 389 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:43.039 And then and then she'd start right back again, you know, 390 00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:49.359 asking more stuff. And I remember feeling like I remember 391 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:51.680 feeling like they were gonna kill me or something like 392 00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:57.200 because I didn't know what's going on, and so I 393 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:00.559 said something like along the lines where I said Kelly 394 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:02.160 Wilson's name, I've seen that sign. 395 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:07.519 Okay, did you hear that right there? That was the 396 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.640 first time Kelly Wilson, the missing teenager, was ever connected 397 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:15.039 to the Kirk case. Raymond was confessing to anything and 398 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.440 everything to stop the women from hurting him when he 399 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:23.119 blurted out Kelly's name. Raymond would eventually tell Barbara Bass 400 00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:26.200 that he also took part in something much bigger. 401 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:29.559