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<v Speaker 1>What do you get when one of the most respected

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<v Speaker 1>television journalists of our time takes on one of television's

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<v Speaker 1>greatest writers. What you get is sailing a Jenny into

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<v Speaker 1>the Twilight Zone with TV's first visionary, the new book

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<v Speaker 1>by Alan Sepinwar. Now, if you've been part of the

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<v Speaker 1>Twilight Zone fan community over the past few years, you

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<v Speaker 1>might have seen Alan around at events like Sailing Fest,

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<v Speaker 1>speaking to fans and doing the work behind the scenes

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<v Speaker 1>to bring this book together. And now all of that

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<v Speaker 1>effort has paid off and the book is finally available

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<v Speaker 1>for pre order. Now I'll put the links to Alan's

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<v Speaker 1>website and a pre order link in the show notes

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<v Speaker 1>so you can pre order your copy after you've listened

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<v Speaker 1>to my conversation with Alan Sepinwall. It is my great

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<v Speaker 1>pleasure to welcome to the Twilight Zone Podcast, mister Alan Sepenwall. Alan, welcome,

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<v Speaker 1>It's good to see you. Tom.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a pleasure to see you again.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm so appreciative that you sent me a copy of

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<v Speaker 1>the book. I've been really looking forward to reading it now.

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<v Speaker 1>I haven't read it yet for a very specific reason,

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<v Speaker 1>because I think whenever a work like this comes out

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<v Speaker 1>that is really covering road sailing and his life and

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<v Speaker 1>various other things things. Yeah, I want to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>approach this on a couple of fronts, So I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to come into it relatively cold and talk to you

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<v Speaker 1>about the kind of research aspect of it and what

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<v Speaker 1>went into making it. And then maybe when the book

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<v Speaker 1>comes out, you can come back on and we can

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<v Speaker 1>get into the details of what's actually in it after

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<v Speaker 1>I've read it. Would that be okay?

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<v Speaker 2>I would absolutely love to thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>What I find really interesting about your career, Alan is

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<v Speaker 1>you know you have spanned some really big changes in

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<v Speaker 1>the industry, not in just what we're watching, but how

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<v Speaker 1>it's being reported. Could you give us a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>an overview of your career and some of your highlights.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, I've been doing this. Last week was the thirtieth

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<v Speaker 2>anniversary of my career as a professional journalist, so I've

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<v Speaker 2>been doing this for a minute. I started at the

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<v Speaker 2>Star Ledger newspaper New Jersey, which perhaps some of your

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<v Speaker 2>listeners might recognize as the paper that Tony Soprano would

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<v Speaker 2>go and pick up at the end of his drive

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<v Speaker 2>at the start of every season of that show. So

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<v Speaker 2>it was the big paper in New Jersey, So I

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<v Speaker 2>happened to be there right as The Sopranos was about

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<v Speaker 2>to debut. Therefore, right as television, as we talked about

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<v Speaker 2>it was really going to change. So I had a

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<v Speaker 2>front row seat to that, To the Wire, Deadwood, mad Men,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of these big shows from the turn of

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<v Speaker 2>the century into the last few decades. After I was

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<v Speaker 2>at The Star Ledger for fourteen years, I then moved

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<v Speaker 2>on because the Internet made newspapers more challenging. I started

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<v Speaker 2>writing for a couple of different websites, neither of which

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<v Speaker 2>unfortunately exist, which means, you know, one of the perils

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<v Speaker 2>of being an internet journalist is sometimes your work just disappears,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm doing what I can to try to recover that.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I spent about six years writing about TV

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<v Speaker 2>for Rolling Stone, and now I run my own website,

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<v Speaker 2>What's allan Watching, And to me, the big change in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of TV coverage is not just the amount of

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<v Speaker 2>TV but the way we write about it. So when

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<v Speaker 2>I started on this in the nineties, you would basically

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<v Speaker 2>you'd get like one episode of a show on a

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<v Speaker 2>video cassette because that's how long ago this was, and

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<v Speaker 2>you would have to based on a single episode of

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<v Speaker 2>a television show, you would have to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>determine is this show good? Is this show bad? Is

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<v Speaker 2>this worth your time? You know? And you know, among

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<v Speaker 2>the things I sort of read in doing my research

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<v Speaker 2>on Serling was you would have these people writing reviews

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<v Speaker 2>of The Twilight Zone where they had just seen where

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<v Speaker 2>is Everybody? Fortunately, whereas Everybody is a really great pilot,

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<v Speaker 2>so you know, they had something to go on. But

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<v Speaker 2>there's been so many shows over the years where it's

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<v Speaker 2>like the first show is not really representative, and then

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<v Speaker 2>you guess wrong, and so the big change is suddenly

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<v Speaker 2>we started a getting more episodes, but be you would

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<v Speaker 2>write about individual episodes what I guess we call now

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<v Speaker 2>the recap, so it's you know, I would analyze every

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<v Speaker 2>episode of The Sopranos, every episode of Breaking Bad, every

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<v Speaker 2>episode of mad Men. My writing on a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>shows has now been collected into different books. But like

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<v Speaker 2>just on because the thing is people wanted to know

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<v Speaker 2>less what should I watch? Than Hey, I watched this

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<v Speaker 2>great thing. What else can I think about it? And

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<v Speaker 2>that's that's obviously something that you're doing, Tom. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>the people who listen to the show they've seen these episodes,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, many more times than I have, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>having written this book, and yet they still want to

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<v Speaker 2>sort of come and dig in for more and get

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<v Speaker 2>more of it, a sense more of a deep dive

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<v Speaker 2>into what each episode, the story behind it, at what

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<v Speaker 2>it means. And so you're getting recappers, you're getting podcasters,

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<v Speaker 2>you're getting all of these other ways in which people

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<v Speaker 2>can engage in television besides just you know, eight hundred

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<v Speaker 2>words in a newspaper column.

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<v Speaker 1>And I suppose that not all of us have people

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<v Speaker 1>in our lives who we can talk to these things about.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think one of the things I always appreciate

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<v Speaker 1>is with these podcasts and so on, is that it

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<v Speaker 1>is almost like having that friends who you can kind

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<v Speaker 1>of speak about these shows with, isn't it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, No, it absolutely is. Actually just launched my latest

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<v Speaker 2>podcast called TV is Good. And I have a friend

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<v Speaker 2>named Catherine van Aarondonk who's also a critic, who lives

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<v Speaker 2>one town over for me in New Jersey, and so

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<v Speaker 2>we get together and talk about TV all the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and eventually we're like, well, let's just do this, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>as a show. But a lot of my friends in

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<v Speaker 2>this world, and certainly a lot of my fellow TV

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<v Speaker 2>fans are people I met online. My wife always tells

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<v Speaker 2>the story about how, you know, I once took on

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<v Speaker 2>a trip to Chicago, of all places, to meet a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of online fans of the nineties cop show Homicide

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<v Speaker 2>Life on the Street because we were all unlike the

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<v Speaker 2>same you know, mailing list serve about it, and eventually

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<v Speaker 2>we decided to get together in Chicago was roughly the

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<v Speaker 2>center of America, and so it was a place we

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<v Speaker 2>could all easily fly to. But the Internet allowed that.

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<v Speaker 2>Otherwise I would have like not known anyone who really

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<v Speaker 2>was into that show.

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<v Speaker 1>Looking down here as you may, I can see the

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<v Speaker 1>people who you have spoken to in the industry throughout

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<v Speaker 1>your career, people like David Chase, Vince Gilligan, and so on.

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<v Speaker 1>Was Rod Sailing even if you weren't going in to

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<v Speaker 1>have a conversation about him? Was he something that would

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<v Speaker 1>just pop up throughout these conversations with these creators quite

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<v Speaker 1>naturally over the years. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean David Chase, who created the Sopranos, is obviously

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<v Speaker 2>a big Twilight Zone fan. It's a huge influence on him.

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<v Speaker 2>He made a movie after the show ended called Not

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<v Speaker 2>Fade Away, where the main character like starts a garage

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<v Speaker 2>band and I think they're called the Twilight Zones. And

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<v Speaker 2>in the very last episode of the Sopranos, what do

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<v Speaker 2>you call it? The bard is playing in the background,

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<v Speaker 2>so you hear what's Julius Moomer's agent saying, like the

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<v Speaker 2>networks are looking for quality and the writer is top

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<v Speaker 2>shelf or whatever the line is. And then in another

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<v Speaker 2>episode someone compares or Tony compares his life to Rocky

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<v Speaker 2>Valentine and a nice place to visit because sort of

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<v Speaker 2>everything is going a little too well and he's not

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<v Speaker 2>enjoying it. So that was a big influence, and so

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<v Speaker 2>that would come up, and you know, with Matthew Weiner,

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<v Speaker 2>who created mad Men, twilight Zone was a big influence there.

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<v Speaker 2>It was mentioned on the show, and so these things

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<v Speaker 2>would come up in conversation long before I ever got

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<v Speaker 2>the assignment to write this book, and long before I

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<v Speaker 2>felt frankly confident enough in my own twilight Zone knowledge

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<v Speaker 2>to feel like, oh, you know, I could, I could

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<v Speaker 2>go toe to toe with David. And now we you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we will text sometimes about Twilight Zone and about his

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<v Speaker 2>own interactions with with Sterling and all of that, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh, yeah, now I get what he's been

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<v Speaker 2>saying all these years.

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<v Speaker 1>So whenever a new book about the Twilight Zone or

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<v Speaker 1>Rod Saling comes out, I always wonder what its focus

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be. How is it different from what's

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<v Speaker 1>come out before. So how would you describe your book?

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, why did you decide to write it?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'll take I'll take the second part first. This

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<v Speaker 2>was a case. Often when I write a book, the

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<v Speaker 2>idea comes from me and I say, oh, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I really want to do something about the Sopranos. I

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<v Speaker 2>did a book called The Revolutionist Televised, which is just

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<v Speaker 2>me telling the stories of a dozen shows from the

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<v Speaker 2>turn of the century that helped sort of transform how

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<v Speaker 2>we look at TV. In this case, an editor at

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<v Speaker 2>Hachett Books reached out to me and said, hey, I

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<v Speaker 2>think the time is right for a new Serling biography.

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<v Speaker 2>There hasn't been. There have been a lot of like

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<v Speaker 2>really great books, all of which I read, that are

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<v Speaker 2>authoritative in different ways, like Nick Perez's book you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's covering the whole filmography. That's wonderful, and it definitely

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<v Speaker 2>gets into biographical details within it, but there hadn't been

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<v Speaker 2>like a full proper biography in a long time, and

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<v Speaker 2>so my editor said, hey, would you like to do it?

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<v Speaker 2>And the thing about having the job of TV critic

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<v Speaker 2>in the twenty first century is you really don't have

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<v Speaker 2>time to go back and watch old stuff unless you

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<v Speaker 2>have a professional excuse for it. And so sometimes, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I will pick a book half as much just because

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<v Speaker 2>I want an excuse to write watch it again. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got a book of At the Wire coming out

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<v Speaker 2>next year, and part of it was like, you know what,

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<v Speaker 2>I really want to watch the Wire, and I can't

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<v Speaker 2>really justify it unless someone is paying me for it,

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<v Speaker 2>So I will do that. So twilet Zones the show.

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<v Speaker 2>I knew. It's a show I'd watched a fair amount

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<v Speaker 2>as a kid. Certainly hadn't seen every episode, had never

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<v Speaker 2>seen Night Gallery other than one or two episodes, hadn't

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<v Speaker 2>seen any of the fifties teleplay, and all of these

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<v Speaker 2>things were sort of on my I would love to

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<v Speaker 2>get to this one day, and then it became harder

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<v Speaker 2>and harder to find that one day, and so on

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<v Speaker 2>an editor comes to me and says, hey, would you

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<v Speaker 2>like to write a book about Rod Serling. My first

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<v Speaker 2>thought is, hey, this is a fascinating person who is

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<v Speaker 2>among the most influential people who ever work in the medium.

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<v Speaker 2>I've devoted my life to covering I would love to

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<v Speaker 2>learn and write more about him. And the other is, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>if I do this book, I can finally watch all

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<v Speaker 2>of The Twilight Zone and all of everything else. So

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<v Speaker 2>that was that was really an exciting prospect for me.

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<v Speaker 2>And then once I started into it, I was given

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<v Speaker 2>sort of carte blanche to do whatever I wanted, and

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<v Speaker 2>I started, you know, watching everything. I started reading everything

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<v Speaker 2>that was available and watching interviews of his and all

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<v Speaker 2>of that. And the thing that there are two things

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<v Speaker 2>kept coming up over and over again. One is just

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<v Speaker 2>how autobiographical Rod's work is, and it's just he's putting

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<v Speaker 2>himself out there. He said once or twice, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>all my characters talk the same and all of them

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<v Speaker 2>are me, and that something you've talked about. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>something that's really kind of clear in his work. He's

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<v Speaker 2>taking his feelings and his life and putting it out there.

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<v Speaker 2>And I realized I could structure the book so that

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<v Speaker 2>every chapter was framed by me writing about a different

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<v Speaker 2>you know, either Twilight Zone episode or teleplay or Night

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<v Speaker 2>Gallery episode, whatever that he had written that in some

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<v Speaker 2>way applied to that particular moment in his life. So

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<v Speaker 2>the first chapter of the book is about his childhood

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<v Speaker 2>in Binghamton. So before I get into that, I write

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<v Speaker 2>about walking distance, you know, when we're talking about Night Gallery,

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<v Speaker 2>I write about their tearing down Tim Riley's bar. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a teleplay he did that almost nobody remembers, called Exit

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<v Speaker 2>from a Plane in Flight, which was one of the

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<v Speaker 2>things he did for the Chrysler Theater in the mid sixties,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's basically inspired by the fact that he did

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<v Speaker 2>a parachute jump with the eighty second Airborn like to

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<v Speaker 2>celebrate his fortieth birthday, and he used that as inspiration

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<v Speaker 2>for something and I looked at that, like, well, this

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<v Speaker 2>is kind of a metaphor for that willlderness period in

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<v Speaker 2>between Twilight Zone and Night Gallery for him, And so

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<v Speaker 2>I use that. And so it's me trying to use

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<v Speaker 2>his own work to tell his story. And that's part

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<v Speaker 2>of what I did and the other thing that I

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<v Speaker 2>thought about, And again it goes back to your question

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<v Speaker 2>before about you know, all of these people I've known

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<v Speaker 2>over the years who keep bringing up Twilight Zone. Is

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<v Speaker 2>we all kind of know that Twilight Zone was a

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<v Speaker 2>big influence on popular culture, but no one is necessarily

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<v Speaker 2>like put that all together in one place. And because

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<v Speaker 2>of what I've been doing over my career in all,

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<v Speaker 2>because of all the people I know, and because of

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<v Speaker 2>the reputation I've developed, I was able to talk to

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<v Speaker 2>almost all of the big people who were in some

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<v Speaker 2>way inspired by the show. So again, I talked to

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<v Speaker 2>David Chase, I've talked to Vince Gilligan who made Breaking Bad.

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<v Speaker 2>I talked to Gierymal del Toro. I talked to Jj Abrams.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, maybe the most sort of overt Sirtling fan

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<v Speaker 2>of them all, Damon Lindeloff, who co created Lost with

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<v Speaker 2>him Ben Stiller, huge huge Twilight Zone fan, big and

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<v Speaker 2>fl luents on Severance and a lot of the other

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<v Speaker 2>work he does. Even some people you wouldn't necessarily expect

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<v Speaker 2>to be like influenced by Serling. Rob Mack, who created

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<v Speaker 2>Always Sun in Philadelphia and is now with Ryan Reylds,

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<v Speaker 2>co owner of Wrexham. I was at an event with

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<v Speaker 2>him and he asked what I had going on, and

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<v Speaker 2>I said, while I'm writing this book about Serling, and

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<v Speaker 2>he kind of grabbed my shirt and said, oh god,

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<v Speaker 2>I have to talk to you for that. Like I'm

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<v Speaker 2>obsessed with Rod Serling, and so Rob Mack is in

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<v Speaker 2>the book with a lot of smart things to say.

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<v Speaker 1>I talked to.

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<v Speaker 2>Charlie Brooker, who created Black Mirror and openly admits, like

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just shamelessly ripping off Rod Serling. This show would

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<v Speaker 2>not exist if not for Twilight Zone, Ryan Johnson. There's

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<v Speaker 2>just a whole lot of people, and even some of

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<v Speaker 2>the people I didn't necessarily get to talk to, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Ryan Coogler, when he was doing interviews about Sinners, would say, well,

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<v Speaker 2>the big influence on this movie is the Last Rites

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<v Speaker 2>of Jeff Myrtlebank and twilight Zone is my favorite show.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was able to in some cases where I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't talk to people still use quotes from other stories.

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<v Speaker 2>I was able to. Steven Spielberg agreed to answer a

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<v Speaker 2>few questions by email, So that's in the book as well.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, obviously not just his experience directing Rod with

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<v Speaker 2>Night Gallery, but just the influence he had. And the

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<v Speaker 2>thing about Rod that you learn is he was really

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<v Speaker 2>self deprecating and to a degree really self doubting, and

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<v Speaker 2>he said over and over in the final years of

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<v Speaker 2>his life, no one's going to remember anything I did.

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<v Speaker 2>No one is going to like Twilight Zone is going

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<v Speaker 2>to go away, none of this is going to matter.

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<v Speaker 2>And part of my goal with the book was to

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<v Speaker 2>prove him wrong and to say, look, here are all

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<v Speaker 2>these people who have contributed to all of these things

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<v Speaker 2>that we love in the world, you know, and they're

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<v Speaker 2>all saying, no, I wouldn't be doing this without Rod.

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<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't be doing that without Rod.

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<v Speaker 1>And that is.

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<v Speaker 2>Something that I feel like as I was putting together

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<v Speaker 2>the book that was in some ways as much as

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<v Speaker 2>telling Rod's story itself, being able to tell the afterlife

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<v Speaker 2>of Serling on the Twilight Zone went up being really special.

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<v Speaker 1>I just like to maybe dig into some of your

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<v Speaker 1>areas of research then obviously course you know fast, and

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<v Speaker 1>maybe most importantly your interactions with the Sailing family.

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<v Speaker 2>They have there have been other books written about their

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<v Speaker 2>father which they were not crazy about, which you know,

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<v Speaker 2>take a somewhat negative slant to him, and so there

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<v Speaker 2>was some understandable wariness about someone coming in to tell

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<v Speaker 2>Rod's story. But I hung around, and I hung around,

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<v Speaker 2>and I sort of talked about my bona fides and

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<v Speaker 2>my credentials. And I did speak to Anne for a

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<v Speaker 2>long time. I did speak to Jody for a long time.

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<v Speaker 2>I spoke to Jeff Serling. I'd spoke to family friends. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>there's not a lot of people still around who knew

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<v Speaker 2>him personally, much less worked with him. I spoked to

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<v Speaker 2>Billy Moomey. I spoke to Janozoirk, who's one of the

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<v Speaker 2>Night Gallery directors, shortly before he died. But mostly it's

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<v Speaker 2>like the people who knew him are his daughters and

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<v Speaker 2>his daughter's friends. And I talked to a whole bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of that group, and they, you know, they shared a

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00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.240
<v Speaker 2>different version of Rod than you get from when you

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<v Speaker 2>watch the guy on TV. You know, sort of the

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<v Speaker 2>more relaxed and goofy guy that he was. And I

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<v Speaker 2>would like to think, and you know, obviously they will

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00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.720
<v Speaker 2>be the judges on that that the person I'm portraying

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<v Speaker 2>in this book is the person that they knew growing

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<v Speaker 2>up with.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of the authors I've spoken to, I kind

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<v Speaker 1>of love when they have stories about going to the

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<v Speaker 1>sailing archives. Did you do any of that during your research.

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<v Speaker 2>I went to UCLA a couple of times, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>based in New Jersey, so and I was limited somewhat

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<v Speaker 2>with some health things in terms of travel, so I

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<v Speaker 2>never went to Wisconsin, which I know is the big archive,

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<v Speaker 2>but I had researchers there who were able to go

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<v Speaker 2>through it to a degree. And also, obviously I had

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<v Speaker 2>the works of Nick Pereisy and Martin Graham's and other

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<v Speaker 2>people who'd been through a lot of that stuff, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I was able to incorporate some things from there

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<v Speaker 2>and give them credit for that. I spent about a

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00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:03.480
<v Speaker 2>week in going through their archives. I got some things

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<v Speaker 2>from the Serling archives at Antioch College. You know, obviously

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<v Speaker 2>Nick had a ton of stuff, and there was just

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00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:13.519
<v Speaker 2>it was really there's so much out there. And the

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00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:17.359
<v Speaker 2>great thing sometimes if you're writing a book about someone

340
00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:19.839
<v Speaker 2>who has been dead for fifty plus years at the

341
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:23.160
<v Speaker 2>time you're doing it, that's hard. But Serling saved all

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00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:26.319
<v Speaker 2>these papers, all these letters. He gave so many interviews.

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00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:29.920
<v Speaker 2>I was able to really just like getting a newspapers

344
00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:32.799
<v Speaker 2>dot com account for a year turned out to be

345
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.559
<v Speaker 2>just a spectacular investment because there were so many interviews

346
00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:39.960
<v Speaker 2>and so many quotes he gave, you know, just accessing

347
00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:41.759
<v Speaker 2>different archives. I have a friend who works at the

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00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:44.799
<v Speaker 2>Paley Center in New York, so any of the teleplays

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00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:48.039
<v Speaker 2>that aren't on YouTube or that are not necessarily available commercially,

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00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:51.319
<v Speaker 2>they've got a bunch of those. At one point I

351
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<v Speaker 2>wanted to write about at I think the sixty two Emmys,

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00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:57.519
<v Speaker 2>maybe the sixty three Emmys. One of the Emmys in

353
00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:00.319
<v Speaker 2>the early sixties, there was an infamous moment where he

354
00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:04.400
<v Speaker 2>did a Schlitz beer commercial that had been pre recorded

355
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.799
<v Speaker 2>and they showed it like on the giant screen in

356
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:10.920
<v Speaker 2>the theater, and Rod was kind of mortified because this

357
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:13.640
<v Speaker 2>was before he decided, you know, to go full pitch Man,

358
00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:16.599
<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to see what the commercial was, and

359
00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:20.200
<v Speaker 2>the Paley Center had the actual Emmy telecast and I

360
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.160
<v Speaker 2>was able to go and watch it and take notes

361
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.160
<v Speaker 2>on that, and you know, so that's the thing that

362
00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:27.039
<v Speaker 2>comes up in the book, and it really there's just

363
00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:30.559
<v Speaker 2>so much out there, like I could barely I could

364
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:32.920
<v Speaker 2>barely scratch the surface of my research in terms of

365
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.640
<v Speaker 2>what is in the book, because I got I turned

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00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.400
<v Speaker 2>in one very early edit that was you know, would

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00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.960
<v Speaker 2>have been the size of you know, the King James

368
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<v Speaker 2>Bible or something unabridged if that were to be published.

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<v Speaker 2>And my editor looked at and is like, this is wonderful, Alan,

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00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:50.200
<v Speaker 2>There's way too much detail in here. You really need

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<v Speaker 2>to pare this down a lot. And so, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I writers got to kill their darlings, and I tried

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<v Speaker 2>to pare it back to the bear essentials.

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<v Speaker 1>The battle is not what to put in, it's what

375
00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.680
<v Speaker 1>to leave out. So yeah, absolutely, yeah, I know.

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<v Speaker 2>I was at Ithaca and Kathy Michael, who's the archivist there,

377
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:10.400
<v Speaker 2>at one point, I'm going through the things and I

378
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.200
<v Speaker 2>discovered I knew that Rod had done like a radio

379
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.880
<v Speaker 2>interview with Regis Philbin shortly after the Twilight Zone ended,

380
00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:21.039
<v Speaker 2>and they had it on audio cassette, and I said, well,

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00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, do you guys have a tape player because

382
00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:24.440
<v Speaker 2>it did not occur to me to bring one. I

383
00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:27.519
<v Speaker 2>thought this might be digitized, and they said, well, we don't,

384
00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:29.279
<v Speaker 2>but we'll look for it, and they just, you know,

385
00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:32.240
<v Speaker 2>she and her partner Terry Beth, who worked in the

386
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:35.160
<v Speaker 2>archives with her, they just sort of scoured the library

387
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:38.960
<v Speaker 2>until they found a cassette player elsewhere. And I was

388
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:40.799
<v Speaker 2>able to listen to this interview, and I went up

389
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:44.599
<v Speaker 2>using several quotes from it that really that's the great

390
00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:47.359
<v Speaker 2>feeling is when you hear him say something that is

391
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.599
<v Speaker 2>the exact point you're trying to make. It's always better

392
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.440
<v Speaker 2>if it's Rod saying it, then if you're saying it

393
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.680
<v Speaker 2>as the writer, like he is the story, I am

394
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:55.440
<v Speaker 2>never the story.

395
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<v Speaker 1>Through viewing all this stuff first hand, to reveal about

396
00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:03.400
<v Speaker 1>road Saling as a person that maybe you hadn't been

397
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.440
<v Speaker 1>exposed to before, anything that quite surprised you.

398
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.400
<v Speaker 2>I knew the again, I knew the really broadest strokes

399
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:12.799
<v Speaker 2>about him before I did this. It's sometimes you go

400
00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:14.559
<v Speaker 2>and you write a book and you're an expert on

401
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:16.720
<v Speaker 2>it already. That's been the case for me for most

402
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:18.640
<v Speaker 2>of what I'd done. This was one where I had

403
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:21.960
<v Speaker 2>to make myself an expert, and so I was learning

404
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.119
<v Speaker 2>a ton along the way. And so I knew he

405
00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:27.000
<v Speaker 2>had fought in World War Two, but not really any

406
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:28.920
<v Speaker 2>of the details of it. And then you read something

407
00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.559
<v Speaker 2>like his you know, first Squad, first Platoon, that story

408
00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:34.960
<v Speaker 2>that he wrote in college that the Strand magazine published

409
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.599
<v Speaker 2>a few years ago, and you realize, oh, like this,

410
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:40.599
<v Speaker 2>this was just utterly traumatic that he would have went

411
00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:43.680
<v Speaker 2>through something like this, And you can see that trauma

412
00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:50.079
<v Speaker 2>and that sense of both guilt but also like difficulty

413
00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:53.519
<v Speaker 2>accepting that humanity was capable of these things. That is

414
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:57.400
<v Speaker 2>suffused throughout his work. That's there all the time, regardless

415
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.400
<v Speaker 2>of whatever else he's writing about. This sort of of

416
00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:03.519
<v Speaker 2>how can people do this to each other? You know,

417
00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:07.400
<v Speaker 2>and I wish they couldn't is always there. I you know,

418
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:09.640
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know anything about his I knew he I

419
00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:12.039
<v Speaker 2>knew of him as Jewish, so I didn't know he

420
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:14.640
<v Speaker 2>had raised his children, he and Carol had raised the

421
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:18.920
<v Speaker 2>children not as Jewish, and he had not actually converted himself.

422
00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:21.720
<v Speaker 2>But like I did not know, for instance, about his

423
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:24.680
<v Speaker 2>like deep, deep love of Christmas, which is obviously a

424
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.599
<v Speaker 2>thing you see all the time in the show, not

425
00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:30.920
<v Speaker 2>only in Twilight Zone but Night Gallery. The teleplays a

426
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:32.920
<v Speaker 2>few Stirling fests to go. I thought it was great

427
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.000
<v Speaker 2>when you did the performance of No Christmas is here,

428
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:39.880
<v Speaker 2>Like that's wonderful. Like this this idea that this man,

429
00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:41.759
<v Speaker 2>because of the day in which he was born, but

430
00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:44.279
<v Speaker 2>also the country in which he lived, fell in love

431
00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:46.599
<v Speaker 2>with this holiday that in theory was not for him,

432
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:48.279
<v Speaker 2>and yet he made it for him.

433
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:52.319
<v Speaker 1>Now you've mentioned the the industry creatives who you've interviewed

434
00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.279
<v Speaker 1>for the book and so on, which, yeah, I'm really

435
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:58.359
<v Speaker 1>quite pleased about because you know, we all know JJ

436
00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:00.680
<v Speaker 1>Abrams is a Twilight Zone five and then we might

437
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.640
<v Speaker 1>get a SoundBite here and there, but I've always wanted

438
00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:10.200
<v Speaker 1>to hear him and other people really get into that. Now.

439
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.240
<v Speaker 1>I remember speaking to Joseph Doherty when his book was

440
00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:17.359
<v Speaker 1>coming out, Yeah, the TV writer, And what kind of

441
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:22.039
<v Speaker 1>struck me was that he just loved talking about rod Sailing.

442
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:27.319
<v Speaker 1>You know, there was a joyous kind of geeky enthusiasm

443
00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:31.640
<v Speaker 1>when we spoke that It wasn't it almost wasn't really

444
00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:34.680
<v Speaker 1>about the book anymore. I mean, was that common with

445
00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:37.559
<v Speaker 1>the people that you spoke to, all these industry creatives.

446
00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:41.799
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely? I mean it's the thing is you find if

447
00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:44.079
<v Speaker 2>you do, if you do this job that I have

448
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.319
<v Speaker 2>for as long as I have, is sometimes it's really

449
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:48.319
<v Speaker 2>hard to get people to open up about their own work.

450
00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:51.400
<v Speaker 2>They can be guarded in different ways either because they

451
00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:54.319
<v Speaker 2>like David Chase wants the Sopranos to speak for itself.

452
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.599
<v Speaker 2>It's always like pulling teeth to get him to talk

453
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.079
<v Speaker 2>about theme or subtext or anything like that, you know.

454
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.319
<v Speaker 2>And then there's others who just for for whatever reason,

455
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.960
<v Speaker 2>don't really want to delve into what was motivating them

456
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.119
<v Speaker 2>to do this. But if you get them talking about

457
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.799
<v Speaker 2>something else that they love, they will not stop, you know.

458
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.559
<v Speaker 2>You know, giermal Do Toro, like we talked for an hour.

459
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.160
<v Speaker 2>We could have talked for like five hours, except he's

460
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:20.880
<v Speaker 2>ghirmal Do Toro and his other stuff going on. But

461
00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:23.400
<v Speaker 2>like he just you know, it's sort of like if

462
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:25.359
<v Speaker 2>you watch a Rod Serling interview and he opens his

463
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:28.920
<v Speaker 2>mouth and a monologue spills out, you know, just improvised.

464
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:30.839
<v Speaker 2>That's what it was like talking to these people. They

465
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:33.839
<v Speaker 2>had so many thoughts built up and so much passion

466
00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:36.880
<v Speaker 2>for it. I interviewed Pamela Adlon, who is an actress

467
00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:38.799
<v Speaker 2>and a writer and director. You might know her best.

468
00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.359
<v Speaker 2>She's the voice of Bobby Hill from King of the Hill,

469
00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:43.279
<v Speaker 2>and she, you know, she talked about a lot of things,

470
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:45.640
<v Speaker 2>including the fact that one of her daughters is named

471
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.480
<v Speaker 2>Rocky Valentine, because that's how obsessed she was with the

472
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:53.039
<v Speaker 2>Twilight Zone. And you just you get a lot of that.

473
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:57.519
<v Speaker 2>There's so much warmth and enthusiasm for this work and

474
00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:00.480
<v Speaker 2>the influence it had on them, sometimes as people, sometimes

475
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.960
<v Speaker 2>as creators, sometimes.

476
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:04.160
<v Speaker 1>As both we as well as that. One of the

477
00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:07.599
<v Speaker 1>things that I was really impressed with and quite delighted

478
00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:11.799
<v Speaker 1>by is how much you immersed yourself into the sailing

479
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:17.759
<v Speaker 1>fan community, going to Sailing Fest, speaking to those people.

480
00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:19.960
<v Speaker 1>So why do you think it was important to do that?

481
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:24.000
<v Speaker 2>Because I wanted to get a sense of what people

482
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.240
<v Speaker 2>why everybody loves the show, not just the famous people,

483
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:30.720
<v Speaker 2>because obviously there's millions upon millions who have watched this

484
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:35.279
<v Speaker 2>show over the sixty seven years since it debuted. And

485
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to just hear from Steven Spielberg. I

486
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:40.680
<v Speaker 2>don't want to just hear from Ryan Johnson. I want

487
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:43.640
<v Speaker 2>to hear from the people whose lives it's affected, and

488
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:45.160
<v Speaker 2>I want to get their take on it. And it

489
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.079
<v Speaker 2>was I got to go to serling Fest in twenty

490
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:50.079
<v Speaker 2>four and twenty five. I don't think I'm going to

491
00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:52.079
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately be able to be there at this summer's one.

492
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:54.880
<v Speaker 2>And love to everybody who's going to be there, who

493
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:56.839
<v Speaker 2>I got to meet, and many of them were quoted

494
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.279
<v Speaker 2>in the book, but it was I remember remember that

495
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:03.359
<v Speaker 2>first one especially, I went to like the ink wasn't

496
00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:05.400
<v Speaker 2>even dry on the contract for me to write the book,

497
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:07.880
<v Speaker 2>So all I had done at that point was I

498
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.920
<v Speaker 2>had rebinged the Twilight Zone, you know, some episodes, seeing

499
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.240
<v Speaker 2>again many for the first time, and everyone around me,

500
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:17.839
<v Speaker 2>yourself included, could kind of tell I didn't know what

501
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.039
<v Speaker 2>I was talking about then, but they were really nice

502
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.400
<v Speaker 2>about it. It was really like, it wasn't gatekeepery. It

503
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:26.839
<v Speaker 2>wasn't you know, how dare you be the person to

504
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:29.400
<v Speaker 2>come in here and do this. It was we really

505
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:32.680
<v Speaker 2>love twilight Zone. We want you to love twilight Zone too,

506
00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:34.160
<v Speaker 2>and if you're going to go out there and you're

507
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:37.759
<v Speaker 2>going to kind of spread the word, that's awesome. And

508
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:41.279
<v Speaker 2>I felt incredibly welcomed by everybody I got to meet,

509
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.160
<v Speaker 2>who had really insightful things. I could have just filled

510
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:47.480
<v Speaker 2>a book with, you know, their thoughts on the show,

511
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:50.440
<v Speaker 2>and it would have been great, and there's still a

512
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:52.440
<v Speaker 2>fair amount of that in there. But it was just

513
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:54.319
<v Speaker 2>it was so nice to be around these people and

514
00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:57.279
<v Speaker 2>to see the passion and to see people engaged not

515
00:25:57.440 --> 00:25:59.920
<v Speaker 2>just in talking about Twilight Zone, but you know, when

516
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:02.200
<v Speaker 2>you did, you're no Christmas this year reading or that

517
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:04.039
<v Speaker 2>you know they would screen an episode of The Loner

518
00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:08.200
<v Speaker 2>or do any of the things that they did, Like

519
00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:10.720
<v Speaker 2>it's people know and best for the Twilight Zone. But

520
00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:13.079
<v Speaker 2>there's so much there, and these people were willing and

521
00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:14.559
<v Speaker 2>excited to engage with.

522
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:16.480
<v Speaker 1>All of it, and I think a lot of them

523
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:19.200
<v Speaker 1>And this is one of the things that delighted me most.

524
00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:21.319
<v Speaker 1>Although I haven't read the COVID to COVI yet, I

525
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:24.960
<v Speaker 1>did kind of skim through the book. There's names in

526
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:28.559
<v Speaker 1>there that I recognize, you know, from people who listen

527
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:30.680
<v Speaker 1>to this show and so on, and it was just

528
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:33.519
<v Speaker 1>it was just so lovely and I really appreciate you

529
00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:33.960
<v Speaker 1>doing that.

530
00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:37.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I remember I was the very first day I

531
00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:39.720
<v Speaker 2>was there, the Friday of the twenty four fest. I'm

532
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:42.559
<v Speaker 2>wandering in the merch room and I'm I'm you wouldn't

533
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:43.839
<v Speaker 2>think it to look at me or to hear me

534
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:46.240
<v Speaker 2>speaking really loudly in my microphone. Right now, I'm kind

535
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:49.799
<v Speaker 2>of a shy person and so approaching strangers to like

536
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:52.119
<v Speaker 2>say hi, I'm so and so please talk to me.

537
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:55.640
<v Speaker 2>That's kind of a personal hell. And I'm just in

538
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:59.079
<v Speaker 2>the merch room and I see this guy walking around

539
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:00.720
<v Speaker 2>and I make myself off go up to him and

540
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:03.440
<v Speaker 2>say hi, and he says, you know, hi, I'm Andy Valentine.

541
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:06.319
<v Speaker 2>Nice to meet you. And Andy Yef. You know Andy.

542
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Andy basically became my tour guide into Serling fandom, and

543
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:12.920
<v Speaker 2>I just hung with him and his friends for several days,

544
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:16.480
<v Speaker 2>got so many great stories, so much like color that

545
00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:19.599
<v Speaker 2>winds up being in there, Harold Clark, you know, everybody

546
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:21.279
<v Speaker 2>else I got to meet as a result of that.

547
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:24.200
<v Speaker 2>It was really just a joy. And everyone was so

548
00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.920
<v Speaker 2>helpful and so nice, and the board was wonderful, Like

549
00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:31.799
<v Speaker 2>it was really, I really felt lucky to have as

550
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.200
<v Speaker 2>many people open themselves up to me in a way

551
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:39.079
<v Speaker 2>that they did not have to. And I'm eternally grateful

552
00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:40.000
<v Speaker 2>to everyone for that.

553
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:44.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so slight change of direction. Bough.

554
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

555
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:48.319
<v Speaker 1>In twenty sixteen, you wrote a book called TV. You

556
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:49.160
<v Speaker 1>co wrote TV.

557
00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:50.519
<v Speaker 2>The book, Yes, yeh.

558
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:55.359
<v Speaker 1>And it's it sets out to do a definitive ranking

559
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:58.720
<v Speaker 1>of the greatest television shows of all time. Now we

560
00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:02.240
<v Speaker 1>all have a good list, because it's a great inspiration

561
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:06.359
<v Speaker 1>for conversation, and I think disagreeing with them is as

562
00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:09.279
<v Speaker 1>much the point as agreeing with them, you know, Yes,

563
00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:12.519
<v Speaker 1>it's just there to kind of get people talking and stuff.

564
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Can you remember what position the Twilight Zone got.

565
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:20.160
<v Speaker 2>I think it's maybe eleven, maybe thirteenth. I would have

566
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:22.400
<v Speaker 2>to check it again. We're going back ten years, and

567
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:25.599
<v Speaker 2>I will confess again this was from before I was

568
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:27.960
<v Speaker 2>as steeped in the show as I am now. I

569
00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:30.599
<v Speaker 2>co wrote it with a longtime friend of mine who

570
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:32.799
<v Speaker 2>I worked with at the star Letgerd named Matt's Dollar Sites.

571
00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:36.599
<v Speaker 2>Matt was always mister twilight Zone, and so I think

572
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:38.759
<v Speaker 2>that was one of those where he was pushing it

573
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:40.480
<v Speaker 2>as far up the hill as he could get it,

574
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:42.880
<v Speaker 2>and I was saying, okay, sure, sure, that's fine. I

575
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:45.279
<v Speaker 2>just look, I know these other shows more so they

576
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.160
<v Speaker 2>wound up a little bit higher. Yeah, having seen it now,

577
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:50.240
<v Speaker 2>I think that's eleven or thirteen or whatever it is

578
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:50.759
<v Speaker 2>is too low.

579
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:53.279
<v Speaker 1>Right, Well, it's still pretty respectable, thoughts.

580
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:56.039
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, out of all the shows that had been

581
00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:00.519
<v Speaker 2>made from say, nineteen forty nine to twenty sixteen, that's good.

582
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:04.279
<v Speaker 2>But I think it's better, and certainly in terms of influence, yeah,

583
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:06.839
<v Speaker 2>it's one of like the three or four most influential

584
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:09.400
<v Speaker 2>things ever on TV. It's that it's I love Lucy

585
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:10.599
<v Speaker 2>and it's the Sopranos.

586
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Sure, sure, Okay. Now, I've asked this about of a

587
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:17.519
<v Speaker 1>lot of people on the show, and I would really

588
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:19.920
<v Speaker 1>love to get your take on it as a TV

589
00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:22.279
<v Speaker 1>critic who's been in the business for so long. But

590
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:29.359
<v Speaker 1>people have tried, depending on your opinion, maybe they've failed,

591
00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:32.319
<v Speaker 1>maybe they've succeeded, but people have tried to bring the

592
00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:36.160
<v Speaker 1>Twilight Zone back. Do you feel that we can bring

593
00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:39.319
<v Speaker 1>the twilight Zone back and have it be called twilight

594
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:44.279
<v Speaker 1>Zone and have it be successful and beloved, or do

595
00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:48.440
<v Speaker 1>you think it is Rod sailing back in the day

596
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:50.240
<v Speaker 1>and that is what the twilight Zone is.

597
00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:53.839
<v Speaker 2>It's really hard, and I think there's you know, I

598
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:57.160
<v Speaker 2>didn't watch a ton of the reboots for this just

599
00:29:57.200 --> 00:29:59.480
<v Speaker 2>because it was Rod didn't write them, so it was

600
00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:02.480
<v Speaker 2>ultimately beside the point. I talked to people who worked

601
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:05.000
<v Speaker 2>on all of them, and there's you know, there's some

602
00:30:05.079 --> 00:30:07.559
<v Speaker 2>episodes I watched their site in there there's some good stuff.

603
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:10.200
<v Speaker 2>I remember liking eighties Twilight Zone when I was younger.

604
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:13.759
<v Speaker 2>There's some good upn episodes. There's a few of the

605
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:17.200
<v Speaker 2>Jordan Peele version I think are good, but it's never

606
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:20.200
<v Speaker 2>quite twilight Zone. Like the best of the eighties episodes

607
00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:23.640
<v Speaker 2>could have been from all lots of different anthologies. They

608
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.680
<v Speaker 2>never necessarily felt like twilight Zone to me. Whenever any

609
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.720
<v Speaker 2>of them would remake an episode, it never worked I did.

610
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I liked the It's Still a Good Life

611
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:36.359
<v Speaker 2>sequel that the upn version did with an adult Bill movie.

612
00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:38.839
<v Speaker 2>It's just hard, and I think Bill said to me

613
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:42.839
<v Speaker 2>something like, I think that they should if they try again,

614
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:45.480
<v Speaker 2>it should be called Tales from the twilight Zone or

615
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:48.440
<v Speaker 2>some other like. It still incorporates the title, but it

616
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:50.839
<v Speaker 2>makes it clear that this is not the Serling thing.

617
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:55.920
<v Speaker 2>But it's hard. I mean, Rod was special. He had

618
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:58.519
<v Speaker 2>an insight into the human condition that he was then

619
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:02.039
<v Speaker 2>able to marry with all of the genre elements that

620
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:04.960
<v Speaker 2>very few writers have. You know, he would be the

621
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:07.039
<v Speaker 2>first to tell you other people are better sci fi

622
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:10.319
<v Speaker 2>writers than him, other people were better fantasy writers than him.

623
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:12.799
<v Speaker 2>But what he was able to do in taking like

624
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:18.960
<v Speaker 2>those tropes and infusing humanity and infusing emotion and infusing

625
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:23.039
<v Speaker 2>philosophy into that very few people have ever been able

626
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:24.960
<v Speaker 2>to do it, and certainly not as well as him.

627
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:28.279
<v Speaker 2>And if you don't have that I don't know. I mean,

628
00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:32.039
<v Speaker 2>I think Charlie Brooker has it right. The best twilight

629
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:35.039
<v Speaker 2>Zone reboot is Black Mirror, because one it's not called

630
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:39.119
<v Speaker 2>twilight Zone, and two it is doing what Twilight Zone

631
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:41.480
<v Speaker 2>did in the sense that it's about the problems we're

632
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:44.880
<v Speaker 2>dealing with now. And Charlie even said, like, if Rod

633
00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:47.000
<v Speaker 2>was alive today and he was making twilight Zone now,

634
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.079
<v Speaker 2>it would be about phones, and it would be about

635
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:51.799
<v Speaker 2>loss of privacy and AI and all the things. I mean,

636
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:54.000
<v Speaker 2>there's a couple of AI episodes on the original show

637
00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:56.680
<v Speaker 2>because Rod was way ahead of his time there. But

638
00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:59.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's sort of a lot of these other reboo,

639
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:02.759
<v Speaker 2>which do have their merits, are trying to sort of

640
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:04.799
<v Speaker 2>be this old thing and this new thing at once,

641
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:06.839
<v Speaker 2>and I don't think that quite works.

642
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:10.359
<v Speaker 1>So, Alan, when's the book out? Where can people pre

643
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:11.000
<v Speaker 1>order it?

644
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:14.319
<v Speaker 2>The book is out right. The book is coming out

645
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:18.240
<v Speaker 2>rather on October thirteenth in the States. It will be

646
00:32:18.279 --> 00:32:21.039
<v Speaker 2>out in many other countries around then. I can't necessarily

647
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:24.000
<v Speaker 2>speak to exactly when you can pre order it now.

648
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:27.359
<v Speaker 2>There are links if you follow me anywhere on social media,

649
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:29.680
<v Speaker 2>If you go to Alan Sepinwall dot com, if you

650
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:33.279
<v Speaker 2>go to what's Alan watching dot com, it's easy to find.

651
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:36.079
<v Speaker 2>The full title is Serling a Journey into the Twilight

652
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.680
<v Speaker 2>Zone with TV's first Visionary. But I have a very

653
00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:41.640
<v Speaker 2>unique name, so if you literally google Serling and Sepenwall,

654
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:42.680
<v Speaker 2>you're gonna find it.

655
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:45.039
<v Speaker 1>Alan. I mean, it goes without saying I wish you

656
00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:47.799
<v Speaker 1>all the best with the book, but I really want

657
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:51.359
<v Speaker 1>to thank you for, I guess engaging with me in

658
00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:54.640
<v Speaker 1>the process. I really appreciated that. I thought that was wonderful,

659
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:58.839
<v Speaker 1>and I think what really stands out is, you know,

660
00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:02.240
<v Speaker 1>not just the care you've taken to tell road Sealing

661
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:06.680
<v Speaker 1>story properly, but the way you've engaged so generously with

662
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:10.039
<v Speaker 1>the fine community when you've been on that journey. I

663
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:12.000
<v Speaker 1>think it means a great deal to all of us,

664
00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:14.720
<v Speaker 1>and we thank you so thank you so much. Challenge,

665
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:15.319
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I.

666
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:18.200
<v Speaker 2>Got to thank you. Tom, Like the quotes of yours

667
00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:20.920
<v Speaker 2>that are in the book are really insightful, and often,

668
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:24.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, sometimes in the book, I'm like choosing between

669
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:27.799
<v Speaker 2>five different people who said the same thing. Everything you

670
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:30.559
<v Speaker 2>said nobody else said, so it was like, Okay, if

671
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:32.079
<v Speaker 2>I want to make this point in the book, Tom

672
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:33.720
<v Speaker 2>is going to make it because he's the only one

673
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.640
<v Speaker 2>who thought of this. Like, your insight into his work,

674
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:40.319
<v Speaker 2>which should be great given the amount of time you've

675
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:45.119
<v Speaker 2>spent studying it all these years, is astounding. And I

676
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:47.400
<v Speaker 2>thank you. You were one of the people I met

677
00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:49.720
<v Speaker 2>that first time, Like I thank you for not looking

678
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.839
<v Speaker 2>at me like something that had scraped against the bottom

679
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:56.079
<v Speaker 2>of your shoe and saying, hey, you know, welcome, let's

680
00:33:56.119 --> 00:33:58.920
<v Speaker 2>talk and it's wonderful.

681
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.799
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Tom Well, thank you so much for joining me. Alan.

682
00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:04.039
<v Speaker 1>I can't wait for part two of this conversation.

683
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<v Speaker 2>I will be here whenever you ask