WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.960 --> 00:00:06.480 It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS. Constance me Vidio. 2 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:09.480 Sorry, welcome back everyone, as we move into our ten 3 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:13.960 o'clock hour, I'm delighted to be joined by attorney Jeff Convicts. 4 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:18.440 Jeff practices law in the great state of California. He's 5 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:22.480 an active practicing attorney who is in and out of 6 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.399 federal court, in and out of the State Supreme Court 7 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:29.440 in California. But he's also an author, and he has 8 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:34.240 written a new book which is a historical novel. So, 9 00:00:35.159 --> 00:00:38.320 without any further Ado, Jeff, welcome to Nightside. How are you, sir? 10 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:40.280 Thank you for having me. 11 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:44.359 Dan, Well delighted to have you. And you had a 12 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:52.079 very successful book which was called The Sentinel that sold. 13 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:55.759 I think it's about six million copies. Was that your 14 00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:57.679 first effort at writing a book? 15 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:03.799 It was my first effort at writing a book. It 16 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:07.959 had Actually it was in the mid seventies after I 17 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:12.640 got met a law school at Columbia and I just 18 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:14.840 a friend of mine said why don't you write a book? 19 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:18.879 And I did. It was interesting because the first creative 20 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:20.959 writing paper I had at Cornell, I got a d 21 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:25.079 on and the professor said, you're illiterate. I guess I 22 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:27.760 turned along the way. 23 00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:28.560 It's true. 24 00:01:29.719 --> 00:01:32.959 It's true. And the interesting about thing about the book, 25 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:35.959 even though it was turned down by thirty companies in 26 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:40.400 a Rose, Simon and Schuster took it, and then Random 27 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:44.200 House took it. And in those days, math market paperback 28 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:49.000 was the business. Hardcover hardly existed. And they did a 29 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:52.599 television ad and the next day the book blew through 30 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:56.760 the roof everybody wherever I went in La New York, 31 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:00.760 wherever on airplanes, everyone was reading it and they would 32 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:04.400 get to a little after page one hundred when virtually 33 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:09.400 everyone would say what because I tricked everybody and that 34 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:11.840 got them locked in. So it was a huge hit. 35 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:14.680 And then I did a sequel called The Guardian, which 36 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:16.560 was a hit too, But now no one there is 37 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:17.000 a big. 38 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:20.639 So so you're a young lawyer at that point who 39 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:26.280 you have started to practice law. But but better than that, 40 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:33.479 you now become a highly successful author. I assumed The 41 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:37.240 Sentinel turned into a movie, and there there were there 42 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:42.120 were all sorts of a film adaptation, et cetera, and 43 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:45.639 it was a It was a smashing success. Did you 44 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:47.599 ever think at that point, well, gee, I've found my 45 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:51.360 real life, my real role in life. Here they if 46 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:52.280 I get to that point. 47 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:56.919 Well, it did become a movie at Universal. I wasn't 48 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:00.240 one hundred percent happy with it because the direct there 49 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:04.479 took shortcuts. But such a long story. The truth is, 50 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:06.199 when I got out of law school, I went right 51 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.919 into the entertainment business. I went to one of the 52 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:12.080 biggest talent agencies as a lawyer agent, and then I 53 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:15.479 went to MGM as a production executive, and I was 54 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.120 writing the book at night. And then when the book 55 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:21.280 came out and was a hit, Universal bought the movie 56 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:24.080 rights in a big bidding war. I made a lot 57 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:28.039 of money in nineteen seventy four, was shocking, and I 58 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:29.879 had no money in the bank, and suddenly I had 59 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:34.759 a million and a half dollars. So I wrote two 60 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:38.680 more books, The Centinel, The Guardian, and A Monster A 61 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:42.159 Tale of Lockness, which was more about politics and more 62 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:45.360 of a thriller about oil drilling. And then I said, 63 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:48.000 you know, I'm staying in the movie business. The book 64 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:53.240 business is very difficult. And I spent the next I 65 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:58.719 still am in the movie business, running running public public 66 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:03.159 distribution and production companies. We made a lot of movies. 67 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:08.680 I produced some movies, but kind of In nineteen ninety six, 68 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:13.240 I went back to my law practice full time. But 69 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:16.319 the seeds of this book, the new book, The Circus 70 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:18.279 of Satan, had already been planted. 71 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.120 Where where did those seeds spring from? 72 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:26.920 It started in the late seventies with a book called 73 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:32.839 Against the Evidence, about a murder trial that took place 74 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:40.319 in New York. Basically, four Jewish gamblers hired three Jewish 75 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:43.560 killers and one Italian killer to kill a Jewish gambler 76 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:46.399 who was breaking the rules and had gone to the press. 77 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.439 And the reason it was so notorious is from nineteen 78 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:56.040 hundred to nineteen thirteen, politics in virtually every American city 79 00:04:56.279 --> 00:04:59.759 with some little adjustments, were controlled by what I call 80 00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:03.160 the Irish mobs. The Irish had come over the Seventh 81 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:07.120 in the sixth in the eighteen forties eighteen fifties from 82 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:11.079 the Potato famine, and a lot of them moved into 83 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:15.639 gangs in these major cities. They were like the bootle 84 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:18.519 Boys and the Roach Guards, and the Death House Gang 85 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:24.279 and the Tunnel Gang. And eventually they coalesced into one 86 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:27.360 big gang called the Wio Gang, which I begin my 87 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:31.000 book with in a bar fight. And then by nineteen 88 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:35.600 hundred they had basically moved out of gangdom and become 89 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:40.680 political powers. Like in New York, the Irish completely controlled 90 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:45.240 Tammany Hall, and through Tammany Hall they controlled the police department, 91 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:49.480 who were all grafters, and the police department would scour 92 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:54.480 the city grafting and grafting the opium dens and the 93 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:58.720 houses of prostitution and the gambling casinos, and the money 94 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.480 would be remitted to the eye Irish overlords at Tammany 95 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:06.560 Hall and then the student The overlords at Tammany Hall 96 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:10.240 would get people elected to major positions in the city 97 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.279 who had then kicked back money to Tammany Hall. In fact, 98 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:18.000 in nineteen ten, when Mayor Gamer was elected, he canceled 99 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:22.240 money going to Tammany Hall for a thousand Tammany executives, 100 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:25.879 all of whom were dead. So the money was just 101 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:30.480 pouring in. And this happened in almost every major city, 102 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:35.000 not so much in Boston because the Brahmins were there, 103 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:38.600 as you know you're from Boston. But in my book, 104 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:42.879 I do have Honey Fits and Patrick Kennedy and Kennedy's 105 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:47.079 son and Rose Fitzgerald there in there. There was a 106 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:51.319 heavy Irish presence in Chicago through Bath House, John Coglin 107 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:56.519 and Hinky Mike Kenna. Saint Louis was completely controlled by 108 00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:59.040 Eddie the Rat Egan and his gang. 109 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.399 But when you talk about when you talk about Chicago, 110 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:06.199 obviously you get to the Daily family of you know, 111 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:09.439 in the fifties, and they sort of handed it off 112 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:13.040 to Jane Byrne and then that was kind of the 113 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:17.680 end of the Irish control in Chicago. But there were 114 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:21.839 a lot of stories about what mayor Daily, you know, 115 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:26.040 the Richard Daily, the father, might have done to help 116 00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:30.480 find a few extra votes in Chicago to swing Illinois 117 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:34.439 in the nineteen sixty presidential election. So those of us 118 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:40.000 in Boston are very familiar with the interplay between political 119 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:43.879 figures and gangs. So this is a book that I'm 120 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:45.319 sure a lot of my listeners are going to read, 121 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:47.920 and I want to, I want to expand our conversation 122 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:50.199 on it, but I got to take a quick commercial break. 123 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:54.399 My guest is attorney Jeff Convicts. John Jeff has had 124 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:59.279 tremendous success as an author, and despite all of that, 125 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:05.519 he remained a practicing, highly successful lawyer in California, And 126 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.439 he now has a new book that comes out actually 127 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:12.199 later this month called Circus of Satan. 128 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:13.800 It is a historical novel. 129 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:20.120 There's and we we will occasionally occasionally have authors of 130 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:22.800 historical novels that I think would be of interest to 131 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:29.920 my audience. We know a lot of the successions here 132 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:34.960 in Massachusetts. Matter of fact, more recently we had the 133 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:40.159 Senate President in Massachusetts, a Democrat by the name of 134 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:44.159 Bill Bulger, and his brother, the notorious Whitey Bulger, who 135 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:48.399 had been at one point a resident of Alcatraz. They 136 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.240 had a real rule of terror here in Boston from 137 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:54.960 the late sixties through the seventies and eighties and into 138 00:08:55.000 --> 00:09:01.759 the nineties. And actually Bulger was the former cent of President, 139 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:04.840 was the president of the University of Massachusetts until then 140 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:09.039 Governor Mitt Romney convinced him to resign that post. So 141 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.679 even it comes up to the twentieth the twenty first century, 142 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:15.960 and we're going to talk with Jeff Convince. If you 143 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.200 have a question, you were more than welcome to join 144 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:22.600 the conversation if you're interested in the interrelationship between politicians 145 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:28.440 and gang activity, which dates from the earliest years of 146 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:31.799 the nineteen hundreds, actually a little bit into the eighteen eighties, 147 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:35.480 eighteen seventy eight onto eighteen eighties and nineties. That's the 148 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:38.679 era we're talking about. If you'd like to join the conversation, 149 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:41.559 feel free six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty 150 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:44.159 six one, seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty. If you're 151 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:47.320 familiar with any of Jeff's prior books, including The Sentinel, 152 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:50.080 I think he would admit is his best known book, 153 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:52.279 you can you can talk to him as well. We'll 154 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:54.399 be back on Night's Side right after a couple of 155 00:09:54.480 --> 00:10:00.360 brief messages with my guest, California attorney, author successful in 156 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:07.080 two very interesting and arguably related realms, writing and the law. 157 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:08.399 Back on Nightside after this. 158 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:14.000 You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w BEAZ, 159 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:15.639 Boston's news radio. 160 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:23.440 My guest is a writer and a lawyer and accomplished 161 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:28.519 in both of those fields. Jeff convicts. Jeff, let's talk 162 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:32.240 about the book that is about to come out again, 163 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:34.879 A book that you've worked on for some time. How 164 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:37.120 long would you say you've worked on this book? I 165 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:39.320 suspect it's been in the making for a long time. 166 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:44.799 Well, I did after reading this against the evidence. And 167 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:48.080 actually there are more books about the Becca Rosenthal murders. 168 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:50.840 In fact, a book called Satan Circus which is nonfiction, 169 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:53.600 and the whole book is about the murders. My book 170 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:57.799 just uses the Becha Rosenthal case in about twenty pages, 171 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.200 which triggers a whole bunch of plot issues that are 172 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:05.399 fictional but lead to the same place. So I started 173 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:08.879 writing it in the late seventies. Was I tried to 174 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:11.159 fictionalize it. It didn't work. I put it away. It 175 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:15.440 was sat in a closet for sixteen years. I got 176 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:18.480 married again and my wife, my new wife, found it Joe, 177 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:20.600 and she said, it's a great story. So I read 178 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:24.200 it again. It didn't work, and then I realized why 179 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:28.399 I was trying to fictionalize real events. So I turned 180 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:33.320 my attention to writing a fictional story. But virtually everything 181 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:38.399 in the book actually happened, from the Triangle shirtwaist fire 182 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:41.200 to the Beck and Rosemen bal murders, the sinking of 183 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:45.000 the Titanic, the murder of Stamford White, the nineteen oh 184 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:50.200 three World's Fair, the Great Dance Fight in Chicago, the 185 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:54.399 greatest dive in the history of boxing. All this stuff 186 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:57.360 was real, so I had a feather my real characters 187 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:00.399 through it. It took me twenty five years, fought and 188 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:02.360 on because I had a law practice, and I was 189 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:05.840 also producing movies. But it took twenty five years. And 190 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:08.759 what I realized at the end, which was which shocked me, 191 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:12.519 is about ten years after I started the book, there 192 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:15.039 was a movie called Gangs in New York with Leonardo 193 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:19.399 DiCaprio about the basically about the Irish and the Irish gangs. 194 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:22.559 And then there was a giant mini series hit called 195 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:26.960 Boardwalk Empire that started in nineteen twenty. My book basically 196 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.360 ends in nineteen twenty. It's the middle period. It connects 197 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:34.600 Gangs in New York the Boardwalk Empire and then explains 198 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:39.159 a period and events that almost nobody knows about. It's 199 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.000 a dead era when the Irish controlled everything, and then 200 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.919 in nineteen thirteen the Irish mob was destroyed. 201 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:49.399 Let me ask you a couple of questions here. I'm 202 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:52.480 more familiar with what has gone on in Boston, and 203 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:56.360 I suspect that's fairly a representative of some of the 204 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:58.440 other cities that you have in this book. 205 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:03.080 But in Boston, for a long long time, as we. 206 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.720 Call them, the Brahmins of the Yankees, those who could 207 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:09.399 trace their roots to the Mayflower, ruled everything here. They 208 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:15.480 they were the bankers, Uh, the educators, they the the investors. 209 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:19.919 It was it was all uh, one class. And then 210 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:23.600 obviously you had, as you mentioned here, the UH the 211 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:27.000 the Irish landed and UH and things changed and the 212 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:31.000 Irish the way in was uh political. But at the 213 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:35.600 same time there was a lot of gang activity here. 214 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.360 There were other gangs that that came along. But the 215 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:44.080 Irish in Boston, UH, they didn't want their their children, 216 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:46.960 their kids to be involved in that sort of stuff. So, 217 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:50.360 for example, you'd have Joe Kennedy. Uh, the patriarch of 218 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:56.120 the Kennedy family was involved in bootlegging. Reportedly, I I 219 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:58.960 can never tell you that I bought bootleg whiskey from 220 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:02.279 Joe Kennedy, but I've seen enough to realize that's true. 221 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:04.840 He himself was involved, as you know, in the movie industry, 222 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:09.159 but his son went on to become the President of 223 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.879 the United States. As you know, your dad was active 224 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:17.799 in democratic politics. He had another son who ran for president. Both, 225 00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:23.080 of course, sadly and tragically were assassinated. But the patriarch 226 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:26.440 wanted their children to be in what arguably was a 227 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:30.039 cleaner business. But I'm not sure that the politics was 228 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:34.360 any cleaner than the gang activity. If you get my drift. 229 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:39.559 Well, as a current example, there were museums all over 230 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:46.200 the country, and charitable institutions and a great creative art 231 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:51.080 centers around the nation named after the Annenbergs, well most 232 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:57.720 of them Max Adamberg with gangsters. In fact, they led 233 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.840 the newspaper hit squads and Chicago that would beat up 234 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:06.519 newspaper stand proprietors who had the wrong newspaper up front 235 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:09.120 and their stands, and then the other papers would send 236 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:12.480 gangs and beat them up. And then eventually at the 237 00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.440 end of his life Moses Annenberger tried to get away 238 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:18.480 from it. Became the bigger criminal because he controlled the 239 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:22.000 betting wire and he had a NonStop war with Capone 240 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.440 and the Chicago organization and the Purple Gang. I mean, 241 00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:29.080 he was deeply embedded and then went to jail. And 242 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:31.399 when he got out of jail, on his death bet 243 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:35.720 he said to his son Walter, I made millions. I'm 244 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:37.799 the richest man in the country. I was the most 245 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:40.679 powerful man in the country. It was all for nothing. 246 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:44.360 A lot of regret. There a lot of regret, And 247 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:47.440 of course anybody who knows journalism knows that there are 248 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:52.759 journalism schools Aninburg schools and awards and all that. So 249 00:15:53.320 --> 00:15:55.799 I assume that the pattern that we see here in 250 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:59.559 Boston followed on in Chicago. And I don't know that 251 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:01.000 I'd want to be in the gang that was up 252 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.679 against al capoone. So there you had, I guess a 253 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:07.399 Jewish gang was in competition with an Italian gang. 254 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:08.639 No. 255 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:14.240 The interesting thing is the Irish had in in Chicago. 256 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:17.080 There were there was segregated vice district. The most famous 257 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:19.919 was the Levee and that was run by a man 258 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:22.879 by Big Jim Colosimo, who was assassinated in the first 259 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:27.840 episode of Boardwalk Empire. So that the Irish powers, the 260 00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:32.840 Aldermans controlled the Levees and the other crime areas through 261 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:36.600 through Big Jim Colosmo and Johnny Torrio who he brought 262 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:39.879 in for New York, and then Johnny Toreo brought in Capone. 263 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:42.159 But there was there was a heavy Irish presence in 264 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:46.440 the gangs, the Obanion Bannons. You know that big Valentine's 265 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.919 Day massacre. Uh So it was a mixed bag. In 266 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:52.639 Saint Louis, it was all Irish, all Irish, okay. 267 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.799 And when you use the term levees in terms of Chicago, 268 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:58.200 we would be referring to it as the docks. 269 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:03.200 It's the waterfront, well, it's called the Levy and it 270 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:06.440 was about as depraved as you can imagine. The people 271 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:10.559 in the people in Chicago loved the praved areas, but 272 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:13.880 they wanted to separate them away so that their conscience 273 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:18.559 could blossom as men of essex and morality that had none. 274 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:23.119 So it was a little different in every city. But 275 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:28.200 what happened was in the Becker Rosenthal murders, the connection 276 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:32.319 between the politicians at Tammany Hall and the police department, 277 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:36.559 which was totally corrupt, was broken, and once that was broken, 278 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:41.359 the control over the vote died. Socialists came in with 279 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.279 the Jews. The merchant bankers came in to rescue the 280 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:49.960 Jews from poverty. The Protestant churches went to war with 281 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:53.839 the Catholic Church, and before you know it, the Irish 282 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:57.119 mob had collapsed, and out of that rose the Jewish 283 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:02.039 organized crime families into labor rackets to hearing, followed by 284 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:06.400 Jewish crime families and Italian crime families into bootlegging and 285 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:09.519 then organized crime as we know today. But it wouldn't 286 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:14.119 have happened without the Becca Rosenthal murders. That did it. 287 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:18.279 It broke the chain that Herbert bays Swope, the great reporter, 288 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.319 who was at the Pulett, who was at Pulitt's World, 289 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:24.920 was trying to break. And this was the event that did. 290 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:29.200 It's not central to my book, but it's at the end, 291 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.920 and it allows part portions of the plot to unravel 292 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.680 with all the surprise endings. So I use it. But 293 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:38.799 there are whole books on that. There's a book, as 294 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:41.519 I said, called Satan's Circus is one against the evidence. 295 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:43.480 It's a very famous case. 296 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:51.559 And so you take the title Satan's Circus and you 297 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.039 flip it around here. Circus of Satan. Is that the 298 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:56.440 genesis of your title? 299 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:00.960 Two reasons. Number one, The ten Underloin district on the 300 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.599 West Side was the upper level of crime and corruption. 301 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:05.839 Uh. 302 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:09.079 It was called the Tenderloin by a cop who said, 303 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:11.359 I've been on the East Side getting chuck steak. Now 304 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.559 I'm going to cross town to get some tenderloin. And 305 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.160 San Francisco picked up the name. 306 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:19.599 Yes, right, The tenderloin district in San Francisco was not 307 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:21.279 a place you want to spend a lot of time. 308 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:21.920 It's a. 309 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:28.519 But the The Protestant clergy referred to the Tenderloin as 310 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:33.599 Satan's Circus because it was so different, and I took 311 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:36.880 the title for two reasons. Number one, there's a nonfiction 312 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.160 book called Satan's Circus about the Becca Rosenthal murders. I 313 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:44.880 didn't want to clash for that. But my hero, my 314 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:49.599 my anti hero, is not exactly an altar boy. When 315 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:52.319 he looks back on his life. Some of the things 316 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:56.119 he did, he regrets it led to awful things. Even 317 00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.039 though the resolution might have worked out. He left the 318 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:04.400 trail of bodies, pain and tears behind. And until the 319 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:06.839 end of the book he admits, from the time he 320 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:10.079 was a child until the end, he could never cry 321 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.720 because so many bad things that happened. So he compares 322 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:17.079 his life to a circus of Satan, and he has 323 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:24.799 this metaphorical presence of Satanic clowns juggling and Satanic lion 324 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:28.160 Tamer's taming at the end of each chapter, so it 325 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:31.279 has a double meaning. It's his life and it's the place. 326 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:33.640 Gotcha all right? We got to take a break. News 327 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:36.240 at the bottom of the hour. My guest is attorney 328 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:42.559 and author Jeff Convicts. If you you would have known 329 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.680 him from the book The Sentinel and other books along 330 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.480 the way. The new book, which is coming out on 331 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:54.000 June seventeenth, the publication date. Who's the circus of Satan 332 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.440 being published by you? Back with Simon and Schuster are 333 00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:58.759 a different publisher No, My. 334 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:01.559 First three books were published by Simon and Schuster Random 335 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:05.119 House in Bantam. This one, I decided it's going to 336 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:08.279 be my own publishing company. I want complete control. I 337 00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:11.160 designed the cover, I had designed the inside, I designed 338 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:14.160 all the marketing campaigns. My partner and I put up 339 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:18.160 all the money. We hired the pr people, the marketing people, 340 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:21.359 we have ads and publishers weekly in variety. We're going 341 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:25.880 all out. It's very difficult because the major publishers have powers. 342 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:28.680 In fact, it's almost impossible to get an indie book 343 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:31.920 into a bookstore because of the discount rate for hardcovers. 344 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:33.920 So the way you buy this book is you go 345 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:37.400 on Amazon and it's actually in pre order. Now you 346 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:42.599 go on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or other online booksellers, 347 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:46.279 just press order, give your address, won't pay for it, 348 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:49.240 and it comes the next day, two days later. So 349 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:50.960 it's a different thing. I had to learn how to 350 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:51.599 do this. 351 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:56.920 Okay, that's the lawyer, and you're figure it out then, Jeff, 352 00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:58.680 we'll be back in a couple of a couple of 353 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:01.400 minutes after the newscast. Folks, if you want to jump 354 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:06.519 on board, you have a knowledge of these these these 355 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:10.920 sordid histories in most major American cities throughout most of 356 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:13.240 the twentieth century, and you want to either add to 357 00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:15.920 the conversation or ask a question, You're more than welcome 358 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.559 six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty or six 359 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.400 one seven, nine three, one ten thirty back with attorney 360 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:24.599 and author Jeff Convicts right after the news break at 361 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:25.440 the bottom of the hour. 362 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.920 You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z, 363 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:31.559 Boston's news radio. 364 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:37.200 We're talking with a gentleman who has combined two areas 365 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:42.640 of expertise literature writing and also the law. Jeff Convicts 366 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:47.799 is a very successful California lawyer who hit it big 367 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:50.720 with a book called The Sentinel in the nineteen sixties. 368 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:57.279 That nineteen seventies. Excuse me, I'm sorry, I'm not that I. 369 00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:58.519 Was looking you know what I was doing, Jeff. 370 00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:01.160 I was looking at the number of sold six million, 371 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:05.759 and I defaulted to the sixties, the seventies. You and 372 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:07.640 I graduated from law school the same year. If you 373 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:08.799 get out in seventy four. 374 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.640 By the way, just now, I got out in seventies, So. 375 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:14.759 Okay, fair enough. Well you don't sound it, that's that 376 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:19.640 is for sure. And the book that he's written now 377 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:24.960 is is available for pre order Circus of Satan, highly 378 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:29.119 recommended to me by someone, which is why I have 379 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:33.720 Jeff on tonight. I want to follow up because I'm 380 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:38.039 not sure that you responded as fully as I think 381 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:43.079 you could to the to the whole question of out 382 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:46.160 of at least in Boston, and maybe Boston is the 383 00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:51.960 exception of the rule out of the the the Irish gangs. 384 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:55.839 And and not that Joe Kennedy led a street gang, 385 00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:59.279 because that wasn't what he did, but he wanted to 386 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:03.880 make sure that his sons were we're in a more 387 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:11.559 legitimate field politics. And and ultimately, Bobby Kennedy went after 388 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:14.680 organized crime. And as a matter of fact, some people 389 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:19.039 believe that his pursuit of organized crime, UH and his 390 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.880 tenacious pursuit of organized crime may have laid laid the 391 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:29.640 foundation for both his and his brother's assassination. Do you 392 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:33.200 have a thought on that theory, you know, because nobody 393 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:37.319 knows the real story as far as I'm concerned, behind 394 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:40.799 the Kennedy assassination. But I see the hands of organized 395 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:44.720 crime much more clearly than I do of Fidel Castro, 396 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:49.119 or the Soviet Union, or or or any sort of 397 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:54.440 you know, crazy right wing plot does. Does your experience 398 00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:58.000 and your knowledge in this area, has that helped? Have 399 00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:03.680 you thought about that the implications of both of those assassinations. 400 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:08.279 The easiest answer is I'm a political animal. I know 401 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:13.799