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True Murder with 31 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:43.079 your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 32 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:48.159 Convicting a Murderer unveils the shocking truth behind one of 33 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:53.079 the most controversial criminal cases in history. In Netflix's Making 34 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:56.760 a Murderer, which had one hundred million viewers, Stephen Avery 35 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.319 was portrayed as an innocent victim of corrupt law enforce Smith. 36 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:02.920 But there's more to the story than what we were shown. 37 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:07.680 Convicting a Murderer is narrated by Candice Owens, who sets 38 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:11.159 the record straight by exposing the hidden evidence in the 39 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:15.120 murder of Teresa Halbach. Convicting a Murderer is a ten 40 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:19.800 part documentary series available on Daily Wire Plus. Joining Me 41 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:24.400 Now is Convicting a Murderer. Producer Brenda Schuler and director 42 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:27.120 Sean reck Welcome to the program. 43 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:29.680 Thank you for having us, Thank you, thank. 44 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:33.719 You very much. First off, for people, what is the 45 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:38.560 focus of this ten part documentary series Convicting a Murderer? 46 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:39.280 What's it all about. 47 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:43.439 Well, back in twenty fifteen, Netflix is Making a Murderer 48 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:47.759 was the biggest crime docuseries of all time. We believe 49 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.199 over one hundred million people watched it worldwide. Yes, we 50 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:55.439 watched it and both became obsessed with it. I largely 51 00:02:55.599 --> 00:03:00.680 believed it and found out pretty quickly through print media 52 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:04.159 that I was duped that a lot of information was 53 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:08.919 left out, a lot of information was edited, like unethically edited. 54 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:13.360 We allege and you know, we came to a conclusion 55 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:18.439 based on bad info. So, as a documentary filmmaker who 56 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:21.479 benefited from it because I had another series out that 57 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.560 became more popular because it was similar to Making a Murderer. 58 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:27.520 So I benefited from Making a Murderer. I thought, well, 59 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:29.919 somebody's going to come correct the record at some point 60 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:33.240 and I can't wait to watch it. That never happened, 61 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:36.639 and a couple of years later, some of the people 62 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:40.759 involved in law enforcement who were considered themselves victimized by 63 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:43.400 Making a Murderer approached us and said, we trust you 64 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:47.360 to tell this story because of your first film, which, 65 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:51.199 in their words, exposed what they call the innocence industry. 66 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:55.960 So we set out to make an answer or retort 67 00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:59.479 to Making a Murderer that included all the information and 68 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:02.919 showed law enforcement point of view. And it took six 69 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:05.560 and a half years. But that's what Convicting Your Murderer is. 70 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:08.560 It's a ten part, ten hour docuseries that you can 71 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:11.479 see on the Daily Wire Plus and it's out now. 72 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.680 Brenda, as producer of Convicting a Murderer, tell us how 73 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:17.480 you became involved and why. 74 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:21.240 Yeah, Ashley, I watched Making a Murder, just like everyone 75 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:24.399 else brings it over the holidays. I live about an 76 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:27.279 hour from match Walk, so I was a little more 77 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.439 local and I knew about the case beforehand, but had 78 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:34.040 never really involved myself to any degree up until Making 79 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:38.040 a Murder. After watching Making a Murder, I became obsessed. 80 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:39.920 It's the best way I can describe it. Kind of 81 00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:43.079 went on a journey to figure out the truth. Prior 82 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:45.879 to Making a Murder, I believe Stephen was guilty. Watching 83 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:49.160 Making a Murder made me have some doubts and within 84 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:51.720 probably a couple of days, I was back to he's 85 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:54.800 guilty in a nutshell, so but I still wanted to know. 86 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:57.680 I wanted all my questions answered that arose from making 87 00:04:57.759 --> 00:04:59.399 a murderer. So I kind of went on a mission. 88 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:02.759 I reached out to the assistant district attorney from management, 89 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:05.680 Michael greasback ended up kind of doing some fact checking 90 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:10.480 for him on his book that connected me with Andrew Colburn, 91 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:14.600 the officer from making a murder, that controversial officer from 92 00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:18.199 making murder. And at that point, then Michael's book was 93 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:22.920 released and I met up with Tom Fosspender, the lead detective, 94 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:27.439 who talked to me just about helping the prosecutor of 95 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:31.439 the Avian Dacy trials if ken krat if I would 96 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:32.920 help him fact. 97 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:33.519 Check his book. 98 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:36.920 So that's kind of how I became involved. Early on, 99 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:39.519 just kind of inserted myself to be honest because I 100 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.720 wanted the truth, and reached out to people. And then ultimately, 101 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.839 as Sean said, law enforcement went to Sean and his 102 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:50.560 partner and touch base with them on maybe a possibility 103 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:53.319 of something happening or doing some type of series or film, 104 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:55.519 And that's kind of how I became involved. I just 105 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:58.759 worked with Sean and his team and got something together 106 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:01.319 and it just took a lot then I expect to. 107 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:04.040 But that's really my story in a nutshell. 108 00:06:04.199 --> 00:06:08.839 I was really an early retired woman from Wisconsin, working 109 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:12.279 previously in an insurance industry for twenty some years, never 110 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.240 watched True Prime or anything, and something about this chase 111 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.000 just drew me in And apparently I'm still drown in. 112 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:20.160 So here we are. But that's my story. 113 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:23.839 Let's talk about the major issues that are examined in 114 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:27.720 this documentary series. In the trailer, it is mentioned just 115 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:29.959 some of the things that are going to be revealed 116 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:34.519 in the documentary series unedited phone call, shocking unedited phone calls. 117 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:38.279 But other than that, what are the major issues examined 118 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:39.480 in this documentary series. 119 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:41.800 I think that the biggest problem I have with the 120 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:44.920 series is the fact that they edited courtroom testimony and 121 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:49.360 they edited depositions. They changed the meaning of what people said, 122 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:54.920 They changed people's reactions to questions to make the audience 123 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:58.480 more skeptical, and questioned body language and things like that 124 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:01.240 wasn't even their body language at the time that they 125 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:03.920 were answering the question. And to me, as a filmmaker, 126 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:05.920 if somebody takes the time to do that, they've got 127 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:09.360 a dog in this race, and it's an advocacy piece. 128 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:13.879 At least it's propaganda. And it was portrayed as just 129 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:17.279 a fly on the wall watching What's Happening documentary and 130 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:20.639 it wasn't. So a lot of the issues are They 131 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:22.639 left a lot of things out. They said it was 132 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:25.399 for brevity, and it's true, you can't include everything in 133 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:27.879 the documentary, but when everything that ends up on the 134 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.759 cutting room floor would have made Stephen Avery look worse, 135 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:34.360 you have to question their motives. And that's really doing 136 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:37.600 is questioning the filmmaker's motives and Netflix motives. 137 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:39.399 I was just going to say, I want to kind 138 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:41.360 of say what Sean's saying exactly too. I think the 139 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:44.959 thing that alarmed me not being in the industry was 140 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:49.360 that documentaries I always believed were truly like sixty minutes, 141 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:50.879 you know, they were documents of truth. 142 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:51.480 There were news. 143 00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:54.480 So when I first started looking into this and looking 144 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:57.759 at these tiny little edits that I couldn't really understand 145 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:01.160 why they didn't seem to be for brevity, and in 146 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:04.160 the long run ended up learning that it was like 147 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:07.480 Death by a thousand edits, as Candace says in the film, 148 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:11.639 all of these little tiny edits that were done to 149 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:16.480 me to form a narrative that was false, and quite frankly, 150 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:19.519 I'm so glad that Sean did this film because it 151 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:22.199 really needed to come forward about how people can be 152 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:25.279 fooled and take a gregious. 153 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:26.600 Action as a result of that. 154 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:28.680 I mean, there were a lot of lives affected by this, 155 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.560 a lot of lives, and I think that's where my 156 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:34.320 passion comes from, is just really setting the record straight. 157 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:36.120 So I just wanted to add that on top of 158 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:37.960 Seawan's answer, Let's. 159 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:42.240 Talk about Candace Owen's participation and why she's involved and 160 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:44.279 why it's important she's involved. 161 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:47.679 We were very very much blackballed in Hollywood when we 162 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:50.440 thought we had to finished product. A lot of buyers 163 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:52.960 they don't know where they're going to want to work 164 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:54.639 in two or three years, and they don't want to 165 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:56.799 be the ones to new co Netflix when they may 166 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.919 want to work there someday. So when we originally spoke 167 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:02.679 with the Daily Wire, we thought we were speaking with 168 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.799 Fox Nation because of the because of who the buyer was, 169 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:07.960 we didn't realize he was working with a Daily Wire. 170 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:10.480 It ended up being quite a blessing that they were 171 00:09:10.519 --> 00:09:12.639 the ones who took this film and that Candice is 172 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:14.200 the one who fronted it, because you have to have 173 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:16.240 very thick skin, and you have to you have to 174 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:20.360 be fearless to take on this. This group of they 175 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:23.360 call themselves truthers, people who think Stephen are is innocent. 176 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:26.440 They're a vicious bunch. This is very personal to them. 177 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:29.360 I liken it to a religion, and I think they're 178 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:31.519 the perfect partners to have. But the fact is we 179 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:34.440 only had one other offer from a women's crime network 180 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:37.159 that I did not want it on. So the Daily 181 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:40.759 Wire was was really a perfect partnership it and it's 182 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:43.519 not this is this series isn't limited to the Daily Wire, 183 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:45.240 but it is. You know, if you want to watch 184 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:48.440 it this year, that's where you watch it. And at 185 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:50.840 this point you can you can just pay for one 186 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:52.879 month and binge all ten episodes. 187 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.679 At this point, let's get to what Daily Wire provides 188 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.399 in terms of the freedom to make the kind of 189 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:02.080 doc documentary that you want, or you've already made a 190 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:04.559 documentary that you wanted, but these are the people that 191 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:08.279 will distribute it and as you say, go up against 192 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:12.080 this behemoth of truthers. But also is there not some 193 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:15.799 blowback or resistance from Netflix itself. 194 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:19.960 No, nothing from Netflix. They've I think they've benefited. I 195 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:23.240 know that Making a Murderer went back on their top ten, 196 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:26.159 so people are going back and rewatching it. So I 197 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.600 guess it helped them. They're a company that in the 198 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.360 past they when they've made mistakes, or even when they 199 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:33.039 didn't make mistakes, but they were in the middle of 200 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:36.919 a controversy like the Chappelle controversy, which was really between 201 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:39.919 Dave Chappelle and Comedy Central. They've taken steps to do 202 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:43.399 the right thing. I don't think that. I don't think 203 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:46.720 Netflix is a very clinical company. They're analysts more than 204 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:50.399 their artists, and I think that they probably enjoy the 205 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:53.679 attention that this brought. You know, they already won their 206 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:57.159 lawsuit over this case, so they're no real ramifications other 207 00:10:57.240 --> 00:10:59.879 than people learning that they have to question what they want. 208 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.559 They can't trust documentaries. So there hasn't been really been 209 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.559 any blowblack from Netflix. And I don't think Netflix told 210 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:08.519 people to not buy our film. I think that people 211 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:12.080 were just it's just acts of self preservation for people 212 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:13.679 who may want to work there one day and that's 213 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:15.200 really the problem we had in Hollywood. 214 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:17.360 To be honest with you, Candace Owens has made some 215 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:21.840 public statements, we'll say on Russell Brand's podcast, What to 216 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:27.720 her does this documentary series demonstrate, as she's mentioned about 217 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:29.440 police the attitude? 218 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:32.200 I think that, first of all, you know, the police 219 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:35.120 aren't always wrong. The news loves to highlight when there's 220 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:39.440 a tragedy such as you know, George Floyd, but you know, 221 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:41.960 they don't point out that these are these are literally 222 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:44.720 soldiers who go out and lay their life in the 223 00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:47.200 line every day for our protection. So I think that 224 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:50.039 that Candice is cognizant in that, and she of course 225 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:52.879 can speak for herself, but I'm just paraphrasing her views. 226 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:55.759 I believe, and I think that she also believes that, 227 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.879 you know, this is just a ten hour piece of 228 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:01.840 fake news. To put it quite frankly, that making a murderer, 229 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.279 that Hollywood got away with a ten hour piece of 230 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:06.320 fake news, and somebody has to correct the record. And 231 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:08.759 I think that's why she enjoyed being involved. 232 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:13.679 You mentioned the term the innocence industry, and this documentary series, 233 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:18.120 the second part features somebody that claims to be just 234 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:21.200 an advocate for the innocent, and she's a very very 235 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:25.759 strong character and leading character in this documentary Making a Murderer. 236 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.320 What about Kathleen Zelner? What about this documentary series? What 237 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:34.720 do they theorize or have to say about Kathleen Zelner in. 238 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:37.840 This Believe It or Not? We don't touch on that attorney. 239 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:40.519 On Kathleen Zelener. She was in season two and we 240 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:43.480 pretty much focus on season one of Making a Murderer. 241 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:46.399 Kathleen Zelner is the best at what she does. I 242 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:50.360 think that a lot of what she laid out in 243 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:53.159 season two of Making a Murderer is a stretch. I 244 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:56.440 think she's in a kind of a tough position representing 245 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:59.919 someone I think is probably guilty. But if Stephen Avery 246 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.480 he won one hundred million dollars in the lottery and 247 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:04.679 went to twenty legal experts and said, who do I 248 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.440 get as my attorney, he would not change attorneys. They 249 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.799 would tell him he needs Kathleen Zelener. So he's got 250 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:12.320 the best he could possibly have in this business. And 251 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:16.200 she's done miracles with people who are innocent. So we 252 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:19.480 don't touch on her in the first season of Convicting 253 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:22.679 a Murderer. That doesn't mean we won't eventually our series. 254 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.759 I'm not sure we even mentioned her in our ten hours. Wow. 255 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:31.600 Okay, let's get to some specifics about what is examined 256 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:33.600 in this docu series. 257 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.559 In this documentary series, if you're referring to evidence pretty 258 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:41.080 much everything, we go through the blood viol and just 259 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:44.000 would an agregious that that was in making a murder? 260 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.559 How the whole environment nothing And I think a lot 261 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:48.879 of people figured that out pretty soon if they had 262 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:53.480 any relationship to Phlebotomus, who would easily explain that. But 263 00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:56.399 the tape that you know, why the seal was broken 264 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:59.320 was because in the nineteen or the two thousand and 265 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.759 three they needed to collect some samples. So it was 266 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:07.480 literally Stephen's attorneys and the state were presidently unsealed that. 267 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:09.600 So the blood file, we kind of go through every 268 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:12.879 piece of evidence that making a murder covered and just 269 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:17.320 go through from another perspective. And was there anything in particular, Dan, 270 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:19.960 that you were wondering about, like the bullets, the blood 271 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.000 in the grund Brendan's role, and we touched on all 272 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:23.279 of that. 273 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.279 Yes, Well, I mean the thing is you mentioned in 274 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:29.120 the trailer, it is mentioned that one of the keys 275 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:31.720 is the key, so blood on the key. 276 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:34.600 Right, the key that was found in Stephen's bedroom. 277 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:38.120 That is probably the most controversial piece of evidence from 278 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:41.960 a planting perspective. A lot of people still to this day, 279 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:44.360 even people that believe in is guilt, think, well, it's 280 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:47.399 possible the police could have still planted that. But the 281 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.600 one thing that isn't shown in making a murder is 282 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:55.440 a better explanation of how it possibly could have gotten there. 283 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:58.279 So it's not like we're saying, oh, here's what happened. 284 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:01.759 I think we're showing from the perpet that it's probable 285 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.080 that it could have happened this way. But you were 286 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:07.320 never given that opportunity because making a murder never share 287 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:11.440 that information. So, for instance, there was a gap in 288 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:14.679 the back of the bookcase and you never saw that. 289 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.440 So when the officers were explaining how they were putting 290 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.759 the binders back that they weren't collecting, they were actually 291 00:15:21.799 --> 00:15:25.559 there to collect his computer and his porn collection. So 292 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:28.240 when they were shoving the binders back that they weren't 293 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.720 collecting for evidence, it kind of got stuck and they 294 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:35.320 jammed it in real hard, and it was theorized that 295 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:38.519 the back of the bookcase popped open. And however the 296 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:41.360 key was tucked in back there kind of bounced oll it, 297 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.960 which from an amateur perspective of experimenting, No, we never 298 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:47.639 went and tried to test that with anyone who who 299 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:50.720 could prove that, But there were a lot of amateurs 300 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.919 online doing that and showing videos of it, and it 301 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.440 actually didn't work like that. Of course we didn't include that, 302 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.440 but just from a perspective of how deep the got 303 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.799 into this, everybody was doing these amateur experiments offline too. 304 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.120 But so to recover the key, Andy Colburn talks about 305 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:09.799 that in the series. He explains what he believed we 306 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:11.879 showed the back of a bookcase and how it is 307 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.440 possible that it could have happened the way Colburn described 308 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:18.360 and the other officers described. There were three of them 309 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:20.879 in the in the room. There's pretty much no way 310 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.080 that an officer could come in and stand at the 311 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:28.039 doorway and toss the key on the floor without the calling. 312 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:31.039 You met officer sitting on the bed literally two feet 313 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:35.000 away and say, oh, look there's a key, So you'd 314 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:37.240 have to guess. My perspective on it has always been 315 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:39.679 if you were going to plant that key, and you're 316 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:41.039 the officer that planted. 317 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:43.399 You're the one that's doing it. You're not going to 318 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:44.360 be the one to find it. 319 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:47.480 You're not going to have it found that way when 320 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:50.720 they've already looked at that bookcase the priorate Saturday. So 321 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:52.639 my perspective on it was you're going to have the 322 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:56.080 calumet officer find it or someone else find And as 323 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:57.960 far as the blood on the key, it was actually 324 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:01.279 Stephen Avery's DNA on it and it was proven. 325 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:02.679 To be not blood, non blood. 326 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:05.680 Kathleen's owner did prove that it was skin cells, and 327 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:10.039 we said in the film was testimony from one of 328 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:14.680 the prosecutors talking to a prime lab expert just basically 329 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.759 explaining that well, if somebody had the key and there 330 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.000 was blood on it and he wiped it off, obviously 331 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:23.799 you know it's got blood on he wiped it off, 332 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.039 but then continued to touch it with his bare hands, 333 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:30.880 could that explain how that got on there? He stated, yes, 334 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:34.160 it would have eliminated anyone else's DNA on it because 335 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:37.519 blood is very strong, and then when he touched it 336 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.079 would have only shown his DNA. So that's kind of 337 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:43.079 how we explain the key. Kind of a nutshell overall. 338 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:45.279 How they found it, and why there was only Stephen 339 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:47.160 Avery's DNA on it not Teresa's. 340 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:52.319 What about the blood spatter evidence itself and the experts 341 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:55.119 used at Avery's trial, Well. 342 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.480 It depends on which blutch better. You're referring to a 343 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.839 referring to the rat okay for to teresa vehicle. Okay, 344 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:03.039 So Stephen's blood was found in the vehicle in six 345 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:07.400 different locations, planted in three different ways. So if you 346 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:09.960 have a planter that's going into the vehicle and he's 347 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:12.359 using a cue tip to paint on the blood by 348 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.920 the ignition in this certain way, and there's little smears 349 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:17.759 around it, which you don't see in making your murd 350 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:20.640 and there's little dots around it. The amount of detail 351 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:23.160 that was in that stain For someone to plant it, 352 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.279 I think we proved pretty well, would be very, very 353 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:29.720 difficult to plant with the coagulation timeline of blood. 354 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.359 Then you have the blood on her CD case, which 355 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:35.000 is a smear. 356 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:37.839 You have blood on the black back passenger door on 357 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:40.400 the inside doorframe of it, and then. 358 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:42.680 Of course you have Teresa's blood in the back of 359 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:43.279 the vehicle. 360 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:46.039 One of the things that came from I believe it 361 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:47.839 was season two I just throw that out there, is 362 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.039 why weren't they mixed? If there was blood in the vehicle, 363 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.839 Steven's blood and Teresa's blood, why are they not together? 364 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:54.319 Right? 365 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:56.680 And I thought, well, that doesn't make any sense. Why 366 00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:59.319 would they be together. They didn't bleed at the same time. 367 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:03.319 He was in his vehicle more than once. Obviously he 368 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:04.960 had to put it in the garage to hide it, 369 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:07.680 let's say, and then he had a drive that put 370 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:10.000 it where it was found, and then when he put 371 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:12.440 trace in the vehicle wouldn't have been the same time, 372 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:13.880 So why would they be mixed? 373 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:15.880 So that always just made me wonder. I just wanted 374 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:16.519 to throw that out there. 375 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.200 But the blood spotter, to me, was very convincing and 376 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.079 honestly probably the most difficult for. 377 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:27.160 Anyone to debunk that it wasn't Steve it actively bleeding. 378 00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:29.079 And the other thing we point out is he bled 379 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:32.359 in his own vehicle in similar patterns, So he had 380 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:35.319 blood dripping on the console in his very own vehicle. 381 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.400 So how do you explain It's it's not likely that 382 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:41.279 he bled in the rav four, but he bled in 383 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:44.160 his own vehicle and that is his blood, So we 384 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:46.680 point that out too. It's like, just okay, let's look 385 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:49.039 at Akham's rais or what's more likely. And I think 386 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:51.440 if you do that with every piece of evidence, you 387 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:55.319 find pretty quickly that Okham's raiser will completely prove to you. 388 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.039 The much easier way of doing this would be Stephen 389 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:01.599 actively blood in the vehicle is faith in this series? 390 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.359 Do you point out the major deceptive film techniques that 391 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:08.559 they use that you spoke. 392 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:09.440 About, Yes, we do. 393 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:13.559 We compare them side by side with actual testimony, just 394 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:17.680 like what they eliminated and what we believe the reason 395 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:19.720 was to why they eliminated it. 396 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:22.160 So I'll give you one example real quick. 397 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:26.279 Down there's a call in the beginning where the narrative 398 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:28.680 is that the police framed Avery to save thirty six 399 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:31.440 million dollars in this lawsuit, right, so they targeted him 400 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:32.000 im media. 401 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:35.079