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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 2: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 5: Good evening. This is your host Stan Zupaski for the
Speaker 5: program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in True crime
Speaker 5: History and the authors that have written about them. Choe
Speaker 5: Oil Mountain lies nineteen miles east of Mount Everest on
Speaker 5: the border between Tibetan Nepal. To the elite mountaineering community,
Speaker 5: it's known as the sixth highest mountain in the world.
Speaker 5: To Tibetan's Cho Oil represents a gateway to freedom through
Speaker 5: the secret glacial path, the Nangpala. On September thirty, two
Speaker 5: thousand and six, gunfire echoed through the thin air near
Speaker 5: advanced base camp on Cho Oyu, and climbers preparing the
Speaker 5: summit watched in horror as Chinese border guards fired at
Speaker 5: a group of Tibetans fleeing to India via Nepal. Murder
Speaker 5: in the High Himalaya is the unforgettable account of the
Speaker 5: brutal killing of Kelsang Namso, a seventeen year old Tibetan
Speaker 5: un fleeing with the group to Dharmasala to escape religious persecution.
Speaker 5: Kelsang's death is a painful example of Tibet's oppression by China,
Speaker 5: but this time a human rights atrocity was witnessed and
Speaker 5: documented by dozens of Western climbers. Their moral dilemma was plain,
Speaker 5: would they tell the world what they had seen. The
Speaker 5: center of the story as an American climber stuck with
Speaker 5: a crisis of conscience who gambled with his career to
Speaker 5: speak out, and a young Tibetan girl who sacrificed her
Speaker 5: rights who ever returned to the bet by telling the
Speaker 5: Western media about the murder of her best friend. Both
Speaker 5: risked their futures to expose the abuses of China in
Speaker 5: Tibet and paid a terrible price. The book this Evening
Speaker 5: featured is Murder in the High Himalaya, Loyalty, Tragedy and
Speaker 5: Escape from Tibet, with my special guest, journalist and author
Speaker 5: Jonathan Green, Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview,
Speaker 5: and welcome to the program. Jonathan Green, Hi, Dan.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you very much. And first off, I'm going
Speaker 5: to say a very great read and an incredible book,
Speaker 5: and I'm sure our audience will enjoy hearing about it
Speaker 5: this evening. Now, first off, I wanted to ask you
Speaker 5: why did you decide to write this book? What was
Speaker 5: it about this story that compelled you to write this book?
Speaker 1: Incredibly important story because China is in the ascendant, they're
Speaker 1: number two economically now behind the United States, and within
Speaker 1: China there's a very brutal suppression of ethnic minorities. And
Speaker 1: this particular story is incredibly rare because the murder of
Speaker 1: Kelsang Namso, the one of the characters in my book,
Speaker 1: was documented in film by Western climbers, which is a rarity.
Speaker 1: Like we know these human rights abuses occur all the
Speaker 1: time in China, but we never get to hear about
Speaker 1: them because of the suppression and because China is very
Speaker 1: I'm effective at making sure that stories like this don't
Speaker 1: come out and you never hear about them. But in
Speaker 1: this one instance, circumstances were absolutely bang on that the
Speaker 1: word that the murder was to witness and films and
Speaker 1: you can see the clip on YouTube. But it made
Speaker 1: this very compelling and I was particularly shocked, like everybody
Speaker 1: else was, when this unfolded as an international news story
Speaker 1: in two thousand and six. But I particularly wanted to
Speaker 1: know who the characters were. Who was this sort of
Speaker 1: figure falling in the snow at nineteen thousand feet and
Speaker 1: why were people shooting, and who witnessed this and who
Speaker 1: were they? And you know, it started me on a
Speaker 1: very long journey.
Speaker 5: Now let's go back a little bit too, really for
Speaker 5: those people that don't know, and there's probably most people
Speaker 5: that know as much as that you've unfolded in your book,
Speaker 5: and would you've given the given the reader through your
Speaker 5: book is the history of Tibet in China. So if
Speaker 5: you could give us the why China wanted to dominate
Speaker 5: Tibet and what that meant in terms of the Tibetans
Speaker 5: and the Dali Lama. So if you could briefly explain
Speaker 5: the importance of the Dali Lama in this entire story
Speaker 5: to Tibetans and China and explain that to give us
Speaker 5: a real historical background to the story, which is vital.
Speaker 1: Tibet is the highest country in the world. It's at
Speaker 1: the very top of the globe, but you know parts
Speaker 1: of it well, it's like the average heights of this
Speaker 1: is twelve thousand feet, which is as high as the
Speaker 1: tallest to mountains in Colorado. Before nineteen fifty it was
Speaker 1: an independent country which bordered China. Mao Zedong decided the Tibet,
Speaker 1: which is a huge country, it's the size of Western Europe,
Speaker 1: that it would be beneficial to China to have bath
Speaker 1: as pass of China. So he invaded with his armies
Speaker 1: and took the country by force. At that time, arm
Speaker 1: Tibet was a theocracy, but most people there have allegiance
Speaker 1: to the Dalai Lama and Tibetan to Buddhism, and the
Speaker 1: Dalai Lama tried to deal with mouth for several years.
Speaker 1: And then in nineteen fifty nine, nine years after the
Speaker 1: Chinese army invaded, realized that his own life was at
Speaker 1: great risk, so he made the very dangerous journey over
Speaker 1: the mountains and went to live in India where he
Speaker 1: now lives in exile. And you know, rough three thousand
Speaker 1: Tibetans a year make this dangerous journey over the mountains
Speaker 1: to be with him today, Tibet said, you know, it's
Speaker 1: under Chinese rule. Many Tibetans feel that they, you know,
Speaker 1: that they're occupied by a foreign power. China insists that
Speaker 1: Tibet is past of China and parts of their territory,
Speaker 1: and therein lives the conflict.
Speaker 5: Now two, you've talked about the Dali Lama, and but
Speaker 5: to Tibetans and in Chinese, there's a complete difference on
Speaker 5: the interpretation and how they speak of the Dali Lama.
Speaker 5: So to Tibetans, what is really the Dali Lama to
Speaker 5: them really in personal personified and and how do the
Speaker 5: Chinese care to rise the same Dali Lama in their
Speaker 5: propaganda and to other Chinese and to Tibetans went in there.
Speaker 5: We'll talk a little bit later about this re education process.
Speaker 1: Tibetan's believe that the Dalai Lama is a god in
Speaker 1: human form, that he is here in his current incarnation
Speaker 1: to help people achieve compassion, to make the world's best place,
Speaker 1: and to bring peace. But he is outultimately arm a
Speaker 1: deity om a god. The Chinese governments uh see the
Speaker 1: Dialai Lama as a very grave threats to their claims
Speaker 1: over Tibet. Because Tibetan's allegiances to the Dalai Lama and
Speaker 1: he now lives in exile. The Chinese governments say that
Speaker 1: they call him a splicist arm and because a jackal
Speaker 1: and a wolf in monks robes, and they say that
Speaker 1: all he wants to do is to split the country
Speaker 1: up and to split China because the Dalai Lama doesn't
Speaker 1: believe that Tibet you know, that Tibet should have some
Speaker 1: sensible autonomy, It should be its own thing. So you know,
Speaker 1: there's two completely different points of view. And Tibetans are
Speaker 1: very spiritual and religious, and the Chinese government tries to
Speaker 1: ensure that most Chinese people are atheists. They don't. They
Speaker 1: try to make sure that people don't believe in any
Speaker 1: type of religion because they see that as a threat
Speaker 1: to their hold on power. You know, they don't want
Speaker 1: people to have any other allegiance but to the Chinese
Speaker 1: Communist Party.
Speaker 5: Now, the other thing that the Chinese you say that
Speaker 5: the reject religion. And but there is about fifteen percent
Speaker 5: of Tibetan's livers monks and nuns and practice Buddhism and
Speaker 5: how is their life in Tibet trying to be among
Speaker 5: practicing monks and nuns. What is their life like in
Speaker 5: Tibet under those circumstances.
Speaker 1: It's very difficult. Indeed, it's very tightly regulated because the
Speaker 1: government in New York Doris's believe any source of religion
Speaker 1: is a threat. I mean in you know, modern day China,
Speaker 1: Chris Tianity is a threat. So there are underground churches
Speaker 1: in Tibet. They see Buddhism as a threat. So anyone
Speaker 1: who wants to become a monk or nanor to follow
Speaker 1: any sources of spiritual path, it's very tightly regulated, and
Speaker 1: it's seen as a political act. They Doris's see us
Speaker 1: as a very grave threat to their hold on power there.
Speaker 1: So monks and nuns are singled out for particular punishment.
Speaker 1: And for many years we've hoped, you know, heard of
Speaker 1: the gravest human rights abuses. People locked up and jailed
Speaker 1: and tortured and beaten and interrogated. In some cases, you know,
Speaker 1: they've been killed. It's it's endless, really, it's they see
Speaker 1: any form of religion as a threat.
Speaker 5: Now you begin your book very dramatically with the introduction
Speaker 5: of one of the main characters and the person that
Speaker 5: she's in a family. It's also the main characters in
Speaker 5: your story. But this is an eight year old named Dolma,
Speaker 5: and her mother Naima, and her brother Rinsen, and then
Speaker 5: there's a younger brother as well. Introduce our audience to
Speaker 5: who these people really were. Tell us first about Naima,
Speaker 5: she's an independent woman. And tell us when this story
Speaker 5: takes place. When you begin with the eight year old
Speaker 5: named Dolma, and tell us about their life, and you
Speaker 5: can go as far as when the PSB guards and
Speaker 5: you can explain who those people are and why that
Speaker 5: story is a strong indication of things to come, and
Speaker 5: also why you included that in the very dramatic beginning
Speaker 5: of your book, about the officers coming in and looking
Speaker 5: for something from this family here. So please explain that
Speaker 5: for us, please.
Speaker 1: They came from a rural path to best It's a
Speaker 1: place called Dreary County, which is way up in the mountain.
Speaker 1: It's very high altitude, it's a very tough environment, very inhosvisible.
Speaker 1: You know, it's minus thirty in the winters. They have
Speaker 1: a very short kind of summer, and you know, life
Speaker 1: is extremely tough, but Tibetans have lived like this for,
Speaker 1: you know, thousands of years. Dolma, who's the main character
Speaker 1: in my book, she'd lived with her mother and sister
Speaker 1: and her brother there. And I start my book with
Speaker 1: how you know as a young girl, she was eight
Speaker 1: years years old, that the police came to sort of visit.
Speaker 1: And if you're a Tibetan, you get very used to
Speaker 1: the police turning up at any time, day or night,
Speaker 1: and they're always looking for some type of infraction of
Speaker 1: the rules. And in modern day Tibet, you can go
Speaker 1: to prison for five years just for having a photograph
Speaker 1: of the Dalai Lama. It's concreted contrabrand and people aren't
Speaker 1: allowed to have these photographs, and you know, you can
Speaker 1: go to prison for it. So my book opens with
Speaker 1: the story with Dolma, who's eight years old, with the
Speaker 1: police knocking on the door and turning the house upside
Speaker 1: down looking for pictures of the Dalai Lama. And uh,
Speaker 1: you know, all Tibetans have an unswerving allegiance to the
Speaker 1: Dalai Lama, so most people have pictures of him, but
Speaker 1: they hide them. So the police come all the time
Speaker 1: to try to find them.
Speaker 5: Now, that's pervading attitude. Is from from I get from
Speaker 5: your book is that the people defied the Chinese authorities
Speaker 5: and keep whatever treasured pictures that they have of the
Speaker 5: Dali Lama in defiance of that. So they so so
Speaker 5: that they're very resistant to the Chinese rule and and
Speaker 5: there's not much cooperation with them. Now. You also introduced
Speaker 5: Dolma's best friend next door, Dolkar Tomsol. Maybe you can
Speaker 5: tell us that what Dorma's life was like, but uh,
Speaker 5: maybe a little bit about her her friend Dolkar Tomso.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were basically her best friends. They that they were.
Speaker 1: The Doma was, you know, was a year younger, Dolka
Speaker 1: Tomsy was a year older, and they were very different.
Speaker 1: Doma was you know, understated and reasoned and balanced, and Dolka,
Speaker 1: who lived next door, was very impetuous and very passionate,
Speaker 1: and you know, you saw that the path of her
Speaker 1: life was to follow to Buddhism. She she you know,
Speaker 1: felt a particular calling to the religious life.
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Speaker 1: Plus, and I think Dolma was not quite so drawn
Speaker 1: to that, but she supported her friend, and therein uh
Speaker 1: you know, begins their allegiance to the Dalai Lama, which
Speaker 1: put them on a direct collision course with the your
Speaker 1: thorities in China and led to the events that unfold
Speaker 1: in my book.
Speaker 5: Now, how long does it take you introduce Dolma at
Speaker 5: eight years old? How long does it take for her
Speaker 5: to grow up in a society that you need to
Speaker 5: mature very very quickly and take on a lot of
Speaker 5: responsibilities just to survive. You talk about their their humble
Speaker 5: existence where burning their fuel is yack dung, and then
Speaker 5: you even talk about how sometimes the officers would come
Speaker 5: by and even take a certain portion of that. So
Speaker 5: it was a really hard scrabble life. So tell us
Speaker 5: what her life was like growing up and what did
Speaker 5: she lean towards. We obviously know that a Dolkar was
Speaker 5: leaning towards being a nun and and and dedicating her
Speaker 5: life to Buddhism. Tell us what Dolmar's life was and
Speaker 5: what her focus was and her interest.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, as I said, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a particularly tough environment. I mean, because it's such
Speaker 1: high altitude, there isn't really very much wood, so you know,
Speaker 1: in order to stay warm you have to have a fuel,
Speaker 1: so they burn yak dung and yaksa like these big
Speaker 1: cows that sort of high altitude castle. And it's really
Speaker 1: that's how Tibetans survive from milk, you know, hide meat.
Speaker 1: So Dolmra had to grow up very fast. You know.
Speaker 1: She took you know, household chores and a lots of responsibility,
Speaker 1: and sometimes she and Dolker would go up to very
Speaker 1: you know, go down to lure altitudes to get wood
Speaker 1: or up sort of neighboring kind of mountains, and you
Speaker 1: know life was I mean to life was tough. But
Speaker 1: then Tibetans are very used to living in that way.
Speaker 1: You know, they don't know anything any kind of difference.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you went there as your I you know,
Speaker 1: very used to Western comforts, it would be incredibly tough.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: So it's it's sort of humble in that way. But
Speaker 1: you know, there's a very strong spirituality and in daily
Speaker 1: life and family bonds very strong, and I think Doma
Speaker 1: grew up you know, she loved her mother. They had
Speaker 1: a very close relationship, and I don't think she thought,
Speaker 1: you know, she was this sort of average teenager. Really,
Speaker 1: I mean she I didn't produced her the age of eight,
Speaker 1: but you see her life flower and you know, but
Speaker 1: then things started to change, you know, when she was
Speaker 1: sixteen or seventeen.
Speaker 5: Right now, you also include which I thought was very interesting.
Speaker 5: Maybe you can explain why you included this. You talked about,
Speaker 5: you know, the hard scrabble existence, but that there was
Speaker 5: a boom of a boom of sorts by the discovery
Speaker 5: by athletes that were interested in a fungus that grew
Speaker 5: at this high altitude. So maybe you can tell us
Speaker 5: how that story intersects with the complete story itself or
Speaker 5: why you included that far.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a particularly self place.
Speaker 1: You know, people have to make do with what they have,
Speaker 1: and in recent years, corter SEPs it's called, which is
Speaker 1: oddly enough, it's caterpillar fungus, which is seen. It's a
Speaker 1: big component of Chinese medicine and Eastern medicine, and it's
Speaker 1: meant to have all these qualities. You know, it's meant
Speaker 1: to I mean, it's basically meant to do everything that
Speaker 1: brings you back to life after you die, it can.
Speaker 1: It can heal you if you're sick, it can. It's
Speaker 1: an afro physiac and and it's really work worth a
Speaker 1: lot of money. They call it soft gold. And where
Speaker 1: Dolma lived was a particularly rich area in this and
Speaker 1: that was how the family really managed to survived. You know,
Speaker 1: they collected this in the grasslands and then sold it,
Speaker 1: and that's how they were able to buy things like
Speaker 1: a motor cycle and out bet the house and said,
Speaker 1: you know, to be able to go into Lasa, which
Speaker 1: is the capital of Tibet on pilgrimage and shopping trips
Speaker 1: and things like that.
Speaker 5: Now, and Dolma and Dorcard spoke about door Card being
Speaker 5: a nun and dedicated her life to Buddhism. There's a
Speaker 5: catch to this as well, because isn't there a talk of,
Speaker 5: just like the Dala Lama with fleeing to India, that
Speaker 5: if you wanted to really practice this religion maybe I'm
Speaker 5: getting this wrong, that you would inevitably would want to escape.
Speaker 5: And the center of this story is also this old
Speaker 5: cho oil and it's a secret path and it's known
Speaker 5: for people escaping. So was there talk between the two
Speaker 5: girls above this and what would mean and tell us
Speaker 5: about that. I think that was fascinating part of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's I mean, people hate to draw
Speaker 1: this analogy, but I'm going to draw it anyway. It's
Speaker 1: you know, if you're a Christian and you were offered
Speaker 1: the choice to meet Jesus Christ, then I'm sure many
Speaker 1: people would take a very grave risk to be able
Speaker 1: to do that. Sure as a Buddhist meeting the Dalai
Speaker 1: Lama is exactly the same thing. It's it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's really sort of like a meeting with God. Because
Speaker 1: the Dalai Lama left the country and he lives in India,
Speaker 1: and the Chinese don't want anybody going to visit him
Speaker 1: because they see him as a political threat. I mean,
Speaker 1: probably much in the same way that the Roman Empire
Speaker 1: saw Jesus Christ as a threat. They so the really
Speaker 1: the the the only way to see him is to
Speaker 1: do so illegally and to undertake an incredibly dangerous journey
Speaker 1: over the Himalaya. You know, the high mountains were very
Speaker 1: little food because you can't announce the or doritors that
Speaker 1: you're going, and so that really, you know, that was
Speaker 1: really like the way that so Dolka was sort of going.
Speaker 1: She felt that, you know, because the Buddhism in Tibet
Speaker 1: was so tightly regulated that things were so tough. It
Speaker 1: was they often the two girls discussed, I'm escaping and
Speaker 1: running over the mountains and getting to see the Dalai Lama.
Speaker 5: Okay, now you talk about a climber. Now you fast
Speaker 5: forward to the other part of the story, you know,
Speaker 5: almost diametrically opposed, and the other side of the world
Speaker 5: and some famous mountain climbers, and the whole business of
Speaker 5: mountain climbing on the sixth highest mountain in the world
Speaker 5: a real challenge to people. Explain that whole industry to us,
Speaker 5: and then you can introduce a couple of the characters
Speaker 5: like mister Benette Benitez and a couple of other people
Speaker 5: that end up being central characters in this story as well.
Speaker 5: Explain that whole industry to our audience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the whole mountaineering industry has has expanded to
Speaker 1: such huge levels in the past thirty or forty years.
Speaker 1: I mean, it used to be such a rarity to
Speaker 1: climb mounts have rest. Now there's you know, there's hundreds
Speaker 1: of people every year who go and you know, it
Speaker 1: really is, and it's a very expensive sport. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you want to go and climb Mount Everest, it's
Speaker 1: going to cost you at least seventy thousands of dollars
Speaker 1: and you're going to have to take three or four
Speaker 1: months off work. So that whole industry even, you know,
Speaker 1: it's grown and expanded and got huge, and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of companies operating and the Himalaya now and they
Speaker 1: offer these trips to people. You know, you can be
Speaker 1: anyone just as long as you've got the money and
Speaker 1: you know you have some experience, and I mean or
Speaker 1: very often they don't answer any experience at all, and
Speaker 1: they will take you up to the top of these mountains.
Speaker 1: So these are some of the most remote parts of
Speaker 1: the world. And when that happens, you start to interact
Speaker 1: with people from places life to bed.
Speaker 5: Now main character is is Benitez. And I thought was
Speaker 5: interesting is that you obviously talk about his entire background
Speaker 5: and to illustrate his motivation for wanting to be this adventurer.
Speaker 5: And I thought it was interesting how you talk about
Speaker 5: his early health and how he overcame this, and I
Speaker 5: think this is part of it. So maybe explain that
Speaker 5: how he did what he did overcome in his early
Speaker 5: life and why probably that this life that he had
Speaker 5: made for himself was even a little more special as
Speaker 5: a result. Tell us a little bit about Benitez.
Speaker 1: Sure, he's an American from Missouri, I'm originally saying the
Speaker 1: and he from a very very young age became fascinated
Speaker 1: with climbing mountains, and I think from his father's some
Speaker 1: national geographic magazines. And he had very bad childhood asthma
Speaker 1: and allergies, and everybody said it would be impossible for
Speaker 1: him to be, you know, anything like a mountain climber,
Speaker 1: because he simply didn't, you know, have the lung capacity.
Speaker 1: But he was a very determined young man and became
Speaker 1: obsessed with the outdoors and climbing and built up his
Speaker 1: stamina by climbing in Ecuador, which is where his father
Speaker 1: is from, and slowly became obsessed with mountain climbing and
Speaker 1: was a very successful guide and started to work for
Speaker 1: some of the big companies who work in the Himalaya.
Speaker 1: And it was his ultimate ambition to climb Mount Everest.
Speaker 5: Right now, you talked about him working for a company,
Speaker 5: You talked about the industry but I was amazed at
Speaker 5: the groups, how big the groups some of the groups
Speaker 5: were for this, and the kind of money, and also
Speaker 5: that he had a pretty strong ego enough to didn't
Speaker 5: he have an agent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all it's all part of the modern you know,
Speaker 1: the modern sports of mountain climbing. Is it's completely different
Speaker 1: from what you would expected. I mean, it's it's not
Speaker 1: these sort of rugged souls laboring away to the top selflessly.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's all about, you know, getting speaking engagements
Speaker 1: and book deals and movie deals and marketing yourself and
Speaker 1: you know, putting yourself out there and you know, it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's a big show. Really, that's where he was.
Speaker 2: This is.
Speaker 5: But primarily despite the ego, he loved the attention. He
Speaker 5: loved to be known for what he was doing, the
Speaker 5: celebrity of it. But really it seemed like he really
Speaker 5: overall loved the thrill of climbing more so than anything else.
Speaker 1: Yes, like I think he liked both. I mean, he
Speaker 1: took enormous pride in guiding people up to mountains and
Speaker 1: that's no sort of mean feet And very early on
Speaker 1: in his career he did for something extraordinary. He led
Speaker 1: a blind man all the way to the top of Everest,
Speaker 1: which would be, you know, an incredibly difficult thing to
Speaker 1: do because you know, climbing a mountain like that has
Speaker 1: all sorts of crevasses and dangers and if you can't
Speaker 1: see you know, that really is for one of the
Speaker 1: most crucial requisites in attempting anything like that. So really
Speaker 1: Benitas was his eyes in that case, and Bensas took
Speaker 1: an almost pride in taking this guy to the very top.
Speaker 5: And it really made a name for him at that time.
Speaker 5: It was a little earlier on in his career, so
Speaker 5: that really made a name for himself by by doing that,
Speaker 5: in achieving that. Yes, yes, Now, how this story intersects
Speaker 5: obviously is with Choi Oil Mountain and in terms of
Speaker 5: it's the sixth highest. But why is this mountain? Why
Speaker 5: is this mountain so preferred by climbers? Why is it
Speaker 5: such a special mountain for climbers? It's is it? Is
Speaker 5: it danger? Is it is its a location? What does it?
Speaker 5: What does it represent for climbers that makes it so special?
Speaker 5: Of the altitude, the danger, what is it?
Speaker 1: Well, it's the sixth highest mountain in the world. So
Speaker 1: just in that sort of sense, you know, it's like
Speaker 1: a sort of trophy for people to claim once they've
Speaker 1: climbed it. But it's a couple of thousand feet shorter
Speaker 1: than Mount Everest, but it's twenty eight thousand feet high,
Speaker 1: which is you know, huge, I mean, it's enormous. You know,
Speaker 1: the air on top is very thin, it's very hard
Speaker 1: to breathe. But the crucial difference between this mountain and
Speaker 1: Mount Severest or other ones is that there are very
Speaker 1: few technical aspects of this. And by technical aspects, I
Speaker 1: mean places where you have to use ropes or you know,
Speaker 1: ladders and things like that. On Mount Everest, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a number of parts like that which are treacherous.
Speaker 1: But the thing with Choi you is that apart from
Speaker 1: one section of the mountain, you can really walk up
Speaker 1: the entire thing. But because of that, people underestimates and
Speaker 1: they underestimate the effects of high altitudes, which are incredibly
Speaker 1: tough on the human for the body. So it's really
Speaker 1: seen as a warm up.
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Speaker 1: Mount Severest, which is why a lot of people climb it.
Speaker 5: Okay, now we're getting back to Dolmar and Dolcar. I
Speaker 5: found it interesting too. Maybe you can explain this as well.
Speaker 5: Is that from your book I got that rins In,
Speaker 5: Dolma's brother was a monk and didn't remain a monk.
Speaker 5: Maybe you can tell us why that happened. And and
Speaker 5: over a certain course of the of a of a year,
Speaker 5: Dolkar formed a close bond with Kelsang Lebron and he
Speaker 5: and he was at the local defunct monastery. So maybe
Speaker 5: you can explain the course of events that goes on
Speaker 5: in in Dolcar's life in the last year and her
Speaker 5: relationship with this Kelsang.
Speaker 1: Yeah, to Domar and Doka, but he best friends well,
Speaker 1: you know, as a grew older Dogcard decided that she
Speaker 1: absolutely wanted to become a Buddhist nun. So she was
Speaker 1: going to the local monastery and praying and you know,
Speaker 1: very heavily involved in the spiritualrual life, which was against
Speaker 1: her parents sort of wishes. You know, they were worried
Speaker 1: that their daughter would become become the target of the
Speaker 1: old doriters and it would make life very hard for her.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know, becoming a nun, she you know,
Speaker 1: she really could get into an awful loss of hot water.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, like teenagers like the world over,
Speaker 1: she was very like rebellious, and you know, she didn't
Speaker 1: care what her parents thought, and you know, she felt
Speaker 1: that her allegiance was to the dulied armor and to
Speaker 1: the spiritual life. So against everybody's to the wishes, she
Speaker 1: became a Buddhist nun. And she asked her best friend
Speaker 1: Omer if she would become become a nun too, And
Speaker 1: I think Dolma was you know, she was the more
Speaker 1: sort of reasoned, sensible one, and she probably decided that
Speaker 1: wasn't quite what she wanted to do. So her friend
Speaker 1: Dolka went and took her vows and renamed herself Kelsang Nanso,
Speaker 1: which means lake of jewels. And from that point on
Speaker 1: she was a Buddhist nun, which began to make life
Speaker 1: very hard because it's, you know, the whole thing's very
Speaker 1: tightly regulated. She came to the attention of the authorities
Speaker 1: and she became increasingly frustrated that she couldn't practice her
Speaker 1: faith in the way she wanted. So she decided that
Speaker 1: she really had no choice but to flee over the
Speaker 1: mountains and see and to go and see the Dali
Speaker 1: Lama and perhaps to be able to practice her religion
Speaker 1: in safety, which would be in northern India.
Speaker 5: Now she was planning her escape, and but she needed
Speaker 5: to speak with She couldn't just do this without anyone's approval.
Speaker 5: You said her mother didn't approve or her family didn't approve.
Speaker 5: But maybe you can explain and maybe I'm mispronouncing this.
Speaker 5: The geishi's approval.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the geisha is it's a very high to Buddhist degree.
Speaker 1: And in order to become a non or a monk,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to be ordained, you have to
Speaker 1: take your vows. And Dlka became very close with a
Speaker 1: geisha in the area who was also called Klsang that's
Speaker 1: where she she actually took his name and he was
Speaker 1: the one who, you know, uh, performed the ceremony and
Speaker 1: that's how she became a nun.
Speaker 5: Now, there was some planning on when she would leave,
Speaker 5: and she left with a group that we're traveling through Darmasala.
Speaker 5: How often would people attempt to flee, I mean, obviously
Speaker 5: she was in a group. Told us a little bit
Speaker 5: more about the organization of when they would leave and
Speaker 5: who would leave and who was in the group that
Speaker 5: was trying to flee.
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's top secret there. You know, people tried
Speaker 1: to go all the time, but if they get caught,
Speaker 1: then they immediately go to prison. So that's the first thing.
Speaker 1: And it's very likely that you'll get to the beaten
Speaker 1: and tortured because you're they regardless as a political act
Speaker 1: that you're you know, running away from China and you're
Speaker 1: going to see the Dalai Lama who they think is
Speaker 1: going to tear the country apart. He said, They come
Speaker 1: down on it very hard. So it's highly secrets. But
Speaker 1: in order to navigate this very dangerous journey over the
Speaker 1: high mountains, they have to find guides, and these guides
Speaker 1: are highly illegal then they operate, you know, on the
Speaker 1: very sort of fringes of society, and Dolma and Kelsang
Speaker 1: had to track down and find a guide who would
Speaker 1: take them, you know, smuggle them out of the country.
Speaker 1: And that's what they set about doing. And Kelsang was
Speaker 1: trying for a year or so to escape, and her
Speaker 1: parents knew that this is what she was attempting, and
Speaker 1: they kept trying to tell her not to to do.
Speaker 1: It was much too dangerous, but she persisted, and one day,
Speaker 1: through a friend of a friend, she managed to hear
Speaker 1: about someone who would take them out, who would get
Speaker 1: them out of the country. So Dalmar and Kelsang joined
Speaker 1: the group who were leaving.
Speaker 5: And that was I guess in September two thousand and six, Yes,
Speaker 5: near September thirtieth. So tell us about the actual day,
Speaker 5: it's very early in the day, or give us a
Speaker 5: background even the day before what had gone on and
Speaker 5: things had not gone the way they had thought originally.
Speaker 5: Pick us back to their journey.
Speaker 1: Well, it was all done on the spur at the moment.
Speaker 1: Because it's highly illegal, no one advertises the fact and
Speaker 1: you don't get much warning. And Kelsang had found this guide,
Speaker 1: and you know, she immediately went to her best friend
Speaker 1: Ohmer and said, look, I can get us out. You know,
Speaker 1: we can go to India. We can see the Dalai Lama.
Speaker 1: And I think Dolma so went along with it. She
Speaker 1: went along with her friends. So she went home and
Speaker 1: you know, they managed to scrabble up some money and
Speaker 1: some clothes, and in I think it was midnight, they
Speaker 1: you know, two cars came and they went behind the
Speaker 1: back of the houses at home and got into these
Speaker 1: cars and there began a very sort of sort of
Speaker 1: dangerous journey. They had to go to the capital of
Speaker 1: Tibet first and then they had to you know, start
Speaker 1: to travel over the mountains, and of course all the
Speaker 1: way along there's army checkpoints and military people, and you
Speaker 1: know there's spies. There are you know, people who dress
Speaker 1: up as monks and nuns, but they really sort of
Speaker 1: undercover Chinese Asians. So it's a very dangerous journey.
Speaker 5: Did was there something that Naima said to Dorma before
Speaker 5: she left? What did her mother say to Dorma.
Speaker 1: I think she said, just be you know, very careful
Speaker 1: and you know, take care of yourself. It's but you know,
Speaker 1: none of them. You know, Dorma's mother didn't want her
Speaker 1: to go. You know, nobody did.
Speaker 5: Right, but still it was a pretty strong response, or
Speaker 5: I mean, very encouraging despite not wanting her daughter to go.
Speaker 1: Of course, I mean they understand. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: it would be like here in the States if you
Speaker 1: said you were going to upsticks and going go and
Speaker 1: see God. I mean, I think people, you know, on
Speaker 1: a journey that may kill you well ultimately, I mean
Speaker 1: I think people would be against you going, but they'd
Speaker 1: understand why you did it.
Speaker 5: Yes, it just seems like a very seriously religious place
Speaker 5: where your convictions are very strong. That's all I could
Speaker 5: I could say with the mother realizing what's going on
Speaker 5: and despite that saying I know my daughter is going
Speaker 5: to leave, and I understand basically whether I don't.
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, you know, I think as we said,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Tibet's a particularly harsh place. It's
Speaker 1: a very tough place to live. And I think what
Speaker 1: sustains people is, you know, a very strong belief and
Speaker 1: a very strong spirit tuality. So even though you sort
Speaker 1: of grow up in this very tough environments, you have
Speaker 1: a very strong spirit and Tibetans are like no others
Speaker 1: in you know, that this overpowering spirituality that you know,
Speaker 1: they're willing to do everything for.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: Right now, let's get to the events on September thirty is,
Speaker 5: two thousand and six, to the tragic events. Maybe you
Speaker 5: can take us through that day from the beginning and
Speaker 5: what transpired in total.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Domar and Kelsang had joined this group. They'd managed
Speaker 1: to get to Lassa un detected, and then they were
Speaker 1: smuggled out of the city in the back of the truck.
Speaker 1: And there's only a certain way they can go in
Speaker 1: this truck before. You know, they can't just drive into
Speaker 1: India because they'll be caught. There's checkpoints. So the only
Speaker 1: way is to take this very high pass called banang
Speaker 1: Pala which goes up to nineteen thousand feet and it's
Speaker 1: all ice and snow and rocks and very very tough place.
Speaker 1: And the truck stops before that. But they had another,
Speaker 1: you know, at least ten days of walking to get
Speaker 1: over this high path and then down again into Nepal
Speaker 1: and then to get on into India. So they started working,
Speaker 1: started walking ten days earlier, and they had very little
Speaker 1: food and water or anything to sustain them because of
Speaker 1: course they couldn't have big backpacks with supplies because the
Speaker 1: old plorises would know what they were doing. So they
Speaker 1: really left with very little. And they started out on
Speaker 1: this trip and there were seventy five of them smuggling
Speaker 1: in the back of this truck with Domra and Kelsang,
Speaker 1: and people started to run out of food and ran
Speaker 1: out of water, and people just sort of slumped on
Speaker 1: the trail through exhaustion. And there were many children in
Speaker 1: the group as well, because many parents in Tibet send
Speaker 1: their you know kids to go and see the Dalai
Speaker 1: Lama and have an education in India, which are things
Speaker 1: that they can't have in Tibet. So it was incredibly
Speaker 1: arduous journey. And just when they got to the Nangpowa Pass,
Speaker 1: which is this you know, high altitude on the border
Speaker 1: between Tibetan Nepal, they intersected with Luis Benitez and these
Speaker 1: mounting climbers who were climbing Choiu, which overlooks this high pass.
Speaker 1: So these two groups converged over several weeks. They didn't
Speaker 1: know each other, you know, they came from completely different
Speaker 1: walks of life. You have, you know, starving Tibetan refugees
Speaker 1: with Dormer and cal Sang amongst them, and then coming
Speaker 1: the other way, you have very very rich Western climbers
Speaker 1: who come from you know, money and have decided that
Speaker 1: they want to climb this sort of mountain. So the
Speaker 1: two groups converged, But at the same time, there was
Speaker 1: a third group converging, which were Chinese border troops who
Speaker 1: somehow heard that refugees were escaping, and their orders are
Speaker 1: to shoot to kill anybody who's trying to unescape from Tibet.
Speaker 1: And that's really where, you know, the three narrative threads
Speaker 1: of my story converged. And then that's when the guns
Speaker 1: started to go off.
Speaker 5: Now you said that there was people documenting this, and
Speaker 5: we'll get to that as well. But what happens that
Speaker 5: actual day the border guards start firing on these people.
Speaker 5: Why are climbers shocked? Why is Louis Bonitaz shocked? Why
Speaker 5: are these climbers shocked? If this is something that people
Speaker 5: can expect, if they have orders to shoot to kill,
Speaker 5: maybe you could tell our audience why this is so unusual? Then?
Speaker 5: Why is everybody in shock? Is there something unusual about
Speaker 5: this particular day?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean you know, you climb to mountains in Pimolaire
Speaker 1: or Colorado or Alaska, and you know, the last thing
Speaker 1: you expect to see on these trips is soldiers, you know,
Speaker 1: firing on women and children and to refugees. So the
Speaker 1: climbers are up in camp and they're you know, waiting
Speaker 1: to do the next stage of their climb. And you know,
Speaker 1: modern climbers have all sorts of the meannesses. You know,
Speaker 1: they take you know, wine and who's up there, and
Speaker 1: they have you know, very good food. So you know,
Speaker 1: even though it's a pretty tough environment, they still have
Speaker 1: a sort of creature comforts of home. You know, they
Speaker 1: watch for DVDs and I think the previous night they've
Speaker 1: been kind of watching the Matrix, you know, in their tents,
Speaker 1: so you know, there's still a lot of sort of
Speaker 1: semblance of what happens back here in the States or
Speaker 1: anywhere else. And they wake up in the morning, you know,
Speaker 1: early in the morning, and they hear pops and they
Speaker 1: think it's somebody sort of letting off fire crackers because
Speaker 1: you know, it's at high altitude. What else could it be.
Speaker 1: Then quickly they see Chinese soldiers running into camp and
Speaker 1: guns out and blazing away, and they realize that obviously
Speaker 1: something's happening, and they see this sort of snaking row
Speaker 1: of ants, well what they think to look like ants,
Speaker 1: these these small black sort of figures, which you cause
Speaker 1: the refugees and Dormer and Kalsang are I'm amongst them,
Speaker 1: and the soldiers far away, and so when the bullets
Speaker 1: start to fly, you know, some people to get his.
Speaker 5: Now explain who how if I mispronounced this get if
Speaker 5: you could correct me, uh, Mattie and Pavlov Koljik Pavlov
Speaker 5: taking photographs and serge Mate video graphing or or videotaping
Speaker 5: some of this or the event itself. How did they
Speaker 5: become they were part of the climb with Benitez or
Speaker 5: explain how they became, how they came to be there
Speaker 5: and also were involved in documenting the murder and these
Speaker 5: soldiers shooting on these innocent people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there were I think around twenty to
Speaker 1: thirty X editions on Choiu at that time, so there
Speaker 1: were you know, at least one hundred climbers in advanced
Speaker 1: sort of base camp, which is where all this took place.
Speaker 1: Sergei Mattia was a Roumanian. He was actually a professional cameraman,
Speaker 1: but he was there on holiday, on vacation and wanted
Speaker 1: to climb this mountain. Then the whole thing that morning erupted.
Speaker 1: Soldiers started to come, they started to open fire, and
Speaker 1: you know, it was his first instinct to grab his camera,
Speaker 1: his video camera and to start filming it. And he
Speaker 1: knew very well that these were refugees. That who the
Speaker 1: soldiers were firing on was, you know, like it's there
Speaker 1: wasn't other soldiers, it was, it was refugees, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, so against the UN convention and all manner
Speaker 1: of other things. So he started to film. You have
Speaker 1: to understand that the atmosphere in China in modern day
Speaker 1: t best is very very oppressive, and China doesn't want
Speaker 1: this type of thing coming out. So the soldiers don't
Speaker 1: you know, they don't want people taking photographs, they don't
Speaker 1: want people filming this. And really, you know, you take
Speaker 1: your life in your hands, and it really is like
Speaker 1: the world West. And I think Sergi really put his
Speaker 1: life at Lesk, but was determined to film what was happening,
Speaker 1: which is what he did, and he captured this as
Speaker 1: the groups, as the group of refugees tried to escape,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I think there were probably twenty to thirty
Speaker 1: soldiers and they were, you know, blazing away with Ak
Speaker 1: forty sevens. And in the distance a small sort of
Speaker 1: figure fell down on the snow and collapsed in a
Speaker 1: heap and was high kept filming.
Speaker 5: And this figure that fell in the snow was the
Speaker 5: subject of our story, kel Sang.
Speaker 1: So yes, it was Kelsang who was shot in the
Speaker 1: back and killed almost instantly. I mean it was a murder,
Speaker 1: it was, it was. It was a murder of a refugee,
Speaker 1: and Sergium as high really to Rissy's life to film
Speaker 1: it and to have evidence of of this, which you know,
Speaker 1: which has never been done. I mean it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: China is always saying everything is fine there and it's okay,
Speaker 1: but Matthai had this evidence.
Speaker 5: Now, how does Louise Benitez become a more heroic figure
Speaker 5: in this? He he is worried about his business. He
Speaker 5: has this pretty big ego here he as an agent.
Speaker 5: But despite you know, his moral dilemma of you know,
Speaker 5: risking his career and we've alluded to that. Tell us
Speaker 5: what Louise Benitez does and says, and how his actions
Speaker 5: really affect this entire story.
Speaker 1: He looked on at all this, you know, shocked as
Speaker 1: much as everybody. I mean, he'd been on numerous climbing expeditions.
Speaker 1: He'd never seen anything like this. It was just, you know,
Speaker 1: he just didn't know what to make him. But he's
Speaker 1: just sort of slacked jored. His best reaction, I think
Speaker 1: was to get himself and his clients out of camp,
Speaker 1: for his own, for the safety, and for everybody else.
Speaker 1: And they carried on with the planners normal, and the
Speaker 1: plan was to climb up the mountain. They're about halfway up,
Speaker 1: so they packed all their stuff and started climbing up
Speaker 1: the mountain. And as they left camp and head up,
Speaker 1: they walked past this small black figure in the snow
Speaker 1: who was Kelsang namso that you know, they learned that
Speaker 1: much kind of later. But they carried on as climbers do,
Speaker 1: and walked past the body. And you know, we're very
Speaker 1: intense on reaching the summit, which is their goal. And Ben,
Speaker 1: he says, kept going and but this time he had
Speaker 1: a crisis of conscience. He began to realize that it
Speaker 1: will He knew that they were refugees and that he
Speaker 1: just witnessed a murder, but he didn't quite know what
Speaker 1: to do about it. So he kept climbing up the
Speaker 1: mountain and kept sort of going, and by the time
Speaker 1: he got to the next camp, I think he was
Speaker 1: very angry at sort of what he had seen, that
Speaker 1: these Chinese soldiers had opened fire on children and sort
Speaker 1: of refugees. So he decided that perhaps he was going
Speaker 1: to do something about it, so he broke camp. He
Speaker 1: let his clients carry up on their own, and he
Speaker 1: got back down to base camp, which is a couple
Speaker 1: of days after all this happened by this time, and
Speaker 1: sat down with his laptop and light connection and emailed
Speaker 1: out to a climbing website called x web about how
Speaker 1: he'd just seen Chinese soldiers murder a refugee. And that's
Speaker 1: how the story got out on the mountain, and that's
Speaker 1: how people started to hear about it. It started to, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, like reporters around the world started to get
Speaker 1: on the story. It came on all the networks, you know,
Speaker 1: and it was, you know, really the fact that China
Speaker 1: was was was kind of doing this, you know, so
Speaker 1: he you know, but I think at the time, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if he knew it or not, but certainly,
Speaker 1: you know, because China doesn't want people talking about this stuff.
Speaker 1: They banned people who speak about their human rights abuses.
Speaker 1: So by Luis doing this, he puts his own career
Speaker 1: at great risk because he had to be able to
Speaker 1: climb in the mountains for his livelihood.
Speaker 5: Right. The other part is the Sergei Matai is a
Speaker 5: guy thinking that maybe the Chinese will will retaliate for
Speaker 5: him shooting this footage. So it's interesting how paranoid he
Speaker 5: is and how he thinks that they can. They have
Speaker 5: a long arm to reach out to him. How does
Speaker 5: he get the footage out of the country, and where
Speaker 5: does he go and how does the world react when
Speaker 5: the story is broken through this footage and who is
Speaker 5: the first country to really step forward and do something.
Speaker 1: Well, he's of course absolutely paranoid that the soldiers have
Speaker 1: seen his film this, that there is actually evidence of this,
Speaker 1: which is like you know, to any other murder. And
Speaker 1: you know, people carrying out murders don't want sort of witnesses,
Speaker 1: and they particularly don't want somebody filming it. And the
Speaker 1: people who've carried it out, and you know, sergiay was was,
Speaker 1: you know, terrified that they knew what he had filmed.
Speaker 1: And you know, the atmosphere up in the climber's camp
Speaker 1: I think was very intimida thing. There were soldiers trying
Speaker 1: to find Tibetans and you know, really rounding everybody up.
Speaker 1: I mean, they caught forty sort of refugees and carted
Speaker 1: them all off to a prison and tortured them. And
Speaker 1: Sergiay had this tape and he kept it with him
Speaker 1: at all times and hid it in a pouch which
Speaker 1: he had like around his kind of waist, and then
Speaker 1: he and his climbing partners left and smuggled it out
Speaker 1: of the country and managed to get back home to Romania,
Speaker 1: where they were from. And immediately the Romanian television stations
Speaker 1: got hold of the tape and started to broadcast it.
Speaker 1: And this was really when the story took off the
Speaker 1: massive effect. I mean, Benie says. The American Climb had
Speaker 1: sort of emailed out about it, but with no pictures
Speaker 1: or footage, so you know, people, you know, people often
Speaker 1: don't trust these reports. You know, you have to have
Speaker 1: evidence of it. And Matai put out this tape which
Speaker 1: was broadcast and got bought by CNN and the BBC
Speaker 1: and started to be shown in the States and Europe.
Speaker 1: And this is when the whole story just kicked off.
Speaker 1: And I should add that because the day before, you know,
Speaker 1: the Chinese had been asked about this murder in the
Speaker 1: mountains from beneath Teza's email, and they'd said, no, you know,
Speaker 1: this is not being you know, so nothing's happened. There
Speaker 1: was a standard border in incident, but you know, and
Speaker 1: they were very vague about it and said sort of
Speaker 1: nothing had happened. But Matthias sort of footage changed all that.
Speaker 1: It changed everything. And here was irrare fusible evidence of
Speaker 1: a murder and the world could see that.
Speaker 5: And the world did react.
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean people, you know, people were absolutely shocked
Speaker 1: and appalled. And you know, his China about the host
Speaker 1: the Olympic game, you know, in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: a couple of years hence, and they're telling everyone that
Speaker 1: life in China's grace and everybody's really happy. And here,
Speaker 1: up on screens all over the world, the Chinese to
Speaker 1: the soldiers opening fire on children and people escaping, and
Speaker 1: quite clearly you can see a small black sort of
Speaker 1: figure falling in the Snow, which we discovered was Kelsang Snanso,
Speaker 1: a seventeen year old from Biu who wanted to get
Speaker 1: to India because she wanted to be able to practice
Speaker 1: her faith and to see Bedalai Lama.
Speaker 5: So her best friend Dorma makes it the freedom and
Speaker 5: tells the story. Tell us a little bit about.
Speaker 1: That, yeah to Dolma made it through and she got
Speaker 1: to India and again, you know, a key part of
Speaker 1: this book is that China tries to ensure nobody says
Speaker 1: anything about what happens there, that there's this conspiracy of
Speaker 1: silence that everybody's party to. And Dolma realized that by
Speaker 1: speaking out about this, she'd never be able to go home.
Speaker 1: She could never go back to China again. Well, she'd
Speaker 1: never go back to Tibet, so she could never go
Speaker 1: back to her family or to see her mother again.
Speaker 1: You know, she would be forever an outcast. And she decided,
Speaker 1: because of the memory to her friend and the fact
Speaker 1: that people don't hear the truth of what's happening in Tibet,
Speaker 1: to stand up and to tell tell the story, no
Speaker 1: mass of the cost, no matter of what it cost.
Speaker 1: She was going to say, fanned off and to tell
Speaker 1: what happened to her friend and how she was madgive
Speaker 1: So she proceeded to do that, and she gave interviews
Speaker 1: on television and radio. And you have to remember too
Speaker 1: that you know, she was really just a young girl.
Speaker 1: She was sixteen and had no experience of the West
Speaker 1: or like the outside world. So to stand up with
Speaker 1: that type of courage at that age, you know, against
Speaker 1: some military superpower, is extraordinary.
Speaker 5: Yes, it is absolutely, yes, an incredible story. And the
Speaker 5: story doesn't end there because Tibetans are emboldened and protests
Speaker 5: and so the story does not end anywhere near this.
Speaker 5: So there's much more to the story. Unfortunately, we've used
Speaker 5: up our hour and people will have to go out
Speaker 5: and purchase that book and read the rest the fascinating story.
Speaker 5: There is quite a bit left to the story. And
Speaker 5: I want to thank you very much Jonathan for coming
Speaker 5: on the program and talking about your book, Murdering the
Speaker 5: High Himalaya. It's been very enjoyable and very informative, and
Speaker 5: it's a great book.
Speaker 1: Like I say, thank you, Dan to my pleasure to
Speaker 1: enjoyed it too.
Speaker 5: Now, I wanted to tell people that it's Murdering the
Speaker 5: High Himalaya and Jonathan Green is the author. I guess
Speaker 5: you can get this book anywhere. Barnes and Noble everywhere
Speaker 5: their favorite bookstore obviously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Amazon too, I think you know, it's it's cheapest.
Speaker 1: I think Amazon and Noble at the moment.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, they do a great job, you
Speaker 5: know for sure. Well, I want to thank you very
Speaker 5: much again for coming on the program and talking about
Speaker 5: your great book Murdering the High Himalaya, Loyalty, Tragedy and
Speaker 5: Escape from Tibet. And I want to thank you very
Speaker 5: much for coming on and have yourself a great evening, Jonathan,
Speaker 5: Thank you, my pleasure, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Good night.
Speaker 5: You've been listening to the program True Murder, the most
Speaker 5: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 5: have written about them, with your host Dan Zapaski with
Speaker 5: my special guest, Jonathan Green, a Murder in the High Himalaya.
Speaker 5: Good evening,