WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:04.000 With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.599 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen 3 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:08.480 the bride and broom? 4 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:10.599 Sri? Sorry we're here. 5 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:12.679 We were getting lucky in the limo when we lost 6 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:13.199 track of time. 7 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:16.760 No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up 8 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:18.519 quicker than a guess registered Well. 9 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:20.399 In that case, I pronounce you lucky. 10 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:23.440 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. 11 00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:24.920 Daily bonuses are waiting. 12 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:26.280 No purchase necessary boid. 13 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:28.960 We're prohibited by lock EIGHTEAM plus terms and conditions APPLAG 14 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:30.120 see website for details. 15 00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:32.359 Hey guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if you 16 00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:34.119 know this about me, but I'm a bit of a 17 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:36.159 fun fanatic one. I can I like to work, but 18 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:38.399 I like fun too. It's a thing. And now the 19 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:40.320 truth is out there, I can tell you about my 20 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:43.719 favorite place to have fun, Chumba Casino. They have hundreds 21 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:46.320 of social casino style games to choose from, with new 22 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:50.320 games released each week. You can play for free anytime, anywhere, 23 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:53.280 and each day brings a new chance to collect daily bonuses. 24 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:55.920 So join me and the fun. Sign up now at 25 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:59.759 chumbacasino dot com. No We're Necessary Daily REPOI where everybody 26 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:02.399 lost a reading play host. 27 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:16.359 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 28 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:19.480 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 29 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:26.840 written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 30 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.560 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:35.159 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 32 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:38.040 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 33 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:50.120 Good evening. This is your host Stan Zupaski for the 34 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:53.040 program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in True crime 35 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:56.760 History and the authors that have written about them. Choe 36 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.920 Oil Mountain lies nineteen miles east of Mount Everest on 37 00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:04.200 the border between Tibetan Nepal. To the elite mountaineering community, 38 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:06.760 it's known as the sixth highest mountain in the world. 39 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:11.439 To Tibetan's Cho Oil represents a gateway to freedom through 40 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:16.120 the secret glacial path, the Nangpala. On September thirty, two 41 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:19.800 thousand and six, gunfire echoed through the thin air near 42 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:23.400 advanced base camp on Cho Oyu, and climbers preparing the 43 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:27.000 summit watched in horror as Chinese border guards fired at 44 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:32.080 a group of Tibetans fleeing to India via Nepal. Murder 45 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:35.080 in the High Himalaya is the unforgettable account of the 46 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:38.840 brutal killing of Kelsang Namso, a seventeen year old Tibetan 47 00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:42.680 un fleeing with the group to Dharmasala to escape religious persecution. 48 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:47.240 Kelsang's death is a painful example of Tibet's oppression by China, 49 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.560 but this time a human rights atrocity was witnessed and 50 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:55.000 documented by dozens of Western climbers. Their moral dilemma was plain, 51 00:02:55.800 --> 00:03:00.319 would they tell the world what they had seen. The 52 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:02.960 center of the story as an American climber stuck with 53 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:05.840 a crisis of conscience who gambled with his career to 54 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:09.360 speak out, and a young Tibetan girl who sacrificed her 55 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:12.159 rights who ever returned to the bet by telling the 56 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:15.599 Western media about the murder of her best friend. Both 57 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:18.280 risked their futures to expose the abuses of China in 58 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:22.199 Tibet and paid a terrible price. The book this Evening 59 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:27.919 featured is Murder in the High Himalaya, Loyalty, Tragedy and 60 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:31.960 Escape from Tibet, with my special guest, journalist and author 61 00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:35.120 Jonathan Green, Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, 62 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.800 and welcome to the program. Jonathan Green, Hi, Dan. 63 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:40.080 Thank you very much for having me. 64 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:42.960 Well, thank you very much. And first off, I'm going 65 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:46.240 to say a very great read and an incredible book, 66 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:49.400 and I'm sure our audience will enjoy hearing about it 67 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:52.400 this evening. Now, first off, I wanted to ask you 68 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:55.560 why did you decide to write this book? What was 69 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:57.919 it about this story that compelled you to write this book? 70 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:06.000 Incredibly important story because China is in the ascendant, they're 71 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:14.400 number two economically now behind the United States, and within 72 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:22.199 China there's a very brutal suppression of ethnic minorities. And 73 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:28.040 this particular story is incredibly rare because the murder of 74 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:33.680 Kelsang Namso, the one of the characters in my book, 75 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:40.759 was documented in film by Western climbers, which is a rarity. 76 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:44.959 Like we know these human rights abuses occur all the 77 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:47.160 time in China, but we never get to hear about 78 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:51.680 them because of the suppression and because China is very 79 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:56.240 I'm effective at making sure that stories like this don't 80 00:04:56.279 --> 00:04:58.759 come out and you never hear about them. But in 81 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:05.319 this one instance, circumstances were absolutely bang on that the 82 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:10.759 word that the murder was to witness and films and 83 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:15.639 you can see the clip on YouTube. But it made 84 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:20.480 this very compelling and I was particularly shocked, like everybody 85 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:24.720 else was, when this unfolded as an international news story 86 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:28.399 in two thousand and six. But I particularly wanted to 87 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.879 know who the characters were. Who was this sort of 88 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.720 figure falling in the snow at nineteen thousand feet and 89 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:41.120 why were people shooting, and who witnessed this and who 90 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:45.000 were they? And you know, it started me on a 91 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:46.079 very long journey. 92 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.720 Now let's go back a little bit too, really for 93 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:54.240 those people that don't know, and there's probably most people 94 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:57.600 that know as much as that you've unfolded in your book, 95 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:02.079 and would you've given the given the reader through your 96 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:05.480 book is the history of Tibet in China. So if 97 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:09.560 you could give us the why China wanted to dominate 98 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:13.800 Tibet and what that meant in terms of the Tibetans 99 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:17.720 and the Dali Lama. So if you could briefly explain 100 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:20.439 the importance of the Dali Lama in this entire story 101 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:25.680 to Tibetans and China and explain that to give us 102 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:28.839 a real historical background to the story, which is vital. 103 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.279 Tibet is the highest country in the world. It's at 104 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:37.519 the very top of the globe, but you know parts 105 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:40.120 of it well, it's like the average heights of this 106 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:43.519 is twelve thousand feet, which is as high as the 107 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:51.079 tallest to mountains in Colorado. Before nineteen fifty it was 108 00:06:51.120 --> 00:07:01.399 an independent country which bordered China. Mao Zedong decided the Tibet, 109 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:06.199 which is a huge country, it's the size of Western Europe, 110 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:09.680 that it would be beneficial to China to have bath 111 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:13.879 as pass of China. So he invaded with his armies 112 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:19.560 and took the country by force. At that time, arm 113 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:26.519 Tibet was a theocracy, but most people there have allegiance 114 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:35.040 to the Dalai Lama and Tibetan to Buddhism, and the 115 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:40.199 Dalai Lama tried to deal with mouth for several years. 116 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:43.279 And then in nineteen fifty nine, nine years after the 117 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:47.040 Chinese army invaded, realized that his own life was at 118 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:51.560 great risk, so he made the very dangerous journey over 119 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:55.519 the mountains and went to live in India where he 120 00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:00.920 now lives in exile. And you know, rough three thousand 121 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:05.879 Tibetans a year make this dangerous journey over the mountains 122 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:13.639 to be with him today, Tibet said, you know, it's 123 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:19.040 under Chinese rule. Many Tibetans feel that they, you know, 124 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:25.240 that they're occupied by a foreign power. China insists that 125 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:29.759 Tibet is past of China and parts of their territory, 126 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:32.480 and therein lives the conflict. 127 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:38.720 Now two, you've talked about the Dali Lama, and but 128 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:44.159 to Tibetans and in Chinese, there's a complete difference on 129 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:47.279 the interpretation and how they speak of the Dali Lama. 130 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:52.799 So to Tibetans, what is really the Dali Lama to 131 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:58.679 them really in personal personified and and how do the 132 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:02.840 Chinese care to rise the same Dali Lama in their 133 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.879 propaganda and to other Chinese and to Tibetans went in there. 134 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:11.480 We'll talk a little bit later about this re education process. 135 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:17.559 Tibetan's believe that the Dalai Lama is a god in 136 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:22.879 human form, that he is here in his current incarnation 137 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:28.000 to help people achieve compassion, to make the world's best place, 138 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:34.080 and to bring peace. But he is outultimately arm a 139 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:40.919 deity om a god. The Chinese governments uh see the 140 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:45.480 Dialai Lama as a very grave threats to their claims 141 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:50.440 over Tibet. Because Tibetan's allegiances to the Dalai Lama and 142 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:55.679 he now lives in exile. The Chinese governments say that 143 00:09:55.799 --> 00:10:01.919 they call him a splicist arm and because a jackal 144 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:06.840 and a wolf in monks robes, and they say that 145 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:10.120 all he wants to do is to split the country 146 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:13.840 up and to split China because the Dalai Lama doesn't 147 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:22.120 believe that Tibet you know, that Tibet should have some 148 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:28.200 sensible autonomy, It should be its own thing. So you know, 149 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:33.720 there's two completely different points of view. And Tibetans are 150 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:39.639 very spiritual and religious, and the Chinese government tries to 151 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:45.080 ensure that most Chinese people are atheists. They don't. They 152 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:47.240 try to make sure that people don't believe in any 153 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:51.200 type of religion because they see that as a threat 154 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:54.559 to their hold on power. You know, they don't want 155 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:59.399 people to have any other allegiance but to the Chinese 156 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:00.879 Communist Party. 157 00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:05.039 Now, the other thing that the Chinese you say that 158 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:10.759 the reject religion. And but there is about fifteen percent 159 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:17.399 of Tibetan's livers monks and nuns and practice Buddhism and 160 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:21.919 how is their life in Tibet trying to be among 161 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:25.000 practicing monks and nuns. What is their life like in 162 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:28.240 Tibet under those circumstances. 163 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:34.080 It's very difficult. Indeed, it's very tightly regulated because the 164 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:38.519 government in New York Doris's believe any source of religion 165 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:41.720 is a threat. I mean in you know, modern day China, 166 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:47.399 Chris Tianity is a threat. So there are underground churches 167 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:54.080 in Tibet. They see Buddhism as a threat. So anyone 168 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:56.799 who wants to become a monk or nanor to follow 169 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:04.679 any sources of spiritual path, it's very tightly regulated, and 170 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:11.559 it's seen as a political act. They Doris's see us 171 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:15.639 as a very grave threat to their hold on power there. 172 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:22.720 So monks and nuns are singled out for particular punishment. 173 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:25.159 And for many years we've hoped, you know, heard of 174 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:30.320 the gravest human rights abuses. People locked up and jailed 175 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:35.000 and tortured and beaten and interrogated. In some cases, you know, 176 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:44.200 they've been killed. It's it's endless, really, it's they see 177 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:46.240 any form of religion as a threat. 178 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.240 Now you begin your book very dramatically with the introduction 179 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:58.200 of one of the main characters and the person that 180 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.320 she's in a family. It's also the main characters in 181 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:04.000 your story. But this is an eight year old named Dolma, 182 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:07.120 and her mother Naima, and her brother Rinsen, and then 183 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:10.240 there's a younger brother as well. Introduce our audience to 184 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.360 who these people really were. Tell us first about Naima, 185 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:18.679 she's an independent woman. And tell us when this story 186 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:21.320 takes place. When you begin with the eight year old 187 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:26.039 named Dolma, and tell us about their life, and you 188 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:30.720 can go as far as when the PSB guards and 189 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:33.519 you can explain who those people are and why that 190 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:38.080 story is a strong indication of things to come, and 191 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:41.639 also why you included that in the very dramatic beginning 192 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:44.879 of your book, about the officers coming in and looking 193 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:49.080 for something from this family here. So please explain that 194 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:49.759 for us, please. 195 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:55.480 They came from a rural path to best It's a 196 00:13:55.519 --> 00:14:00.440 place called Dreary County, which is way up in the mountain. 197 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:08.279 It's very high altitude, it's a very tough environment, very inhosvisible. 198 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:11.360 You know, it's minus thirty in the winters. They have 199 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:16.159 a very short kind of summer, and you know, life 200 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:20.240 is extremely tough, but Tibetans have lived like this for, 201 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:26.120 you know, thousands of years. Dolma, who's the main character 202 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.919 in my book, she'd lived with her mother and sister 203 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:34.159 and her brother there. And I start my book with 204 00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:37.039 how you know as a young girl, she was eight 205 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:44.320 years years old, that the police came to sort of visit. 206 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:48.159 And if you're a Tibetan, you get very used to 207 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:51.600 the police turning up at any time, day or night, 208 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:55.159 and they're always looking for some type of infraction of 209 00:14:55.200 --> 00:15:00.440 the rules. And in modern day Tibet, you can go 210 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:05.440 to prison for five years just for having a photograph 211 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:13.480 of the Dalai Lama. It's concreted contrabrand and people aren't 212 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:17.759 allowed to have these photographs, and you know, you can 213 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:22.279 go to prison for it. So my book opens with 214 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:25.600 the story with Dolma, who's eight years old, with the 215 00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:30.000 police knocking on the door and turning the house upside 216 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:35.759 down looking for pictures of the Dalai Lama. And uh, 217 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:42.000 you know, all Tibetans have an unswerving allegiance to the 218 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:44.799 Dalai Lama, so most people have pictures of him, but 219 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:47.759 they hide them. So the police come all the time 220 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:52.039 to try to find them. 221 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:55.919 Now, that's pervading attitude. Is from from I get from 222 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:59.120 your book is that the people defied the Chinese authorities 223 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:02.240 and keep whatever treasured pictures that they have of the 224 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:06.360 Dali Lama in defiance of that. So they so so 225 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.480 that they're very resistant to the Chinese rule and and 226 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:13.440 there's not much cooperation with them. Now. You also introduced 227 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:20.200 Dolma's best friend next door, Dolkar Tomsol. Maybe you can 228 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:25.320 tell us that what Dorma's life was like, but uh, 229 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:29.159 maybe a little bit about her her friend Dolkar Tomso. 230 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:34.679 Yeah, they were basically her best friends. They that they were. 231 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:41.120 The Doma was, you know, was a year younger, Dolka 232 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:45.360 Tomsy was a year older, and they were very different. 233 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:52.600 Doma was you know, understated and reasoned and balanced, and Dolka, 234 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:58.120 who lived next door, was very impetuous and very passionate, 235 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:02.799 and you know, you saw that the path of her 236 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:08.960 life was to follow to Buddhism. She she you know, 237 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:12.880 felt a particular calling to the religious life. 238 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:15.119 Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a flight 239 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:17.359 the other day playing one of my favorite social spin 240 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:19.960 slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at 241 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:21.799 the person sitting next to me, and you know what 242 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.599 they were doing. They were also playing Chumpa Casino. Coincidence, 243 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.119 I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumpa 244 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.519 Casino's home to hundreds of casino style games you can 245 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:33.400 play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. 246 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:35.799 So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to 247 00:17:35.799 --> 00:17:39.079 claim you're free. Welcome bonus. That's Chumbu Casino dot com 248 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:42.039 and live the chumber line. No necessary DVOD wherever if 249 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:43.920 I lost in terms of conditions eating Plus, Hey guys, it 250 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:45.880 is Ryan. I'm not sure if you know this about me, 251 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:48.119 but I'm a bit of a fun fanatic when I can. 252 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:50.039 I like to work, but I like fun too. It's 253 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:52.079 a thing. And now the truth is out there, I 254 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:54.400 can tell you about my favorite place to have fun, 255 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:57.960 Chumbuck Casino. They have hundreds of social casino style games 256 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.759 to choose from, with new games released each week. You 257 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:04.200 can play for free anytime, anywhere, and each day brings 258 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:07.079 a new chance to collect daily bonuses. So join me 259 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.759 in the bund Sign up now Chumba Casino dot com. 260 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:13.720 Don't we're just necessary d I lost in terms conditions eighteen. 261 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:17.759 Plus, and I think Dolma was not quite so drawn 262 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:25.880 to that, but she supported her friend, and therein uh 263 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:31.079 you know, begins their allegiance to the Dalai Lama, which 264 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:34.440 put them on a direct collision course with the your 265 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:39.440 thorities in China and led to the events that unfold 266 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:40.000 in my book. 267 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:45.960 Now, how long does it take you introduce Dolma at 268 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:48.680 eight years old? How long does it take for her 269 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:51.720 to grow up in a society that you need to 270 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:54.559 mature very very quickly and take on a lot of 271 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:59.119 responsibilities just to survive. You talk about their their humble 272 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:04.319 existence where burning their fuel is yack dung, and then 273 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:07.200 you even talk about how sometimes the officers would come 274 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.519 by and even take a certain portion of that. So 275 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:12.359 it was a really hard scrabble life. So tell us 276 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:16.079 what her life was like growing up and what did 277 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:20.519 she lean towards. We obviously know that a Dolkar was 278 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:24.119 leaning towards being a nun and and and dedicating her 279 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:28.680 life to Buddhism. Tell us what Dolmar's life was and 280 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:31.359 what her focus was and her interest. 281 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:34.799 Yeah, I mean, you know, as I said, I mean, 282 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.799 it's a particularly tough environment. I mean, because it's such 283 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:45.160 high altitude, there isn't really very much wood, so you know, 284 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.480 in order to stay warm you have to have a fuel, 285 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:52.960 so they burn yak dung and yaksa like these big 286 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:59.000 cows that sort of high altitude castle. And it's really 287 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:06.079 that's how Tibetans survive from milk, you know, hide meat. 288 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:11.119 So Dolmra had to grow up very fast. You know. 289 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:16.200 She took you know, household chores and a lots of responsibility, 290 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:20.400 and sometimes she and Dolker would go up to very 291 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:23.880 you know, go down to lure altitudes to get wood 292 00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:29.759 or up sort of neighboring kind of mountains, and you 293 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:32.759 know life was I mean to life was tough. But 294 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:36.839 then Tibetans are very used to living in that way. 295 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:39.240 You know, they don't know anything any kind of difference. 296 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.680 I mean, if you went there as your I you know, 297 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:46.359 very used to Western comforts, it would be incredibly tough. 298 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:48.640 You know. 299 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.440 So it's it's sort of humble in that way. But 300 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:57.720 you know, there's a very strong spirituality and in daily 301 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:03.599 life and family bonds very strong, and I think Doma 302 00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:06.920 grew up you know, she loved her mother. They had 303 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:12.519 a very close relationship, and I don't think she thought, 304 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:15.519 you know, she was this sort of average teenager. Really, 305 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.799 I mean she I didn't produced her the age of eight, 306 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:24.039 but you see her life flower and you know, but 307 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.759 then things started to change, you know, when she was 308 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:28.440 sixteen or seventeen. 309 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:36.200 Right now, you also include which I thought was very interesting. 310 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.400 Maybe you can explain why you included this. You talked about, 311 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:42.440 you know, the hard scrabble existence, but that there was 312 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.839 a boom of a boom of sorts by the discovery 313 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:50.359 by athletes that were interested in a fungus that grew 314 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:52.599 at this high altitude. So maybe you can tell us 315 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:57.160 how that story intersects with the complete story itself or 316 00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.000 why you included that far. 317 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.960 Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a particularly self place. 318 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:04.720 You know, people have to make do with what they have, 319 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:09.880 and in recent years, corter SEPs it's called, which is 320 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:17.000 oddly enough, it's caterpillar fungus, which is seen. It's a 321 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:23.759 big component of Chinese medicine and Eastern medicine, and it's 322 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:27.119 meant to have all these qualities. You know, it's meant 323 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.279 to I mean, it's basically meant to do everything that 324 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:34.240 brings you back to life after you die, it can. 325 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:38.000 It can heal you if you're sick, it can. It's 326 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:44.519 an afro physiac and and it's really work worth a 327 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:50.519 lot of money. They call it soft gold. And where 328 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:56.799 Dolma lived was a particularly rich area in this and 329 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:02.759 that was how the family really managed to survived. You know, 330 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:07.599 they collected this in the grasslands and then sold it, 331 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:11.000 and that's how they were able to buy things like 332 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:17.759 a motor cycle and out bet the house and said, 333 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:20.759 you know, to be able to go into Lasa, which 334 00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:26.359 is the capital of Tibet on pilgrimage and shopping trips 335 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:27.720 and things like that. 336 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:34.359 Now, and Dolma and Dorcard spoke about door Card being 337 00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:38.160 a nun and dedicated her life to Buddhism. There's a 338 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:42.680 catch to this as well, because isn't there a talk of, 339 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:46.279 just like the Dala Lama with fleeing to India, that 340 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:50.000 if you wanted to really practice this religion maybe I'm 341 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.519 getting this wrong, that you would inevitably would want to escape. 342 00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:57.839 And the center of this story is also this old 343 00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:03.359 cho oil and it's a secret path and it's known 344 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:07.799 for people escaping. So was there talk between the two 345 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:11.519 girls above this and what would mean and tell us 346 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.759 about that. I think that was fascinating part of it. 347 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:18.039 Yeah, I mean it's I mean, people hate to draw 348 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:23.039 this analogy, but I'm going to draw it anyway. It's 349 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:26.400 you know, if you're a Christian and you were offered 350 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:31.400 the choice to meet Jesus Christ, then I'm sure many 351 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:34.160 people would take a very grave risk to be able 352 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:39.920 to do that. Sure as a Buddhist meeting the Dalai 353 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:44.559 Lama is exactly the same thing. It's it's you know, 354 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:49.400 it's really sort of like a meeting with God. Because 355 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:54.680 the Dalai Lama left the country and he lives in India, 356 00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:59.119 and the Chinese don't want anybody going to visit him 357 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.000 because they see him as a political threat. I mean, 358 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:05.640 probably much in the same way that the Roman Empire 359 00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:11.559 saw Jesus Christ as a threat. They so the really 360 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:15.279 the the the only way to see him is to 361 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:21.119 do so illegally and to undertake an incredibly dangerous journey 362 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:26.880 over the Himalaya. You know, the high mountains were very 363 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:31.960 little food because you can't announce the or doritors that 364 00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:37.480 you're going, and so that really, you know, that was 365 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:42.759 really like the way that so Dolka was sort of going. 366 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:47.000 She felt that, you know, because the Buddhism in Tibet 367 00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:51.640 was so tightly regulated that things were so tough. It 368 00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:57.599 was they often the two girls discussed, I'm escaping and 369 00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:01.640 running over the mountains and getting to see the Dalai Lama. 370 00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:09.880 Okay, now you talk about a climber. Now you fast 371 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:14.079 forward to the other part of the story, you know, 372 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:17.319 almost diametrically opposed, and the other side of the world 373 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:21.880 and some famous mountain climbers, and the whole business of 374 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:26.480 mountain climbing on the sixth highest mountain in the world 375 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:31.359 a real challenge to people. Explain that whole industry to us, 376 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.480 and then you can introduce a couple of the characters 377 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:38.359 like mister Benette Benitez and a couple of other people 378 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:42.119 that end up being central characters in this story as well. 379 00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:44.680 Explain that whole industry to our audience. 380 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:51.279 Yeah, it's the whole mountaineering industry has has expanded to 381 00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:55.240 such huge levels in the past thirty or forty years. 382 00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:57.880 I mean, it used to be such a rarity to 383 00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:01.559 climb mounts have rest. Now there's you know, there's hundreds 384 00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:06.599 of people every year who go and you know, it 385 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:10.200 really is, and it's a very expensive sport. I mean, 386 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:13.119 if you want to go and climb Mount Everest, it's 387 00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:17.519 going to cost you at least seventy thousands of dollars 388 00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:19.440 and you're going to have to take three or four 389 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:25.279 months off work. So that whole industry even, you know, 390 00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:28.480 it's grown and expanded and got huge, and there's a 391 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:34.839 lot of companies operating and the Himalaya now and they 392 00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:37.640 offer these trips to people. You know, you can be 393 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.359 anyone just as long as you've got the money and 394 00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:43.799 you know you have some experience, and I mean or 395 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:47.960 very often they don't answer any experience at all, and 396 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.400 they will take you up to the top of these mountains. 397 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:58.000 So these are some of the most remote parts of 398 00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:03.279 the world. And when that happens, you start to interact 399 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:06.240 with people from places life to bed. 400 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:15.680 Now main character is is Benitez. And I thought was 401 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:20.200