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Speaker 1: It's more than just a podcast. It's a podcast network,

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nineteen different podcasts that you can step into and explore.

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Arro dot net A r r oe dot net. If

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you're into why a authors and why you're not still

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baffles me because these are some of the greatest authors

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on the planet today for all ages. Aro dot net,

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A r r oe dot net. Enjoy your exploration. Hi,

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doctor Laura, listen to that energy, doctor Laura, My god,

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that you're surrounded by positive energy today.

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure, I'll tell you.

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Speaker 1: You are onto something here that really inspires me as

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well as influences me. And I mean that as somebody

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a dear future reader moment in the way that I'm

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going to be able to look back at this book

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and say I can still pull from it because it

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really opens up our hearts to a greater future if

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we so choose to walk.

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Speaker 2: That path beautifully said thank you.

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Speaker 1: Because haven't we have when we all dealt with that,

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I wish I would have quit sooner.

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure, everyone has an eighty seven percent of

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people say they've reported to a toxic boss.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of a dangerous place, isn't it? With a

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toxic boss? Because these days you have to define who

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that is because everything we're reading is, oh, bosses are

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nicer today since the COVID lockdown, everything is going great,

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and you want to go what what place of business

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are you walking into that you can make a comment

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like that because we're all back to wishing we would

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have quit.

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Speaker 2: Sooner, exactly. And I wouldn't have written this book if

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things were getting better. They've actually gone downhill when it

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comes to corporate cultures since the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: So why why do you think that is? Do you

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think it's because everybody you know, we understand the business

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side of business is to make the money. But at

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the same time, if your team and your bench, I

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always compare things to the football or an NBA team.

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If your bench isn't very deep, how do you expect

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to win? And no wonder people want to quit sooner

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because I'm surrounded by one thing every day, no call,

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no show. That means they don't even have the guts

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to call in to say I ain't coming in.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's dear, Yeah it is. It's tricky for sure.

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And I'd say that this is on the rise because

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when we have an uncertain economy and we have fear

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about the economy. People their competitive behaviors come on, and

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it's I when you lose and throwing each other under

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the bus and scarce resources and fear, Whereas if everyone's

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rowing in the same direction, we will get through any

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economic storm.

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Speaker 1: Is there a psychological constraint that people have got to

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move through? And the reason why I bring that up

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is because something is stopping employees from jumping up to

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the next level. Because if you sit down with Mike Row,

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Mike will sit there and tell you that the infrastructure

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of this nation is failing because the next level leader

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doesn't want to show up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, people are scared of leadership roles because of the

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stress and the overload and all of that. But I

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say people, leadership is a great gift and a great responsibility.

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Not everyone's cut out for it, though, And we've got

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to stop promoting toxic bosses because they're very good at

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selling themselves, but they're hurting human being.

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Speaker 1: I'm that guy that ends up in the HR a

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lot because I'll look at a toxic boss and I'll go,

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I know you're not talking to me. I First of all,

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it's not because I'm much older than you, but I

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know that you are not talking to me like that.

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I never had this before, so I don't mind taking

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them on.

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Speaker 2: Good, that's awesome. We need more people like you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But to go into an HR meeting and go, huh,

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here we are again, what do you want me to sign?

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Can you just copy my signature? Come on now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? And AhR is caught in the middle of it all. Off.

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Often we say HR is not doing their job, but

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they're actually caught in the middle of a political situation

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at work, especially if the higher up is a toxic

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boss and it's reported to HR through an employee. HR

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is caught in the middle because that is their higher up.

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Speaker 1: Well are they our friends? And the reason why is

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because I was working for a radio station where I

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was in the HR room and the big boss walks in.

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HR person sits on the sofa, puts their legs up

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on the sofa and then they start talking to me,

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and I'm going, where did I go wrong in this

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industry where I can't put my feed up?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Man? Yeah, that's an interesting story.

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Speaker 1: But we're all facing it though, because I mean, that's

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the thing about it is, is that whether you have

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a great boss or a toxic boss. Even with a

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great boss, I sit there and wonder if they're not

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shooting off a candy coated plastic bathroom mirror smile. Because

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I want to trust my boss. I want to invest

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in the captain of a ship that's going down. But

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but there are those little things that they've got to

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do because corporate said so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you're talking about a whole bunch of

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issues with corporate hierarchy and dysfunction in corporations. And where

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my book really focuses is what's the impact on the

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human being who falls prey to a toxic boss. How

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do you identify what's happening to you that you're not alone,

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how do you navigate it, and how do you actually

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escape and recover? Because a truly toxic boss is not sustainable. See.

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Speaker 1: And the reason why I keep bringing up everything else

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is because I want that listener to understand that you

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and I are speaking the same street that they're on.

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They just won't talk about it. And if we don't

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talk about what they're feeling inside their heart, how do

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we expect them to pick up this book and to

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learn from it. Because here's the thing, Like I said

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in the beginning. I wish I'd quit sooner? What about

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relationships with people? What about different things? I mean, that's

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what I love about this book is that you are

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not afraid to go to that one area. What if

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I would have quit sooner?

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Speaker 2: Exactly? And really helping people to know that there is

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a way out and there are such challenges in society

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these days. It's a really really tricky world. However, I

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do see examples of great leadership out there in organizations.

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They're just the minority, right. We need to build more

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strong leaders and we need to stop promoting ones that

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shouldn't be managing people.

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Speaker 1: Well, does that begin with I'll give you a good

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example from my team. I don't want to make this

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about me, but my team. I've got a senior in

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high school that I called him a protege. He was

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pissed off about it because he says, now you've put

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too much pressure on me. And I said, I see

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leadership in you, dude. Do you not think it belongs

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with the younger people. Get them to understand that there

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are leadership qualities in them, and get them focused in

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on being a future.

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Speaker 2: Leader, exactly understanding what you're meant to do in the

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world and where your talents and strengths are. And leading

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people's not easy. Like I say, it's a great gift,

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but a great responsibility. People are complex, nuanced, and emotional.

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And I've spent my twenty five years in organizational psychology

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working across organizations and humans and it's not an easy territory.

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But it can be learned. People can learn how to lead.

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But some people should never be leading people, and those

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are the toxic one.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with doctor Laura coming

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up next, the name of a book. I wish I'd

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quit sooner. We've all been there. Let's get back to

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doctor Laura. Don't we as those on the receiving end

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of a toxic boss go through withdrawals, because I mean

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it's almost like, wow, this person would have said this.

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Oh my god, I wouldn't have done that at the

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other job because this person would have done that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we're always comparing and contrasting, right, We're always

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We're always comparing. But one thing's for sure. If you're

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working for a toxic boss, it's harming your physical health,

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your mental health, and your ability to get your job done.

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Speaker 1: So do you suggests that people go into us. I

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do a thing called defragging, which is asking yourself the

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questions and questioning the answers and what And the reason

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for that is is for me to understand who is

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my boss? Why are they being a butt heead today?

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What is going on with this relationship? So do we

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need to start asking more questions about ourselves so that

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we can understand those around us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and just having that self insight. Right, you may

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be overly sensitive that day, you may have had a

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bad sleep, right, you know. But I mean, our boss

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is just a human being who's going through the emotions

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and challenges of this life. And they'll have good days

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and bad days. And there's a lot of difficult bosses

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out there. And I always say a difficult boss is

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not a toxic boss. A difficult boss is frustrating and

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they're a struggle to work with. But you can learn

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to manage them. You can learn to cope with them,

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manage them. They can improve your relationship, can improve. It's sustainable.

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A toxic boss is not sustainable.

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Speaker 1: God, you're giving me some flashbacks of toxic boxes. But

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the problem is about a toxic boss is you want

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to write about them. You want to talk about them

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on social media. And then there's that other side of

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you that saying, do not do not bring their name

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up because you're furthering their story and not your recovery story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, there's no good in spreading the word about

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them in a way that can put yourself at risk, right,

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and I talk about how you can rebuild trust in

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your next workplace and how you can look for another job.

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And it's never about bashing the toxic boss. It's about

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putting your dust self forward.

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Speaker 1: Is that the reason why there's so many job hoppers

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right now? It's because, I mean, somebody gets a job,

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they come in one day, they ain't coming back, and

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it's like, okay, what happened here?

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Speaker 2: To where?

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Speaker 1: Because I thought radio had turned over go into the

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world of retail. Holy cow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean people, especially the youngest generation in the

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world work first rate. Now Generation ZE, who are in

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their twenties, they're not putting up with this sort of

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abuse for very long, compared to people you know, my age,

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who are fifty and uh, we put up. We tend

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to put up with it more. But when you're a

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younger person here, Yeah, no, I grew up with the

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anti bullying messages coming at me. I grew up learning

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more about mental health and I'm not going to sacrifice

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my mental health for this a whole.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but to help out a toxic boss. It kind

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of reminds me of of something that hit me while driving.

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If they're being a an a hole like you said,

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do you well, why don't you ask them about their lives?

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Why don't you ask them about their kid or their dog?

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Find out more? Maybe they're sitting there saying, nobody gives

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a crap about me, Why don't you ask about me?

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And I'll be less toxic?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yes and no. So if you have

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a toxic boss who is truly toxic and a narcissist

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is one of the personas of the toxic boss. I

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have eight personas of the toxic boss, by the way,

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in I wish i'd quit sooner. But if they are

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truly that way, Yeah, you want to suck up to them,

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You want to compliment them, you want to ask about them.

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You want to compliment so they feel good. You got

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to stroke their ego. But that's different than say a

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difficult boss, where yeah, you do get to know them,

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you do ask about their day, et cetera. And that'll

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help build the relationship with a toxic boss. It's just

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about survival mechanisms and stroking the ego is one way

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to survive working for a narcissistic boss.

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Speaker 1: There's a big word that's inside the title of the book,

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and really, I want this book to be an inspiration

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and not something that's going to tear a reader apart.

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And that word is I wish I'd quit sooner. I

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don't want anybody to feel like a quitter with this book,

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because you're being a leader by saying you don't have

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to quit. It's a continuation of you. You didn't quit,

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they quit you.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. That's why I have a bird fleeing a cage.

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It's about flying and soaring in your career and getting

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back in the driver's seat of your career. And I

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have people set a good ridden date where they'll no

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longer be there, but they have to put the things

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into place to get to that point. And it's not

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about failing. Quitting is not about failing. It's about setting

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yourself free and taking charge of your career. Now.

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Speaker 1: Because I'm a daily writer and I've written about these

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toxic bosses of radio. Should I destroy my daily writing?

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Speaker 2: So keep talking about it, keep talking. And they're across industries. Yeah,

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of course they're in media, but they're across every single industry.

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Speaker 1: Well, I got to tell you something, doctor Laura. Is

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that and this is the God's honest truth, is that

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I have a stack of these books that I'm going

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to share with people that I know that are leaders,

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and I want them to have these books. And because

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I believe so much in your energy that it's almost like,

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why did it take me six decades get to this book?

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Speaker 2: Well, I so appreciate that. You've definitely warmed my heart.

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I'm in Toronto right now and it's a snow day here.

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Everything clothes, cloth, everything. I have a book launch plan

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here and a lot of media today in the studios

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and wish me luck. You know, the one snow day

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that everything closes is the day of my launch here. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Well, you've got to come back to this show anytime

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in the future. If you're starting up a podcast, whatever

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you're doing, the only way to get the word out

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is to use what we have as tools today.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have a podcast where work meets Life and

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where work meets life is in its sixth year, and

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you'll hear from me on the podcast talking about timely

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issues around how we can help humans thrive and organizations thrive.

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So it's the intersection of where work meets life. So yeah,

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I'm excited for that, and I interview global guests experts

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in these areas too. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Well, please come back to this show anytime. That door

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is always going to be open for you. Doctor Wonderful.

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Speaker 2: Really appreciate you and your time and your energy.

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Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today?

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, you too. Take care