Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more
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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four fifty four.
Speaker 2: Your dream doesn't have an expiration date, Take a deep
Speaker 2: breath and try again.
Speaker 3: Kat You Whitten broadcasting from a dark, windowless.
Speaker 1: Room in Hollywood when we really should be working on
Speaker 1: that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you
Speaker 1: the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how
Speaker 1: to make your screenplay bulletproof.
Speaker 3: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
Speaker 4: I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.
Speaker 2: Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.
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Speaker 2: Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
Speaker 5: My next guest is a graduate of full Sell University's
Speaker 5: Film and Entertainment Business programs. He's the founder of Crash Films, Inc.
Speaker 5: He's an independent film producer. He's a screenwriter. This guy
Speaker 5: has done so many crazy awesome things, and we're going
Speaker 5: to get into all that. We're going to talk a
Speaker 5: lot about screenwriting and development, and also we talk a
Speaker 5: little bit about networking too, because he didn't just go
Speaker 5: out to La had a plan without knowing anybody. He
Speaker 5: actually had a plan in place, and he's doing such
Speaker 5: some really awesome things. And why don't we just go
Speaker 5: right into it with guests Michael ky Snyder, Mike, you
Speaker 5: were the You were the guest on the first ever episode.
Speaker 5: The episode is now considered a part of the lost episodes,
Speaker 5: the first three are considered the lost episodes.
Speaker 4: You were number one.
Speaker 5: You were my first guest, and uh, it's so good
Speaker 5: three years later to have you actually back one. So
Speaker 5: Mike again, I want to say thank you very much
Speaker 5: for joining us. And it's kind of funny how we've
Speaker 5: come full circle now, all the way back from three
Speaker 5: years ago.
Speaker 4: Now. I'm so happy to be back on the show,
Speaker 4: you know, it is it is. It's kind of funny
Speaker 4: that we that we have come full circle. You're totally right,
Speaker 4: and just thinking about some of the progressions that we've
Speaker 4: both made in our careers and how things have changed,
Speaker 4: it's just really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 5: And it's funny too because when I when we lasted
Speaker 5: the interview again, it was it was remotely like we're
Speaker 5: doing right now, but I was in a actual studio
Speaker 5: doing it and I had nothing but problems there. And
Speaker 5: now I'm doing it from my office and I and
Speaker 5: you know, it's just ten thousand times better because I
Speaker 5: remember when we had the episode and I listened to
Speaker 5: it and I was like, what the hell happen here?
Speaker 5: And it was that freaking recorder was not would never
Speaker 5: work right. So I for the first two episodes, did
Speaker 5: I use that recorder and this really awesome radio station
Speaker 5: was sound proof? And then all of a sudden, now
Speaker 5: it's like you know, I, I mean it just even technology,
Speaker 5: how it's improved in three freaking years is unbelievable.
Speaker 4: Crazy, Yeah, it is unbelievable.
Speaker 5: So, you know, Mike, since that episode's a little lost,
Speaker 5: actually it is lost. Sorry, this is the episode is lost.
Speaker 5: You know, I want to dig a little into your
Speaker 5: background for those of you, for those listeners who aren't
Speaker 5: really aware of, you know, all the things that you've done.
Speaker 5: So you know, you were actually a graduate of full
Speaker 5: Sale University. You graduated in what twenty ten?
Speaker 4: Oh, man, I graduated Full Tails Film program in two thousand,
Speaker 4: thousand eleven, and then I graduated their master's program a
Speaker 4: couple of years after that. So I moved out to
Speaker 4: LA in about two thousand and fourteen, twenty fifteen.
Speaker 5: Oh okay. So then, so see I get I just found
Speaker 5: out I even know you graduated from the master's program.
Speaker 5: So see I'm finding out to Yeah, so so you
Speaker 5: moved out to LA. Now we actually met through through
Speaker 5: trauma through Lloyd Kaufman, and you know, while and that
Speaker 5: was while you were actually at full sale. So when
Speaker 5: you were at full sale, do you think you know
Speaker 5: that you had a lot more opportunities that you wouldn't
Speaker 5: have had anywhere else, So sort of like to work
Speaker 5: on a lot of these different movies.
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't really think that, you know,
Speaker 4: film school in general matters as much as a lot
Speaker 4: of people want to say it does. I think, you know,
Speaker 4: given what I know now, if I could go back,
Speaker 4: I probably would have tried to work a little bit
Speaker 4: harder in high school and tried to get into like
Speaker 4: USC or UCLA, just because I feel like, you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's really all about your network, and if you
Speaker 4: can get in out here a little earlier, it just
Speaker 4: makes it so much easier to meet executives or meat
Speaker 4: agents or meat managers or producers because a lot of
Speaker 4: them are going to be in the same class as you. Rather,
Speaker 4: if you're you know, in Florida and you go into
Speaker 4: a school that anybody you know, it's pretty much paying
Speaker 4: to go to because it's private, it's it's just not
Speaker 4: the same pool of resources. That's not to say that
Speaker 4: they didn't help me get jobs out here and introduced
Speaker 4: into a lot of people. But I would say that
Speaker 4: a lot of what I would consider to be my
Speaker 4: own success is just based on me reaching out to
Speaker 4: people myself. Yea.
Speaker 5: You know there's an old saying your net worth is
Speaker 5: your so your network is your net.
Speaker 4: Worth, and that's one hundred per century.
Speaker 5: It really is, my honest to God, Even if you
Speaker 5: do something as obvious as like crowdfunding obviously, and you
Speaker 5: go out and you're like, well, hey, I need people
Speaker 5: to to to invest in this project, or if you're
Speaker 5: doing something like even this podcast or even doing something
Speaker 5: like releasing a film, if you don't have a network
Speaker 5: built up, you really don't have any way to really
Speaker 5: distribute the thing unless you're literally trying to build it
Speaker 5: as you're doing it, which is Uh, it was just
Speaker 5: like shooting yourself in the foot.
Speaker 4: That's absolutely right.
Speaker 5: So so when when when you say you should you
Speaker 5: wish you had applied yourself in high school, uh, to
Speaker 5: go out to like USC and stuff like that. I mean, no, Mike,
Speaker 5: I trust me, I feel you. I did the same
Speaker 5: thing in high school, man, I honestly, and when senior
Speaker 5: year came around, I didn't give a shit about anything,
Speaker 5: That's right.
Speaker 4: I I literally man. Like.
Speaker 5: My teachers were like, Dave, if you know, you don't
Speaker 5: apply yourself anymore, and I'm like, I don't care. I
Speaker 5: just want to get the help out of here.
Speaker 4: Exactly. That's why I was. I was, I was, I
Speaker 4: would like that. Before my I was like, that might
Speaker 4: be eighth grade though, you know, yeah, I went to
Speaker 4: two different high schools and and uh, you know the
Speaker 4: funny part is when I was a junior in high school,
Speaker 4: I cook in English. I was in an English honors
Speaker 4: class because I finally had a teacher who kind of
Speaker 4: convinced me to apply myself with writing. And she actually
Speaker 4: did an informational interview assignment where you had to reach
Speaker 4: out to a professional in your fields or where you
Speaker 4: wanted to go into the career you want to go in.
Speaker 4: So I was like, well, shit, man, I want to
Speaker 4: be a you know, writer director. I mean, Spilberg's not
Speaker 4: going to return my calls. You know, I can't really
Speaker 4: reach out with Scorsese, So who can I reach out to?
Speaker 4: And that's actually how I met Boyd with trauma and
Speaker 4: started working like the conventions in Florida with him, which
Speaker 4: is just really funny. And I think that was a
Speaker 4: moment where my mind kind of opened up a little
Speaker 4: bit where it was like, Okay, maybe she just focus
Speaker 4: on this and focus on filmmaking and writing and your network.
Speaker 4: So when I went to high school, I mean obviously
Speaker 4: in Florida, when you go to high school, there's not
Speaker 4: like a there's not even like a film history class,
Speaker 4: well like a film theory, like collective. It's all just
Speaker 4: the brass tacks high school stuff. And I would there
Speaker 4: was no way for me to apply myself in the
Speaker 4: career that I really wanted to except for in this
Speaker 4: one creative writing class, you know. And I think there's
Speaker 4: something to say about the art programs in schools with that,
Speaker 4: because I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in right
Speaker 4: now if I hadn't, you know, higging that course and
Speaker 4: made that decision. I wish there was more of those
Speaker 4: types of opportunities for people young students.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it would show you that there's more out there
Speaker 5: than just sort of like you know, you know, options A,
Speaker 5: B and C. That's right, so, and you know that's
Speaker 5: something too that you know. Even when I was in
Speaker 5: high school, man, we would always watch these movies, all
Speaker 5: these freaking movies. We would go to like all the
Speaker 5: local video stores. You know, most people who listen to
Speaker 5: this podcast know what those were, like the Blockbusters, Hollywood videos,
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, man, and stuff like that. And then but
Speaker 5: but you know, we would always rent these movies. We'd
Speaker 5: go out and every Friday, Saturday night or whatever, we'd
Speaker 5: go out. We'd just be watching all sorts of different
Speaker 5: movies and all these crazy freaking stuff. And it didn't
Speaker 5: even dawn on me at that point, dude, that I
Speaker 5: could make a you know, I could do this for
Speaker 5: a living. I just figured that everyone who wrote and
Speaker 5: made movies was like, you know, granted these special privileges
Speaker 5: by like the President of United States or some crap, you.
Speaker 4: Know, right right exactly. It's like it's it's the unattainable goal.
Speaker 4: You know, it's out there, but you have no what,
Speaker 4: you have no idea how to you know, map your
Speaker 4: road success in that field. There's there weren't a lot
Speaker 4: of resources, you know, and it's crazy. It was literally
Speaker 4: like you go when you watch movies and you think,
Speaker 4: you know, I remember when I was ten years old,
Speaker 4: I was watching Close Encounters and I'm like, this is great,
Speaker 4: you know, And it was the first time my parents ever,
Speaker 4: were like, well, you know, someone wrote that movie, and
Speaker 4: it was like a light bulb off of my brand,
Speaker 4: Like somebody writes movies. You know, it's just the craziest thing.
Speaker 4: But now I think there's a lot there's a few
Speaker 4: more resources just years later, and not that many years,
Speaker 4: but there really weren't when I was in high school.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was sort of like, you know, you have
Speaker 5: to go to college, you have to do this stuff.
Speaker 5: And when I went to it, you know, and when
Speaker 5: I went to college, I didn't know. I didn't know
Speaker 5: anything exactly what I wanted to major in.
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Speaker 5: And you know, I bounced around from major to major,
Speaker 5: but I was always, you know, in my spare time,
Speaker 5: I was practiced in writing. And I actually the first
Speaker 5: book I ever got on screenwriting was a book called
Speaker 5: The Screenwriter's Bible by David Trodier. Yes, and I bought
Speaker 5: that and that just sort of like opened the floodgates.
Speaker 5: And now I was like, you know, getting different movies
Speaker 5: and trying to figure out, you know, how to actually
Speaker 5: how they wrote that stuff and how I do it.
Speaker 5: I'll still do it. But but then you start to realize,
Speaker 5: oh my god, there are people out there who actually
Speaker 5: make movies. And I actually and at that I guess
Speaker 5: maybe it was like two thousand and six or seven,
Speaker 5: I actually really got into it and I was like,
Speaker 5: you know, talking to independent filmmakers. I found them on
Speaker 5: on my Space. Remember my Space, Mike.
Speaker 4: Man, Yeah, unfortunately I do. I think minds like like
Speaker 4: I think, I went went to great length to delete mine.
Speaker 5: I mine was actually deleted for me.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: And I got to notice one day they were like,
Speaker 5: we're gonna just terminate all these unused MySpace accounts. Yours
Speaker 5: is wonderful. And I said, honestly, burn that guy that
Speaker 5: burned that thing to the ground.
Speaker 4: Yeah, please take it away. Don't let anyone see this.
Speaker 5: It's so true. It's a it's I. I have a
Speaker 5: friend of mine who who still has or he had one,
Speaker 5: and I was like, my god, man, I go to that.
Speaker 5: That that's like a something from your childhood. That's like
Speaker 5: an embarrassing moment. You're just like, please never bring that
Speaker 5: up again. But uh, but you know, I actually I
Speaker 5: actually met some from filmmakers through my Space, and uh,
Speaker 5: and and some of these guys were actually in like
Speaker 5: Jersey and New York, and uh, you know, I never
Speaker 5: really put two and two together that there there's there's
Speaker 5: a lot more there wasn't.
Speaker 4: There was a lot more in the.
Speaker 5: In the whole bigger area. I don't want to say
Speaker 5: PA because it really wasn't that many and PA at
Speaker 5: that time. But but like New York and Jersey, there
Speaker 5: was a few people. Most didn't respond back because most
Speaker 5: were looking for like producers that could fund and give
Speaker 5: them money. Some actually money right exactly, And most actually
Speaker 5: did though, you know, come back and say Okay, here's
Speaker 5: what you can do. And then I just you know,
Speaker 5: went from there. But but you know, what I'm trying
Speaker 5: to say with all this is it's Simil's what you
Speaker 5: did with Lloyd and you reached out to him and said,
Speaker 5: you know, I can you know, I should see how
Speaker 5: I could actually work with this guy, and you you
Speaker 5: made an opportunity for yourself.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I took a class assignment and I
Speaker 4: reached out on my shop in the email, I'm like, hey,
Speaker 4: I want to do an interview with you over the phone,
Speaker 4: you know, and just talk about your career and and
Speaker 4: how you've made something out of nothing and continue to
Speaker 4: do so. And he responded back with a cell phone
Speaker 4: number and that was that was it. And then it
Speaker 4: was just really up to me to keep him pinned
Speaker 4: down and stay on top of him as much as possible,
Speaker 4: you know, whenever he was in town or I went
Speaker 4: to New York and that saw, you know, on different things.
Speaker 4: It was it was just to keep to keep the
Speaker 4: relationship alive.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, now with technology we're able to actually,
Speaker 5: you know, keep in contact with people a lot better
Speaker 5: and so and and also it's a double ed short
Speaker 5: because then you're you're getting too much contact with with
Speaker 5: every rip get you once right, Uh. But you know,
Speaker 5: but you made an opportunity. You reached out, even it
Speaker 5: was for a class or and you made sure to
Speaker 5: make a contact and I think that's so important and
Speaker 5: and I think and also you did the professional way.
Speaker 5: I mean, I just had Whitty Davis in the podcast
Speaker 5: for the second time and we talked about networking the
Speaker 5: right way. And you know, the first time that you
Speaker 5: you contact somebody, you shouldn't be asking for something right
Speaker 5: now totally and uh and you know you you actually
Speaker 5: were offering something for Lloyd and he took you up
Speaker 5: on that and then again you know, and here we
Speaker 5: are all these years later because and because when you
Speaker 5: when you were on that Troma film, we met through that,
Speaker 5: because that's when I I met Lloyd Uh, and then
Speaker 5: we were start talking and then I think, uh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: that's how we meant. And then then uh, there's you know,
Speaker 5: I've met a few other people through Lloyd d And
Speaker 5: you know, Lloyd's always doing something on independent films.
Speaker 4: He's a connector, man. I mean, he's the great connector,
Speaker 4: you know. I mean he just if he's able to
Speaker 4: put you on the phone or in the room with
Speaker 4: somebody that you want to be on thunner in the
Speaker 4: room with, he'll he'll do whatever he can to be
Speaker 4: the one to do it, who does it, you know,
Speaker 4: and and then he'll take all credit for it, which
Speaker 4: he rightfully deserves. Yeah.
Speaker 5: And I remember reading his his independent film book and
Speaker 5: it was just absolutely hilarious and I was like, see,
Speaker 5: he's he's he's making independent film. You fun. It's not
Speaker 5: taken too seriously. And you know his and when he
Speaker 5: was on the podcast, he uh, he said he founded
Speaker 5: Trauma in Prison with Michael Hurts uh and he was
Speaker 5: Michael Hurts's bitch and they founded Troma in.
Speaker 4: Prison and I'm like wow.
Speaker 5: And afterwards, the after the interview, I said to it, Lloyd,
Speaker 5: do you have I think that someone's gonna listen to
Speaker 5: this for the first time, not hearing of humor trauma,
Speaker 5: and think, wow, that guy really started moving prisiness in prison.
Speaker 4: He probably like, I hope no, you know, not far
Speaker 4: from the truth.
Speaker 5: You know, yeah, yeah, seriously, Uh, you know, I I've
Speaker 5: you know, and Lloyd is great. He's a very good connector.
Speaker 5: He's always connected and you know, different people and uh,
Speaker 5: you know again because he connected us and and I've
Speaker 5: been on different film sets multiple times. And you so,
Speaker 5: you know, after you got off this, you know, just
Speaker 5: to continue your story, after you got off you know,
Speaker 5: the working on trauma, and you know, you sort of
Speaker 5: you went back to Full Sale. You know, at what
Speaker 5: point did you want to did you realize that you
Speaker 5: wanted to go back for your for a master's at
Speaker 5: Full Sale at.
Speaker 4: The beginning, just because it was kind of part of
Speaker 4: the deal with my parents and just the way that
Speaker 4: they structured their programs. It was like if you it
Speaker 4: was like they had a deal, like it was like
Speaker 4: a bogo, Like if you buy one degree, you know,
Speaker 4: we can give you this second degree at a certain
Speaker 4: cost that was thousands of dollars less than it would
Speaker 4: have been had you decided to do it later. Because
Speaker 4: every so many years they restructure their programs and they
Speaker 4: changed the cost. So it just happened to be that.
Speaker 4: When we sat down with a representative of Full Sale,
Speaker 4: they were just they were like, now, if you want
Speaker 4: to take the master's program in business, you know we can.
Speaker 4: We can.
Speaker 5: We can go.
Speaker 4: Ahead and lump it in with the film program and
Speaker 4: it'll end up costing you less money later on. And
Speaker 4: you know, it was like it was like no time.
Speaker 4: You know, it was so quick because it's such an
Speaker 4: accelerated program that my parents were like, you might as well.
Speaker 4: And I mean at that point it was kind of
Speaker 4: whatever they wanted to do. I was really doing it
Speaker 4: more for them. I think I kind of knew that
Speaker 4: I needed to move somewhere and just start working, but
Speaker 4: you know, to keep everything cool at home and to
Speaker 4: put a diplomb on the wall. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 4: we'll go ahead and do that.
Speaker 5: And you know, again, it's good that you had a plan,
Speaker 5: because honestly, like you can become like me and you
Speaker 5: know obviously have no plan and just kind of figure
Speaker 5: your way out. But but no, it's good to the
Speaker 5: unip man. There's not really a plan out there, you know.
Speaker 5: It's like you just have to figure it out. There's
Speaker 5: not really a right or wrong way to do this.
Speaker 4: I think you just have to you have to do it.
Speaker 4: You have to just set goals and hit those goals.
Speaker 4: And those goals can be anything, as long as you
Speaker 4: know that at the end of that list there's some
Speaker 4: sort of success and whatever that successes, and that being
Speaker 4: monetary success. It could just be moving to Los Angeles,
Speaker 4: from moving to New York or getting a show, a
Speaker 4: gig on a show or anything. You know, there's not
Speaker 4: really there's not really a way to teach this.
Speaker 5: And you mentioned, you know, moving to LA and that's
Speaker 5: actually what I want to ask next, is you know, yeah,
Speaker 5: so you got the Masters and then you moved out
Speaker 5: to LA. I think you said out twenty fourteen is
Speaker 5: when you moved down.
Speaker 4: It would Yeah. I mean, I'm horrible at date, so
Speaker 4: I'm probably butchering it. Well, let's just say that. And
Speaker 4: basically what happened to is after I was done with
Speaker 4: the film program, and I went to the masters. All
Speaker 4: of my film school friends that are moved out to
Speaker 4: Los Angeles. So by the time I was done, you know,
Speaker 4: I had couches to sleep on, which is really key
Speaker 4: when you're moving from you know, Podunk, Florida to one
Speaker 4: of the most expensive cities in the nation. Is it
Speaker 4: nice to be able to find somewhere to sleep while
Speaker 4: you're getting your footing or finding your footing right. And
Speaker 4: so I host up with the career Development program at
Speaker 4: full sale and they got me the internship out here
Speaker 4: and I called by my friends and he was like, man,
Speaker 4: you can come out here. You can sleep on my
Speaker 4: couch for as long as you want or need to.
Speaker 4: You know, I know that you're not getting paid anything
Speaker 4: with your internship. Just just get out here, like that's
Speaker 4: all we want. We just want you out here. So
Speaker 4: I flew out and moved in with him. And sorry,
Speaker 4: by internship, I mean it was interesting. I was running
Speaker 4: a ten thousand square foot warehouse in downtown Los Angeles
Speaker 4: for more Tyranny and Anthony Revevar and Sean Wing and
Speaker 4: a few other actors and Nathan Heeney, who's a great
Speaker 4: direct photography now, and they basically they pulled their resources.
Speaker 4: They rented this massive warehouse right and it's like really
Speaker 4: old warehouse in downtown, and they needed some young kids
Speaker 4: to run it. So there was one other guy who
Speaker 4: was managing it, and I interned there and after a
Speaker 4: couple of months they hired me on as his assistant,
Speaker 4: and then after a couple of months, I got his job.
Speaker 4: So I ended up doing that for a couple of
Speaker 4: years and opened a second location in Burbank with Stacey Chaer,
Speaker 4: who everyone knows is Tarantino was produced and partner or
Speaker 4: was and her husband Carrie Brown, who's a really good friend,
Speaker 4: and we did a lot of really cool stuff, man,
Speaker 4: and it was a lot of fun and I got
Speaker 4: to meet a lot of really great people my first
Speaker 4: couple of years out here, which is always nice.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And you mentioned having couches to sleep on.
Speaker 5: That was actually left one of my questions because having
Speaker 5: that networks as everyone already moved out there, you know,
Speaker 5: and having those couches to sleep on and places to
Speaker 5: crash and you know, key, yeah, exactly, it is key.
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Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 5: And again are your network? Is your net worth? And
Speaker 5: uh again you you're able to actually, you know, uh
Speaker 5: go out there and not just be like all right,
Speaker 5: so what next. I mean I've had friends Mike who's
Speaker 5: gone out to LA and sort of been like with
Speaker 5: with no plan and been like, Okay, what next.
Speaker 4: It's like, well, you're gonna you're gonna suffer if you
Speaker 4: do that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're gonna really really reality is gonna hit you
Speaker 5: very fast totally. So you now you mentioned you got
Speaker 5: the you know, the warehouse job. Now at this point,
Speaker 5: were you always writing scripts and did you maybe have
Speaker 5: a few scripts to show to two different like maybe
Speaker 5: producers' agencies.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I I started writing screenplays when I
Speaker 4: was probably eleven years old, pen and paper. Then I
Speaker 4: figured out how to adjust the macros and word. Then
Speaker 4: I figured out, you know, you could get heltics and
Speaker 4: all these freere Then I found out that there were
Speaker 4: all these forums and independent script hosting sites online. So
Speaker 4: I was always putting material out there. I mean, I
Speaker 4: was just pushing short films and short stories and really
Speaker 4: shitty features out there and whatever I could just to
Speaker 4: get reads and get comments, because that's you know, structure
Speaker 4: is key from that point of view. So by the
Speaker 4: time I'd moved to Los Angeles, I had some features
Speaker 4: kind of under my belt, and I had one in
Speaker 4: particular that I was I think the most proud of
Speaker 4: been working on the hardest, and basically I started reaching
Speaker 4: out to people. And while I was out here for
Speaker 4: those first couple of years, I was also producing short
Speaker 4: films because I had this awesome ten thousand square foot
Speaker 4: warehouse that would be rented out for events and films
Speaker 4: and stuff, you know, half of the year, and then
Speaker 4: it would just be sitting there if the other half
Speaker 4: of the year. So I would get my buddy who
Speaker 4: had read cameras and lenses and all these different things,
Speaker 4: and we would produce short films and we'd write them
Speaker 4: and produce them. And I had two that premiere at
Speaker 4: the can Film Festival, you know, two different years. So
Speaker 4: I used that and I used like kind of my background,
Speaker 4: and I sent an email to Carson who runs Script Shadow.
Speaker 4: Some people love them, some people hate him, whatever, and
Speaker 4: I attached a feature that I've written that I was
Speaker 4: pretty proud of, and he agreed to host it on
Speaker 4: his site for one of the you know, independent hostings
Speaker 4: that he does, and I would say I got one
Speaker 4: hundred emails from people that were basically, this sucks. You know,
Speaker 4: you don't know what you're talking about. You're a donb millennial.
Speaker 4: I mean literally that. And I got one email from
Speaker 4: somebody who ended up being my manager.
Speaker 5: But you know, am I want to ask you about
Speaker 5: the manager email on a second, but I want to
Speaker 5: before I do, I want to ask you, why why
Speaker 5: do you think you got so much hate mail? Do
Speaker 5: you think it was for a lot of fact we
Speaker 5: know I have I have my own theory about why
Speaker 5: you got so much hate mail. And my theory is this,
Speaker 5: there's a lot of people who have unrealized dreams and
Speaker 5: whenever they kind of see someone coming down the pipeline,
Speaker 5: it's like a chance to sort of almost like if
Speaker 5: I could throw off all this frustration and anger and
Speaker 5: resentment onto somebody else for just even five seconds, I'm
Speaker 5: gonna take that shot. That's my theory about it. But
Speaker 5: why do you think you got so much of those
Speaker 5: angry emails? Yeah?
Speaker 4: I think at the combination of that, and I think
Speaker 4: that you know, I may have come off as a
Speaker 4: little little arrogant because I was like look, you know,
Speaker 4: I've produced these two short films. You know, I'm like
Speaker 4: twenty five, twenty four, twenty five years old, and I
Speaker 4: just could really benefit from hosting the script yaha, YadA, YadA.
Speaker 4: And I think it's a combination of people misreading my
Speaker 4: inventions and also just what you're saying. It's like armchairs,
Speaker 4: you know, screenwriter reviewers, screenplay reviewers, they're sitting there and
Speaker 4: they're rewriting movies in their heads on their sofa, but
Speaker 4: they're not actually out there hitting the pavement. And because
Speaker 4: of that inability to motivate themselves, they're haters.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's that. That's where I think it is. That
Speaker 5: they they're very angry, they're very you know, and a
Speaker 5: lot of the a lot of people in this business.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of awesome people.
Speaker 5: And you and I talk about this, you know, uh,
Speaker 5: because we talk a lot, and we talk about how
Speaker 5: sometimes this business stereotyped is everyone is bitter, angry, out
Speaker 5: to get you. But there's a ton of awesome people
Speaker 5: in this business, and there are many and it's just
Speaker 5: and but but it's unfortunate like situations like that where
Speaker 5: it's like you really see the sort of dark side
Speaker 5: where it's like, what the hell is this? There was
Speaker 5: actually a screenwriting group that used to be a part
Speaker 5: of on Facebook. It was a Facebook group and I
Speaker 5: think it was it was set a private or whatever,
Speaker 5: and I remember people would post in there and they
Speaker 5: would post stuff that was completely wrong, and you would
Speaker 5: sit there and you try to correct, you know, and
Speaker 5: just not not like say like, hey, you're wrong, but
Speaker 5: just say hey, there's another way to do this. They
Speaker 5: would jump all over people, and finally I said, why
Speaker 5: the hell am I part of this freaking group anymore?
Speaker 5: And it's fun.
Speaker 4: It can't all be negative, Yeah, you know, it has
Speaker 4: to be. It has to be. There has to be
Speaker 4: optimism because it's such a hard industry to break into
Speaker 4: that if all people are bringing is negativity, you're just
Speaker 4: going to stop someone from potentially a cheat air dream.
Speaker 5: And it's almost too like when when uh, you know,
Speaker 5: when you're actually producing a film, you know, if you
Speaker 5: have people around you who are constantly just being like
Speaker 5: problems spotters and not problem solvers, you know, there's those
Speaker 5: are the type of people that you.
Speaker 4: Got to like.
Speaker 5: Jettisid from the project as soon as possible.
Speaker 4: Oh totally, man, it's it's you can boil it down to,
Speaker 4: you know, don't bring me the problem, bring me the solution.
Speaker 5: Really Yeah, yeah, you hit the nail right on the
Speaker 5: head mic and uh, you know. And so so as
Speaker 5: you sort of go back to tell that script shadow,
Speaker 5: you got one email that was from a manager who said,
Speaker 5: you know, I want to talk to you.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it was like, I think you showed a
Speaker 4: lot of talent on the page, a little bit about me,
Speaker 4: gave me the background, and he was like, let's, you know,
Speaker 4: let's grab some coffee. And we went and we got coffee,
Speaker 4: and I thought he was great though. I was really
Speaker 4: knowledgeable and nice guy, and you know, I kind of
Speaker 4: just pitched myself as hard as I could, and at
Speaker 4: the end of the meeting he was kind of like,
Speaker 4: all right, what do you want to do? And at
Speaker 4: this point I had an idea of what I wanted
Speaker 4: my next project to be, and had I chose something
Speaker 4: that I felt was, you know, probably not going to
Speaker 4: get made. But if I could partner with the right person,
Speaker 4: I could get in front of the people who would
Speaker 4: potentially make it, and that would open all the other
Speaker 4: doors for me. And it was a script I wrote
Speaker 4: called The Mouse who would be king, And it's the
Speaker 4: story of Mickey Mouse and how Walt Disney developed and
Speaker 4: created Mickey Mouse. That it ends with creations of Mickey Mouse.
Speaker 4: And I wrote it in a very Roger Rabbit way,
Speaker 4: where you see what he's thinking and all these different things.
Speaker 4: And so I told him that, and I was like,
Speaker 4: it's never going to get made, but let's put it
Speaker 4: out there. Let's take meetings and let's get into development
Speaker 4: because you know, we have time. We can do this now.
Speaker 4: Kind of like what that mean? He was like, all right,
Speaker 4: let's do it, and we shook hands and we went
Speaker 4: from there.
Speaker 5: So and then where did you go from there? Did
Speaker 5: you go to start actually going too like all these
Speaker 5: different like pitch meanings and stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we beat out the story. You know,
Speaker 4: I had the story because I grew up in Florida, right,
Speaker 4: and we went to Disney World all the time. And
Speaker 4: at Disney World they have an exhibit called One Man's
Speaker 4: Dream where you can go in and it's like a
Speaker 4: Disney museum. And then there's this movie at the end
Speaker 4: where it basically explains how Walt had created Oswald the
Speaker 4: Lucky Rabbit and it was stolen from him or you know,
Speaker 4: he didn't really understand the full the paradigms of his contract,
Speaker 4: and Universal owned it and he put all this working
Speaker 4: through it, and he's like, I should own this because
Speaker 4: I put all was working through it, And on the
Speaker 4: train ride back home to tell his team and his wife,
Speaker 4: he started coming up with Mickey Mouse. So I knew
Speaker 4: that that's what I wanted to end the movie with.
Speaker 4: Like I had my end. Then I had the idea
Speaker 4: of Walt Disney going on a train and having like
Speaker 4: this just epiphany of Mickey Mouse, and the way that
Speaker 4: I wanted to dramatize it was to actually have Mickey
Speaker 4: Mouse walk on the train car with him. So we
Speaker 4: beat out the story and we you know, I read
Speaker 4: a bunch of books and kind of just filled my
Speaker 4: manager's head with all this knowledge that Didney that he
Speaker 4: didn't otherwise know. And then we wrote it, and I
Speaker 4: wrote drafts and drafts and drafts and drafts while still
Speaker 4: working at the studio, and he was like, finally, you know,
Speaker 4: we nailed it down, and he started tending it. He
Speaker 4: sent it to agencies, sends, production companies, executives, producers, all
Speaker 4: sorts of people, and then the real game began and
Speaker 4: I started taking meetings.
Speaker 5: So how long was it before you know, you talked
Speaker 5: to the manager, you able to beat it out, and
Speaker 5: before you got meetings? How long was that whole time
Speaker 5: seriod there?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: Man?
Speaker 4: I mean I really knew the story, so I think
Speaker 4: it was kind of an easier development process. And it
Speaker 4: was just he and I, so there were weren't a
Speaker 4: lot of coats in the kitchen. I mean probably a
Speaker 4: six month seven months, and then I started taking meetings.
Speaker 5: So when you actually started to take these meetings, what
Speaker 5: were some of the what was some of the feedback
Speaker 5: that you were getting.
Speaker 4: I everyone loved the script. It was it was something
Speaker 4: where they were like, you know, we love the script,
Speaker 4: and we want to know what else you're working on
Speaker 4: and if we can find something to work on together.
Speaker 4: And I started developing, Like I developed a TV show
Speaker 4: with one guy that didn't go anywhere. I developed a
Speaker 4: TV show with Image Movers, which is Roberts and Max's company,
Speaker 4: that didn't go anywhere. And then I took that, and
Speaker 4: I took that somewhere else, and everything kind of led
Speaker 4: into other projects. Every every meeting I had, every conversation
Speaker 4: I had ended up giving me something else to work on,
Speaker 4: or they had something that I could fit into, or
Speaker 4: I showed some sort of interest in a project that
Speaker 4: they brought up in the meeting. And then you know
Speaker 4: that that's really key is you go in there and
Speaker 4: of course I'm nervous, you know, and I'm moved out
Speaker 4: here to do this, and I'm going inter meeting with
Speaker 4: these big guys, right and they can be very intimidating,
Speaker 4: and the key is really to sell them on what
Speaker 4: your brand is and what your personal story is.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 4: And if you can do that, they're going to try
Speaker 4: and find something that they have that almost feels like
Speaker 4: a perfect fit for you, and then you have to
Speaker 4: capitalize on it. And none of those projects went anywhere,
Speaker 4: but they led to other conversations and other development things
Speaker 4: and other specs that led to where I am today.
Speaker 5: So you use that Mickey Mouse script and that sort
Speaker 5: of became like a calling card script to get your throat, yeah,
Speaker 5: to get your foot in the door. And they were saying,
Speaker 5: you know, did they say to you, hey, Mike, we
Speaker 5: love you know? The mouse would be king what else
Speaker 5: do you.
Speaker 4: Have Yeah, I mean there was a little bit of that.
Speaker 4: It was like what else are you thinking about? Like
Speaker 4: what else are you writing? And then based on that,
Speaker 4: it was like if I was writing something that was
Speaker 4: sci fi, they would say, oh, we have this sci
Speaker 4: fi thing, or we or we're looking at this book,
Speaker 4: what do you think about this book? Or for instance,
Speaker 4: when I went to Image Movers, it was more so
Speaker 4: about the fact that I used to box and I
Speaker 4: was an amateur boxer, and they had a producer who
Speaker 4: had optioned all of FX tools short Stories and FX
Speaker 4: toolvote million Dollar Baby, right, so they had optioned all
Speaker 4: of them except for a million Dollar Baby because obviously
Speaker 4: Warners had that, and they were like, would you be
Speaker 4: interested in trying to build a TV show based on
Speaker 4: these short stories? And of course you say yes, and
Speaker 4: astarted developing that and when that fell through, I took
Speaker 4: all of the FX tool references out of what we
Speaker 4: had been working on and I wrote a spec pilot
Speaker 4: just without all those references that I filled it with
Speaker 4: my own personal experiences from boxing, and then that pilot
Speaker 4: became my TV calling card and then we sent that
Speaker 4: out to everybody.
Speaker 5: And so when you set that out to everybody. Did
Speaker 5: you sort of have like a whole another round of
Speaker 5: meetings with like the same Oh yeah, askment companies or
Speaker 5: was it different masage.
Speaker 4: It's kind of like a like an album, Like you
Speaker 4: write an album and then you go on a tour
Speaker 4: and you do all these concerts. Like that's kind of
Speaker 4: how I look at it. You write a script, you
Speaker 4: give it to some of your manager or your agent,
Speaker 4: they send it around to everybody, and then people finally
Speaker 4: get back to home and they want to meet with you.
Speaker 4: And then you go on a tour, you know, and
Speaker 4: then and you're basically going to all these different generals
Speaker 4: and all these different meetings and and hoping that something
Speaker 4: turns into something else. You know. I never feel like
Speaker 4: the specific project that I'm going in with is going
Speaker 4: to sell, you know, I'm not there to sell that project.
Speaker 4: I always feel like I'm there to sell myself as
Speaker 4: a writer and to get on something either they already
Speaker 4: have or just open that line of communication where I
Speaker 4: can pitch them something later on.
Speaker 5: And so when you know, you're building relationships, relationships, so
Speaker 5: now you're and so now they know when you come
Speaker 5: to the door, like oh, you know, there's Michael K. Sledder.
Speaker 5: He's he's guy was so, you know, brought the whole
Speaker 5: Disney project and he's done this and you know so
Speaker 5: and you you know, so they're sort of you're building
Speaker 5: a good reputation for yourself.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you could. This whole countered relationships and it's really
Speaker 4: all it is. You know, somebody who I met, you know,
Speaker 4: five years ago and was a you know, creative exac
Speaker 4: somewhere is now you know, VP production out of a studio, right,
Speaker 4: and I can go to them and be like, you know,
Speaker 4: just just by just because I've kept in contact with
Speaker 4: all these people throughout the years. And then they move
Speaker 4: up and they change, and their mandates change, and you
Speaker 4: never know when you're gonna have something that fits their mandate.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because you know, you know, tastes change, you know,
Speaker 5: And now everybody, I swear like the number one question
Speaker 5: and the number one thing I hear from doing this
Speaker 5: podcast is you know, always have a TV pilot ready,
Speaker 5: because now they all they want something. Everybody wants something episodic.
Speaker 4: Now. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I knew with some
Speaker 4: producers who they don't want a pilot, they want to
Speaker 4: pitch and the specific networks who they have to deal
Speaker 4: with or whoever they've worked with has you know, their
Speaker 4: mandate is, you know, we want to hear the pitch
Speaker 4: and then develop the pilot because there's money. And then
Speaker 4: some producers are like, we only want to take a
Speaker 4: spec pilot out. You know, we don't want to pitch,
Speaker 4: we don't want a bible. We just want to get
Speaker 4: the spec and then take that out. So it's really
Speaker 4: you know, everyone's different, every network's different, every company is different.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know now with everybody else getting into
Speaker 5: the game, like you know, like Amazon, I mean even
Speaker 5: even from a few years ago, you know, an Amazon,
Speaker 5: there's always rumors that Walmart is going to get into
Speaker 5: the custom content game. And I mean you just see
Speaker 5: all these these different players now popping up, and all
Speaker 5: the other players are still there, like your Netflix, you know,
Speaker 5: and and and in Hulu and all your big your
Speaker 5: big studios. So it's just you know, now it's like
Speaker 5: you have a lot of options as a writer.
Speaker 4: That's great, yeah you do. It's just you know, getting
Speaker 4: into the conversation.
Speaker 5: So as you talked about getting into the conversation, you know,
Speaker 5: you had just recently pitched a treatment for a sequel
Speaker 5: for a very well known movie. And I know you
Speaker 5: can't talk too much about it, but uh uh, you know,
Speaker 5: can you just tell, you know, all the listeners about,
Speaker 5: you know, what, what the treatment was that you pitched.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, totally so Bigically what happened is, I'll go
Speaker 4: back and kind of preface it with another story. I
Speaker 4: was sent an article from you know, by my girlfriend
Speaker 4: about this SeaWorld orchid trainer named John Hargrove who worked
Speaker 4: at sea World for fourteen years and became like this
Speaker 4: elite killer whale trainer and quit and he wrote a memoir. So,
Speaker 4: I mean, of course, again growing up in Orlando, I
Speaker 4: have pictures of myself as a little kid, like sitting
Speaker 4: on shammou, right, you know. So I'm like, I don't
Speaker 4: want to see Blackfish. I don't want to know anything
Speaker 4: about it. I know it's probably terrible, but I don't
Speaker 4: need that guilt, you know. So she's said me this
Speaker 4: article and I read it, and I was so drawn
Speaker 4: into that rabbit hole, but I just I totally just
Speaker 4: jumped in and I bought his book and I read
Speaker 4: it overnight and I started like, as I'm reading the
Speaker 4: book on like highlighting themes that I see in my
Speaker 4: head and different things, and he's the author is just
Speaker 4: so interesting. A personal story is so interesting beyond the
Speaker 4: fact that he worked at Ye World. And the day
Speaker 4: after I read it, my girlfriend was in Long Beach
Speaker 4: and just randomly, it's really funny, met the author, who
Speaker 4: doesn't even live out here, and she went up to him,
Speaker 4: was like, you gotta pass to my boyfriend. He's got
Speaker 4: a great idea. You know, how to turn your book
Speaker 4: through a movie. He can do it. We can do
Speaker 4: it together, you know, give him a call. So before
Speaker 4: he could call me, I'd already like hyped up a
Speaker 4: pitch you know of why I should write this movie
Speaker 4: and what my version of his story is, which was
Speaker 4: essentially to take audiences into the tank with him and
Speaker 4: grow that emotional connection that he had with the Killer Will.
Speaker 4: And so I sent him the email called me the
Speaker 4: next day and we talked for like four hours and
Speaker 4: just became really good friends, and he was pretty much like,
Speaker 4: all right, where do I sign? So from there, we
Speaker 4: wrote a thirty page treatment and he took that and
Speaker 4: we pitched it all over town to all different companies,
Speaker 4: and the consensus was, this movie is great. You know,
Speaker 4: this idea is great, but we need you to spect
Speaker 4: the script. So I spec that feature out and then
Speaker 4: we sent that back and it just it just at
Speaker 4: that point, you know, this is a matter of a
Speaker 4: few months, just to go back to what we were
Speaker 4: just talking about. Those companies had already changed their mandate
Speaker 4: and it was like, well, now we're looking for thrillers
Speaker 4: or now we're looking for Netflix or Amazon, and we
Speaker 4: don't think this fits that mandate, blah blah blah. So
Speaker 4: it's fine. So we sent that around and and I
Speaker 4: had met with an executive at Ellen Pompio's company, Calamity.
Speaker 4: Jane Pompio is Meredith Gray on Gray's Anatomy, and we
Speaker 4: had talked about a couple of projects and she is
Speaker 4: a big anti SeaWorld person. So you know, they only
Speaker 4: have a TV deal with ABC, they don't do any films.
Speaker 4: So I reached out to my manager, you know, on
Speaker 4: my My girlfriend is like, you need to you need
Speaker 4: to send it over to them. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 4: they only have a TV deal, and she's like, just
Speaker 4: do it. Just do it because the moral of my
Speaker 4: life and right now is my girlfriend Rachel's always right
Speaker 4: to be comple be honest with you. And every time
Speaker 4: she tells me that I need to do something she's
Speaker 4: and I disagree with her and I end up doing it.
Speaker 4: Everyone benefits from So I've learned that the hard way,
Speaker 4: but she's always right. And so we sent it over
Speaker 4: to them and they called and they were like, we
Speaker 4: love this. You know, we don't know how to do this,
Speaker 4: but we love this, and we want to reach out
Speaker 4: to someone else to try and see if we can
Speaker 4: partner with them because we don't make movies. And it
Speaker 4: just so happened that person that they wanted to reach
Speaker 4: out to was Lauren Schuer Donner, who of course is
Speaker 4: the amazing producer of all the X Men films and Deadpool,
Speaker 4: and she produced Free Willy. And she's the wife of
Speaker 4: Richard Donner, who everyone knows is the director of Superman,
Speaker 4: the Omen Bethileppin, The Gooney's all that, and they're big
Speaker 4: anti activity, anti fur anti zoo, all that. So we
Speaker 4: went down the line with them and they were interested,
Speaker 4: and at the end of the day, it just wasn't
Speaker 4: something that they felt they wanted to go down again
Speaker 4: because they again, they produced Free Willy, and they got
Speaker 4: kind of attacked for that at a time, and they
Speaker 4: were like, we don't really want to do that again.
Speaker 4: So my manager went in and he met with the
Speaker 4: head of their company and he was like, well, what
Speaker 4: else Mike want to do? And my manager started talking
Speaker 4: to him about a couple of projects that I had
Speaker 4: that everyone considers to be ambling in tone, as in
Speaker 4: seven Spielbert's Pression Company, of course, and he was like, well,
Speaker 4: we wanted to do a Doonies too for a long time,
Speaker 4: and we've heard a lot of pitches and we've got
Speaker 4: a lot of treatments. So I'm basically every writer.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 4: In Hollywood, and nobody can get you know, Dick and
Speaker 4: Stephen and Chris Columbus to agree on their version of
Speaker 4: the sequel. What do you want to do that? And
Speaker 4: my manager's like, yeah, of course he wants to do that.
Speaker 4: I mean, he's kidding me, right. So I get a
Speaker 4: call and my manager and he's like, what do you
Speaker 4: think about the Goonies And I'm like, are you serious? Like,
Speaker 4: of course I want to do there. I mean, of
Speaker 4: course I want to throw, you know, throw my cards
Speaker 4: in it. And really try to throw in my hand,
Speaker 4: but it was quite a challenge. So we sat down
Speaker 4: and I watched the original movie a dozen times again
Speaker 4: and came up with a with an idea for a
Speaker 4: new Goonies movie. Not exactly a sequel, I wouldn't I
Speaker 4: wouldn't really say, but sort of like, how do I
Speaker 4: force awakens the Goonies? Right?
Speaker 5: Yeah, and uh, I think again, because I don't know
Speaker 5: how how. I don't want to go to in depth
Speaker 5: of it, but there's there is one thing I want
Speaker 5: to say that that it was I think was awesome
Speaker 5: that you did and when this was since since will,
Speaker 5: when I Willi's treasure was found, the town itself was
Speaker 5: basically had become Hey, nobody, it's not special anymore because
Speaker 5: there's no more there's no more treasure to.
Speaker 4: Find, right Toltally, it's it's how do you tell this story?
Speaker 4: You know, thirty something years after the first movie took place,
Speaker 4: and it also you know, I love the Goounies and
Speaker 4: everyone loved the Gunies, but it's a it's a product
Speaker 4: of it of the year it came out, right, and
Speaker 4: you really it would be really hard to make that
Speaker 4: kind of movie today because there's just constraints with the
Speaker 4: way that budgets work and just having an all kid
Speaker 4: casts and all these different things. So it was really
Speaker 4: how do I in a way bring the magic and
Speaker 4: tone of the original into today's marketplace and into today's
Speaker 4: kids in the world of today's kids, And then how
Speaker 4: do I bring select members of the cast back and
Speaker 4: have them involved. So I don't know, I don't know
Speaker 4: if the movie will ever get made. I don't know
Speaker 4: if they'll ever be a new Gooney's movie, because it's
Speaker 4: hard for everyone to agree on something. But you know,
Speaker 4: decas it and he's reading in I'm just waiting to
Speaker 4: hear back from him now. So do you ever think, Mike,
Speaker 4: that you would ever maybe use this treatment as a
Speaker 4: sort of like a pitch for other projects? So maybe, like,
Speaker 4: you know, if you ever they ever said, hey, Mike,
Speaker 4: what else if you were working on You'll say, hey,
Speaker 4: I've worked on this Gooney's treatment for for you know,
Speaker 4: and I pitched it to Richard Donner.
Speaker 5: And you know, would you ever at any point ever do.
Speaker 4: Something like that. Absolutely every conversation I've had since I've
Speaker 4: brought that up in the room, you know, because everyone
Speaker 4: collectively loves the Guneyes, So when you bring that up
Speaker 4: and if you know, they want to kind of know
Speaker 4: what the basis of the pitches, and you know, without
Speaker 4: giving too much away, you give that to them and
Speaker 4: then they can kind of see how your mind works
Speaker 4: when adapting other material. You know, source material, which is
Speaker 4: key right now because that's what everyone's doing. And it's
Speaker 4: actually funny because of the project that I'm most excited
Speaker 4: about and currently developing that I can't really say the
Speaker 4: name of what it is and who the players are,
Speaker 4: but it's two veteran producers who made, you know, a
Speaker 4: lot of movies, and it's an adaptation of a classic
Speaker 4: story by a well respected author. And I partially believe that,
Speaker 4: you know, it was sort of a combination of Beneath
Speaker 4: the Surface, which is a cer World movie, that script
Speaker 4: getting me in the door with them, and then me saying,
Speaker 4: you know, oh, by the way, right now, I'm also
Speaker 4: writing a treatment and pitching a Gooney sequel, and here's
Speaker 4: kind of how I'm doing it and how I'm adapting it.
Speaker 5: So so so as you know you're going to these
Speaker 5: pitch meetings and as you are sort of working on things,
Speaker 5: you know, one of the things that you and I
Speaker 5: always talk about is development and you know sort of
Speaker 5: and sort of managing expectations. So what are some of
Speaker 5: the things that you know, you can sort of discuss about,
Speaker 5: you know, development, Like let's just say, for instance, let's
Speaker 5: just give a scenario example. Let's just say that somebody
Speaker 5: does buy a script. It's a completely original specscript, they
Speaker 5: were to buy it. You know what, what are some
Speaker 5: of the things that happened at development.
Speaker 4: It's interesting. I think a lot of people, myself included,
Speaker 4: kind of always felt or or or still feel that
Speaker 4: once you get to the point in your career where
Speaker 4: you're actually meeting with the real producers, you know, not
Speaker 4: just the assistance or anything like that, but the actual
Speaker 4: people who can sign a check, that everything just changes.
Speaker 4: But the reality is, you know, the ceiling just gets higher, right,
Speaker 4: so you climb up to the top of Everest, only
Speaker 4: to realize is that there's another like, you know, six
Speaker 4: hundred miles that you can't see because it's so freaking tall.
Speaker 4: And that that's how it feels. So I think, you know,
Speaker 4: when someone comes along and they buy a spec, they're
Speaker 4: gonna do one of two things. If it's a big spec,
Speaker 4: like if we're talking, you know, Blockbuster Temple, they're going
Speaker 4: to hire a studio writer to do a polish. And
Speaker 4: that's partially two. If it's a if it's a big
Speaker 4: studio and they're they've got shareholders that they have to convince,
Speaker 4: it's that it's like, well, we'll have the Coen Brothers
Speaker 4: come in and they'll do a polish on all the
Speaker 4: dialogue and everyone will be happy to give us the
Speaker 4: money to make the movie. If it's a smaller contained
Speaker 4: kind of genre film, like a ten qulverfilled lane or
Speaker 4: something like that, then it's a whole different conversation. Then
Speaker 4: then you could be the sole writer, unless they hire
Speaker 4: a writer director who wants to come in and do
Speaker 4: a polish as well. The other end of the coin
Speaker 4: is when in the situation I'm in now is that
Speaker 4: it has something pitched to me. You know, So I
Speaker 4: go in and I pitch five movies, and they want
Speaker 4: to one of the movies I pitch, and they also,
Speaker 4: but you know, but first we want to do one
Speaker 4: of the ones that we're looking at with you, So
Speaker 4: they pitch me the movie. Then it's you know, I
Speaker 4: got to look at the source material, which is a book.
Speaker 4: I got to figure out how am I going to
Speaker 4: add my voice or you know, what's my style with
Speaker 4: this source material, and then it just begins this really
Speaker 4: lengthy process of development that nobody really understands, and I'm
Speaker 4: just still learning it as I go, because one, every
Speaker 4: executive and producer is different, and two it's just not
Speaker 4: something that anybody ever talks about in film school or
Speaker 4: anywhere else. So in this circumstance, it's it's very much like, Okay,
Speaker 4: read the book and then give us an outline, right,
Speaker 4: that was the first thing. It's like, give us an
Speaker 4: online of how you would adapt it. So then I
Speaker 4: sit down and I write, you know, like a ten
Speaker 4: to twelve page outline and it's basically in pros that's
Speaker 4: just how I write my outlines. And I send it
Speaker 4: over to them and they're like, okay, great, well come
Speaker 4: into the office. I'm gonna talk about it. So go
Speaker 4: in the office. They tell me what they love, they
Speaker 4: tell me what they don't really like, and then they
Speaker 4: tell me, you know, kind of how to help structure it.
Speaker 4: Because a lot of the studios, and this is fairly true,
Speaker 4: then you know, they categorize writers in two different categories. Right.
Speaker 4: One is a writer who can write character, and the
Speaker 4: other is a writer who can write structure. And the
Speaker 4: key I think is to really understand character, because they
Speaker 4: can give you the structure if you can come up
Speaker 4: with the characters, and.
Speaker 5: You can come up with what the real story.
Speaker 4: Is behind everything and why you need to tell this
Speaker 4: story and why these characters are going throop what they're
Speaker 4: going through and not just you know, bye page twelve
Speaker 4: for at the inciting incident, blah blah blah blah blah,
Speaker 4: save the cat. If you can come up with the characters,
Speaker 4: they are paid to kind of look at it like
Speaker 4: math and look at it like plotting. So they're going
Speaker 4: to look at what you give them and they're gonna say, okay,
Speaker 4: so do you think this section of your outline is
Speaker 4: like the first five pages? And you say, yes, that's
Speaker 4: first five pages and then blah blah blah, and it
Speaker 4: helps you. It helps them to plot it in their
Speaker 4: mind from a producing standpoint, whereas use the writers should
Speaker 4: be thinking about the characters. And when I look at
Speaker 4: a lot of movies and I see you know that,
Speaker 4: and I'm just unhappy with the screenplays, it's because they're
Speaker 4: coming at it from a complete structure and you know
Speaker 4: stand or POV and not from character. And I can
Speaker 4: see it when I watch the movies. And I can
Speaker 4: also see complacency where it's like, you could have made
Speaker 4: that better, but you didn't because of one or two things. One,
Speaker 4: you're getting a paycheck and it doesn't matter because you
Speaker 4: know they're gonna market a shit out of the movie
Speaker 4: and million, million of million people are gonna see. Two
Speaker 4: because you're nervous.
Speaker 5: You're in the room with these guys.
Speaker 4: They have a bad idea and you're afraid to tell
Speaker 4: them no, or you're afraid to say yes, smile and nod,
Speaker 4: go home and find out how to best tweak their
Speaker 4: ideas that are worse than the story. And that, to
Speaker 4: me is what development is. It's this long process six
Speaker 4: months to a year, where you're beating out the story
Speaker 4: with producers in the hopes that at the end of
Speaker 4: this process they're either going to hire you to write
Speaker 4: the script or they're going to make a deal with
Speaker 4: you where you spec the script and then once the
Speaker 4: project gets funded, then you get paid. Yeah.
Speaker 5: And you know, there was an article, I think it
Speaker 5: was a wal Street journal about how you know why
Speaker 5: do so many of these these big budget movies feel
Speaker 5: the same. And that was the answer, was they think
Speaker 5: that there's too much, you know, save the cat structure
Speaker 5: in there because it's all structure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and that's great. I mean, you need structure,
Speaker 4: but you should be the story guy. The writers should
Speaker 4: be the story guy. The writers should be the person
Speaker 4: who makes the audience feel for the themes and the
Speaker 4: characters and the film or the TV series.
Speaker 5: The executives, the.
Speaker 4: Suits, the money people.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 4: They should be the structure guys and girls. They should
Speaker 4: be the people who are looking at it from a
Speaker 4: plotting pov so that when they call a director who
Speaker 4: comes in, they can beat out the acts with the
Speaker 4: director and he totally understands what they're saying. It's like math.
Speaker 4: Let them do the math, but you have to provide
Speaker 4: them with the numbers.
Speaker 5: So and you know, I was talking to somebody about
Speaker 5: this too. Was you know, if you look at movies
Speaker 5: in from like the seventies and the eighties, you know
Speaker 5: there's there's all these you know, really unique movies and
Speaker 5: you sort of as you sort of get to the
Speaker 5: sort of end of the nineties to now, you can
Speaker 5: see the big difference. And the big difference is it's
Speaker 5: almost like with now they want to sort of have
Speaker 5: creativity controlled where they know sort of what they're going
Speaker 5: they want to have it. So it's almost like the
Speaker 5: project is handheld from all these steps and they're sort
Speaker 5: of like, Okay, you know now on page seventeen, this
Speaker 5: has to happen. On page twenty five, this has to happen.
Speaker 5: Stuff like that, right, right, totally.
Speaker 4: It's interesting. I mean, I've never thought about writing like
Speaker 4: that ever in my life. I've never I've read all
Speaker 4: these books, and I've taken all these classes, and I've
Speaker 4: and I understand the logic, but I've never truly approached
Speaker 4: writing that way. I've always approached it as what is
Speaker 4: the story? Why is the story relevant? And how do
Speaker 4: I fit these characters and these things in just today's marketplace.
Speaker 4: That's the only math I ever do. I don't worry
Speaker 4: about what happens by page thirty, with page twenty five
Speaker 4: or page sixty, not at least until after I've written
Speaker 4: out an outline or a treatment or even a first draft.
Speaker 4: Then I start to think Okay, how can I whittle
Speaker 4: this down? You know, how can I get the action
Speaker 4: started earlier? But I I the key is really to
Speaker 4: just do it, get it finished, and then you can
Speaker 4: always go back and correct it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like Tarantino on the Coln Brothers. They don't write,
Speaker 5: you know, by that either, you know, I know there's
Speaker 5: a lot of other like Kevin Smith, Robertriguez, I know,
Speaker 5: he's those don't those guys don't write by the whole,
Speaker 5: like you know, hey, we have to have this happen
Speaker 5: by this page and stuff like that. And I think,
Speaker 5: you know, yeah, and I think what it happened is
Speaker 5: I think as you sort of try to crack this nut,
Speaker 5: so to speak. I think that's where you see guys
Speaker 5: like Sidfield and Blake Saider to save the cat, they
Speaker 5: sort of wonder, you know, okay, how did they write this?
Speaker 5: There's somebody whoever script it is, how do they write
Speaker 5: this script? And what are what doct what are all
Speaker 5: the good things that they have in common? So these
Speaker 5: scripts that are you know, the top one percentile, what
Speaker 5: are they actually doing versus what they're not doing? And
Speaker 5: I think that's then that's where all these systems come from,
Speaker 5: like you know, and that's where all these books come from.
Speaker 4: Yeah, smart understand, and it's far to read the books
Speaker 4: and the smart to kind of get what you know,
Speaker 4: the end goal is and and understand the structure. But
Speaker 4: I just I don't think anything should ever be approached
Speaker 4: with structure in mind. First. I'm not saying you should
Speaker 4: have a first act that goes, you know, eighty pages,
Speaker 4: but I am saying that, you know, if you look
Speaker 4: at some of your favorite movies, like you just said,
Speaker 4: they're not really going off of any structure. They're going
Speaker 4: off of what's the best way to tell the story.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think also that I think that's why
Speaker 5: independent film now is sort of having, you know, it's
Speaker 5: sort of why you know, crowdfunding and everything else. I
Speaker 5: think its actually becomes more popular. That's gonna be where
Speaker 5: you know, more people are gonna say, you know, I
Speaker 5: could just crowd follow my movie for maybe twenty thirty
Speaker 5: forty thousand dollars and at least shoot it the way
Speaker 5: I want to, rather than rewrite it and try to
Speaker 5: actually you know, sell to an agency or whatever.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, And I mean you can you can definitely
Speaker 4: do that and there's definitely ways to modifyze that and
Speaker 4: build the career off of that. I think my approach is,
Speaker 4: how can I get into the system and not change
Speaker 4: the system, but just bring that storytelling approach into the
Speaker 4: system with some of the bigger titles and bigger films,
Speaker 4: and to not be complacent and just say yes to everything,
Speaker 4: but to find the best way to tell the stories.
Speaker 4: Because if you find the best way to tell a
Speaker 4: story and you can pitch it to an executive or
Speaker 4: producer and they know that what you're saying makes sense
Speaker 4: and is right, they're not going to tell you no.
Speaker 4: They don't want to make a bad movie. Like the
Speaker 4: goal isn't to make a bad movie. You just have
Speaker 4: to be ten steps ahead and be willing to tell
Speaker 4: them your idea. Yeah, it's uh, that is you know.
Speaker 5: Key is is sort of how to communicate, right, So
Speaker 5: how do you communicate something without actually, you know, nobody
Speaker 5: wants to say no, but you also can't say yeah,
Speaker 5: So you have to communicate in a different way.
Speaker 4: And I remember, yeah, I mean it's risk management. You know.
Speaker 4: You have to give them a way that they can
Speaker 4: tell their boss, or tell their financiers, or tell the
Speaker 4: studio that they have to deal with. You have to
Speaker 4: give it to them so that they can they can
Speaker 4: express the idea or the story or the structure or
Speaker 4: whatever you're presenting them with in the best way to
Speaker 4: their bosses.
Speaker 5: Right, yeah, yeah, because that way, you know, obviously it's
Speaker 5: sort of you know how they nobody wants to be
Speaker 5: the person who says no. Because I was reading a
Speaker 5: book about this a few years ago and they said,
Speaker 5: you know, if you you don't want to tell you know,
Speaker 5: the next Vince Gilligan no, and then you know, if
Speaker 5: you if you work for that, that that studio and
Speaker 5: then all of a sudden needs a hit. And then
Speaker 5: he comes back and says, now, aren't you that person
Speaker 5: that said no to me?
Speaker 4: Hell?
Speaker 5: Aren't you that guy? Totally You're totally right, So you know,
Speaker 5: And Mike, I just wanted to ask one I have
Speaker 5: I have a few more final questions. I know we're
Speaker 5: starting to get on out of time, as I see
Speaker 5: the count. I didn't even I realized this, This conversation
Speaker 5: flew by. I didn't even realize how long we were talking.
Speaker 5: And so, you know, for writing competitions, what do you
Speaker 5: think are some of the top writing competitions out there
Speaker 5: right now for writers, ah oh Man.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it all depends on what your
Speaker 4: goal is. If your goal is to get some representation,
Speaker 4: then I think, you know, Nichols is always great because
Speaker 4: it's such a well respected contest. I think that the
Speaker 4: tracking boards contests are really great. I know a lot
Speaker 4: of people get reps based off of that. If you're
Speaker 4: trying to make some money, you know, put a little
Speaker 4: bit of money in your pocket, then I think there's
Speaker 4: a lot of genre based writing competitions that have money prizes,
Speaker 4: and maybe their contacts aren't as good as some of
Speaker 4: the other ones, but you're going to get some money
Speaker 4: out of it. So I think it's really how you
Speaker 4: how you want to approach it. Do you want to
Speaker 4: build a career and get representation or do you want
Speaker 4: to get like forty g you know in the in
Speaker 4: the bank.
Speaker 5: And you know, because I know you went through the
Speaker 5: you know, Script Shadows website and you were you know,
Speaker 5: I was just wondering, you know, because I know again
Speaker 5: as we were talking about opportunities, you know, all the
Speaker 5: different opportunities out there, and you know, that's that's why
Speaker 5: I asked that question, just to see because every time
Speaker 5: I turn around, this new writing competition opening up, and yeah,
Speaker 5: I don't know a lot of them, you know.
Speaker 4: I mean I don't. I'm not really familialuse I don't
Speaker 4: enter a lot of them. I mean, I think Blacklist
Speaker 4: is great if you have the money to spend on evaluations.
Speaker 4: So I think I think Blacklist is still a very
Speaker 4: good asset. Like I said, I love the guys at
Speaker 4: the tracking board. I think what they're doing is is great.
Speaker 4: And they have a lot of great managers and agents
Speaker 4: on their review boards that that do judge these scripts,
Speaker 4: and they do sign writers and give them other opportunities.
Speaker 4: And I know that from a genre pov, like if
Speaker 4: you're doing a horror script or a sci fi script,
Speaker 4: is probably great genre contest. I don't that are offering
Speaker 4: cash prizes or or you know the opportunity to pitch
Speaker 4: a producer or or you know, producers are partnering with
Speaker 4: these contests. I don't. I just I'm not well versed
Speaker 4: in in their names and what they are exactly, But
Speaker 4: I agree that they're popping up every day.
Speaker 5: Yeah, particularly the Bloodlist that came out of nowhere, and
Speaker 5: when I heard about what that is, I was like, Wow,
Speaker 5: that's a fantastic idea.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good one for sure. And by the way,
Speaker 4: for those.
Speaker 5: Listing the blood List is uh, actually I realized that
Speaker 5: I said it, like there's probably actually explained what we do.
Speaker 5: So the bud List is the is the is the
Speaker 5: ranking of the top horror unproduced horror scripts that are
Speaker 5: out there. And this was put together by I think,
Speaker 5: is it Kelly Marshak is there or Kelly marsh Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's uh, it's she actually put this together, and it's
Speaker 5: it's sort of like the Blacklist, but for horror scripts.
Speaker 4: And uh, you know, gu horror is so underappreciated man,
Speaker 4: And and I was just having this conversation that I
Speaker 4: day is like some of the best directors come from horror,
Speaker 4: like even someone like Spielberg, Like if you watch his
Speaker 4: action sequences and like Jurassic Park or some of the
Speaker 4: even the close Encounters and et they're all tension and
Speaker 4: horror based, Like it's all about building the anticipation for
Speaker 4: the scare or the reveal, and that's all classic horror filmmaking.
Speaker 4: And I think that the genre is totally underappreciated, especially
Speaker 4: when you look at so many great directors who come
Speaker 4: from it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's so true. I mean, if you'll go all
Speaker 5: the people who started off for horror and uh and
Speaker 5: you know it was like particularly like guys like Sam Raimi. Uh,
Speaker 5: they started out totally.
Speaker 4: I mean, look at his career like it's it's it's amazing.
Speaker 4: He has the career that anyone could dream for.
Speaker 5: Yeah he does, and uh.
Speaker 4: You know, and he's a great guy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and and and he's he's been, you know, making
Speaker 5: all these great projects and uh. Now look he's got
Speaker 5: the Evil Dead TV series.
Speaker 4: And uh, exactly, and it's great, you know, and he's
Speaker 4: doing great things with it. He's just just launched Skydance Television.
Speaker 4: You've got a whole in the TV you know, profession company.
Speaker 4: And he's really taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that
Speaker 4: is today's current TV mark.
Speaker 5: Yeah. And uh, you know that's when now you know,
Speaker 5: you're we're talking about episodic stuff and that's something else too,
Speaker 5: is a game because everyone I swear Mike, it's always
Speaker 5: about you know, hey, feature films are great, but you know,
Speaker 5: do you have anything episodic? Do you have anything that
Speaker 5: like a TV pilot that can you know, go on
Speaker 5: for eighteen years like, uh, you know, but but yeah,
Speaker 5: totally yeah, yeah, And you know that's that's always something
Speaker 5: on too in the back burner that I've always been
Speaker 5: making sure I have at least a couple of you know,
Speaker 5: TV pilots and uh yeah, exactly, you know, anything, you know,
Speaker 5: just just making up, you know, just just in case
Speaker 5: they actually say, you know, hey, you know, what else
Speaker 5: do you have? And you know you're ready to be prepared.
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Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 5: And I also think, like as we you know, we
Speaker 5: talk about expectations and development and all and networking and
Speaker 5: all the stuff that we've talked about, I think being prepared, yeah,
Speaker 5: you know, I think you'll agree with this. I don't
Speaker 5: think you're ever really one hundred percent prepared. You can
Speaker 5: just do what you can do, and if and and
Speaker 5: sooner or later, if he keeps trying, you're going to
Speaker 5: be in the right place at the right time.
Speaker 4: You gotta love the process, you know, you gotta love
Speaker 4: the process. You gotta be willing to get a day
Speaker 4: job if you need some money. You gotta be willing
Speaker 4: to sleep on a couch if you don't have a
Speaker 4: place to stay. You just gotta love the process of
Speaker 4: hitting the pavement, finding representation, and then taking that and
Speaker 4: exploiting that to the ends of the earth to meet
Speaker 4: all these traditions and executives and then hoping that you
Speaker 4: get into development. And then you have to learn from
Speaker 4: love the process of development, which is hard because there's
Speaker 4: not a lot of money in it, and you know,
Speaker 4: if there is any at all, it's it's not a
Speaker 4: ton up front. So you have to really love the
Speaker 4: process and love how it feels to crack a story
Speaker 4: and to negotiate for plot points with executives and defend
Speaker 4: your case. You have to learn to love that, and
Speaker 4: if you can learn to fall in love with that,
Speaker 4: then the rest of it is is Kate.
Speaker 5: Very well, said Mike. Mike, so we're just about out
Speaker 5: of time, and I agree, Mike, you have to love
Speaker 5: that process and you're just in closing way. I just
Speaker 5: want to ask, you, know, work, if you'll find you
Speaker 5: out online.
Speaker 4: I'm always you know, I'm on Facebook, Michael kse Snyder,
Speaker 4: I'm on Twitter at m K Snyder nineteen ninety I'm
Speaker 4: always looking people to reach out and connect and if
Speaker 4: I can help, I'm more than happy to. I'm always
Speaker 4: looking to collaborate on different things and help put the
Speaker 4: pieces of the puzzle together.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and everyone, Mike is a fantastic guy. I've known
Speaker 5: Mike for years now, and as I'm going through my
Speaker 5: just to my mental role decks, Mike, I think I
Speaker 5: might might have known you longer than anybody else. No, no, no,
Speaker 5: though there's two of the people have had on a
Speaker 5: podcast where I've no longer than you. So you're like,
Speaker 5: you're like number, You're like the third or fourth person
Speaker 5: in live people I've known long. I love it, but uh,
Speaker 5: because I just remembered there's a friend I had on
Speaker 5: here for middle School episode one with Chris Pireminico and
Speaker 5: Chris actually you know, Chris actually was a producer on
Speaker 5: Game Over and he also actually now teaches film and
Speaker 5: TV production, and that was that was a fun interview.
Speaker 5: And I'll give you this little snid bit. It was
Speaker 5: just funny because he he's like, I'm in I'm teaching now.
Speaker 5: He's like so, so he's like, don't curse, don't tell
Speaker 5: any weird stories before and I'm like, oh Jesus christ Man,
Speaker 5: that's all I do. Is curse and tell. Yeah, if
Speaker 5: you take that away from me, I'm not Dave Bullets anymore.
Speaker 5: All I do is Chris tell weird stories.
Speaker 4: That's awesome, that's You're right. Uh, I love it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, very very true, Mike. Uh, and Mike again, I
Speaker 5: want to say thank you so much. You and I
Speaker 5: have been friends for years.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: You know, you're somebody whose opinion I really trust and
Speaker 5: I really, I really just know that you were going
Speaker 5: to hit a huge, colossal grand slam soon enough.
Speaker 4: Thanks man, I really appreciate that and the feelings mutual,
Speaker 4: my friend. You know I think that. Yeah, your opinion
Speaker 4: is one of the opinions I value more than many others.
Speaker 4: You know, I send you work before other people see
Speaker 4: it because you're that guy man, you have you have
Speaker 4: great taste.
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you, Mike. I appreciate that. And everybody, everybody,
Speaker 5: make sure you go check out Mike. Seriously, this guy
Speaker 5: is always on the ball. He's always doing something really
Speaker 5: really cool. So please go check out Mike and Mike.
Speaker 5: Anything I'm gonna come back on, please let me know.
Speaker 5: I'd love to have you on. And uh, I wish
Speaker 5: you the best of luck man everything.
Speaker 4: Thanks Man, I will. I'll take up on that.
Speaker 5: It sounds good, buddy. I take care of you too,
Speaker 5: my friend.
Speaker 2: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
Speaker 2: a great job on this episode. If you want to
Speaker 2: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
Speaker 2: head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
Speaker 5: Forward slash four four.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to guys, as always,
Speaker 2: keep on writing no matter what.
Speaker 4: I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting
Speaker 1: dot tv.