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<v Speaker 1>The goal was to create a place where you had

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<v Speaker 1>the power of choice. That's the reason why we created

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<v Speaker 1>Ero dot net A r r oe dot net, twenty

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<v Speaker 1>different daily podcasts for you to say, yeah, no way, Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>for the love of God, please, Oh there's no way

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going there. Oh here's one that I might be

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<v Speaker 1>interested in. See what I mean? We do it every

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<v Speaker 1>day on Hulu, Netflix and everything else, including Disney Plus.

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<v Speaker 1>So why not do it with your podcasting too, one place,

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<v Speaker 1>Big variety, Aro dot net A r r oe dot Net.

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<v Speaker 1>Enjoy your exploration. Hey man, thanks for coming back to

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<v Speaker 1>the conversation. Let's do some podcrashing. For eighty four is

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<v Speaker 1>with Ben Higgins from his podcast If you can hear me, Ben,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm very fascinated with your process here in the way

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<v Speaker 1>that you have discovered the art of listening or you've

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<v Speaker 1>mastered it in the way that you're bringing real stories out.

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<v Speaker 1>And I crave this stuff and I can't be the

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<v Speaker 1>only one that consistently looks for real people with real stories.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that's very nice, you know. I I've loved the

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<v Speaker 2>process of listening to these stories, and I think that's why.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know if I'd say I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>master of it as very kind of you to say

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<v Speaker 2>to me, But I think it's very easy to get

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<v Speaker 2>engaged into these like this, these moments because humans are

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<v Speaker 2>so interesting. When you actually pull back the layers and

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<v Speaker 2>you actually hear you know who they are as people,

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<v Speaker 2>and why they think the way they think, and what

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<v Speaker 2>things from their past affect them, and what things that

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<v Speaker 2>they're from their past don't affect them. The conversation has

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<v Speaker 2>become something so illuminating and fascinating, and I see just

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<v Speaker 2>like beauty and brilliance in them, and so it's fun

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<v Speaker 2>for me to be able to be a part of them.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you believe in the mantra they're not happy to

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<v Speaker 1>see me, They're just happy that I see them.

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<v Speaker 2>Ooh yeah, I think. I mean, I think that puts

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of weight right on me. I think every

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<v Speaker 2>human desires It's kind of the title of the podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>right if you can hear me in a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>In a lot of ways, you could change it to

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<v Speaker 2>if you can see me. I think every human just

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<v Speaker 2>wants to be known, and they want people to take

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<v Speaker 2>the time to actually get to know them. They don't

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<v Speaker 2>just want the Hey, how are you doing great to

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<v Speaker 2>meet you. Let's talk about the business reports from today.

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<v Speaker 2>Humans are craving this desire for the conversation to lead

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<v Speaker 2>to a place of tell me about yourself, and then

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<v Speaker 2>to go from there to the can you just tell

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<v Speaker 2>me a little bit more, tell me a little bit more,

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<v Speaker 2>tell me a little bit more. We're craving that because

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<v Speaker 2>we just want to share our experiences in life with others.

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<v Speaker 1>See, I wish I would have been in those rooms

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<v Speaker 1>when you when you talked with them. And the reason

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<v Speaker 1>why is because I think that when people start talking

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<v Speaker 1>about their history, they stare at their feet. It's it's

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<v Speaker 1>almost like saying, I got a pair of shoes if

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<v Speaker 1>you want to try them on, because I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>share these stories with you. But you didn't experience them

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<v Speaker 1>with me, and you bring that out to where it

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<v Speaker 1>feels like you put on their damn shoes. Dude.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, you know I would love for you to

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<v Speaker 2>be there as well. First off, that would be a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of fun. We could do this together. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I had an interview at the very beginning of this

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<v Speaker 2>with I was on a reality television show. I ended

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<v Speaker 2>up with somebody on that show for a few years

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<v Speaker 2>we broke up and she married a country singer named

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<v Speaker 2>Chris Lane. He was my very first guest on If

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<v Speaker 2>You Can Hear Me, and I thought it was gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be one of those moments where he was staring at

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<v Speaker 2>his shoes and it was super awkward and super weird,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was hard to kind of pull anything out,

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<v Speaker 2>and it just felt like we were dancing around this

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<v Speaker 2>massive conversation that we should be having that we just

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't have because neither of us wanted to approach it.

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<v Speaker 2>And that conversation ended up becoming so beautiful. Not only

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<v Speaker 2>did we approach you know, the maybe the stuff that

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<v Speaker 2>people would be shocked by, we got to digging even

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<v Speaker 2>further to our lives and how beautiful it is that

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<v Speaker 2>relationships end so that new ones can begin, and what

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<v Speaker 2>that means for him and his family and me and

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<v Speaker 2>my family. So, you know, I think for those moments

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<v Speaker 2>of really that could be a little standoffish and awkward

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe somebody's uncomfortable to be asked the questions that

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<v Speaker 2>I really want to ask, it ends up becoming something

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful when you actually can get to a place where

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<v Speaker 2>these conversations are mattering, where you're digging in deep because

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's where the magic happens.

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<v Speaker 1>So how do you even show prep for this? Because

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<v Speaker 1>they sound so natural, your questions, they sound like that

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<v Speaker 1>it would actually come up in a conversation if you

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<v Speaker 1>were sitting in the front seat of my car.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, you know. I show prep by doing a

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<v Speaker 2>deep dive on each one of my guests, deep deep,

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<v Speaker 2>deep dive. And then I always spend a little time

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<v Speaker 2>in prayer, which which is important to me and my faith.

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<v Speaker 2>But my final step is really and I've only been

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<v Speaker 2>doing this with if you can hear me, I have

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<v Speaker 2>a pop culture show and I are radio called almost famous.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't do this for that. I've only been doing

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<v Speaker 2>it for if you can hear me. I am doing

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<v Speaker 2>this where I put the notes of the guests in

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<v Speaker 2>front of me, and I kind of start to picture

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<v Speaker 2>the conversation like people say picture your golf shot when

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<v Speaker 2>you're golfing, like picture the shot you want to hit.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of picturing the conversation and picturing the questions

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<v Speaker 2>I want to ask and almost getting a sense of, well,

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<v Speaker 2>how would I feel somebody asked me that question, or

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<v Speaker 2>what question would I want to be asked if this

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<v Speaker 2>was my response to a story, and that's really helped

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<v Speaker 2>me prep and it's also helped me build a deep

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<v Speaker 2>sense of empathy towards the conversations. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>But when you start digging that deep, though, ben, do

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<v Speaker 1>you step into their lives? And then when that conversation

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<v Speaker 1>is over, you go into post production blues because you've

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<v Speaker 1>got to regain your strength. You just stepped into an

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<v Speaker 1>area that wasn't you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I used to, and I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe you can help me guide me with this. I

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<v Speaker 2>used to have these conversations on a previous show I

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<v Speaker 2>did years ago, and I would feel very sad once

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<v Speaker 2>the conversations would end, because you almost feel like you

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<v Speaker 2>just build a new friend, and a lot of times

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<v Speaker 2>it's like, I don't know if I'll ever talk to

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<v Speaker 2>that friend again. And then if you try to be

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<v Speaker 2>friends with every one of your guests, you're going to

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<v Speaker 2>be exhausted by the end of the work, so you

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<v Speaker 2>can't really do that either. That's not really an option here.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've built boundaries, but there has been zero every

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<v Speaker 2>I guess I should say it this way, every conversation

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<v Speaker 2>I've had on if you can hear me when I

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<v Speaker 2>sit and think about it afterwards, has impacted me and

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<v Speaker 2>as I process the conversation, There's been takeaways that I

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<v Speaker 2>could tell you from each episode, Like if we ran

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<v Speaker 2>down the list of episodes so far, I can say

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<v Speaker 2>that was my takeaway here. That's what moments stood out

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<v Speaker 2>to me here, that's an issue like I remember, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>disagreeing with this statement. Everyone has that, and so for me,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm more curious to say, are more interested in the

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<v Speaker 2>pursuit of what can I learn also from this than

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<v Speaker 2>I am to necessarily say, Hey, I need to carry

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<v Speaker 2>some type of weight from this. You know, post episode.

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<v Speaker 1>You're gonna think I'm totally weird here. But every time

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<v Speaker 1>I listen to an episode and with you sharing your

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<v Speaker 1>journey right now, I get this image of Jesus at

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<v Speaker 1>the well with the woman. If he would not have

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<v Speaker 1>taken the time to listen to her like you listen

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<v Speaker 1>to people, Look what we would have lost, you see

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<v Speaker 1>what I mean? Look at what we would have lost

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<v Speaker 1>if you would not have taken the time to talk

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<v Speaker 1>with him.

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<v Speaker 2>Goodness gracious? I mean? Is that like that could summarize

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<v Speaker 2>the whole purpose of the show, right It's to bring

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<v Speaker 2>the secular and the sacred together to listen to each other.

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<v Speaker 2>So listen more than we talk. You know, I've never

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<v Speaker 2>been convinced of anything coming from a place of anger

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<v Speaker 2>or fear or you know, counting. It's all experience and

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<v Speaker 2>it's all listening. For me, that's where I keep that's

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<v Speaker 2>where my mind changes, that's where my heart is convicted.

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus shows us. You know, the Christian faith right now,

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<v Speaker 2>in a lot of ways, is doing beautiful things, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's also known a lot for what it's against and

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<v Speaker 2>not much for what it's for. And one thing I

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<v Speaker 2>know it's for is to elevate the human story, to

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<v Speaker 2>bring together people who might disagree and just say, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>is there some commonality? Is their love flowing from this?

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<v Speaker 2>How do we love each other better? And that's what

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<v Speaker 2>I want to do here. I feel honored to have

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<v Speaker 2>the opportunity to get paid to do it. I feel

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<v Speaker 2>honored to have the opportunity to bring guests on and

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<v Speaker 2>that they share an hour of their life with me.

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<v Speaker 2>But ultimately, the whole purpose and the reason I would

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<v Speaker 2>even do it in the first place, is because I

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<v Speaker 2>think when we listen well, the human story can absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>change us and captivate us, and maybe if we allow it,

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<v Speaker 2>help us to become a little bit better as humans.

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<v Speaker 1>I kind of giggle when you when you said getting

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<v Speaker 1>paid for it, because right away, if we're gonna sit

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<v Speaker 1>here and we're gonna talk about Jesus and God, no, no,

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<v Speaker 1>that's your tithing coming back. That's the reason why you're

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<v Speaker 1>making it. Because you're tithing gave you the opportunity to

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<v Speaker 1>get what you've got, and now that you've got it,

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<v Speaker 1>you're utilizing it and you're taking down the four walls

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<v Speaker 1>of the church and you're bringing forward stories that help

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<v Speaker 1>heal people. That's your tithing at work.

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<v Speaker 2>It's I mean, and how cool if an opportunity is

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<v Speaker 2>it to be able to do that, right, Yes, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean it's so fun and uh and in today's world,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm not going to I'm not one to say, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>today is so much different than the last fifty years, honestly,

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<v Speaker 2>but in today's world, I do think it's easier than

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<v Speaker 2>ever to have better conversations than ever across you know, continence,

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<v Speaker 2>It's also more important than ever for us to stand

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<v Speaker 2>different cultures and different people and to hear these stories.

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<v Speaker 2>And now I can hear you know. I bet if

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<v Speaker 2>I spent two seconds, I could get on Google arrow

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<v Speaker 2>and find your story. And that's a wonderful opportunity. But

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<v Speaker 2>it needs to be done in a way that actually

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<v Speaker 2>pulls out and captivates us and allows us to learn

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<v Speaker 2>and listen more than it does just coming at us

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<v Speaker 2>in a way that feels like somebody's trying to pound

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<v Speaker 2>us over the face with their platform.

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<v Speaker 1>Please do not move. There's more with Ben Higgins coming

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<v Speaker 1>up next. The name of his podcast. If you can

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<v Speaker 1>hear me, you can find it everywhere. We're back with

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<v Speaker 1>Ben Higgins. I love those stories when they shock you

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<v Speaker 1>with something. For instance, like I was with the members

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<v Speaker 1>of the Sex Pistols and what they told me. They go,

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<v Speaker 1>you've got it all wrong. You're believing what you read.

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<v Speaker 1>You've got to walk through Ireland to see what these

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<v Speaker 1>buildings still look like. And I'm going, I did not know.

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<v Speaker 1>Until they share the story, we do not know. And

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<v Speaker 1>you're opening that door, man.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think they're right. That's wonderful that you

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<v Speaker 2>can pull that back and remember that. I mean, until

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<v Speaker 2>you've walked the shoes, until you've walked in the shoes,

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<v Speaker 2>until you've walked to the places, or until until somebody

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<v Speaker 2>unlayers and unveils the things that are complex iness world we.

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<v Speaker 1>Do not know.

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<v Speaker 2>And in goodness, there is many mornings or many afternoons

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<v Speaker 2>that I spend going I don't know if I actually

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<v Speaker 2>myself that way, you know. So it's a consistent journey,

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<v Speaker 2>it's constant, and it's wonderful, and it's one of life's

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<v Speaker 2>deep mysteries and deep opportunities. I think it is a

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<v Speaker 2>gift from the Lord above. I think community is a

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<v Speaker 2>gift from the Lord above. Uh. It is one of

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<v Speaker 2>the things that we should treasure and cultivate and dive into.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what we get to do on shows like this.

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<v Speaker 2>It's also the thing we get to do in our

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<v Speaker 2>everyday lives with our neighbors, the people we run into.

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<v Speaker 2>Is just to listen more than we talk, and to

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<v Speaker 2>hear about what people are up to. It is something

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<v Speaker 2>I hope to be able to do for the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of my life and not always maybe in a career.

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<v Speaker 2>But what I'm learning is I could probably do this

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<v Speaker 2>even without the microphone in front of me.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, Well you're right about that, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna give an example. And this is I call

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<v Speaker 1>this you just a word because I kept asking God,

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<v Speaker 1>I need to be in a church. God, I need

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<v Speaker 1>to be in a church. I know, I go to elevation.

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<v Speaker 1>I need to be something closer to the people. God,

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<v Speaker 1>give me a give and give me. He put me

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<v Speaker 1>in a damn grocery store. And oh yeah, And dude,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you could not ask for what real community is?

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<v Speaker 1>The rich, the poor, the old, the new, the broken,

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<v Speaker 1>the people that need to just laugh, they need to

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<v Speaker 1>have just someone to be with them. And I swear

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<v Speaker 1>to God I've been. You've been through my line. I

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<v Speaker 1>know you have, because your stories tell me exactly what

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<v Speaker 1>I hear almost every day.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, yeah, I mean I think that's like that

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<v Speaker 2>scene if we were doing it, if we were doing

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<v Speaker 2>it back and forth here, I'd say, tell me some

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<v Speaker 2>of those stories, right right, Like, what are some of

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<v Speaker 2>the ones that stand out to you? Why'd that one

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<v Speaker 2>stand out to you? How did that change you? Because

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<v Speaker 2>just by you opening yourself up to hear those stories,

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<v Speaker 2>now those stories are flowing in. They they've always been

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<v Speaker 2>around you, they've always been around us, you know. But

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<v Speaker 2>now in the mindset shifts it feels like these stories

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<v Speaker 2>just illuminating in a way and they stand out in

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<v Speaker 2>a way that maybe I was missing before. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but don't you, in a very proud and loving way,

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<v Speaker 1>feel like as a disciple of Christ, that you have

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<v Speaker 1>to make yourself vulnerable because you know that faith is

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<v Speaker 1>going to fill up those voice. But you can't get

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<v Speaker 1>to those stories until you become one of them. Or

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<v Speaker 1>like in martial arts, they always tell us, oh, so

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<v Speaker 1>what if you're a third degree black belt when you've

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<v Speaker 1>got a class in there that's all white belts, you

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<v Speaker 1>are a white belt, not a third degree black belt.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I think Paul talks about it a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of times here in the Bible. Yeah, that's like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the general idea of what Paul is saying

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<v Speaker 2>is like, hey, we need to try to relate with

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<v Speaker 2>those around us, and we need to become like and

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<v Speaker 2>then you you know, there's a list of likes from

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<v Speaker 2>there on out. And so for me, yes, I want

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<v Speaker 2>to become like the person that I'm being able to

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<v Speaker 2>talk to so that I can relate with them, so

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<v Speaker 2>that there's some place of comfort for them. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think when I know I'm thirty seven now. When I

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<v Speaker 2>was twenty three, I felt like there was a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>clear hierarchy in this world, and then I was at

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<v Speaker 2>the top. My ego is pretty big, you know. I

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<v Speaker 2>was pretty proud, prideful. At thirty seven, It's been consistently

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<v Speaker 2>clear to me that I am not at the top

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<v Speaker 2>of whatever food chain I thought I thought, And so

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<v Speaker 2>for me, it's more of a place of coming in

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<v Speaker 2>to just sit and relate because I know that nobody, nobody,

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<v Speaker 2>when it comes to how we are as humans, is

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<v Speaker 2>higher than the other. We're all in this together. We're

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<v Speaker 2>all trying to figure it out in different ways. Some

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<v Speaker 2>of us maybe have a sexier title to our name,

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<v Speaker 2>or some of us, you know, maybe have like made

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<v Speaker 2>a little more money or have a little more power.

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<v Speaker 2>That's all fine and good. But the thing that I

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<v Speaker 2>realize about humans when it comes to the human story

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<v Speaker 2>is that we're all, you know, taking one step at

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<v Speaker 2>a time, trying to figure it out, trying to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with our own insecurities and our own traumas, trying to heal.

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<v Speaker 2>And I just want to be there and be a

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<v Speaker 2>part of the process that is the walk towards, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the light at the end of the tunnel.

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<v Speaker 1>So Dan, do you allow yourself to be weird? Because,

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<v Speaker 1>according to Pete Holmes, you've got to reveal your weirdness.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to I don't know what my weird I know, honestly.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that was one thing that came out of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's Pete said it a few times, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's one thing that came out of that interview that

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<v Speaker 2>I questioned a lot of my walk that afternoon was

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<v Speaker 2>am I actually weird? Like? What do I have to

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<v Speaker 2>do to expose my true self is? In a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of ways, it's kind of what Pete studies when it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to the mystics and the Desert Fathers, and he

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<v Speaker 2>reads a lot of Richard Rore and Campbell, which is

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<v Speaker 2>like the shadow self, this self that is behind us,

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<v Speaker 2>that we that exists and that we know exists, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's a shadow of who we truly are. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>the real thing. It's a shadow of And so for

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<v Speaker 2>me it is a lot of work on, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>my shadow self and who my true self is and

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<v Speaker 2>trying to expose those things so that I can truly

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<v Speaker 2>say one day at the end of my life, Hey,

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<v Speaker 2>I was true to myself. I was true with people

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<v Speaker 2>around me. I was true to my Lord and Savior

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<v Speaker 2>and I did the best I could.

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<v Speaker 1>Man, you hit a subject on your podcast that really

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<v Speaker 1>need to be experienced by listeners, and that is when

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<v Speaker 1>when we think about, you know, some we lose something

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<v Speaker 1>in our life and we also a person. No, there's

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<v Speaker 1>more than that that we're losing in our life. It's

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<v Speaker 1>just that we don't pay attention to it. But you

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<v Speaker 1>you really do cover the new normal after loss. Oh

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<v Speaker 1>my god, it was like I got to hear that again.

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<v Speaker 1>I got it because there are so many easter eggs

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<v Speaker 1>inside that podcast where you're talking about that. It's like

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<v Speaker 1>you've got to listen to it several times to pick

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<v Speaker 1>up on everything that you guys share.

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<v Speaker 2>M Well, I mean, Aero, it's for so many I

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<v Speaker 2>think loss. I mean, if you just think about right now,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't want anybody to be, you know, going

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<v Speaker 2>too deep down to this, but if they if there

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<v Speaker 2>is a deep pain in your life, all of us

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<v Speaker 2>have experienced some pain. It oftentimes makes us feel very

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<v Speaker 2>alone and very isolated. So in a moment that actually

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<v Speaker 2>connects us to humans more than ever, which is pain.

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<v Speaker 2>Everybody's experienced some sort of pain, a thing that so

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<v Speaker 2>many of us could relate to. We're actually in a

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<v Speaker 2>place of pain ourselves. It's very isolating because we feel

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<v Speaker 2>extremely alone. So I think for what I'm learning not

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<v Speaker 2>only through the conversations being had, but through the processing

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<v Speaker 2>of it afterwards, is one of the greatest things we

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<v Speaker 2>can do to get back on track, is that vulnerability

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<v Speaker 2>in the midst of pain, to open up our stories

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<v Speaker 2>so that we're not sitting in a place afterwards of

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know how to move forward because I've not

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<v Speaker 2>met anybody else who has been in it before. It's

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<v Speaker 2>it's I think there. I could probably say pretty clearly

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<v Speaker 2>that most of that. One of the greatest things we

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<v Speaker 2>can conquer in life is the truth that you are

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<v Speaker 2>not alone, and that's true to all of us. There

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<v Speaker 2>are people around that love you, that care about you,

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<v Speaker 2>that have been in it before, no matter how you

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<v Speaker 2>know how bad it's gotten.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh man, this has been such a blessing. But twenty minutes,

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<v Speaker 1>Lord is just not enough with Ben to come back

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<v Speaker 1>to this show anytime in the future, because I swear

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<v Speaker 1>to God, you and I are walking a path that

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<v Speaker 1>looks identical. It's different, but we're in the art business

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<v Speaker 1>of listening, and I just got I'm just so proud

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<v Speaker 1>of you.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh I'm well, then, I'm proud of you too. Er,

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<v Speaker 2>thanks for having me. It's a big honor to be

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<v Speaker 2>here and I'm happy to do it today.

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<v Speaker 1>Will you be brilliant today?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, sir, I will you too,