Speaker 1: The goal was to create a place where you had
Speaker 1: the power of choice. That's the reason why we created
Speaker 1: Ero dot net A r r oe dot net, twenty
Speaker 1: different daily podcasts for you to say, yeah, no way, Oh,
Speaker 1: for the love of God, please, Oh there's no way
Speaker 1: I'm going there. Oh here's one that I might be
Speaker 1: interested in. See what I mean? We do it every
Speaker 1: day on Hulu, Netflix and everything else, including Disney Plus.
Speaker 1: So why not do it with your podcasting too, one place,
Speaker 1: Big variety, Aro dot net A r r oe dot Net.
Speaker 1: Enjoy your exploration. Hey man, thanks for coming back to
Speaker 1: the conversation. Let's do some podcrashing. For eighty four is
Speaker 1: with Ben Higgins from his podcast If you can hear me, Ben,
Speaker 1: I'm very fascinated with your process here in the way
Speaker 1: that you have discovered the art of listening or you've
Speaker 1: mastered it in the way that you're bringing real stories out.
Speaker 1: And I crave this stuff and I can't be the
Speaker 1: only one that consistently looks for real people with real stories.
Speaker 2: Well that's very nice, you know. I I've loved the
Speaker 2: process of listening to these stories, and I think that's why.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if I'd say I'm a
Speaker 2: master of it as very kind of you to say
Speaker 2: to me, But I think it's very easy to get
Speaker 2: engaged into these like this, these moments because humans are
Speaker 2: so interesting. When you actually pull back the layers and
Speaker 2: you actually hear you know who they are as people,
Speaker 2: and why they think the way they think, and what
Speaker 2: things from their past affect them, and what things that
Speaker 2: they're from their past don't affect them. The conversation has
Speaker 2: become something so illuminating and fascinating, and I see just
Speaker 2: like beauty and brilliance in them, and so it's fun
Speaker 2: for me to be able to be a part of them.
Speaker 1: Do you believe in the mantra they're not happy to
Speaker 1: see me, They're just happy that I see them.
Speaker 2: Ooh yeah, I think. I mean, I think that puts
Speaker 2: a lot of weight right on me. I think every
Speaker 2: human desires It's kind of the title of the podcast,
Speaker 2: right if you can hear me in a lot of
Speaker 2: In a lot of ways, you could change it to
Speaker 2: if you can see me. I think every human just
Speaker 2: wants to be known, and they want people to take
Speaker 2: the time to actually get to know them. They don't
Speaker 2: just want the Hey, how are you doing great to
Speaker 2: meet you. Let's talk about the business reports from today.
Speaker 2: Humans are craving this desire for the conversation to lead
Speaker 2: to a place of tell me about yourself, and then
Speaker 2: to go from there to the can you just tell
Speaker 2: me a little bit more, tell me a little bit more,
Speaker 2: tell me a little bit more. We're craving that because
Speaker 2: we just want to share our experiences in life with others.
Speaker 1: See, I wish I would have been in those rooms
Speaker 1: when you when you talked with them. And the reason
Speaker 1: why is because I think that when people start talking
Speaker 1: about their history, they stare at their feet. It's it's
Speaker 1: almost like saying, I got a pair of shoes if
Speaker 1: you want to try them on, because I'm going to
Speaker 1: share these stories with you. But you didn't experience them
Speaker 1: with me, and you bring that out to where it
Speaker 1: feels like you put on their damn shoes. Dude.
Speaker 2: Oh well, you know I would love for you to
Speaker 2: be there as well. First off, that would be a
Speaker 2: lot of fun. We could do this together. You know.
Speaker 2: I had an interview at the very beginning of this
Speaker 2: with I was on a reality television show. I ended
Speaker 2: up with somebody on that show for a few years
Speaker 2: we broke up and she married a country singer named
Speaker 2: Chris Lane. He was my very first guest on If
Speaker 2: You Can Hear Me, and I thought it was gonna
Speaker 2: be one of those moments where he was staring at
Speaker 2: his shoes and it was super awkward and super weird,
Speaker 2: and it was hard to kind of pull anything out,
Speaker 2: and it just felt like we were dancing around this
Speaker 2: massive conversation that we should be having that we just
Speaker 2: couldn't have because neither of us wanted to approach it.
Speaker 2: And that conversation ended up becoming so beautiful. Not only
Speaker 2: did we approach you know, the maybe the stuff that
Speaker 2: people would be shocked by, we got to digging even
Speaker 2: further to our lives and how beautiful it is that
Speaker 2: relationships end so that new ones can begin, and what
Speaker 2: that means for him and his family and me and
Speaker 2: my family. So, you know, I think for those moments
Speaker 2: of really that could be a little standoffish and awkward
Speaker 2: and maybe somebody's uncomfortable to be asked the questions that
Speaker 2: I really want to ask, it ends up becoming something
Speaker 2: beautiful when you actually can get to a place where
Speaker 2: these conversations are mattering, where you're digging in deep because
Speaker 2: I think that's where the magic happens.
Speaker 1: So how do you even show prep for this? Because
Speaker 1: they sound so natural, your questions, they sound like that
Speaker 1: it would actually come up in a conversation if you
Speaker 1: were sitting in the front seat of my car.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know. I show prep by doing a
Speaker 2: deep dive on each one of my guests, deep deep,
Speaker 2: deep dive. And then I always spend a little time
Speaker 2: in prayer, which which is important to me and my faith.
Speaker 2: But my final step is really and I've only been
Speaker 2: doing this with if you can hear me, I have
Speaker 2: a pop culture show and I are radio called almost famous.
Speaker 2: I don't do this for that. I've only been doing
Speaker 2: it for if you can hear me. I am doing
Speaker 2: this where I put the notes of the guests in
Speaker 2: front of me, and I kind of start to picture
Speaker 2: the conversation like people say picture your golf shot when
Speaker 2: you're golfing, like picture the shot you want to hit.
Speaker 2: I'm kind of picturing the conversation and picturing the questions
Speaker 2: I want to ask and almost getting a sense of, well,
Speaker 2: how would I feel somebody asked me that question, or
Speaker 2: what question would I want to be asked if this
Speaker 2: was my response to a story, and that's really helped
Speaker 2: me prep and it's also helped me build a deep
Speaker 2: sense of empathy towards the conversations. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But when you start digging that deep, though, ben, do
Speaker 1: you step into their lives? And then when that conversation
Speaker 1: is over, you go into post production blues because you've
Speaker 1: got to regain your strength. You just stepped into an
Speaker 1: area that wasn't you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I used to, and I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe you can help me guide me with this. I
Speaker 2: used to have these conversations on a previous show I
Speaker 2: did years ago, and I would feel very sad once
Speaker 2: the conversations would end, because you almost feel like you
Speaker 2: just build a new friend, and a lot of times
Speaker 2: it's like, I don't know if I'll ever talk to
Speaker 2: that friend again. And then if you try to be
Speaker 2: friends with every one of your guests, you're going to
Speaker 2: be exhausted by the end of the work, so you
Speaker 2: can't really do that either. That's not really an option here.
Speaker 2: So I've built boundaries, but there has been zero every
Speaker 2: I guess I should say it this way, every conversation
Speaker 2: I've had on if you can hear me when I
Speaker 2: sit and think about it afterwards, has impacted me and
Speaker 2: as I process the conversation, There's been takeaways that I
Speaker 2: could tell you from each episode, Like if we ran
Speaker 2: down the list of episodes so far, I can say
Speaker 2: that was my takeaway here. That's what moments stood out
Speaker 2: to me here, that's an issue like I remember, you know,
Speaker 2: disagreeing with this statement. Everyone has that, and so for me,
Speaker 2: I'm more curious to say, are more interested in the
Speaker 2: pursuit of what can I learn also from this than
Speaker 2: I am to necessarily say, Hey, I need to carry
Speaker 2: some type of weight from this. You know, post episode.
Speaker 1: You're gonna think I'm totally weird here. But every time
Speaker 1: I listen to an episode and with you sharing your
Speaker 1: journey right now, I get this image of Jesus at
Speaker 1: the well with the woman. If he would not have
Speaker 1: taken the time to listen to her like you listen
Speaker 1: to people, Look what we would have lost, you see
Speaker 1: what I mean? Look at what we would have lost
Speaker 1: if you would not have taken the time to talk
Speaker 1: with him.
Speaker 2: Goodness gracious? I mean? Is that like that could summarize
Speaker 2: the whole purpose of the show, right It's to bring
Speaker 2: the secular and the sacred together to listen to each other.
Speaker 2: So listen more than we talk. You know, I've never
Speaker 2: been convinced of anything coming from a place of anger
Speaker 2: or fear or you know, counting. It's all experience and
Speaker 2: it's all listening. For me, that's where I keep that's
Speaker 2: where my mind changes, that's where my heart is convicted.
Speaker 2: Jesus shows us. You know, the Christian faith right now,
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, is doing beautiful things, but
Speaker 2: it's also known a lot for what it's against and
Speaker 2: not much for what it's for. And one thing I
Speaker 2: know it's for is to elevate the human story, to
Speaker 2: bring together people who might disagree and just say, hey,
Speaker 2: is there some commonality? Is their love flowing from this?
Speaker 2: How do we love each other better? And that's what
Speaker 2: I want to do here. I feel honored to have
Speaker 2: the opportunity to get paid to do it. I feel
Speaker 2: honored to have the opportunity to bring guests on and
Speaker 2: that they share an hour of their life with me.
Speaker 2: But ultimately, the whole purpose and the reason I would
Speaker 2: even do it in the first place, is because I
Speaker 2: think when we listen well, the human story can absolutely
Speaker 2: change us and captivate us, and maybe if we allow it,
Speaker 2: help us to become a little bit better as humans.
Speaker 1: I kind of giggle when you when you said getting
Speaker 1: paid for it, because right away, if we're gonna sit
Speaker 1: here and we're gonna talk about Jesus and God, no, no,
Speaker 1: that's your tithing coming back. That's the reason why you're
Speaker 1: making it. Because you're tithing gave you the opportunity to
Speaker 1: get what you've got, and now that you've got it,
Speaker 1: you're utilizing it and you're taking down the four walls
Speaker 1: of the church and you're bringing forward stories that help
Speaker 1: heal people. That's your tithing at work.
Speaker 2: It's I mean, and how cool if an opportunity is
Speaker 2: it to be able to do that, right, Yes, I
Speaker 2: mean it's so fun and uh and in today's world,
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to I'm not one to say, oh,
Speaker 2: today is so much different than the last fifty years, honestly,
Speaker 2: but in today's world, I do think it's easier than
Speaker 2: ever to have better conversations than ever across you know, continence,
Speaker 2: It's also more important than ever for us to stand
Speaker 2: different cultures and different people and to hear these stories.
Speaker 2: And now I can hear you know. I bet if
Speaker 2: I spent two seconds, I could get on Google arrow
Speaker 2: and find your story. And that's a wonderful opportunity. But
Speaker 2: it needs to be done in a way that actually
Speaker 2: pulls out and captivates us and allows us to learn
Speaker 2: and listen more than it does just coming at us
Speaker 2: in a way that feels like somebody's trying to pound
Speaker 2: us over the face with their platform.
Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Ben Higgins coming
Speaker 1: up next. The name of his podcast. If you can
Speaker 1: hear me, you can find it everywhere. We're back with
Speaker 1: Ben Higgins. I love those stories when they shock you
Speaker 1: with something. For instance, like I was with the members
Speaker 1: of the Sex Pistols and what they told me. They go,
Speaker 1: you've got it all wrong. You're believing what you read.
Speaker 1: You've got to walk through Ireland to see what these
Speaker 1: buildings still look like. And I'm going, I did not know.
Speaker 1: Until they share the story, we do not know. And
Speaker 1: you're opening that door, man.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they're right. That's wonderful that you
Speaker 2: can pull that back and remember that. I mean, until
Speaker 2: you've walked the shoes, until you've walked in the shoes,
Speaker 2: until you've walked to the places, or until until somebody
Speaker 2: unlayers and unveils the things that are complex iness world we.
Speaker 1: Do not know.
Speaker 2: And in goodness, there is many mornings or many afternoons
Speaker 2: that I spend going I don't know if I actually
Speaker 2: myself that way, you know. So it's a consistent journey,
Speaker 2: it's constant, and it's wonderful, and it's one of life's
Speaker 2: deep mysteries and deep opportunities. I think it is a
Speaker 2: gift from the Lord above. I think community is a
Speaker 2: gift from the Lord above. Uh. It is one of
Speaker 2: the things that we should treasure and cultivate and dive into.
Speaker 2: And that's what we get to do on shows like this.
Speaker 2: It's also the thing we get to do in our
Speaker 2: everyday lives with our neighbors, the people we run into.
Speaker 2: Is just to listen more than we talk, and to
Speaker 2: hear about what people are up to. It is something
Speaker 2: I hope to be able to do for the rest
Speaker 2: of my life and not always maybe in a career.
Speaker 2: But what I'm learning is I could probably do this
Speaker 2: even without the microphone in front of me.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Well you're right about that, and I'm
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give an example. And this is I call
Speaker 1: this you just a word because I kept asking God,
Speaker 1: I need to be in a church. God, I need
Speaker 1: to be in a church. I know, I go to elevation.
Speaker 1: I need to be something closer to the people. God,
Speaker 1: give me a give and give me. He put me
Speaker 1: in a damn grocery store. And oh yeah, And dude,
Speaker 1: I mean, you could not ask for what real community is?
Speaker 1: The rich, the poor, the old, the new, the broken,
Speaker 1: the people that need to just laugh, they need to
Speaker 1: have just someone to be with them. And I swear
Speaker 1: to God I've been. You've been through my line. I
Speaker 1: know you have, because your stories tell me exactly what
Speaker 1: I hear almost every day.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah, I mean I think that's like that
Speaker 2: scene if we were doing it, if we were doing
Speaker 2: it back and forth here, I'd say, tell me some
Speaker 2: of those stories, right right, Like, what are some of
Speaker 2: the ones that stand out to you? Why'd that one
Speaker 2: stand out to you? How did that change you? Because
Speaker 2: just by you opening yourself up to hear those stories,
Speaker 2: now those stories are flowing in. They they've always been
Speaker 2: around you, they've always been around us, you know. But
Speaker 2: now in the mindset shifts it feels like these stories
Speaker 2: just illuminating in a way and they stand out in
Speaker 2: a way that maybe I was missing before. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but don't you, in a very proud and loving way,
Speaker 1: feel like as a disciple of Christ, that you have
Speaker 1: to make yourself vulnerable because you know that faith is
Speaker 1: going to fill up those voice. But you can't get
Speaker 1: to those stories until you become one of them. Or
Speaker 1: like in martial arts, they always tell us, oh, so
Speaker 1: what if you're a third degree black belt when you've
Speaker 1: got a class in there that's all white belts, you
Speaker 1: are a white belt, not a third degree black belt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think Paul talks about it a
Speaker 2: lot of times here in the Bible. Yeah, that's like,
Speaker 2: you know, the general idea of what Paul is saying
Speaker 2: is like, hey, we need to try to relate with
Speaker 2: those around us, and we need to become like and
Speaker 2: then you you know, there's a list of likes from
Speaker 2: there on out. And so for me, yes, I want
Speaker 2: to become like the person that I'm being able to
Speaker 2: talk to so that I can relate with them, so
Speaker 2: that there's some place of comfort for them. And I
Speaker 2: think when I know I'm thirty seven now. When I
Speaker 2: was twenty three, I felt like there was a pretty
Speaker 2: clear hierarchy in this world, and then I was at
Speaker 2: the top. My ego is pretty big, you know. I
Speaker 2: was pretty proud, prideful. At thirty seven, It's been consistently
Speaker 2: clear to me that I am not at the top
Speaker 2: of whatever food chain I thought I thought, And so
Speaker 2: for me, it's more of a place of coming in
Speaker 2: to just sit and relate because I know that nobody, nobody,
Speaker 2: when it comes to how we are as humans, is
Speaker 2: higher than the other. We're all in this together. We're
Speaker 2: all trying to figure it out in different ways. Some
Speaker 2: of us maybe have a sexier title to our name,
Speaker 2: or some of us, you know, maybe have like made
Speaker 2: a little more money or have a little more power.
Speaker 2: That's all fine and good. But the thing that I
Speaker 2: realize about humans when it comes to the human story
Speaker 2: is that we're all, you know, taking one step at
Speaker 2: a time, trying to figure it out, trying to deal
Speaker 2: with our own insecurities and our own traumas, trying to heal.
Speaker 2: And I just want to be there and be a
Speaker 2: part of the process that is the walk towards, you know,
Speaker 2: the light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 1: So Dan, do you allow yourself to be weird? Because,
Speaker 1: according to Pete Holmes, you've got to reveal your weirdness.
Speaker 2: I want to I don't know what my weird I know, honestly.
Speaker 2: I think that was one thing that came out of
Speaker 2: you know, it's Pete said it a few times, and
Speaker 2: it's one thing that came out of that interview that
Speaker 2: I questioned a lot of my walk that afternoon was
Speaker 2: am I actually weird? Like? What do I have to
Speaker 2: do to expose my true self is? In a lot
Speaker 2: of ways, it's kind of what Pete studies when it
Speaker 2: comes to the mystics and the Desert Fathers, and he
Speaker 2: reads a lot of Richard Rore and Campbell, which is
Speaker 2: like the shadow self, this self that is behind us,
Speaker 2: that we that exists and that we know exists, but
Speaker 2: it's a shadow of who we truly are. It's not
Speaker 2: the real thing. It's a shadow of And so for
Speaker 2: me it is a lot of work on, you know,
Speaker 2: my shadow self and who my true self is and
Speaker 2: trying to expose those things so that I can truly
Speaker 2: say one day at the end of my life, Hey,
Speaker 2: I was true to myself. I was true with people
Speaker 2: around me. I was true to my Lord and Savior
Speaker 2: and I did the best I could.
Speaker 1: Man, you hit a subject on your podcast that really
Speaker 1: need to be experienced by listeners, and that is when
Speaker 1: when we think about, you know, some we lose something
Speaker 1: in our life and we also a person. No, there's
Speaker 1: more than that that we're losing in our life. It's
Speaker 1: just that we don't pay attention to it. But you
Speaker 1: you really do cover the new normal after loss. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, it was like I got to hear that again.
Speaker 1: I got it because there are so many easter eggs
Speaker 1: inside that podcast where you're talking about that. It's like
Speaker 1: you've got to listen to it several times to pick
Speaker 1: up on everything that you guys share.
Speaker 2: M Well, I mean, Aero, it's for so many I
Speaker 2: think loss. I mean, if you just think about right now,
Speaker 2: and I don't want anybody to be, you know, going
Speaker 2: too deep down to this, but if they if there
Speaker 2: is a deep pain in your life, all of us
Speaker 2: have experienced some pain. It oftentimes makes us feel very
Speaker 2: alone and very isolated. So in a moment that actually
Speaker 2: connects us to humans more than ever, which is pain.
Speaker 2: Everybody's experienced some sort of pain, a thing that so
Speaker 2: many of us could relate to. We're actually in a
Speaker 2: place of pain ourselves. It's very isolating because we feel
Speaker 2: extremely alone. So I think for what I'm learning not
Speaker 2: only through the conversations being had, but through the processing
Speaker 2: of it afterwards, is one of the greatest things we
Speaker 2: can do to get back on track, is that vulnerability
Speaker 2: in the midst of pain, to open up our stories
Speaker 2: so that we're not sitting in a place afterwards of
Speaker 2: I don't know how to move forward because I've not
Speaker 2: met anybody else who has been in it before. It's
Speaker 2: it's I think there. I could probably say pretty clearly
Speaker 2: that most of that. One of the greatest things we
Speaker 2: can conquer in life is the truth that you are
Speaker 2: not alone, and that's true to all of us. There
Speaker 2: are people around that love you, that care about you,
Speaker 2: that have been in it before, no matter how you
Speaker 2: know how bad it's gotten.
Speaker 1: Oh man, this has been such a blessing. But twenty minutes,
Speaker 1: Lord is just not enough with Ben to come back
Speaker 1: to this show anytime in the future, because I swear
Speaker 1: to God, you and I are walking a path that
Speaker 1: looks identical. It's different, but we're in the art business
Speaker 1: of listening, and I just got I'm just so proud
Speaker 1: of you.
Speaker 2: Oh I'm well, then, I'm proud of you too. Er,
Speaker 2: thanks for having me. It's a big honor to be
Speaker 2: here and I'm happy to do it today.
Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2: Okay, sir, I will you too,