Speaker 1: Welcome back to Alice World. I have a super special guest. Oh,
I love your glasses. His name is Thomas from Paranoid American.
Speaker 2: Welcome, Thank you. I feel very welcome. I appreciate you
having me.
Speaker 1: Here nice and I love your co hosts over there
Slimer dancing in the background. He's given the Slimer vibes.
Speaker 2: But it helps in case the stream ever freezes. You
can tell if I've just gone very stoic, or if
like we're still broadcasting.
Speaker 1: Well, I can see you're on the Neon train too,
because we love the Neon. We've got all that. But
I want to tell you guys a story before we
get into it tonight. I have actually met Thomas, and
we have had a curse on our household since that day,
not believe. So we tried to go to an event
called Bohemian Grove where Jay was supposed to sing all
his cringe course songs and get to know lots of
other cool podcasters and do his comedy thing. We were
so excited and he got sicker over the day. We
drove all the way to Tiafa. You know, I said,
I'll drive you there and you do your thing, and
we can leave right away, and he's like I'll try,
you know, like he was being a trooper. But we
got there and I walk in and I see these
cool occult little books and I'm like, this kind of
takes me back because it was like a merch table
that you would see at a conference, like an old
conspiracy conference or something, you know, oh yeah, And I
was like, yeah, these look cool. I'm and again, and
so I bought him and I'm flipping through and I
go to the QR code that comes with those, and
I go to your website, Paranoid American, and I'm trying
to take care of him, but I'm so interested in
what's going on, and I'm like, I see a cult
book club. I'm like, cool, I love occult books. You know,
that's my whole shtick, you know, that's our thing we
do on rock fins. And click on the first one
and it's mind Control and I'm like, oh me, you know.
And then his other play was like Occult Disney, and
I'm like, did we just become best friends?
Speaker 2: Absolutely right?
Speaker 1: Occult book Club, Fritz Springmeer, Occult Disney. I mean, you're
speaking my language. So I was like, I got to
get this person like old school occult pamphlets. So I
am saving all my energy. I didn't want to cancel
on because I was too excited. But we have had
flus since that day that I met you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, welcome to Bohemian Grove.
Speaker 1: Thanks. So let's just talk about your background for a second,
because I know my audience is gonna go crazy over
your channel. Seems like you've hit the ground running on
all of this stuff, and so just tell us a
little bit. How did you get so smart? What's up
with that?
Speaker 2: Uh? Just the nerd. I grew up with a lot
of bullies, you know, in my area, and I ended
up getting My mom was a public school teacher, and
this was back when Steve Jobs was giving apples to
educators and filling them up with schools, especially in the Northeast.
Like I grew up in upstate New York, and I
ended up basically just teaching myself how to program when
I was I don't know, like eight or nine, and
slowly just like started getting better and better at that.
And at some point I was introduced to working in
audio and video and like post production, and I downloaded
a bunch of pirated versions of three d Studio Max,
like version two or whatever, and I was absolutely fascinated
by this concept of like just using pure energy, like
no physical matter is moving anywhere at all, but you're
creating music and movies and animation and pictures and stuff,
and it just like fascinated me endlessly. So I kind
of knew, I guess lucky real early on that I
just wanted to do digital art creation for like the
rest of my life. So I've just been going as
hard in the paint as I could ever since then.
I joined the military right out of school to do technology,
to do programming, and that kind of changed the entire
course of my life. It gave me like I was
already a little bit conspiratorial minded because I grew up
when X files was big. A lot of the music
I listened to it was all about illuminati and don't
trust the government, and I didn't really know what a
lot of that meant. My favorite album was one from
Kill Army called Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars. I had
no idea what that actually meant at the time. I
just really liked the concept, so I kind of had
all the ingredients. And then once I joined the military
and got a taste of like big boy real world
stuff that it started solidifying, and then it was like, oh,
maybe some of these weird conspiracy fictional sounding things that
I found novel, maybe there's something to that. So that
was sort of like the birth of my origin story.
I had a long road after that. I ended up
getting boosted out of the military because I didn't want
to take one of their experimental things that they were pushing.
This is in two thousand and two or two thousand
and three, and immediately from there I got a job
at Disney.
Speaker 1: Yes, so worlds are converging and realities are collassing here.
So you've gone from an avid reader as a child
to conspiracy UFO. Like you mentioned, X files were big
X files nerds. That's an opener for a lot of people,
like what is going on out there? They just had
a meaning about u AP's and UFOs yesterday, like a
congressional right in Congress. Yeah, So I feel like every
time something goes wrong, they try to pull out aliens
and everyone like, we don't care. If there's no real
aliens running around, like, we don't do I stop to
go to work tomorrow, then I don't care?
Speaker 2: Right, is my mortgage still do. That's a really big one. Also,
whoever is planning blue Beam out there, like you guys
missed your shot, Like the nineteen nineties, maybe the early
two thousands, that would have been the absolute best time
to do it all. And now I think we're just
a little bit saturated, a little bit worn out, and
also almost expecting it. Like after you see the Tupac hologram,
then you see an alien, A lot of people are
gonna be like, wait a minute, is just another Tupac
thing at Coachella?
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So unless there's actual like UFO is floating
above the capitals, I don't think anyone's gonna care. But
we keep on talking about aliens because we know that's
one of the sy ops that they like to play
a lot.
Speaker 2: Right, And they've also done a really good job at
the same way that politics works. We've got like these
two main parties to go with. They're also sort of
defining what an alien, what would constitute an alien, or
what constitutes like an actual UFO. They keep showing you
light orbs or maybe it's the Little Gray Men, or
maybe it's the Reptilians or whatever, but it's just these
very convenient ways to automatically group everything into certain categories.
And it also, my opinion, is just a way of
like planting these ideas as well, so now when someone
does have an experience, they'll lean into the template that
was kind of provided for them.
Speaker 1: So how did you find working at Disney? I see
you have at least fifty or between fifty and sixty
Disney movie reviews, right.
Speaker 2: That was something that I did a show with Sam
Tripoli on tinfoil Hat, and we broke down a whole
bunch of occult Disney stuff, Walt Disney's upbringing in Dame Malay,
which is sort of like a cup Scouts for Mason's
type thing, and then really Fantasia is one of my
favorite things to break down. And from that, I linked
up with someone that had heard the episode, Mac Comgy's,
and he's been doing podcasting for like five or six
years that I was brand new, didn't have any of
my own shows. I had guessed like once or twice,
and even before then I'd have to like prep myself
mentally for a couple hours to not be frazzled. So
I figured this would be a great opportunity to just
practice and practice and figure out the format and figure
out almost toast master style, try and get all the
likes and ums and butts as far away as the
normal conversations I can. And over time, the original premise
just kind of resonated with me a lot because we
decided to watch every single theatrical Disney animated release from
Snow White up until right now. I'm watching Valiant, which
I think is like two thousand and five, two thousand
and six.
Speaker 3: OK, after all that, Like, yeah, I mean, honestly, I
would I have more like trauma from just having to
go to work and deal with some of the Disney politics.
Speaker 2: Watching a Disney movie doesn't really scar me. Again, maybe
going through the military too, like I helped raise my
barrier for what trauma actually constitutes.
Speaker 1: So, speaking of trauma, did you discover like your first
occult book that I saw on your playlist was Fritz
Springmeier I Lluminati My Control. That's a classic, you know,
that's like one of the text books of what we
talk about, right, So did you discover that before you
were working at Disneyland or after?
Speaker 2: Oh, way way before I found I think the first
a cult book I ever found was Secret Teachings of
all ages by Manley Palmer Hall. And this was on
one of those like Sacred text dot org type sites
even in the mid late nineties, or like whale dot
two one of those, and I remember every time it
would come up, it would just blow my mind because
it would break down. I liked reading mythology. My mom
was huge into Greek and Roman mythology, so I kind
of grew up with a lot of those stories, but it
was always like these huge marble statues in the sky
doing these things that weren't as relatable. And once I
discovered Manley Palmer Hall, it brought it like right in
front of my face, and it almost made them like
living and like the symbolism. All of a sudden I understood,
or at least I started to get a glimpse of
like why is that scorpion there? Why is he stabbing
that bowl? You know what? Like why is that funny
hat on his head that he's dressed up like the Smurfs?
And once I started realizing, oh, this is all encoded information,
I kind of just went down a deep rabbit hole
of like, okay, what else is on this site that
like all the sites that keep showing me the Secret
Teachings of all Ages and a course on there you'd
find Fritz Springmeyer. So I think I came across him
and the Illuminatous Trilogy somewhere in like the year two thousand,
two thousand and one. I had just gotten into my
actual like a listment, my assignment in the military, and
it was weird because we had also just experienced nine
to eleven. And I think that one kind of set
this is one of those big things that set me
over the cliff in the conspiracy world, is because when
nine to eleven happened, I was in boot camp and
we were just doing regular drills and stuff out on
the mat and they bring us all inside and they
give us flash lights, and they have us stand out
on the roads and like get into like the halt
who goes there sort of a posture holding their little
flashlights and wearing like safety vests, and no one had
any idea what was going on, and it was It
wasn't for I think another two weeks and somebody's parents
managed to write something that they didn't read or they
didn't notice, and then somebody, hey, I think like something
happened in like the outside world. And once that rumor
started making its rounds around all of the trainees. Eventually
the Tis brought everyone in and said, yeah, there's been
this whole attack and everything, but I just remember it
that that moment and the rest of this basic training,
but how easy it was to keep somebody in a bubble,
and also that the outside world had all gone through
this cathartic like reuniting and we're all Americans, we love
each other and we're stronger. And I didn't go through
any of that, Like I was just tired and doing
sit ups and running that entire time with no inclination.
So that that was kind of when I maybe thought
back on the Fritz, Springwire and some of like the
MK Ultra stuff, like any connections.
Speaker 1: Like they're trying to break me down and rebuild.
Speaker 2: Me one hundred percent. The very first night in boot camp,
as soon as I got it, this is like the
most vivid memory I've got of all boot camp. But
the first night, as everyone's kind of entering this room,
the first time, they're wearing their civilian clothes, they got
their crazy hair and stuff. Think I had like a
huge afro at the time. Everyone's babies, or at least
they are completely oblivious to what's going on. And they
had three tis sort of like as a checkpoint right
as people come in, screaming at whoever the next person
to walk through the door was. But I kind of
like slunk away and I went to the back of
the room. I sort of unpacking my stuff. So I
just kind of was observing, And every single new recruit
that walked in the door, one guy would yell at
him to get in the shower. One guy would yell
at him to like go and unpack his stuff, and
then another one would tell him to like put his
clothes on or something. So like the first guy like,
get in the shower, take your clothes off, blah blah blah,
and the second guy's like, what are you doing, Put
your shirt back on, go over there. And I realized
that they're not actually giving them commands that they're expecting
them to follow, like they're obviously just do a giving
them all these conflicting instructions to see how they handle
it and which decision they make. And so many people
went into the bathroom and took a shower with their
all of their clothes on because they could they couldn't decide, like, well,
I don't want to ignore this guy yelling at me,
so I'll kind of do what all three of them
are saying. And I could kind of see how every
person was reacting a little bit different to that. And
all I was thinking the whole time was like, Oh,
this is that Fritz Springmeyer stuff, This is that mk
ult programming. I get it now, but you like, it
was hard to visualize without going through that experience and
seeing it happen on like a massive scale.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting because on the cover of the book
that I gave you, there's a princess and a soldier,
and so what we were noticing, like back in that
era was like princess warrior programming, right right, yeah, but
like all the girls were pink and princess and all
the boys were like military. Like it's not that way
anymore because we've changed it through androgyny. But when I
was like researching and writing that, if you would go
to target all everything in the girls, I would be
like pink, princess, and everything in the boys would be
super like military or dinosaurs, just everything violent. Not that
there's anything wrong with militaries or whatever, but it's just
like there's only two choices back then.
Speaker 2: My favorite example of that one was that a lot
of the toys were basically the exact same toy. They
would just make a girl version of boy versions. So
like Polly Pocket was really big and it was all
princess and clamshells and pink and pastels. And then there
was one called Mighty Max, which was exactly the same
as what Polly Pocket was. Yeah, but it was like
a guy that was going into these skull shaped caverns
and chains and actions. Yeah, I remember that that whole
sort of like I guess, you know, false binary stuff
that was getting pushed. And again it's in my mind,
I guess the way that I've brought up, But it's
just always seeing how having people to label themselves and
put themselves in buckets is so convenient for everyone but them, right,
Like it makes a convenient for your jobs and your
society and your government and everything. And that's just another
version of that.
Speaker 1: Well, we were talking about that in relation to consumerism,
and it just made me remember my buddy and kid's sister,
right right, Who would think that a little boy wants
to carry around a life sized doll with him? But
you have my buddy and kid's sister.
Speaker 2: That's kind of where we got Chucky from. I think.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 2: It was inherently creepy, although My Pet Monster I think
bridged both of those guys, like it bridged the gender gap,
and I think he was universally cool.
Speaker 1: My pet mons remember that. And trolls yep.
Speaker 2: And there was like little goblin things, moglins or something
that you would wear in your hand. Yeah, make them talk.
Speaker 1: What are the balls that you throw with the angry faces?
Speaker 2: Mad balls? Yeah, exactly see. And and this is I
guess another that I'd like to go on is the
consumerism like program. Thus but like the nostalgia is hard
to separate from the consumerism.
Speaker 1: And they had they created us to be occultist almost
because of magic and Harry Potter and like all of
these Disney I mean obviously they're training children who are
intelligent and creative to be interested, and I think all
those types of people are drawn to the occult And
you're making you're cacking me up because look at the cover,
Like don't these look like little mad balls? And like, uh,
my monster, my pet Monsters.
Speaker 2: And I got to give a shout out to wan
Ayala of the one on one podcast who basically came
up with the idea of doing this occult this Monday,
and this issue that you're holding up here was his baby.
He's been trying to write a book on monkeylus for
so long and this is sort of the first version.
This is like the the entry point to what eventually
will be a large, expansive book. And that guy on
the cover, it was actually sort of an inspiration of
like a Pokemon kind of theme, like you got to
catch them all. But that's Count Coufstein, who's the one
guy that's in the Guinness Book of World Records for
owning the most number of homuncula, which is one of
those weird facts that doesn't sound real but you look
it up and I don't know if it's fanciful or well,
but that's Coufstein and those are his his twelve homunkey Lily.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I had to buy I was looking for more.
I'm like, there's only four, but I wanted the whole
set and I had to get it just because of
I love stuff like this.
Speaker 2: I grew up too resigns. I remember a lot of
or zines. I don't know what the funciages and anymore,
but in like the punk scene, and a lot of
people were putting it and it was usually like anarchist
stuff and Emma Goldman quotes, but I love that whole premise.
I also one of my first jobs when I was
still in school was at a Kinko's, back when it
was just a coffee or just a coffee shop and
they didn't do FedEx or any of that stuff. And
I kind of got to know all the different locals
that were printing all their own zines because they would
come into Kinko's to get all that stuff done. So
that was another fascinating aspect again of taking these raw
ideas and then like somehow manifesting it into physical form
now and spreading it around. I don't know if they
made any waves with it, but I'm just a concept of, Wow,
you had this crazy idea last week, and now you're
printing out two hundred of these and you're just going
to like pass them out and put them in places.
So that was really inspiring. That like kind of shaped
me a little bit.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you can see my books were inspired by
the same idea, like underground magazines and just weird stuff
and Church of the SubGenius.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, all hailslock, yeah, all that.
Speaker 1: So these are yeah, these were super cool. So what
did you notice in your time at Disneyland? Was there
any so I'm sure you were doing a lot of
recon right looking at Club thirty three and looking for
signs and symbols. I know every time you would go there,
it was all about just finding the hidden Easter eggs.
And we found a bunch and I'm thinking of like
the little compass and square on the box on us,
that flubride, that Splash Mountain or Thunder Mountain Railroad.
Speaker 2: That's it Son Mountain.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Did you get to like see a lot of
the park or where? She's kind of like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know I did so. So I was at
Walt Disney World in Orlando for ten years and I
worked in what they called the Royo Disney Production Facility,
and this is where they did a lot of the
post production, a lot of the archival, a lot of
the tape stuff, and it was connected to the animation building.
But at this point the animation building almost everything had
moved over to the West Coast and Burbank and they were,
you know, using a lot of that from cal Arts
although Orlando Studio did do a whole bunch more feature
film and then a lot of the direct to video
type stuff. But one of the cool things is that
since I worked on the studio on property, I could
just lead. Like sometimes I would just be a little
bit stir crazier, bored we had a long meeting, I
could just walk out the building and go and ride
a few of the roller coasters. Rock and roller Coaster
was literally like a two minute walk from my desk,
like once I got out of the building, so I
would just go there. We would do Tower Tear constantly.
I could probably have gone to all the other ones,
but it would have been a lot longer of a
walk and a wait. But yeah, like I kind of
lived in the park for at least five or six
years until it got busier and the novelty wore off,
And yeah, my eyes were kind of always open to
all this. Although I kind of find that the hidden
symbolism was definitely deeper in the adaptations and some of
the stuff that gets left in the cutting room floor
on a lot of like the theatrical releases. The two
craziest things, like the most elationis I guess that I
experienced while like actually working there, and like park related
one which might sound a little bit mild, but somebody
on tower or tear I believe had a heart attack.
It was like one of the workers and they died
while they were working the ride. Like they didn't get
trapped by it or anything. They just had like a
medical issue. But what had happened was indicative of kind
of a deeper sort of mystery.
Speaker 1: Go ahead, do you want to hear my tower terror story?
Speaker 2: Please? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay. So I used to be a tour guide in
Los Angeles and like the Southwest, and we would take coaches,
you know, just Las Vegas or wherever, and a lot
of my work was like at Disneyland in LA taking
teens to Disneyland, and I would just you know, you
could release them for the day and give them their
lunch voucher and then you have eight hours or ten
hours to just wait around and then meet them back
at the bus. Right, So I'd end up, like you
just wandering around the park, like get a go see
a movie. I knew, like where to catch a nap.
I knew, you know, like the only place serves alcohol.
I knew. We would just like go to the Grand
Adventure Hotel a lot and just hang out in there
because it's very comfortable. But anyways, so but I didn't
know any of the conspiracy like mind control. I knew
that they were heavily into witchcraft, and I was kind
of like about that. But so, yeah, I'd hang out
with Disney. And then the first time I went to
Disney World, I had already read all the mind control
stuff and so this is a whole new world, right,
It's not like fun Disney anymore. And we get on
the Tower of Terror and we already had to like
give our thumbprint to get in. So now they're just
introducing biometrics and they're introducing like the passes that you
can go on a certain time. And we had been
talking like.
Speaker 2: So you're talking this is sometime after twenty twelve, I think, yeah, so.
Speaker 1: And I'm just super new to like Fritz Springmire and
the mind control thing and the Disney thing, and I'm like,
and we're kind of public, and I'm like, they could
probably try to kill us, you know. So I'm already
paranoid American going into our terror. And we get to
the top and it like breaks like right before the
drop it's like cluck clunk, and they're like fire box
down like a rarer runner and just and people are screaming,
the kids are crying, and we're like dangling there because
it was broken. And then I guess they just had
to like put it back on a different track and
go down slowly. So we didn't actually do the terror
drop because it broke before we could do that. But
we were like, no more roller coasters at Disney.
Speaker 2: Uh, you got the pair, you just didn't get the
drop part exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no fun, but we got like the paranoid like
are they could they just get rid of us? And
I don't know. It's funny.
Speaker 2: Well that that ride was particularly complicated for that because
they made Power of Terrors so that if you wrote
it five times in one day, you would never really
be able to predict when it was going to drop.
That part. It wasn't random, but it it was pre
selected from a whole list of different timings where it
would like fake you out a little bit and then
fake you out again and then drop, or it would
just straight drop the first time and then kind of stop.
So I had all these different programs. But that was
a known issue, is that I guess between all the
different timings or whatever relays they had to make that happen,
sometimes it would cause an issue. But so that that
was the ride that I rode the most. I mean,
I've I was on that thing hundreds and hundreds of times.
It never got boring for me. I always loved it.
And that's that was the story that I heard, is
that one of the operators had a medical issue and
he basically passed. But what Disney did is that, at
least in Disney World, which makes it unique from Disneyland,
like in Orlando, they sort of owned this whole area
like it's They've got their own police force, they've got
their own ambulances, their fire station, everything. They don't need
any of the city Orlando or any of the municipalities
outside to intervene, and they kind of prefer it that way.
And what would happen though, is if someone got hurt
like this guy that that passed, they wouldn't necessarily declare
him dead until they got him outside of Disney property
and then bring them into like Orlando proper or one
of the surrounding areas and then declare that they were,
you know, they had passed and This was a convenient
way of Disney being able to say, you know, no
one has ever died on property, or that we've got
a certain like a like a no incident count and
it kind of remind I don't know if you've ever
seen the show The Wire or a lot of these
like cop shows, but a common theme is that if
they find the floater, if they find like a body
in a lake or something, they'll just kind of let
it drift to like another part of the county or
like over some jurisdictional lines. So it's like, Okay, not
our now, we don't have to solve the murder. We
can report it now, we don't have to solve it,
just to keep that county's numbers low. And that was
one of the first things I was like, wait a minute,
that could definitely be manipulated a little bit. You know,
if you can, you know, and you've got all of
your own in house everything security and paramedics and everything,
anything that happens in the park really can stay in
the park and you can kind of push it off
to the side. So that was one of them. The
other one some of them it just feels like boring
dispelling rumors but I've heard so many rumors about the
crazy rituals that happen in the tunnels under the Magic Kingdom, right,
like that this is where they're sacrificing people, and so
that the tunnels were a dangerous place. But it was.
It was mostly because there were a few reasons. The
main one is that a lot of the people that
are the character actors are overworked, sort of teenagers or
early twenty year old like college kids. And the way
that Disney this is kind of some cool inside baseball guests,
but the way that Disney coordinates, they make it so
that if Mickey Mouse is in the park somewhere like
in the Magic Kingdom, or he's in Tomorrowland or he's
in you know, Future Land or something, that he won't
be present in la and he won't be president in Paris,
and he won't be around in Disney Hong Kong either.
So they make it so that even if someone were
taking a picture, you couldn't be like, wait a minute,
how is Mickey in these two places at one time?
But what happened is that once they would go into
these tunnels and leave the public view, now they can
come up in any of the other parks. But this
also meant it was on such a strict schedule because
they had to coordinate with what the other characters were
doing in other parts of the world. It's not like
you could be like, wait, wait, give me an extra five.
It doesn't work. So you'd have people running full speed
in these tunnels, which were completely dark. They're wearing costumes
you can't see well anyways, and people would be knocking
each other out and like smashing their faces together and
losing teeth and like getting seriously, seriously injured constantly. So
there were times you'd see someone erupt from these tunnels,
like bleeding and looking like something marrible had happened to them.
Speaker 1: Okay, what you're saying is they're coordinating internationally what characters
are coming out.
Speaker 2: They are supposed to. Yeah, definitely Inner Park, but they're
supposed to be coordinating it even like internationally in some cases.
Because this is another weird thing about Disney is if
you notice, until very recently, but no one was allowed
to have beards or goates. They had very strict military
style regulation. It was weird because I had just left
the military and went into Disney, and as I'm reading
some of the like the employee guidelines. It's like, this
is exactly the same. And there's a reason for that.
That's because Walt disney World. It was built by the
same architects and the same blueprints, the guys that they
would hire to do military bases. Because Walt kind of
realized how large of an operation this was, so he
had the park itself designed like a military installation.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's so crazy. So you're working at Disneyland and
you're hearing all these rumors and you said rituals and tunnels.
Speaker 2: I've heard that was That's one of the most common
ones that I think I heard from like outside people
that had never really been behind the scenes or worked
at Disney, was that they're doing all these crazy rituals
under the tunnels, right under the you know, the Magic Kingdom,
the Big Castle and everything. That was one of the
most common.
Speaker 1: They would they would do that. Do you know who
they're rumored to have sold disney World two or is
looking into buying it.
Speaker 2: Recently?
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, who, Elon Musk.
Speaker 2: I mean, I wouldn't doubt that because he's he's kind
of in place right now to sell concepts and what
Disney I think has happened, because I was also there
during the tail end of the Disney renaissance, and I
worked there through most of like they're struggling, Like this
was not they didn't have a renaissance. I started there
at two thousand and three or four, and then I
left in twenty sixteen, I believe, So I worked there
that that whole time. But it definitely seemed that they
were kind of like on the downs for all of
the actual production Disney was doing. And and the thing
that I was thinking, I guess in my conspiratorial mind,
was well, if Disney's really run by fabians, then they
made me don't care how this movie or the next one,
or even with the next fiscal year or two. Maybe
they don't care as much about the return and that
they're doing all this weird DEI or like other like
odd movies with crazy like morality that it's getting pushed
into it that didn't seem to be attracting people. But
that's because they're not really in the business of maybe
turning profit. Right now, that Disney's main business is owning nostalgia,
it's owning our childhoods, and it's making sure that our
kids also are owned by that Disney nostalgia. So if
someone mentions Cinderella or snow White or Pinocchio or any
of these open you know, like public domain sort of creations,
a lot of people's minds goes right to Disney. And
there's something really powerful about that, because even if you
don't know about Disney, you're going to come across a
lot of these sort of fairy tales, especially if you're
in the Western world. So I think that Disney made
a huge, huge play to own that and continuously own
like chunks of not just our nostalgian childhood, but like
our grandparents and their grandparents.
Speaker 1: Well in European lore too.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, because the another weird rabbit hole, but a
lot of them were based on Grim fairy Tales among others.
But the Grim fairy Tales and Disney like completely changed
a lot of that. But also Disney, you could argue
they're the ones that kept these German this Germanic folklore
in fashion and even like a resurgence of it, like
they kind of revitalized these old Germanic tales that I
mean there were Grim's fairy Tales was popular. I think
it was as popular as the Bible for a long
period of time, Like it was not to be understated
how popular the book was. But Disney owning it again,
it was like the greatest if you were a Fabian,
the greatest investment strategy ever because now who would think
twice about sending your kid down in front of some
Disney movies for the day and you go into your
chores whatever. Like I was be sad and I was
at friends where it was just like if they have
the Disney Clamshell library, like we're yeah, three hours.
Speaker 1: Right, Oh, we could quote Lion King word for word,
including the songs and all of the parts. I mean,
we were Disney babies for sure.
Speaker 2: And that's not necessarily normal for any other contexts, but
for whatever reason, that's incredibly normalized, especially in America. But
if your kid knows a bunch of Disney movies by heart,
front to end, Uh, that's almost like a normal thing.
I mean it might be you know, a little savant going.
Speaker 1: On, but it would I yess, I agree. Yeah, my
little brother would be like tell me Lion King. You know,
if we didn't have access to the television, I just
like mos like every word. But that's so.
Speaker 2: True and Lion King. I'm convinceds programming of get Ready
to Eat Bugs, Like, if they can teach a lion
that he's going to survive off bugs, then humans can
survive off bugs.
Speaker 1: Oh, I figured out we'll line King is about. If
you watch the live action one, I mean the CGI,
not live action, but it looks realistic. It's very Skittles eerotic.
The undertones of when he goes out to live with
the Misfits, I don't know. You'll have to watch it
and tell me if you interpret that.
Speaker 2: Well. That's probably one of the other big claims is
that Disney puts like sexualized imagery into all of their
things that are aimed at kids. And that's probably one
of the more nefarious, I guess claims against Disney.
Speaker 1: Let's just say it's alternative lifestyle coded right. So, speaking
of movies, I thought it would be fun for me
and you to do our first, hopefully of many movie reviews.
And we do have somebody who comes on regular, Paul Hall,
and we've done a lot of movie reviews through the
perspective of Yngian psychology. So we'd done like Fantasia a
bunch of them, I mean mind Control too, but he's
expertise is just like you know, psychology and Disney history.
But me and Thomas are gonna do Return to Oz
because that is such a classic. I mean, we could
probably talk about that all day, just from the connection
to Wizard of Oz and theosophy, and it's a perfect
encapsulation of you know what we're talking about, mind control,
ritualistic trauma, disassociation, weird occult, all of that. So are
you ready to do Return to Oz?
Speaker 2: I'm ready. This is actually a perfect one because it
touches on all the different topics.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is nineteen eighty five, and this just
cracked me up when I thought about watching it and
about like the cartoon of our generation in general, I'm thinking,
you're about the same age as me, just by you know,
your stories. Why did they hate us so much?
Speaker 2: Why? Why did they so much?
Speaker 1: Older and content creators hate us so much? Like what
is Are you Afraid at the Dark? Remember that show?
Speaker 2: I loved that show? Yeah, like Thumps and arl Stein.
Speaker 1: I grew up on that Christopher Pike. But when you
look at it through the eyes of adult and like
the Conspiracy, you know, shine a light and put all
these filters on and you're like, damn, they were trying
to like traumatize me and scare me and scar me.
Speaker 2: And like, well a thing, especially if we talk about
classic Disney animation, maybe not the stuff that was made
for us in the eighties and nineties, but all of
the DNA that those came from these classic Disney movies.
One of the weirdest like juxtapositions to consider is that
a lot of these guys were doing Disney movies, got
called off to war, like actually had body counts, like
saw horrific acts of war, had you know, like took
lives of their own, and then came back and finished
the Disney movies. So there is some significant built in
trauma with all of this. And some of this this
was after the Lost Generation. Then there was the Silent Generation,
and then the Golden Generation. So this is somewhere in
between what you would call the Silent and the gold
like the Best generation, where they were all just going
to war constantly, and I think that that trauma gets
built into everything that they're working on. And then also
as time goes on, there's almost like a like a
sliding scale where these kids aren't traumatized like we were
back in the day. So it's almost a way of
trying to convey that same feeling, those same crazy traumas
that they went through in real life and put it
on everything that they're putting out in terms of art.
And obviously kids see that and they kind of are
just feeling the echoes of this very real trauma that
was going on. And I mean the other side of
me too, is well Fritz Springbyer would say, this is
all played like they are intentionally traumatizing you to open
you up. And I believe that part too, and I
think that the Disney version of that is, let's traumatize you.
I've got this theory that I don't think I've invented.
I'm sure someone else has come up with it, but
the Disney proxy, and that's the nearly every Disney movie,
with the exception of like five or six that we've
seen so far, dating back to the thirties, they all
have this very specific formula that gets more advanced over time.
But the formulas basically introduce a child and their support figures,
their authority figures, and then take away the authority figures.
The kid gets lost, they get kidnapped, the parents die,
like something happens, and now it's just the kid by
themselves in this big, scary world and the unknown. And again,
if you're this kid that's your parents are in the
other room doing you know, parent stuff, and you're just
plopped in front of this TV, you're fully engrossed in it,
and you become that protagonists they just lost all of
his parents, and you actually start going through the same trauma.
And the first thing that takes you out of that
trauma that makes you feel good again is inevitably going
to be a happy meal toy, or it's gonna be
on a lunchbox, or it's gonna have like a T shirt.
And I really think that this is the formula that
they had been working on all along, was to Okay,
we've got this trauma, and now that we know through
warfare and government programs that trauma can like kind of
open you up to things. Well, what do we stuff
in that big trauma shaped toll? Well, how about some
merch about some like nice commercialized toys and tickets to
Disney World and stuff. So that's kind of the answer
of like why do they hate us? I think it's
more of like they hate what they went through and
they start putting it into everything they know. And then
the corporate suits at Disney are like, oh this, like,
let's not stop this. We can actually capitalize on this.
This is good.
Speaker 1: Well, you just told this story that I wrote in
my book that I gave you about trauma based mind
control and my experience with Land Before Time. It's the
first movie I ever no theater and his mom died
and I'm like, I was shook it as a little kid,
you know, and I had to blue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a serious one.
Speaker 1: I had to get the little foot plushy toy and
like love it because it was an orphan.
Speaker 2: Now you know, it works, it works so well. And
there's and as a kid, you've got that soft skull.
You don't have like the scar tissue from being conned
and scammed over and over again in real life. Yet
so yeah, you're absolutely You're like, I am actually helping
this poor defenseless sentient plush toy from the traumas of
the world. Let me like, like you're almost gonna champion
for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were trying to heal that wound.
Speaker 2: So and from like a Disney standpoint, if you're the
ones that are checking the numbers and signing the checks,
like you actually hear what those balance sheets look like.
I mean, I'm making an assumption here because I don't
know all the background numbers when they were going through
the releases, but have to assume that they were, like, hey,
these movies that have some pretty significant traumas, they tend
to have much wider reception, maybe not even critical, but
more people talk about it for longer. Bambi was another
really good example of this, and that Disney realized that
there were the public backlash for that movie was so
wide Disney had to kind of walk it back, and
it took years for some ecosystems to recover because people
started banning you couldn't hunt deer anymore, or they would
limit it so much, not realizing that humans are basically
the only thing that keeps deer cold and if you
don't call them then you get these huge overpopulation problems.
So Disney, once they released Bambi and they saw the
effect of that, they started getting a lot more conscious
and not just like throwing out trauma and then reaping
on it, because they have a very real reaction. The
regular world like ecosystems were affected by a movie they
put out.
Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned Fabians and then Bambi was also part
of like a conservation push towards the wildlife rewilding and
the what we have know now is like climate change
and all that. Like I am environment like cleaning up environments.
I'm for that, but I'm not for the fake carbon
tax and all that weird like climate box in.
Speaker 2: The Hound too was very much as like the original
story was about urban sprawl. That was like the main
villain in the story the book of Fox and Hound
was just the spread of these suburbs that were taking
over where the fox used to be able to just
live its life undisturbed. And that was another Uh, it's
so crazy how a lot of these go. I think
one of the animators or one of the guys that
was originally writing that book, he wanted to train a falcon.
I think it was either a hawk or falcon. I
think it was a falcon. And he because he was
trying to get into that mindset of like I'm an outdoorsman,
now I'm a conservationist, like I'm one with nature. But
he didn't come from that world, so he felt bad
as he was raising this this hawk and kept feeding
it all the time because you don't want to starve it.
But I guess the way that you're supposed to train
a hawk is that you essentially starve it so that
it only feeds when you take it out to go hunting.
And then after it learns that and you got a bond,
then you can kind of treat it like, you know,
a family member. But this the guy that was in
charge of this, he didn't get that concept. He kept
feeding it and feeding it because he didn't want to
starve it. And the first time he brings it out,
it's like, all right, I'm an actual you know, falconier. Now,
then you go ahead and send this bird out. It
flies and never comes back because it never really understood that,
you know, it couldn't just go in find food anywhere.
So it's just an example of how Disney comes and
they'll say like, oh, let's make like a moral or
like an ecological sort of standpoint with this movie, but
they don't actually understand the science. It's all on emotions,
and again it's it's all about trauma and feeling good
and feeling bad and not so much about how things
really work.
Speaker 1: And look, who's coming to save it from the woke
mind virus. So I think that's just going to be
another like tool in the pocket of getting the favor
of people.
Speaker 2: Don't who better to do that? Right? If it's if
it's someone that has positioned themselves as a free speech absolutionist,
like Elon has kind of been positioning that, like with
owning acts now people like please buy MSNBC or whatever
do the same thing. So that's the person that you
would need to usher in the way of thinking.
Speaker 1: Restore Disney to its glory days. And we all love
him that anyway. Returned Oz nineteen eighty five. Did you
notice it starts out in space?
Speaker 2: I don't know if I did, or I saw that
there was like a planet, but I guess I didn't
put two and two together on that.
Speaker 1: So we're going to do a show upcoming with Clint
about serious But it starts out panning from space into
the window into Dorothy's bedroom. And so this is six
months after her classic Wizard of Oz Hail, right, which
a lot of people think that this is like a
proto socialist critique of Wall Street or I mean, that's
one theory that fits very well. But what we're going
to talk about is in regards to my control and
everything that we've been discussing. But so, yeah, you are
out in space and it pans into Dorothy's bedroom and
she sees a shooting star.
Speaker 2: Classic Disney.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, do you want to start there? Do
you have any comments on the opening scenes?
Speaker 2: Well? I think that the Shooting Star is sort of
a perfect entry point for this too because of its
deep theosophical roots. So I guess the important thing to
start out with is eat all of the original OZ books,
and I think there's I'm gonna just make a number up.
I think it's like thirteen or something. There's like an
insane number of OZ books. And all these OZ books
are deeply rooted in theosophy. And I believe that Frank Baum,
even he was a contemporary, even had to think maybe
a falling out. I hope I'm not miss quoting that.
But with Helena Blovotsky, so this isn't just someone that
read a book and was like, oh cool, I'm gonna,
you know, based some fiction on this. He was very
deep in the theosophical movement. And part of that is
is kind of this idea that I guess Crawley popularize
a little bit more, but that we're all stars, and
that you know the concept of a star is to
shine bright and to attract other stars, and that you
want to be amongst the rest of the stars. So
starting out on this shot of space, this is also
a mentality that I guess was had been developing for
the last five decades or so of like this Hollywood
star thing, and everyone's unique and everyone is, like you know,
capable of making these big impacts and shining. So I
think that that's the concept, right, every man and woman
is a star. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, and of course that star probably would be serious,
and she's dreaming of Oz, and then I think y'all
need to look up liber Oz. I'm not gonna read
the whole thing, but here is the sigil of Crowley's
liber Oz. You've seen that, right, yes, okay, so you're
looking at a perspective of some genitals. That is what
the circumpunct is, the tip of uh the spear, so
to speak. And then the little gonads and sixty six six.
But this is about like slavery, like mind control. The
slaves shall serve. Man has to live by his own law.
He eat what he will speak, what he will he
has the right to kill those who would thwart his rights.
And then the last line of it is called the
slaves shall serve. So here we have already connected Frank Baum,
the who they call the American Wizard, right, Theosophist. A
lot of Roleie and theosophy link up. And this is
also gonna have some Alice in Wonderland themes. And I'm
sure you would agree with this. But Ozma is like
her holy guardian.
Speaker 2: Angel, right, Yeah, that's a thing that I guess if
anyone has just seen the movies or have just kind
of paid attention to the pop culture version of this.
But Wizard of Oz stands for Ozma, and Ozma is
like the actual like not a witch, but sort of
like this sorceress that controls all of oz. She's like
a like a like a magical queen. Another thing too,
about the liber Oz. Even in the movie when Feruza balk,
which is another wild thing, I didn't even remember that,
like going back and rewatching, I had no idea that
that was the main character in this. But when she
finds this key out in the field in the mundane world,
which is how I kind of separate the like oz
from Kansas where before she goes to Oz is like
the mundane world and this theosophical sort of astroal world.
But in the mundane world she finds the Key to Oz,
and the key itself is just a letter Z inside
of this O, and it's kind of representing like the
key to Az is everything inside of the symbol.
Speaker 1: Well, this is a classic theosophical Rosicrucian idea of like
self actualization, you know, the classic like everything you possess
is already inside of you. Because when you watch Wizard
of Oz, you know, the Lion is already brave, the
tin Man is already loving, and the Scarecrow is already smart.
So you already have all of these, and the Wizard
is just the obstacle is imaginary, and in a way,
these are all parts of Dorothy too, like your journey
through adulthood. You have to acquire all of these qualities
and virtues. And so there's a lot of esoteric like
reading into just the first Oz itself. But then when
you watch Return to Oz, you get a more clearer
picture of like the sorcery that's involved in it, and
like the nefarious nature of what how they create, you know, uberminch,
which are like alternate people with alternate personalities.
Speaker 2: What do you think the Return to Oz. Also it
shows a lot more on certain gestures and hand signs
and magical incantations and like the specific order that they
all have to go in. There's a magical like reanimation
powder that you have to say words in a certain order.
So it definitely it leans way more into the Colt aspect,
and I think critically it kind of, uh, it didn't
do great because it took this darker tone with everything.
It didn't have the bright colors and the gold and
the emeralds and all that stuff on the first movie.
It probably confused a lot of people going into it.
They probably didn't had no idea what they were walking into.
That they basically went from like a children's adaptation to
a book into a Coult adaptation that there was no
really like sweetening of it. I think that that's kind
of a fascinating part of it. And also you mentioned
like the mind control aspect. The part that I really
it was like just standing out to me so strong
is that she literally goes to get shock treatment because
no one believes her that she was in this other place,
which I guess you'd interpret is that in the mundane world,
no one believes this little girl could have actually become
enlightened or had any sort of actual revelation. So now
she's got some sort of mental illness. And the thing
that they're sort of balancing in the movie, in the
story is that they have this new technology. They know
how to row energy directly into the human brain through
these electro convulsive techniques, and it's kind of being purported
as this magical they don't call it snake oil, but
it's essentially like a cure all of device. And this
was so sort of a counter to the theosophist Because
of theosophists, I think, I hope I'm not a complet
wrong about this, but it was like they believe in energy,
but energy was almost a representation of consciousness. It wasn't
something to be exploited to just turn a lamp on
or to just like start a car or whatever. I'm
oversimplifying a little bit, but that the whole premise of
the beginning of Return to Oz is that these dumb,
mundane bumpkins are taking this electricity and they're trying to
just zap your brain with it. When really you need
to be absorbing it. You need to be like getting
that energy through independent study and theosophy, not through just
raw secular science blasting it at you.
Speaker 1: Right, So he's the charlatan who does not have the
proper initiation.
Speaker 2: So he's just like he's like a cow inn or something.
He's yeah, he's the one that that is wielding the
technology but doesn't understand it. And even in the very beginning,
they make a very specific note to show Dorothy this
machine that's eventually going to be the electro shock device,
and he's like, look at this. It's got, you know,
two eyes and a face, and like here's its little
mouth or whatever. And I believe that that electro shock
therapy device ends up being TikTok because TikTok has that
metallic face and everything, like that's the configuration. She ends
up becoming friends with it, but she also realizes that
this thing is inanimate, like it's it's just a wind
up thing. It's a mechanical animal for like a like
a Cartesian sort of way of looking at it, and
that kind of can like that's the deepest theosophical thing
was that this technology don't be tricked like this freakin
moose head that I just attached to a sleigh and
I sprinkled this powder dust on it. That's actually real,
Like we can actually animate that because it came from
some kind of organic matter. But this thing, this automaton
that seems to be alive. It's the farthest thing and
not only is it not alive and can't be animated,
but it's kind of like the evil, Like this is
the electroshock device that everyone's convinced themselves. Is this uh,
this new future just kind of wild because we're still
sort of doing that now, We're we're saying like, oh,
this new technology is going to change everything.
Speaker 1: Well, that reminds me of scientology too, you know how
like you grab the e meters and they yeah, so
that could be part of it. Did you notice that
the chicken was the one that found the key? So
talking about the mundane to the spiritual, obviously this is
about the initiation of Dorothy and her realizing she is,
you know, her higher self through Ozma. Right, we'll get there.
I don't want to like spoil it, but where was
I going with that?
Speaker 2: Blini? You're talking about Balllini, her chicken that found the key.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So the chicken, you know, it's not a
very smart or noble animal. It's just a chicken, but
it uh somehow ends up being the savior of them
all right by laying an egg. Which you could talk
about eggs and a cult for a long time. But
the cool thing about this movie that actually makes it
like a good movie, maybe not a children's movie, is that,
like you said, everything from the time on Earth she
sees it in oz So TikTok is the machine, even
the women's faces when we get to momby and she's
switching heads. It's like women she's seen in the other world,
even down to props, plants, like everything. And the house also,
like you know how they're rebuilding the house.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's again it's six months after the first one,
so that they're leaning into the fact that the tornado
took their house.
Speaker 1: Away, right, So that is her psyche obviously, because you
know it's unfinished. And there's always a correlation between like
houses and your psyche and in my control in psychiatry.
So there's that. And then she comes on a whirlwind,
which a lot of spirits throughout history and literature, like
angels come in whirlwinds a lot, so there's a lot
being placed on Dorothy. And yeah, like you mentioned the
foreshattering of everything, And it's interesting how she got to
Oz first in the first movie by the wind and
the second by the water. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Oh, I actually just put that together. Yeah, they're going
through the different elements. You can even make an argument
that the yellow brick road probably could have represented fire
or light too, So there's probably she's probably gone through
all the elements in Oz at this point, especially this
one being the water that brings are there. I guess
water would also be the more a cult of any
of the elements to bring you somewhere because it has
this unknown depth to it.
Speaker 1: Mm hm.
Speaker 2: And I really like the idea too. I definitely prescribed
that everything that we see of her in Oz, she's
still in the mundane world to like everyone else, but
she's just going through and seeing everything through these totally
different lens.
Speaker 1: M h. A lot of Disney movies have this in common,
that the mother figure either dies in the movie or
has already died. Ray, I'm sure you noticed that trend.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is that's basically what I consider that Disney
proxy so that the kid will watch, especially if it's
one of the first movies that you're seeing as a
as a child and you don't have a lot of
her frame of reference. It immediately puts you into a
traumatized state, like you you no longer have a mother,
all right.
Speaker 1: Go yeah, exactly, And we're gonna see how they try
to insert other This is so deep and interesting. She's
already an orphan and being raised by her aunt. Then
her aunt tries to take her to the like you said,
snake oil salesman, you know. And they even mentioned this
is going to be a new century, like this is
the year eighteen ninety nine or nineteen hundred, and like
we're rolling over into like a brand new world with electricity. Right,
So they're kind of on a cusp or a precipice
like we are now with AI, Like we don't know
how crazy it's going to get.
Speaker 2: They started describing technology, and this, my opinion was this
was sort of like the theosophical criticism of how the
normies we're seeing electricity and they make this statement that
the brain itself. He's trying to explain it to Dorothy's
parents and they're saying, you know, the brain is kind
of just like an electrical machine, and just like all
the electrical machines that you're aware of, they can malfunction
sometimes sometimes they produce excess energy, just like any other
machine can. But they sell it at as well, now
we've got the technology, we can control this excess of electricity.
And they're kind of relaying that Dorothy talking about being
in oz that's this just excess energy that's in her brain,
and they're going to quell that. You know, they're going
to figure out a way to stop the excess energy,
and this is the wonders of technology, right.
Speaker 1: But it comes to find out that this is actually
like a house of horrors that you know, Ozma is
saving her from the evil quack guy because well, you
can read it in one way. When they flip the
switch and the lightning strikes, it doesn't work right. So
on one level of interprening it, you could say that
everything happened that happened after that was a part of
a disassociation or you know, a trip of her like
it actually did work, but if you watch the movie closely,
that doesn't make sense. So she actually does manage to escape,
and that makes.
Speaker 2: Oz real, right, and it's also worth pointing out that
they're talking about how they've gained control over this excess
of energy their words in the movie. Yet that lightning
strike causes such an excess of electricity that their technology
no longer works. So it sort of proves that they're
on the wrong path, like they don't actually understand this
technology that they claim to be masters of.
Speaker 1: So she and it's a pretty intense scene. I mean,
they strap her down to the gurney and put the
things on her head, and I'm sure you've seen this
classic picture of the mp ultright, looks very similar, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the leather wrap on the head and like, yeah,
it's almost like the same haircut going on. Yes, it
definitely had a very odd look to It is also
a Halloween movie. It literally takes place during Halloween, I believe,
because they note that a few times. And then also
while that's happening, she can hear this moaning happening, and
she's asking Ozma, like, what are those noises, and she said, well,
those are basically the people that did go through the
electro convulsive therapy and now they lock them in the
basement and they're basically mechanical animals. They're basically like little
tiktoks running around down there.
Speaker 1: Did you notice that the evil lady is the same
lady from Willow?
Speaker 2: I did not notice that, No, I love the Willow growing.
Speaker 1: Up too, She's the evil queen from Willow. So that
just made it even more creepier. And so they have
to escape her, and they float away, and somehow she
loses Ozma or Ozma disappears, and she washes up back
in oz But now she has to get there a
different way, so she has across the desert and then
you know the field, and this is where you start
seeing the flashbacks. So she comes upon a lunch pale
tree and it looks just like the lunch pail that
her aunt em had given her, because why did Auntie
Em just drop her off at these strangers house for
the whole day. So she's being abandoned several times, you know,
not like necessary maliciously, but through circumstance, like she's being
put in situations that probably shouldn't leave your kid alone
with no one, like a weird elector shock doctor of
the well.
Speaker 2: They also, her parents have no idea what to do
with her, because now they've got this sort of enlightened
indigo child living with them. And this is another thing.
Speaker 1: That's they're muggles still.
Speaker 2: They're muggle. They're absolutely not only are they muggles, but
they are such muggles that the main reason that they
even bring Dorothy here isn't necessarily that they're concerned for
her mental health. The mom makes a very explicit statement,
She's like, you've been staying up late, like you can't
get to sleep, and now you can't help on the farm.
And it was that you can't help us in our
mundane tasks on this mundane world. So now we have
to fix you. We have to whatever weird enlightenment stuff
you got going on, it's affecting your ability to just
work on these fields with us. And that was the
real issue.
Speaker 5: So you can almost you're of no use to me anymore,
because right, like stop with all the philosophy and the theosophy, like,
let's let's fix you so that you don't care about
these otherworldly things anymore and you just come back and
do farm work.
Speaker 2: So almost that they weren't trying to fix her because
they were concerned they were trying to zap any of
this enlightenment, right, back out of her so that she
could go back to being a muggle.
Speaker 1: Oh good point. So she comes upon her old house
that brought her there, which is her old mind, right,
her old self. She's like, I used to live here,
but I don't live there anymore. So she shed this
you know, persona, and she's like pupating into a new
like you said, initiate on this magical journey towards what
are they called ascended masters.
Speaker 2: Right, the theosophical idea that once you get to like
a certain checkpoint, you get to go and like live
in the skies for a while and I'll and like
you said, she's almost going through a metamorphosis from a
pupa because the first thing that she does after she
leaves that deadly desert which just absorbs all water if
you touch it, is she finds that tree and she
has to pick a ripe one because there's green lunch
pails and then there's red lunch pails, so she picks
the red lunch pail. That kind of does show that
she's ripened, like she's already been here before, She's already
shed the old one, so she's not green now. Now
she's like ready to open the real meal to get
her like Susten and for her second adventure through this.
Speaker 1: And this is where you are introduced to the the
minions of the Nome King, who are super creepy and
they like morph no no, the guy step morphed through
the rocks and spy on you.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, the little eyeballs that start poking out of
the rocks.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And this uh I learned about in Fritz Springer
who in relation to like a Britney Spears video. So
what they'll say is that items can hear you and
they report back to your handlers. So you better watch
what you say and do at all times because we're
watching you, right. So this one.
Speaker 2: Also made me think of the Tunnel and Labyrinth where
she goes down and it's all like the hands that
are all there. Yeah. Yeah, even if you feel like
you're abandoned in this lost world, there's someone there. But
it's not someone that make you feel better. It's someone
that's sort of keeping tabs on you and reporting back.
Speaker 1: And the Nome King he's obviously the elemental Earth because
he's all rocks, right, and he was he the same
guy that played the doctor because a lot of the
people from the real world show up in but I didn't.
I couldn't notice because he had all grief. I should
have looked at up being.
Speaker 2: In professional that's a good question. I don't know if
he was, but yeah, if you can look it up
and find out for sure. But he the Rock King.
This one also made me think of snow White all
over again, because even this this Gnome King that lives
and kind of like created from rocks and controls all
these other like rock sort of entities, he has this
thing that he's complaining about that all these gems that
he's got in his world and these humans keep coming
and taking his gems away. That the people of Oz
were taking the gem this is where all the Emeralds
from the Emerald Cities came from. Is that they were
removing it from him. And the cult premise of snow White,
which gets into sort of like hermetic stories, was that
they were making an exchange. That these earth elementals which
were the gnomes again Nome King, but the dwarfs in
Snow White are Earth elementals, and they're the ones that
can go into the dark and they can retrieve these gems,
but that they have no use for these gems because
they don't emit any light themselves, and it's snow White
that is emitting the light, and the concept being that
the light is this human consciousness. So the Earth elementals
have this equal exchange where snow White is teaching them things.
Here's how to cook and clean, here's how to sing
and dance, things that they would never have any interaction with,
and in exchange for that, it's like, Okay, well, here's
the gems from our world. You're giving us gems from
your world. But in this movie, the Nome King he's
kind of complaining about like an imbalance here where that
the humans and all the entities of Oz are taking
the gems from this Earth realm, but they're not necessarily
giving anything back. They're not bestowing knowledge or any human
consciousness in return, and that's what's created this and now
the kind of pendulum is swinging in this movie Return
to Oz. Now the Nome King has taken over. He's
the one that rules all of Oz. Everything's been turned
to stone now, everything's inanimate, everything.
Speaker 1: Is of his element now. And he thinks that the
Emerald City was stolen from.
Speaker 2: His realm, right, all the gems that was used to
power them and give them all their technology. Everything it
was stolen in that no one gave him an equal
share back. He didn't have a snow White to teach
him how to dance and sing. They were just taking
the stuff and building the city out of it. And
even if you go and rewatch the first Wizard of
Oz movie, it's kind of like a secret society. Like
even if you know where the Emerald City is, you've
got to knock three times, you've got to give the
secret password in order before you're admitted. So they're kind
of not taking the gems from the world and then
like sharing the light and sharing consciousness, they're keeping it
for themselves and keeping it hidden. So I think that
the Nome King is kind of like the exact opposite
of that. He's like, well, if you guys are going
to create a secret society and hord this for yourselves,
I'm taking it all back and I'm turning everyone to stone.
Speaker 1: And that's also kind of a reference to like the Himalayas,
which they believe a lot of their you know, demigods
or gods or hidden masters reside in or at least
take up residence for thousands of years right, So inside
of the walls of the Himalayas, and that's expeditions they
would go to Tibet. I'm sure you've heard of Nicholas
Roik and all of that, So that all fits in
perfectly with the Oz the os of.
Speaker 2: Right. I didn't even put that together either, that's perfect
the Yeah.
Speaker 1: So again Dorothy has to do some kind of David
and Goliath, uh, you know, stand up to an impossible foe,
which the wizard in the first one was just the
illusion of obstacles because you know you're a magician.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. All she had to do in the first
movie was get the courage to challenge the authority, and
that was and then just by challenging the authority or
questioning it directly, she kind of overcame it. And this
one it's a little bit more dire, like there's actual
people that have lost their heads, and there's people that
have physically changed and it's like a barren wasteland. So
the threat in this one is a lot more explicit.
Speaker 1: So she has just come back to Oz and she's
found the house in disrepair and the yellow Bick road
is all busted up, and it's only been six months
for her, but it's been years and years and years for.
Speaker 2: Oz, right, but she's still too young because when she
runs into Princess Momby, which is weird. I wonder if
it was supposed to sound like mommy or like mom
but Princess mom Yeah, she takes she finds Dorothy and
she's she wants to take her for her head, but
she mentions that her head's too small, Like, you're too young.
Your head's too small. It won't fit on my head yet.
So you still have like some gestation apparently to go through.
But I'm going to put you in this tower, and
then if I keep you in the tower long enough,
then your head will be compatible with the rest of
my heads. That all feels very occult too.
Speaker 1: Mine can of initiation to go through.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, like you have to be molded. You have
to be sort of like chipped away and turned into
this ashlar stone before we can put you into the building.
Speaker 1: So yeah, she makes it too past the wheelers, which
I mean, why do you hate kids? Okay, that's that's terrifying,
and meets TikTok and gets to Momby, and Mommby throws
her in the tower and she meets Jack the pumpkin head,
which if you notice when the snake oil salesman's lady
assistant put her in the room, is like, here, take
a nap, And she locked her in that dingy room,
right when she hasn't slept for six months? Why she
could to take a nap in this weird ass place.
And there's like a pumpkin on the table.
Speaker 2: So that's Jack in because it's Halloween.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Jack wakes up and he thinks that she's
the mom she he thinks Dorothy is his mom, when
it was actually Ozma. But Dorothy and Ozma are one,
so he's also got a mommy abandonment type issues, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Dorothy's sort of the physical manifestation of Ozma. So
I guess in a rosicrucion way, which is easy to
conflate Rosicrucianism and you know, theosophical ideals, It kind of
they play in the same sandbox and they derive some
of the same things. But in the idea of Rosicrucianism
being that you can have this consciousness that has no
material density, but once it gets close enough to the
a mundane world of some kind, the material starts building itself.
Around this consciousness like a shell. The best analogy, I
think this came from a Manly Palmer Hall book, but
he has this analogy where if you imagine that like
your soul or consciousness is like your hand and you
keep putting gloves on it, like the first glove is
when you enter a new material world and you put
another glove on as you get close to the ground.
At a certain point you've got like a hundred gloves
on your hand where you can't really even feel your
hand anymore. It's just this big numb like massive material.
And that's sort of Dorothy. Dorothy is the version of
Ozma that's got all these gloves on so that she
can exist in the mundane world. But really it's the
same person.
Speaker 1: Mm hm. So interesting. So I don't like the Gump.
What do you make of him? Like, what is he
in this esoteric? Because I couldn't figure out what he's
supposed to represent.
Speaker 2: I have to go out on a limb a little
bit on this one. But they describe Gump as a
cross between an elk and a goat. But to me,
it's like this is the goat head. If you were
in the theosophy, really big You probably are familiar with
the history of magic and elfhis Levey's work, right, So
this is the goat of Mendis. I think this is
that goat head which represents sort of profane magic and
what do What's the thing that they do with Gump
is they animate it. They strap it to this big
sleigh and they put all these things on it, and
then she sprinkles the powder of life on it. And
this is the first time they have to do a
legitimate incantation where they where she says uh we aw
tia pa, you have to say in that order, yeah,
we a pia tiya. And in the book they go
a step further and they state that when you say
those words, the first word, you have to raise your
left hand with your little finger up when you say
we are. Then you have to raise your right hand
with your thumb up, saying tia, and then you have
to use both hands with all your fingers spread out
and say pa. So it's like left hand, right hand,
both hands like. It's not just they sprinkle powder on it,
which is more typical classic Disney. You put a little
magic powder on it, the thing flies. You put magic powder,
it comes back to life. And this month it's like, no, no,
there's more to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tinkerbell Ferry does.
Speaker 2: Right right well, and that one you also have to clap,
But yeah, this one is the most This one actually
feels like Dorothy is reading these instructions out of a
grimoire versus it's just Disney magic.
Speaker 6: Well, is he like a monculus gump Homegumpulus like all
parts of different things mished together?
Speaker 2: I would say Gola maybe closer to Yeah, okay, gump right,
like an amalgamation of different body parts that will have
been like forced together, and he can fly. And and
that was the other thing too, That gump is, I
guess more real than TikTok is the weird little robot guy,
because TikTok is not an animate object. It's it's completely inanimate,
and that it's it's uh, you know, mechanical, doesn't have
any organic material to it. So I wonder if if
you put the power of life on TikTok if anything
would have happened, or if it only worked for because
she has to keep winding TikTok God. But it's like
if you've got magic powder that just makes things come
to life, you don't got to wind this guy up anymore.
I feel like that was another nod to like technology
is not the same as like real organic living life,
even if it's already dead. Necromancy is more powerful than
the technology.
Speaker 1: Well, he even mentions he's proud of his lifelessness, right.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, he's he's like, uh, he's glad that he's
gon'ta have to go through these trials and tribulations that
Dorothy is. He he can just not be wound up
and go to sleep for a thousand years and it's
all the same to him.
Speaker 1: He doesn't care, and that's what saved him in the end, right,
because he wasn't turned into an object because he didn't
have life so right, so.
Speaker 2: He couldn't be converted into like one of these green
items in this weird memory palace m hm to.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I didn't like any of her companions in this.
I guess the chicken was okay because it was sassy, but.
Speaker 2: Well that was Toto that she needed a Toto, so
that kind of filled that role for her, And.
Speaker 1: I just my OCD did not like the falling apartness
of the gump and the jack just like put that
thing out of its miseries falling apart.
Speaker 2: You know, the part that was really annoying me the
most out of all of it was the face of
the scarecrow when they finally meet up with the scarecrow. Yes,
I couldn't under with the amount of budget that went
into this movie, I can't understand why the scarecrow had this.
It looks like they went the kmart on the way
to you know, filming the scene.
Speaker 1: And they just scarecrow. Was weird?
Speaker 2: I did, right, Yeah, I didn't. I really don't understand
what the the artistic direction was for that scarecrow.
Speaker 1: That was so bad. And it didn't even have like
you just want to punch it in the face, you
know what. It looked like Raggedy Ann or Andy Doll,
remember that, right.
Speaker 2: It couldn't emote. It just had one facial expression, which
is odd.
Speaker 1: It was terrible.
Speaker 2: There was another thing too, that was in the book
that they didn't they didn't point out in the movie.
Maybe it would have been a little bit too morbid.
But when Dorothy first comes across those headless sculptures, which
we find out later those the bodies to the women
that Princess Mumby has collected, that like she puts all
their heads on, but they also walk by the tin Man,
and in the book of the Return to Oz, they
have this whole line where the tin Man keeps cutting
parts of his body off and replacing them with tin,
so it was like an actual person. It keeps like
chopping himself up and replacing it, almost like this weird
ship of theseus angle. But it also plays into this
weird cybernetic transhumanist idea of the electro shock and the
Wheelers infusing with technology. The tin Man, I think, represented
that as the worst way that it can go, and
that's why he needed the heart in the original book,
was because he he went so far down that path
of transhumanism that he needed to walk it back a
little bit.
Speaker 1: Do you think the Wheelers were the gurney that strapped
her down?
Speaker 2: Because oh, I didn't take that until just now. Yeah. Absolutely,
I mean and also the obvious too is that they
are the new flying monkeys, because you have to have
like the minions that fly around. But yeah, it makes
sense that they are the gurneys. Okay, I love that.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1: Why do you make of Well, so she gets to
the Nome King and she you know, there's always a deal,
like a wager. You know, Villain's always loved to bet.
And why do you think it was the egg that
poisoned him.
Speaker 2: In the end, Well, the egg represents life, or more importantly,
the potential to create life, and this is something that
the Nome King has no business in this world. He's
just rocks and inanimate objects. And these Earth elementals and
the Earth elementals are different than like this, life giving,
like this is the version of the snow white, like
this is the human element but unlike the Earth elementals
and snow White and the ones that are making these exchanges,
he's turned off to the concept of consciousness and it's
almost like the antithesis of him. And in fact, I
think they cite that this is poison to him. At
least in the book they mentioned that eggs are poison
and the eggs are chickens are not allowed anywhere. So, yeah,
it would make sense in a theosophical sense that something
capable of creating life would be the ultimate victor over
something that is completely inanimate.
Speaker 1: Also a feminine principle.
Speaker 2: Too, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the egg overcomes the Nome King. What do you
make of the ruby slippers real fast. I'm starting to
like wind out because I'm still sick. But I could
talk about this all day.
Speaker 2: But well, I think the the slippers being read was
a device of the movies, and I think in the
books they weren't ruby slippers. There were some other color
where they's silver or something. I can't remember what color
they were. But it's it's interesting too because that gets continued,
uh like in the movie version as this thing act
I guess in a in a very meta way, right
the uh as this theosophical story literally enters the mundane
world through film, and like actual actors acting out in
mundane film sets, they do sort of change some of
the different elements. So this is almost like that corruption
that gets in introduced when you try and take a
theosophical concept and manifest it and explain in a different way.
So these are like the little reverberations because it's it's
odd that the ruby slippers end up being a focal point,
Like it's almost impossible to talk about Wizard of Oz
and not conjure up this idea of the ruby red slippers,
which in itself is almost like this exoteric red herring
where you know, focus on the slippers don't look at
all this the point.
Speaker 1: That's just a little misdirection.
Speaker 2: That's how I see it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, so everything is restored, but she wants to
be in both places at the same time at the end,
and she makes that comment like, I wish.
Speaker 1: I could live here and there, but apparently that's impossible.
Speaker 2: Well only because the mundane world can't accept her for
doing that. I think she realizes that she could live
both places, but she'd probably find herself and strap down
on a gurney uh frequently, so that, yeah, you have
to make the decision between the two until she.
Speaker 1: Gets like a little coven of her own or some
kind of you know, like she can't live in the
Muggle world. But if she finds other Theosophists or star seeds, right.
Speaker 2: Then Ydigo children, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Then they can go to Mars. So Princess Ozma comes
out of the mirror. That's kind of the obvious uh
part where you're realizing that this is another higher form
of Dorothy.
Speaker 2: Right right, literally her just in a different realm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she goes back home and she wakes up
after the flood, you know, so she returns again through
the waterway and she wakes up on the sand after
the flood, and the story was that lightning struck the
clinic and the guy, the doctor, died because he's trying
to save the machines instead of get out of the fire.
What do you make of that? So he's clinging to
his technology and it was his demise in the end, right.
Speaker 2: Right, And again, just like the machine malfunction because it
got this excess of energy, he also gets an excess
of energy which causes him to malfunction permanently. It's the ultimates.
I guess this is the strongest theosophical I guess, like
lesson that they're teaching you is that if you put
all your energy into the technology, then it's going to
kill you, Like that's going to be your demise. Whereas
Dorothy is the one that is still operating with this
extra energy, but she's applying it in these you know,
occult and sort of arcane ways and not in the
mundane world.
Speaker 1: Well, was there anything that you didn't get to in
your great review of Return Oz? So it's like number
one in a cult Disney on your playlist? Right, Return
to Oz.
Speaker 2: It was the most recent one that we had done. Yeah,
And our and we did like a dark Disney series
where we just did the scariest, purportedly the scariest of
all of the Disney movies that were meant to be
like that.
Speaker 1: What are those?
Speaker 2: It was Return to Oz, the Black Hole, Watcher in
the Woods, and what was the other one that we
were going to talk about something something wicked?
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, we'll get there, all right.
Speaker 2: And these ones were I mean, this one being a
Halloween movie, I think they definitely leaned into some of
the creepier aspects of it. The one that was the
most shocking to hear the reason why the movie existed
was Watcher in the Woods and this was Disney saw
how commercially successful The Exorcist was and they were like,
we want to do that, Like we want we want
some of that action.
Speaker 1: Who was some demon possession action? So was there any
like things that stuck out to you that you wanted
to get to on Return to Oz?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there was a weird tangent that I ended
up going down. I was reading more about the the
actual history of the Nome King, because in the books,
there's not just one Nome King, there's a whole line
of Nome King that like supersede each other and they've
got different names and stuff. But one of these Gnome Kings,
it was sort of conflated with Santa Claus, like like
there was an actual Santa Claus story by Frank Baum
and his reindeer were wheelers. So there's a that that
seems like an incredible I don't think it's ever been
adapted into a movie, but that feels like a rabbit hole.
Maybe I'd like to go down for Christmas or something like.
How like, what is the connection between Santa Claus being
driven around by these crazy wheelers which might be these
Gurney's you know, represented by Gurneys in the Sane Asylum.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yes, do you know there's a movie
called Nome King Disney movie. Me and Paul talked about it.
It's a weird one about a tycoon going to the
Redwoods and he finds the Gnomes. Have you heard of
that one?
Speaker 2: I've heard of Red Gnome or no Mobile, But no,
is that what you're talking about? Nomobilemobile? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Noma.
It's about Bohemian grove.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah. That movie is a is an absolute fever dream
and it's it is. Yeah, if we we we covered
that one, I can't. I think we did it in
our Bed Knobs and Broomsticks movie because I think it
featured it was either the same two kids from that
or it was the same two kids from Mary Poppins,
the Mary Poppins Kids. But it's one of those things
that my friend was telling me, Oh, yeah, it's all
about Bohemian Grove. It's like, Okay, now I get it
that you're kind of conflating it. No, it's literally about
this rich California businessman that owns a whole like all
this acreage in the Redwood Foes and that he's going
in there to find this secret society that no one
else knows about and they're they're almost dying out and
he has to find a way to reinvigorate this secret
society and get them the contention. It's like, this is
obviously about Bohemian Grove.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like such switch rules and weird fairy a.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Yeah. The whole point is that they're
trying to find a bunch of chicks that this guy
can just like you know, lay down the law so
that they can repopulate this this gnome which again, if
you know anything about actual Bohemian Grove lore, they've got
this concept call I think it's called Jumping the River
or something, but all these guys go out to this
all men exclusive camp. But right over the river, they've
got like these brothels that people fly out and they
set up in these brothels just to coordinate with when
Bohemian Grove is going to be there, because this is
their busiest time of the year with like the biggest
the biggest payers. So yeah, it was just like, yeah,
Bohemian Grove is always been about going out in the
middle of the woods and doing sex rituals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so in your face when you like actually know
what's going on, they playing in your face. So if
you guys want a great breakdown of Return to OZ,
go to Paranoid Americage channel. And also Jay and Basely
Analyzer did Return to OZ. They did a great three
hour deep dive into that a year ago, so check
that out. The only thing I didn't mention was, let's
see Curly ank Ulter a diary of a drug fiend.
Oh okay, so drugs and all of that like stuff
comes from Curly Emerald Tablets of Thoth is the Emerald City.
What do you think of that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also what was leading you to the emerald
tablets of both in the original movie was like the
big opium fields right well, which was another like this
inebriation concept that like you have to go through like
another altered state of consciousness before you can fully get there.
Speaker 1: M So it's a shamanic journey also, Yeah, that.
Speaker 2: And also maybe even a like a defense mechanism that
if you get so enamored with the opium fields before
you get there, that'll weed out a lot of the
people that maybe don't have the best intentions to actually
get to the real gems. Like if if you can
be sold on numbing yourself to the rest of the world,
but even through that, if you're still like working towards
this this higher understanding getting you know, getting the Emerald City,
then yes, it's a way of of sort of part
of the initiation ritual. It'll weed out the people that
are not worthy of it.
Speaker 1: Have you seen that esoteric movie Holy Mountain?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah, ya Yahavski movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the at the end of that they get stuck.
A lot of people get stuck at the city right
under the mountain because like you said, they get hold
in the drugs and vices and they never ascend to
the peak because of.
Speaker 2: That part in the scene where they've got like thousands
of saviors, like fallse saviors, So there's so many to
pick frown that no one knows what the real sort
of route is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this tale is more about like the salvation
can be awakened within you, you know, because the parts
of Dorothy have to be reintegrated, the scarecrow, the lion,
the te man, what do you think of Wicked? So
this is gonna be huge? Is it out yet?
Speaker 2: Oh? I I haven't been fombing along other than the
drama between the poster stuff where people were making altered
to posters and now they got the porn site on
the back of the toy and yeah that's all right.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you guys don't know about this. They sent
out this official Wicked doll mattel, you know, like the
Wicked Barbie. It wasn't Barbie, but it was like that,
And then a QR code on the back went right
to a corn site, so they had to recall all
those things and everyone's like, is this on purpose?
Speaker 2: I mean, drop the scan that I'm like when when
the internet just came out, when I was like in college,
I went to hotmail dot com and a l e
on accident or by accident at one time.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm trying to get to hotmail and I
got hot mails. But yeah, so Wicked is coming out.
That was a book, and in that book they actually
say the word theosophy, So it's not we're not just
pegulating like they tell you in the Wicked series, like
this is a theosophical fairy tale. But now they're uh,
spotlighting different characters and they are trying to make us
empathize more with villains. Have you noticed that, like in
the Disney theme park that was going to be another
like old like villain.
Speaker 2: Land, right, and you've got like the Kuela Deville movie
that came out there together. Basically, what do they call
this reht retconning where you retroactively like change the background
of certain characters. And I think part of this too
out outside of the occult version of this, which is
always present, of course, but I would I would almost
always make a good counter argument that just as nefarious
as any of the occult sort of like symbolism they're
trying to bake into this is that just raw commercialism,
and they realize that, man, people love Ursula, people love
Corolla Deville, and we can't really start just selling the
toys because they're bad guys. So if we retcon them
and make them good guys, now we've got this whole
extra set of like nostalgia baked intellectual property that they
haven't even tapped into.
Speaker 1: Yet.
Speaker 2: Another big aspect of this is Disney now has a
card game is similar to like Magic the Gathering. I
don't know if you know about like all these like
dungeons and dragon style cart So their card game called
Laura Canna, and that's another version of Now you can
build a deck with all Disney villains and have it
like work for you. So I do think that there's
an absolute a path where they're paving here to just
market on all this backlog of cool characters that they
can just push that have kind of been just sitting
dormant in the background.
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you seen that Ursula did nothing wrong?
Speaker 3: Meme?
Speaker 2: No, I mean I already agree with it, but no,
what is what's the films.
Speaker 1: Just that she got screwed out of? She's related to
Prince the King Triton somehow, and she got screwed and
you know, Ariel did sign the contract and she tried
to warn her, and you know they stabbed her in
the gat with a ship anyways. Like so yeah, it's
funny how they try and go back and give more
backstory too, because it's true, like mistreated people do become villain.
So that element of it is like be careful what
you did to people, because you might be creating a
super villain.
Speaker 2: Ursula is a really good example of how Disney changes
the DNA these stories around too, because they they created
Ursula so that you had a very specific scapegoat to
kind of blame like all the evils on in this
particular movie. Disney actually does a really good job of
creating a certain villain and like that's the source of
all the bad things in this particular story that becomes Ursula.
But in the original Little Mermaid's story, uh, Christian Andersen,
the bad guy was just the mermaids themselves, Like all
mermaids were kind of bad in this story because mermaids
realized that when they died, they just turned into sand
and they didn't have they didn't ascend to heaven. They
didn't have an afterlife. They had nothing. They just ceased
to exist. And the entire premise a Little Mermaid is
that she wants to have a human soul so that
she can also live in the afterlife, and the only
way to do that is to get this human to
fall in love with you. And in the book, she
doesn't succeed. She does not get the prince to fall
in love with her, so she's condemned to not go
into the afterlife. But then all of her family and
her friends, like I'm just joking, like even Sebastian too,
and like Flounder, like all of her homies under the sea,
they basically tell her, well, if you didn't, if you
didn't love you to get the soul, just kill him
if you if you take him out, then you can
get his soul and then you can have this afterlife.
And the moral in the book was that she was like, no,
I don't want to do that either, but that the
whole premise is that there was no Ursula. It was
just everybody else that was a mermaid. Everyone was jealous
of having this afterlife. Oh so yeah, But in the movie,
it's conveniently like one person that you point to, because
you can't really paint everyone else as the bad guys.
Speaker 1: So you're talking about Hans Christian Anderson.
Speaker 2: Book The Original Little Mermaid. Yeah, the Original Mermaid was
all about she wanted to live on into the afterlife,
and the only way you could do that was to
get a human to willingly kind of give that to
you by falling in love. It's very similar in theme,
I think, to the whole Snow eight and seven Dwarves,
where you have to have an equal exchange, where you're saying, here,
I'm going to share human consciousness and humanity with you
in exchange for this other thing that I'm getting in return.
But in Little Mermaid, she doesn't really offer anything else
to the prince in exchange for that consciousness, and he
ends up falling in love with another human.
Speaker 1: So that's sort of like an elementals journey towards apotheosis,
but humanity is one of the stops. I don't know,
I just pulled that out of nothing. But because the
Nome King what we're talking about, well.
Speaker 2: The Mermaids are very similar to the Nome King and
all the Earth elementals and that, and it's almost like
the fallen angels is another good analogy here, because it's
these things that have existed before humanity, but humanity pops
up and they're like, I want what they have, and
the only way they can get it is usually by
tricking us or doing some sort of bartering system. But
very rarely does it work out if someone tries and
steal humanity or the consciousness and vice versa. Humanity doesn't
work out if it tries to steal the treasures of
the mundane world. There always has to be some sort
of an equal exchange there.
Speaker 1: Well, this has been a great show, perfect everything was great.
We could do this all day. And we're not replacing
Paul Hall. We're gonna do Mars Needs Moms. And a
movie called Red that someone recommended about. It was a
Disney movie called Red, and they said watch it if
you think this is about menstrual cycles.
Speaker 2: So it's like, okay, oh the panda movie, right, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: But maybe if Thomas comes back, would you consider okay? Great,
So maybe we can talk about Walt Disney on the
front lines next time, the military aspect of the whole
Disney Empire. And I want you guys all to go
join the Occult book Club at Paranoid American YouTube.
Speaker 2: Right, yes, thank you, you can go to if you
just go to a Cult book Club dot com, it'll
bring you right to the playlist on YouTube.
Speaker 1: And he's even got a trading card, right And can
you buy these online or do you have to?
Speaker 2: Yes? No, you can get all those on Paranoid American
dot com. That's the occultist Occultest Monday series, which was
a brainchild of Juan jan Ayala of the One on
one podcast. So definitely if you like those occultest Monday's,
definitely check out his work too. TJOJP dot com.
Speaker 1: The Monkeys Possessed states what else you got?
Speaker 2: Wait? And I also worked as a topy of it.
But I've got a book, a comic book that I
made with one called The Homunculous Owner's Manual that walks
through exactly what a homunculus is, all the historical instance
of them. There's a we go into like a Chroleian
homunculus and Epstinian monculus.
Speaker 1: Really is that connected to like the nuclear stop two?
Speaker 2: There we have one of those instances of that too.
It goes over every different version of it, so there's
physical versions, there's actual versions. There's conscious versions of all
these different homunculi.
Speaker 1: Okay, very cool. Well you're a regular now, so I
hope you like it here.
Speaker 2: I love it. This was so cool. I love talking
about this.
Speaker 1: I'm sure everyone's gonna freak out about you. And I
want to thank you so much and we'll see you
guys next time.
Speaker 2: Thank you,