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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanana show.

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I'm here with Thomas and building off of the episode

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that we the Deviation episode from thirty the Thirty Years War,

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in the same in the same subject matter, Thomas is

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gonna jump in, so take it away, Thomas.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about.

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Speaker 3: The relationship of the Third Right to the Islamic World,

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specifically Palestine, and Palestine was absolutely affiliated with the access

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powers in direct capacities, and there is very good offices

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between the Fear and the Grand Mufti ol Hussini, who,

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despite what propaganda and mainstream history suggests he was a

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he came from a lineage that very much had a

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claim to the manual of leadership in Palestine and from

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a very proud lineage that was and remains very respected

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among the Palestinians across the sectarian divide, Christian and Mauslim.

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In order to understand that relationship, though, it's important to

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deal with the relations between the German Reich in the

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Islamic World generally, and early on, the Third Reich viewed

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the Islamic World not in reductionist terms, but as very

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much a political force that had momentum in the historical process.

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But that also was an important ally to the cultivated

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in the war against Bullshevism and Jewry as they viewed it.

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And this wasn't just pragmatic. There was a basic affinity

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there with some qualifications, and this is important. And it's

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impossible to talk about this with people in interrational manner

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because they just go berserk if you mentioned Islam.

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Speaker 2: They've been that brainwashed.

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Speaker 3: Some of these people are just incredibly stupid, but you know,

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the majority continues to take their cues from legacy media

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and from regime ideologies. The only thing comparable to it

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is people go utterly berserk if I attack the president.

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I don't know what they think the president is doing

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for them lately, or why they think he's in some

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incredible personage. But you know, I'm not here to make

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friends or to try and convert stupid people to make

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them intelligent or reasonable.

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Speaker 2: It's just.

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Speaker 3: You know, one of the reasons I disdained social media

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is because it's impossible they have serious conversations there because

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aside from the paid agitators and disruptors, there's just this

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whole peanut gallery of idiots. You think it's like a

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video game or something, and they've decided, they've convinced themselves

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they have some take on everything, and even though they

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spend their days like exclusively in their own house or Walmart,

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they decided they have some take on Islam where they

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have no understanding of it whatsoever. So not just I mean,

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don't get me wrong, I'm very blessed there's anybody who

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spends time with capital t traditionalists authors, you know Mercia

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Eliotti Renegan on particularly because I mean, obviously he was

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a Sufi Maslim, Julius evil.

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Speaker 2: They all rode extensive way.

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Speaker 3: On a dar al Islam and Muhammad and his role

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in the historical process and things like that, and obviously

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I've got a fair amount of Mauslim comrades on the ground. Well,

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she and Sunny, you know, we're both good friends and

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reliable partisans. But who I can seek out to discuss

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compared to theology within things. So I'm not suggesting I'm

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isolating in that regard. It just it reaffirms why I

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am a vanguardist, because most people aren't built for this

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in all kinds of ways, and they don't even have

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their own prejudices. Their prejudices are are Jewish prejudices, or

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they're ones that you know they gleaned from from legacy

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media apparatus, or or a fucking around on the Internet

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with the people who are probably paid agitators, or like

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random guys in India or something just saying things. It's

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it's like it's staggering to re of ignorance. But anyway,

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I'll stop ranting at the subs. The general disposition of

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the Reich towards Islam, the Islamic world, like I said,

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they viewed it as a global force that was playing

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an essential role in the unfolding historical process. They also

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predicted that although there wouldn't there wasn't going to be

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the imminent orders of a new caliphate to replace the

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Sea of Daryl Islam that obviously was vacated by the

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collapse of the Ottomans. And to be clear that the

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Kaiser Reich and the Ottoman Empire were very close allies.

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So the Germans had a particularly the German academ which

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had a very strong Orientalist bent, and the Foreign service,

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many of whom remained.

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Speaker 2: Into the Third Reich. They had a.

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Speaker 3: Fairly highly developed understanding of Islam and of the several

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cultures that constituted. And obviously, as the war went on,

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the non European territories that were directly occupied by Wehrmacht

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were largely Islamic countries, and Sarajevo, which is the seed

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of European Islam, was occupied by by the Reich. So

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that's that's important. All these all these variables intertwined. And

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as I've written about in my manuscript, and I believe

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I've discussed here with Pete previously, the massacres. They it's

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the annihilation therapy that was perpetuated against minority elements in

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the nascent Turkish state. The world came to know about

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that owing to a maximum shooting a Richter who was

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deployed there, and he alerted both the Red Cross and the.

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Speaker 2: And and you know, the Berlin.

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Speaker 3: Foreign Office, and he was told to know on certain terms,

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to stop agitating for some sort of localized intervention or

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relief for these people, because relations with Ankara are very important,

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especially in these times of uncertainty. And I make the

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point that well, you know, and on shooting the rictor

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he fell at the at the Munich pouch in November

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nineteen twenty three, and Hitler what on record is saying

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that he was the one. He said the party never

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recovered from the death of shooting a rictor.

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Speaker 2: He was an essential.

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Speaker 3: Personage to the National Socialist Party and the revolution. And

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so I make the point in a manuscript. So if

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if from inception the NSDAP was this hyper racialized, you know,

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murderous conspiratorial cadre that simply hated all non Riian races,

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why was Richter the only man who was raising alarm

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about what was happening in an Asia Minor? Nobody seems

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to be able to answer that question for me. They

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simply ignore it, or sam lying, or move on without

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addressing it.

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Speaker 2: But be as it may.

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Speaker 3: The Third Reich, although arguably there's the deepest sort of

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diplomatic rapport and cultural rapport enjoyed with Daryl Islam, the

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other major Access nations made similar efforts to curate and

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mobilize Islamic support. Mussolini he famously, I mean, this was

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very performative and very stage managed. But in nineteen thirty

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seven he arranged for this ceremony where he was presented

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with a quote sort of Islam at a public ceremony

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in Tripoli, symbolically holding himself and the Kingdom of Italy

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out as a as a as a protector of the

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Maslim world against against communism, and he went on to

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declare that the quote laws of the prophet would would

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be honored. Gebels actually made a note of this, and

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his diaries prolific as he was as a diary, it

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was one of the reasons there's such a valuable artifact.

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He had kind of a cynical take on this. He said,

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you know, the duche never never passes up an opportunity

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to glorify himself as the protector of other people's you know,

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which was which was true? And I don't I don't

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think Duce had some deep affinity for his lom Or

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spent much time learning about its theological precepts. But it

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was imperative, particularly considering the primary battle space that Italy

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was committed to with that juncture, to try and curate

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the support these people, or at least mitigate any hostility

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that might be emergent otherwise. Similarly, the the Shintoist Japan,

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they established the Greater Japan Islamic League and simultaneously the

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Tokyo Mosque was established at nineteen thirty eight, and.

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Speaker 2: They very much.

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Speaker 3: Dedicated a lot of effort and resources, both military and

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capital to encouraging in Islamic uprising against the Dutch, you know,

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and radicalizing people in the in the Dutch Indies against them,

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both the British and and the Midlanders. And like I

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said this in the case of the right, this long

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predated the national socialist revolution.

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Speaker 2: The central powers, you know, particularly the Kaiser right.

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Speaker 3: The Ottoman Empire was an essential ally theirs, and until

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they got knocked out of the war, they played an

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essential role in allowing Germany to sustain a two front conflict.

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There's so much emphasis on the Western Front and the

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Maelstrom and slaughter that that represented. There's not enough inc

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dedicated to the US Front of World War One, where

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it wasn't the stalemate that it came to pass in

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the West because the open Step precluded it and facilitated maneuver.

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Poison gas was used to greater effect in in the

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East as well. And obviously you know until the when

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when when the after the Rustian Revolution, the the Reichs

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fail was victorious. I mean, that was one of the

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big soar points of the of the military in the

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wake of Versailles, is they were forced to give up

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these territories that they won on the battlefield.

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Speaker 2: But you know, before.

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Speaker 3: An entire army deployed to the east was freed up,

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you know, by the Red Revolution and the Treaty of

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Breast the Tusk. The Ottomans were playing an essential role

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in the Kaiser re jew strategic flank. And Wilhelm, who

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was not any kind of great diplomat or strategic thinker,

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he went out of his way to sustain good offices

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with the Ottomans. You know, whole Vegg was very much

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the political mind behind the kaiser Reich, but the Kaiser himself,

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particularly in dealing with you know, fellow monarchs, and uh,

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make the mistake, you know, the even in its waiting days,

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an Ottoman sultan, that great authority, it was essential for.

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Speaker 2: It. Dictates and.

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Speaker 3: Declarations and as well as insinuations both subtle and flagrant,

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come from the Kaiser himself. But you know, so German

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Atoman authorities, they collaborated and trying to cultivate Pan Islamic

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consciousness in North Africa and the Near East and Russia

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and India. I mean, this was this was a long

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standing effort. It's not just a question that emerged in

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nineteen thirty nine and in in World War Two as

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the himnachsaf ss. Even early on, as they found themselves

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deployed to Islamic lands, German authorities were explicit that Islam

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was of political importance and sold out and were instructed

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to respect religious customs and show respect for Islam when

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dealing with Moslems, and and to treat them as friendlies

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unless they you know, he exhibited disrespect for the Reich.

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It's it's heraldry or or for you know, the the

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personal honor a soldiers and officers.

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Speaker 2: On the ust front.

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Speaker 3: The uh, the Reich one as far as they were,

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the re establishment of mosques and madrasses, and they set

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aside pious endowments for the re establishment of Islamic religious life.

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Speaker 2: I mean they did.

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Speaker 3: They did the same thing with with Orthodox churches. But

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I mean that goes up saying if you know the

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history of the conflict and the political side of things,

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but uh, you know, they this went a long way

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to undermining the Soviet rule because Moslims were targeted with

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as much hostility as as the Orthodox were, you know,

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and Gurbles themselves made the point that the early Soviet

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cadres in KVD and the Czech They they hated the

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Moslems rethno sectarian reasons as much as they did the Christians,

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and viewed them as their repressors and did incredibly brutal

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things and tried to tried to tried to extricate relateous

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sensibility from Islamic communities Vermunt authorities. Also, they're very much cultivated,

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you know, the Ulama in Eastern territories and the Balkans especially,

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That's how headway was made. And as Uh the Balkan

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theater became this counterinsurgency quagmire that became very important. And

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Ante Pavolch Poglovnik of the Independent State of Croatia, he

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was raised in a town early in his life that

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had a very large Maslim population. And Uh Pavolos himself,

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he knew a lot about Islam and their rituals. There's

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a photographs of him wearing a fez when he's meeting

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with Bosniaks. It's very interesting and he he famously he

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viewed Bosniaks as quote racial Croatians and Sunni Islam. Uh

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was viewed as a state relied religion alongside Roman Catholicism,

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albeit secondary secondarily to it. But that that that that

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that sort of expedited this these efforts in the Balden Theater,

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which would have been a lot more difficult if the

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used to show was openly hostile to UH Bosnia populations

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and UH the UH the vermackd and UH the buff

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and SS they they granted a lot of religious freedom

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to Moslim recruits and UH Moslim formations. The religious calendar

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was taken into uh account dietary laws with respect to

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you know, the mess hall and things. Both of Vermacht

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and of off On SSS had emms service chaplains, and

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they launched h ideological education programs to explicate how you know,

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a Moslim should live as a national socialist, you know,

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and what the meaning was of national socialism to non

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Germanic yet Allied races. This was very, very detailed, whatever

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if any whether anybody agrees with this or not, you know.

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And these education programs were almost unfailingly delivered by by

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military emams. The only times they weren't is when an

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imam wasn't available, and Bosniak imams in particular played an

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outsized role. Again, Sarah Jevo only about two million Moslims

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lived in Sarajevo, but that's the European seed of Islam,

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and UH.

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Speaker 2: The way Moslims viewed it throughout the.

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Speaker 3: Moslim diaspora was, you know, being being sort of the

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seed of Islamic culture in Europe and also being very

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directly threatened by by Communism. There was a peculiar interest

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in the fortunes of the Bosniaks of Sarajevo and reciprocally

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pious Sunnis, you know, pious UH, the Bosniak Sunnis. They

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they had a strong interest in the fortunes of their

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coreligion is you know, behind the they were still behind

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the verbial wire in the Soviet Union.

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Speaker 2: And in UH in Palestine. You know, the.

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Speaker 3: UH military formal military policy towards Islamic peoples, and UH

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brought strategic terms.

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Speaker 2: Really that.

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Speaker 3: Policy paradigm first originated on July twenty fifth, nineteen forty,

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just after the fall of France, you know, and as

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the Battle of Britain was getting underway, a man named

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Max van Oppenheim. He was a retired diplomat and an

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Orientalist scholar. He spontaneously sent a memorandum, a seven page

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memorandum to the Foreign Office suggesting that it was both

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imperative to cultivate the populations and the enemies Islamic territories

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and do everything possible to incite a rebellion against the

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British authorities there, and moving forward to give whatever military material,

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aid and diplomatic encouragement as was reasonable and feasible, you know,

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And he said if he said, the time is nigh

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for a comprehensive strategy to mobilize the Islamic world against

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the British Empire. But he said, also if the British

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have time to consolidate forces and suppress a nascent rebellion,

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and well meanwhile holding you know, German forces at bay

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in theater, the opportunity will not repeat. He's also Oppenheim

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who'd spent most of his adult life traveling, and he

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is traveling and living in the Islamic world. He'd reached

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out directly as a private person since his retirement. He

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was in his early eighties. I believe to pan Islamic

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religious figures like Shakib Arslan and more most significantly to

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the Grand Mufti aminel Hussini, and they became very close

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and largely at Oppenneim's be hast. Hitler, who had a

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somewhat tempestuous relationship with the Foreign Office, he took this

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seriously and German officers were deployed to the entire Moslim

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corridor where there was a British imperial presence from Egypt

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to India. And of course subsequently the Grand moved Yea

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Lucenia was able to gain a personal audience of the Hitler,

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and we'll get to that, but this was the this

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was the origin of what became a a strategic imperative

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in political and military terms. I mean, that's important for

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its own sake, but also the Ribbontrop's other cast is

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some sort of fool or an incompetant, or the foreign

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officers cast is in the same sort of terms as

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the app there as this sort of a positive a

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fifth columnists. And Hitler's cast is this provincial nationalist who

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didn't understand the felt politique. I mean, all that is ridiculous.

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And this the relationship of the Reich to the Islamic

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world in particulars stands in a rebuttal to that inference.

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And so this is an important subject matter for that reason.

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And Oppenheim he he'd served in the kaiser Reich for

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decades and there's few people then living who knew as

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much about Islam and Islamic societies as he did, and

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more than any one man, he was responsible for shaping

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the Kaiser's disposition towards Islam generally. He was trained as

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a lawyer. By education, he'd become fluent in several Middle

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Eastern languages, including you know, various Arab dialects, as well

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as Turkish. He traveled for years through Africa and the

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Middle East, and in eighteen ninety six when he was

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officially recruited by the Foreign Office, he subsequently posted for

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twelve years in Cairo, where he directly monitored political developments

303
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and cultivated and enduring relationships with Arab in Islamic leadership.

304
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In Sudan during the Mahdi rebellion, he'd been on the

305
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ground there and what he attested to in subsequent years

306
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was that's when he first encountered is Lam as a

307
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political force. He always understood the deeply integral structure of

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Islam and conceptual terms, but this had all been at

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stress act or academic until this point. In Sudan, he

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came to realize that Islam had a strong role to

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play in the Burgening political process, that.

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Speaker 2: It had an.

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Speaker 3: Ability to animate pious elements towards direct military action, and

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therein it was a force multiplier, And that there is

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a peculiar interplay of deep theology and political and military

316
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imperatives in the Islamic world, and the Western power that

317
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could integrate that into its own political soldiery would carry

318
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the day in theater, and he he'd been able to

319
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gain Oppenheim, had he'd been able to gain audiences with

320
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the Ottoman Sultan, with a number of other luminaries, both

321
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reactionaries and reformers. What they were hold in common was

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a belief and advocacy of the pan Islamic cause in

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lieu of this sort of narrow ethno nationalism that was

324
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still characteristic in the colonized world in substantial measure. And

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Oppenheim's dispatches were delivered personally to the Kaiser, who basically

326
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viewed them as gospel in terms of how to proceed

327
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in the Near East and North Africa. And the Kaiser Wilhelm,

328
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for all of his shortcomings, was for myriad and he

329
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was in many respects. The Reich was unfortunately saddled with him,

330
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he did delegate to experts. That the other reason Halvegg

331
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subsequently had the sort of power he did. And on

332
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matters relating to h veldt politique, the Kaiser tended to

333
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defer to people he viewed as the experts.

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Speaker 2: And that's very Prussian.

335
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Speaker 3: And that's why, despite Germany not having a global profile

336
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in terms of directly colonies in the way that the

337
00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:07,680
United Kingdom or France, or the Spanish or the Portuguese did,

338
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:18,359
they tend to do do very well at at cultivating

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allies in the developing world. And this went uh. Some

340
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of this was and we'll get into this in our

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00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:38,680
Thirty Years War series. Isn't a side I want to

342
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,839
cover this one I'm about to discuss as well as

343
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the sort of proxy war that was going on in

344
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Japan during the Thirty Years War between the Catholics and

345
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specifically Dutch Reformed elements. But the the Ottomans had granted

346
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asylum to Protestants, both Lutheran and Reformed, who were either

347
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refugees of hostilities in the thirties War or were wanted

348
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:14,960
by the Inquisition, and a sort of cultural rapport developed

349
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between Protestant Germany and Sunni Islam, and I think that

350
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,920
that's something that's understated and a lot of these otherwise

351
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:39,359
very complete accounts of the subject matter, but even limited

352
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:46,519
as the Kaiser ex colonial profile was, the Kaiser right

353
00:33:46,759 --> 00:33:52,000
did in the colonies that did have rule over did

354
00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:55,960
rule over Islamic populations in Togo and Cameroon, in Germany,

355
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:06,200
East Africa now and maybe a you know, and obviously

356
00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:10,480
it was far easier. I mean, I mean, Africans are

357
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,199
subterre and Africans are are just challenges to managing those

358
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populations just because of profound alienage. It's it's obviously, but

359
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:28,000
the colonial authorities obviously found it easier to deal with

360
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Islamic elements than pagan ones who ascribed to some sort

361
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:42,599
of folk animism or something, and from the outset curated

362
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good offices with Islamic elements in these territories, and local

363
00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:55,079
Islamic structures weren't disturbed so long as Muslim leaders accepted

364
00:34:55,079 --> 00:35:00,960
the colonial presence. In German Africa, sharia kor it's recognized

365
00:35:02,159 --> 00:35:08,400
Islamic endowments were we weren't touched or text madrasas were

366
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:17,519
left open, religious holidays were acknowledged, and the Germans, uh wisely,

367
00:35:18,599 --> 00:35:23,960
they ruled through Maslim intermediaries and Islamic dignitaries. You weren't

368
00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:28,920
generally going to be visited in your township by some

369
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,480
by by by a white man or a German colonial administrator,

370
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and it'd be an African Maslim intermediary.

371
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Speaker 2: Or a.

372
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Speaker 3: Respected man in in in the local mosque who you

373
00:35:44,639 --> 00:35:48,400
deal with, and he in turn to deal with the Germans.

374
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And on the one hand this left colonial governor somewhat isolated.

375
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But on the other hand, it also meant that these

376
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,840
intermediaries they had the might of you know, the Kaiser

377
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,519
right behind them an event of an uprising, So indirect

378
00:36:11,599 --> 00:36:20,199
rule was highly effective, and that it's not discussed enough that, again,

379
00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:25,280
in comparative terms limited as the German colonial profile and

380
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:32,960
experience was, it very much was a school of political rule,

381
00:36:34,119 --> 00:36:37,679
you know, and a high political intrigue, and they were

382
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:38,440
very good at it.

383
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,679
Speaker 2: And I think that's.

384
00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:49,599
Speaker 3: I think I think that's not often enough acknowledged, other

385
00:36:49,639 --> 00:36:56,800
than in very perfunctory terms. And this also led to

386
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,360
as these kinds of colonial as more and more business

387
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:08,199
was done in the colonies and as a geostrategic imperative

388
00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:12,760
developed around the German presence therapy. There was more and

389
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,239
more of these sort of colonial congresses formal and informal

390
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,559
between military and political and business authorities.

391
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: Within the Kaiser Reich.

392
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 3: This led to the development of a a cadre of

393
00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:42,159
experts in Islamic studies in German academ and there was

394
00:37:42,199 --> 00:37:47,800
always a streak of Orientalism in modern German academ anyway,

395
00:37:49,119 --> 00:37:56,719
but these guys who previously really only were focused on

396
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:07,159
classical Islam and you know, the their relations with the

397
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:14,880
Greeks and things, they shifted their conceptual focus very much,

398
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,400
I think the contemporary Moslim world and what a proper

399
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:28,639
imperial policy should be towards Islam qua Islam, and there

400
00:38:28,639 --> 00:38:35,880
really wasn't something comparable in the UK or France. There

401
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,519
was philology type stuff, and you know, obviously a very

402
00:38:39,519 --> 00:38:48,119
advanced cultural anthropology, but a kind of political science of

403
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:58,079
how European Christiandom should index with Islam and power political

404
00:38:58,119 --> 00:39:09,239
capacities that was pretty much exclusive to the Reich. There

405
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:17,639
was a German Colonial Institute formally established. One of their

406
00:39:17,679 --> 00:39:26,880
big luminaries was a guy named Karl Heinrich Becker, and

407
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,239
a couple of his colleagues Martin Hartman and D. D.

408
00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:31,159
Speaker 2: Vestermann.

409
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,039
Speaker 3: Becker was was centered in Hamburg, Hartman and Vestman in Berlin.

410
00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:46,920
They placed themselves in their faculty at the full disposal

411
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:58,039
of the German Empire, and the entirety of their labors

412
00:39:58,079 --> 00:40:06,280
and their endowment was put in the service of investigating

413
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,280
and studying Islam, and the colony is accumulating knowledge on

414
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:22,719
its spread, historical, contemporary, its impact on power political affairs.

415
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:29,880
There was these massive surveys undertaken by Becker, Hartman Investorman

416
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,079
in ninety six, ninety eleven, in ninety thirteen respectively, which

417
00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:43,679
were then submitted to the Kaiser, through the Colonial Institute,

418
00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:50,480
to the Foreign Office onward to the Kaiser, and this

419
00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:57,119
became a you know, viewed as power political dogma in

420
00:40:57,199 --> 00:41:01,480
terms of how to proceed in in policy terms, both

421
00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:10,800
formally and you know, the Low Board, the German Society

422
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:16,039
for the Study of Islam, it published a periodical Defelt

423
00:41:16,119 --> 00:41:25,519
the Islams the World of Islam, and that became regarded

424
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:34,760
as the seminal European academic journal on on contemporary Islamic

425
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:43,400
faith and practice and politics. And you know, most people too,

426
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:52,320
even in the UK, which opposedly is full of these

427
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,800
you know, progressives and people who have a saying progressives

428
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,360
and know what they're talking aboutbviously don't, but it'sacter ized

429
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,039
supposedly by this this sort of progressive sensibility an academ

430
00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:08,000
And then on the other hand, these sort of machiavellian

431
00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:13,920
types of a deep understanding of alien cultures.

432
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:19,039
Speaker 2: And how to establish and maintain power.

433
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: They're in most of the most of these German experts,

434
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,639
their counterparts, they they just looked at, uh, you know,

435
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,880
indigenous religions, whether they actually were savage, you know, forms

436
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,880
of animism or paganism, and is Lam is just so

437
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:41,360
much you know, so much nonsense or something you know, primitive.

438
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:49,239
It was, Uh, it was these German philologists and cultural

439
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:58,039
studies types and orientalists who you know, emphasize with the

440
00:42:58,079 --> 00:43:04,400
Kaiser and demonstrated within and without of their own cutsure

441
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:11,079
to academ You know, look, this is Islam is a

442
00:43:11,079 --> 00:43:19,119
a formative civilizing element. The uh higher races within Daryl Islam,

443
00:43:19,519 --> 00:43:22,119
if you'll allow the descriptor.

444
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 2: Produce extraordinarily high culture.

445
00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:31,519
Speaker 3: And Islam is brought millions by millions of people out

446
00:43:31,519 --> 00:43:36,199
of ignorance and savagery and even if one doesn't accept

447
00:43:36,199 --> 00:43:43,199
that it's a singular power, political force that is playing

448
00:43:43,199 --> 00:43:49,239
an essential role in the political process underway in the

449
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,719
then nast in twentieth century. And to be clear, you know,

450
00:43:53,800 --> 00:44:01,760
this is when Christianity was under full assault by the Communists, and.

451
00:44:03,199 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 2: It was uh.

452
00:44:05,639 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 3: When this, however, can try to me have been this

453
00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:15,239
enforced secularism reigned throughout the Western world. That's one of

454
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,639
the things that set the stage for the Bolshevik Revolution.

455
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,159
Speaker 2: You know, So.

456
00:44:23,679 --> 00:44:32,119
Speaker 3: Islam is this catalyzing element really stood alone among world religions.

457
00:44:32,119 --> 00:44:34,760
I mean, don't get me wrong, I there.

458
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 2: Was, there was.

459
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 3: Pious Christians who are quite literally waging a holy war

460
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:47,159
against the Communists. And I yes, I believe in in

461
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:53,159
symbolic psychological terms and anthropological terms that all politics is

462
00:44:53,239 --> 00:45:00,440
essentially theological. But I'm talking in terms of conscious religious

463
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:12,840
practice and the ability of religious imperatives to anime political affairs.

464
00:45:13,559 --> 00:45:17,559
In the early twentieth century, Islam really stood alone in

465
00:45:17,559 --> 00:45:19,719
that capacity at global scale.

466
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: That's what I'm talking about.

467
00:45:21,559 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 3: For clarity, and that this was not lost obviously on these.

468
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,599
Speaker 2: These people that were talking.

469
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:48,639
Speaker 3: About probably the best known political theorists who devised a

470
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:53,920
practice of imperial rule visa the Islam was Karl Heinrich Becker.

471
00:45:57,559 --> 00:46:01,440
He emphasized again and again he said Islam wasn't, as

472
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,400
the British claim, a threat to colonial government. He said,

473
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,239
not only is it not a threat, but that it

474
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,760
should and can be used to bolster imperial rule and

475
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:20,519
to guarantee peace stability in public order. He said that

476
00:46:21,679 --> 00:46:28,760
the main reason why the white Western powers were coming

477
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:34,320
into hostile contact with Islamic cultures was because they were

478
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:39,920
either treating Moslim populations like they were animatester pagan savages,

479
00:46:41,039 --> 00:46:48,559
or they were viewing observance of Islamic practice as somehow

480
00:46:48,599 --> 00:47:00,760
inherently subversive, you know, And that integral aspect of Islam

481
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:06,320
not only did it render it an essential, essentially political

482
00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:14,559
confession in a way that other face or not, but

483
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:24,519
it also meant that to attack any aspect of its observance.

484
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:26,599
Speaker 2: Was to.

485
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 3: Attack every aspect of the reigning way of life in theater.

486
00:47:37,159 --> 00:47:46,000
And this wasn't a minority opinion among the German colonial authorities,

487
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:54,000
both political, diplomatic and military. German colonial officers didn't have

488
00:47:54,079 --> 00:47:57,360
a hostile disposition towards Islam.

489
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 2: And.

490
00:48:00,159 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 3: They correctly viewed the anti imperialist elements and the pro

491
00:48:05,079 --> 00:48:09,480
communist elements in theater that claimed to be Pan Islamic.

492
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:17,599
They weren't really because the two. It was an irreconcilable Veltisham.

493
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:28,400
There was superficially Islamist language in Moscow's propaganda as well

494
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:39,639
as within some of these anti colonial ideological subcultures, but

495
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:46,840
there was no depth to it. Johann von Leers, and

496
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,800
we'll get into him next episode.

497
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 2: He's a.

498
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 3: Lesser known personage within the Third Reich, and it was

499
00:48:59,039 --> 00:49:04,400
an essential personator to the to the to the national

500
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,559
Insulti's resistance of the day of defeat. I hold him

501
00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:13,199
in great esteem. But he correctly recognized Islam's not reactionary.

502
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:19,559
In fact, it tends towards a revolutionary paradigm, but it

503
00:49:19,639 --> 00:49:26,159
is socially conservative in in terms of its view of authority.

504
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: And a assaultant.

505
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:44,119
Speaker 3: Or a king, or a colonial governor or a procurator

506
00:49:44,519 --> 00:49:48,119
or or an occupying in general, even if he himself

507
00:49:48,199 --> 00:49:51,320
is not of the faith and not of your people,

508
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:58,320
if he protects Islam from its enemies and allows the

509
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:03,039
free observance of Islam, you were obligated as a good

510
00:50:03,119 --> 00:50:21,440
Moslem to not revolt against him. For example, Wilhelm went

511
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:26,159
as far as he in the autumn eighteen ninety eight,

512
00:50:28,679 --> 00:50:35,599
he the Kaiser went on a tour of the German

513
00:50:35,679 --> 00:50:38,960
colonies and of the Holy Land and the Middle East generally,

514
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:49,320
and he visited Damascus specifically to visit the tomb of Salhadeen,

515
00:50:50,599 --> 00:50:56,360
and he gave a speech to all these you know,

516
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,840
assembled masses of people where he declared himself to be

517
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,280
a friend of his lab and the German Empire, to

518
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:10,719
be a friend of Islam and of quote the world's

519
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:18,960
three hundred million Mohammedians, you know, to give you an

520
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:27,239
idea of the priority that Berlin put on the cultivation

521
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:28,320
of this relationship.

522
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 2: It wasn't.

523
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 3: Just a minor consideration emergent in the Foreign Office or

524
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:43,280
or something that Colonial Office officers posted in theater. You know,

525
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:51,880
we're we're we're trying to force the Kaiser and the

526
00:51:51,880 --> 00:52:00,360
government to take notice of you know, and uh, this

527
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,559
paid uh this, this, this paid dividends. I mean not

528
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:10,480
you know again, not only uh did it maintain good

529
00:52:10,519 --> 00:52:12,880
offices with the Ottomans, who were in real trouble then,

530
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,320
but who were an essentral ally you know, within the

531
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:23,440
boundar rationality of the power political paradigm that you know,

532
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:33,960
reached critical Zenas in ninety fourteen. But there there was

533
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:40,760
an enduring affinity between the Reich, the German people, and

534
00:52:41,159 --> 00:52:44,039
Dar Al Islam that endured to the Cold War. In

535
00:52:44,039 --> 00:52:48,719
my opinion, you know, it was h this is a

536
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,239
bit of a tangent, but you know, the only the

537
00:52:52,239 --> 00:53:00,239
only Marxist Leninist Arab state was South Yemen, and it

538
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:04,840
was a cadre of East Germans who really were the

539
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:15,800
intermediary between the Warsaw Pact, the East Bloc and and

540
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:25,800
and the uh, the indigenous Arabs there that uh the

541
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:33,119
book uh John Kuhler is this uh cold war State

542
00:53:33,159 --> 00:53:37,239
department guy. He wrote a really interesting book on the Stazi.

543
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:42,920
I mean, he's very much a a pro regime kind

544
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,880
of guy, cold warrior type, but he and I believe

545
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,280
he was probably like a lot of State Department people.

546
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:52,800
I think he was probably an intelligence guy under diplomatic cover.

547
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 2: But he, uh, he wrote.

548
00:53:58,079 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 3: About the the Stazi, the National Folks Armies presence in Yemen.

549
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,800
You know, he tried to cast as Pejoritaly as possible,

550
00:54:08,559 --> 00:54:11,440
you know, suggesting that you know, all these these these

551
00:54:11,519 --> 00:54:16,000
Germans swearing around like colonial overlord. It's like, well, ay,

552
00:54:16,039 --> 00:54:18,800
they're doing something right that the yemen the Yemenis didn't

553
00:54:19,159 --> 00:54:21,440
didn't open fire on him instead of packing. I mean,

554
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:27,840
I and the Yemen's aren't exactly the people who who

555
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,360
take a knee for others, just because you know, if anything,

556
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:38,119
there as uh impossible to govern as the past tunes

557
00:54:38,119 --> 00:54:41,119
and they it was it was the DDR that really

558
00:54:41,119 --> 00:54:45,280
sold him on the idea of a Stalinism. I mean,

559
00:54:45,639 --> 00:54:53,360
there's South South Yemen. There there's a confusing pastiche of

560
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:58,039
of of of political intrigues in Yemen. But I mean, obviously,

561
00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:01,559
and I'm not suggesting that the soul or even the

562
00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:05,159
primary approximate cause of them aligned with the East Block

563
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:11,599
was East German persuasiveness or intrigues. But interestingly they're one

564
00:55:11,639 --> 00:55:16,519
of the one of the Yemeny militias today in the

565
00:55:16,559 --> 00:55:19,960
south of the country. They ride under the flag of

566
00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:26,920
South Yemen, you know, uh and they claim uh at

567
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:28,320
a Drake lineage to that.

568
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 2: Polity, you know. So it's that there's something there, but yeah,

569
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:42,119
that I think that should be adequate foundation. Man, there's

570
00:55:42,119 --> 00:55:43,440
still there's a couple other.

571
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:52,280
Speaker 3: Authors I want to get into relating to the Orientalists

572
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,320
academic culture and in the Kaiser Reik and then later

573
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:58,559
the Third Reich and the impact that had on.

574
00:56:00,519 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 2: Conceptual matters.

575
00:56:04,159 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 3: But I want to get into the Grand Moftiel Hussini

576
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:15,000
and Palestine and it's status as an access element and things,

577
00:56:15,039 --> 00:56:17,199
and then I promise after that we'll get back to

578
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,559
the Thirty Years War. But this is important then, it's

579
00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:21,400
it's particularly timely in my opinion.

580
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: Okay, do you think you're gonna be able to talk

581
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,000
about the ground Moftie and Ben von Leers in one

582
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:31,840
episode or is this possibly going to be three?

583
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:32,679
Speaker 2: Yeah?

584
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 3: They might go three, but I'll see what I can do.

585
00:56:35,199 --> 00:56:36,920
I'll try and expedite it.

586
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 1: Well, don't yeah, don't leave anything out just to uh,

587
00:56:41,159 --> 00:56:43,719
you know, we can do three episodes. That'll be perfectly fun.

588
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,679
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, thanks for hosting me.

589
00:56:48,199 --> 00:56:51,639
Speaker 1: Of course, always head on over at Thomas A Substack

590
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,320
real Thomas seven to seven seven dot substack dot com

591
00:56:55,960 --> 00:57:01,159
and his website is Thomas tom seven to seven seven

592
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:04,920
dot com. The t is a seven and you can

593
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,920
connect to everything from either one of those places. And

594
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:09,559
if you want to try and find him on X

595
00:57:09,599 --> 00:57:14,719
where where you know, his account could be gone one

596
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,960
day and back the next constantly.

597
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 3: I mean X is an ex as a total pile

598
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,000
of ship like it, like it really is. I I

599
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,639
I'm not trying to play murder, but I only maintain

600
00:57:26,679 --> 00:57:30,320
an account there because people for some reason can't move

601
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,280
on from it. And it's it's kind of the one

602
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,480
stuff place, the index of people and stuff.

603
00:57:39,039 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: As a kid say, as a kid say, or used

604
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,599
to say this, this phrase is probably uh played out

605
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:47,559
by now. It's really fake and gay.

606
00:57:48,199 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 2: Yeah it's garbage. It's garbage, and yeah it's fake and

607
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:52,639
gay as well.

608
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 1: All right, Thomas taching a couple of days.

609
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 2: Thank you.

610
00:57:57,719 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peakingiana Show.

611
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:05,679
Thomas is back for part two, talking about the relationship

612
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:11,599
between Islam and not only the Third Reich, but you

613
00:58:11,639 --> 00:58:14,199
know you talked about the Kaiser years in the first part,

614
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:15,559
so jump right in.

615
00:58:17,039 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 2: Thanks. Yeah.

616
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 3: And subsequently, I at least want to dedicate a brief

617
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:31,639
addendum to discussing the post war resistance in exile and

618
00:58:33,639 --> 00:58:39,559
how that dovetailed with the cause of Palestinian liberation and

619
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,719
Pan Islamic consciousness. Generally, I think we got into some

620
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:50,199
of that when we were talking about the post war

621
00:58:50,239 --> 00:58:55,079
diasp of National Socialists in exile. We were talking about

622
00:58:55,079 --> 00:59:00,719
how der Veg with Johann von Weir's as well as

623
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:06,800
Otto Rimer and Hans Rudel, was a major contributor to

624
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,920
both in terms of his work product and capital investment.

625
00:59:11,519 --> 00:59:17,360
And when Argentina was no longer a friendly environment for

626
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:21,800
that sort of partisan activity owing to Perone being forced

627
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:26,280
out of office, Von Leers made his way to the

628
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:34,000
Court of Nasser, and Egypt and Syria in particular were

629
00:59:34,719 --> 00:59:39,079
very much the loci of that kind of partisan activity,

630
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:45,159
and that's significant because that plays into.

631
00:59:46,519 --> 00:59:47,679
Speaker 2: The not just.

632
00:59:47,679 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 3: The military culture of the region on the Arab side,

633
00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:01,639
many of whom were trained by for or National Socialists

634
01:00:02,719 --> 01:00:08,559
and Behrmax veterans, but also it impacted the culture of

635
01:00:08,599 --> 01:00:13,400
resistance in profound ways, and that's something that's overlooked. And

636
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:20,840
we talked a bit about the odd dialectics of the

637
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:27,159
DDR and the Rote Army fraction and Horse de Mahler. Obviously,

638
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,000
the element he was representing when he was on the

639
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:35,519
ground in the levant was there of the DDR and

640
01:00:35,559 --> 01:00:41,000
the Rote Army fraction, but he did a lot to

641
01:00:41,039 --> 01:00:49,239
facilitate deep contact and operational interdependence with the Popular Front

642
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:55,039
for the Liberation at Palestine and the PLO and things,

643
01:00:55,559 --> 01:01:01,280
and this all ties together, not just conceptually, but in

644
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,599
terms of a common nucleus of operative fact.

645
01:01:05,679 --> 01:01:11,719
Speaker 2: If that makes sense. I let me see. I try.

646
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:16,679
Speaker 3: I always try to indicate in my outlines where I

647
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:21,360
leave off. So if I'm repeating myself, please let me

648
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:25,679
know I speaking of I raised mind lyrics. If memory serves,

649
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,840
we left off talking about vvon Lears and some of

650
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:33,400
his work early on and after the National Socialist Revolution,

651
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:37,920
as early as ninety thirty four to thirty five, he

652
01:01:38,119 --> 01:01:48,760
was attempting to create good offices with you know, European

653
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:55,760
Moslims in the Balkans as well as with the elements

654
01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:01,800
in Palestine and behind the the verbial wire in the

655
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:06,760
Soviet Union, and von Lears very much had the ear

656
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:13,119
of the Gebels as time went on. Gebels actually, through

657
01:02:13,159 --> 01:02:19,320
the Propaganda Ministry, he instructed the press to paint a

658
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,920
positive image of Islam, or at least not a negative one.

659
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:31,280
This long preceded the war, and he urged journalists under

660
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:39,519
the number of the Propaganda Ministry to give credit to

661
01:02:40,599 --> 01:02:47,519
the Islamic world as a cultural factor that plays a

662
01:02:47,639 --> 01:02:59,960
historically significant role in the historical process, and that alliance

663
01:03:00,119 --> 01:03:10,800
between the national socialist cause and Pan Islamism and the

664
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:20,840
liberation of the Holy Land is you know, completely commensurate

665
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:27,599
with and a component of a national socialist of health politique,

666
01:03:29,519 --> 01:03:31,960
you know. And this is important for a few reasons.

667
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:38,119
It says light not just on the deep ideological culture

668
01:03:38,159 --> 01:03:43,760
and philosophical disposition of national socialism its standard bears, but

669
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:48,199
also it's yet another rebuttal of the claim that the

670
01:03:48,199 --> 01:03:54,039
Third Reich was this provincial state that didn't understand the

671
01:03:54,079 --> 01:04:00,599
cultural and strategic situation outside of immediate battle theaters. And

672
01:04:00,599 --> 01:04:05,920
that's preposterous for a lot of reasons, many of which

673
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:14,920
are obvious. Germany was a very cosmopolitan country, not in

674
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:22,360
the modern pejorative sense, I mean in the the nineteenth

675
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:27,920
and early twentieth century European sense. Van Leers, of course,

676
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:35,199
to he was a linguist. He was fluent in something

677
01:04:35,239 --> 01:04:41,239
like thirteen different dialects. He was a cultural anthropologist, I

678
01:04:41,239 --> 01:04:43,679
mean what we consider a cultural anthropologist.

679
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:48,880
Speaker 2: He was a philologist. He was an expert on.

680
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:54,079
Speaker 3: Islam and Oriental societies, and he was very much a

681
01:04:54,159 --> 01:04:59,960
right Hegelian and he wrote an essay, probably his most

682
01:05:00,079 --> 01:05:06,679
famous essay, and it's fairly accessible online. I don't know

683
01:05:06,679 --> 01:05:10,719
if you can find a translation that's not corrupted by

684
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:13,239
Ai slap, but.

685
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:18,239
Speaker 2: It was titled.

686
01:05:20,239 --> 01:05:29,199
Speaker 3: Judaism and Islam is Opposites, and in Hegelian terms, Von

687
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:34,519
Leers viewed Islam as the dialectical antithesis and Judaism and

688
01:05:34,599 --> 01:05:36,599
a splendid repudiation of it.

689
01:05:39,199 --> 01:05:41,719
Speaker 2: And he said.

690
01:05:41,519 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 3: That that's one of the reasons why the Caliphate wasn't

691
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:57,679
subverted by a hostile Jewish element within, because these were

692
01:05:57,719 --> 01:06:05,440
calcit truant people were locked behind ghetto walls, and every

693
01:06:05,519 --> 01:06:15,559
aspect of the Islamic cultural, social, and legal code precluded

694
01:06:16,119 --> 01:06:23,280
them mobilizing in a possile capacity to wage war from

695
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:30,280
within by subject huge or any other way. And whether

696
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:40,280
anybody accepts that perspective or not, or think that it

697
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:46,599
is merit within the Hegelian paradigm or without, it's a fascinating.

698
01:06:48,519 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 2: Theory.

699
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 3: And I highly recommend any of von Lear's essays that

700
01:06:55,079 --> 01:06:58,760
you can run down. I mean, admittedly have got a

701
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:04,320
discrete interest in the subject matter, and it's relevant to

702
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:10,280
my own research, but I aside from that, I believe

703
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:16,679
it's essentially having a complete understanding and conceptual terms of

704
01:07:16,719 --> 01:07:22,320
the Third Reich and the national socialist ideological culture. And

705
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:29,800
von Leers wasn't alone in his overall perspectives. Ferdinand Klaus

706
01:07:31,239 --> 01:07:42,800
he was a well regarded racial theorist, and he was

707
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:51,000
an associate of Hans Gunther Hans of Kate Gunther, who

708
01:07:51,039 --> 01:07:56,599
was another well known racialist. Both these guys in a

709
01:07:56,639 --> 01:08:03,719
profile comparable to Houston, Stewart Chamberlain or Authrop Startard. For comparison,

710
01:08:07,199 --> 01:08:13,639
Klaus's book Ross until Ross und Seal, Race and Soul

711
01:08:15,599 --> 01:08:20,920
was for all practical purpose is a best seller if

712
01:08:22,119 --> 01:08:35,600
memory serves, and for different reasons the Dad that he

713
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:41,479
cited because again he Klaus and going through both had

714
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:49,199
very much of a materialist view of race. But they

715
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:55,479
were in substantial agreement with Julius Evil and Renee gain

716
01:08:55,600 --> 01:09:05,640
On and suggesting a basic eff between the master cast

717
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:11,119
stratum of the Nordic race and that of you know,

718
01:09:11,159 --> 01:09:18,680
the Caliphate. In other words, Islam was emergent and curated

719
01:09:20,199 --> 01:09:31,159
by the natural racial overcast within Daryl Islam, and that's

720
01:09:31,199 --> 01:09:39,159
one of the reasons it's so splendidly tailored to this

721
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:47,359
integral concept of sovereignty where every man is in his

722
01:09:47,640 --> 01:10:00,159
place and the cast system remains undisturbed because it it

723
01:10:00,319 --> 01:10:11,359
emerges from the natural hierarchy within, you know, the oriental

724
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:22,399
paradigm from where it was emergent. Klaus wrote reports for

725
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:30,399
the SS head Office on political affairs and strategic matters

726
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:46,239
relating the anthropological considerations, and he wrote, he wrote a

727
01:10:46,279 --> 01:10:54,319
paper that was submitted titled Preparation of an Operation for

728
01:10:54,399 --> 01:10:59,079
winning over the Islamic Peoples, you know, and within it

729
01:10:59,119 --> 01:11:03,439
he reflected on and the good offices between the kaiser

730
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:09,880
Reich and the Ottoman Empire. He talked about the warrior

731
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:13,640
heritage of many of the STEP people who were you know,

732
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:22,560
very very much culturally Muslim, and he said it's important

733
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:32,119
to emphasize similarities and feltenscham between national socialists doctor and

734
01:11:32,119 --> 01:11:42,880
ethics and the Quran, you know, and that's very interesting.

735
01:11:45,359 --> 01:11:56,119
And to be clear, Klaus wasn't suggesting that national socialism

736
01:11:56,279 --> 01:11:59,560
was intended as some sort of aristots religion. I know

737
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,520
that that's something a lot of anti fascists like to claim.

738
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:11,640
And Bandy, he was acknowledging that the Islamic faith structure

739
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:17,960
is very, very different than religion in the occident. It's

740
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:23,399
the integral aspects of it that are significance, because Islam

741
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:29,399
is a political doctrine and an ethical disposition as well

742
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:40,439
as the theological system, and that's what's key. And if

743
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:48,079
you're a Hegelian, which essentially every everybody associated with the

744
01:12:48,079 --> 01:12:55,359
Third Reich was to some degree or another, you view

745
01:12:57,239 --> 01:13:01,399
the development of religiosity as being very much bound up

746
01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:09,960
with the dialectical process within the relevant culture and the

747
01:13:10,079 --> 01:13:21,000
variables that the historical variables that created Islam were very

748
01:13:22,319 --> 01:13:31,119
congress with those that gave rise to national socialism, particularly

749
01:13:31,239 --> 01:13:42,439
the perennial existential ross and Kreeg against the Jew. So

750
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:46,560
it's not really a stretch, you know. And again you've

751
01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:53,920
you've got to understand the conceptual parameters of the time

752
01:13:53,960 --> 01:14:00,640
and place that these ideas are being postulated.

753
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:04,439
Speaker 2: There was a unique.

754
01:14:04,119 --> 01:14:12,520
Speaker 3: Receptivity actual potential, you know, and a lot of people

755
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:20,039
who otherwise know the subject matter are overly dismissive of

756
01:14:20,039 --> 01:14:29,319
of that. Interestingly, Klaus, after the war he abandoned the

757
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:36,439
biological racialism. He remained an orientalist academic, and he ultimately

758
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:37,520
converted to Islam.

759
01:14:40,199 --> 01:14:41,319
Speaker 2: That was the case with.

760
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:54,199
Speaker 3: Carl Wolff, the SS adjutants to the permanent SS adjutant

761
01:14:54,199 --> 01:15:00,920
to the Fear. Later he he commanded troops the field

762
01:15:01,359 --> 01:15:04,359
and he was highly decorated. He wasn't just a parade

763
01:15:04,399 --> 01:15:10,560
ground soldier. But he's a fascinating guy. In David Irving's

764
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:17,239
True Himmler, which is a great book, I understand some

765
01:15:17,319 --> 01:15:23,840
people's lament that you can tell that it was intended

766
01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:27,640
to be two volumes, and Irv you know the infirmity

767
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:35,000
of old age that strikes us all down, struck Irving

768
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:38,319
before you complete it. But what there is of it

769
01:15:38,359 --> 01:15:48,600
is just fantastic. But anyway, Carl Wolf's testimony is cited extensively. Anyway,

770
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:59,079
Carlo Wolf's daughter, Fatima Grimm, she married that check Bosniak

771
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:05,279
Moslem guy, and she converted to Islam and she became

772
01:16:05,319 --> 01:16:08,079
an islam At theologian, and then she wrote extensively on

773
01:16:09,359 --> 01:16:25,920
jihad is a concept. And I realized Klaus and Fatima

774
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:28,319
Griham and people like I'm at Hubert, who's it was

775
01:16:28,319 --> 01:16:34,359
a fascinating personage. I believe Hubert would have been indicted

776
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:39,039
after nine to eleven had he not died, but that's

777
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:44,520
a subject or a discussion for another day. I realized

778
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:49,479
these people are outliers. I'm not suggesting that it's normative

779
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:58,359
or some sort of natural progression within German cultural dialectics

780
01:16:58,399 --> 01:17:01,520
to convert to Islam. I've got too much respect for Islam.

781
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:06,359
But I could never imagine converting to Islam. With the

782
01:17:06,359 --> 01:17:10,840
exception of somebody like Renet Ginon who truly went native.

783
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:18,479
I mean that, you know, living among Moslims and living

784
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:21,600
in the Orient for essentially his whole life.

785
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:22,840
Speaker 2: That's a different phenomenon.

786
01:17:23,279 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 3: However, with those qualifiers, I there is some sort of

787
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:36,159
internal logic, especially considered the catastrophe of the day of

788
01:17:36,239 --> 01:17:41,000
defeat and the subsequent occupation. There is some sort of

789
01:17:41,039 --> 01:17:50,560
internal logic to the peculiar spiritual journey of von Leers,

790
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:58,000
of Fatima, Graham of Klaus. I believe, but I'm sure

791
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:03,960
the buddle of that is that that's speculation.

792
01:18:09,399 --> 01:18:15,359
Speaker 2: The UH and there was others too.

793
01:18:15,399 --> 01:18:23,079
Speaker 3: There was other academic writers Schmidtz, Lindmann Reichhardt who posited

794
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:28,399
not just an alliance at geo strategic convenience, but an

795
01:18:28,399 --> 01:18:33,479
ideological affinity for between Islam and the national social state

796
01:18:34,359 --> 01:18:43,760
on Hegelian grounds. Linderman went as far as to say

797
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:48,359
that and some of the propaganda that he drafted intended

798
01:18:48,399 --> 01:18:57,399
for Islamic societies. He said, the fuer prinsip is the

799
01:18:57,439 --> 01:19:03,520
occidental variant of, you know, the same the principle that

800
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:12,960
animates the caliphate, you know. And Raichar knew the Kuran

801
01:19:13,159 --> 01:19:18,920
very well, so he was able to cite passages that

802
01:19:19,039 --> 01:19:23,880
conveyed the notion that Muhammad was the fear of the believers,

803
01:19:25,039 --> 01:19:27,399
and subsequently the caliph represented that.

804
01:19:29,239 --> 01:19:34,960
Speaker 2: Role, you know. And but he made it clear that

805
01:19:35,039 --> 01:19:36,680
the fear is comparable to the Madhi.

806
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:37,079
Speaker 3: You know.

807
01:19:37,119 --> 01:19:40,560
Speaker 2: He's not suggesting the fear as a prophet. You know.

808
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:49,039
Speaker 3: It was very intelligently tailored before its purpose, you know.

809
01:19:49,079 --> 01:19:56,520
And of course Moslims were under tremendous pressure by the

810
01:19:56,560 --> 01:19:59,640
by the communists, you know, they were they were targeted

811
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:08,079
as some early as as Orthodox Christians were, you know.

812
01:20:08,119 --> 01:20:13,560
Speaker 2: In that also provided an.

813
01:20:15,159 --> 01:20:26,800
Speaker 3: Avenue of ingress for this kind of discoursive affinity. And

814
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:34,600
after as early as nineteen thirty six, the major transmitter

815
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:39,119
of German propaganda to the Mediterranean and North Africa and

816
01:20:39,119 --> 01:20:46,039
the Middle East was in Zessen. Go to the small

817
01:20:46,079 --> 01:20:51,560
town south of Berlin, and it housed at the time

818
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:55,439
one of the most powerful shortwave transmitters in the world.

819
01:20:56,119 --> 01:20:58,920
It had been built for the transmit for the ninety

820
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:05,520
thirty six Olympics and after nineteenth. As of nineteen thirty

821
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:09,880
nine the broadcast station ISS Zessen it brought it had

822
01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:17,319
an Arabic broadcast every day, you know, intended for Turk's,

823
01:21:17,359 --> 01:21:27,399
Iranians Maslims who were then within uh the British Raj.

824
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:39,479
There was a journalist, Gustav Buffinger, who headed up what

825
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:41,359
was called the orient Office.

826
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,560
Speaker 2: Of the radio station. They had.

827
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:52,000
Speaker 3: They had seventy or eighty permanent staff members a type

828
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:59,119
as translators, announcers, and as the war went on, it

829
01:21:59,239 --> 01:22:04,039
broadcasts in standard Arabic, but in berber and in some

830
01:22:04,159 --> 01:22:04,680
of these.

831
01:22:06,119 --> 01:22:07,600
Speaker 2: Could Cassius languages too.

832
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:15,520
Speaker 3: There was an Egyptian emigray named a Eunice Bari who

833
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:20,760
was a big national socialist and he was a permanent

834
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:28,840
fixture at the Zessen radio station. He's he's a shadowy guy.

835
01:22:29,359 --> 01:22:34,279
He disappeared at some point and it's pretty it's pretty

836
01:22:34,279 --> 01:22:35,479
clear if he wasn't.

837
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:38,000
Speaker 2: Murdered.

838
01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 3: He disappeared into the into the Middle East, and and

839
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:45,039
and probably took it a new identity and ended up

840
01:22:46,079 --> 01:22:48,960
similarly in the court of Nasser or or in Syria.

841
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:58,039
But you know this in the Zessen uh the Oriental

842
01:22:58,039 --> 01:23:03,920
broadcast from Zessen, they continued until just a month before

843
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:07,119
the day of defeat, you know, in April ninety forty five.

844
01:23:07,159 --> 01:23:14,000
So it was it was a major thing. We've got

845
01:23:14,039 --> 01:23:19,720
to get into the life and times in Muhammad Amino

846
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:24,319
Husseini for this to be anything approaching complete discussions. So

847
01:23:25,279 --> 01:23:28,439
forgive me for changing gears to you know, like a

848
01:23:28,479 --> 01:23:34,520
biographical discussion. You know, of course Hussein he was the

849
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:37,880
Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and he's a man who's very

850
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:41,640
much light about and which comes with no surprise. Not

851
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:49,520
only was he a Palestinian and a significant man in

852
01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:54,039
Sunni Islam, but you know, he also was allied to

853
01:23:54,079 --> 01:23:58,520
the Axis cause. So that's sort of a sort of

854
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:03,640
a perfect storm carearacteristics that you know, make on a

855
01:24:03,760 --> 01:24:13,039
target for Slanders of the most hostile sort. He was

856
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:20,439
pretty pretty much indisputably the most powerful leader of the

857
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:27,199
Palestinian national movement during British rule over you know what,

858
01:24:27,359 --> 01:24:30,239
before it had been an Ottoman fief them for those

859
01:24:30,279 --> 01:24:35,640
that don't know it, from night approximately nineteen seventeen until

860
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:39,960
ninety forty eight, that was the period of British rule over.

861
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:42,039
Speaker 2: Palestine, and.

862
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:50,079
Speaker 3: The mouftie was he reminds me very much a Sayid

863
01:24:50,199 --> 01:25:00,520
Kuta in his disposition. You know, people suggest he talked

864
01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:02,640
about both sides of his mouth and the issue of

865
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:08,399
violent partisan activity. You've got to understand the role of

866
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:11,880
the mufti, like a mofie is a learned man in

867
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:20,119
Islamic jurisprudence, and soon he's put a premium on interpretation

868
01:25:20,199 --> 01:25:21,640
and application of the law.

869
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 2: So a mouftie.

870
01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:27,960
Speaker 3: He's not a governor as we think of it, and

871
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:36,720
he's not a priest either. He's he's one part sort

872
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:41,239
of a learned wise man within the tribe and one

873
01:25:41,319 --> 01:25:48,720
part intermediary between the congregation of the faithful and the

874
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:51,079
outsider or secular authority.

875
01:25:52,239 --> 01:25:56,880
Speaker 2: You know, and a lot of both Zionists and a.

876
01:25:56,880 --> 01:25:59,600
Speaker 3: Lot of court historians, either out of ignorance or because

877
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:06,760
they're how telling the the prejudice of the former, they claim, Oh,

878
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:10,319
the the British invented the office of the Grand Mufti

879
01:26:10,479 --> 01:26:15,760
to have some sort of figurehead on the ground, you know,

880
01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:24,800
to to mitigate the difficulties of directly ruling over a

881
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:31,520
Maslim population. That's not true, that's ridiculous. They British recognized

882
01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:36,279
him as the Grand Moutie of Jerusalem and seeded authority

883
01:26:36,359 --> 01:26:40,600
over Islamic holy sites to him. But you're you're talking

884
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:43,800
about a role and a title and a function of

885
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:50,680
mufti that that spans a thousand years, okay. But to

886
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:55,359
bring it back to some of the similarities in him

887
01:26:55,399 --> 01:26:57,199
and Kutev and another.

888
01:27:00,079 --> 01:27:01,680
Speaker 2: Islamic juris types.

889
01:27:04,359 --> 01:27:08,039
Speaker 3: You know, it's there's a complex interplay between how a

890
01:27:08,039 --> 01:27:14,960
good Moslem relates to secular authority and how he manages

891
01:27:15,239 --> 01:27:21,039
a situation, and is such as that that, you know,

892
01:27:21,199 --> 01:27:25,239
the Palestinians were in vis a vis the occupation. They

893
01:27:25,319 --> 01:27:27,680
knew that some sort of race war was coming and

894
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:32,079
that the Desionists wanted to ethnically cleanse them. They knew

895
01:27:32,119 --> 01:27:35,439
that British would be leaving at some point, and they

896
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:42,479
knew that if a national state was going to be realized,

897
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:48,680
they would have to make that divorce from British rule amicable.

898
01:27:49,239 --> 01:27:50,479
Speaker 2: You know. And finally.

899
01:27:53,079 --> 01:27:55,000
Speaker 3: A moved he's not a general and he's not a

900
01:27:55,000 --> 01:28:01,600
guerrilla fighter or a soldier, I mean his if he

901
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:05,960
if he's called it, laid on his life for Jahad.

902
01:28:06,399 --> 01:28:08,680
That's what he must do, and he will do if

903
01:28:08,720 --> 01:28:14,439
he's worthy of the of the title. But you know,

904
01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:20,039
he's it's not his role to devise military solutions under

905
01:28:20,039 --> 01:28:24,119
conditions of occupation or it's his job to keep the

906
01:28:24,199 --> 01:28:30,680
people safe, you know, and to interpret the law is

907
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:34,279
laid down by the governing structure in a way that

908
01:28:34,319 --> 01:28:37,439
allows from Islamic life to be realized, you know.

909
01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:40,439
Speaker 2: And beyond that too that I'm not a Quran.

910
01:28:40,159 --> 01:28:44,560
Speaker 3: Scholar, but so you know, I just want to get

911
01:28:44,560 --> 01:28:51,800
that out there. But when our revolt is permissible under

912
01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:56,399
the Quran, there's very discreete conditions for that, you know,

913
01:28:56,760 --> 01:29:02,279
even in apostate occupier or or Kelly. If he protects

914
01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:09,159
Islam and allows Moslims to freely worship, it's not it's

915
01:29:09,399 --> 01:29:13,199
it's not just or righteous to overthrow him or to

916
01:29:13,279 --> 01:29:22,520
disobey him, you know. And so there's that obviously, you know,

917
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:27,039
he's a he's a hate target of mainstream historians in

918
01:29:27,039 --> 01:29:30,439
the Anglo sphere, but even a lot of Maslims. Some

919
01:29:30,439 --> 01:29:32,840
people try and paint him as some sort of extremist

920
01:29:33,159 --> 01:29:37,159
quasi national socialist. On the other hand, you you know,

921
01:29:37,239 --> 01:29:42,720
you a lot of passionate people behind the Palestinian cause.

922
01:29:43,039 --> 01:29:45,239
You know, they view him as some as some sort

923
01:29:45,239 --> 01:29:53,520
of machiavellian intriguer, you know, who didn't do enough to

924
01:29:53,279 --> 01:29:59,640
to protect Palestine. That's misguided in my opinion. You know,

925
01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:06,119
he was as part as in as he as was

926
01:30:06,159 --> 01:30:11,720
appropriate to the circumstances. And the fact that he the

927
01:30:11,760 --> 01:30:14,119
fact that he got a personal audience that off Hitler

928
01:30:14,199 --> 01:30:16,279
is pretty remarkable and the way that came about is

929
01:30:16,319 --> 01:30:18,760
fascinating too, and I'll get into that.

930
01:30:18,880 --> 01:30:20,119
Speaker 2: But you know, the.

931
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:32,680
Speaker 3: On the one hand, uh, Hitler was cunning in who

932
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:37,680
he would curate good offices with. But it's it wasn't

933
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:40,920
some foregone conclusion Hitler would meet whoever the Grand Moftia

934
01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:44,600
Palestine was. Why would he? I mean, basically, the force

935
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:51,920
of personality and the post persuasiveness of his polemic and

936
01:30:52,039 --> 01:30:55,560
his own sort of cunning and intriguing because he was

937
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:58,680
something of an intriguer that's not a slander, is what

938
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:02,800
brought him into a face to face meeting with the fear.

939
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:07,800
And that's pretty extraordinary. You know, whatever's flaws that have

940
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:09,399
to be acknowledged.

941
01:31:14,439 --> 01:31:14,600
Speaker 2: You know.

942
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:21,159
Speaker 3: And it's also to the circumstances on the ground in Palestine.

943
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:25,920
I mean to say nothing in the warriors, but from

944
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:31,039
the conclusion, from the fall of the Ottoman Empire until

945
01:31:33,279 --> 01:31:38,399
you know, the declaration of the design Is state and

946
01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:43,760
the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, there's an incredibly unstable and

947
01:31:43,880 --> 01:31:46,920
not just fluid but atinkly chaotic situation on the ground

948
01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:52,039
and the levant, you know, the the move. These views

949
01:31:52,119 --> 01:32:00,239
changed in accordance with the security situation and the historical situation.

950
01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:06,520
You know, there was basically at least two distinct phases,

951
01:32:09,239 --> 01:32:15,760
you know, from nineteen seventeen when the British arrived, until

952
01:32:15,800 --> 01:32:21,920
about nineteen thirty six, where he was, like say Kute,

953
01:32:22,439 --> 01:32:30,439
a kind of cautious, pragmatic traditional leader in the mofty role,

954
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:36,439
you know, cooperating with British officials well uncompromisingly opposing Zionism.

955
01:32:37,880 --> 01:32:41,560
Speaker 2: And then there was the exile phase.

956
01:32:42,119 --> 01:32:46,840
Speaker 3: The moved. He was exiled after the Arab revolt, which

957
01:32:46,960 --> 01:32:51,920
was catastrophic, not his exile, I mean the outcome of

958
01:32:51,960 --> 01:32:57,079
the Arab revolt, but rightly or wrongly, he was swept

959
01:32:57,159 --> 01:33:07,159
up in the reaction of the crown to the revolutionary

960
01:33:07,159 --> 01:33:10,039
situation on the ground, and you know, he was identified

961
01:33:10,079 --> 01:33:21,079
as a partisan actor, if not an architect of the rebellion.

962
01:33:21,720 --> 01:33:29,000
But after he was understandably bitter being exiled from his home,

963
01:33:32,800 --> 01:33:39,159
you know. And again the Hussini family has a powerful

964
01:33:39,319 --> 01:33:45,800
and distinct heritage to this day. They remained important people

965
01:33:45,840 --> 01:33:54,079
in theater. But he became he became increasingly radical, and

966
01:33:54,359 --> 01:33:59,920
he gravitated ultimately to the axis, and he did become

967
01:34:00,079 --> 01:34:00,680
a partisan.

968
01:34:01,520 --> 01:34:02,199
Speaker 2: You know, he.

969
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:13,479
Speaker 3: Ultimately he became essentially got loab Burger's right hand man

970
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:25,079
and recruiting and mobilizing Masm populations to the vafinesss now

971
01:34:29,119 --> 01:34:36,680
again too. You know, Hussein he had been he'd come

972
01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:42,199
up through the Ottoman system. You know, those Sainy family,

973
01:34:44,399 --> 01:34:52,640
they were the most prominent political Palestinian family who were

974
01:34:52,680 --> 01:34:58,880
the direct intermediary for generations between the Palestinians and the

975
01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:01,039
Ottoman overlords.

976
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:03,720
Speaker 2: You know.

977
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:07,399
Speaker 3: So I mean exiling him was it was no small thing.

978
01:35:08,119 --> 01:35:16,920
And he wasn't He wasn't some upstart careerist or some

979
01:35:17,479 --> 01:35:25,880
random emam you know, who insinuated himself into a clerical

980
01:35:25,920 --> 01:35:31,439
and partisan role. Going to a nascent and then fully

981
01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:33,439
realized crisis situation.

982
01:35:35,439 --> 01:35:36,560
Speaker 2: You know. So that's.

983
01:35:38,239 --> 01:35:44,479
Speaker 3: All these things are, all these things are important to consider.

984
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:51,039
What uh oh, I want to give me one second

985
01:35:51,199 --> 01:35:59,039
just to find my citation here. I'm sorry, I wanted

986
01:35:59,079 --> 01:36:08,000
to I wanted to get into how how the Grand moved.

987
01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:15,560
He got an audience with Hitler. Another personage who was

988
01:36:15,640 --> 01:36:20,239
essential to the development of the Third Reich's relationship with

989
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:30,680
the Grand Muftie but Islamic populations generally, was a German

990
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:41,760
officer named Veilhelm Hintersatz, also known as Harun al Rashid bay.

991
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:46,439
He was an SS standard and feure. He was born

992
01:36:46,479 --> 01:36:54,399
in Brandenburg and during World War Two he commanded the

993
01:36:54,439 --> 01:37:06,560
Eastern Moslem Division OS turkisher Waffenveband Division, which was this

994
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:16,399
sort of cosmopolitan pastiche of Kazakhs, Turkmen asiis.

995
01:37:18,279 --> 01:37:27,479
Speaker 2: You name it but el Rashid. During the First World War.

996
01:37:29,520 --> 01:37:35,600
Speaker 3: He served on the General staff of the Ottoman Empire

997
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:39,399
with Enver Pasha, who was one of the young Turks.

998
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:43,920
Speaker 2: For those in know the history, and during his time

999
01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:46,520
there two things happened.

1000
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:51,319
Speaker 3: He developed a strong admiration for Otto Lehman von Sanders,

1001
01:37:52,159 --> 01:37:58,039
who he met Sanders was this Prussian aristocrat who was

1002
01:37:58,079 --> 01:38:05,159
a non observant Jew who became this hero of the

1003
01:38:05,159 --> 01:38:09,840
Ottoman Empire after spending his life there and and and

1004
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:16,880
and training their people and waging war when the Ottoman

1005
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:21,079
Empire went to war in command the Turkish troops. L.

1006
01:38:21,199 --> 01:38:25,279
Rashid wrote a biography of Sanders later that got published

1007
01:38:25,279 --> 01:38:27,279
in Berlin in the thirties that got a lot of

1008
01:38:27,319 --> 01:38:31,960
fan fear. Anyway, during the war, during the Great War,

1009
01:38:32,520 --> 01:38:34,560
he converted to his lamb and then he as when

1010
01:38:34,560 --> 01:38:49,039
he became Haruin o rashid Bait. After his conversion, he

1011
01:38:46,680 --> 01:38:53,479
h he met up with as the Great War was ending,

1012
01:38:55,239 --> 01:39:00,000
there was a whole glut of POW's from the Russian

1013
01:39:00,119 --> 01:39:05,119
Empire at Wunsdorff Camp and he met he met a

1014
01:39:05,119 --> 01:39:10,079
bunch of Maslim POWs who had been drafted into the

1015
01:39:10,079 --> 01:39:20,119
Tsarist army, and they further schooled him in Islam, and

1016
01:39:20,239 --> 01:39:23,359
he developed an interest also in the Russian way of

1017
01:39:23,439 --> 01:39:29,720
war because looking forward it was clear that you know,

1018
01:39:29,760 --> 01:39:35,039
the Soviet Union was going to be the the prime

1019
01:39:35,199 --> 01:39:40,560
geostrategic actor, not just in Europe and not just contra Germany,

1020
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:44,119
but you know, across his entire planet.

1021
01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:48,880
Speaker 2: Because he was.

1022
01:39:50,159 --> 01:39:57,640
Speaker 3: A an Aryan Maslim and an experienced combat officer, and

1023
01:39:57,680 --> 01:40:04,640
he was multi lingual, and he had the implicit trust

1024
01:40:05,119 --> 01:40:10,560
of other Moslems. He was recruited by Italian intelligence when

1025
01:40:10,560 --> 01:40:13,760
they went to war in Ethiopia, you know, so he

1026
01:40:13,920 --> 01:40:27,199
served il duce and further augmented his credentials and guys

1027
01:40:27,239 --> 01:40:29,880
who served under him, like Italians and Germans, you know,

1028
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:36,960
who said it was uncanny that they said he quote

1029
01:40:37,439 --> 01:40:41,720
prayed without timidity in a mosque and quote he had

1030
01:40:41,760 --> 01:40:44,920
the implicit trust of the native Mohammedians who saw him

1031
01:40:44,920 --> 01:40:45,960
as a fellow believer.

1032
01:40:49,720 --> 01:40:50,640
Speaker 2: He also.

1033
01:40:51,880 --> 01:40:58,199
Speaker 3: Viewed the United Kingdom as potentially Germany's Achilles heel, and

1034
01:40:58,279 --> 01:41:03,960
he said, and this was even long before the ascendency

1035
01:41:03,960 --> 01:41:08,279
of the War Party, but he said that the British

1036
01:41:08,319 --> 01:41:10,720
Empire is gonna have to be neutralized because they're going

1037
01:41:10,760 --> 01:41:15,880
to make war on the Reich. And he said the

1038
01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:23,600
key instrumentality of the Reich prevailing in that conflict is

1039
01:41:23,920 --> 01:41:28,439
an alliance with with with with Moslims on you know,

1040
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:39,680
currently under hostile occupation by by the United Kingdom. He uh.

1041
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:43,560
During open Our when operations Barbara Rosa kicked off.

1042
01:41:45,039 --> 01:41:45,319
Speaker 2: Or she.

1043
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:50,399
Speaker 3: He was a liaison officer with the Reich Main Security

1044
01:41:50,479 --> 01:41:52,800
Office and.

1045
01:41:54,239 --> 01:41:54,800
Speaker 2: The UH.

1046
01:41:56,439 --> 01:42:02,039
Speaker 3: Eastern populations, you know, the UH, the Moslim nations within

1047
01:42:02,199 --> 01:42:07,119
Maslim nationalities within the Soviet Union, and in that role

1048
01:42:07,239 --> 01:42:10,479
with the Right Security Main Office of the s S,

1049
01:42:11,640 --> 01:42:15,520
he made contact with the Grand Moufty hodj I mean

1050
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:23,840
hodj I mean al Hussini and this became a a

1051
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:26,600
close friendship between the two men, and it developed into

1052
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:33,039
a deep alliance. And El Rashid and the Grand Mufti

1053
01:42:33,199 --> 01:42:37,840
they began drawing up a plan. They believed that there

1054
01:42:38,239 --> 01:42:40,880
there was two things happening here. This is one of

1055
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:48,399
the quagmire and the Balkans was emerging in earnest you know,

1056
01:42:48,520 --> 01:43:00,840
which which was remained UH unmanageable for a substantial portion

1057
01:43:00,920 --> 01:43:05,319
of the war. So She and the Grand Mufti they

1058
01:43:05,359 --> 01:43:13,039
believe that the ideal place to deploy a Moslim division

1059
01:43:13,640 --> 01:43:21,520
would be in the Balkans, you know. And thus hand

1060
01:43:21,640 --> 01:43:34,920
Jar came about thirteenth SS. But additionally, Bosnia was the

1061
01:43:35,039 --> 01:43:39,279
Moslem heartland within Europe. And again, like we talked about

1062
01:43:39,359 --> 01:43:42,439
in the first episode, there's a prestige that attended that,

1063
01:43:44,079 --> 01:43:52,039
and plus the ecumenical clout of the Grand Moftie of Jerusalem,

1064
01:43:52,079 --> 01:43:59,920
who's a very respected man, going to Sarajevo and addressed

1065
01:44:01,119 --> 01:44:08,680
not just Bosniaks, but all Moslims and particularly those behind

1066
01:44:08,720 --> 01:44:16,680
the wire fighting communism. This uh, this, this, this was

1067
01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:27,279
very politically savy a relative of the King of Egypt,

1068
01:44:27,399 --> 01:44:35,760
King Farouk, a Prince Mansour dow El Rashid met him

1069
01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:42,479
through the Mufti, and Mansour then began aiding in these

1070
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:49,319
recruitment efforts, and that that bolstered these propaganda efforts, and

1071
01:44:49,520 --> 01:44:56,000
uh the resulting formation. Ultimately Hanjar was the first, and

1072
01:44:56,039 --> 01:45:01,399
it was also Skanderberg, which was Albanian, Moslem and Kamma.

1073
01:45:03,520 --> 01:45:09,720
But the true Pan Islamic division sized element was uh

1074
01:45:11,159 --> 01:45:18,880
the Aus Turk Waffens Turkish Vafen SS Eastern Turkic SS cores.

1075
01:45:22,119 --> 01:45:24,800
And again it was a it was turk Man, it

1076
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:26,479
was Kazakhs, it was a series.

1077
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:27,000
Speaker 2: It was.

1078
01:45:29,239 --> 01:45:39,439
Speaker 3: You know, all Uh, the nationalities of the Soviet Union

1079
01:45:39,479 --> 01:45:48,319
who were of the Mauslim faith were represented. I'm gonna

1080
01:45:48,359 --> 01:45:51,359
till we got okay it.

1081
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:51,720
Speaker 2: Uh.

1082
01:45:54,880 --> 01:46:01,000
Speaker 3: Now, what's really interesting here is that, Yeah, the other

1083
01:46:01,079 --> 01:46:15,600
said of ty personage ins was got Lot Burger He

1084
01:46:15,680 --> 01:46:22,399
was a SS general as UH well as a higher

1085
01:46:22,520 --> 01:46:28,840
SS and police leader, and he was responsible for the

1086
01:46:28,880 --> 01:46:39,239
recruitment of non German nationalities into the and he was

1087
01:46:39,279 --> 01:46:42,600
impressed with what he saw from L. Rashid in the

1088
01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:52,960
Mufti and berger Uh decided that there had to be

1089
01:46:53,039 --> 01:47:01,039
an effort to insinuate chaplains with a an national socialist

1090
01:47:01,079 --> 01:47:11,800
ideological education into Islamic formations. So the position of military

1091
01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:15,319
imam was first introduced in ninety forty two. And this

1092
01:47:15,439 --> 01:47:20,800
again is that that Behastont got lobed Burger the command

1093
01:47:20,920 --> 01:47:38,880
headquarters of the SS Eastern Turkish Division. They set up

1094
01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:47,520
what amount to do an imam training school and it

1095
01:47:47,560 --> 01:47:53,920
oversaw religious practices and the four Mauslim legions as they

1096
01:47:53,920 --> 01:48:01,000
were designated.

1097
01:48:00,039 --> 01:48:00,600
Speaker 2: Find uh.

1098
01:48:02,479 --> 01:48:09,840
Speaker 3: A mola at division level and emms and clerics down

1099
01:48:09,880 --> 01:48:18,359
to platoon level. The overall UH legion mola was a

1100
01:48:19,399 --> 01:48:22,600
for the Isazabaijani legion for example, it was Iman Pasha IV.

1101
01:48:25,359 --> 01:48:32,920
The Turkestan legion. It was a molla you know you

1102
01:48:33,039 --> 01:48:40,119
to have, and so on down the line and legion

1103
01:48:40,119 --> 01:48:43,359
and division molas. They were the equivalent of company commander.

1104
01:48:45,479 --> 01:48:51,560
And these were fighting men. One of the most famous

1105
01:48:51,560 --> 01:48:55,319
of the emms. He was a Bosmik named Hallem Malich.

1106
01:48:56,359 --> 01:48:59,920
He held the Iron Cross and slew of other awards.

1107
01:49:02,279 --> 01:49:07,279
You know, so these these guys weren't just actors or

1108
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:16,479
stand in propaganda elements. And it also this was a

1109
01:49:16,560 --> 01:49:26,920
level of religious formalized religious hierarchy and institutionalization, which basically

1110
01:49:29,399 --> 01:49:32,159
it was there's there's just there's something brilliant about it.

1111
01:49:32,520 --> 01:49:37,840
That's not how Maslim armies were organized. It was really

1112
01:49:37,960 --> 01:49:47,239
assimilating Islamic cultural coding into a Wehrmacht model, and a

1113
01:49:47,279 --> 01:49:51,159
lot of the recruits really took to that. There were

1114
01:49:51,239 --> 01:49:53,880
some Maslim legions that were terrible, and there were some

1115
01:49:54,000 --> 01:50:05,880
that were absolutely savage, but this almost ecclesiastical structure that

1116
01:50:08,279 --> 01:50:13,520
one would have found in the company in the Thirty

1117
01:50:13,560 --> 01:50:18,119
Years War, for example, you know, transposed to an Islamic

1118
01:50:18,159 --> 01:50:22,319
cultural paradigm. Like when it worked when the mentioned material

1119
01:50:22,439 --> 01:50:29,720
constituting the company, platoon or division in question, when it

1120
01:50:29,800 --> 01:50:33,159
was game fighters, and when it was mentioned material suitable

1121
01:50:33,239 --> 01:50:38,840
for soldiery, it was a it was it was a

1122
01:50:38,880 --> 01:50:52,039
fantastic formula. And it also it that's did wonders for

1123
01:50:52,159 --> 01:51:00,560
discipline and morale. It was just a question of spiritual council.

1124
01:51:01,000 --> 01:51:04,479
There was a way of conveying to these recruits that

1125
01:51:05,359 --> 01:51:07,840
you know, this is a this is a jihad against

1126
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:12,479
Bolshevism and Jewry and being a good national socialist and

1127
01:51:12,520 --> 01:51:19,560
being a good Maslam or synonymous. And where those tendencies converge,

1128
01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:24,840
it's in the person of the Islamic national socialist political soldier,

1129
01:51:25,479 --> 01:51:28,399
exemplified by the imam you know, who was both a

1130
01:51:28,439 --> 01:51:32,520
cleric and a warrior, you know, and who you know

1131
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:40,880
and and in and not just a commander in in

1132
01:51:40,880 --> 01:51:44,520
the path of Jahad that we are on, but you know,

1133
01:51:44,640 --> 01:51:57,119
also a spiritual guide. The uh Ralph von Hagendorff, who

1134
01:51:57,159 --> 01:52:04,640
was a career uh vermacht Off and an expert in

1135
01:52:04,720 --> 01:52:11,439
military jurisprudence. In May nineteen forty three he issued a

1136
01:52:11,479 --> 01:52:22,800
formal recommendation that in Moslem formations, before of course martial

1137
01:52:25,319 --> 01:52:30,640
as sigence punishment to a defendant, there's to be a

1138
01:52:30,680 --> 01:52:37,239
consultation with the divisional mulla on the scope and severity

1139
01:52:37,279 --> 01:52:43,439
of punishment to legitimize the military justice system. And this

1140
01:52:43,640 --> 01:52:50,479
was huge too. Hagendorff recalled also that he said often

1141
01:52:50,560 --> 01:52:54,760
these emams what they'd recommend was usually substantially more severe

1142
01:52:55,960 --> 01:53:01,920
than what the secular go to German military justice and

1143
01:53:01,960 --> 01:53:10,359
the vermach and Sys otherwise demanded. You know, so in practice,

1144
01:53:13,359 --> 01:53:21,880
these emails acted as intermediaries with a European and Christian

1145
01:53:21,920 --> 01:53:30,680
military justice system that nevertheless, you know, abided Islamic principles

1146
01:53:30,720 --> 01:53:38,840
and its punitive aspect. And this this insinuated legitimacy into

1147
01:53:38,880 --> 01:53:46,640
it that otherwise would be lacking. Around the same time

1148
01:53:46,880 --> 01:53:52,359
May ninety forty three, gottlab Burger he issued a formal

1149
01:53:52,439 --> 01:54:00,880
decree from the main office. It was on the quote

1150
01:54:00,920 --> 01:54:06,399
ideological spiritual education of them of the Maslim SS divisions,

1151
01:54:07,760 --> 01:54:13,720
and it formally identified emovs as the most important transmitters

1152
01:54:13,760 --> 01:54:20,720
of political and religious education within Moslim formations.

1153
01:54:22,159 --> 01:54:23,079
Speaker 2: It made clear that.

1154
01:54:25,720 --> 01:54:28,079
Speaker 3: The emphasis was to be on the common enemies of

1155
01:54:29,279 --> 01:54:44,199
Germans and Moslims, you know, Judaism, quote Anglo Americanism, communism, freemasonry, secularism,

1156
01:54:44,239 --> 01:54:49,760
you know, and that these shared ideals including militancy and

1157
01:54:50,880 --> 01:54:57,119
the marshal ethos, the role of morality, of tradition, of

1158
01:54:57,520 --> 01:55:01,079
upright manliness, and you know, like all this is what

1159
01:55:02,319 --> 01:55:06,439
brought together national socialists of of of different faiths, you know,

1160
01:55:06,479 --> 01:55:14,479
whether they be the Protestant, Catholic or Moslem. And you know,

1161
01:55:14,560 --> 01:55:19,399
again Burger, the more I dive into I was I

1162
01:55:19,439 --> 01:55:24,039
was researching his battle record and his career in the

1163
01:55:24,199 --> 01:55:31,399
ss ohing to like a different, a related but distinguishable

1164
01:55:31,439 --> 01:55:35,039
subject matter. And I he was just an amazing guy.

1165
01:55:35,359 --> 01:55:39,119
You really only find footnotes about him as oh he

1166
01:55:39,239 --> 01:55:42,960
was this big war criminal in this brute or he's described,

1167
01:55:43,640 --> 01:55:47,119
you know, kind of similar terms to Martin Borman. It's just, oh,

1168
01:55:47,159 --> 01:55:49,479
he was just a sort of creatiness function here, not

1169
01:55:49,479 --> 01:55:50,079
not at all.

1170
01:55:50,560 --> 01:55:51,000
Speaker 2: And for.

1171
01:55:53,039 --> 01:56:00,840
Speaker 3: A military man he he had. He had a lot

1172
01:56:00,840 --> 01:56:05,840
of deep esoteric interests. And I I think that Boa

1173
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:10,239
has attracted those types frankly, you know, not not just

1174
01:56:10,359 --> 01:56:15,079
romantics and dreamers, but there was Orientalism was literally coded

1175
01:56:15,119 --> 01:56:17,840
into it, you know. I mean, that's why the Proud

1176
01:56:17,880 --> 01:56:25,079
and Book on Genghis Khan was required reading at SSH

1177
01:56:26,720 --> 01:56:31,079
Younger school. And of course Yaka and Piper wrote his

1178
01:56:31,439 --> 01:56:34,479
senior thesis on the Proud and Book and Genghis Khan.

1179
01:56:35,840 --> 01:56:42,119
But I mean, I think it's I Schopenhower was an Orientalist,

1180
01:56:42,119 --> 01:56:46,920
and I you know, Chopenhower, more than Nietzsche was the

1181
01:56:46,960 --> 01:56:52,039
patron philosopher of the of the German right I think.

1182
01:56:52,159 --> 01:56:57,279
But yeah, we're coming up on the hour man. I

1183
01:56:57,279 --> 01:57:01,760
I uh, I hope he are finding this educational and

1184
01:57:02,159 --> 01:57:05,239
interesting and we'll we'll wrap it up the next episode,

1185
01:57:05,239 --> 01:57:05,720
I promise.

1186
01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:07,159
Speaker 2: Awesome.

1187
01:57:07,319 --> 01:57:09,359
Speaker 1: Awesome, That's what I was gonna ask if we if

1188
01:57:09,399 --> 01:57:12,560
you have another episode in this and is is that

1189
01:57:12,640 --> 01:57:16,079
the up are you going to be getting into post war?

1190
01:57:16,840 --> 01:57:17,960
Speaker 2: I'd like to do war?

1191
01:57:18,319 --> 01:57:20,960
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I mean, I mean it's your show literally,

1192
01:57:21,199 --> 01:57:23,239
like I mean, if you're a minimal of that of

1193
01:57:23,279 --> 01:57:26,520
the subs. The main thing is that you're happy and

1194
01:57:26,560 --> 01:57:29,399
the subs are finding this interesting, and then I promise

1195
01:57:29,479 --> 01:57:31,039
we'll get back to the thirty years War.

1196
01:57:31,840 --> 01:57:36,880
Speaker 1: No problem at all. Remind everybody go over to real

1197
01:57:36,960 --> 01:57:41,680
Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com. It's probably

1198
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:43,920
the best way to connect to Thomas, and can go

1199
01:57:43,960 --> 01:57:49,840
to his website Thomas seven seven seven dot com, the

1200
01:57:49,960 --> 01:57:53,119
T and Thomas is a seven and basically you can

1201
01:57:53,159 --> 01:57:57,239
connect to him everywhere from there. From those places, it's

1202
01:57:57,239 --> 01:57:59,600
a firm Thank you, Thomas.

1203
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:02,239
Speaker 2: Appreciate than Youddy.

1204
01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:05,399
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekiniana Show.

1205
01:58:06,119 --> 01:58:10,079
Thomas is here and a little meeting series doing on

1206
01:58:10,319 --> 01:58:15,800
Islam and the Third Reich and Germany in general. We're

1207
01:58:15,800 --> 01:58:19,600
going to close that out today. So you know, what

1208
01:58:19,640 --> 01:58:22,119
we've heard from the subs is they're really enjoying this.

1209
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:27,319
So thank you for the recommendation on this great subject.

1210
01:58:27,479 --> 01:58:30,960
I've learned a lot and you know, take it away.

1211
01:58:31,479 --> 01:58:34,560
Speaker 3: Thank you. That makes me very happy. And I appreciate

1212
01:58:34,560 --> 01:58:39,680
the subs and their kind words and feedback. That's essential.

1213
01:58:40,920 --> 01:58:43,439
This is an important subject matter for a lot of reasons.

1214
01:58:43,600 --> 01:58:48,840
I generally agree with Aarm's and lolty. Islamic dialectics are

1215
01:58:49,000 --> 01:58:57,359
very important to the post Cold War historical process in

1216
01:58:57,439 --> 01:59:01,840
conceptual terms. I don't think that needs to be said additionally,

1217
01:59:02,920 --> 01:59:06,279
and I'm including this as sort of an addendum to

1218
01:59:06,319 --> 01:59:10,000
my manuscript. That's one of the reasons I haven't submitted

1219
01:59:10,039 --> 01:59:14,359
it for formal editing to a publisher. Yet there's this myth,

1220
01:59:14,479 --> 01:59:19,439
some of which derives from the testimony of Albert Spear,

1221
01:59:19,479 --> 01:59:23,960
which I consider it to be not remotely credible. Obviously,

1222
01:59:25,359 --> 01:59:32,720
he described the final months of the German Reich as

1223
01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:41,600
Hitler developing this sort of nihilistic apathy punctuated by fits

1224
01:59:41,640 --> 01:59:45,560
of rage and an impulse to sort of burn everything down.

1225
01:59:47,079 --> 01:59:52,039
Hitler's actions don't indicate that. And I've emphasized I'm bringing

1226
01:59:52,039 --> 01:59:53,720
this back to the subject matter. I'm not on a

1227
01:59:53,760 --> 01:59:59,960
CENL tangent, I promise I emphasize the fact of don

1228
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:06,760
and it's being designated as successor not just because Hitler

1229
02:00:07,319 --> 02:00:09,840
thought that he was a man the Allies would find

1230
02:00:09,840 --> 02:00:13,640
acceptable and they did. Other than the Yodel, he was

1231
02:00:13,680 --> 02:00:17,680
really the only number of defendant that people in the

1232
02:00:17,800 --> 02:00:21,960
United Kingdom, not just the Admiralty, but a lot of

1233
02:00:21,960 --> 02:00:30,920
the aristocracy and even people in the war cabinet came

1234
02:00:30,960 --> 02:00:37,159
to the defense of. But also there was an understanding

1235
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:44,159
that the post war world would need some sort of

1236
02:00:44,199 --> 02:00:49,920
resistance legacy if Europe was going to survive, and if

1237
02:00:49,920 --> 02:00:53,479
the national socialist cause was going to survive, albeit in

1238
02:00:53,560 --> 02:01:05,640
a historically contingent configure. A And that's a subject for

1239
02:01:05,680 --> 02:01:07,399
a whole weet, a whole series on that, And like

1240
02:01:07,439 --> 02:01:12,920
I said, I'm dedicating the final third approximately of my

1241
02:01:13,119 --> 02:01:17,479
manuscript to the subject matter. One of the only authors

1242
02:01:17,520 --> 02:01:22,000
who I think truly understands that and who really understands

1243
02:01:22,000 --> 02:01:25,319
that there was a fascist international of a sort during

1244
02:01:25,319 --> 02:01:30,000
the Cold War and beyond is Kevin Coogan. He was

1245
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:33,600
an unusual guy. He wrote a biography of Francis Yaki,

1246
02:01:33,680 --> 02:01:36,279
he called Dreamer of the Day Francis Perker Yaki in

1247
02:01:36,319 --> 02:01:40,640
the Post Were Fascist International. This was released in nineteen

1248
02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:45,399
ninety nine. It's actually a fantastic book. H Ke Thompson

1249
02:01:47,119 --> 02:01:51,479
contributed to it and allowed his testimony to be included.

1250
02:01:52,119 --> 02:01:57,680
Elsa Davitt, who was a longtime mistress of Francis Yaki.

1251
02:01:59,399 --> 02:02:05,800
She participated in and proffered a lot of her testimony

1252
02:02:06,680 --> 02:02:10,359
as well as personal effects and papers that belonged to

1253
02:02:10,439 --> 02:02:11,640
Yachi in the Things.

1254
02:02:13,800 --> 02:02:18,439
Speaker 2: You know. Coogan's definitely a left winger, but of a

1255
02:02:18,479 --> 02:02:21,000
more serious type.

1256
02:02:21,159 --> 02:02:24,640
Speaker 3: And I mean the fact that some of these personages

1257
02:02:25,079 --> 02:02:28,359
we're willing to participate in the book project speaks for itself.

1258
02:02:29,000 --> 02:02:33,520
It's not a purely punitive treatment, but the real value

1259
02:02:33,560 --> 02:02:39,279
of it, especially if you're reading it.

1260
02:02:38,000 --> 02:02:38,960
Speaker 2: As a researcher.

1261
02:02:40,880 --> 02:02:44,560
Speaker 3: There's a couple of hundred pages of footnotes and endnotes

1262
02:02:45,600 --> 02:02:50,680
that are really incredible, including a substantial amount of material

1263
02:02:51,760 --> 02:02:59,359
about Johann van Leer's about They're vague and the National

1264
02:02:59,359 --> 02:03:03,239
Socialists distance in Argentina and then in the Near East,

1265
02:03:05,319 --> 02:03:11,720
and I highly recommend that book to students of the

1266
02:03:11,760 --> 02:03:17,399
subject matter as well as people who are just curious

1267
02:03:17,399 --> 02:03:20,359
students of history want to get a better understanding of

1268
02:03:20,359 --> 02:03:23,199
the subject matter. But I raised Coogan not just because

1269
02:03:23,199 --> 02:03:27,159
I like that book, but you know, again, he's one

1270
02:03:27,159 --> 02:03:32,119
of the only authors I know of who has a

1271
02:03:32,359 --> 02:03:40,800
deep understanding of this phenomenon and the efforts, particularly of

1272
02:03:40,880 --> 02:03:47,000
the SS and the SD to curate a national socialist

1273
02:03:47,039 --> 02:03:53,760
sensibility among Maslim populations. This ramped up in earnest in

1274
02:03:53,800 --> 02:03:59,199
the final year and a half of the war, when

1275
02:03:59,239 --> 02:04:05,239
it became clear that en zeg was no longer possible.

1276
02:04:05,920 --> 02:04:07,880
And it's not because everybody was delusional.

1277
02:04:08,640 --> 02:04:11,479
Speaker 2: It's not owing to some.

1278
02:04:14,760 --> 02:04:20,239
Speaker 3: Desperation born of manpower shortages or any of those.

1279
02:04:22,159 --> 02:04:27,880
Speaker 2: Confabulations. It was because.

1280
02:04:30,319 --> 02:04:36,640
Speaker 3: At Base and particularly in the s S, the truly

1281
02:04:36,720 --> 02:04:49,079
diehard national socialists who were ideologically committed. They had a

1282
02:04:49,600 --> 02:04:58,079
profoundly Hegelian view of the war and of the historical

1283
02:04:58,119 --> 02:05:04,399
process generally, and of course Germany was not a stranger

1284
02:05:04,520 --> 02:05:09,239
to these sorts of apocalyptic conditions. We're talking about our

1285
02:05:09,279 --> 02:05:12,079
Thirty Years War series. I think in the first episode

1286
02:05:13,079 --> 02:05:16,159
we were talking about a Hitler himself and Spear. Speaking

1287
02:05:16,199 --> 02:05:23,359
of Spear as well as many personages within the traditional

1288
02:05:23,399 --> 02:05:26,560
military establishment as well as the National Socialist.

1289
02:05:26,039 --> 02:05:29,520
Speaker 2: Cadre that took over the government.

1290
02:05:30,920 --> 02:05:34,640
Speaker 3: The historical polestar of these people was the Thirty Years

1291
02:05:34,680 --> 02:05:37,399
War and the destruction of Germany, the destruction of the

1292
02:05:37,439 --> 02:05:41,960
First Reich and the scattering of the German.

1293
02:05:43,359 --> 02:05:46,479
Speaker 2: Racial organism to the proverbial four wins.

1294
02:05:47,640 --> 02:05:52,840
Speaker 3: And in their mind, it had taken centuries to reconstitute.

1295
02:05:53,479 --> 02:05:57,359
Speaker 2: The German nation and to.

1296
02:05:59,520 --> 02:06:08,319
Speaker 3: Bring years into a organizational modality whereby it could fulfill

1297
02:06:08,399 --> 02:06:14,560
its historical mission, and in their estimation, this had taken

1298
02:06:16,000 --> 02:06:23,119
close to three centuries. So there was an understanding that

1299
02:06:23,319 --> 02:06:30,079
a similar process was emergent in nineteen forty four forty five,

1300
02:06:31,239 --> 02:06:38,279
and there was the added challenge of a world dominated

1301
02:06:38,319 --> 02:06:43,800
by the communists and by the American Zionist occupation that

1302
02:06:43,960 --> 02:06:50,359
was looming. Both of these challenges were related. That's why

1303
02:06:52,119 --> 02:07:00,520
these ideological schema were quite literally allied, but they were

1304
02:07:00,560 --> 02:07:04,079
also very distinguishable in terms of what they represented and

1305
02:07:04,520 --> 02:07:08,359
what they were trying to accomplish, and in terms of

1306
02:07:08,439 --> 02:07:17,199
creating a global political regime and the tactics required to

1307
02:07:20,520 --> 02:07:29,439
counteract those efforts to break people up. Their identitarian characteristics

1308
02:07:29,439 --> 02:07:37,279
and historical memory were somewhat different depending on whether the

1309
02:07:37,359 --> 02:07:39,840
populations in question were those situated in the East or

1310
02:07:39,920 --> 02:07:45,279
in the West, and Maslim populations were under unique pressure

1311
02:07:45,279 --> 02:07:49,359
from the communists, and that this endured throughout the existence

1312
02:07:49,399 --> 02:07:56,760
of the Soviet Union. The Islamic revolt was one of

1313
02:07:57,119 --> 02:08:06,279
many proximate causes that ultimately brought brought the Soviet Union down.

1314
02:08:07,079 --> 02:08:15,520
I think that's irrebutable. So that's something that is important

1315
02:08:15,560 --> 02:08:19,640
to understand here, and that's one of the reasons why

1316
02:08:19,680 --> 02:08:23,520
this remains a relevant, irrelevant subject matter. It's not just

1317
02:08:23,640 --> 02:08:33,640
some sort of trivial curiosity related to aspects of the

1318
02:08:33,680 --> 02:08:45,600
war that are sort of not commonly emphasized, but the

1319
02:08:45,720 --> 02:08:50,000
role of the Grand movety to to change focused just

1320
02:08:50,039 --> 02:08:55,239
a little bit. The way that he's cast in the

1321
02:08:55,279 --> 02:09:01,479
historical record is somewhat incorrect. There's people with a superficial

1322
02:09:01,560 --> 02:09:05,880
understanding of national socialism and there's some Palestinian liberation is

1323
02:09:05,960 --> 02:09:12,279
to mean well, but they they're somewhat conceptually impoverished in

1324
02:09:12,319 --> 02:09:16,359
their understanding of the historical record. They cast the movet

1325
02:09:16,399 --> 02:09:24,760
he as almost like a Palestinian Naser. That's not really accurate.

1326
02:09:25,960 --> 02:09:28,560
I mean the point that I believe if he can

1327
02:09:28,600 --> 02:09:36,880
be analogized to any contemporary it'd be said Kutu. And

1328
02:09:36,920 --> 02:09:42,840
if you know anything about Islam, and particularly highest Sunni Islam,

1329
02:09:43,560 --> 02:09:48,760
the role of a moftie is not that of a

1330
02:09:48,800 --> 02:09:55,279
political soldier. It's different. There's definitely a partisan aspect that

1331
02:09:55,319 --> 02:10:02,319
goes up saying, but the move he also he didn't

1332
02:10:02,359 --> 02:10:06,079
have a sense of pan Arabism. What became sort of

1333
02:10:06,079 --> 02:10:10,680
the rallying cry of the of the resistance in the

1334
02:10:10,760 --> 02:10:15,600
Near East, which was a combination of Pan Arabism and

1335
02:10:18,960 --> 02:10:25,600
a an East block aligned but this but discernibly non

1336
02:10:25,640 --> 02:10:36,439
communist uh sort of militant socialism. That was not what

1337
02:10:36,560 --> 02:10:39,479
he viewed as the way forward for Palestinians. And he

1338
02:10:39,560 --> 02:10:44,199
was absolutely a pan Islamist, but he didn't he didn't

1339
02:10:44,279 --> 02:10:48,199
view pan Arabism as a meaningful concept. Then, frankly, it's not.

1340
02:10:52,720 --> 02:10:59,960
On the other side, Zionists then and now have tried

1341
02:11:00,199 --> 02:11:03,960
cast the move he as sort of a Palestinian Kodriano

1342
02:11:04,960 --> 02:11:14,359
or some sort of or some sort of ethnosectarian national

1343
02:11:14,399 --> 02:11:19,399
wist who's a mirror of themselves. Of themselves who wanted

1344
02:11:19,399 --> 02:11:31,239
to annihilate Jewelry owing to some sort of highly binary,

1345
02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:36,840
zero sum concept of racial and sectarian struggle in the region.

1346
02:11:37,840 --> 02:11:45,680
That's naked propaganda. And interestingly, when people in the Churchill government,

1347
02:11:46,000 --> 02:11:51,319
who are particularly sympathetic to designs perspective, tried to convince

1348
02:11:51,359 --> 02:11:54,640
the Home Office of these things and as far as

1349
02:11:54,640 --> 02:11:58,119
trying to push the British authorities is trying to capture

1350
02:11:58,159 --> 02:12:08,039
the Al Husseini. This was quickly quashed and British intelligence

1351
02:12:08,039 --> 02:12:12,159
simply refused to pursue it. And there was an internal

1352
02:12:12,239 --> 02:12:16,239
memo that indicated that.

1353
02:12:18,319 --> 02:12:18,800
Speaker 2: This was.

1354
02:12:20,479 --> 02:12:26,399
Speaker 3: A propaganda effort devised by Zionus on the ground, who

1355
02:12:27,720 --> 02:12:34,960
were concerned about a leadership cadre reconstituting among their enemies,

1356
02:12:35,600 --> 02:12:45,159
which they pretty successfully decapitated by this juncture. And to

1357
02:12:45,199 --> 02:12:48,520
be clear that mof he was in exile from nineteen

1358
02:12:48,560 --> 02:12:54,760
thirty six on going to the Arab revolt, the Arab

1359
02:12:54,800 --> 02:12:59,720
revolt is complicated. I don't want to deep dive into

1360
02:12:59,760 --> 02:13:05,399
that now. Briefly, it was a general strike. It was

1361
02:13:05,439 --> 02:13:11,600
it uprising as more and more European Jews streamed into Palestine.

1362
02:13:12,159 --> 02:13:14,880
It became clear that the Palestinians were going to be

1363
02:13:14,880 --> 02:13:20,920
ethnically cleansed, okay, And we talked about how the the

1364
02:13:21,000 --> 02:13:28,359
British were inconsistent and how they responded to ethnosectarian violence

1365
02:13:28,399 --> 02:13:39,079
and you know, categorical attacks upon Palestinians to realize annihilation

1366
02:13:40,439 --> 02:13:46,720
oriented goals by the Desions. So this represented an existential fear.

1367
02:13:47,119 --> 02:13:53,359
It wasn't just a question of resistance to Palestine being

1368
02:13:53,359 --> 02:14:03,640
dominated by a hostile Jewish majority. On the ground, there

1369
02:14:03,720 --> 02:14:10,840
was an element among the Palestinians under Arms two that

1370
02:14:11,039 --> 02:14:14,840
had always favored an armed struggle, and their reasoning was

1371
02:14:16,439 --> 02:14:22,960
we've got to pull the trigger now before the situation

1372
02:14:23,119 --> 02:14:28,239
deteriorate the point that it's no longer possible. There was

1373
02:14:28,279 --> 02:14:40,199
a a pious Islamist organization that was also highly militant,

1374
02:14:40,840 --> 02:14:44,319
led by eas Alden al Cassam.

1375
02:14:46,079 --> 02:14:47,159
Speaker 2: He was a shakh.

1376
02:14:48,760 --> 02:14:52,520
Speaker 3: And something of a lesser aristocrat, but it was also

1377
02:14:52,560 --> 02:14:56,439
a dedicated revolutionary and as early as the mid nineties

1378
02:14:56,479 --> 02:15:02,600
twenties he was demanding that money that was coming into

1379
02:15:04,920 --> 02:15:09,279
mosques the equivalent of alms, be spent on arms and

1380
02:15:10,479 --> 02:15:17,199
military needs rather than on you know, proselytizing and and

1381
02:15:17,359 --> 02:15:24,039
traditional ecclesiastical to activities and things of that nature, you know,

1382
02:15:24,079 --> 02:15:29,199
the equivalent they're in. This caused tension between him and

1383
02:15:29,239 --> 02:15:36,840
al Husseini. He'd approached al Husseini and and tried to

1384
02:15:36,880 --> 02:15:41,000
cultivate his friendship and asked to be brought on to

1385
02:15:41,079 --> 02:15:46,039
the Supreme Moslem Council as an itinerant preacher of sorts,

1386
02:15:47,239 --> 02:15:53,199
and Husseini turned him away, but did help him find

1387
02:15:54,640 --> 02:15:59,239
a permanent place and a mosque that would be more

1388
02:15:59,279 --> 02:16:06,319
receptive to his revolutionary concepts. This is due to some

1389
02:16:06,439 --> 02:16:10,680
people too, including again some Palestinian liberationists who mean well

1390
02:16:10,800 --> 02:16:16,720
today as being perfidest and Alossini being political. I don't

1391
02:16:16,720 --> 02:16:19,760
think that's fair. And Alssini also knew that his people

1392
02:16:20,039 --> 02:16:25,520
weren't in a position to win at that moment. He

1393
02:16:25,640 --> 02:16:28,840
was continuing to try and curate a relationship with the

1394
02:16:28,880 --> 02:16:38,559
British too, out of necessity, owing to again the hopelessness

1395
02:16:38,559 --> 02:16:43,319
of the military situation at that juncture. But as it

1396
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:48,799
happened in nineteen thirty six, a general strike did kick off,

1397
02:16:49,079 --> 02:16:52,840
and once the uprising began, the move he stowed with Palestine.

1398
02:16:54,360 --> 02:16:58,559
He was very much accused though of fermenting this and

1399
02:16:58,639 --> 02:17:05,239
being a leader of it, the British commanders on the

1400
02:17:05,319 --> 02:17:10,520
ground who he curated a relationship with, I believe they

1401
02:17:10,840 --> 02:17:16,479
talked to the Foreign Office and British intelligence and that's

1402
02:17:16,479 --> 02:17:21,159
why the move he wasn't harmed, He was allowed to

1403
02:17:21,200 --> 02:17:30,200
live in exile relatively undisturbed at that juncture, because you know,

1404
02:17:30,280 --> 02:17:36,120
it was it was clear that he wasn't devising a

1405
02:17:38,200 --> 02:17:50,799
revolutionary resistance movement, He wasn't trying to force a kinetic

1406
02:17:51,600 --> 02:18:04,360
outcome to then extend conditions. But this was when Alo

1407
02:18:04,440 --> 02:18:09,600
was saying, he began approaching representatives of the Third Reich,

1408
02:18:09,959 --> 02:18:12,879
and they began approaching him, and we talked about gottlab

1409
02:18:12,879 --> 02:18:22,440
Burger and elements within the both the Algass and in

1410
02:18:25,319 --> 02:18:34,399
various party offices who viewed this as imperative, and Alo

1411
02:18:34,559 --> 02:18:37,799
saying he only met with Hitler face to face once

1412
02:18:38,040 --> 02:18:40,440
in November nineteen forty one. But the fact that he

1413
02:18:40,479 --> 02:18:43,440
met him at all is remarkable because it was not

1414
02:18:43,799 --> 02:18:46,959
easy to get access to Hitler. What he was able

1415
02:18:47,040 --> 02:18:56,000
to procure Hitler guaranteed and he convinced al Duce to

1416
02:18:56,399 --> 02:19:05,600
co sign this guarantee that after the defeat of the

1417
02:19:05,639 --> 02:19:10,440
British Empire Palestine would become an Arab state and it

1418
02:19:10,479 --> 02:19:15,239
would be ethnically cleansed of Jews. Whether the Mufti would

1419
02:19:15,239 --> 02:19:26,319
become the ruler of that state, I find that unlikely. Again,

1420
02:19:26,440 --> 02:19:35,319
there's it's complicated how traditional Islamic authority is organized. You

1421
02:19:35,360 --> 02:19:37,000
need to be clear. People get the people have this

1422
02:19:37,040 --> 02:19:39,799
misconception because first of all, the look at the place

1423
02:19:39,840 --> 02:19:42,239
like Iran, and of course there's a there's a sectarian

1424
02:19:42,239 --> 02:19:46,280
divide there because She and Sunni are very different, and

1425
02:19:46,360 --> 02:19:53,479
even within those broad sects, there's there's there's there's differences

1426
02:19:53,479 --> 02:19:59,040
within Sunni Islam and She Islam that are profound. The

1427
02:19:59,079 --> 02:20:02,799
Iranian government and called itself the revolutionary government because it's

1428
02:20:02,840 --> 02:20:07,280
not this reactionary regime. The FUCO one of the few

1429
02:20:07,440 --> 02:20:17,000
essays he wrote that's oriented towards ideological practice, that that's

1430
02:20:17,520 --> 02:20:22,159
a in a you know, direct capacity. He went to

1431
02:20:22,200 --> 02:20:29,959
Tehran as the revolution was underway, and he made the

1432
02:20:30,000 --> 02:20:34,280
point that this was something people hadn't seen before. It

1433
02:20:34,360 --> 02:20:40,120
wasn't some reactionary regime of clerics. It was very much

1434
02:20:40,200 --> 02:20:46,719
an Islamic movement, but it was a hybrid ideology that

1435
02:20:48,399 --> 02:20:53,719
was a truly third position, as tendency in the true sense.

1436
02:20:54,680 --> 02:21:00,559
Okay Al Hussini didn't represent some Sunni of that.

1437
02:21:03,239 --> 02:21:04,280
Speaker 2: And also.

1438
02:21:05,920 --> 02:21:12,600
Speaker 3: Once what became the Palestinian Liberation movement, it's proverbial dna

1439
02:21:12,799 --> 02:21:17,280
is in the Arab revolt and in the men who

1440
02:21:17,879 --> 02:21:25,680
they took inspiration from and the move he wasn't really

1441
02:21:25,760 --> 02:21:26,200
part of that.

1442
02:21:28,680 --> 02:21:28,840
Speaker 2: You know.

1443
02:21:28,879 --> 02:21:32,120
Speaker 3: He definitely was a partisan, and he took on the

1444
02:21:32,239 --> 02:21:37,479
function of a political soldier as he became insinuated into

1445
02:21:37,520 --> 02:21:46,639
the SS organization. But military command and political credibility became

1446
02:21:48,159 --> 02:21:53,879
inextricably bound up in theater, and that some of that

1447
02:21:54,000 --> 02:22:02,000
duras to this day. But you know, it's not this

1448
02:22:02,200 --> 02:22:07,760
idea that the move He simply approached Hitler because he

1449
02:22:07,840 --> 02:22:17,280
had ambitions to become Emperor of Palestine or the the

1450
02:22:17,319 --> 02:22:23,440
boss of the Arab Committee or something, and wanted to

1451
02:22:23,479 --> 02:22:31,479
parlay that into authority over a Palestinian ethno state that

1452
02:22:31,680 --> 02:22:34,399
was going to emerge. At NC guy that I don't

1453
02:22:34,440 --> 02:22:40,239
think that's credible. What was important was that he got

1454
02:22:40,239 --> 02:22:41,680
a guarantee from Hitler.

1455
02:22:42,280 --> 02:22:45,479
Speaker 2: He had the patronage of the Axis, and.

1456
02:22:47,319 --> 02:22:49,920
Speaker 3: It guaranteed that forces would be brought to bear, and

1457
02:22:50,040 --> 02:22:53,559
Hitler made clear to him. Hitler said he believed in

1458
02:22:53,559 --> 02:22:55,559
the Arab people, and he believed in the in the

1459
02:22:55,719 --> 02:22:59,239
Santy's cause, which I think was true. But he also

1460
02:22:59,280 --> 02:23:03,159
said that the German Reich had essential interests in the

1461
02:23:03,239 --> 02:23:08,879
region and they expected the Palestinians to help those things

1462
02:23:08,920 --> 02:23:14,920
be realized. So obviously it was a real politic aspect

1463
02:23:14,920 --> 02:23:21,760
of this too. But both men came to realize also

1464
02:23:23,959 --> 02:23:31,040
that this had become a planetary struggle, you know, And

1465
02:23:31,079 --> 02:23:36,760
by November nineteen forty one, America wasn't as a I

1466
02:23:36,799 --> 02:23:38,840
mean America the fact it was at war with Germany

1467
02:23:38,879 --> 02:23:48,399
from September ninety forty one onwards, the Reich was the

1468
02:23:48,479 --> 02:23:55,879
Wehrmacht was closing in on Moscow, and it became clear

1469
02:23:55,920 --> 02:24:05,040
that the struggle was global in character, and even after

1470
02:24:05,479 --> 02:24:10,719
final victory was realized, which appeared to be eminent as

1471
02:24:10,719 --> 02:24:18,000
a November nineteen forty one, no Germany needed allies in

1472
02:24:22,239 --> 02:24:28,479
newly liberated, formally colonial spaces.

1473
02:24:30,159 --> 02:24:33,479
Speaker 2: But there was also a basic.

1474
02:24:35,040 --> 02:24:44,040
Speaker 3: Affinity and that's coded into national socialism through influences like

1475
02:24:44,120 --> 02:24:48,399
Schopenhauer and things, and the German character generally. Hitler wasn't

1476
02:24:48,399 --> 02:24:51,639
some orientalists like von Weiers, but I think it's clear

1477
02:24:51,680 --> 02:24:56,680
to all but the most literal and binary minds. When

1478
02:24:56,719 --> 02:25:03,639
I'm getting it and towards that I mentioned before about

1479
02:25:04,959 --> 02:25:09,040
Oprah group and Feler and Genaha Devafansis got lab Burger,

1480
02:25:10,719 --> 02:25:16,159
who I think was a fascinating individual, and he was

1481
02:25:16,200 --> 02:25:27,120
a key personage in forcing the through policies within the

1482
02:25:27,239 --> 02:25:35,440
SS relating to the alliance with not just the Palestinians

1483
02:25:35,440 --> 02:25:41,040
and al Hussini, but with the Islamic nationalities in the East.

1484
02:25:42,000 --> 02:25:49,840
He clarified. Berger said, and I'm paraphrasing the relationship between

1485
02:25:49,920 --> 02:26:03,680
Islam and national socialism. There's a vocush imperative, but what

1486
02:26:03,799 --> 02:26:05,479
is not intended is a synthesis.

1487
02:26:07,120 --> 02:26:07,440
Speaker 2: He said.

1488
02:26:07,520 --> 02:26:09,559
Speaker 3: Quote it is not intended to find a synthesis of

1489
02:26:09,639 --> 02:26:13,159
Islam and national socialism or to impose national socialism in

1490
02:26:13,200 --> 02:26:19,079
the Maslims. Rather, national socialism is to be seen as

1491
02:26:19,079 --> 02:26:24,319
the genuine, focused German worldview, while Islam is to be

1492
02:26:24,360 --> 02:26:28,959
seen as the genuine focused Arabic worldview. He was using

1493
02:26:29,040 --> 02:26:33,319
Arabic as a stand in for I mean, obviously the

1494
02:26:33,399 --> 02:26:38,639
land of the Prophet and the Arabic language and Muhammad

1495
02:26:38,719 --> 02:26:46,799
himself means that Arab cultural forms have an outsized significance

1496
02:26:46,840 --> 02:26:52,040
in Islam. He was using Arabic in the Arabic world

1497
02:26:52,079 --> 02:26:56,159
view in a Shpangalarrian sense to include, you know, in

1498
02:26:56,200 --> 02:27:05,280
most of the Islamic element under the Reich authority, where

1499
02:27:05,319 --> 02:27:09,760
we're not Arab. And again there was this emphasis on

1500
02:27:10,520 --> 02:27:15,520
Sarajevo in specifically in Bosnia.

1501
02:27:17,040 --> 02:27:17,479
Speaker 2: As the.

1502
02:27:20,159 --> 02:27:27,600
Speaker 3: As the heartland of European Islam, and thus they were

1503
02:27:27,639 --> 02:27:32,120
to be given priority. And Berger emphasized that. And mind you,

1504
02:27:32,159 --> 02:27:37,920
Berger was h he was second only to the Reich's

1505
02:27:37,959 --> 02:27:41,680
fear ss Himmler in his rank. He had a rank

1506
02:27:41,719 --> 02:27:43,840
equivalent to Paul Hauser and scept Dietrich.

1507
02:27:46,760 --> 02:27:47,319
Speaker 2: So he.

1508
02:27:48,840 --> 02:27:57,399
Speaker 3: His word was a law within the organization. Then he

1509
02:27:57,520 --> 02:28:03,719
clarified that the Moslems, the Balkans were racially part of

1510
02:28:03,760 --> 02:28:08,440
the Germanic world well ideologically and spiritually part of the

1511
02:28:08,479 --> 02:28:14,680
Arab world. So he said, among other things, these Balkan

1512
02:28:14,760 --> 02:28:22,840
Moslem peoples, they represent, you know what the complimentary aspects

1513
02:28:22,879 --> 02:28:32,639
are of this alliance and this unity of veldenstrong against

1514
02:28:32,639 --> 02:28:40,000
communism and jewelry. And he continued by saying, through the

1515
02:28:40,000 --> 02:28:44,879
deployment of a Moslim SS division, speaking of the Bosniacs

1516
02:28:44,920 --> 02:28:48,440
here they're made hereby for the first time. The established

1517
02:28:48,440 --> 02:28:52,559
a connection between Islam and national socialism, or rather between

1518
02:28:52,600 --> 02:28:55,079
the Arab and the Germanic world, and an open, honest

1519
02:28:55,159 --> 02:28:58,920
basis as this division in terms of blood and race

1520
02:28:59,079 --> 02:29:02,000
is influenced by the North in terms of ideology and

1521
02:29:02,079 --> 02:29:08,840
contrast by the orient I think I got into in

1522
02:29:08,840 --> 02:29:13,639
the last episode. I tried to clarify by reference to

1523
02:29:13,680 --> 02:29:18,319
my outlines what I covered, So stop me if I'm

1524
02:29:18,360 --> 02:29:27,200
being redundant. But in nineteen forty four the SS head

1525
02:29:27,280 --> 02:29:32,200
office at behest of Burger, they established two Islamic centers

1526
02:29:32,200 --> 02:29:35,120
for religious education. The first one, which I think I

1527
02:29:35,159 --> 02:29:40,319
got into a bit, was open in April nineteen forty four.

1528
02:29:41,360 --> 02:29:44,719
It was in a small town called Kuben in Brandenburg.

1529
02:29:46,719 --> 02:29:50,520
This was this was the e Mom Institute, and we

1530
02:29:50,639 --> 02:29:57,879
talked about emoms in NAVAF and SS and the important

1531
02:29:57,920 --> 02:30:00,639
role they played at not just division level of a

1532
02:30:00,719 --> 02:30:07,719
company and even platoon level. And this El Hussini himself

1533
02:30:10,200 --> 02:30:17,559
attended a ceremony with the gott Love Burger and an

1534
02:30:17,559 --> 02:30:25,639
email nam Hussein Disozo, who was a Bosniac. More significant,

1535
02:30:25,680 --> 02:30:33,559
particularly to the subject matter that I started this discussion

1536
02:30:33,639 --> 02:30:37,360
with with what was colloquially called the ss Mullus School

1537
02:30:42,239 --> 02:30:54,559
it was, it didn't formally It wasn't formally established until

1538
02:30:54,600 --> 02:31:01,840
November forty four, and once again there was an inauguration

1539
02:31:02,040 --> 02:31:12,000
ceremony tailored to celebrate enough to size a Germanic Maslim alliance.

1540
02:31:13,680 --> 02:31:20,520
The opening speech was proffered by Walter Schellenberg, and the

1541
02:31:20,600 --> 02:31:26,680
end of the Soviet was interesting because again it it

1542
02:31:26,799 --> 02:31:31,799
seemed very much codd Swards of post war world and

1543
02:31:31,879 --> 02:31:42,879
proceeding under hostile occupation without without resulting the language that

1544
02:31:44,280 --> 02:31:50,600
suggested what in the national social ideological culture would be

1545
02:31:50,680 --> 02:31:57,520
looked upon pejoratively as defeatism. But the crux of Schellensberg's

1546
02:31:57,520 --> 02:32:03,360
speech was the historical associations, the traditional bonds between the

1547
02:32:03,440 --> 02:32:11,479
kaiser Reich and Daryl Islam, the longstanding support for Moslim

1548
02:32:11,520 --> 02:32:32,000
peoples who were besieged by Jewish tyranny. And it emphasized

1549
02:32:32,040 --> 02:32:41,559
too that the Soviet Union, by its very existence it

1550
02:32:41,680 --> 02:32:43,079
represented a slow.

1551
02:32:44,719 --> 02:32:45,399
Speaker 2: Not just on.

1552
02:32:47,000 --> 02:32:54,799
Speaker 3: Focused ways of life, but on all confessional practices and

1553
02:32:59,120 --> 02:33:09,719
cultural spread Usians first among them Islam, and Schellenberg specifically

1554
02:33:09,799 --> 02:33:15,879
said that the focused core of Russia had been destroyed

1555
02:33:15,879 --> 02:33:25,280
for all practical purposes and totally deracinated, and that the

1556
02:33:25,360 --> 02:33:29,200
non Russian people under occupation and on the periphery of

1557
02:33:29,239 --> 02:33:36,079
the Soviet Empire were similarly being targeted for destruction and

1558
02:33:38,200 --> 02:33:44,600
their fate would be the same as that of the

1559
02:33:44,639 --> 02:33:55,760
Russians if an effective resistance wasn't cultivated, and the only

1560
02:33:57,399 --> 02:33:59,600
way that that could be realized is by the dual

1561
02:33:59,600 --> 02:34:09,000
commits meant of to racial hygiene and confessional piousness. And

1562
02:34:09,040 --> 02:34:14,959
in this respect, Schellenberg said Islam was the quote custodian

1563
02:34:15,159 --> 02:34:18,399
of the Eastern people and their biological substance as well

1564
02:34:18,440 --> 02:34:25,360
as their confessional heritage in linear terms back to the

1565
02:34:25,399 --> 02:34:32,280
time of the Prophet, and he concluded by saying that

1566
02:34:33,799 --> 02:34:38,680
because the Bolsheviks lack traditions of the past, they're not

1567
02:34:38,879 --> 02:34:41,399
long for this earth, but that Moslims are able to

1568
02:34:41,440 --> 02:34:46,000
cope with the future no matter what hardships emerge, because

1569
02:34:47,719 --> 02:34:51,879
not just to the racial purity of the several populations

1570
02:34:52,680 --> 02:34:56,559
who are very tribally randed who constituted the Eastern Mauslims,

1571
02:34:57,360 --> 02:35:00,680
but that basically their faith would carry them through the

1572
02:35:00,799 --> 02:35:05,319
historical destruction of Bolshevism and the and the racially impure

1573
02:35:06,000 --> 02:35:13,200
uh interventioned who are the standard bearers of the Bolshevik ideology,

1574
02:35:13,440 --> 02:35:18,479
who are really just the vestigial remnants of the Russian

1575
02:35:18,920 --> 02:35:23,799
racial corps that died in the Soviet death camps.

1576
02:35:23,959 --> 02:35:26,479
Speaker 2: Very very heady stuff, not.

1577
02:35:29,360 --> 02:35:35,440
Speaker 3: Not not typical, just sort of grab bag propaganda, you know,

1578
02:35:35,479 --> 02:35:42,840
And this is important. And the Moullas School it was,

1579
02:35:43,200 --> 02:35:46,479
it was far larger than the Email School. It was

1580
02:35:46,559 --> 02:35:54,719
based at this villa in uh, this affluent neighborhood outside

1581
02:35:54,719 --> 02:36:03,959
of Dresden. There was this Victor Klemper. He was this

1582
02:36:04,079 --> 02:36:11,239
Jewish writer who curiously, you know, didn't get like shot

1583
02:36:11,520 --> 02:36:15,799
shot into space or something by the Nazi Holocaust. But

1584
02:36:15,879 --> 02:36:19,920
he was a lot of people, I think, including Shier,

1585
02:36:21,440 --> 02:36:24,760
William Shier, who wrote a very silly book that a

1586
02:36:24,760 --> 02:36:27,719
lot of quote historians hold out as some great treatment

1587
02:36:27,760 --> 02:36:31,200
of the Third Reich. Of course Shira pulled it. There

1588
02:36:31,239 --> 02:36:32,479
was a rise and fall of the Third Roag and

1589
02:36:32,479 --> 02:36:35,000
then there was the Nightmare Years. That's a that's an

1590
02:36:35,040 --> 02:36:37,520
objective and not at all a sterical title for a

1591
02:36:37,639 --> 02:36:44,799
history book. But Victor Klemfery he kept diaries and he

1592
02:36:44,920 --> 02:36:48,000
documented his observations on various things.

1593
02:36:49,440 --> 02:36:51,239
Speaker 1: They really like to keep diaries, don't.

1594
02:36:51,079 --> 02:36:54,639
Speaker 3: They, Well, to be fair, that was something people did

1595
02:36:54,719 --> 02:36:56,879
in those days. I mean I'm talking actual people, not

1596
02:36:56,959 --> 02:37:01,440
fictitious diaries of you know, girls who wrote like Judy

1597
02:37:01,520 --> 02:37:04,920
Bloom books that were marketed for like nineteen seventies junior

1598
02:37:05,000 --> 02:37:11,000
high students. You know most I mean, Goebels was especially prolific.

1599
02:37:11,120 --> 02:37:17,200
But Yodel kept a diary, So did Kitle, so did Rosenberg,

1600
02:37:17,360 --> 02:37:23,120
Alfred Rosenberg, so did Erhard Milch. But no, I take

1601
02:37:23,159 --> 02:37:29,799
your point. But Klemper's diary I believe was real. And

1602
02:37:31,280 --> 02:37:38,319
he noted he was observing, obviously from without the you know,

1603
02:37:38,360 --> 02:37:43,319
what was going on in this old but rather stately property,

1604
02:37:43,879 --> 02:37:48,680
which I believe is a repurpose to hotel in blasphets

1605
02:37:49,079 --> 02:37:52,760
this this neighborhood of Dresden, and he said there was

1606
02:37:52,799 --> 02:37:55,559
a quote mysterious Moslem study group there.

1607
02:37:59,559 --> 02:38:03,239
Speaker 2: This if you want to relate.

1608
02:38:03,360 --> 02:38:07,319
Speaker 3: But I uh, when I read that, I just I

1609
02:38:07,360 --> 02:38:10,280
had this funny image of this like little neverish dude

1610
02:38:10,440 --> 02:38:16,280
like kicking out at uh at things like ss going

1611
02:38:16,440 --> 02:38:20,799
out of this coughing building and say, what's what is

1612
02:38:20,840 --> 02:38:21,200
going on?

1613
02:38:24,920 --> 02:38:27,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, Maybe uh, I.

1614
02:38:26,959 --> 02:38:30,319
Speaker 3: Am from the silly, silly kind of ship like that,

1615
02:38:30,399 --> 02:38:32,799
But uh moving on.

1616
02:38:35,840 --> 02:38:35,879
Speaker 2: It.

1617
02:38:36,159 --> 02:38:43,040
Speaker 3: Uh, it can't uh something that something you can't you

1618
02:38:43,040 --> 02:38:44,280
can't you can't chug this up to.

1619
02:38:46,680 --> 02:38:55,079
Speaker 2: Some sort of you know, effort to corral.

1620
02:38:56,200 --> 02:38:59,120
Speaker 3: Halfless pow us in the frontline service or something the

1621
02:39:00,159 --> 02:39:04,520
flesh out the ranks of.

1622
02:39:02,840 --> 02:39:09,200
Speaker 2: Of devastated divisions and battalions. You know.

1623
02:39:09,680 --> 02:39:17,200
Speaker 3: The people suggest that sort of thing, don't know the

1624
02:39:17,200 --> 02:39:27,000
the subject matter. And there was a a a guy

1625
02:39:27,079 --> 02:39:33,719
named Rayner Shakcha Olshacha. He was assigned to set things

1626
02:39:33,799 --> 02:39:45,920
up in the Moulla school and uh make it culturally

1627
02:39:45,920 --> 02:39:50,920
compliant with the students who'd be attending it. So old

1628
02:39:50,959 --> 02:39:59,000
Shaka ol Shatcha. He decked out the interior building in

1629
02:39:59,120 --> 02:40:04,319
ways that reflect did Islamic architectural styles. The main entrance

1630
02:40:04,360 --> 02:40:10,719
hall was decorated with a mosaic patterns, specifically after mosques

1631
02:40:10,760 --> 02:40:15,799
in Central Asia. There was a lot of you know,

1632
02:40:16,280 --> 02:40:24,840
Islamic artifacts on loan from museums in the Greater German Reich.

1633
02:40:26,799 --> 02:40:31,920
There was Kuranic verses and calligraphy painted into the walls.

1634
02:40:33,559 --> 02:40:39,360
There was a prayer niche in one of the main

1635
02:40:39,719 --> 02:40:47,959
assembly areas. There was an ornate prayer hall which was

1636
02:40:48,280 --> 02:40:56,000
sort of the center of activity.

1637
02:40:53,040 --> 02:40:59,799
Speaker 2: On the ground floor, you know, And so I mean

1638
02:40:59,840 --> 02:41:01,040
the ass went out of their.

1639
02:41:00,920 --> 02:41:10,959
Speaker 3: Way to create an authentically Islamic environment, and they went

1640
02:41:11,000 --> 02:41:11,879
as far as.

1641
02:41:15,280 --> 02:41:16,159
Speaker 2: To hire.

1642
02:41:18,040 --> 02:41:24,680
Speaker 3: Kurt Erdman. He was the foremost expert on Islamic culture

1643
02:41:24,719 --> 02:41:30,319
and art history in the Oriental department of the Pergamon

1644
02:41:30,479 --> 02:41:39,479
Museum in Berlin, and he consulted with architects from Berlin

1645
02:41:39,520 --> 02:41:44,360
and Dresden to mock this up. And it took half

1646
02:41:44,360 --> 02:41:51,799
a year. You know, there was a great library. It

1647
02:41:51,879 --> 02:41:56,079
had Islamic, authentic Islamic texts from France, from Bosnia, from

1648
02:41:56,120 --> 02:42:04,520
the Netherlands, including rare, ancient and texts that have been purchased.

1649
02:42:04,520 --> 02:42:14,319
In Sarajevo. Around this time, anybody, no matter there, any uh,

1650
02:42:14,440 --> 02:42:18,639
any Folks, Deutsche or any any any non Jewish Auslander

1651
02:42:19,680 --> 02:42:23,600
could obtain a free Koran from the Propaganda Ministry just

1652
02:42:23,639 --> 02:42:30,440
by asking for one. There weren't a lot of Qurans

1653
02:42:30,479 --> 02:42:36,520
that have been properly translated into German, so an effort

1654
02:42:36,559 --> 02:42:43,600
was made to remedy that by the Propaganda Ministry. And

1655
02:42:45,959 --> 02:42:51,440
one of the reasons for these efforts was the s

1656
02:42:51,600 --> 02:43:01,959
S wanted to attract top religious scholars and imams to

1657
02:43:02,040 --> 02:43:04,319
teach at the school, but also to attend it for

1658
02:43:07,879 --> 02:43:17,200
political education and military education within the SS model. And

1659
02:43:19,159 --> 02:43:22,840
reading between the lines, you know, again this is the

1660
02:43:22,879 --> 02:43:26,239
last year that wore under desperate conditions. They were looking

1661
02:43:26,280 --> 02:43:30,520
to build cadres. They were looking to build dedicated national

1662
02:43:30,559 --> 02:43:39,319
socialist cadres within these populations for a post war world,

1663
02:43:40,040 --> 02:43:48,159
you know. I that should be clear to anybody who

1664
02:43:48,959 --> 02:44:01,159
understands what they're looking at. Metaphorically speaking, I think Alan

1665
02:44:01,239 --> 02:44:09,799
John Idris or Idris, he was coveted as director of

1666
02:44:09,920 --> 02:44:15,920
the Mullus School, but he was still in the service

1667
02:44:15,920 --> 02:44:19,520
of the Propaganda Ministry as well as the Foreign Office,

1668
02:44:20,399 --> 02:44:23,319
and he was the top man in charge of propaganda

1669
02:44:23,319 --> 02:44:28,799
in the Islamic world, and neither the Foreign Office nor

1670
02:44:28,879 --> 02:44:34,399
the nor Goebels would let him go, you know. And

1671
02:44:34,440 --> 02:44:39,959
again this they were emphasizing the propaganda aspect in the

1672
02:44:40,079 --> 02:44:44,639
theater in Palestine as well as in among the nationalities

1673
02:44:44,680 --> 02:44:49,799
and in the Soviet Union, and uh of course in

1674
02:44:49,799 --> 02:44:54,600
in Bosnia. But the Bosniacs again, they they they were

1675
02:44:54,639 --> 02:45:01,719
they were racial Europeans, and most of them were multi

1676
02:45:01,840 --> 02:45:04,920
lingualed just because o where they lived, you know, and

1677
02:45:05,559 --> 02:45:12,920
they had a privileged position within within the the Reich.

1678
02:45:14,840 --> 02:45:17,520
So it was it would have been a redundant to

1679
02:45:20,760 --> 02:45:24,479
make them the focus group of these efforts, if you

1680
02:45:24,559 --> 02:45:32,360
follow me. But nevertheless, ultimately the propaganda ministry they let

1681
02:45:32,440 --> 02:45:38,799
Idris preside over the Moullas School three days a week.

1682
02:45:43,840 --> 02:45:52,399
He was young, comparatively charismatic. He was very modern and

1683
02:45:52,479 --> 02:45:57,959
had Western habits. He had a great admiration for the

1684
02:45:58,000 --> 02:46:01,360
European culture, and he assimilated very well into Germany culturally.

1685
02:46:01,959 --> 02:46:05,559
But he was also a very, very UH dedicated Moslim.

1686
02:46:06,680 --> 02:46:12,079
He was kind of viewed as the model Maslim national socialist.

1687
02:46:17,159 --> 02:46:23,120
He had a son who UH worked as an interpreter

1688
02:46:24,000 --> 02:46:28,079
and then ultimately joined UH the Eastern Maslim SS.

1689
02:46:27,879 --> 02:46:34,079
Speaker 2: Corps in the final year of the war. And that

1690
02:46:34,239 --> 02:46:35,079
obviously was.

1691
02:46:36,959 --> 02:46:39,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I anybody who joined that late in the

1692
02:46:39,799 --> 02:46:42,120
game knew there's a good chance they weren't coming home.

1693
02:46:42,159 --> 02:46:48,840
I mean, he was a dedicated he was coming to

1694
02:46:48,879 --> 02:46:51,760
the jihad. But he this also was something of a

1695
02:46:51,760 --> 02:46:53,280
propagandic coup.

1696
02:46:53,520 --> 02:47:01,040
Speaker 2: You know, look, this wealthy Malas offering up his son

1697
02:47:01,079 --> 02:47:05,040
to fight for the Reich. It's no small thing obviously,

1698
02:47:07,639 --> 02:47:08,120
you know, and.

1699
02:47:08,120 --> 02:47:19,520
Speaker 3: The and the SS UH it says that I'm only

1700
02:47:19,559 --> 02:47:27,440
employing Moslims as teachers in the mother school in contrast

1701
02:47:27,520 --> 02:47:38,360
to the Wehrmacht and in contrast to other party institutions

1702
02:47:38,399 --> 02:47:42,520
that dealt with the education and putical indoctrination of Moslim peoples.

1703
02:47:44,239 --> 02:47:49,760
The SS took this very seriously, you know, and that

1704
02:47:54,479 --> 02:48:04,879
that tracks with its overall orientation, you know, the It's

1705
02:48:04,920 --> 02:48:06,239
a fascinating.

1706
02:48:07,799 --> 02:48:08,159
Speaker 2: Sort of.

1707
02:48:10,280 --> 02:48:17,000
Speaker 3: Aspect to the Reich's relationship to Romania. You know, Hitler

1708
02:48:17,159 --> 02:48:24,280
uh Antonescu and Hitler are very close, and Antonescua was

1709
02:48:24,399 --> 02:48:29,200
probably the fears best ally, and I mean Romania sacrificed

1710
02:48:29,239 --> 02:48:36,079
tremendously for the Axis cause and also the fact that

1711
02:48:36,200 --> 02:48:40,040
they when Stalin began World War two with his War

1712
02:48:40,120 --> 02:48:45,760
of Conquest, obviously Romania was very much in the crosshairs

1713
02:48:45,840 --> 02:48:54,040
of of Moscow. So there was an existential imperative as

1714
02:48:54,079 --> 02:48:57,879
to why they'd welcome the Vermacht deploying its scale there.

1715
02:48:58,360 --> 02:49:02,399
But also obviously Escu not only to commit close to

1716
02:49:02,440 --> 02:49:07,319
a quarter million men the Barbarossa, but he availed Romania

1717
02:49:07,399 --> 02:49:16,280
as a staging ground for a huge component of like

1718
02:49:16,399 --> 02:49:22,360
forces and being in operational terms. But later, you know,

1719
02:49:22,479 --> 02:49:31,399
Anton Escu. He presided over the brief national legionary state,

1720
02:49:32,799 --> 02:49:37,559
and then he banned the Iron Guard owing to what

1721
02:49:37,719 --> 02:49:41,399
he viewed as their revolutionary subversion. This was in the

1722
02:49:41,479 --> 02:49:48,440
aftermath of this is when Sema had succeeded Kodriano, who'd

1723
02:49:48,520 --> 02:49:54,479
been murdered. But the SS famously they backed the Iron

1724
02:49:54,559 --> 02:49:59,120
Guard against Kodrianuh, who the fear of himself, you know,

1725
02:49:59,360 --> 02:50:05,600
unconditionally back Kadriyanu. That there was an SS ideology into

1726
02:50:05,680 --> 02:50:14,639
itself which was very pan European, very revolutionary, very very different,

1727
02:50:15,920 --> 02:50:22,000
not just from the Wehrmachten, traditional German society and even

1728
02:50:22,040 --> 02:50:25,319
traditional German military culture, but distinguishable from the mainstream of

1729
02:50:25,319 --> 02:50:28,120
the NSDAP as well. And I find it fascinating. But

1730
02:50:29,399 --> 02:50:33,319
to bring it back to the subject at hand, one

1731
02:50:33,440 --> 02:50:40,600
thing that the Mulla School emphasized, and this is another

1732
02:50:40,680 --> 02:50:48,879
reason why they insisted on on Moslim teachers exclusively the

1733
02:50:49,000 --> 02:50:56,040
theological program. It was very oriented towards overcoming sectarian hostilities,

1734
02:50:56,959 --> 02:51:02,719
and in the SS tried to prioritize bridging the divide

1735
02:51:02,719 --> 02:51:14,479
between scenes and sites. There's a constant emphasis against religious

1736
02:51:15,479 --> 02:51:27,680
sectarianism among Moslems, you know, and traditionally in in Wehrmacht

1737
02:51:27,840 --> 02:51:41,600
units where traditionally she and sounes we were segregated, and

1738
02:51:41,719 --> 02:51:44,760
the ss were not only refused to do that, but

1739
02:51:44,840 --> 02:51:46,840
they pursued an anti sectarian line.

1740
02:51:48,399 --> 02:52:00,799
Speaker 2: And the emphasis again was that this schism was contrived

1741
02:52:00,959 --> 02:52:09,559
by men who coveted worldly power after the the center

1742
02:52:09,559 --> 02:52:14,319
of the prophet of heaven, and that the current struggle

1743
02:52:15,959 --> 02:52:19,200
where the the dual.

1744
02:52:22,239 --> 02:52:29,559
Speaker 3: Threat in existential terms to the Islamic faith and to

1745
02:52:29,760 --> 02:52:41,440
the race of the nationalities and populations that constituted darl Islam.

1746
02:52:43,319 --> 02:52:50,399
That calls for a healing of the schism, even were

1747
02:52:50,440 --> 02:52:54,920
it not a contrivance promised on worldly.

1748
02:52:56,479 --> 02:53:00,399
Speaker 2: And thus.

1749
02:53:03,000 --> 02:53:16,840
Speaker 3: Actually vertically corrupt the ambitions, you know. And again the implication,

1750
02:53:17,000 --> 02:53:18,159
in my opinion is obvious.

1751
02:53:18,440 --> 02:53:25,799
Speaker 2: It's you know, we a political soldier looking ahead circa

1752
02:53:25,920 --> 02:53:30,719
nineteen forty four forty five needs to.

1753
02:53:34,079 --> 02:53:40,399
Speaker 3: Adopted as primary concern the racial survival of his people

1754
02:53:41,600 --> 02:53:49,799
and the continuity of his faith on this planet, you know,

1755
02:53:49,920 --> 02:53:56,799
in the face of the dual assault of Zionism and communism,

1756
02:53:59,440 --> 02:54:03,920
and will will stop. It's there. I hope this wasn't.

1757
02:54:04,319 --> 02:54:07,799
I hope people got something out of this. I mean,

1758
02:54:07,799 --> 02:54:10,200
I I presume they did. Because people have been very

1759
02:54:10,680 --> 02:54:12,399
nice in their feedback.

1760
02:54:14,879 --> 02:54:21,000
Speaker 1: No, I mean, if anything, I would like to hear

1761
02:54:21,239 --> 02:54:26,079
more people not talk about Islam like they're a boomer

1762
02:54:26,440 --> 02:54:28,120
right after nine to eleven.

1763
02:54:28,879 --> 02:54:31,559
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean they're they're they're idiots. That's one

1764
02:54:31,559 --> 02:54:35,360
of the reasons. I mean, they're we we we've got

1765
02:54:35,440 --> 02:54:41,520
Islamic comrades who are great. But beyond that, you know,

1766
02:54:41,600 --> 02:54:43,840
I don't. But the same that people lip off at

1767
02:54:43,879 --> 02:54:46,600
me about World War two or about the law. It's like, well,

1768
02:54:46,639 --> 02:54:49,120
you're the expert, you know how, Like you watch a

1769
02:54:49,120 --> 02:54:51,200
lot of you watch a lot of TV, you watch

1770
02:54:51,239 --> 02:54:54,079
a lot of cable legacy media, so you're you're an

1771
02:54:54,280 --> 02:54:55,159
Islam expert.

1772
02:54:55,360 --> 02:54:58,159
Speaker 2: I mean, I that's why.

1773
02:55:00,239 --> 02:55:02,600
Speaker 3: That's the reason I emphasize these topics because even in

1774
02:55:03,079 --> 02:55:07,879
supposedly dissit encoded spaces, these people are conceptual a literates

1775
02:55:08,639 --> 02:55:10,959
by and large, but you can't.

1776
02:55:13,280 --> 02:55:16,079
Speaker 2: The only reason I'm trying to get more.

1777
02:55:17,399 --> 02:55:23,239
Speaker 3: More guys who have a theological expertise or their background

1778
02:55:23,399 --> 02:55:29,360
is you know, in in a Bible, Christianity or Catholicism

1779
02:55:29,479 --> 02:55:33,520
or Orthodoxy or Islam, because that's I mean, at the

1780
02:55:33,600 --> 02:55:37,399
end of the day, I mean, I like what we've

1781
02:55:37,440 --> 02:55:45,760
talked about. It's I'm more a capital T radical traditionist

1782
02:55:45,799 --> 02:55:48,440
than I am anything probably. I mean you're talking about

1783
02:55:48,479 --> 02:55:51,639
like my political philosophy, you know, I mean, I identify

1784
02:55:51,639 --> 02:55:53,520
as a yacky as national socialists.

1785
02:55:53,559 --> 02:55:56,520
Speaker 2: But what the uh.

1786
02:55:58,799 --> 02:56:04,719
Speaker 3: It's reneeing on. It's Mercia Eliotti, Julius Evil. That's a

1787
02:56:04,799 --> 02:56:08,959
substantial part of my canon if you want all it

1788
02:56:09,159 --> 02:56:15,440
like that, okay. And there's this kind of dummy anti

1789
02:56:15,479 --> 02:56:25,399
intellectualism that's just hostile to theology and religion, you know,

1790
02:56:25,799 --> 02:56:32,280
I mean that that's common to any epoch really, you know,

1791
02:56:33,440 --> 02:56:35,440
even people I've verad that point with some of our

1792
02:56:35,559 --> 02:56:38,959
Orthodox friends and some of our Catholic friends who view

1793
02:56:42,360 --> 02:56:44,959
the Medieval era as a period of high culture that's

1794
02:56:45,040 --> 02:56:49,440
unduly maligned, which is absolutely true. Casting the Middle Ages

1795
02:56:49,520 --> 02:56:54,360
is a sort of hellish time of cultural poverty. I mean,

1796
02:56:54,399 --> 02:56:56,959
that's ridiculous. I mean, I don't know how any I

1797
02:56:57,000 --> 02:56:59,079
don't know how any Anglophone person can think that way anyway.

1798
02:56:59,120 --> 02:57:03,079
I mean arthury and lore and the Ulster cycle. If

1799
02:57:03,120 --> 02:57:04,799
you're somebody like me, that's second only to the King

1800
02:57:04,879 --> 02:57:08,760
James Bible, you know, you know, like I and that

1801
02:57:08,879 --> 02:57:11,719
that that comes out of the horrifying medieval era, you know.

1802
02:57:12,760 --> 02:57:17,040
But beyond that, I think some people they kind of

1803
02:57:17,079 --> 02:57:19,479
view with the orals colored glasses, they this idea, Oh well,

1804
02:57:19,559 --> 02:57:25,680
then there's this, there's this integrated concept, you know that

1805
02:57:26,319 --> 02:57:28,760
they mean in terms of trifunctional hypothesis, but they mean

1806
02:57:28,879 --> 02:57:36,360
that religious life informed everyday sensibilities. And that's somewhat true.

1807
02:57:36,479 --> 02:57:40,319
But I think it was and I think most people

1808
02:57:40,600 --> 02:57:44,399
and not about class. This this this doesn't know class

1809
02:57:45,479 --> 02:57:49,600
in terms of where these sensibilities are concentrated. But I

1810
02:57:49,680 --> 02:57:52,799
think most people even then it was a very kind

1811
02:57:52,840 --> 02:57:57,319
of superficial thing. You know, people always gonna look at

1812
02:57:57,319 --> 02:58:02,120
scance at you if you take religion seriously and you

1813
02:58:02,239 --> 02:58:08,959
want to emphasize it as the subject matter that it is,

1814
02:58:09,120 --> 02:58:13,559
is your sort of the topical focus.

1815
02:58:14,120 --> 02:58:14,319
Speaker 1: You know.

1816
02:58:15,319 --> 02:58:20,959
Speaker 2: But yeah, I people like that are I don't know,

1817
02:58:21,040 --> 02:58:21,399
I mean, I.

1818
02:58:23,719 --> 02:58:28,879
Speaker 3: I I've had to get eventuated in tuning out ignorant

1819
02:58:28,920 --> 02:58:30,479
people because they're all around me and.

1820
02:58:30,479 --> 02:58:33,399
Speaker 2: They're all really noisy. They're a.

1821
02:58:35,280 --> 02:58:37,959
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, I'm not I'm not here

1822
02:58:38,040 --> 02:58:40,200
to educate morons, and I'm not I'm not here to

1823
02:58:40,280 --> 02:58:42,440
like listen to assholes lip off on things they don't

1824
02:58:42,479 --> 02:58:45,879
know about. So I just the minority of people who

1825
02:58:45,920 --> 02:58:47,719
want to talk about serious stuff, and I think like

1826
02:58:47,799 --> 02:58:51,280
little fucking kids. I mean, you know, of the people

1827
02:58:51,319 --> 02:58:52,200
I want to interact with.

1828
02:58:53,879 --> 02:58:56,639
Speaker 1: All right, everybody, go over it to Thomas A substack

1829
02:58:57,000 --> 02:59:00,280
real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com and

1830
02:59:00,399 --> 02:59:04,000
check out his website Thomas seven seven seven dot com.

1831
02:59:04,680 --> 02:59:07,920
The t is a seven and you can hook up

1832
02:59:07,959 --> 02:59:12,319
with him uh from there. Thank you, Thomas, appreciate it.

1833
02:59:12,760 --> 02:59:13,239
Speaker 2: Thank you man.