1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:41,039 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:43,679 --> 00:00:44,719 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:45,399 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 3: One of these days I'm going to throw you off 17 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,560 and say I'm Bill Thomas, and see if you circle 18 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,200 around and say I'm Kristin Dilly. 19 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 2: And I'm just going to say and I'm Kristin Dilly 20 00:00:53,799 --> 00:00:57,119 and won't even acknowledge the fact that you've thrown me 21 00:00:57,159 --> 00:00:59,479 a croupall I try it. Sometimes. 22 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,079 Speaker 3: We are back to continue our coverage on the sentencing 23 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,400 hearing for Brian Koberger and the victim's impact statements from 24 00:01:07,439 --> 00:01:12,040 the families in the Idaho for quadruple murder case. We 25 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:17,200 left off last time with the statement from Stratton Kernadal, 26 00:01:17,359 --> 00:01:21,439 who is Sata Cernadal's uncle, who said that he felt 27 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:26,439 sorry for Brian Koberger's family because the name is now 28 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,959 tainted by their association with him. Essentially. What do you 29 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:32,959 think about that declaration, mister Thomas. 30 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 2: I think it's it's very fair, it's very high minded. 31 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,400 It's the sympathy expressed in saying that he felt sorry 32 00:01:41,439 --> 00:01:46,319 for the Coborger family. It's incredibly gracious. I found it 33 00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:52,200 very striking because I've seen people attacking the Coburger family 34 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,280 online in the past few weeks, especially since the plea 35 00:01:56,319 --> 00:02:00,000 deal arrangement was announced. It's one thing to be angry 36 00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:04,840 with Brian Coburger, who deserves all of our disdain and 37 00:02:05,079 --> 00:02:09,039 maybe even hate. I can't find myself, as much as 38 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:13,080 I might dislike Brian Coberger and what he did intensely, 39 00:02:13,719 --> 00:02:17,759 I can't blame his family for that. You could make 40 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,759 a case that on some level they're victims too. Yeah, 41 00:02:22,159 --> 00:02:27,120 I've seen some just insane drivel online a lot of discussions. 42 00:02:27,159 --> 00:02:30,000 We follow a lot of true crime groups and sometimes 43 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,000 participate in the conversation. People are saying things like his 44 00:02:34,599 --> 00:02:37,960 sister is looking for her fifteen minutes of fame and 45 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:44,080 she's a failed performer, and that the father basically helped 46 00:02:44,199 --> 00:02:49,560 Coburger escape, which is ludicrous. They made arrangements shortly after 47 00:02:49,599 --> 00:02:54,319 the murders for Coburger to drive across the country. This 48 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,599 is all the way from Washington State, where he was 49 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:01,159 working on his doctorate, to Pennsylvania, where his family lived. 50 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,360 They were heading into the holiday break, and there would 51 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,919 have been a semester break there as well. I don't 52 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,000 think the father was attempting to help Coburger escape from 53 00:03:12,199 --> 00:03:15,680 law enforcement. We heard a lot about that trip, and 54 00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:18,319 there are a lot of odd details which have always 55 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,319 made me scratch my head, like how in the world 56 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,520 did they end up getting pulled over by the cops 57 00:03:22,599 --> 00:03:26,639 twice in the same day. The whole thing felt very strange. 58 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,360 I think some of those traffic stops were intentional. I 59 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,599 don't think the family had any idea that Coberger was 60 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,560 a quadruple murderer. Were they aware of the fact that 61 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:41,240 he'd had a troubled period as a young person. Without 62 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,000 a doubt, he was a heavy sat kid that was 63 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,319 made fun of. He ultimately became a heroin addict at 64 00:03:48,319 --> 00:03:52,120 one point. He's got a very troubled background, so they 65 00:03:52,159 --> 00:03:55,199 certainly were aware of some of his troubles, but I 66 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,680 don't think they had any idea that he was a murderer. 67 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:01,840 I have and add a complete loss as to why 68 00:04:01,879 --> 00:04:05,280 people would attack the Coburger family. It's one thing to 69 00:04:05,319 --> 00:04:08,639 say Brian Colberger is a sick person and what he 70 00:04:08,719 --> 00:04:12,599 did was horrible, and even people expressing the sentiment that 71 00:04:12,639 --> 00:04:15,159 they hope he burns in hell. I get it. I 72 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,519 totally get it. I don't disagree with any of that, 73 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,120 But the idea that we're going to attack his mother 74 00:04:20,199 --> 00:04:23,120 and his father and his sister, this is craziness. 75 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: Hey, Catherine Ramslin was good enough to send me her 76 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,360 newest blog post in psychology today. For anybody who isn't familiar, 77 00:04:31,439 --> 00:04:35,399 she does have a regular blog post on their website. 78 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:40,000 Today's blog post was addressing the idea that I think 79 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,439 a lot of people have a hard time with that 80 00:04:42,519 --> 00:04:46,399 the families of serial killers and spree killers and other murders, 81 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,439 how could they not have had any idea what they 82 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,399 were doing, and she addresses the idea that a lot 83 00:04:52,439 --> 00:04:56,279 of times they really don't for a number of reasons, 84 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:01,199 for cognitive biases or a pen andy to try to 85 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,839 overlook the bad as a phase, something that they're going 86 00:05:04,879 --> 00:05:08,360 to grow out of. She used two examples that I 87 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,839 thought were particularly excellent, and we did put a link 88 00:05:10,879 --> 00:05:13,040 to this up on Mind over Murder already and we 89 00:05:13,199 --> 00:05:15,399 encourage you to take a look at it. She used 90 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:20,639 the example of Rex Huerman's wife, who has steadfastly declared 91 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,600 that she did not believe that her husband was a 92 00:05:24,959 --> 00:05:29,680 serial murderer. She also used the example of Jeffrey Dahmer's father, 93 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:35,240 Lionel Dahmer, who wrote a really searing book about his 94 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:38,680 son after everything, of course, had come out about the 95 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,839 terrible things that Jeffrey Dahmer had done. Catherine pulls examples 96 00:05:42,959 --> 00:05:47,519 from that book of the ways that Lionel Dahmer excuses 97 00:05:47,639 --> 00:05:50,959 the odd behavior of his son as, oh, it's a phase, 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,639 he was going to grow out of it, or he 99 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,959 bought into the things that Dahmer told him as reasons 100 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,360 for here's why it smells awful in my apartment. Here 101 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,560 is why I can explain this big walk in freezer 102 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,360 that I just bought. Catherine says that there are a 103 00:06:07,399 --> 00:06:10,920 lot of ways that people can be living with a 104 00:06:10,959 --> 00:06:14,480 monster and just not see it or know it. There 105 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,079 is no reason for people to attack the family with 106 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,920 you must have known. How could you have raised him? 107 00:06:21,399 --> 00:06:24,879 Why didn't you see it? It's very possible for a 108 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,800 family to live with these people and not see it 109 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,600 and not know it. I think that attacking the Coburger family, 110 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,000 like you said, is just a truly awful thing to do. 111 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,199 They are victims as well. They did not ask for 112 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,680 their son to be a spree killer. They did not 113 00:06:41,759 --> 00:06:44,000 ask for the notoriety that is going to come with this. 114 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,759 They did not ask for their name to be tainted 115 00:06:47,199 --> 00:06:49,720 because of what he has done. They are victims and 116 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,639 this as well, This sort of online fear that comes 117 00:06:53,639 --> 00:06:56,639 around this is really just emblematic to me of the 118 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,720 problem that we continue to have in the true crime community, 119 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,079 which is that people need to show a little more empathy, 120 00:07:02,399 --> 00:07:05,480 a little more compassion, and a little more grace. None 121 00:07:05,519 --> 00:07:07,680 of these people asked to be thrown in this situation. 122 00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:09,639 You don't have to make it worse. 123 00:07:10,439 --> 00:07:13,879 Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more, and a couple of quick thoughts 124 00:07:13,959 --> 00:07:17,240 came to mind. One is, none of us could ever 125 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,959 say that we completely understand what's going on inside someone 126 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,839 else's head. No matter, how will you know somebody they 127 00:07:25,839 --> 00:07:32,079 could be your husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, partner, business partner, 128 00:07:32,199 --> 00:07:35,399 you name it, it turns out they've done something terrible. 129 00:07:35,839 --> 00:07:39,800 How would you know before that act has occurred. How 130 00:07:39,839 --> 00:07:43,639 could you ever know unless they had expressed something that 131 00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:47,759 was alarming to you. So even something as close as 132 00:07:47,839 --> 00:07:53,040 a mother son father son relationship, there's no way you're 133 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,160 going to be able to tell me everything that's inside 134 00:07:56,519 --> 00:07:59,600 that person's head. All those jokes about oh he was 135 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,240 a quo man and Brian Koberger that kind of fits 136 00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:06,800 here too. The idea that people are going to be 137 00:08:06,879 --> 00:08:12,360 so angry, I understand it, and I sometimes share their viewpoint, 138 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,600 But we need to be angry with the offender, not 139 00:08:16,079 --> 00:08:19,759 with their family. You and I've talked about this before. You, 140 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,120 as a teacher, have had a few students over the 141 00:08:23,199 --> 00:08:26,959 years that got into very serious trouble. Yeah, and there's 142 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,519 some terrible stories. We won't get into them here, but 143 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,879 some people that were in your classroom have done terrible 144 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,279 things to other people. Someone might say to you, you 145 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,559 had so and so as a student, didn't you see 146 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,879 anything wrong? And most of the time, no matter how 147 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,519 good a teacher you are. Katherine Ramsland is a great 148 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,440 example of this. She's a brilliant professor and a criminologist 149 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,759 and a criminal psychologist. How is she supposed to know 150 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,639 what a former student of hers is capable of doing. 151 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,519 There can be a darkness inside any number of people, 152 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,279 and that we might not ever know it unless it 153 00:09:06,399 --> 00:09:10,000 manifests itself and they act out in some way, and 154 00:09:10,039 --> 00:09:13,919 then sometimes terrible stories come out of the actions taken 155 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,679 by these people. There's no way you're going to know 156 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,519 this stuff because even situations like the Long Island serial 157 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,919 killer case with Rex Huerman, his wife maintains that she 158 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,799 doesn't accept the fact that he's a murderer. And maybe 159 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,559 from what she saw and what she heard and what 160 00:09:31,639 --> 00:09:36,399 she experienced, there's a disconnect between her life with her 161 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,879 husband and these terrible things that he did. But he 162 00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:43,360 would do these things typically when she and the kids 163 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,159 were out of town. As a matter of fact, there 164 00:09:45,159 --> 00:09:47,519 seems to be a very strong pattern in the human 165 00:09:47,759 --> 00:09:51,440 case of him acting out in these terrible ways. When 166 00:09:51,519 --> 00:09:54,480 they were on vacation, she'd be out of town or 167 00:09:54,519 --> 00:09:57,600 sometimes even out of the country with their kids. That's 168 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,480 when he would perform these killings. How would she know 169 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,840 that he seemed to have that capability? And I think 170 00:10:05,879 --> 00:10:09,120 for a lot of offenders, they are able to keep 171 00:10:09,159 --> 00:10:11,879 that dark part of them hidden away in a very 172 00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:12,679 effective way. 173 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 3: When Catherine did her study with Dennis Rader, she said 174 00:10:17,039 --> 00:10:21,320 exactly the same thing. He cubed his personality so that 175 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,600 the good father and the serial killer, never the twain 176 00:10:25,919 --> 00:10:28,960 shall meet. Carrie Rosson has been a guest at crime 177 00:10:29,039 --> 00:10:30,919 con for a number of years now, and she would 178 00:10:30,919 --> 00:10:33,159 tell you the same thing. The dad that she knew 179 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,559 and the dad that she loved and the BTK serial killer. 180 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,840 She doesn't know how to conflate the two of them, 181 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,320 blaming the families of serial killers or assuming and again 182 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,279 this is more Monday morning quarterbacking, assuming that a mentor 183 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,080 or a friend, or a teacher or someone else should 184 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,480 have been able to see it coming. We just cannot know. 185 00:10:54,519 --> 00:10:57,480 That human behavior is just too deep and too fathomless. 186 00:10:57,879 --> 00:11:02,399 It is why, even though we love criminal profilers, criminal 187 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,919 profiling is still an inexact science. We cannot really know. 188 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:10,120 We can only know to a certain extent. I think 189 00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:11,960 what human behavior is ultimately going. 190 00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 2: To look like. And lashing out at the Coburger family, 191 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,320 for example, or trying to affix blame to bind Coburger's 192 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,799 family in Pennsylvania, I think is beyond absurd. It's cruel, 193 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,519 and we have to find a way to focus on 194 00:11:27,639 --> 00:11:32,279 the offender their behaviors. We may want to study this 195 00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:36,279 person to try to develop an understanding of how what happened, 196 00:11:36,919 --> 00:11:39,279 but I don't think you can turn around and blame 197 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,240 his family, his associates. How were they supposed to know 198 00:11:44,919 --> 00:11:47,919 that this darkness lived within this guy? 199 00:11:48,919 --> 00:11:53,399 Speaker 3: Yeah? Agreed? Agreed. We have two final people who spoke 200 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,720 as part of the victim's impact statement portion of the hearing, 201 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,200 So I want to run down those very quickly, not 202 00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:03,559 o stuff other Randy Davis spoke. He stated that he 203 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,519 had written his thoughts down, but he ultimately opted not 204 00:12:07,639 --> 00:12:10,799 to read what he wrote. Instead, he shared a story 205 00:12:10,919 --> 00:12:15,000 about Xana. In a very interesting move, He turned his 206 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,799 back on Coburger and faced toward the families as he 207 00:12:18,919 --> 00:12:22,639 spoke it because he said that Coberger had enough of Xana. 208 00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:25,080 The story was meant only for the families, which I 209 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,159 thought was an interesting way to approach it. He also 210 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,440 spoke of his love, admiration, and respect for the other families, 211 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,159 and then he turned back to Brian Coburger and addressed 212 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,120 him directly, stating, you're going to hell. You took our children. 213 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,840 And then right at the end you could tell he 214 00:12:41,879 --> 00:12:45,039 was going off script here for a second. He said, 215 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,399 I don't know how far I'm allowed to go with 216 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,600 this in the courtroom, your honor, but he looked at 217 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,240 Coberger and said, I would like to take you out 218 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,120 in the woods myself for five minutes. I applaud you, sir, 219 00:12:55,159 --> 00:12:56,000 I understand that. 220 00:12:56,519 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the judge gave the families a fair 221 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,960 amount of leeway, and I'm actually glad that he did that, 222 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,279 because this is not the time to restrict what the 223 00:13:07,399 --> 00:13:11,879 families had to say and the freedom of expression. And 224 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,519 I think it's very important and even cathartic for family 225 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:20,200 members like Randy Davis to be permitted to actually speak 226 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:20,720 their mind. 227 00:13:21,399 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 3: Sure, and the last person to speak was Karen Northington, 228 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,519 who was Xana Cernadle's mother. She had what I would 229 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,039 say is the most overtly religious victim's impact statement she 230 00:13:31,159 --> 00:13:33,320 quoted from the Bible. I think it was from Ephesians. 231 00:13:34,039 --> 00:13:37,000 The lines that spoke out to me the most were this, 232 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,399 It is Christ who lives in me who has given 233 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,799 me the strength to forgive you, you who murdered my 234 00:13:41,879 --> 00:13:45,120 daughter without being sorry. This forgiveness has released me from 235 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,480 any and all evil you've inflicted on my family. She 236 00:13:48,519 --> 00:13:51,200 echoed her husband's statements of not wanting to share memories 237 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,679 of Xana because she did not want her daughter in 238 00:13:53,759 --> 00:13:57,039 Brian Coberger's head. She finished by stating, after today I 239 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:58,080 wash my hands of you. 240 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:04,279 Speaker 2: Wow again that the dismissive attitude of the families towards 241 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:10,200 Coburger completely deserved and very understandable. They really want to 242 00:14:10,279 --> 00:14:12,960 move on and they're done with this guy. 243 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I've lived with this since twenty twenty two. 244 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,639 This has been a long road for them. Every single 245 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:23,879 bit of it has been in the media spotlight, with 246 00:14:24,039 --> 00:14:29,440 intense international pressure and focus, with a ton of media harassment, 247 00:14:29,559 --> 00:14:33,559 thrown in, social media harassment, lots of attention. This was 248 00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:35,799 one of those cases where you had a lot of 249 00:14:35,799 --> 00:14:38,440 people scrambling to make documentaries. You had a lot of 250 00:14:38,519 --> 00:14:43,399 influencers who would show up in Moscow and do tiktoks 251 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:46,440 in front of the King Rod residents and everywhere else 252 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,600 that they could. I can totally understand them wanting to 253 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,919 be like, we're done, We're done, We're taking our lives back. 254 00:14:54,279 --> 00:14:56,799 I cannot imagine the kind of nightmare that this was 255 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,799 for them. You can imagine it, I know, because the 256 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,039 All Neo park waymurders has received more than its share 257 00:15:03,159 --> 00:15:06,879 of media attention, but absolutely not to the level that 258 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,559 the Idaho four case has gotten. 259 00:15:09,039 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 2: But I can certainly put myself in their place, and 260 00:15:12,399 --> 00:15:15,639 I think developed an understanding of kind of where they're 261 00:15:15,679 --> 00:15:16,440 coming from. 262 00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:20,879 Speaker 3: Absolutely. When the victims' impact statements were finished, Prosecutor Bill 263 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,320 Thompson Rosen spoke. He showed a photo of each victim 264 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,440 as he stated each count against Brian Coberger, which I 265 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,080 particularly appreciated. He requested for each sentence to be fixed 266 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,399 life and to run consecutively, which means back to back 267 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,120 rather than concurrently, which is altogether. He didn't allow tears 268 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,080 into his voice, but he did wipe his eyes a 269 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,120 couple of times, and he finished with the now famous 270 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:46,559 photo of all four victims and the surviving two roommates 271 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,480 Bethany and Dylan, and that photo actually prompted I noticed 272 00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:52,559 even Judge Hippler had to dab at his eyes. 273 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,679 Speaker 2: I actually really liked Judge Hippler, and I thought he 274 00:15:56,799 --> 00:15:59,879 handled himself and all of the various steps along the 275 00:16:00,039 --> 00:16:04,919 away very well. Even he was impacted by seeing all 276 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,080 six of these young people in the photograph. 277 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 3: Sure, and at this point, when asked if Brian Coberger 278 00:16:11,279 --> 00:16:14,039 had a statement to give, he said the only thing 279 00:16:14,039 --> 00:16:16,919 that he said during the hearing, which is, I respectfully decline. 280 00:16:17,039 --> 00:16:19,840 First of all, there's nothing respectful about your decline, you motherfucker. 281 00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:25,480 I'm so sorry. We don't normally curse on this show. 282 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,799 We really try not to. But I hate this guy. 283 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:31,159 I hate him with every fiber of my being. And 284 00:16:31,639 --> 00:16:35,440 after watching victims Impact statements all day and then watching 285 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,399 the Idaho documentaries, I had a panic attack dream the 286 00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:42,679 following night that Brian Coberger was in my house. I 287 00:16:42,759 --> 00:16:45,080 didn't sleep for another couple of hours. So one hundred 288 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,440 percent I hate this guy and I don't feel bad 289 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:51,039 calling him that. So sorry for anybody who hates the 290 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,840 fact that I called him a motherfucker, but he is. 291 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 2: This is two podcasts in a row Kristin Dilly that 292 00:16:57,519 --> 00:16:59,200 you yeah, sworn. 293 00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 3: The first was in a quote though, so it doesn't count. 294 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 2: Oh that I guess that's true. 295 00:17:05,799 --> 00:17:07,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, the first wasn't a quote, so it doesn't count. 296 00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:10,960 But yeah, he refused to give a statement, and as 297 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,880 we covered at the top of last podcast, he cannot 298 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,119 be legally compelled to make a statement. Bill, reiterate for 299 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,240 us your thoughts about Coburger and his refusal to give 300 00:17:22,279 --> 00:17:22,880 a statement. 301 00:17:23,559 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 2: When I first learned that he might not be required 302 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:33,319 to aloque, I was profoundly disappointed. Over the last couple 303 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,559 of weeks, I've allowed myself to be a bit more 304 00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:40,240 zen about that, and Judge Hipler had a number of 305 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,079 interesting things to say about that. Since we now have 306 00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:49,039 learned and he can't be required to aloqute and it's 307 00:17:49,079 --> 00:17:54,119 his choice at the sentencing hearing. As the judge points out, 308 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,839 we don't know what he would have said or even 309 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,720 if there's any relationship to the truth. So I'm not 310 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,680 certain that him speaking even at length or answering questions 311 00:18:05,799 --> 00:18:08,480 at length, was really going to provide any kind of 312 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:14,359 satisfactory or reasonable explanation for why he killed four young 313 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,559 people that we aren't even certain he had much of 314 00:18:17,759 --> 00:18:19,079 any relationship with. 315 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed the judge basically like in his closing statement, 316 00:18:24,079 --> 00:18:26,440 which I'm going to read portions of in a second, 317 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,559 he acknowledged the lack of statement, he said by continuing 318 00:18:30,599 --> 00:18:34,960 to focus on why we continue to give him agency 319 00:18:35,039 --> 00:18:38,599 and power. Even if I could legally compel him to speak, 320 00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:43,319 which I cannot, no conceivable reason given could make any sense. 321 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,119 And he also said, as you just pointed out, there's 322 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,680 no way of knowing whether or not anything Coburger said 323 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,640 would be the truth. So he simply ended that portion 324 00:18:51,759 --> 00:18:53,920 of his statement by saying, the time has now come 325 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,079 to end Brian Coberger's fifteen minutes of fame. And you 326 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:58,119 know what, I agree. 327 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've come around on this one. I was very disappointed, 328 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,920 but now I understand it. The judge has parameters that 329 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,240 he needs to follow as well, and he can't force 330 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,799 Coberger to cough up why this happened, even if he 331 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,880 explained it to us in his own words. I'm not 332 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,279 sure it would make a bit of difference. 333 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 3: I don't think so. Either. 334 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder, We'll be right back 335 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:32,759 after this word from our sponsors, We're back here at 336 00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:34,079 mindover Murder. 337 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 3: I would say the best quote from Judge Hippler was 338 00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:40,839 this one, and as soon as I heard it, I 339 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,680 was like, I got to write this down. I got 340 00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:45,640 to say it to Bill. He said, the justice system 341 00:19:45,759 --> 00:19:50,240 labels the surviving families as victims, but going forward, I 342 00:19:50,279 --> 00:19:53,240 hope they can shed that label as it gives too 343 00:19:53,319 --> 00:19:57,400 much power to evil. Let them be known as survivors 344 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:58,519 and fighters. 345 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 2: I really that. 346 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 3: I really like that too, because it again, it takes 347 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,759 back the narrative. It takes the power away from Coburger 348 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,880 and gives it back to them. From everyone that I 349 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,279 have known so far in my career in the true 350 00:20:15,279 --> 00:20:17,920 crime space, I would say, every person that I have 351 00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:20,799 met who has survived in some way or another is 352 00:20:20,839 --> 00:20:24,079 a survivor and is a fighter. And shutting the victim 353 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,000 label and saying that you're a survivor of something, I 354 00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:30,799 am a rape survivor, not a rape victim, for example. 355 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,960 That gives you power and it takes away something from 356 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,559 the perpetrator. So I really like that he said that, 357 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,839 and I think that it's I think it's something that 358 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,119 people need to focus on more. When we talk about victims, 359 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,200 Let's call them survivors instead. 360 00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:50,279 Speaker 2: I agree, and I'm going to try to do that 361 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,079 more often going forward. And many of the people that 362 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,640 you and I have met over the last decade who 363 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,200 are survivors, they are embracing that word, and I think 364 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,000 think that's it gives you your power back. It gives 365 00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:08,480 you ownership of your survival and your perseverance. Many of 366 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,599 these people, some of them we've talked about in these 367 00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:14,880 two episodes, have been through horrific experiences, but they came 368 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,680 out on the other side and there's light ahead of 369 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,000 them and they can move forward with their lives. I'm 370 00:21:21,039 --> 00:21:24,640 not saying their lives are perfect before or after, but 371 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,000 there is an opportunity to take ownership of your own 372 00:21:29,079 --> 00:21:32,640 life again and move forward. And for these people who 373 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,440 have suffered a loss, and I think I can identify 374 00:21:35,599 --> 00:21:39,640 with these families and friends, it's really important that they 375 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,720 feel that their lives will continue to have purpose and positivity. 376 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,839 Life will go on. I have said before about this 377 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,599 experience of losing my sister. It never gets easy, but 378 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,759 it does, over time get a little bit easier to bear. 379 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,599 It's so slow and so incremental, you can't really feel 380 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:11,359 it happening at the time. Over time, the burden becomes 381 00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:15,799 somewhat lighter, and you focus on the life of your 382 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,799 loved one and not their death. 383 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:23,799 Speaker 3: The judge then imposed the following sentences upon Brian Coberger. 384 00:22:24,279 --> 00:22:27,319 On count one of burglary, a sentence of ten years 385 00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:30,400 and a fifty thousand dollars fine. On count two, the 386 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,759 murder of Matty Mogan, life without the possibility of parole, 387 00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:36,880 a fifty thousand dollars fine and a five thousand dollars 388 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,279 civil penalty each count for each of the victims received 389 00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:44,240 the same sentence, culminitting in four consecutive life sentences without 390 00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:47,039 the possibility of parole, a total of two hundred and 391 00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:50,000 fifty thousand dollars in fines and a total of twenty 392 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,200 thousand dollars in civil penalties as restitution to the families. 393 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,039 Speaker 2: Now, I'm not sure how Copberger would ever pay this. 394 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,960 You mentioned this of Sam Laws. I wouldn't be surprised 395 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,279 down the road if Coburger ends up doing interviews or 396 00:23:09,319 --> 00:23:13,359 maybe writes a book, participates in the making of documentary 397 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:18,559 if that's permitted by his keepers in the Idaho penitentiary, 398 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:23,799 where he'll be likely housed. It is very interesting to 399 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,720 remind people that he cannot economically benefit from these murders. 400 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 3: So I first texted in and then talked to Cheryl 401 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,680 McCullum earlier today to ask her about the difference between 402 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,480 the fifty thousand dollars fine and the five thousand dollars 403 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,359 civil penalty. So she offered me some insight on that, 404 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:45,480 and I'm just going to go ahead and read you 405 00:23:46,279 --> 00:23:49,200 the text exchange that I had with her. So I said, Matt, 406 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,440 can you tell me the difference between the fifty k 407 00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:54,359 fine leveled in the Idaho four case for each kind 408 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,920 of murder and the five thousand dollars civil penalties? Oh 409 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,519 to the families. What does the fifty k go toward? 410 00:23:59,839 --> 00:24:02,119 Is at court costs? And if you can't pay, where 411 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,000 does the money come from? So here's what she said. 412 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,440 The fifty thousand dollars normally, if it's a felony, goes 413 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,759 toward the crime victim's compensation fund. As a whole, five 414 00:24:10,799 --> 00:24:13,200 thousand dollars goes directly to the family for out of 415 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,960 pocket expenses such as funerals. Any fees or fines can 416 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,279 go toward a general fund that can go to law 417 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,839 enforcement or court cases that they but it is up 418 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:25,240 to them to designate where the money goes. She says, 419 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,519 I don't know the Idaho system, but that two hundred 420 00:24:27,519 --> 00:24:29,279 and fifty thousand dollars, if they were to place it 421 00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:32,079 in a general fund, can go anywhere if they earmarked it. 422 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,799 Because of the severity of this case, it is probably 423 00:24:34,799 --> 00:24:36,519 going to go straight to victims compensation. 424 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 2: I still am not sure. And from what I've read 425 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,799 about the Coburger family, they went through significant financial struggles 426 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,319 some years back. As a matter of fact, I think 427 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,440 they may have faced bankruptcy at one point. I'm not 428 00:24:50,519 --> 00:24:53,480 sure they're rolling in dough and are going to be 429 00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:55,359 able to pay these fines. 430 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they wouldn't be responsible for it, according to 431 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,680 I also talked to Nikki Jackson and she said they 432 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:06,000 would not be responsible for it if Coburger can't pay. Unfortunately, 433 00:25:06,079 --> 00:25:08,880 the finds just they sit there. If he can't pay, 434 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:09,720 they don't get paid. 435 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: They hang over his head, but he isn't required to 436 00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:15,119 pay them if he doesn't have the money. 437 00:25:15,559 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, we were again. Another thing Mac and Catherine Ramsland 438 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,200 and I were all talking about is the son of 439 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,079 Sam laws and who can and cannot profit from these 440 00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:28,960 book deals or whatever that he may end up doing. 441 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,599 We don't know that he will, but he cannot legally 442 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,400 profit from it, and if he did, then that money 443 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,880 would go to the families of the victims. 444 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,799 Speaker 2: The Son of Sam laws were introduced after David Berkerwitz, 445 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,680 the Son of Sam killer, he profited from I think 446 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,160 it was a book deal, and there was a tremendous 447 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,960 amount of public outrage when people found out that he 448 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,400 was making money by telling his story, which is really 449 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,400 the story of his victims. Laws were introduced and passed 450 00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:03,960 that event killers like this or offenders like this from 451 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,480 benefiting economically from their own crime. 452 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 3: After the sentencing hearing, more than three hundred files related 453 00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:15,160 to the case were unsealed for public examination. Remember there 454 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,599 had been a gag order on this most of the 455 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,359 people involved for a long time, but there was after 456 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,799 the hearing a release of files. We're going to delve 457 00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:25,599 into those at a little bit of a later date. 458 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,799 We don't have time for it now, but I would 459 00:26:27,799 --> 00:26:32,000 say that the three big takeaways from those files are these. 460 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,000 Number one takeaway there is still no identifiable link between 461 00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:40,000 Brian Koberger and the victims. They did not have links 462 00:26:40,039 --> 00:26:42,279 via social media, they did not have a link via 463 00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:45,920 the Mad Greek restaurant. Nothing has arisen that shows how 464 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,200 Brian Koberger knew them and targeted them, which is bizarre. 465 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,799 Speaker 2: But it's still a question that bothers me because, yes, 466 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,920 it's very hard to figure out how these four young 467 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,880 people moved onto Coburger's radar. Remember, he's going to school 468 00:27:01,319 --> 00:27:05,400 for his doctoral program at the University of Washington. He's 469 00:27:05,519 --> 00:27:09,400 fifteen or twenty minutes away, actually in another state. We 470 00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:14,640 know that he passed by their home numerous times in 471 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,680 the weeks leading up to the murders based on cell 472 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,920 phone records. It's still not clear how these young people 473 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,640 moved on to his radar. And remember reading quite a 474 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,160 bit about the Mad Greek restaurant, which was one of 475 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,759 the top vegetarian restaurants in Moscow, Idaho. Apparently it was 476 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,519 very popular, and did one or two of the young 477 00:27:35,559 --> 00:27:36,519 women work there? 478 00:27:37,079 --> 00:27:40,519 Speaker 3: I think it was true. I think both Mattie and 479 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:41,319 Cayley did. 480 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: We'll find out more and obviously report more information, But 481 00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:50,079 the three hundred files that have been released related to 482 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,000 the cases, there may be more things that can be 483 00:27:53,079 --> 00:27:58,480 gleaned from those files regarding how Coberger ended up targeting 484 00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:59,920 this group of young people. 485 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 3: And these three big takeaways, by the way, came from 486 00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:06,039 an article in the New York Times where they were 487 00:28:06,039 --> 00:28:08,519 breaking down here's what we've read in no so far. 488 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,319 The second big takeaway is that Maddie and Kaylee were 489 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,920 so badly disfigured after Coburger's attack that Dylan Mortenson, who 490 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,920 had to identify the bodies, could not tell which girl 491 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,319 was which. That's a horror show in and of itself. 492 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, when I read this, I was so disturbed. It 493 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,960 does seem like a targeted killing, and it does seem 494 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,720 that Maddie and Kayley were the people that he was pursuing. 495 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,759 But man, this kind of detail, you're just horrified when 496 00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:39,279 you read it. 497 00:28:39,839 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 3: The third takeaway is that Xanna had massive defensive wounds 498 00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:47,880 and put up one hell of a fight. It's being 499 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,160 positive that when she went to get her door dash order, 500 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,880 she crossed paths with Coburger after he had killed Kayley 501 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,599 and Maddie. He chased her from the third floor to 502 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,559 the second and then murdered her and Ethan. But Xanna 503 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,400 apparently put up one hell of a fight and the process, 504 00:29:01,599 --> 00:29:05,200 it's all bad It's all terrible, but the idea that 505 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,839 she and Ethan ultimately with collateral damage makes it even 506 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,359 worse somehow, Yeah, all of it is awful. We will 507 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,680 have more information on those documents once we've had a 508 00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:18,240 chance to look at them more closely. I'm still trying 509 00:29:18,279 --> 00:29:22,720 to finish summer vacation builds deep in projects for crime 510 00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:24,920 con and various other things, so none of us have 511 00:29:25,079 --> 00:29:27,720 a chance to really dig into three hundred documents. But 512 00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:30,519 we will try, and as soon as we have information 513 00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:34,400 available on those, will report more closely. Summer's going really fast. 514 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,920 I've only got two weeks left to vacation, unfortunately, until 515 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,000 teachers go back to school. 516 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 2: That of itself is surprising. 517 00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:44,119 Speaker 3: Yet, Yeah, summer doesn't last until the end of August anymore. 518 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,160 Teachers go back on the thirteenth of August, which that's garbage. 519 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,759 I hate that. Really, summer really is only two months now. 520 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,519 But I'm not bitter about that in any way, shape 521 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,839 or form. She said bitterly. Bill, Do you have any 522 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,359 final thoughts on the victims and statements in this case 523 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:02,279 or anything else. 524 00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: I love the idea of victims' impact statements. I think 525 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,400 they give power and ownership back to family and friends 526 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:14,559 of lost loved ones. So I think there's a great 527 00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:17,640 deal of benefit to that, and I think being given 528 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,599 the opportunity to speak from the heart in a court 529 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:26,039 of law, looking directly at the offender or not. I 530 00:30:26,079 --> 00:30:30,599 love the way that different family members chose to position 531 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,480 themselves physically so they're either directly looking at coburger if 532 00:30:35,519 --> 00:30:39,720 they thought that was most impactful. Steve Gonzalvus seemed to 533 00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:44,279 take that approach, whereas other family members literally turned their 534 00:30:44,319 --> 00:30:48,559 back on buying coburger and spoke directly to the families 535 00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:51,799 because that's who their message was for. I think that 536 00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:56,440 ability to take back one's own power and purpose in 537 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,839 life is incredibly important, particularly for these people who have 538 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,519 to move forward with their lives and find a way 539 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,160 to move forward. I think this can be very meaningful 540 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:11,880 and important, and I hope that the family and friends 541 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,759 of these four young people walked away from that experience 542 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:21,559 feeling positive about their opportunity to speak in such an 543 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,960 impactful way. I had a tremendous impact on the two 544 00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:28,720 of us, and I'm sure on millions of other people worldwide, 545 00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:33,559 because it's great to give these families a voice agree. 546 00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 3: To one hundred percent. I would say that for anybody 547 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,680 who has been with this case from the beginning, if 548 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,839 you have not had a chance to watch the victim's 549 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:45,400 impact statements, please do. If there's anything that can be 550 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,119 gleaned as rewarding from this case, it is that it 551 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,759 is the ability to see what true courage and grace 552 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,240 looks like in the midst of almost unbearable tragedy. I 553 00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:01,559 really just have to tip my hat to all of 554 00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:04,160 the family members who were brave enough to stand up there, 555 00:32:04,359 --> 00:32:08,039 because that cannot be easy. I am hoping, as you 556 00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:10,799 are hoping, that it was a rewarding experience for them. 557 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,799 Thank you all for hanging out with us while we 558 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,160 covered the victim's impact statements and the Brand Coburger sentencing hearing. 559 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,359 We appreciate you hanging in there. If you are planning 560 00:32:21,359 --> 00:32:23,240 on going to crime Con and you have not yet 561 00:32:23,359 --> 00:32:27,160 ordered your tickets, please do you use our code mind 562 00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:30,279 over murder all caps because that does help us with 563 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:34,039 some of our expenses. We will be in crime Con 564 00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:38,000 in Denver for Crime Con September five, sixty seven. We 565 00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:43,039 will be debuting some new stickers, among other things at 566 00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:46,440 our table, so Please do you consider buying tickets to 567 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,440 Crime Con if you haven't done so already, and stopping 568 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,759 by to see us on Creators Real That is going 569 00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:52,519 to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. 570 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,160 Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 571 00:33:05,519 --> 00:33:09,039 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 572 00:33:09,119 --> 00:33:10,559 Another Dog Productions. 573 00:33:11,119 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 574 00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 575 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 576 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,359 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 577 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,319 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 578 00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:31,079 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 579 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,000 Murders on Facebook. 580 00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:35,799 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 581 00:33:35,839 --> 00:33:37,440 Bill Thomas five six. 582 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.