Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: One of these days I'm going to throw you off
and say I'm Bill Thomas, and see if you circle
around and say I'm Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 2: And I'm just going to say and I'm Kristin Dilly
and won't even acknowledge the fact that you've thrown me
a croupall I try it. Sometimes.
Speaker 3: We are back to continue our coverage on the sentencing
hearing for Brian Koberger and the victim's impact statements from
the families in the Idaho for quadruple murder case. We
left off last time with the statement from Stratton Kernadal,
who is Sata Cernadal's uncle, who said that he felt
sorry for Brian Koberger's family because the name is now
tainted by their association with him. Essentially. What do you
think about that declaration, mister Thomas.
Speaker 2: I think it's it's very fair, it's very high minded.
It's the sympathy expressed in saying that he felt sorry
for the Coborger family. It's incredibly gracious. I found it
very striking because I've seen people attacking the Coburger family
online in the past few weeks, especially since the plea
deal arrangement was announced. It's one thing to be angry
with Brian Coburger, who deserves all of our disdain and
maybe even hate. I can't find myself, as much as
I might dislike Brian Coberger and what he did intensely,
I can't blame his family for that. You could make
a case that on some level they're victims too. Yeah,
I've seen some just insane drivel online a lot of discussions.
We follow a lot of true crime groups and sometimes
participate in the conversation. People are saying things like his
sister is looking for her fifteen minutes of fame and
she's a failed performer, and that the father basically helped
Coburger escape, which is ludicrous. They made arrangements shortly after
the murders for Coburger to drive across the country. This
is all the way from Washington State, where he was
working on his doctorate, to Pennsylvania, where his family lived.
They were heading into the holiday break, and there would
have been a semester break there as well. I don't
think the father was attempting to help Coburger escape from
law enforcement. We heard a lot about that trip, and
there are a lot of odd details which have always
made me scratch my head, like how in the world
did they end up getting pulled over by the cops
twice in the same day. The whole thing felt very strange.
I think some of those traffic stops were intentional. I
don't think the family had any idea that Coberger was
a quadruple murderer. Were they aware of the fact that
he'd had a troubled period as a young person. Without
a doubt, he was a heavy sat kid that was
made fun of. He ultimately became a heroin addict at
one point. He's got a very troubled background, so they
certainly were aware of some of his troubles, but I
don't think they had any idea that he was a murderer.
I have and add a complete loss as to why
people would attack the Coburger family. It's one thing to
say Brian Colberger is a sick person and what he
did was horrible, and even people expressing the sentiment that
they hope he burns in hell. I get it. I
totally get it. I don't disagree with any of that,
But the idea that we're going to attack his mother
and his father and his sister, this is craziness.
Speaker 3: Hey, Catherine Ramslin was good enough to send me her
newest blog post in psychology today. For anybody who isn't familiar,
she does have a regular blog post on their website.
Today's blog post was addressing the idea that I think
a lot of people have a hard time with that
the families of serial killers and spree killers and other murders,
how could they not have had any idea what they
were doing, and she addresses the idea that a lot
of times they really don't for a number of reasons,
for cognitive biases or a pen andy to try to
overlook the bad as a phase, something that they're going
to grow out of. She used two examples that I
thought were particularly excellent, and we did put a link
to this up on Mind over Murder already and we
encourage you to take a look at it. She used
the example of Rex Huerman's wife, who has steadfastly declared
that she did not believe that her husband was a
serial murderer. She also used the example of Jeffrey Dahmer's father,
Lionel Dahmer, who wrote a really searing book about his
son after everything, of course, had come out about the
terrible things that Jeffrey Dahmer had done. Catherine pulls examples
from that book of the ways that Lionel Dahmer excuses
the odd behavior of his son as, oh, it's a phase,
he was going to grow out of it, or he
bought into the things that Dahmer told him as reasons
for here's why it smells awful in my apartment. Here
is why I can explain this big walk in freezer
that I just bought. Catherine says that there are a
lot of ways that people can be living with a
monster and just not see it or know it. There
is no reason for people to attack the family with
you must have known. How could you have raised him?
Why didn't you see it? It's very possible for a
family to live with these people and not see it
and not know it. I think that attacking the Coburger family,
like you said, is just a truly awful thing to do.
They are victims as well. They did not ask for
their son to be a spree killer. They did not
ask for the notoriety that is going to come with this.
They did not ask for their name to be tainted
because of what he has done. They are victims and
this as well, This sort of online fear that comes
around this is really just emblematic to me of the
problem that we continue to have in the true crime community,
which is that people need to show a little more empathy,
a little more compassion, and a little more grace. None
of these people asked to be thrown in this situation.
You don't have to make it worse.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more, and a couple of quick thoughts
came to mind. One is, none of us could ever
say that we completely understand what's going on inside someone
else's head. No matter, how will you know somebody they
could be your husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, partner, business partner,
you name it, it turns out they've done something terrible.
How would you know before that act has occurred. How
could you ever know unless they had expressed something that
was alarming to you. So even something as close as
a mother son father son relationship, there's no way you're
going to be able to tell me everything that's inside
that person's head. All those jokes about oh he was
a quo man and Brian Koberger that kind of fits
here too. The idea that people are going to be
so angry, I understand it, and I sometimes share their viewpoint,
But we need to be angry with the offender, not
with their family. You and I've talked about this before. You,
as a teacher, have had a few students over the
years that got into very serious trouble. Yeah, and there's
some terrible stories. We won't get into them here, but
some people that were in your classroom have done terrible
things to other people. Someone might say to you, you
had so and so as a student, didn't you see
anything wrong? And most of the time, no matter how
good a teacher you are. Katherine Ramsland is a great
example of this. She's a brilliant professor and a criminologist
and a criminal psychologist. How is she supposed to know
what a former student of hers is capable of doing.
There can be a darkness inside any number of people,
and that we might not ever know it unless it
manifests itself and they act out in some way, and
then sometimes terrible stories come out of the actions taken
by these people. There's no way you're going to know
this stuff because even situations like the Long Island serial
killer case with Rex Huerman, his wife maintains that she
doesn't accept the fact that he's a murderer. And maybe
from what she saw and what she heard and what
she experienced, there's a disconnect between her life with her
husband and these terrible things that he did. But he
would do these things typically when she and the kids
were out of town. As a matter of fact, there
seems to be a very strong pattern in the human
case of him acting out in these terrible ways. When
they were on vacation, she'd be out of town or
sometimes even out of the country with their kids. That's
when he would perform these killings. How would she know
that he seemed to have that capability? And I think
for a lot of offenders, they are able to keep
that dark part of them hidden away in a very
effective way.
Speaker 3: When Catherine did her study with Dennis Rader, she said
exactly the same thing. He cubed his personality so that
the good father and the serial killer, never the twain
shall meet. Carrie Rosson has been a guest at crime
con for a number of years now, and she would
tell you the same thing. The dad that she knew
and the dad that she loved and the BTK serial killer.
She doesn't know how to conflate the two of them,
blaming the families of serial killers or assuming and again
this is more Monday morning quarterbacking, assuming that a mentor
or a friend, or a teacher or someone else should
have been able to see it coming. We just cannot know.
That human behavior is just too deep and too fathomless.
It is why, even though we love criminal profilers, criminal
profiling is still an inexact science. We cannot really know.
We can only know to a certain extent. I think
what human behavior is ultimately going.
Speaker 2: To look like. And lashing out at the Coburger family,
for example, or trying to affix blame to bind Coburger's
family in Pennsylvania, I think is beyond absurd. It's cruel,
and we have to find a way to focus on
the offender their behaviors. We may want to study this
person to try to develop an understanding of how what happened,
but I don't think you can turn around and blame
his family, his associates. How were they supposed to know
that this darkness lived within this guy?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Agreed? Agreed. We have two final people who spoke
as part of the victim's impact statement portion of the hearing,
So I want to run down those very quickly, not
o stuff other Randy Davis spoke. He stated that he
had written his thoughts down, but he ultimately opted not
to read what he wrote. Instead, he shared a story
about Xana. In a very interesting move, He turned his
back on Coburger and faced toward the families as he
spoke it because he said that Coberger had enough of Xana.
The story was meant only for the families, which I
thought was an interesting way to approach it. He also
spoke of his love, admiration, and respect for the other families,
and then he turned back to Brian Coburger and addressed
him directly, stating, you're going to hell. You took our children.
And then right at the end you could tell he
was going off script here for a second. He said,
I don't know how far I'm allowed to go with
this in the courtroom, your honor, but he looked at
Coberger and said, I would like to take you out
in the woods myself for five minutes. I applaud you, sir,
I understand that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the judge gave the families a fair
amount of leeway, and I'm actually glad that he did that,
because this is not the time to restrict what the
families had to say and the freedom of expression. And
I think it's very important and even cathartic for family
members like Randy Davis to be permitted to actually speak
their mind.
Speaker 3: Sure, and the last person to speak was Karen Northington,
who was Xana Cernadle's mother. She had what I would
say is the most overtly religious victim's impact statement she
quoted from the Bible. I think it was from Ephesians.
The lines that spoke out to me the most were this,
It is Christ who lives in me who has given
me the strength to forgive you, you who murdered my
daughter without being sorry. This forgiveness has released me from
any and all evil you've inflicted on my family. She
echoed her husband's statements of not wanting to share memories
of Xana because she did not want her daughter in
Brian Coberger's head. She finished by stating, after today I
wash my hands of you.
Speaker 2: Wow again that the dismissive attitude of the families towards
Coburger completely deserved and very understandable. They really want to
move on and they're done with this guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I've lived with this since twenty twenty two.
This has been a long road for them. Every single
bit of it has been in the media spotlight, with
intense international pressure and focus, with a ton of media harassment,
thrown in, social media harassment, lots of attention. This was
one of those cases where you had a lot of
people scrambling to make documentaries. You had a lot of
influencers who would show up in Moscow and do tiktoks
in front of the King Rod residents and everywhere else
that they could. I can totally understand them wanting to
be like, we're done, We're done, We're taking our lives back.
I cannot imagine the kind of nightmare that this was
for them. You can imagine it, I know, because the
All Neo park waymurders has received more than its share
of media attention, but absolutely not to the level that
the Idaho four case has gotten.
Speaker 2: But I can certainly put myself in their place, and
I think developed an understanding of kind of where they're
coming from.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. When the victims' impact statements were finished, Prosecutor Bill
Thompson Rosen spoke. He showed a photo of each victim
as he stated each count against Brian Coberger, which I
particularly appreciated. He requested for each sentence to be fixed
life and to run consecutively, which means back to back
rather than concurrently, which is altogether. He didn't allow tears
into his voice, but he did wipe his eyes a
couple of times, and he finished with the now famous
photo of all four victims and the surviving two roommates
Bethany and Dylan, and that photo actually prompted I noticed
even Judge Hippler had to dab at his eyes.
Speaker 2: I actually really liked Judge Hippler, and I thought he
handled himself and all of the various steps along the
away very well. Even he was impacted by seeing all
six of these young people in the photograph.
Speaker 3: Sure, and at this point, when asked if Brian Coberger
had a statement to give, he said the only thing
that he said during the hearing, which is, I respectfully decline.
First of all, there's nothing respectful about your decline, you motherfucker.
I'm so sorry. We don't normally curse on this show.
We really try not to. But I hate this guy.
I hate him with every fiber of my being. And
after watching victims Impact statements all day and then watching
the Idaho documentaries, I had a panic attack dream the
following night that Brian Coberger was in my house. I
didn't sleep for another couple of hours. So one hundred
percent I hate this guy and I don't feel bad
calling him that. So sorry for anybody who hates the
fact that I called him a motherfucker, but he is.
Speaker 2: This is two podcasts in a row Kristin Dilly that
you yeah, sworn.
Speaker 3: The first was in a quote though, so it doesn't count.
Speaker 2: Oh that I guess that's true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the first wasn't a quote, so it doesn't count.
But yeah, he refused to give a statement, and as
we covered at the top of last podcast, he cannot
be legally compelled to make a statement. Bill, reiterate for
us your thoughts about Coburger and his refusal to give
a statement.
Speaker 2: When I first learned that he might not be required
to aloque, I was profoundly disappointed. Over the last couple
of weeks, I've allowed myself to be a bit more
zen about that, and Judge Hipler had a number of
interesting things to say about that. Since we now have
learned and he can't be required to aloqute and it's
his choice at the sentencing hearing. As the judge points out,
we don't know what he would have said or even
if there's any relationship to the truth. So I'm not
certain that him speaking even at length or answering questions
at length, was really going to provide any kind of
satisfactory or reasonable explanation for why he killed four young
people that we aren't even certain he had much of
any relationship with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed the judge basically like in his closing statement,
which I'm going to read portions of in a second,
he acknowledged the lack of statement, he said by continuing
to focus on why we continue to give him agency
and power. Even if I could legally compel him to speak,
which I cannot, no conceivable reason given could make any sense.
And he also said, as you just pointed out, there's
no way of knowing whether or not anything Coburger said
would be the truth. So he simply ended that portion
of his statement by saying, the time has now come
to end Brian Coberger's fifteen minutes of fame. And you
know what, I agree.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've come around on this one. I was very disappointed,
but now I understand it. The judge has parameters that
he needs to follow as well, and he can't force
Coberger to cough up why this happened, even if he
explained it to us in his own words. I'm not
sure it would make a bit of difference.
Speaker 3: I don't think so. Either.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder, We'll be right back
after this word from our sponsors, We're back here at
mindover Murder.
Speaker 3: I would say the best quote from Judge Hippler was
this one, and as soon as I heard it, I
was like, I got to write this down. I got
to say it to Bill. He said, the justice system
labels the surviving families as victims, but going forward, I
hope they can shed that label as it gives too
much power to evil. Let them be known as survivors
and fighters.
Speaker 2: I really that.
Speaker 3: I really like that too, because it again, it takes
back the narrative. It takes the power away from Coburger
and gives it back to them. From everyone that I
have known so far in my career in the true
crime space, I would say, every person that I have
met who has survived in some way or another is
a survivor and is a fighter. And shutting the victim
label and saying that you're a survivor of something, I
am a rape survivor, not a rape victim, for example.
That gives you power and it takes away something from
the perpetrator. So I really like that he said that,
and I think that it's I think it's something that
people need to focus on more. When we talk about victims,
Let's call them survivors instead.
Speaker 2: I agree, and I'm going to try to do that
more often going forward. And many of the people that
you and I have met over the last decade who
are survivors, they are embracing that word, and I think
think that's it gives you your power back. It gives
you ownership of your survival and your perseverance. Many of
these people, some of them we've talked about in these
two episodes, have been through horrific experiences, but they came
out on the other side and there's light ahead of
them and they can move forward with their lives. I'm
not saying their lives are perfect before or after, but
there is an opportunity to take ownership of your own
life again and move forward. And for these people who
have suffered a loss, and I think I can identify
with these families and friends, it's really important that they
feel that their lives will continue to have purpose and positivity.
Life will go on. I have said before about this
experience of losing my sister. It never gets easy, but
it does, over time get a little bit easier to bear.
It's so slow and so incremental, you can't really feel
it happening at the time. Over time, the burden becomes
somewhat lighter, and you focus on the life of your
loved one and not their death.
Speaker 3: The judge then imposed the following sentences upon Brian Coberger.
On count one of burglary, a sentence of ten years
and a fifty thousand dollars fine. On count two, the
murder of Matty Mogan, life without the possibility of parole,
a fifty thousand dollars fine and a five thousand dollars
civil penalty each count for each of the victims received
the same sentence, culminitting in four consecutive life sentences without
the possibility of parole, a total of two hundred and
fifty thousand dollars in fines and a total of twenty
thousand dollars in civil penalties as restitution to the families.
Speaker 2: Now, I'm not sure how Copberger would ever pay this.
You mentioned this of Sam Laws. I wouldn't be surprised
down the road if Coburger ends up doing interviews or
maybe writes a book, participates in the making of documentary
if that's permitted by his keepers in the Idaho penitentiary,
where he'll be likely housed. It is very interesting to
remind people that he cannot economically benefit from these murders.
Speaker 3: So I first texted in and then talked to Cheryl
McCullum earlier today to ask her about the difference between
the fifty thousand dollars fine and the five thousand dollars
civil penalty. So she offered me some insight on that,
and I'm just going to go ahead and read you
the text exchange that I had with her. So I said, Matt,
can you tell me the difference between the fifty k
fine leveled in the Idaho four case for each kind
of murder and the five thousand dollars civil penalties? Oh
to the families. What does the fifty k go toward?
Is at court costs? And if you can't pay, where
does the money come from? So here's what she said.
The fifty thousand dollars normally, if it's a felony, goes
toward the crime victim's compensation fund. As a whole, five
thousand dollars goes directly to the family for out of
pocket expenses such as funerals. Any fees or fines can
go toward a general fund that can go to law
enforcement or court cases that they but it is up
to them to designate where the money goes. She says,
I don't know the Idaho system, but that two hundred
and fifty thousand dollars, if they were to place it
in a general fund, can go anywhere if they earmarked it.
Because of the severity of this case, it is probably
going to go straight to victims compensation.
Speaker 2: I still am not sure. And from what I've read
about the Coburger family, they went through significant financial struggles
some years back. As a matter of fact, I think
they may have faced bankruptcy at one point. I'm not
sure they're rolling in dough and are going to be
able to pay these fines.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they wouldn't be responsible for it, according to
I also talked to Nikki Jackson and she said they
would not be responsible for it if Coburger can't pay. Unfortunately,
the finds just they sit there. If he can't pay,
they don't get paid.
Speaker 2: They hang over his head, but he isn't required to
pay them if he doesn't have the money.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were again. Another thing Mac and Catherine Ramsland
and I were all talking about is the son of
Sam laws and who can and cannot profit from these
book deals or whatever that he may end up doing.
We don't know that he will, but he cannot legally
profit from it, and if he did, then that money
would go to the families of the victims.
Speaker 2: The Son of Sam laws were introduced after David Berkerwitz,
the Son of Sam killer, he profited from I think
it was a book deal, and there was a tremendous
amount of public outrage when people found out that he
was making money by telling his story, which is really
the story of his victims. Laws were introduced and passed
that event killers like this or offenders like this from
benefiting economically from their own crime.
Speaker 3: After the sentencing hearing, more than three hundred files related
to the case were unsealed for public examination. Remember there
had been a gag order on this most of the
people involved for a long time, but there was after
the hearing a release of files. We're going to delve
into those at a little bit of a later date.
We don't have time for it now, but I would
say that the three big takeaways from those files are these.
Number one takeaway there is still no identifiable link between
Brian Koberger and the victims. They did not have links
via social media, they did not have a link via
the Mad Greek restaurant. Nothing has arisen that shows how
Brian Koberger knew them and targeted them, which is bizarre.
Speaker 2: But it's still a question that bothers me because, yes,
it's very hard to figure out how these four young
people moved onto Coburger's radar. Remember, he's going to school
for his doctoral program at the University of Washington. He's
fifteen or twenty minutes away, actually in another state. We
know that he passed by their home numerous times in
the weeks leading up to the murders based on cell
phone records. It's still not clear how these young people
moved on to his radar. And remember reading quite a
bit about the Mad Greek restaurant, which was one of
the top vegetarian restaurants in Moscow, Idaho. Apparently it was
very popular, and did one or two of the young
women work there?
Speaker 3: I think it was true. I think both Mattie and
Cayley did.
Speaker 2: We'll find out more and obviously report more information, But
the three hundred files that have been released related to
the cases, there may be more things that can be
gleaned from those files regarding how Coberger ended up targeting
this group of young people.
Speaker 3: And these three big takeaways, by the way, came from
an article in the New York Times where they were
breaking down here's what we've read in no so far.
The second big takeaway is that Maddie and Kaylee were
so badly disfigured after Coburger's attack that Dylan Mortenson, who
had to identify the bodies, could not tell which girl
was which. That's a horror show in and of itself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I read this, I was so disturbed. It
does seem like a targeted killing, and it does seem
that Maddie and Kayley were the people that he was pursuing.
But man, this kind of detail, you're just horrified when
you read it.
Speaker 3: The third takeaway is that Xanna had massive defensive wounds
and put up one hell of a fight. It's being
positive that when she went to get her door dash order,
she crossed paths with Coburger after he had killed Kayley
and Maddie. He chased her from the third floor to
the second and then murdered her and Ethan. But Xanna
apparently put up one hell of a fight and the process,
it's all bad It's all terrible, but the idea that
she and Ethan ultimately with collateral damage makes it even
worse somehow, Yeah, all of it is awful. We will
have more information on those documents once we've had a
chance to look at them more closely. I'm still trying
to finish summer vacation builds deep in projects for crime
con and various other things, so none of us have
a chance to really dig into three hundred documents. But
we will try, and as soon as we have information
available on those, will report more closely. Summer's going really fast.
I've only got two weeks left to vacation, unfortunately, until
teachers go back to school.
Speaker 2: That of itself is surprising.
Speaker 3: Yet, Yeah, summer doesn't last until the end of August anymore.
Teachers go back on the thirteenth of August, which that's garbage.
I hate that. Really, summer really is only two months now.
But I'm not bitter about that in any way, shape
or form. She said bitterly. Bill, Do you have any
final thoughts on the victims and statements in this case
or anything else.
Speaker 2: I love the idea of victims' impact statements. I think
they give power and ownership back to family and friends
of lost loved ones. So I think there's a great
deal of benefit to that, and I think being given
the opportunity to speak from the heart in a court
of law, looking directly at the offender or not. I
love the way that different family members chose to position
themselves physically so they're either directly looking at coburger if
they thought that was most impactful. Steve Gonzalvus seemed to
take that approach, whereas other family members literally turned their
back on buying coburger and spoke directly to the families
because that's who their message was for. I think that
ability to take back one's own power and purpose in
life is incredibly important, particularly for these people who have
to move forward with their lives and find a way
to move forward. I think this can be very meaningful
and important, and I hope that the family and friends
of these four young people walked away from that experience
feeling positive about their opportunity to speak in such an
impactful way. I had a tremendous impact on the two
of us, and I'm sure on millions of other people worldwide,
because it's great to give these families a voice agree.
Speaker 3: To one hundred percent. I would say that for anybody
who has been with this case from the beginning, if
you have not had a chance to watch the victim's
impact statements, please do. If there's anything that can be
gleaned as rewarding from this case, it is that it
is the ability to see what true courage and grace
looks like in the midst of almost unbearable tragedy. I
really just have to tip my hat to all of
the family members who were brave enough to stand up there,
because that cannot be easy. I am hoping, as you
are hoping, that it was a rewarding experience for them.
Thank you all for hanging out with us while we
covered the victim's impact statements and the Brand Coburger sentencing hearing.
We appreciate you hanging in there. If you are planning
on going to crime Con and you have not yet
ordered your tickets, please do you use our code mind
over murder all caps because that does help us with
some of our expenses. We will be in crime Con
in Denver for Crime Con September five, sixty seven. We
will be debuting some new stickers, among other things at
our table, so Please do you consider buying tickets to
Crime Con if you haven't done so already, and stopping
by to see us on Creators Real That is going
to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder.
Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.