Speaker 1: You see somethings going to happen?
Speaker 2: What what's going to happen? I'll take one?
Speaker 3: What help?
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Occult Rejects this episode, I got a
Speaker 2: very very special guest, probably more of a guest for
Speaker 2: me than the listeners. Really, somebody's that was very influential
Speaker 2: in me when I started my I guess my practice
Speaker 2: and getting into a cultism. But before we introduced David,
Speaker 2: we'll introduce the rest of the Rejects. Marx. How are you, sir?
Speaker 2: What's going on?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm doing well. Thanks, Yeah, I'm I've been into
Speaker 3: the occult for years, started reading into it when I
Speaker 3: was you know, around probably fourteen or fifteen. But I
Speaker 3: do artwork for bands, festivals, different stuff. If you want
Speaker 3: to check out any of my stuff, my podcast or work,
Speaker 3: you could check out link tree at.
Speaker 4: R M A r X.
Speaker 3: And thanks for having me on, Nick.
Speaker 2: Of course, thank you very much, Robbie, appreciate you making
Speaker 2: the time and for maybe new listeners if they have
Speaker 2: not heard of Robbie Marks before, please go check out
Speaker 2: some of the oldest shows. It's story time with Robbie.
Speaker 2: Lots of information and you know, I'm very happy to
Speaker 2: have him on the show. You'res eros, We'll try one
Speaker 2: more time. You good to go. No, it's still not working. Damn.
Speaker 2: I am sorry. All right, Jin, sir, how are you?
Speaker 4: I'm really nervous.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Nick for inviting me on this
Speaker 5: incredible discussion with David, and I'm a huge fan and
Speaker 5: I am trying not to fan boy. Matt knows I
Speaker 5: was nervous because I texted him before we recorded, as.
Speaker 4: Well as you Nick, So thank you so much. David.
Speaker 5: I've never been had a spirit based practice particularly, I
Speaker 5: really started out as most younger millennial boys you in
Speaker 5: more of a chaos magic sort of like framework, and
Speaker 5: now I'm a Tondric Buddhist. So that's how I'm very
Speaker 5: familiar with Mike McGee and.
Speaker 4: The a on of.
Speaker 5: Mott Workings and frederichad and stuff that we work on
Speaker 5: in the Gray Lodge, as well as my show Threshold Saints.
Speaker 5: So if people are interested in what I do, and
Speaker 5: I also of course Matt Murra because he is my
Speaker 5: brother in the Gray Lodge. But if you're interested in
Speaker 5: check me out on Threshold Saints and IG and twitter
Speaker 5: x at Threshold Saints or my personal account at Wukong
Speaker 5: Reborn and also the our Gray Lodge website which obviously
Speaker 5: mattmur is our webmaster, so the True Gray Lodge dot
Speaker 5: com t r ve gray Lodge dot com and we
Speaker 5: do speculative Cabbala, speculative to calichakra, and speculative narcissism every
Speaker 5: Friday night live recorded for YouTube.
Speaker 4: So thank you guys so much, appreciate.
Speaker 2: It, Thank you for making it, sir. Yeah, for real,
Speaker 2: everybody go check out that spaces if you have that
Speaker 2: very very good stuff.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 2: And next we'll Headless Giant. What is going on, sir?
Speaker 2: How you doing?
Speaker 1: Nick?
Speaker 6: You can find me at the Headless Giant Podcast at
Speaker 6: gmail dot com. If you have any sort of esoteric stories,
Speaker 6: me and Nick will read them out to you on
Speaker 6: Thursday along with our symbolic studies as well on Thursday,
Speaker 6: so check that out. And also I've got a show
Speaker 6: called Alchemy Mondays with Aros talking about alchemy doing alchemical experiments.
Speaker 6: And I've also got the Trialogus coming up tomorrow with
Speaker 6: Ethan Indigo and Ricardo, so check those out.
Speaker 4: You can yeah find me on Instagram.
Speaker 6: Twitter and YouTube. We did a great show on the
Speaker 6: Delphic Oracles last night. Check that one out as well.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that one was a lot of fun actually, And
Speaker 2: Matt Moore, what is going on, sir?
Speaker 1: Hey?
Speaker 7: You happy to be here, thanks again for calling me.
Speaker 7: Glad and very appreciate that I could meet to David
Speaker 7: Irol and that was three fun the Soul Society event.
Speaker 7: So Mett moura as Jin Motor saying we have spaces
Speaker 7: yesterday spaces was pretty nice. We always then repost them
Speaker 7: on YouTube on Wednesdays. And there's also my website that's
Speaker 7: Kabala dot com k A A b a l ah
Speaker 7: dot com. A lot of cool stuff coming up there
Speaker 7: is also make sure to follow me on my socials.
Speaker 7: The handles right here at Madmore nineteen. So pretty excited
Speaker 7: for today.
Speaker 2: All right, thank you very much, man, I appreciate you
Speaker 2: coming on. And last, if we can get her to
Speaker 2: work erros, let's see if it works.
Speaker 8: Now, can you hear me?
Speaker 1: Now? Cool?
Speaker 8: Great, It's awesome to meet you, David, thanks for coming,
Speaker 8: Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 7: Nick.
Speaker 8: You can find me on YouTube at arrows Up and
Speaker 8: you can find me on Twitter at rost et Thos.
Speaker 8: I'm a functional and archetypal astrologer and I post a
Speaker 8: lot about metaphysics as well.
Speaker 2: Definitely go check out her stuff. She has done some
Speaker 2: great work on the indiads as well, And if you
Speaker 2: haven't seen this stuff that she's done on the show,
Speaker 2: please go back and check it out. For me, this
Speaker 2: is a very special guest. His elemental and planetary books
Speaker 2: for staples for me and a constant reference from what
Speaker 2: I didn't memorize already in his books. For people who
Speaker 2: have been listening to the show for a while for
Speaker 2: the last few years, you probably have heard me mention
Speaker 2: him plenty of times whenever I've referred to planetary or
Speaker 2: elemental stuff. I've even like pulled up some of his
Speaker 2: pages to show like the associations, to show where I
Speaker 2: got it from. This is the man. So for me,
Speaker 2: it's amazing to actually have this guy on the show.
Speaker 2: I never would have thought, I guess maybe ten fifteen
Speaker 2: years ago when I was getting into this, i'd actually
Speaker 2: be talking to the man that wrote the book. So David,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on. This is like
Speaker 2: mind blowing for me. Please, whatever I didn't mention that,
Speaker 2: maybe you want to plug, please let everybody know what
Speaker 2: your deal is.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Well for quite some time. I
Speaker 1: suppose my stuff's been very much focused on with Gridmars,
Speaker 1: So he's just you mentioned the Grandma's Cyclopedia, which took
Speaker 1: me three years of daily writing and research to put together.
Speaker 1: And doing that and getting the panoramic perspective that it
Speaker 1: gave kind of shaped what's come since, and I wanted
Speaker 1: to more patful manual stuff up just Clovers and Telgentiaram
Speaker 1: and the new one the follow on to that, which
Speaker 1: has just come out of clave As Spiritum, which is
Speaker 1: keeping true to the fidelity of the Greenmart tradition but
Speaker 1: evolving it into the twenty first century and restoring bits
Speaker 1: that I've got lost or leaving our bits that don't
Speaker 1: necessarily need to be there, and trying to make it
Speaker 1: a lot more accessible for people. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: been where my focus has been in recent years.
Speaker 2: Very nice, I guess, I mean, I know you kind
Speaker 2: of like I'm just now kind of specified a little bit,
Speaker 2: but I mean that I wanted to go on the
Speaker 2: planetary and elemental magic. But maybe this is just a
Speaker 2: question we kind of be for the newer ones and
Speaker 2: those books. What was it that you're bringing to the
Speaker 2: table that do you think actually makes it makes your
Speaker 2: stuff different than what's out there.
Speaker 1: Well, it was one thing it's not different from everyone,
Speaker 1: but for some is that I write about the stuff
Speaker 1: that I have practiced, and that I get other people
Speaker 1: to test and practice as well. Because you know, when
Speaker 1: I was younger and I saw some books going out
Speaker 1: that I spoke to the authors of, and they hadn't
Speaker 1: even done some of the practices they were writing about.
Speaker 1: Quite horrified me. This is decades ago. Now, I would
Speaker 1: stress I'm not making that claim towards any modern authors,
Speaker 1: but at the time, I thought, if I write, I
Speaker 1: want to make sure I'm writing about things that I've done,
Speaker 1: I would hope. So I think that, Well, the feedback
Speaker 1: I get from people is they like my stuff because
Speaker 1: it's very accessible and down to earth. But I mean
Speaker 1: it's well, I'm very academic in the point of view
Speaker 1: of well not academia, but I heavily put note and
Speaker 1: reference my stuff so people can see where the materials
Speaker 1: coming from, they can track things back. But I like
Speaker 1: to also put things in as simpler form as possible,
Speaker 1: because I have this little philosophy that magic isn't complex,
Speaker 1: it's layers for simplicity, the build upon each other. And
Speaker 1: you know, when as soon as you start trying to
Speaker 1: box stuff and tell people that things are complex, so
Speaker 1: when you start putting barriers in front of people, and
Speaker 1: so if you view it as layers of simplicity the
Speaker 1: build on each other, it's a much more practical way
Speaker 1: to approach. And that's kind of reflected in my writings
Speaker 1: that it's that's you know, as you read through, it's
Speaker 1: like you can see, oh, this builds on this, this
Speaker 1: builds on this. So what I get told by Pep
Speaker 1: is they like that they don't feel that I'm talking
Speaker 1: down to them, but they feel like they was having
Speaker 1: a conversation with me in the books because it's just
Speaker 1: in a nice, simple style. You know, I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to use lots of big words to impress, and anything
Speaker 1: that I think might be clarifying, there'll usually be a
Speaker 1: footnote or anywhere I'm referring to text as usually a footnote,
Speaker 1: so that people, like I say, can see where the
Speaker 1: thought process was followed themselves as decide if they agree
Speaker 1: or disagree with the conclusions. You know, I don't claim
Speaker 1: that my stuff is the only way or the best way.
Speaker 1: It's like the way that has worked for me, and
Speaker 1: if other people feedback to me set it works them
Speaker 1: as well, then that's fantastic because the reason for me
Speaker 1: putting the stuff out there is to offer people stuff
Speaker 1: that I have found, you know, test it and works,
Speaker 1: and that hopefully will work for them as well. A
Speaker 1: really good example is, you know the stuff I've been
Speaker 1: doing recently with the winds, which is in Clave Spiritum
Speaker 1: for spirit conduration. When I got prompted by my spirits
Speaker 1: to look into the winds and then I'm usually went
Speaker 1: started looking at texts and went to Swarm book for
Speaker 1: Norrisks in their contacted Stephen Skinner except he was doing
Speaker 1: the work on the first book of sum Sycomatic at
Speaker 1: the time and said, Stephen, can you send me all
Speaker 1: this stuff on the winds? And he sent that over
Speaker 1: and found the conjuration in there. I did it as
Speaker 1: part of a conjuration of one of the planet for intelligences,
Speaker 1: and it was there like that, you know. I was like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: that worked really well. I had a lot of questions
Speaker 1: based on what I was doing in my practice time,
Speaker 1: and I asked about the winds and the intelligence. It
Speaker 1: was Joffield, the Jupiterian intelligence. He was like, yeah, it's great,
Speaker 1: used this, but just add this one line in here.
Speaker 1: So I did a line in. I then started contacting
Speaker 1: magicians I knew who do conjuration work, saying he did
Speaker 1: in conjuration in the next few months and if they
Speaker 1: were going fancy in this winds conduration for me and
Speaker 1: trying it and lots of people. So a couple of
Speaker 1: dozen people then did the practice and they added it
Speaker 1: in and it was you know, people working with all
Speaker 1: different grimoires with like the Oscar sugar or environmentally of Solomon,
Speaker 1: lots of different ones with demons, angels, Olympic spirits, clanty intelligences.
Speaker 1: Every single person said the spirit was there by the
Speaker 1: end of first conjuration at the latest. And then I
Speaker 1: was getting I get this was after Club as Intelligent
Speaker 1: Entoirement had come out, So getting a lot of people
Speaker 1: messing me about that, and people saying, I'm going to
Speaker 1: do my first conjuration and I'm really nervous, and have
Speaker 1: you got any advice? Okay, well why didn't you put
Speaker 1: this wind conjuration in as well? And the people who
Speaker 1: had never done a conjuration before who added the wind
Speaker 1: conjuration and was successful and it was there by the
Speaker 1: end of first conjuration. Again, so I extended my data sets.
Speaker 1: I wasn't just experienced musicians, but people doing first conjurations,
Speaker 1: and so far every single person we're up at least
Speaker 1: thirty conjuration sell has had the spirit there by the
Speaker 1: end of first conduration. So that thing which was there
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the Grimwa tradition and then disappeared,
Speaker 1: I have restored, and I think it's like a key
Speaker 1: component to bring back in because the winds are kind
Speaker 1: of like the uber for the spirits. You're sending a
Speaker 1: new before it and it gets the really fast, so
Speaker 1: you don't spend hours having to repeat conjurations. So it's
Speaker 1: a bit of a game changer. So I've written all
Speaker 1: about that in Plava Spiritum. I kind of dropped the
Speaker 1: hint on it with the blog I did on it
Speaker 1: some months earlier about the return of the winds. That's
Speaker 1: been like a really big thing for me in recent times,
Speaker 1: has been like propagating up there, the use of the winds.
Speaker 1: I think I had a bit tangential for there, didn't.
Speaker 5: I Actually you hit on my question, Sorry about that,
Speaker 5: Nick David. So this is something that I noted in
Speaker 5: your interview with Haitian Press on the podcast, is your
Speaker 5: restoration of the elementals to sort of the Grimar tradition
Speaker 5: as you were saying it became lost. It's very interesting
Speaker 5: because in Rodriana we do have this idea of the
Speaker 5: wind horse and then also the four cardinal wind protectors
Speaker 5: who are invoked in every major pooja or every major
Speaker 5: fire offering. So I would say it's an essential part
Speaker 5: and it's probably a sort of parallel stream of thinking
Speaker 5: in my view.
Speaker 4: So you answered my question. Is what I'm saying.
Speaker 5: I was going to ask you about the elemental like
Speaker 5: restoration or rectification back into the tradition, but you kind
Speaker 5: of addressed it.
Speaker 4: So thank you so much, good pleasure.
Speaker 1: And I thought, I assumed there would be parallels, and
Speaker 1: so I did check in with other people on that. So,
Speaker 1: for example, I spoke to my wife's godfather in Pala
Speaker 1: Mayombe and he confirmed about the use of the winds
Speaker 1: being in the spirits in Palo and the directionality to it,
Speaker 1: like there is with the winds being the spirit in
Speaker 1: the appropriate direction and also with my tata in Combanda,
Speaker 1: and also that the winds are use in commander as well.
Speaker 1: So it's interesting that it's something that's spread around in
Speaker 1: different traditions, you know, around the world, and that use
Speaker 1: of the winds, saying it's a bit more of a
Speaker 1: universal association of winds and spirits, and you see it
Speaker 1: in things like the Greek magical propriory as well. And
Speaker 1: you know, I talk about some of the references I found,
Speaker 1: you know, in Clarb spirit and there's even a couple
Speaker 1: of references to the winds in the Qur'an. We're associated
Speaker 1: with the gin. So yeah, I think this was and
Speaker 1: there's a lot of Arabic stuff on the winds, you know.
Speaker 1: It's it's funny how it just sort of drops out,
Speaker 1: really the conservation of the winds after the Swarm Book
Speaker 1: of Nooris, so the later grim was you might get
Speaker 1: mentioned of the nastical winds, but there's no using the
Speaker 1: winds for conjuration. And by the time you get to
Speaker 1: the more demon focused period the grim Walls from like
Speaker 1: sixteen seventeenth centralwards and less angelic, you actually get it.
Speaker 1: Some of them saying oh, it's going to take you hours,
Speaker 1: You're going to have to repeat it five seven, nine times.
Speaker 1: That's not there in the early stuff like Sumasacramagic and
Speaker 1: form book. Just assume that they're going to turn up
Speaker 1: first time because you've sent the winds for them.
Speaker 6: When I heard you on the Glitch Bottle interview on
Speaker 6: the podcast, I'm like, wow, dude, it's like he's preaching
Speaker 6: from the Golden ass because there's a section in there.
Speaker 6: I had to bring it up deck.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but.
Speaker 6: There's a section in there where they have this myth
Speaker 6: of Psyche and arrows and basically she's taken away on
Speaker 6: the zephyrs, right, and so the zephyrs are doing all
Speaker 6: the work for the gods, and it's like, well, what
Speaker 6: happened to that? Where'd that go? That was second century
Speaker 6: Rome and then they sort of lost that in the
Speaker 6: magical tradition later on in the Grimore work. So it's
Speaker 6: kind of fun the intersection between the.
Speaker 4: Two of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like I said, it does seem to be
Speaker 1: I think something that it's been there all over the place,
Speaker 1: and somehow, as we've said many things, it got lost
Speaker 1: its way. You know, well people forgot about it, things
Speaker 1: got changed, things get left out. I mean, for me,
Speaker 1: like looking for this over the centuries of the Grimwaite edition.
Speaker 1: The way it's changed, It's not always been an evolution.
Speaker 1: Sometimes stuff that gets left out is better to keep in,
Speaker 1: and so if an essential component like that gets lost,
Speaker 1: I think it's really important that it gets restored, which
Speaker 1: is what I've did with Clava Spiritum and have been
Speaker 1: encouraging everyone in my I've been was distributing it so
Speaker 1: much beforehand and encouraging people before the book got up,
Speaker 1: because I really wanted other people to be doing it,
Speaker 1: you know, like saying the fact that so many people
Speaker 1: did it and got results it was like vindication for that.
Speaker 1: It's an effective practice and it should be there.
Speaker 4: It's only in revival.
Speaker 1: I could suggest the name.
Speaker 6: Because all of Us was the master of the winds
Speaker 6: in ancient Greece, and he's the one who handed the
Speaker 6: bag of winds though Odysseus where he zoomed across the Mediterranean.
Speaker 4: So there's that whole, all this sort of magical connection.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean they had the template for the
Speaker 1: winds in Athens, which has some of the winds on it.
Speaker 1: You alsously get a lot more. I've actually kind of
Speaker 1: started doing a book on the winds, but it's on
Speaker 1: the back burner because I'm writing two books at the
Speaker 1: moment that the ones I've been pushed to write, and
Speaker 1: then after those are done, I might get back to
Speaker 1: the book on the winds I started, because you go
Speaker 1: for this whole cycle, you know, because you go for
Speaker 1: antiquity where you've got four winds, and then it's becomes six,
Speaker 1: and becomes eight and even goes up to twenty four,
Speaker 1: you know, and get all the sub subquents, so you
Speaker 1: get like the winds of the south southeast and all these,
Speaker 1: but you know, initially is three, then it's quite quickly four,
Speaker 1: you know, as Mats dis mentioned like Eurus Borius. Notice
Speaker 1: zephyrs also e as well comes in very heavily. The
Speaker 1: goddess of the dawn is the mother of the winds.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that one of the grimwalkins the munich
Speaker 1: Hambook of Necromancy sort of fifteenth century. There's a spelling
Speaker 1: therefore a throne that transports the musician and the angels
Speaker 1: that do it. They're all nearly all of their names
Speaker 1: are wind names with al on the end, so you
Speaker 1: get like boreal and zephyrral, and there's clearly just they're
Speaker 1: just borrowing the winds and sticking out on the end
Speaker 1: and saying, oh, it's an angel, when really they're wind
Speaker 1: It's like that thing that happens a lot with the
Speaker 1: grim Walls, where existing spirits are just repurposed. And I
Speaker 1: mean we can get together with the gods as well.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like a different gateway or different access
Speaker 1: to gods of the ancient world. They might not have
Speaker 1: been worshiped, but then they become present in the form
Speaker 1: of a saint or you know, a spirit that's called up.
Speaker 1: I mean, my favorite one of those is because you know,
Speaker 1: Nebbis is my pay from God, and you get him
Speaker 1: turning up as Saint Christophers and Christopher the Sin of
Speaker 1: Cephalis and Christopher the dog Headed, which is literally a
Speaker 1: dog headed saint who's doing the job of psychopomp which
Speaker 1: as a newist, it's like, okay, the Egypians aren't worshiping
Speaker 1: him anymore. Find another way that these dudes can feed me.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 7: Yeah. And it's cuts also that if we're talking about
Speaker 7: angelic magic, that you have an Hebrew them a lap right,
Speaker 7: so the messenger you can please them a little bit.
Speaker 7: Like also the hardline figured like this air kind of
Speaker 7: figured that the one that brings the message, the one
Speaker 7: that brings the thing. So kind of if you want
Speaker 7: to bring the thing into existence, you already have the image,
Speaker 7: the fire, you have, maybe the feeling the water. If
Speaker 7: you don't bring the air like, it doesn't like you said,
Speaker 7: it doesn't come, there's no luber like. Maybe the guy comes,
Speaker 7: but it's coming like food is gonna take ages for that.
Speaker 1: So it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: I mean, even just just point playing how it's even
Speaker 2: associated with transportation. I mean, what's his face, he's got
Speaker 2: wings on his boots. Yeah, well go ahead, Robert.
Speaker 3: I'm just to say too, when when Zeus translates the
Speaker 3: messages to Apollo for the oracles, he whispers them in
Speaker 3: the sense of a whispering wind. So yeah, you see
Speaker 3: this movement of the airs from the Eastern you know,
Speaker 3: wind of the demons to the modern I mean, it's
Speaker 3: it's very yeah, prolific.
Speaker 2: Not to bring it back too far, but David, if
Speaker 2: you don't mind, I did want to kind of ask you.
Speaker 2: I do it for most guests that come on. I guess, like,
Speaker 2: at what point did you make the decision that brought
Speaker 2: you to be the person we know now, like, how
Speaker 2: did you ever even get into this? How did you
Speaker 2: get inspired or what it said? You have to even
Speaker 2: start getting into the occult or whatever you call it.
Speaker 4: Magic.
Speaker 1: Oh well, I was interested in stuff when I was younger.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to claim that it was like a
Speaker 1: baby thing, you know, like I didn't start with I mean,
Speaker 1: when I was young, I was very interested in mythology.
Speaker 1: And when I was like six seven eight, I was
Speaker 1: reading mythology books in the library like you do, or
Speaker 1: like it did back in those days because there was
Speaker 1: much less available. So I read about Egyptian and Greek
Speaker 1: and rsset mythology and some things like that. I was
Speaker 1: a very prolific reader as a kid. They sort of
Speaker 1: like read a book a day on our bridge every day.
Speaker 1: And when I was ten, I went my way through
Speaker 1: carl UM's collective works, which kind of had a big
Speaker 1: influence on making me think about the supper RUMs and
Speaker 1: what goes on in the mind and the psyche. And
Speaker 1: I also read the Dowad e Ying and that became
Speaker 1: my paper book of all time, like Daoism, and that's
Speaker 1: been a really big influence through my life. But as
Speaker 1: the defining moment really was when I was fourteen, because
Speaker 1: I had a bit of an incident at the school.
Speaker 1: I went to this boys grammar school and somebody tried
Speaker 1: to stab meet with a knife and I took the
Speaker 1: knife off them and it ended up in his leg,
Speaker 1: and the school wasn't very happy, and so they said
Speaker 1: just spoke to see like these counselors. And the counselor
Speaker 1: said to me, there's nothing wrong with you. You were
Speaker 1: just not really directing your energy very effectively. You need
Speaker 1: to think about, you know, what you're doing with your time.
Speaker 1: And that really got me thinking. And I walked out
Speaker 1: of there and bumped into a friend who said, hey,
Speaker 1: I was just like, given this maybe I thought you
Speaker 1: might be interested. And you handed me a catalog from
Speaker 1: a cant supplier that used to be around called dot
Speaker 1: Altique that was one of the big suppliers in England
Speaker 1: back in the seventies eighties when there wasn't very much around,
Speaker 1: and it was like the book catalog and I looked
Speaker 1: at it and you know, I thought, yeah, I'm going
Speaker 1: to get some of these books. And I think something
Speaker 1: was obviously guiding my hand there. So I made an
Speaker 1: order when I ordered six books and those six books
Speaker 1: were Crowley's Magic Techniques of High Magic by Stephen It's
Speaker 1: going to influence his king, and of Ivice found some
Speaker 1: gentle magic, the Key of Solomon, the grimarv Armadale, and
Speaker 1: the Saca Magic Babel in the Match. So I got
Speaker 1: those and I read them and I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: techniquely high magic was the one my fourteen year old
Speaker 1: brain could relate to the most. So I just started
Speaker 1: working through doing all the practices in there. You know,
Speaker 1: it's two hours every day doing Pentagon ritual, hexcom ritual,
Speaker 1: middle Pillar, rose cross, ugilization, meditation, et cetera. Took the
Speaker 1: OAF in there, dedicating my life to magic, which when
Speaker 1: I met Stephen like decades later and we became my
Speaker 1: best friends, I was like, yeah, thanks for that, Stephen.
Speaker 1: And so that was the moment. Really, So I suppose
Speaker 1: when somebody just handed me that catalog of just the
Speaker 1: right moment and I looked for them and I'm going
Speaker 1: to get these books, and then I just started the
Speaker 1: practices and it went from there.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Wow, what was uh? I mean you mentioned the hexagram
Speaker 2: and the Pentagram ritual. I guess, I mean this is
Speaker 2: just because of my experience when I started getting interested
Speaker 2: into ceremonial magic, you know, I started looking at Golden
Speaker 2: Dawn and Oto stuff, and that's how I came across
Speaker 2: those rituals. Was that because you were like interested in
Speaker 2: like the Golden Downer, the li Bex that were like,
Speaker 2: how did you even come across those those rituals to perform?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean technics of high magic has got them
Speaker 1: in so I just started doing them from the book.
Speaker 1: When I was eighteen, I was in the Magical Lodge.
Speaker 1: It's very old school that was derived from the Celebrati
Speaker 1: Tina and one of the first things to do was like,
Speaker 1: get me to perform the Pentagram ritual, So how do
Speaker 1: you do it? And I showed them the MT Master
Speaker 1: Temple five. Yeah, that's not bad. His some recordings of
Speaker 1: is Rae Regardo doing it. So you can improve how
Speaker 1: you buy about your Hebrew and stuff because it had
Speaker 1: been set up under ther Sason Regardis and they knew
Speaker 1: and so I then you know that from there. I
Speaker 1: love the Pentagram ritual. I've done loads of workshops on
Speaker 1: it with people. I've amended it based on it was
Speaker 1: changed a little bit in the way it was done
Speaker 1: in the group because Regarde had some thoughts on ways
Speaker 1: it could be improved, and so we took those on
Speaker 1: board and made some slight differences to the way it's done.
Speaker 1: And I've actually recently in the last couple of years
Speaker 1: changed it up a little bit again in that I
Speaker 1: now instead of being before me, Raphael, before me Michal,
Speaker 1: because you're facing east and east direction of fire, and
Speaker 1: then so on my right hand Raphael, so then you
Speaker 1: have the Michael Gabriel access front and back, and then
Speaker 1: Raphael oriole right and left. And I just like I
Speaker 1: prefer that because you know, for many years I've been
Speaker 1: working with the fire east south that Levi switched and
Speaker 1: modern magic just took on board wholesale, which kind of
Speaker 1: destroys the whole thing of elemental theory of like the
Speaker 1: associations of the you know, the hot, cold, wet, dry
Speaker 1: axis and the qualities of the elements being shared with
Speaker 1: the ones on either side, right, and so yeah, I
Speaker 1: just made some changes and work it in my slightly
Speaker 1: varied well I'm actually thinking of doing a blog post
Speaker 1: on that actually just throw it out there see if
Speaker 1: other people want to play with that, which I didn't
Speaker 1: really like as much because it's a good example of
Speaker 1: what you're seeing. Quite a lot of the older stuff
Speaker 1: what i'd call like a hollow ritual, like it's formed
Speaker 1: without force, that there isn't any visualization or anything given
Speaker 1: for the x Greme ritual. You have to let make
Speaker 1: it your own visualizations for it, whereas the Bengam ritual
Speaker 1: is the whole, complete, little system in itself. And I
Speaker 1: love the Pentagram ritual. You know, you're combining voice work
Speaker 1: with movement and body work and visualization. It's like it's
Speaker 1: a really good package for practicing and honing your skills
Speaker 1: as a daily practice. But some of the things, like
Speaker 1: the hex Creme riture just they're a bit hollow. They
Speaker 1: don't have all that in them.
Speaker 2: I can see that. One thing I wanted to ask,
Speaker 2: if I remember correctly, with the Hextagram ritual, is there
Speaker 2: even you know, debate on fire and air being switched around.
Speaker 2: I'm wondering, like, does that the way you're doing your
Speaker 2: Pentagram ritual? Does that match the Hextagram Like the same way?
Speaker 2: Do you understand what I'm saying? How I think facing
Speaker 2: to the east, sometimes people want to do the fire
Speaker 2: on one instead of the air I think the same thing.
Speaker 2: I've heard the beats over there.
Speaker 1: Well, they were wanting to do fire in the east.
Speaker 1: I would totally go along with that with because that's,
Speaker 1: you know, the similism I like to work with.
Speaker 2: The Other reason why is many years go ahead?
Speaker 1: Sorry, so I say, there's many many years since I've
Speaker 1: done the hexagram, I still use Okay, you know I
Speaker 1: like the Pentagram ritual. However, I if I do the
Speaker 1: Pentagon ritual, what I do now is adding before and
Speaker 1: you know the thing I created the license to remain
Speaker 1: because you know, I have my own spiritual court of
Speaker 1: spirits around me and I don't want to be insulting
Speaker 1: them by you know, if you do that from the
Speaker 1: Pengram victory, you basically push everything out of the area
Speaker 1: so it's completely neutralized in neutral space, So you know,
Speaker 1: giving the permission to the spirits around you or any
Speaker 1: house spirits or genius Loki through outdoors to remain while
Speaker 1: you do it, so that you're not consulting, you know,
Speaker 1: any of those spirits when you do the Pentagram ritual.
Speaker 2: The reason I even asked that is because I'm just
Speaker 2: taking I guess I could be wrong, but and not
Speaker 2: like for me when I used to let's say, if
Speaker 2: I wanted to do planetary work, I would start off
Speaker 2: with you vanishing with pentagram ritual first and then move
Speaker 2: into the hexagram ritol. I'm thinking maybe if you did
Speaker 2: that thing with the fire in the East, you just
Speaker 2: want to kind of uniform with those two were going together.
Speaker 2: It makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it does make sense. And that's what I
Speaker 1: used to do many years ago. Is right, like say
Speaker 1: it's pentagram and hexagram. I mean, my dissatisfaction with the
Speaker 1: hexagram was why I created the heptogram ritual that's in
Speaker 1: practical Planetary magic. Jumping back to one of the things
Speaker 1: that you said earlier wanted to you know, talk about
Speaker 1: those books, and that was the hexper ritual was the
Speaker 1: inspiration for me to make a heptogram because I thought, well,
Speaker 1: heptagram's seven for the planets, and let's bring in the
Speaker 1: Greek vowels because there's seven vowels, and that's something that
Speaker 1: where we can give put all of those things that
Speaker 1: are missing from the expritual into a planetary ritual that
Speaker 1: just has a bit more completion to it.
Speaker 7: But even do an opagram one within the eight directions, right,
Speaker 7: like the four cardinal and the other other four crossing
Speaker 7: that would be really nice as well.
Speaker 4: We do tell I'm just gonna say, yeah, very.
Speaker 1: There's like the eight that's sort of chaosphere of things.
Speaker 1: I mean, is what would you choose forget? Would you
Speaker 1: put planet Earth in his number right there? If you're
Speaker 1: going with seven classical planets, because it makes it kind
Speaker 1: of makes sense for Earth to be the ape one.
Speaker 1: And if you look into certainly in the Grim Walls,
Speaker 1: you have the seven directions attributed on the quarters and
Speaker 1: cross quarters, but northeast is the one that doesn't have one,
Speaker 1: and that's traditional place entering the circle. And I know
Speaker 1: from chatting with like Steven Skinner that in Chinese magic
Speaker 1: as well, they have the thing of like northeast is
Speaker 1: where the magician comes in for Chinese sorcery. And so
Speaker 1: that on those things that you can find in several systems,
Speaker 1: you've got the seven and then the sort of the empty,
Speaker 1: so there's an itbum for empty, but then you close
Speaker 1: it obviously, and then so that's why I'm saying, it
Speaker 1: kind of makes sense planet Earth to be there because
Speaker 1: you're sealing it off and then moving transforming the space.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of rased separate from the mundane, so
Speaker 1: an optagram would have a logical place as we say, yeah, it.
Speaker 5: Is interesting to sorry Nick, to note David that we
Speaker 5: do face our altars northeast so well in Varceriana, so
Speaker 5: and we do have ten directions, but one of those
Speaker 5: is the two poles moving up and down, which are
Speaker 5: also contained in the inner channels of course, but you
Speaker 5: could also say, in terms of gross planetary bodies that
Speaker 5: the So you have the seven and then you have
Speaker 5: the also the nine. So we have Rahu and Kattu,
Speaker 5: which although are shadow planets and they are assigned to
Speaker 5: the north and south note of the Moon, they actually
Speaker 5: are planets in and of themselves. And I posit that
Speaker 5: you can actually map Rahu to Uranus and Kattu to Neptune,
Speaker 5: you know, if you want to use a contemporary system.
Speaker 4: Just it's a speculative idea, but I think I can.
Speaker 1: Make a case for I've seen other people make in
Speaker 1: case of the same thing, So yeah, I think that definitely,
Speaker 1: you could absolutely make a case.
Speaker 2: As you say, chins like, damn, I thought that was
Speaker 2: my idea. It's happened to me before, and I.
Speaker 5: Never think it's my idea because I recognize that kabbala
Speaker 5: can you can just map everything to the tree, right,
Speaker 5: so people from first principles can sort of reconstitute how
Speaker 5: things should look. And I think that that was also
Speaker 5: my experience, just using my kind of like my system
Speaker 5: and my view of it in a Buddhist way and
Speaker 5: just mapping into the tree and being like, okay, let's
Speaker 5: look at the suffer yetra and like you know, and
Speaker 5: map it to the contric the Mahovija system.
Speaker 4: So that's that's how I came to that conclusion.
Speaker 5: I don't think it was definitely didn't solely originate with me,
Speaker 5: but I think I can make us a case for
Speaker 5: my own.
Speaker 2: Also, Zay, I have any questions before I ask some
Speaker 2: more here?
Speaker 1: Yeah, just a quick one. How do you? I mean?
Speaker 7: And now I've been working quite some years with spirits
Speaker 7: since one, David, But how do you understand them? Like
Speaker 7: if someone were to ask what are they? How would
Speaker 7: you explain it from you or point of view since
Speaker 7: you've been working with them? Because I know maybe some
Speaker 7: schools don't like they'll do things differently. It's one, but
Speaker 7: how do you personally understand them? I think that's interesting thing.
Speaker 1: It depends on the type of spirits, but if you
Speaker 1: go with like for example, celestials and infernals, then they are,
Speaker 1: you know, distinct entities that are not and generally have
Speaker 1: never been human, unlike the dead for example, or some
Speaker 1: spirits and other traditions where they're from the ancestors and
Speaker 1: people who have died. In some respects, they're quite unknowable
Speaker 1: because they are so different from us. But again, if
Speaker 1: we say angels and demons, by and large, they are
Speaker 1: mostly airy, sometimes fiery beings in the point of view
Speaker 1: of where their elements are. That's why I'm One of
Speaker 1: the reasons I really like the Olympic Spirits is because
Speaker 1: it specifically talks about that there are the Olympic Spirits
Speaker 1: about balance or for elements in them, that they contain
Speaker 1: air of fire and water, and that balance in them
Speaker 1: might be one of the reasons why they are so
Speaker 1: friendly and easy to work with. Why I always recommend
Speaker 1: the Olympic Spirits or the plant for intelligence is to
Speaker 1: people starting conjuration. They're the ones that you like to
Speaker 1: get be the politest and friendliest and easiest to work with,
Speaker 1: and you get really good results with them. As well.
Speaker 1: People want to jump in and be or dark and scared.
Speaker 1: Let's do this demonic stuff, but way better to get
Speaker 1: your house in order and do the other stuff with
Speaker 1: the spirits that have more balance to them, And then
Speaker 1: you'll also finalize you'll probably find that you don't need
Speaker 1: to work with the other ones. So if you can
Speaker 1: get everything you need from working with a couple of
Speaker 1: Olympic spirits, why go off and then start working with
Speaker 1: loads of other ones. I don't understand the logic of that,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't come to tons of different spiritual ease.
Speaker 1: I've got a few that I work with, but they
Speaker 1: do a thing I need. If I need something that,
Speaker 1: why would I then go off and start calling up
Speaker 1: of ones? And I don't need to create new bonds
Speaker 1: and obligations if I've already got ones that can do it.
Speaker 1: And you see that in some of the said something
Speaker 1: like Commander, you know, like Ureessua or Pompageira. You know,
Speaker 1: if they can't do the task, they'll just contact out
Speaker 1: to another one and then they'll tell you what you're
Speaker 1: going to have to offer, and you okay, so you're
Speaker 1: gonna have to use this Pontereau and do these offerings
Speaker 1: and possibly this offering and sing these songs, et cetera,
Speaker 1: and they'll just subcontract out. And there's that in the
Speaker 1: Grim Walls as well as an extent when you have
Speaker 1: some of the intermediate spirits like Skurling and the care environment,
Speaker 1: also the demon bishops. I've found from my own experience
Speaker 1: where they are things, Okay, you want this job done,
Speaker 1: this is this is the best person for the job.
Speaker 1: This is the one you need to work to call on.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's really a case of getting
Speaker 1: the right one for the job, but not overplaying it.
Speaker 1: Not they're not Pokemon cards. You don't need to collect
Speaker 1: the more, you don't need to do all. I've got
Speaker 1: our story shrining. It's now undred all seventy two. That's
Speaker 1: really not a good idea. If you start looking at
Speaker 1: the description one of them, it basically tells you that
Speaker 1: the main it's not really going to be helpful, but
Speaker 1: it's going to try and make sure you get killed.
Speaker 1: Why would you want to call that one up for example?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. It's it's perhaps that thing
Speaker 1: of keep it simple. My layers of simplicity, don't don't
Speaker 1: create unnecessary relationships. If you've got a small group of
Speaker 1: things that work really well for you, that's that's my
Speaker 1: that's the way I do it and suggest to other people.
Speaker 1: Nice thanks.
Speaker 2: Since you put out those Elemental the Planetary books, has
Speaker 2: your own practice and like what you even like I
Speaker 2: guess study and look at changed till now.
Speaker 1: It's changed a huge amount because those things that Domini
Speaker 1: is very much working, you know, running groups, and they
Speaker 1: were sort of so a lot of stuff that's focused
Speaker 1: on group magic. For the last fifteen years, most of
Speaker 1: the work I've done has been you know, the Grimmaw
Speaker 1: stuff has been solitary. And there's been times where I've
Speaker 1: worked for other people because I've been doing the Grimos
Speaker 1: stuff for or forty four years. But you know, in
Speaker 1: recent years it's been mainly me doing solo stuff and
Speaker 1: occasionally with other people. So it's changed. The point of
Speaker 1: view of my magic is really focused on more solitary
Speaker 1: practice and as a result, you know, having to have
Speaker 1: everything sorted for yourself is it's such a different dynamic
Speaker 1: to when you're working with other people. I like group stuff,
Speaker 1: but it's just not been practical. Excuse me of say,
Speaker 1: being in the right location or having the right people
Speaker 1: available to do things with at the times you want
Speaker 1: to do stuff. So yeah, my practices have changed a
Speaker 1: huge amount. And you know I did do the conjuration
Speaker 1: in the past with groups I ran as well at times,
Speaker 1: like for example, back in the nineties and noughties, you
Speaker 1: know Alexandri and covens that Iran I would focus on.
Speaker 1: I mean, the thing with Wicker is that it's you know,
Speaker 1: the Book of Shadows is like a skeleton. You know,
Speaker 1: You've got a flesh and put the muscles and the
Speaker 1: sinews and the flesh on it. And so any group
Speaker 1: that I was high priest of with the blessing of
Speaker 1: the High process obviously, but all the covens that i've
Speaker 1: co co run has been with wives, so that's not
Speaker 1: been a problem that there would be a lot of
Speaker 1: ritual magic training thrown in there. So people, if they're
Speaker 1: in a couple with me, they're going to get a
Speaker 1: lot of ritual magic training. And I also wanted them
Speaker 1: to experience conjuration, so I would do conjuration of Olympic
Speaker 1: spirits with the coven so they could experience it for themselves,
Speaker 1: which was great because many could do it in an
Speaker 1: experimental way. So for example, rather than just having one squire,
Speaker 1: having three squires who could and would see if they
Speaker 1: all got the same answers to the questions that were
Speaker 1: asked to the Olympic Spirit, or if they got different answers,
Speaker 1: because that would you know, there are bemifications on that
Speaker 1: and by lize getting the same hearing the same answer
Speaker 1: from the spirit. So that was an interesting thing. But
Speaker 1: for them to sort of understand that wicker has its
Speaker 1: place and for some people it's the right thing, but
Speaker 1: there's other things as well, And so I wanted people
Speaker 1: to see some of the other options that they could do.
Speaker 1: And I mean, I know a lot of Wickens. It's
Speaker 1: not the only practice. They might have other things they
Speaker 1: do as well. I know some old school Wickans who
Speaker 1: are really into bring more stuff, for example. It's just
Speaker 1: not getting into that box or I do and I
Speaker 1: can't do anything else, you know. I once offended an
Speaker 1: old school with and somebody actually who was in Garden's
Speaker 1: original coven. We were having a conversation and who I've
Speaker 1: been doing worker for forty years, and I said, oh,
Speaker 1: what do you do? So you know we do this
Speaker 1: sabot see you in the thirteen psmas. What about daily practice? Well,
Speaker 1: I've never done a daily practice in my life. And
Speaker 1: I was like, what, so that's the only mantic you do?
Speaker 1: So and basically, you know, the high prices and piece.
Speaker 1: Because it was Gardner's original Covenant, they did all pretty
Speaker 1: much all the work anyway, so the people just learnt
Speaker 1: by watching and they didn't didn't get stuck, explained and
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, okay, And then I said Tom,
Speaker 1: I said, well, you know, this might sound rude, but
Speaker 1: I would rather work for someone who's done a year's
Speaker 1: daily practice than someone who's had forty years of occasional rituals,
Speaker 1: because they have put in the discipline, persistence and will
Speaker 1: have got more from that. And then I said the
Speaker 1: bit that I was young at the time, so it
Speaker 1: was a bit of a an asshole move. Then I
Speaker 1: said to him, you know, forty years of shit is
Speaker 1: still ship, which looking back, I now I think that
Speaker 1: was a bit that was just like the arrogance of youth,
Speaker 1: And that was not a really very nice thing to say,
Speaker 1: even if you can think of just an element of
Speaker 1: truth in it, it was still a pretty roofing say.
Speaker 1: But I was, you know, I was in the early
Speaker 1: twenties at the time, and at that age. You know,
Speaker 1: back in those days in the eighties, it was like
Speaker 1: it was a very different scene to the world now.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure, yeah.
Speaker 1: But to me that that is a huge thing that
Speaker 1: I see. There's a big absence of the whole thing
Speaker 1: of particularly in the early years, the importance of daily practice.
Speaker 1: It makes such a solid foundation. You know, you've got
Speaker 1: to be doing your meditation and originalization, give breath work,
Speaker 1: et cetera, on a daily basis to strengthen those muscles
Speaker 1: to the imagination, the mental muscles, et cetera. For effective practice.
Speaker 1: If you can't visualize something, how are you going to
Speaker 1: have an effective intent to expell et cetera. So people
Speaker 1: just want to jump in and start, you know, in
Speaker 1: the deep end and drown they can. But for me,
Speaker 1: the daily practice thing is absolutely essential.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you that what would be well,
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you back in the days
Speaker 2: when you put out the Pentagram, the Elemental, Daily, Mental,
Speaker 2: and the Planetary books, what was your daily practice like
Speaker 2: back then? The reason I asked it was probably very
Speaker 2: close to what mine was. That's why it is.
Speaker 1: Back then I was, well, I haven't done it for
Speaker 1: many years since I was doing the heptogram as a
Speaker 1: daily and you know, switching up the heptogram, you know,
Speaker 1: starting the prop according to the planet of the day.
Speaker 1: I was doing a lot, quite a lot of devotional
Speaker 1: work at the time, and I go through I've gone
Speaker 1: through phases in my life where if I'm not doing
Speaker 1: a lot of active stuff, then I'll just be doing,
Speaker 1: like you know, on a daily basis, I have to
Speaker 1: do something just be simple meditation, visualization, and possibly and
Speaker 1: then I might I want to do a devotion to
Speaker 1: a particular deity for a month or a few months
Speaker 1: or something. So I was doing a lot at the time.
Speaker 1: I was doing a lot of stuff with Hectian hermes,
Speaker 1: so there was like devotional stuff with them. And then
Speaker 1: I had like a daily energetic practice that I created
Speaker 1: that I was doing every day that you know, I
Speaker 1: did for decades. But I've actually started doing now after
Speaker 1: my spirits said it's a great practice that it's actually
Speaker 1: blocking some of your sensitivity. And it's true that I
Speaker 1: found that I've my psychic the psychism has like kind
Speaker 1: of spiked and got a lot better since I started
Speaker 1: the practice. So it's like great, great sort of energetic walls,
Speaker 1: as it were, but those walls were also keeping up
Speaker 1: stuff that I needed up to come in. You know,
Speaker 1: you can you can oversheeld.
Speaker 6: So we got a question from the audience. He says,
Speaker 6: how much has the occult ritual forms changed over the
Speaker 6: last twenty five to fifty years.
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's changed a lot. I mean back in
Speaker 1: the I mean back in the eighties, got the late
Speaker 1: eighties when chaos magic really hit. You know, I had
Speaker 1: a lot of friends who are on the chaos magic scene.
Speaker 1: I was kind of involved a bit. I used to
Speaker 1: write under a pseudonym for Chaos International back in the days,
Speaker 1: so there's some of my material in there. But with
Speaker 1: charismagic there was really nothing of like stripping the stuff
Speaker 1: back and just getting to like technique and practice. And
Speaker 1: I'm all in favor of focusing on technique and practice.
Speaker 1: I think it kind of lost its way a bit,
Speaker 1: myself personally bian But there are good people doing the stuff.
Speaker 1: And what I found interesting is a lot of people
Speaker 1: in chais magic have often been come back upon themselves
Speaker 1: being very focused into something like Norse magic and the Rooms,
Speaker 1: for example, or Tantra, or really heavily into breath work.
Speaker 1: It's like they end up not being that chaotic, and
Speaker 1: most of the chass magicians I know actually the most
Speaker 1: ordered and structured people. So charismagic is really good because
Speaker 1: it was a bit like the punk of magic, you know,
Speaker 1: like let's let's get away, get rid of all the
Speaker 1: detritus and what we don't need and go back and
Speaker 1: just focus on what actually works for us. And that's
Speaker 1: so it really pushed that key thing of you know,
Speaker 1: doing magic that worked. If it's not working what you're doing,
Speaker 1: you know, you need to either change it up, look
Speaker 1: at what's going wrong, or switch to something else that
Speaker 1: does work. So that was a big shift. The Internet
Speaker 1: changed things massively as well. You know, from the mid
Speaker 1: nineties on you need to get the you know, the
Speaker 1: the BBL boards and stuff where people were saying they
Speaker 1: able to start communicating and finding out because prior to that,
Speaker 1: you know, you go back to the eighties, there were
Speaker 1: it was really hard to find people. There was the
Speaker 1: occasional conference, but certainly in the UK conferences. I was
Speaker 1: part of the first fore Linix impostment in nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: six in Oxford, and that was the first thing of
Speaker 1: its kind where we had this symposing like Fellowites came
Speaker 1: from all over Europe and a couple even came from
Speaker 1: the States for this gathering. We had like, you know,
Speaker 1: really good speakers. That's it, you know. We had Michaelmgee,
Speaker 1: Lionel Snell, David Rietti who was in the calor Pace
Speaker 1: at the time who's passed since I can't remember who else,
Speaker 1: but it was really it was a great gathering, and
Speaker 1: suddenly there was a sense of community there, like we
Speaker 1: had like one hundred of Pelomites from all over the
Speaker 1: place getting together and people starting to make connections. The
Speaker 1: Internet enabled people to make those connections online immediately, rather
Speaker 1: than having to try and find out about events that
Speaker 1: you'd only find out about a few subscribed to certain
Speaker 1: magazines where the events are advertised, or went into a
Speaker 1: magical bookshop that you've tracked down and they happen to
Speaker 1: have an advert up. So that proliferation has meant that
Speaker 1: people have shared a lot more and so there's been
Speaker 1: a lot more exchange and change. There's also been, you know,
Speaker 1: since the early noughties, things growing and blooming, like the
Speaker 1: Grimwell tradition. There was very little Grimwell stuff. The odd
Speaker 1: book done prior to early two thousands. You know, then
Speaker 1: Joseph Peace and doing all his amazing stuff and his
Speaker 1: hysteric Archives of website. You know, Stephen my found in
Speaker 1: Golden Hoard and putting out the source Wip series, and
Speaker 1: then loads of other people started doing really good stuff,
Speaker 1: and the Grimweld Edition really blossomed and folk magic has
Speaker 1: become really big. So there's been loads of changes. Another
Speaker 1: one is that there's a lot more spirit based magic
Speaker 1: now than there was. And one thing that I'm really
Speaker 1: happy about is that back in the eighties, nineties, to
Speaker 1: a lesser except the noughties as well, even people were
Speaker 1: not really paying attention to the dead. There were people
Speaker 1: weren't doing a lot of ancestral stuff or working with
Speaker 1: Fitsteadit it's like this whole thing of the that's actually dooble,
Speaker 1: just do something at Swayne and remember the dend and
Speaker 1: the rest of the year, it's like we won't even
Speaker 1: think about them. But it's like they don't go away.
Speaker 1: They're there the whole time, you know. It's like it's
Speaker 1: I think the ATR particularly have been influentially making people
Speaker 1: pay a lot more attention to the influence of the
Speaker 1: dead and the ancestors, and that's become a lot more
Speaker 1: present in a lot of people's workings, which is something
Speaker 1: I'm very happy about because I mean that's something that
Speaker 1: got influenced by early people like Crowley. You know Crowley's
Speaker 1: coment about spiritualism being a Internetcrophilia, and he had a
Speaker 1: very negative adage that. And you know, Crowley is such
Speaker 1: a two age sword. Some of his materials has been
Speaker 1: great and transformational, and some of it was such a
Speaker 1: screw up, like his attitude of the AARs Garcia spirits
Speaker 1: being parts of the human psyche that he postulated and
Speaker 1: then wavered on. But so lots of people go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: the demons are just part of my mind. No, they're
Speaker 1: bloody not so. Yeah, there've been a huge amount of changes.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot more good practice available, but
Speaker 1: there's all they've been who's proliferation in bullshit, people who
Speaker 1: don't know what they talk about, basting on TikTok and
Speaker 1: other basis. So it's a case of one of the
Speaker 1: things that the last fifty years has really brought in
Speaker 1: is people really need to have their discernment filters on
Speaker 1: when they're engaging, especially online, getting run over.
Speaker 3: I was going to ask, coming from the elemental base
Speaker 3: of mythology and bringing that forth in regard to your traditions,
Speaker 3: when you're doing your research, how far back into these
Speaker 3: traditions are you digging?
Speaker 1: Well, the Grimwall stuff, I'm going back as far as
Speaker 1: I can, so you know, the Grimwall's proper kind of
Speaker 1: start reading from about the twelve percent twelfth thirteenth century.
Speaker 1: But you've got four threads that really feed into the Grimis,
Speaker 1: which is from the Greek and as I'll go back
Speaker 1: to that Arabic, Jewish, and Latin Christian. Obviously, with those
Speaker 1: we can then take some of them further back. So
Speaker 1: the Greek stuff is influenced by Egypt and Suma for example.
Speaker 1: So you know, you can look at things, what you
Speaker 1: can say there is a continuity of idea and practice.
Speaker 1: It's not an unbroken line all the way back to
Speaker 1: eating consumer from the Grimwals, but there is a continuity
Speaker 1: of practice, the use of the magic circle, having spirits
Speaker 1: in the directions, having guardians, various things like this. Then
Speaker 1: we look at the Arabic. Obviously, one component of the
Speaker 1: Arabic is that they preserve a lot of the Greek
Speaker 1: matial that otherwise would have been lost. But also the
Speaker 1: Arabic you also feeding there from India and possibly China.
Speaker 1: I mean a good example of that it is the
Speaker 1: Mansions of the Moon, because you know the Mansions of
Speaker 1: the Moon people talk about in the Pickatricks and the
Speaker 1: greenwas and how it comes to the Arabs. But the
Speaker 1: Arabs got it from the Greeks who write about the
Speaker 1: Mansions of the Moon, and then the Greeks got it
Speaker 1: from India. So that's actually an Indian idea that is
Speaker 1: fed via Greece into the Arabic and then into the
Speaker 1: European Greenworld edition. So it's really traveled. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: look to try and track back as far as I
Speaker 1: can in history and then present what I've found, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's I think there's a lot more needs
Speaker 1: to be done on the Indian connection, start because obviously
Speaker 1: the fact that India did have that connection to Greece
Speaker 1: means there's probably more stuff that needs to be looked
Speaker 1: at with connections there that hasn't really been done yet.
Speaker 1: So yeah, as far as possible, smiled, so I suppose
Speaker 1: as I can.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, admirable. That's what it's all about. Is really
Speaker 3: digging in and finding the true essence and juice of
Speaker 3: what these things are about. That's what I really enjoy
Speaker 3: about it all.
Speaker 1: Too well.
Speaker 6: Even Promanities can be said to be part of the
Speaker 6: Greek sort of Grimore tradition because his on Nature, you
Speaker 6: know verse that started off you know, ontology and all
Speaker 6: the rest of these philosophical movements was based in the
Speaker 6: castle of the Queen of the Knight. So he's actually
Speaker 6: having some sort of a divine experience as he's describing
Speaker 6: things like formal logic for the first time in the
Speaker 6: least agent Greece. So there's a lot of that Grimore
Speaker 6: tradition that sort of carries through into philosophy through the Neoplatonics,
Speaker 6: and so a lot of that.
Speaker 4: You know, it doesn't get recognized as such.
Speaker 6: But if you look at the way that it's written,
Speaker 6: it's clearly talking about communicating with spirits and gods.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm sorry, sorry, David, my apologies.
Speaker 1: As the neoplatonic thing is, you know, some people aren't
Speaker 1: vaking on neoplatonism, but it's a really big influence because
Speaker 1: because you get sort of the Christian thing of neo
Speaker 1: platonic stuff, like with ptudodigonosis, the area Paga, who's the
Speaker 1: guy who writes success to hierarchies, which is the first
Speaker 1: sort of cataloging of the nine orders of angels, which
Speaker 1: then goes throughout the whole of Christianity. And you also
Speaker 1: get people in the Renaissance like Giordano Bruno who were
Speaker 1: sort of doing neoplatonic stuff and bringing in the whole
Speaker 1: idea then of the image magic astromagic as astra and
Speaker 1: the sense of its image and bringing in that side
Speaker 1: of things and going off onto stuff like memory palaces,
Speaker 1: and it goes all over the place. So absolutely that
Speaker 1: is a huge in relance and the semi cross fertilization.
Speaker 1: You know, no magical system unless it's on some island
Speaker 1: in the middle of the Pacific or something exists in operation.
Speaker 1: There's always been all this cross fertilization and syncretization that's
Speaker 1: gone on, and that going back to the earlier comments
Speaker 1: some worried about how things have changed. That's one of
Speaker 1: the things I think we've seen in recent years is
Speaker 1: there's a lot more prospertalization than syncretization between different groups,
Speaker 1: where people are recognizing the value and it's not about
Speaker 1: appropriation it's about recognizing, hey, this works really well. I Mean,
Speaker 1: somebody asked me, how do you decide whether you're appropriating
Speaker 1: or what if you include something for non practice, And
Speaker 1: my answer to that was, I will look if there
Speaker 1: are parallels to what I see that I like anywhere
Speaker 1: in my tradition, and if there are, then I can
Speaker 1: work from those routes. If there aren't, then I'm not
Speaker 1: going to appropriate it. But you know, it's the parallels thing.
Speaker 1: It's like with the wind says parallels. So often there
Speaker 1: are parallels because the way the human mind and spirit works,
Speaker 1: you know, we're all kind of flowing in the same
Speaker 1: general direction, so nothing is going to be unique.
Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting what you just guess. We're
Speaker 2: kind of just saying now in so many words. And
Speaker 2: there's even a topic of a show that I had
Speaker 2: thought of doing on my own, because like I have
Speaker 2: covered so many people recently, and some of them are
Speaker 2: even on Gnostic saints, you know, doing you know, shows
Speaker 2: on certain alchemists or ocultis in the past. I don't
Speaker 2: think the reason why I even want to do it,
Speaker 2: and you know, not be tiff tat, but like you know,
Speaker 2: in in in the conspiracy community and podcasting. Christian podcasters
Speaker 2: will be the first one they call people like me Satanists,
Speaker 2: And I think it's pretty funny if you were to
Speaker 2: actually realize how many people that I'm interested in actually
Speaker 2: shaped your idea of Christianity. It's fucking going you. They
Speaker 2: have zero clue obviously.
Speaker 7: And.
Speaker 3: Christianity is it's a huge influence during the Renaissance. So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: Also, David, sorry to follow up though to next point, David,
Speaker 5: do you think of that people? This has been a
Speaker 5: point of contention on the panel before. I take the
Speaker 5: pro sort of a of the sun pro Christianity in
Speaker 5: a way, the esoteric sort of layer camp. I'm pro that,
Speaker 5: But do you think we should respect the context of
Speaker 5: Christianity in terms of the grimwork tradition and how it arises,
Speaker 5: and that perhaps it's not super useful always to create
Speaker 5: dialectical polls against like certain you know, more outer I
Speaker 5: always say outer temple religion for outer temple people.
Speaker 4: So there's always got to be there has to be
Speaker 4: a catch all for like those.
Speaker 5: People, and maybe it's more useful to speak to them
Speaker 5: in their language rather than try and impose your you know,
Speaker 5: worldview or will on them.
Speaker 4: I don't know, just what do you think of that?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I recently wrote about grim wall I mean,
Speaker 1: grims are essentially in the Christian framework. You know, it's
Speaker 1: the Christian cosmology. There are fact that there are elements
Speaker 1: and elsewhere, but by large and the battery that is
Speaker 1: operated on is fifteen hundred years of Christianity, so it's
Speaker 1: a hugely powerful battery. But I say the Christians the
Speaker 1: grim is quite more heretical in the sense that it's
Speaker 1: not the Christianity of churches and priests and congregations. It's
Speaker 1: a Christianity of there's these spirits and I can deal
Speaker 1: with them directly. You know, it doesn't need to be
Speaker 1: done in the church, in fact, preferably outdoors because all
Speaker 1: the early grimmar stuff. It's all about doing it away
Speaker 1: from people where you're not going to get caught in
Speaker 1: trouble for doing these strange rituals which the church wouldn't
Speaker 1: prove of. So and some people struggle with the fact
Speaker 1: that there is such a Christian framework to the grimwals,
Speaker 1: and I have. I mean there's been Jack Strand Kent
Speaker 1: Geo Sophia is a good example of that. Looking at
Speaker 1: the Greek where it's with the goez and things. That
Speaker 1: is one of the big feeding factors in I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't agree that it's the only one. You know,
Speaker 1: Jake stress, is that really heavily. I think the Jewish
Speaker 1: influence is hugely significant, because you know, back in two
Speaker 1: thousand and five in Planatory of Life, I said I
Speaker 1: think there's a Macava influence into the grimwast example, which
Speaker 1: I was really happy to discover. There's actually stuff from
Speaker 1: the Macava text and Seemer taken magic a proving my
Speaker 1: point that I was correct. You know, there was, but
Speaker 1: there are components of the grim Walls which you can
Speaker 1: see there from earlier times. I mean, there's all the
Speaker 1: Canaanite names of God that you know, the produced now
Speaker 1: that's in the Bible. For example, I get used and
Speaker 1: one of the things I've added in to the way
Speaker 1: I do grimware stuff, and it's in you know, Carba
Speaker 1: Smith and I was having the shakina there so that
Speaker 1: you have the balance of divine feminine divine masculine, which
Speaker 1: completely transforms the circle, the magic circle that you do
Speaker 1: con duration in because it brings the whole thing of
Speaker 1: the divine wisdom and there's a grace, sort of fluidity
Speaker 1: and beauty to the practice with it, and apart from
Speaker 1: anything else, we all have a pregnant shaquen in us
Speaker 1: as the spark of our soul. Means that if you're
Speaker 1: working with the shakin you're actually activating the divine fragment
Speaker 1: of yourself, so you have the authority to deal with
Speaker 1: the spirits. So that's not classically a part of the tradition,
Speaker 1: but to me, it's something that entirely makes sense, and
Speaker 1: it's something that I got pushed by my spirits to
Speaker 1: look at, and I looked and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: references in the grim walls that kind of hint at
Speaker 1: her presence without it ever being said to me, that
Speaker 1: was enough of a reason to bring the shakina into
Speaker 1: the conjuration sequence. And I've found, you know, it works
Speaker 1: like a dream, and the spirits are really happy about
Speaker 1: it as well that I work with that, you know,
Speaker 1: the chikin has been made a part of the sequence.
Speaker 5: I absolutely agree with you, David, obviously, because in Vadariana
Speaker 5: and in Tatra more generally, of course, you have the
Speaker 5: Shiva and the shakti or the breath and the compassion
Speaker 5: or the couple in Yabyam in divine Union, if you
Speaker 5: want to caut that. So I absolutely agree with that,
Speaker 5: And I also wanted to sort of follow up on
Speaker 5: your idea of sing criticism in Central Asia, like through
Speaker 5: the Mughal the Mughalized Indians. There's a lot of interesting
Speaker 5: scholarship about how they were actually taking contric ideas, specifically
Speaker 5: from Kashmir, and then sort of encoding them into this
Speaker 5: Moughalized Persianified Arabic that they repackage and then sold to
Speaker 5: or gave to the sort of Arab bankers who were
Speaker 5: the supporters of their court. So I think that that
Speaker 5: scholarship is just beginning now, but I think it does
Speaker 5: answer at least respond to some of the things that
Speaker 5: you were thinking about how a lot of Indian ideas
Speaker 5: were not necessarily laundered but sort of traded along into
Speaker 5: the greater Arabic Gramar tradition.
Speaker 6: Well, I was going to ask a quick question about
Speaker 6: or a reading do you use or viewing or a
Speaker 6: reading within your practices, because what I've found is like
Speaker 6: if you go back to the ancient text, they could
Speaker 6: be describing that, especially with things like the Chicaga glory,
Speaker 6: like they're looking at some sort of an envelope of
Speaker 6: energy around these people that we see translated in artwork
Speaker 6: as the you know, the halo or these other things.
Speaker 6: But the act of viewing could be a form of
Speaker 6: like gnostic site. Right, You're you're looking at the world
Speaker 6: with different eyes. So we see that a lot in
Speaker 6: all of the ancient texts as well. Did you have
Speaker 6: any experience with that.
Speaker 1: I do times see people's auras, and it's always very
Speaker 1: interesting to see where the dominances are like color wise
Speaker 1: and yes, And what I have on a similar vein
Speaker 1: to that is remote viewing with permission people doing ritual
Speaker 1: and being able to then see the auras of the
Speaker 1: practitioners while they're doing it and seeing the circle and
Speaker 1: the things is a really interesting practice. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: actually a really rewarding thing to do because it gives
Speaker 1: another level of experiential certainty. Give a funny example of this.
Speaker 1: Many years back in nineteen eighty seven, I was leading
Speaker 1: a ritual in Oxford. It was a public ritual and
Speaker 1: the one sort of hillside in these woods just outside
Speaker 1: of Oxford, and we had about eighty people. There is
Speaker 1: a group that was doing stuff for animal rights and
Speaker 1: there was three sort of local hippies were sitting on
Speaker 1: the hill watching us, and we did the reason. Afterwards
Speaker 1: they came up and they were like, wow, thanks for
Speaker 1: the light show. And these guys were tripping off their
Speaker 1: brains on acid and said what these guys then described
Speaker 1: to us amazingly they were coherent of to describe, but
Speaker 1: they're like, when the surfa been drawn, they've seen this
Speaker 1: like white fire guy all around, and when the particular
Speaker 1: goddess and God have been called, the person called the
Speaker 1: god has said, seeing this cascade of energy into them,
Speaker 1: and they've seen a different color one for the guy
Speaker 1: doing the god. And they were describing all the aura
Speaker 1: stuff that was going on just because they were in
Speaker 1: that state tripping on the acids that they were actually
Speaker 1: seeing the energetic component of the ritual because they were
Speaker 1: described exactly all the things had happened, and these were
Speaker 1: people who had no understanding experience of magic.
Speaker 3: As a hyper sensitivityscore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I really push
Speaker 1: it with people. If anyone I trained that one of
Speaker 1: the first things you've got to work on is your visualization,
Speaker 1: because daily visualization practice even if you think I'm not,
Speaker 1: I'm a psychic. As a turnip, right, it helps open
Speaker 1: you up. It helps develop your power to visualize. But
Speaker 1: that also increases your psychic sensitivity and will make you
Speaker 1: more sensitive doing that as daily practice, particularly over the years.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think that thing of being able
Speaker 1: to see what's going on energetically is like a really
Speaker 1: useful thing to have there.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'll say even using other senses sometimes if you
Speaker 7: have them like more easily for you, for example, the
Speaker 7: smell or the taste or whatever, that's also very let's say,
Speaker 7: it enhances also be the whole situation, whole experience. And
Speaker 7: I completely agree with this idea of also, like you
Speaker 7: were saying earlier, like trying making other people try and
Speaker 7: test the thing that you're doing or maybe be there
Speaker 7: like in this case you mentioned it wasn't it was
Speaker 7: kind of my chance right that people were there.
Speaker 1: But if you can do it reliably, it also helps.
Speaker 7: I had I had my mom go up the tree
Speaker 7: as I was doing a practice that was doing in swamp,
Speaker 7: and it was funny because I mean, I never talked
Speaker 7: her about anything, but as she was describing each of
Speaker 7: the things in the spheres, she was like completely doing
Speaker 7: the crustal and I went, Okay, to me, that's a
Speaker 7: very good sign. You know, like a person never heard
Speaker 7: about it and they can see the thing more and
Speaker 7: get the associations. So that's very cool.
Speaker 1: I mean the psychic senses actually, you know in Club
Speaker 1: of Spirit and I wrote a chatter about the senses
Speaker 1: in conjuration and also the psychic aspects of them like
Speaker 1: Claire Auditory, Claire of Faction, et cetera. And you know
Speaker 1: how those can be subtle helped with picking up sids
Speaker 1: that the spirits have arrived, because the visual image of
Speaker 1: them in the crystal isn't always necessarily the first thing.
Speaker 1: And even taste. I mean I've had it on more
Speaker 1: than one occasion when it's been a Martiall spirit where
Speaker 1: I've got like a metallic tongue in my mouth, like
Speaker 1: a psychic taste that that spirit has turned up. It's like, okay,
Speaker 1: I know you're in the ball, so trying to show
Speaker 1: yourself please. So yeah, not to underestimate those psychic senses
Speaker 1: and the fact they will develop through doing magic. Even
Speaker 1: if you go in thinking I'm completely psychically a brick
Speaker 1: and a zero, you will not remain at that state.
Speaker 1: If you're doing your daily practice, you're doing thesization, meditations,
Speaker 1: actually doing rituals, they will those muscles will develop and
Speaker 1: your psychos will increase.
Speaker 3: And I was going to say, when you get into
Speaker 3: just the long standing tradition of following this back as
Speaker 3: far as we can into the ancient mysts of history,
Speaker 3: this is something that people have been participating with. So
Speaker 3: in essence, there's a genetic memory that kind of carries
Speaker 3: through the whole as as you know, the entirety of humanity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and things like fragrance is a great one, you know,
Speaker 1: because smell is the strongest sense and for mental associated
Speaker 1: with memory. And we going back to the you know,
Speaker 1: like to arcade Mandays with the use of fragrance, whether
Speaker 1: it's plain resonant stuff being thrown on the fire, what
Speaker 1: have you. That and spirits loves sweet president smells as well.
Speaker 1: So the importance of the other senses, people should not
Speaker 1: underestimate it. And like I said that those build into
Speaker 1: our heritage.
Speaker 7: It's almost like to help with the that they you
Speaker 7: already have, like the whatever, how you do a practice right,
Speaker 7: Maybe you have the kendles, maybe you have smaller stuff
Speaker 7: like the incense then with the specific smell might also
Speaker 7: help to connect with them.
Speaker 6: Umigation. It's all over the age of world. They're always fumigating,
Speaker 6: and that's that's a big part of it. But I
Speaker 6: think that it's this web of associations that we see
Speaker 6: as the Kabbala try and all the rest of these
Speaker 6: things that come out of the ritual magic, Like they
Speaker 6: start to understand things better by getting to know these
Speaker 6: spirits and seeing all of these vast myriad associations with
Speaker 6: them as as sort of like that starting point for
Speaker 6: an understanding of the world around them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the the doing of it and then getting into
Speaker 1: this the spirit ecology of the subtle stuff that's going on.
Speaker 1: That's a little part. Always the will say, well, how
Speaker 1: do you know any of this stuff? You're doing this reel?
Speaker 1: How do you know electricity is real? How do you
Speaker 1: know X rays are real? These things that you can't see,
Speaker 1: but you know you see their effects, You know they're there.
Speaker 1: You see one seventieth of the light spectrum? What about
Speaker 1: the other sixteen seventieths. It's the same principle. We're working
Speaker 1: with spirits and subtle energies. We know from experience that
Speaker 1: they're real. We have direct experience of them. So that
Speaker 1: is the difference, isn't it. It's like the experience, like
Speaker 1: experienceial stuff. You know it's real, you just only can
Speaker 1: get on to do. And once somebody has had an
Speaker 1: experience that confirms it for them, that's usually when they
Speaker 1: the practice tends to take on more solidity, I think
Speaker 1: for many people, and.
Speaker 3: The belief itself precipitates higher forms of experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's funny because I saw it on Twitter yesterday
Speaker 7: that now, I mean, we already have virtual vision, right,
Speaker 7: like we are seeing each other through a virtual thing.
Speaker 7: We are hearing each other through a virtual thing. And
Speaker 7: then yesterday I saw they were doing some virtual smelling.
Speaker 7: So they put like an ultrasound thing on of victoric
Speaker 7: bowl or whatever inside and then you can smell something
Speaker 7: that it's not there. So like again, I'm smelling the thing,
Speaker 7: but it's not there. How can I say it's real? Well,
Speaker 7: you're sensing it. So there's this para like kind of
Speaker 7: digital sense that don't have, so it doesn't necessarily have
Speaker 7: to be there or even like Wi Fi, all those
Speaker 7: things like we're saying, they happen, they exist, so there's
Speaker 7: and there's no point of saying no, they don't exist,
Speaker 7: because it's there.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but when you get into the old Tabernacle and
Speaker 3: the traveling tint and they would burn the incense, I
Speaker 3: mean the incense even in the oldest sext go back
Speaker 3: to you know, the children of Noah and Adam and
Speaker 3: Eve and the magi bringing the incense and so you
Speaker 3: and then you know, you get into modern theater now
Speaker 3: and you have technological advances where they're actually having theater
Speaker 3: where they're spraying smells in your face to heighten the
Speaker 3: level of the experience. So this is all ways that
Speaker 3: ritual magic traditionally has precipitated these means, and now it's
Speaker 3: being utilized by modern technology in different ways.
Speaker 1: So much goes on that it's magical practice being technique
Speaker 1: being used that people don't even realize. I mean, what
Speaker 1: always makes me laugh is sure these production schitules and
Speaker 1: logos for businesses and things. For sure, Mermaid is actually
Speaker 1: you know, meloicing the I like it.
Speaker 2: You brought that up. Yeah, It's always been a quite
Speaker 2: obvious one, you know, especially when you start get into badge,
Speaker 2: You're like, oh wow, these signals are everywhere.
Speaker 7: Everywhere or even you know, people say, oh, I don't
Speaker 7: believe in astrology, but then you go study marketing. They
Speaker 7: have twelve archetypes and you can map pretty clearly one
Speaker 7: of them to each of the uh like strategy times
Speaker 7: and then it's like, okay, guess what you want.
Speaker 1: I call them archetypes and that's cool, but it's there exist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, before I before I started asking some more
Speaker 2: stuff about your recent work, uh not to put you
Speaker 2: on the spot, Arrows, was there anything you wanted to ask?
Speaker 2: I know you haven't been been quiet, so I wasn't
Speaker 2: sure if you're just like nervous about it or whatever.
Speaker 8: I guess I'm just focused. I do have some questions,
Speaker 8: what does your daily practice look like now? Like how
Speaker 8: has your relationship to magic changed over the years, Like
Speaker 8: did you used to do certain practices and they evolved
Speaker 8: or you've realized you know, like we go through different
Speaker 8: phases maybe sometimes where it's like I'm working with this
Speaker 8: more and then you start working with something else more.
Speaker 8: Like I just wonder how that journey has been.
Speaker 7: For you.
Speaker 1: These days. My daily practice is really simple. It's just
Speaker 1: like meditational, energetic practice that I do, you know, I
Speaker 1: have a two year nine month old daughter, so most
Speaker 1: of my if she's in the house and away because
Speaker 1: she's with me, she's very deadly focused, so that takes
Speaker 1: a large chunk of my time. So then factoring in
Speaker 1: the time when she's a sleepoort nursery, I have to
Speaker 1: do my editing work and try and get writing done
Speaker 1: a bit of time for my wife. So I don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of time. Practice wise, if I need
Speaker 1: to do stuff, then I will meet time. For example,
Speaker 1: I quite often make solomonic pentacles for people, and so
Speaker 1: that is going to need to be certain timings. You know,
Speaker 1: it's going to have to be on the waxing moon.
Speaker 1: It's going to do an appropriate day and how so
Speaker 1: I've got to tell him that accordingly, and then likewise
Speaker 1: the consecration times. I'm not doing so much conservation since
Speaker 1: she was born because I don't have the time to
Speaker 1: do a seven day purification prep or working with a
Speaker 1: new spirit. So the stuff I've done has just been
Speaker 1: with spirits I have familiarity with having worked before, but
Speaker 1: I can get away with three days of purification or
Speaker 1: with spirits I have packed with wore I don't need
Speaker 1: to do any and I can just ask them because
Speaker 1: I've been pacted with them for a very long time.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of where my practice is at. I mean,
Speaker 1: in the past when I started there turs a day
Speaker 1: every day for the first seven years, and then it
Speaker 1: became just trying different things out like I did. For example,
Speaker 1: I was working through Crowding's Magic, so I did leave
Speaker 1: a rashevelle helos for three months as a daily practice
Speaker 1: where you do the ha durations of the sun at
Speaker 1: the four quarters of the day, and actually doing the
Speaker 1: librastarty from that as a moment practice has what really
Speaker 1: got me into doing devotional stuff, and over the year
Speaker 1: has been a lot of I mean to do three
Speaker 1: months Shiva or you know, three months for Goddess mart
Speaker 1: what have you. I did quite a lot of work
Speaker 1: with Indian particularly Karli and Shiva, and my first wife
Speaker 1: was half Indian and very into those sort of those derties,
Speaker 1: so I ended up doing a lot of things with her.
Speaker 1: And back then daily yoga was part of my practice,
Speaker 1: for example, like half half an hour or so a
Speaker 1: day of daily. Over these days, I do tai chi,
Speaker 1: so I kind of see that as daily practice as well,
Speaker 1: because that's energetic work, and you know, I love tai chi.
Speaker 1: You know, it's that sort of energy flow it gives you.
Speaker 1: It's really invigorating and helps. I think it's just with
Speaker 1: general health as well. But to me, there's a very
Speaker 1: spiritual component to this, being in yourself and in the
Speaker 1: moment and the flow of tai chi. So that's really
Speaker 1: where my practice has shifted, depending on circumstances a lot.
Speaker 1: So I kind of hope that answers the question. But
Speaker 1: in the past it was much more lots of lots
Speaker 1: of daily stuff, lots lots of lots because I had
Speaker 1: the time. You know, now that's sixty and with a
Speaker 1: young child, I don't have time. So I just do
Speaker 1: the simplest stuff that keeps it ticking over and then
Speaker 1: when I need to or do something accordingly.
Speaker 8: Do you ever find that some spirits are archetype are
Speaker 8: harder for you to access than others, Like maybe you're
Speaker 8: naturally you naturally connect to some easier than others.
Speaker 1: There are some that I've never really some that I've
Speaker 1: worked with far less than others, just I mean possibly
Speaker 1: because of the circumstances not having needed to. For example,
Speaker 1: I've never worked with Venusian spirits for myself, but I
Speaker 1: have done work with Venusian spirits for other people, for
Speaker 1: things like fertility for somebody wanting to have a child,
Speaker 1: for example. I've not really work that much with Marshall spirits,
Speaker 1: although I say that, but then I have a Marshall
Speaker 1: spirit pacted to me that you know, offered their services
Speaker 1: many years back, so I have one on tap, but
Speaker 1: I don't really work with them that much. There are
Speaker 1: some I think it has been by probably more by
Speaker 1: affinity like that. I've worked mainly with solar, Jubytarian, mercurial,
Speaker 1: and lunar spirits. Those are the four where and I
Speaker 1: suppose after that would then come satur and then Mars
Speaker 1: and Venus at the bottom. I mean, I'm a Leo
Speaker 1: and I have a very balanced charting the sense of
Speaker 1: equal equal elements, and it's very mercury have its strong
Speaker 1: mercury influence in my chart. So the some mercury thing
Speaker 1: isn't really a surprise. What kind of emily most.
Speaker 8: So that's why you're drawn to the psychopomps.
Speaker 1: Yes, it would make sense, but I do have a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot of strong influence in my heart, very much.
Speaker 5: David would you consider the issue This is a fall
Speaker 5: up to Error's question, would you consider the issue to
Speaker 5: have a mercurial sensibility or correspondence in your opinion? I
Speaker 5: know there's a vast category of them, and they appear
Speaker 5: at different places and all of that, But in general,
Speaker 5: maybe you could.
Speaker 1: Say, Oh, I think it's going to depend on the issue,
Speaker 1: because I mean, that's every issue. You know. It's like
Speaker 1: you can have, like a whole load of people have issue.
Speaker 1: Every man is different. It's like a class of issues
Speaker 1: share a lot of qualities. I think, certainly some of
Speaker 1: the issues are very mercurial. I don't know if i'd
Speaker 1: be able to say that they all were. Definitely some
Speaker 1: issues I think are very mercurial in the same way
Speaker 1: that you know some of the Papa Jura's are very venusian.
Speaker 8: I have another question, what has been some of your
Speaker 8: goals practicing magic? And maybe you've had multiple throughout the years.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a big one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, person.
Speaker 1: Actually, when I took my magic cloth at fourteen, I
Speaker 1: about I was going to dedicate my life to the
Speaker 1: pursuit of magic, and as time went by, I decided
Speaker 1: that I wanted to try and propagate as much as
Speaker 1: possible good practice to the best of my understanding and ability,
Speaker 1: which then resulted in me running groups and writing books
Speaker 1: and things. And I was very influenced by the idea
Speaker 1: of magic as the great work. But it's the work
Speaker 1: of making yourself. For me, it's the work of making
Speaker 1: yourself and through yourself, humanity great. I see has been
Speaker 1: some next evolutionary step. The next step has to be
Speaker 1: a mental spiritual evolution for humanity. Physical is too slow,
Speaker 1: and I mean so the proliferation of magic and encouraging
Speaker 1: people to practice magic is the necessary goal. It's like
Speaker 1: to evolve yourself and make yourself the best you can be,
Speaker 1: and also do everything you can to encourage those around
Speaker 1: you to emanate that to make as many other people
Speaker 1: the best they can be as well. It's like one
Speaker 1: hundred monkeys principle. You know, enough people need to rise
Speaker 1: to take everybody else with them. So for me, that's
Speaker 1: kind of the goal of magic, is to try and
Speaker 1: evolve the whole of humanity to a more positive state.
Speaker 1: And that's that's kind of been my ongoing thing really,
Speaker 1: and I try to do my part to that boat.
Speaker 1: As I say, putting it out what I think is
Speaker 1: useful to the best of my ability at the time,
Speaker 1: and updating it as I go if I've found new
Speaker 1: and better ways, because you know, the practice I do
Speaker 1: now is better than it was a year ago. We
Speaker 1: always have to be flexible, and you know, if something's good,
Speaker 1: that's wonderful, but if you can make it even better,
Speaker 1: that's even more wonderful. You know, we always have to
Speaker 1: be open to change and have that fluidity. And that's
Speaker 1: something I've noticed with magicians would be practicing for decades,
Speaker 1: is you might think they'd get really set in their ways,
Speaker 1: but the ones I know actually become more fluid and
Speaker 1: flexible in their ways as they get older because they
Speaker 1: understand this and they always want to do the things
Speaker 1: the best they can. So that's in my books with
Speaker 1: Claver Spiritum, there's actually some changes in there from Clavers
Speaker 1: and telity entiargm the previous book because the work that
Speaker 1: I did afterwards and what I got from the spirit
Speaker 1: sized working books like, well, that's really good, but you
Speaker 1: can do this and have to make it even better.
Speaker 1: So you know that the second book really builds on
Speaker 1: the first. It supersedes a couple of bits of it,
Speaker 1: but most of it is still still you know, totally
Speaker 1: the way I would do it. There's just a couple
Speaker 1: of changes, like I do it slightly. I do a
Speaker 1: different magic circle now to the one I used to use,
Speaker 1: for example. So yeah, magic some people, it's not a
Speaker 1: popular attitude. But me, magic is a service path. It's
Speaker 1: about trying to improve you know, a lot of humanity
Speaker 1: as a collective, which is why for me, another really
Speaker 1: good indicator of people's magical practice and development is the
Speaker 1: level of compassion that you see in their lives, because
Speaker 1: with that is absolutely essential demonstrator that people are really
Speaker 1: understanding and living magic, because the more you do it,
Speaker 1: the more compassion you have for everything, for life in
Speaker 1: general and also for spirits including the dead. You know,
Speaker 1: it's the understand I think of the interconnectedness of everything
Speaker 1: that comes and the desire for that to or be progressing.
Speaker 2: When I ask something to imagine.
Speaker 5: Yes, sorry, Niica David, that's really interesting that you say
Speaker 5: that about the sort of the increase of awareness of
Speaker 5: the karma connections that we have to place and spirit
Speaker 5: and also each other, especially if you consider, like in
Speaker 5: contemporary Cabala, the hessetic framework, like the preference to has said,
Speaker 5: like looking to infinite loving kindness obviously in Buddhism in general,
Speaker 5: not just Tantra, but we do have this idea of
Speaker 5: body cheetah framework. So it does seem like a I'm
Speaker 5: not a perennialist. I'm an actualist, but I'm going to
Speaker 5: use perennial It seems like a perennial idea that this
Speaker 5: by sort of using magic alongside these kinds of more
Speaker 5: we'll say, higher conscious ways of thinking or being in
Speaker 5: the world, you actually become more aware of the karmic
Speaker 5: implications of your your own life, yourself, your magical practice,
Speaker 5: as well as your relationship to sort of like the
Speaker 5: spirits of the land in place. Sorry, I know that
Speaker 5: was more of a rampant in question, but I just
Speaker 5: it's very profound that you say that, because it's something
Speaker 5: that like I think about as well, and so to
Speaker 5: hear someone else of your caliber say that, it just
Speaker 5: makes you feel edified in that. Okay, we're all kind
Speaker 5: of seeing the same conclusion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you become more sensitive to just the
Speaker 1: whole subtle weap of things around you and how you
Speaker 1: can impact that even to the extensive, Like you know,
Speaker 1: the words that you say, you know, the grid was
Speaker 1: a very big example of not swearing, because it's like
Speaker 1: not prevailing your breath, and that's you know, it can
Speaker 1: be hard. Let's say somebody cuts you up in the car,
Speaker 1: can we hear not to swear at them? It's a
Speaker 1: good example of just even the little things, we need
Speaker 1: to be aware of the impact of the little things
Speaker 1: that we do. So, yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 3: And on how subtle of a level can we interact
Speaker 3: and react in order to encourage the betterment, like minimum input,
Speaker 3: maximum output holistically, Yeah, I like that mid input maximum
Speaker 3: still with intent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, dude, if you don't mind, I mean, I know
Speaker 2: we've been going on for a while, but maybe if
Speaker 2: you don't mind spending, will just spend a few minutes
Speaker 2: at least. Uh, your last two books, what was the reasoning?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: Almost kind of like I guess what I was asking
Speaker 2: you earlier about the planetary and element elemental magic? What
Speaker 2: is it about? Like what made you put these books out?
Speaker 2: Like what do you think you have to offer on
Speaker 2: that that isn't out there now?
Speaker 1: Okay? Where after I'd written the Grim World Cyclopedia, Steven
Speaker 1: Skinner and I were asked to do at presentations for
Speaker 1: this Italian group, the self of Society. I've got quite
Speaker 1: a few lectures and things for them now said we're
Speaker 1: going to be doing this weekend and you know we
Speaker 1: want to do conjuration at it. We want to get
Speaker 1: everyone in groups to do conjuration. And I what can
Speaker 1: you guys help? So Stephen I talked and we said
Speaker 1: we think we should do the intelligences as a good starter.
Speaker 1: You know what days are going to go. It's going
Speaker 1: to be on a Sunday, great, and work with solo
Speaker 1: intelligence netkil Scene said, okay, I'll do the fear, you
Speaker 1: do the practice. So so so fine, and he went
Speaker 1: before me, and then I was doing so I start
Speaker 1: preparing stuff and then I read a review that Jason
Speaker 1: Miller wrote about my book Primal Encyclopedia, and he made
Speaker 1: a comment about my chapter or practice as I put
Speaker 1: in there, and said this is a voice that we
Speaker 1: don't hear often enough ranking the contract and they got
Speaker 1: me thinking I should write more practical stuff. And then
Speaker 1: I thought, I did this booklet fears back on the
Speaker 1: conjurations and the planet for intelligences from an old sort
Speaker 1: of text. But I just gave the intelligence and I've
Speaker 1: been saying to people for years and years, intelligences are
Speaker 1: a great place to start now for myself. But hang on,
Speaker 1: I'm putting the stuff together now to explain to people
Speaker 1: how to do it. And there's nowhere out there that
Speaker 1: tells you. It's just there's the conjuration without telling you
Speaker 1: what circle should do, is what tools, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1: I need to write a book that's like a complete manual,
Speaker 1: because virtually none of the grim Wars are complete manuals.
Speaker 1: They're like piecemeal. They're like bits that the person wanted
Speaker 1: to record. I need to record the spirit catalog, or
Speaker 1: I want to record these magic circles or these conjurations.
Speaker 1: They're not complete, then there's lots of stuff missing. You
Speaker 1: can never assume that a grim War, part of someone
Speaker 1: that's sum a sacred magic a which eight hundred page
Speaker 1: is huge, and it's his whole system were oven together,
Speaker 1: is a complete practice, you know, Like I see people saying, oh,
Speaker 1: the ARB tells the easiest because you don't need tools. No,
Speaker 1: just because it doesn't say the tools are there, it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you don't do it. It's taken as read
Speaker 1: that you would use no to use those tools, so know,
Speaker 1: to have a magic circle of al you know, it's
Speaker 1: not they're implied if that would be known to the
Speaker 1: person reading it. So I thought, well, people are coming
Speaker 1: to it, it's not going to be known. So I
Speaker 1: need to put together everything that you would need to
Speaker 1: know someone who's coming who's never worked a conduration, and
Speaker 1: everything in this book and clavers, intelity and tim that
Speaker 1: you need to know. So all about the timings that
Speaker 1: all the consecrations is what you need to have, How
Speaker 1: you consecrate it, when you consecrate it, what you need
Speaker 1: to do in the build up time, how you deal
Speaker 1: with the purification, adding in the things that are modern
Speaker 1: as well being relevant. So in those days, obviously there
Speaker 1: was no internet and stuff. So now as well as
Speaker 1: you're passing having I call the electronic fast, you know
Speaker 1: that you don't go online, you don't do gaming, you
Speaker 1: don't do TikTok or YouTube or anything during that time
Speaker 1: because you're keeping your mind focused on the conjuration, giving
Speaker 1: the whole actual sequence of the conjuration with description of
Speaker 1: what's going on, putting it all together in one manual
Speaker 1: for people. Because there's nothing really like that that I
Speaker 1: was aware of. So that was what inspired me to
Speaker 1: put cloths into our gentower room. And then as soon
Speaker 1: as I've finished and sent it off to Hadium, you know,
Speaker 1: to the publishers, hoor right, then I get because spirits
Speaker 1: don't keep office hours or plantry hours, they'll contact you
Speaker 1: whenever they want. That's good job. But now you need
Speaker 1: to do more. You know this book you wrote, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's going to be a trilogy. It's going to be
Speaker 1: three of them. Okay, right, you need to look at
Speaker 1: this and this. So then I got nudged about the
Speaker 1: winds and the shakina and started going down the rabbit
Speaker 1: holes those and doing the practices and so then that
Speaker 1: sort of turned into claver Spiritum and ways to enhance
Speaker 1: the practice. So it's like it builds on once in
Speaker 1: Clovis Inteurgentar. And by adding in the winds and shakina
Speaker 1: and adding in a few extra bits that didn't go in,
Speaker 1: I could have put a consecrations for example, boots, and
Speaker 1: mentioned found out that does talking some grims about wearing underwear,
Speaker 1: because I've always just started I robe with nothing under it,
Speaker 1: but no, if you you can actually have consecrated underwear
Speaker 1: and other stuff under there, particularly if you're outdoors in
Speaker 1: the cold. Nice to know, you know, anything thermal long
Speaker 1: John's consecrate them, you can wear them. So just it's
Speaker 1: that thing of just trying to build on all the
Speaker 1: experience I have over the decades of you know, forty
Speaker 1: four years of conjuration and all the little handy hints
Speaker 1: and things or any mistakes that I've made. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to put all that information in for people so that
Speaker 1: they've got my template that has worked for me, which
Speaker 1: they can use as much or as little of as
Speaker 1: they want, with me explaining why everything is done, how
Speaker 1: it's done, etc. That was what inspired me to do
Speaker 1: the Club's books, and there will be a third one
Speaker 1: in a couple of years, two or three years, but
Speaker 1: I've got other books after write first. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: was to put out a nuts and bolts manual of
Speaker 1: everything that you need to know for doing counturation. Focus
Speaker 1: in the first book entirely on the intelligence. Is the
Speaker 1: second one. I give the conjurations for the Olympic Spirits
Speaker 1: and the demon Bishops. I put the demon Bishops in
Speaker 1: because they've not been worked with much. They're really interesting
Speaker 1: and they're specifically attributed to the four elements, one demon
Speaker 1: to bishop, to each alban and so I wanted to
Speaker 1: bring more of that in as well, because of the
Speaker 1: lack of attention to the elements what tedition, which was
Speaker 1: something I feel needs to be a bit more bought.
Speaker 1: Because there's a huge amount of planetary stuff in the
Speaker 1: grim Was, but you don't see that much elemental because
Speaker 1: the elemental stuff is the foundations that even the planets
Speaker 1: are built on. I wanted to bring a bit more
Speaker 1: of the elemental aspect into in that second one in
Speaker 1: Clave Spiritum. So that's kind of what inspired me to
Speaker 1: do that, and adding in all sorts of really interesting stuff.
Speaker 1: You know, the things that I've developed aren't written in
Speaker 1: the grim Was, but I found work really well, like
Speaker 1: the amount of visualization I brought in for the consecrations
Speaker 1: and stuff. And interestingly, I did find the reference in
Speaker 1: Simicycramantic came one of the bits hasn't been published yet,
Speaker 1: which kind of hints at that they might have been
Speaker 1: using visualization. So maybe I'm not that's I'm not saying
Speaker 1: this is definite, but it's possible that again, so I'm
Speaker 1: bringing back something that was a part of it. That's
Speaker 1: just really not been written about. I don't know. But
Speaker 1: either way, if you've got effective tools that mesh well
Speaker 1: with what you've got, why not use them but enhance
Speaker 1: your practice? And so you know, for me, visualization is
Speaker 1: very much something that does add to that. So you know,
Speaker 1: I put it all in explained it where everything comes from,
Speaker 1: which grim was, the bits I've merged into a template,
Speaker 1: or which bits I have created based on my experience.
Speaker 1: Is also full of lots of thanks to other people
Speaker 1: whose practices have inspired or encouraged me, or I've taken
Speaker 1: bits from. I always credit people because that's all the
Speaker 1: things I love in the grimworld. Addition, is there so
Speaker 1: much positivity and people build on each other's work and
Speaker 1: acknowledge each other's work rather than you know, like the
Speaker 1: whole it's all about me. Think, No, we're all benefiting.
Speaker 1: Somebody else does good work, we all benefit from it,
Speaker 1: and that's how it should be. In magic, you know
Speaker 1: that we benefit from what other people do. We're not
Speaker 1: here to tear anyone down. We're not in competition with anybody.
Speaker 1: We're all just trying to you know, rise and evolve.
Speaker 2: I like how you had mentioned I guess like the
Speaker 2: orbital before you were like saying like, I guess people
Speaker 2: thought like I don't need anything for this.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: You know, I when I was doing a lot of
Speaker 2: ritual work, I would typically work with like Egyptian deities,
Speaker 2: and I would normally attribute them to like either planetary
Speaker 2: magic when working with them, or the cabalistic you know,
Speaker 2: the spheres and like on the tree. And when I
Speaker 2: came across the arbitel and start, I worked.
Speaker 1: With it for a bit.
Speaker 2: I just assumed that it was to be brought over
Speaker 2: to now instead of Hathorm invoking Hageth or whatever. I
Speaker 2: think that might be the right one for Venus. I
Speaker 2: just thought it was kind of switching over, but I
Speaker 2: thought I still needed all that other stuff friar. I
Speaker 2: never looked at it as like, oh, I just you know,
Speaker 2: I guess we're gonna sit here and do a mantra
Speaker 2: and that's it. Like I just thought it was it's
Speaker 2: kind of funny had you said that. I just never
Speaker 2: even looked at it being that basic.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people, young people coming in now
Speaker 1: the generation seemed then it's not written, it's not there.
Speaker 2: Yes, what uh? When you were mentioning stuff with the
Speaker 2: grim war work, before and you're saying like maybe stuff
Speaker 2: left out. Obviously, maybe certain practices wouldn't be in there
Speaker 2: because they didn't exist prior. There's a different type of
Speaker 2: maybe school of thought. But like if you had if
Speaker 2: somebody was doing grim war work, and let's say part
Speaker 2: of their daily practice was doing certain breath work and
Speaker 2: maybe chocraate work or meditation, would you say that's an
Speaker 2: okay thing to like bring into the ritual to work
Speaker 2: in or no, because it's not in there. Something as
Speaker 2: basic as that. I'm not just saying like adding actually
Speaker 2: extra words are totally different ritual, but like breath work,
Speaker 2: visualization and breathe, you know, meditation.
Speaker 1: I would I would say absolutely. I actually say that
Speaker 1: if someone particularly if there's more than one of you,
Speaker 1: if you've got somebody in the scribe, or if you're
Speaker 1: doing it solo, a brief little meditational visualization thing before
Speaker 1: engaging with the spirit is a very beneficial thing to
Speaker 1: have in there. And also, you know, before you do
Speaker 1: the conjuration, if energetic work, so you're just feeling in
Speaker 1: the most balanced you can be. Absolutely, you know, why
Speaker 1: wouldn't you.
Speaker 2: Nice anybody have any questions or comments.
Speaker 5: Or anything, I'll do one last one. Okay, I'm sorry guys,
Speaker 5: Thank you Nick, and thank you David. So I have
Speaker 5: so many, honestly, David written, but I'll have to wait
Speaker 5: until the next time. But I think I want to
Speaker 5: talk about something you just brought up, like the prevalence
Speaker 5: of Sola scripture, sort of that framework of looking at
Speaker 5: things very shallowly as the text is the text and
Speaker 5: it means what it means, and also what you have
Speaker 5: called I think anglocentric in past interviews. I sort of
Speaker 5: appraisal of the Wisdom text through that sort of more
Speaker 5: maybe Protestant or Anglican lens and saying, okay, it begins
Speaker 5: and ends here, but now it's become more expansive. In
Speaker 5: Buddhist studies, we call it Protestant presupposition, this idea that
Speaker 5: you can only read the Wisdom texts as they are,
Speaker 5: rather than acknowledge the inner outer secret or tikini language
Speaker 5: or the various other sort of commentaries and metaphysics that
Speaker 5: actually are deeply involved in it. Would you say that
Speaker 5: that is also how we should try and appraise or
Speaker 5: read Western wisdom sciences through this more broad lens of
Speaker 5: looking at deeper and secret meanings and I know this
Speaker 5: ties in with your ideas of blinds and how much
Speaker 5: certain authors put in or don't put in, or may
Speaker 5: mislead you into certain conclusions or understandings.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean if I hadn't been looking at the
Speaker 1: phrasing and how you can mean it with the Stikina stuff,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have hit me and I got here we
Speaker 1: are we talking about, you know, a circle of fire
Speaker 1: around the throne, which is classic Shakina imagery, or here
Speaker 1: we're talking about, you know, wisdom being feminine again. You
Speaker 1: have Shaquina. There's all these things. I'm going that's Shaquina,
Speaker 1: that's Chequina, that's you Keen. The first breath, that's just Shaquina,
Speaker 1: the first breath in Adam. And it's just like the same.
Speaker 1: The epithets and titles and all these things have a reason,
Speaker 1: you know, because they they're like simple layers. They open
Speaker 1: stuff up for us, and it's so important. They say,
Speaker 1: like we know, with these texts, not just read it
Speaker 1: at surface level. I mean, sure you'll get something out
Speaker 1: of it surface level, but when you start looking beyond that,
Speaker 1: then it's like that's where you're going to find the goal.
Speaker 1: So that's where you're going to like, you know, the
Speaker 1: wealth that's going to sort of give you those insights.
Speaker 1: So it's flashes and sparks.
Speaker 7: Of ah.
Speaker 1: That then help you move on your way. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I totally think that people do need to read them
Speaker 1: with that sort of level of perception too. Meditating on
Speaker 1: books on the places, I think it's a great way
Speaker 1: to do it. It's like, you know, to read like
Speaker 1: a paragraph in a book like that and then meditate
Speaker 1: and see what comes to you. Let you when really
Speaker 1: play with it and process it, you know, look just
Speaker 1: zoom through a chapter and think you're going to gain
Speaker 1: lots of insight. You know. It's when I was actually
Speaker 1: meditating that it suddenly hit me, hang on, it's like
Speaker 1: coming in my mind because I was doing like you know,
Speaker 1: plat void empty and seeing what came with it was empty,
Speaker 1: and then it was like that phrase popped in and
Speaker 1: that phase dropped in, and I'm seeing a pattern here,
Speaker 1: and then I would have picked them and looking them
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing that pattern because I'm
Speaker 1: being product to see that pattern or I'm inspiring myself
Speaker 1: or whatever it might be that we we have to Yeah,
Speaker 1: so much of back to that think, you know, only
Speaker 1: a seventieth light spectrum is visible to us, So much
Speaker 1: of the spectrum is invisible. But we can be aware
Speaker 1: of it, we can feel it, we can sense it,
Speaker 1: and we have to apply that. I think when we're
Speaker 1: when we're reading, Yeah, we're only getting the top of
Speaker 1: the spectrum when we just read it in that normal way.
Speaker 1: We have to digest it and sort and see what
Speaker 1: else we can get from it.
Speaker 3: And I think also when you get into that, it's
Speaker 3: those with guys to see in. Those are ears to hear.
Speaker 3: As you're going through this information through the course of
Speaker 3: your lifetime, you're learning more and more and gaining a
Speaker 3: deeper sense of what these realities are. And as you
Speaker 3: do that, your sense of reality becomes deeper and deeper
Speaker 3: and deeper than you know as you gain wisdom, which is.
Speaker 1: One of the arguments for going back and rereading books
Speaker 1: that made an impact on you, because you get so
Speaker 1: much more from them next time round. Again, Oh, I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that.
Speaker 2: Oh well, God, yes, thank you very much. Did anybody
Speaker 2: else have any questions before we start to wrap it up? David,
Speaker 2: was there anything that you would like to say or
Speaker 2: anything about your stuff before we close it up here.
Speaker 2: Maybe we didn't get to.
Speaker 1: Oh, I've just really been enjoying the conversation seeing where
Speaker 1: it flowed. It's been great. We don't I've already mentioned
Speaker 1: about this stuff I'm doing. I do an online conjuration
Speaker 1: course which is six consecutives Sundays I run twice a year.
Speaker 1: It's currently running at the moment, it's halfway through, so
Speaker 1: the next one will be in probably around May or
Speaker 1: May time, so if people are interested, that goes up
Speaker 1: on Hadian, goes through Haydian, and I always like advertise
Speaker 1: that's sort of each time has sort of grown a
Speaker 1: little bit from the sense of any new insights or things.
Speaker 1: Like the first run of it was about all the
Speaker 1: turf clubs Intelligent Tower, but now it has all the
Speaker 1: Tearful class as Spirit them as well. One of the
Speaker 1: two books I'm currently working on is another practical grim
Speaker 1: War book, so by the end of next year or
Speaker 1: probably that will probably get incorporated as well. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I I'm just really excited with the the
Speaker 1: research and stuff I'm doing the Monks. I'm also doing
Speaker 1: like a research grim War book that's going to push
Speaker 1: a few things back and reveal some more bits that
Speaker 1: weren't known before. So that's some fun rabbit holes of
Speaker 1: going down as well.
Speaker 2: Awesome. Uh, do you want to let everybody know where
Speaker 2: they can like find you online or get in contact
Speaker 2: with you or whatever.
Speaker 1: I mean. My my website is the very unoriginable David
Speaker 1: Rank dot com. So it's an easy way to contact
Speaker 1: me as a message through the website if people want to.
Speaker 1: I try and reply within a day or two to
Speaker 1: people with the message week I do get a lot
Speaker 1: of people contact me through that. From there, I'm happy
Speaker 1: to chat to people. Is It's been very fruitful for me,
Speaker 1: you know some of the I love getting questions that
Speaker 1: make me think about stuff, you know. Like one of
Speaker 1: the things that pushed me in one of the chaps
Speaker 1: I wrote in Clive Spirit and was about eighteen months ago,
Speaker 1: a guy messaged me and said, I'm in a wheelchair,
Speaker 1: I have my ald Serrubral Pulsey. I'm about to do
Speaker 1: my first poetic conjuration. I've got a couple of assistants.
Speaker 1: Can you any recommendations you have made for how to
Speaker 1: amend the ritual to for me? So I wrote them
Speaker 1: a long email of suggestions of things ways he might
Speaker 1: rate it and say, maybe the person could do this
Speaker 1: bit and you don't have to earn, but you should
Speaker 1: be doing as much of it as you can still.
Speaker 1: And that made me think I need to put a
Speaker 1: chapter in the book about conjuring with physical or sensory impairment,
Speaker 1: and that needs to be highlighted because it's something that
Speaker 1: gets talked about a little bit, but not nearly enough.
Speaker 1: You know, It's kind of becomes like an invisible thing
Speaker 1: that's unconscious by us because most of us don't have
Speaker 1: those issues ourselves. We don't think about being inclusive to
Speaker 1: people who do. And so that that email has resulted,
Speaker 1: like in the whole exchange between us and me writing
Speaker 1: a bit from the book, and I contacted cratively who
Speaker 1: you know who's done a lot of talks about work
Speaker 1: with physical disability, and asks him to read through it
Speaker 1: to make sure that I wasn't being at all offensive
Speaker 1: or inappropriate in the worst phrase, and things. I was
Speaker 1: getting things over in a good manner. And that's just
Speaker 1: one example. I have a lot of people write and
Speaker 1: you get that thing. It's always a two way thing.
Speaker 1: It's like with the classes, you know, I always come
Speaker 1: away with like new ideas and insights from the things
Speaker 1: that people say. You know, anyone who's teaching should always
Speaker 1: be being taught by the people they're teaching as well.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're doing it right, you learn from
Speaker 1: the process. And that's why I love giving workshops and
Speaker 1: lectures and stuff, because I get so much from it.
Speaker 1: Because everyone has a unique perspective. You never know what
Speaker 1: they're going to bring to it and what they're going
Speaker 1: to tell you. That's another reason why there's so many
Speaker 1: credits in my books is because somebody's asked me questions
Speaker 1: I've got. Oh, yeah, that's it needs to be addressed.
Speaker 1: When people don't talk about that. It's like somebody asked
Speaker 1: me on one of the courses and said, so what
Speaker 1: do you do if you want to deconsecrate a pentacle? Oh?
Speaker 1: That needs to go in there. I've not seen anyone
Speaker 1: writing about that. So you've made a pact with a
Speaker 1: spirit and then some years later you want to you
Speaker 1: want to end the pact? Is fulfilled this purpose? How
Speaker 1: do you deal with that? Damn, that's another really important thing.
Speaker 1: I need to Let's talk about that. Let's write about that.
Speaker 1: So you know, so many people often it can be
Speaker 1: the simplest questions by people who wouldn't have much experience.
Speaker 1: They're like, they almost feel awkward about asking the question.
Speaker 1: But those questions are often the ones that hit the
Speaker 1: hardest because they're the things that people don't address. It's
Speaker 1: the things that seem obvious that don't get talked about,
Speaker 1: and the things that are obvious and don't get talked
Speaker 1: about are often the most important things that need to
Speaker 1: be talked about because they're the things where you trip up.
Speaker 1: And that's a lot of that's been one of the
Speaker 1: big things in those Clavers books is about trying to
Speaker 1: address a lot, you know, things like that so that
Speaker 1: people don't trip up because it's already addressed in the
Speaker 1: way I've written about it.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: I'm easy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I guess uh, David, Yeah, we already. Let
Speaker 2: everybody know where they can pretty much fund you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's about it. Everybody else, I guess real quick if
Speaker 2: you don't mind erro So, let everybody know where they
Speaker 2: can find your stuff.
Speaker 8: You can find me on YouTube at Arrows Up and
Speaker 8: you can find me on Twitter at arrows to Ethos.
Speaker 8: This was great. Thanks for coming on, David.
Speaker 1: It's been my pleasure.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Eric. You asked some questions that
Speaker 2: I was going to ask, So thank you. I appreciated
Speaker 2: this for me to do awesome. Uh jit, my man,
Speaker 2: what is going on? So please boss mister ninety three,
Speaker 2: thank you so much. I appreciate it. Obviously.
Speaker 5: Of course, David like, thank you very very much, very much.
Speaker 5: I was honored, and it's a little humbled to beyond
Speaker 5: the panel with you. But I I, you know, I
Speaker 5: want to show you that I know a couple of things,
Speaker 5: even though I'm not a ceremonial magician. So it was
Speaker 5: an amazing conversation. And I and I want to learn
Speaker 5: how to deconsecrate a pentacle. Not that I've done that
Speaker 5: or made a spirit pact, but I still would like
Speaker 5: to know how to do it because I do know
Speaker 5: how to consecrate the greater keys. So and so I'll
Speaker 5: just say this, thank you. Check out brother Matt, check
Speaker 5: out his stuff. Obviously he's my coast and the Gray
Speaker 5: Lodge and I have an episode dropping on my show
Speaker 5: Threshold Saints with Gregory Peters, who just wrote the book
Speaker 5: New A on contra with our other co host on
Speaker 5: The Gray Lodge, Solar Exile, who I believe was in
Speaker 5: the chat a little earlier and so look forward to that.
Speaker 5: And of course love is cause of knowledge and with
Speaker 5: the daughter, let's fucking go. Thank you guys so much,
Speaker 5: appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you man, thank you. I'm really glad you good
Speaker 2: to make it for sure. And the head is Joe.
Speaker 4: You muted.
Speaker 6: How you doing, everybody? So you can find me doing
Speaker 6: a show called Alphony Mondays with Arrows on Monday, and
Speaker 6: you can find me also doing seven seven seven with
Speaker 6: Nick on Tuesdays. I forgot that one the first time.
Speaker 6: So we're gonna be going through the Kabbala of Alice
Speaker 6: Chapelli and also on theays, I've got your emails, so
Speaker 6: send them to Headless Giant Podcast at gmail dot com
Speaker 6: and I'll read your esoteric slash occult experiences on the air,
Speaker 6: which David, if you want to send me some mail,
Speaker 6: that would be amazing.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's exactly so.
Speaker 6: Also I've got the trialogues with Ethan Indigo and Ricardo tomorrow,
Speaker 6: so check those out.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you very much sir for making it.
Speaker 2: And Matt, Sir, does everybody know what they can find
Speaker 2: all your amazing stuff?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 7: Thanks a lot everyone, David especially obviously very nice to
Speaker 7: I've met you personally, and I mean, if you happen
Speaker 7: to go at the I don't know if they're going
Speaker 7: to do another one next year to so for society
Speaker 7: they're going to do another convention, but it would be
Speaker 7: really nice.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I had a lot of fun.
Speaker 7: You guys can find me again on all social medias
Speaker 7: with the handle at at more nineteen.
Speaker 1: Also my website Kabala dot com.
Speaker 3: That's k A A b A l a h dot com.
Speaker 2: So thanks a lot, thank you for coming on and
Speaker 2: it's been not at least Robbie.
Speaker 3: Mark, Hey, thanks for having me on. Nick, and I
Speaker 3: want to say David, it was a pleasure speaking to
Speaker 3: you today. Great conversation and it's always great to see
Speaker 3: to the old faces and some new faces. And if
Speaker 3: anybody wants to check out my stuff, from my artwork
Speaker 3: that I do, to my metamind cast and everything in between,
Speaker 3: you can go to my link tree which is link
Speaker 3: tree r M A r X and that'll pull up everything.
Speaker 3: And yeah, this is a great time.
Speaker 2: Thanks thank you Robbie for making it. And again, David,
Speaker 2: I can't thank you enough for coming on the show again.
Speaker 2: It was like really like surreal for me to actually
Speaker 2: be able to have a conversation for you again. Not
Speaker 2: to fanboy you too much, but it's just wild knowing
Speaker 2: that like there was stuff of yours that I incorporated
Speaker 2: into my ritual work and that helped me grow ritually,
Speaker 2: like the Skuys in front of me now and I
Speaker 2: get to talk to him, So it was really amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and thank you everybody else who
Speaker 2: came on the show and everybody in the chat. I
Speaker 2: really appreciate it, and that's we go live or appreciate
Speaker 2: everybody's questions, whatever they got to add, and that is
Speaker 2: the end of another Cult Rejects and until the next one,
Speaker 2: everybody be well later.
Speaker 1: Thank you,