WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:05.000 You see somethings going to happen? 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:13.000 What what's going to happen? I'll take one? 3 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:22.719 What help? 4 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:28.239 Welcome to the Occult Rejects this episode, I got a 5 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:30.519 very very special guest, probably more of a guest for 6 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:34.119 me than the listeners. Really, somebody's that was very influential 7 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:36.960 in me when I started my I guess my practice 8 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:40.600 and getting into a cultism. But before we introduced David, 9 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:43.880 we'll introduce the rest of the Rejects. Marx. How are you, sir? 10 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:44.520 What's going on? 11 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:50.079 Yeah, I'm doing well. Thanks, Yeah, I'm I've been into 12 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:53.079 the occult for years, started reading into it when I 13 00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:56.359 was you know, around probably fourteen or fifteen. But I 14 00:00:56.439 --> 00:01:00.359 do artwork for bands, festivals, different stuff. If you want 15 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:02.960 to check out any of my stuff, my podcast or work, 16 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:06.079 you could check out link tree at. 17 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:07.120 R M A r X. 18 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:09.000 And thanks for having me on, Nick. 19 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:11.159 Of course, thank you very much, Robbie, appreciate you making 20 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:13.319 the time and for maybe new listeners if they have 21 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:15.640 not heard of Robbie Marks before, please go check out 22 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:17.799 some of the oldest shows. It's story time with Robbie. 23 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:20.400 Lots of information and you know, I'm very happy to 24 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:25.120 have him on the show. You'res eros, We'll try one 25 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:29.400 more time. You good to go. No, it's still not working. Damn. 26 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:32.879 I am sorry. All right, Jin, sir, how are you? 27 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:34.920 I'm really nervous. 28 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:38.319 Thank you so much, Nick for inviting me on this 29 00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:42.879 incredible discussion with David, and I'm a huge fan and 30 00:01:43.159 --> 00:01:46.599 I am trying not to fan boy. Matt knows I 31 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:50.879 was nervous because I texted him before we recorded, as. 32 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:53.319 Well as you Nick, So thank you so much. David. 33 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:56.719 I've never been had a spirit based practice particularly, I 34 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:00.319 really started out as most younger millennial boys you in 35 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:03.799 more of a chaos magic sort of like framework, and 36 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:06.719 now I'm a Tondric Buddhist. So that's how I'm very 37 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:08.560 familiar with Mike McGee and. 38 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:11.479 The a on of. 39 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:14.879 Mott Workings and frederichad and stuff that we work on 40 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:17.039 in the Gray Lodge, as well as my show Threshold Saints. 41 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.280 So if people are interested in what I do, and 42 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:23.240 I also of course Matt Murra because he is my 43 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:25.319 brother in the Gray Lodge. But if you're interested in 44 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:28.360 check me out on Threshold Saints and IG and twitter 45 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:31.840 x at Threshold Saints or my personal account at Wukong 46 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:35.919 Reborn and also the our Gray Lodge website which obviously 47 00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:39.039 mattmur is our webmaster, so the True Gray Lodge dot 48 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:42.400 com t r ve gray Lodge dot com and we 49 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:48.400 do speculative Cabbala, speculative to calichakra, and speculative narcissism every 50 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:50.680 Friday night live recorded for YouTube. 51 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:52.599 So thank you guys so much, appreciate. 52 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:54.879 It, Thank you for making it, sir. Yeah, for real, 53 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:56.840 everybody go check out that spaces if you have that 54 00:02:57.159 --> 00:02:58.199 very very good stuff. 55 00:02:58.840 --> 00:02:58.960 Uh. 56 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:01.879 And next we'll Headless Giant. What is going on, sir? 57 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:04.000 How you doing? 58 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:04.240 Nick? 59 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:07.439 You can find me at the Headless Giant Podcast at 60 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:10.240 gmail dot com. If you have any sort of esoteric stories, 61 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:12.360 me and Nick will read them out to you on 62 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:17.599 Thursday along with our symbolic studies as well on Thursday, 63 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:20.319 so check that out. And also I've got a show 64 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:25.879 called Alchemy Mondays with Aros talking about alchemy doing alchemical experiments. 65 00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:29.439 And I've also got the Trialogus coming up tomorrow with 66 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:32.840 Ethan Indigo and Ricardo, so check those out. 67 00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:36.039 You can yeah find me on Instagram. 68 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:38.680 Twitter and YouTube. We did a great show on the 69 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:42.599 Delphic Oracles last night. Check that one out as well. 70 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:43.439 Thank you. 71 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:47.520 Yeah, that one was a lot of fun actually, And 72 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:49.039 Matt Moore, what is going on, sir? 73 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:51.159 Hey? 74 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:53.960 You happy to be here, thanks again for calling me. 75 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:57.599 Glad and very appreciate that I could meet to David 76 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:01.199 Irol and that was three fun the Soul Society event. 77 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:05.120 So Mett moura as Jin Motor saying we have spaces 78 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:08.080 yesterday spaces was pretty nice. We always then repost them 79 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:11.599 on YouTube on Wednesdays. And there's also my website that's 80 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:15.319 Kabala dot com k A A b a l ah 81 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:18.439 dot com. A lot of cool stuff coming up there 82 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:20.560 is also make sure to follow me on my socials. 83 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:24.000 The handles right here at Madmore nineteen. So pretty excited 84 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:25.240 for today. 85 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:27.279 All right, thank you very much, man, I appreciate you 86 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:30.079 coming on. And last, if we can get her to 87 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:32.040 work erros, let's see if it works. 88 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:33.519 Now, can you hear me? 89 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:35.639 Now? Cool? 90 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:40.079 Great, It's awesome to meet you, David, thanks for coming, 91 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:41.199 Thanks for inviting me. 92 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:41.519 Nick. 93 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.240 You can find me on YouTube at arrows Up and 94 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:47.920 you can find me on Twitter at rost et Thos. 95 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:54.759 I'm a functional and archetypal astrologer and I post a 96 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:56.600 lot about metaphysics as well. 97 00:04:57.959 --> 00:04:59.759 Definitely go check out her stuff. She has done some 98 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:01.879 great work on the indiads as well, And if you 99 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:03.480 haven't seen this stuff that she's done on the show, 100 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.959 please go back and check it out. For me, this 101 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:09.720 is a very special guest. His elemental and planetary books 102 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:12.279 for staples for me and a constant reference from what 103 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:15.519 I didn't memorize already in his books. For people who 104 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:17.360 have been listening to the show for a while for 105 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:20.360 the last few years, you probably have heard me mention 106 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:23.439 him plenty of times whenever I've referred to planetary or 107 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:26.959 elemental stuff. I've even like pulled up some of his 108 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:29.279 pages to show like the associations, to show where I 109 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:31.639 got it from. This is the man. So for me, 110 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:34.360 it's amazing to actually have this guy on the show. 111 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:36.360 I never would have thought, I guess maybe ten fifteen 112 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:38.600 years ago when I was getting into this, i'd actually 113 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:41.240 be talking to the man that wrote the book. So David, 114 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:43.000 thank you so much for coming on. This is like 115 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:45.439 mind blowing for me. Please, whatever I didn't mention that, 116 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:47.160 maybe you want to plug, please let everybody know what 117 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:47.680 your deal is. 118 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:54.240 Thank you very much. Well for quite some time. I 119 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:56.600 suppose my stuff's been very much focused on with Gridmars, 120 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:00.839 So he's just you mentioned the Grandma's Cyclopedia, which took 121 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:05.759 me three years of daily writing and research to put together. 122 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:10.040 And doing that and getting the panoramic perspective that it 123 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:15.720 gave kind of shaped what's come since, and I wanted 124 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:19.199 to more patful manual stuff up just Clovers and Telgentiaram 125 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:21.160 and the new one the follow on to that, which 126 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:24.759 has just come out of clave As Spiritum, which is 127 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:28.079 keeping true to the fidelity of the Greenmart tradition but 128 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:32.519 evolving it into the twenty first century and restoring bits 129 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:34.959 that I've got lost or leaving our bits that don't 130 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:37.759 necessarily need to be there, and trying to make it 131 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:40.600 a lot more accessible for people. And that's kind of 132 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:46.920 been where my focus has been in recent years. 133 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:50.000 Very nice, I guess, I mean, I know you kind 134 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:52.720 of like I'm just now kind of specified a little bit, 135 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:55.639 but I mean that I wanted to go on the 136 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:58.959 planetary and elemental magic. But maybe this is just a 137 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:01.040 question we kind of be for the newer ones and 138 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:05.199 those books. What was it that you're bringing to the 139 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:07.240 table that do you think actually makes it makes your 140 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:09.160 stuff different than what's out there. 141 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.279 Well, it was one thing it's not different from everyone, 142 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:20.519 but for some is that I write about the stuff 143 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:23.360 that I have practiced, and that I get other people 144 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:27.959 to test and practice as well. Because you know, when 145 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:31.639 I was younger and I saw some books going out 146 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:33.399 that I spoke to the authors of, and they hadn't 147 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:35.600 even done some of the practices they were writing about. 148 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:40.519 Quite horrified me. This is decades ago. Now, I would 149 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:44.000 stress I'm not making that claim towards any modern authors, 150 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:47.439 but at the time, I thought, if I write, I 151 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.639 want to make sure I'm writing about things that I've done, 152 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:55.720 I would hope. So I think that, Well, the feedback 153 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:57.560 I get from people is they like my stuff because 154 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:04.560 it's very accessible and down to earth. But I mean 155 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:08.680 it's well, I'm very academic in the point of view 156 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:13.480 of well not academia, but I heavily put note and 157 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:15.680 reference my stuff so people can see where the materials 158 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:19.680 coming from, they can track things back. But I like 159 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:22.319 to also put things in as simpler form as possible, 160 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:28.560 because I have this little philosophy that magic isn't complex, 161 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:32.039 it's layers for simplicity, the build upon each other. And 162 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:34.879 you know, when as soon as you start trying to 163 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:38.600 box stuff and tell people that things are complex, so 164 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:41.519 when you start putting barriers in front of people, and 165 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.080 so if you view it as layers of simplicity the 166 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:47.440 build on each other, it's a much more practical way 167 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:50.480 to approach. And that's kind of reflected in my writings 168 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.519 that it's that's you know, as you read through, it's 169 00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:55.080 like you can see, oh, this builds on this, this 170 00:08:55.159 --> 00:09:00.000 builds on this. So what I get told by Pep 171 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:03.759 is they like that they don't feel that I'm talking 172 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:05.840 down to them, but they feel like they was having 173 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:08.559 a conversation with me in the books because it's just 174 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:13.320 in a nice, simple style. You know, I'm not trying 175 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.919 to use lots of big words to impress, and anything 176 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:19.320 that I think might be clarifying, there'll usually be a 177 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:23.200 footnote or anywhere I'm referring to text as usually a footnote, 178 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:25.799 so that people, like I say, can see where the 179 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:29.000 thought process was followed themselves as decide if they agree 180 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:31.360 or disagree with the conclusions. You know, I don't claim 181 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:34.080 that my stuff is the only way or the best way. 182 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:36.799 It's like the way that has worked for me, and 183 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:39.720 if other people feedback to me set it works them 184 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.360 as well, then that's fantastic because the reason for me 185 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:46.720 putting the stuff out there is to offer people stuff 186 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:49.120 that I have found, you know, test it and works, 187 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:51.159 and that hopefully will work for them as well. A 188 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:54.159 really good example is, you know the stuff I've been 189 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:56.960 doing recently with the winds, which is in Clave Spiritum 190 00:09:57.559 --> 00:10:02.519 for spirit conduration. When I got prompted by my spirits 191 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:07.279 to look into the winds and then I'm usually went 192 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:09.440 started looking at texts and went to Swarm book for 193 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:13.480 Norrisks in their contacted Stephen Skinner except he was doing 194 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:16.639 the work on the first book of sum Sycomatic at 195 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:18.240 the time and said, Stephen, can you send me all 196 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:19.840 this stuff on the winds? And he sent that over 197 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:23.399 and found the conjuration in there. I did it as 198 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.360 part of a conjuration of one of the planet for intelligences, 199 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:31.080 and it was there like that, you know. I was like, well, okay, 200 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:35.039 that worked really well. I had a lot of questions 201 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:37.279 based on what I was doing in my practice time, 202 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:40.200 and I asked about the winds and the intelligence. It 203 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:44.240 was Joffield, the Jupiterian intelligence. He was like, yeah, it's great, 204 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:46.519 used this, but just add this one line in here. 205 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.200 So I did a line in. I then started contacting 206 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:54.879 magicians I knew who do conjuration work, saying he did 207 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.360 in conjuration in the next few months and if they 208 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:01.639 were going fancy in this winds conduration for me and 209 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:06.240 trying it and lots of people. So a couple of 210 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.399 dozen people then did the practice and they added it 211 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:14.080 in and it was you know, people working with all 212 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:18.080 different grimoires with like the Oscar sugar or environmentally of Solomon, 213 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:23.679 lots of different ones with demons, angels, Olympic spirits, clanty intelligences. 214 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:28.399 Every single person said the spirit was there by the 215 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:34.080 end of first conjuration at the latest. And then I 216 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:38.000 was getting I get this was after Club as Intelligent 217 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:40.759 Entoirement had come out, So getting a lot of people 218 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:43.080 messing me about that, and people saying, I'm going to 219 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:46.720 do my first conjuration and I'm really nervous, and have 220 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:50.600 you got any advice? Okay, well why didn't you put 221 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:53.120 this wind conjuration in as well? And the people who 222 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.600 had never done a conjuration before who added the wind 223 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:58.039 conjuration and was successful and it was there by the 224 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:02.200 end of first conjuration. Again, so I extended my data sets. 225 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:05.480 I wasn't just experienced musicians, but people doing first conjurations, 226 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:08.559 and so far every single person we're up at least 227 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:13.240 thirty conjuration sell has had the spirit there by the 228 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.159 end of first conduration. So that thing which was there 229 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:19.120 at the beginning of the Grimwa tradition and then disappeared, 230 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:22.919 I have restored, and I think it's like a key 231 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:26.360 component to bring back in because the winds are kind 232 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:30.639 of like the uber for the spirits. You're sending a 233 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:32.360 new before it and it gets the really fast, so 234 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:35.240 you don't spend hours having to repeat conjurations. So it's 235 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:37.360 a bit of a game changer. So I've written all 236 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.919 about that in Plava Spiritum. I kind of dropped the 237 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.039 hint on it with the blog I did on it 238 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:49.039 some months earlier about the return of the winds. That's 239 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:53.720 been like a really big thing for me in recent times, 240 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:57.559 has been like propagating up there, the use of the winds. 241 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:00.159 I think I had a bit tangential for there, didn't. 242 00:12:59.919 --> 00:13:03.559 I Actually you hit on my question, Sorry about that, 243 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.080 Nick David. So this is something that I noted in 244 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:10.480 your interview with Haitian Press on the podcast, is your 245 00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:13.960 restoration of the elementals to sort of the Grimar tradition 246 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:17.320 as you were saying it became lost. It's very interesting 247 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:20.000 because in Rodriana we do have this idea of the 248 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:24.360 wind horse and then also the four cardinal wind protectors 249 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.600 who are invoked in every major pooja or every major 250 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:31.240 fire offering. So I would say it's an essential part 251 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:35.200 and it's probably a sort of parallel stream of thinking 252 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:36.320 in my view. 253 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:38.360 So you answered my question. Is what I'm saying. 254 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:40.279 I was going to ask you about the elemental like 255 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:43.519 restoration or rectification back into the tradition, but you kind 256 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:44.120 of addressed it. 257 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:46.480 So thank you so much, good pleasure. 258 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.600 And I thought, I assumed there would be parallels, and 259 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:54.159 so I did check in with other people on that. So, 260 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:58.519 for example, I spoke to my wife's godfather in Pala 261 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.000 Mayombe and he confirmed about the use of the winds 262 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:04.320 being in the spirits in Palo and the directionality to it, 263 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:06.320 like there is with the winds being the spirit in 264 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:12.960 the appropriate direction and also with my tata in Combanda, 265 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.440 and also that the winds are use in commander as well. 266 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.360 So it's interesting that it's something that's spread around in 267 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:24.360 different traditions, you know, around the world, and that use 268 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:26.120 of the winds, saying it's a bit more of a 269 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:31.879 universal association of winds and spirits, and you see it 270 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:34.399 in things like the Greek magical propriory as well. And 271 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:37.759 you know, I talk about some of the references I found, 272 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:40.039 you know, in Clarb spirit and there's even a couple 273 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:43.320 of references to the winds in the Qur'an. We're associated 274 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.840 with the gin. So yeah, I think this was and 275 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:48.440 there's a lot of Arabic stuff on the winds, you know. 276 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:51.320 It's it's funny how it just sort of drops out, 277 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:54.559 really the conservation of the winds after the Swarm Book 278 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:59.399 of Nooris, so the later grim was you might get 279 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:01.639 mentioned of the nastical winds, but there's no using the 280 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:03.960 winds for conjuration. And by the time you get to 281 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:07.360 the more demon focused period the grim Walls from like 282 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:11.960 sixteen seventeenth centralwards and less angelic, you actually get it. 283 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:13.720 Some of them saying oh, it's going to take you hours, 284 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:16.200 You're going to have to repeat it five seven, nine times. 285 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:20.519 That's not there in the early stuff like Sumasacramagic and 286 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:22.879 form book. Just assume that they're going to turn up 287 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:27.279 first time because you've sent the winds for them. 288 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:31.000 When I heard you on the Glitch Bottle interview on 289 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:33.879 the podcast, I'm like, wow, dude, it's like he's preaching 290 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:36.960 from the Golden ass because there's a section in there. 291 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:38.360 I had to bring it up deck. 292 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:39.320 I'm sorry, but. 293 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.519 There's a section in there where they have this myth 294 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:46.559 of Psyche and arrows and basically she's taken away on 295 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:49.320 the zephyrs, right, and so the zephyrs are doing all 296 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:52.159 the work for the gods, and it's like, well, what 297 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.559 happened to that? Where'd that go? That was second century 298 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:56.720 Rome and then they sort of lost that in the 299 00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:59.440 magical tradition later on in the Grimore work. So it's 300 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:01.720 kind of fun the intersection between the. 301 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:02.000 Two of them. 302 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:06.080 Yeah, it's like I said, it does seem to be 303 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:09.679 I think something that it's been there all over the place, 304 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:13.320 and somehow, as we've said many things, it got lost 305 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:18.240 its way. You know, well people forgot about it, things 306 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:23.639 got changed, things get left out. I mean, for me, 307 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:27.080 like looking for this over the centuries of the Grimwaite edition. 308 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:32.360 The way it's changed, It's not always been an evolution. 309 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:36.320 Sometimes stuff that gets left out is better to keep in, 310 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:41.799 and so if an essential component like that gets lost, 311 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:45.799 I think it's really important that it gets restored, which 312 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:49.919 is what I've did with Clava Spiritum and have been 313 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:53.639 encouraging everyone in my I've been was distributing it so 314 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:56.200 much beforehand and encouraging people before the book got up, 315 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:58.480 because I really wanted other people to be doing it, 316 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:00.759 you know, like saying the fact that so many people 317 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:07.720 did it and got results it was like vindication for that. 318 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:10.200 It's an effective practice and it should be there. 319 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:15.720 It's only in revival. 320 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:17.880 I could suggest the name. 321 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:23.599 Because all of Us was the master of the winds 322 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:26.119 in ancient Greece, and he's the one who handed the 323 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.279 bag of winds though Odysseus where he zoomed across the Mediterranean. 324 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:32.799 So there's that whole, all this sort of magical connection. 325 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:38.640 Yeah, yeah, I mean they had the template for the 326 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:42.920 winds in Athens, which has some of the winds on it. 327 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:47.480 You alsously get a lot more. I've actually kind of 328 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:49.279 started doing a book on the winds, but it's on 329 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:53.880 the back burner because I'm writing two books at the 330 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:55.680 moment that the ones I've been pushed to write, and 331 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:58.599 then after those are done, I might get back to 332 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:01.039 the book on the winds I started, because you go 333 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.119 for this whole cycle, you know, because you go for 334 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.960 antiquity where you've got four winds, and then it's becomes six, 335 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:08.960 and becomes eight and even goes up to twenty four, 336 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:11.240 you know, and get all the sub subquents, so you 337 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:13.759 get like the winds of the south southeast and all these, 338 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.559 but you know, initially is three, then it's quite quickly four, 339 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:23.839 you know, as Mats dis mentioned like Eurus Borius. Notice 340 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:28.119 zephyrs also e as well comes in very heavily. The 341 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:31.039 goddess of the dawn is the mother of the winds. 342 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:35.680 And it's interesting that one of the grimwalkins the munich 343 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:40.440 Hambook of Necromancy sort of fifteenth century. There's a spelling 344 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:44.720 therefore a throne that transports the musician and the angels 345 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:47.279 that do it. They're all nearly all of their names 346 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.960 are wind names with al on the end, so you 347 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:54.680 get like boreal and zephyrral, and there's clearly just they're 348 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.039 just borrowing the winds and sticking out on the end 349 00:18:57.079 --> 00:18:59.880 and saying, oh, it's an angel, when really they're wind 350 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:01.759 It's like that thing that happens a lot with the 351 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:09.759 grim Walls, where existing spirits are just repurposed. And I 352 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.039 mean we can get together with the gods as well. 353 00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:14.160 You know, it's like a different gateway or different access 354 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:16.400 to gods of the ancient world. They might not have 355 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:19.200 been worshiped, but then they become present in the form 356 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:23.799 of a saint or you know, a spirit that's called up. 357 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:26.559 I mean, my favorite one of those is because you know, 358 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.160 Nebbis is my pay from God, and you get him 359 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.480 turning up as Saint Christophers and Christopher the Sin of 360 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.960 Cephalis and Christopher the dog Headed, which is literally a 361 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:37.960 dog headed saint who's doing the job of psychopomp which 362 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:41.079 as a newist, it's like, okay, the Egypians aren't worshiping 363 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:44.039 him anymore. Find another way that these dudes can feed me. 364 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:44.359 You know. 365 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:50.559 Yeah. And it's cuts also that if we're talking about 366 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:54.960 angelic magic, that you have an Hebrew them a lap right, 367 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.519 so the messenger you can please them a little bit. 368 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:01.240 Like also the hardline figured like this air kind of 369 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:03.160 figured that the one that brings the message, the one 370 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:05.200 that brings the thing. So kind of if you want 371 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.240 to bring the thing into existence, you already have the image, 372 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.200 the fire, you have, maybe the feeling the water. If 373 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:13.039 you don't bring the air like, it doesn't like you said, 374 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:15.200 it doesn't come, there's no luber like. Maybe the guy comes, 375 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.799 but it's coming like food is gonna take ages for that. 376 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:19.519 So it makes a lot of sense. 377 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:24.039 I mean, even just just point playing how it's even 378 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:27.799 associated with transportation. I mean, what's his face, he's got 379 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:35.160 wings on his boots. Yeah, well go ahead, Robert. 380 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:39.599 I'm just to say too, when when Zeus translates the 381 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:45.119 messages to Apollo for the oracles, he whispers them in 382 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.599 the sense of a whispering wind. So yeah, you see 383 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:53.559 this movement of the airs from the Eastern you know, 384 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:56.759 wind of the demons to the modern I mean, it's 385 00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:58.559 it's very yeah, prolific. 386 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:05.359 Not to bring it back too far, but David, if 387 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:07.920 you don't mind, I did want to kind of ask you. 388 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:10.960 I do it for most guests that come on. I guess, like, 389 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.759 at what point did you make the decision that brought 390 00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:15.480 you to be the person we know now, like, how 391 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:17.200 did you ever even get into this? How did you 392 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:19.240 get inspired or what it said? You have to even 393 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:21.359 start getting into the occult or whatever you call it. 394 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:21.720 Magic. 395 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:32.559 Oh well, I was interested in stuff when I was younger. 396 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:34.680 I'm not going to claim that it was like a 397 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:37.880 baby thing, you know, like I didn't start with I mean, 398 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:40.319 when I was young, I was very interested in mythology. 399 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:42.839 And when I was like six seven eight, I was 400 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:46.519 reading mythology books in the library like you do, or 401 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:49.480 like it did back in those days because there was 402 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:53.400 much less available. So I read about Egyptian and Greek 403 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:58.079 and rsset mythology and some things like that. I was 404 00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:03.000 a very prolific reader as a kid. They sort of 405 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.960 like read a book a day on our bridge every day. 406 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:11.839 And when I was ten, I went my way through 407 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.680 carl UM's collective works, which kind of had a big 408 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:20.640 influence on making me think about the supper RUMs and 409 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:23.640 what goes on in the mind and the psyche. And 410 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.200 I also read the Dowad e Ying and that became 411 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:30.240 my paper book of all time, like Daoism, and that's 412 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:34.480 been a really big influence through my life. But as 413 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:37.079 the defining moment really was when I was fourteen, because 414 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:42.799 I had a bit of an incident at the school. 415 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:47.599 I went to this boys grammar school and somebody tried 416 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:52.839 to stab meet with a knife and I took the 417 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:55.559 knife off them and it ended up in his leg, 418 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:59.960 and the school wasn't very happy, and so they said 419 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:05.279 just spoke to see like these counselors. And the counselor 420 00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:07.519 said to me, there's nothing wrong with you. You were 421 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.160 just not really directing your energy very effectively. You need 422 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:14.240 to think about, you know, what you're doing with your time. 423 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:17.480 And that really got me thinking. And I walked out 424 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:22.559 of there and bumped into a friend who said, hey, 425 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.559 I was just like, given this maybe I thought you 426 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:28.359 might be interested. And you handed me a catalog from 427 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:31.359 a cant supplier that used to be around called dot 428 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:36.279 Altique that was one of the big suppliers in England 429 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:40.279 back in the seventies eighties when there wasn't very much around, 430 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:46.279 and it was like the book catalog and I looked 431 00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:49.279 at it and you know, I thought, yeah, I'm going 432 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:52.000 to get some of these books. And I think something 433 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:54.759 was obviously guiding my hand there. So I made an 434 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:58.400 order when I ordered six books and those six books 435 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:06.359 were Crowley's Magic Techniques of High Magic by Stephen It's 436 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:09.960 going to influence his king, and of Ivice found some 437 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:13.319 gentle magic, the Key of Solomon, the grimarv Armadale, and 438 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.839 the Saca Magic Babel in the Match. So I got 439 00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:18.200 those and I read them and I was like, okay, 440 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.920 techniquely high magic was the one my fourteen year old 441 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:22.920 brain could relate to the most. So I just started 442 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:27.359 working through doing all the practices in there. You know, 443 00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.880 it's two hours every day doing Pentagon ritual, hexcom ritual, 444 00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:36.359 middle Pillar, rose cross, ugilization, meditation, et cetera. Took the 445 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:39.440 OAF in there, dedicating my life to magic, which when 446 00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:41.920 I met Stephen like decades later and we became my 447 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:43.920 best friends, I was like, yeah, thanks for that, Stephen. 448 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:49.799 And so that was the moment. Really, So I suppose 449 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.359 when somebody just handed me that catalog of just the 450 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:55.000 right moment and I looked for them and I'm going 451 00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:58.119 to get these books, and then I just started the 452 00:24:58.200 --> 00:24:59.599 practices and it went from there. 453 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:02.839 Yeah. 454 00:25:05.079 --> 00:25:08.359 Wow, what was uh? I mean you mentioned the hexagram 455 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:12.599 and the Pentagram ritual. I guess, I mean this is 456 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:16.160 just because of my experience when I started getting interested 457 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:19.759 into ceremonial magic, you know, I started looking at Golden 458 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:22.839 Dawn and Oto stuff, and that's how I came across 459 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:26.680 those rituals. Was that because you were like interested in 460 00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:28.720 like the Golden Downer, the li Bex that were like, 461 00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:32.039 how did you even come across those those rituals to perform? 462 00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:35.880 Well, I mean technics of high magic has got them 463 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:39.039 in so I just started doing them from the book. 464 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:44.160 When I was eighteen, I was in the Magical Lodge. 465 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:46.599 It's very old school that was derived from the Celebrati 466 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:50.279 Tina and one of the first things to do was like, 467 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:54.279 get me to perform the Pentagram ritual, So how do 468 00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:57.640 you do it? And I showed them the MT Master 469 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:01.119 Temple five. Yeah, that's not bad. His some recordings of 470 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:03.440 is Rae Regardo doing it. So you can improve how 471 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:06.240 you buy about your Hebrew and stuff because it had 472 00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:10.960 been set up under ther Sason Regardis and they knew 473 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:17.960 and so I then you know that from there. I 474 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:20.920 love the Pentagram ritual. I've done loads of workshops on 475 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:25.279 it with people. I've amended it based on it was 476 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:27.160 changed a little bit in the way it was done 477 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:30.240 in the group because Regarde had some thoughts on ways 478 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.640 it could be improved, and so we took those on 479 00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:37.480 board and made some slight differences to the way it's done. 480 00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:40.400 And I've actually recently in the last couple of years 481 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:44.000 changed it up a little bit again in that I 482 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:49.559 now instead of being before me, Raphael, before me Michal, 483 00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:53.000 because you're facing east and east direction of fire, and 484 00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:56.480 then so on my right hand Raphael, so then you 485 00:26:56.559 --> 00:27:00.279 have the Michael Gabriel access front and back, and then 486 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.640 Raphael oriole right and left. And I just like I 487 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:08.519 prefer that because you know, for many years I've been 488 00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:14.400 working with the fire east south that Levi switched and 489 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.119 modern magic just took on board wholesale, which kind of 490 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.279 destroys the whole thing of elemental theory of like the 491 00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:25.480 associations of the you know, the hot, cold, wet, dry 492 00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:27.960 axis and the qualities of the elements being shared with 493 00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:32.200 the ones on either side, right, and so yeah, I 494 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.079 just made some changes and work it in my slightly 495 00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:40.279 varied well I'm actually thinking of doing a blog post 496 00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:42.799 on that actually just throw it out there see if 497 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:46.640 other people want to play with that, which I didn't 498 00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:49.559 really like as much because it's a good example of 499 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:54.920 what you're seeing. Quite a lot of the older stuff 500 00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:57.920 what i'd call like a hollow ritual, like it's formed 501 00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:02.000 without force, that there isn't any visualization or anything given 502 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:04.559 for the x Greme ritual. You have to let make 503 00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:07.160 it your own visualizations for it, whereas the Bengam ritual 504 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.359 is the whole, complete, little system in itself. And I 505 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:14.799 love the Pentagram ritual. You know, you're combining voice work 506 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.559 with movement and body work and visualization. It's like it's 507 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:21.079 a really good package for practicing and honing your skills 508 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:24.720 as a daily practice. But some of the things, like 509 00:28:24.759 --> 00:28:27.480 the hex Creme riture just they're a bit hollow. They 510 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:28.480 don't have all that in them. 511 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:32.720 I can see that. One thing I wanted to ask, 512 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:35.720 if I remember correctly, with the Hextagram ritual, is there 513 00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:39.880 even you know, debate on fire and air being switched around. 514 00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.440 I'm wondering, like, does that the way you're doing your 515 00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.440 Pentagram ritual? Does that match the Hextagram Like the same way? 516 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:49.519 Do you understand what I'm saying? How I think facing 517 00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:51.240 to the east, sometimes people want to do the fire 518 00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:53.119 on one instead of the air I think the same thing. 519 00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:54.279 I've heard the beats over there. 520 00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:58.400 Well, they were wanting to do fire in the east. 521 00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:00.920 I would totally go along with that with because that's, 522 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.119 you know, the similism I like to work with. 523 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:08.000 The Other reason why is many years go ahead? 524 00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.319 Sorry, so I say, there's many many years since I've 525 00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:14.880 done the hexagram, I still use Okay, you know I 526 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:19.799 like the Pentagram ritual. However, I if I do the 527 00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.480 Pentagon ritual, what I do now is adding before and 528 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:24.559 you know the thing I created the license to remain 529 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.160 because you know, I have my own spiritual court of 530 00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:31.440 spirits around me and I don't want to be insulting 531 00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:33.319 them by you know, if you do that from the 532 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:35.799 Pengram victory, you basically push everything out of the area 533 00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:40.720 so it's completely neutralized in neutral space, So you know, 534 00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:42.920 giving the permission to the spirits around you or any 535 00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:47.240 house spirits or genius Loki through outdoors to remain while 536 00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.880 you do it, so that you're not consulting, you know, 537 00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:53.400 any of those spirits when you do the Pentagram ritual. 538 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:57.839 The reason I even asked that is because I'm just 539 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:00.240 taking I guess I could be wrong, but and not 540 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:01.680 like for me when I used to let's say, if 541 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:03.519 I wanted to do planetary work, I would start off 542 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:07.200 with you vanishing with pentagram ritual first and then move 543 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:09.200 into the hexagram ritol. I'm thinking maybe if you did 544 00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:10.880 that thing with the fire in the East, you just 545 00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:14.200 want to kind of uniform with those two were going together. 546 00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:15.400 It makes sense. 547 00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:18.160 Yeah, yeah, it does make sense. And that's what I 548 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:20.279 used to do many years ago. Is right, like say 549 00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:26.079 it's pentagram and hexagram. I mean, my dissatisfaction with the 550 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:29.559 hexagram was why I created the heptogram ritual that's in 551 00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:32.519 practical Planetary magic. Jumping back to one of the things 552 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:37.200 that you said earlier wanted to you know, talk about 553 00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:39.640 those books, and that was the hexper ritual was the 554 00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:42.680 inspiration for me to make a heptogram because I thought, well, 555 00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:46.559 heptagram's seven for the planets, and let's bring in the 556 00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:49.799 Greek vowels because there's seven vowels, and that's something that 557 00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:51.960 where we can give put all of those things that 558 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:57.920 are missing from the expritual into a planetary ritual that 559 00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:02.640 just has a bit more completion to it. 560 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:07.119 But even do an opagram one within the eight directions, right, 561 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:10.359 like the four cardinal and the other other four crossing 562 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:12.279 that would be really nice as well. 563 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:20.480 We do tell I'm just gonna say, yeah, very. 564 00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.680 There's like the eight that's sort of chaosphere of things. 565 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:28.440 I mean, is what would you choose forget? Would you 566 00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:32.839 put planet Earth in his number right there? If you're 567 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:35.359 going with seven classical planets, because it makes it kind 568 00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:37.039 of makes sense for Earth to be the ape one. 569 00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:39.680 And if you look into certainly in the Grim Walls, 570 00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:43.200 you have the seven directions attributed on the quarters and 571 00:31:43.240 --> 00:31:45.559 cross quarters, but northeast is the one that doesn't have one, 572 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:49.279 and that's traditional place entering the circle. And I know 573 00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:53.279 from chatting with like Steven Skinner that in Chinese magic 574 00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:55.319 as well, they have the thing of like northeast is 575 00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:59.160 where the magician comes in for Chinese sorcery. And so 576 00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:02.920 that on those things that you can find in several systems, 577 00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:06.680 you've got the seven and then the sort of the empty, 578 00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:10.240 so there's an itbum for empty, but then you close 579 00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:13.000 it obviously, and then so that's why I'm saying, it 580 00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:15.119 kind of makes sense planet Earth to be there because 581 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:19.440 you're sealing it off and then moving transforming the space. 582 00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:24.359 So it's kind of rased separate from the mundane, so 583 00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:30.720 an optagram would have a logical place as we say, yeah, it. 584 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:34.160 Is interesting to sorry Nick, to note David that we 585 00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:38.079 do face our altars northeast so well in Varceriana, so 586 00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:41.279 and we do have ten directions, but one of those 587 00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:43.599 is the two poles moving up and down, which are 588 00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:46.440 also contained in the inner channels of course, but you 589 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:50.000 could also say, in terms of gross planetary bodies that 590 00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:52.279 the So you have the seven and then you have 591 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:55.519 the also the nine. So we have Rahu and Kattu, 592 00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:58.720 which although are shadow planets and they are assigned to 593 00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:00.640 the north and south note of the Moon, they actually 594 00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:03.559 are planets in and of themselves. And I posit that 595 00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:08.279 you can actually map Rahu to Uranus and Kattu to Neptune, 596 00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:10.839 you know, if you want to use a contemporary system. 597 00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:14.319 Just it's a speculative idea, but I think I can. 598 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:17.200 Make a case for I've seen other people make in 599 00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:21.079 case of the same thing, So yeah, I think that definitely, 600 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:23.119 you could absolutely make a case. 601 00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:26.119 As you say, chins like, damn, I thought that was 602 00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:30.079 my idea. It's happened to me before, and I. 603 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:33.039 Never think it's my idea because I recognize that kabbala 604 00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:35.519 can you can just map everything to the tree, right, 605 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:39.799 so people from first principles can sort of reconstitute how 606 00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:41.759 things should look. And I think that that was also 607 00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:45.680 my experience, just using my kind of like my system 608 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:48.000 and my view of it in a Buddhist way and 609 00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.400 just mapping into the tree and being like, okay, let's 610 00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:53.960 look at the suffer yetra and like you know, and 611 00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:56.279 map it to the contric the Mahovija system. 612 00:33:56.839 --> 00:33:59.160 So that's that's how I came to that conclusion. 613 00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:01.839 I don't think it was definitely didn't solely originate with me, 614 00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:03.640 but I think I can make us a case for 615 00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:04.599 my own. 616 00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:10.320 Also, Zay, I have any questions before I ask some 617 00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:10.760 more here? 618 00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:15.079 Yeah, just a quick one. How do you? I mean? 619 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.719 And now I've been working quite some years with spirits 620 00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:20.960 since one, David, But how do you understand them? Like 621 00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.880 if someone were to ask what are they? How would 622 00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:25.880 you explain it from you or point of view since 623 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:29.119 you've been working with them? Because I know maybe some 624 00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:31.760 schools don't like they'll do things differently. It's one, but 625 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.440 how do you personally understand them? I think that's interesting thing. 626 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:40.480 It depends on the type of spirits, but if you 627 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.119 go with like for example, celestials and infernals, then they are, 628 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:51.159 you know, distinct entities that are not and generally have 629 00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:56.320 never been human, unlike the dead for example, or some 630 00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.679 spirits and other traditions where they're from the ancestors and 631 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:05.280 people who have died. In some respects, they're quite unknowable 632 00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:10.920 because they are so different from us. But again, if 633 00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:13.519 we say angels and demons, by and large, they are 634 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:17.400 mostly airy, sometimes fiery beings in the point of view 635 00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:20.239 of where their elements are. That's why I'm One of 636 00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:22.239 the reasons I really like the Olympic Spirits is because 637 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:25.559 it specifically talks about that there are the Olympic Spirits 638 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:27.880 about balance or for elements in them, that they contain 639 00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:30.880 air of fire and water, and that balance in them 640 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:33.159 might be one of the reasons why they are so 641 00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:36.440 friendly and easy to work with. Why I always recommend 642 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:39.360 the Olympic Spirits or the plant for intelligence is to 643 00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:43.119 people starting conjuration. They're the ones that you like to 644 00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:48.639 get be the politest and friendliest and easiest to work with, 645 00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:50.840 and you get really good results with them. As well. 646 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:54.920 People want to jump in and be or dark and scared. 647 00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.119 Let's do this demonic stuff, but way better to get 648 00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:01.480 your house in order and do the other stuff with 649 00:36:01.639 --> 00:36:03.760 the spirits that have more balance to them, And then 650 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:06.880 you'll also finalize you'll probably find that you don't need 651 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:10.159 to work with the other ones. So if you can 652 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:12.679 get everything you need from working with a couple of 653 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:15.079 Olympic spirits, why go off and then start working with 654 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:18.199 loads of other ones. I don't understand the logic of that, 655 00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:21.480 you know, I don't come to tons of different spiritual ease. 656 00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:24.400 I've got a few that I work with, but they 657 00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:26.559 do a thing I need. If I need something that, 658 00:36:26.679 --> 00:36:29.519 why would I then go off and start calling up 659 00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:31.960 of ones? And I don't need to create new bonds 660 00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:36.239 and obligations if I've already got ones that can do it. 661 00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:38.840 And you see that in some of the said something 662 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:42.079 like Commander, you know, like Ureessua or Pompageira. You know, 663 00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:44.320 if they can't do the task, they'll just contact out 664 00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:45.639 to another one and then they'll tell you what you're 665 00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:47.519 going to have to offer, and you okay, so you're 666 00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:50.159 gonna have to use this Pontereau and do these offerings 667 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:53.679 and possibly this offering and sing these songs, et cetera, 668 00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:57.599 and they'll just subcontract out. And there's that in the 669 00:36:57.679 --> 00:36:59.199 Grim Walls as well as an extent when you have 670 00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:02.840 some of the intermediate spirits like Skurling and the care environment, 671 00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:06.159 also the demon bishops. I've found from my own experience 672 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:09.840 where they are things, Okay, you want this job done, 673 00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:11.880 this is this is the best person for the job. 674 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:13.880 This is the one you need to work to call on. 675 00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:19.719 So yeah, I think it's really a case of getting 676 00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.519 the right one for the job, but not overplaying it. 677 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:25.119 Not they're not Pokemon cards. You don't need to collect 678 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:27.280 the more, you don't need to do all. I've got 679 00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:29.639 our story shrining. It's now undred all seventy two. That's 680 00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:31.360 really not a good idea. If you start looking at 681 00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:33.119 the description one of them, it basically tells you that 682 00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:35.119 the main it's not really going to be helpful, but 683 00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:36.960 it's going to try and make sure you get killed. 684 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:39.519 Why would you want to call that one up for example? 685 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:43.920 You know what I mean. It's it's perhaps that thing 686 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:49.880 of keep it simple. My layers of simplicity, don't don't 687 00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:54.480 create unnecessary relationships. If you've got a small group of 688 00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:57.559 things that work really well for you, that's that's my 689 00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:01.559 that's the way I do it and suggest to other people. 690 00:38:03.880 --> 00:38:04.440 Nice thanks. 691 00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.800 Since you put out those Elemental the Planetary books, has 692 00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:11.119 your own practice and like what you even like I 693 00:38:11.159 --> 00:38:14.760 guess study and look at changed till now. 694 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:20.079 It's changed a huge amount because those things that Domini 695 00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:23.400 is very much working, you know, running groups, and they 696 00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:25.920 were sort of so a lot of stuff that's focused 697 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:34.000 on group magic. For the last fifteen years, most of 698 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:37.559 the work I've done has been you know, the Grimmaw 699 00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:40.199 stuff has been solitary. And there's been times where I've 700 00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:42.719 worked for other people because I've been doing the Grimos 701 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:50.760 stuff for or forty four years. But you know, in 702 00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:54.559 recent years it's been mainly me doing solo stuff and 703 00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:59.400 occasionally with other people. So it's changed. The point of 704 00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:03.000 view of my magic is really focused on more solitary 705 00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:08.360 practice and as a result, you know, having to have 706 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:12.920 everything sorted for yourself is it's such a different dynamic 707 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:17.199 to when you're working with other people. I like group stuff, 708 00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:21.920 but it's just not been practical. Excuse me of say, 709 00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:24.480 being in the right location or having the right people 710 00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:27.440 available to do things with at the times you want 711 00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:33.800 to do stuff. So yeah, my practices have changed a 712 00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:37.079 huge amount. And you know I did do the conjuration 713 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:39.519 in the past with groups I ran as well at times, 714 00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:43.280 like for example, back in the nineties and noughties, you 715 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:50.000 know Alexandri and covens that Iran I would focus on. 716 00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:52.920 I mean, the thing with Wicker is that it's you know, 717 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:54.880 the Book of Shadows is like a skeleton. You know, 718 00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:56.440 You've got a flesh and put the muscles and the 719 00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:02.400 sinews and the flesh on it. And so any group 720 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:06.840 that I was high priest of with the blessing of 721 00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:09.559 the High process obviously, but all the covens that i've 722 00:40:09.639 --> 00:40:15.360 co co run has been with wives, so that's not 723 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.960 been a problem that there would be a lot of 724 00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:22.719 ritual magic training thrown in there. So people, if they're 725 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:23.800 in a couple with me, they're going to get a 726 00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:26.800 lot of ritual magic training. And I also wanted them 727 00:40:26.920 --> 00:40:33.119 to experience conjuration, so I would do conjuration of Olympic 728 00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:39.280 spirits with the coven so they could experience it for themselves, 729 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:42.159 which was great because many could do it in an 730 00:40:42.199 --> 00:40:46.039 experimental way. So for example, rather than just having one squire, 731 00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:50.519 having three squires who could and would see if they 732 00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:53.159 all got the same answers to the questions that were 733 00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:56.679 asked to the Olympic Spirit, or if they got different answers, 734 00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:59.239 because that would you know, there are bemifications on that 735 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:02.639 and by lize getting the same hearing the same answer 736 00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:05.840 from the spirit. So that was an interesting thing. But 737 00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:11.559 for them to sort of understand that wicker has its 738 00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:15.920 place and for some people it's the right thing, but 739 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:20.320 there's other things as well, And so I wanted people 740 00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:22.679 to see some of the other options that they could do. 741 00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:25.880 And I mean, I know a lot of Wickens. It's 742 00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:28.840 not the only practice. They might have other things they 743 00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:30.719 do as well. I know some old school Wickans who 744 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:37.519 are really into bring more stuff, for example. It's just 745 00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:39.360 not getting into that box or I do and I 746 00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:46.159 can't do anything else, you know. I once offended an 747 00:41:46.199 --> 00:41:48.519 old school with and somebody actually who was in Garden's 748 00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:54.760 original coven. We were having a conversation and who I've 749 00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:58.760 been doing worker for forty years, and I said, oh, 750 00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:01.079 what do you do? So you know we do this 751 00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:07.199 sabot see you in the thirteen psmas. What about daily practice? Well, 752 00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:11.000 I've never done a daily practice in my life. And 753 00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:14.239 I was like, what, so that's the only mantic you do? 754 00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:22.119 So and basically, you know, the high prices and piece. 755 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.599 Because it was Gardner's original Covenant, they did all pretty 756 00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:27.719 much all the work anyway, so the people just learnt 757 00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:30.880 by watching and they didn't didn't get stuck, explained and 758 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:34.719 I was like, wow, okay, And then I said Tom, 759 00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:39.800 I said, well, you know, this might sound rude, but 760 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:42.559 I would rather work for someone who's done a year's 761 00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:46.760 daily practice than someone who's had forty years of occasional rituals, 762 00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:51.199 because they have put in the discipline, persistence and will 763 00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:54.039 have got more from that. And then I said the 764 00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:55.880 bit that I was young at the time, so it 765 00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:00.639 was a bit of a an asshole move. Then I 766 00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:02.199 said to him, you know, forty years of shit is 767 00:43:02.199 --> 00:43:06.239 still ship, which looking back, I now I think that 768 00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:09.920 was a bit that was just like the arrogance of youth, 769 00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:12.559 And that was not a really very nice thing to say, 770 00:43:13.159 --> 00:43:16.920 even if you can think of just an element of 771 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.920 truth in it, it was still a pretty roofing say. 772 00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:21.440 But I was, you know, I was in the early 773 00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:24.880 twenties at the time, and at that age. You know, 774 00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:28.000 back in those days in the eighties, it was like 775 00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:33.199 it was a very different scene to the world now. 776 00:43:33.559 --> 00:43:35.239 Oh yeah, sure, yeah. 777 00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:40.079 But to me that that is a huge thing that 778 00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:46.960 I see. There's a big absence of the whole thing 779 00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:51.800 of particularly in the early years, the importance of daily practice. 780 00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:55.440 It makes such a solid foundation. You know, you've got 781 00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:59.280 to be doing your meditation and originalization, give breath work, 782 00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:02.719 et cetera, on a daily basis to strengthen those muscles 783 00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:06.679 to the imagination, the mental muscles, et cetera. For effective practice. 784 00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:09.119 If you can't visualize something, how are you going to 785 00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:14.039 have an effective intent to expell et cetera. So people 786 00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:16.280 just want to jump in and start, you know, in 787 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:19.239 the deep end and drown they can. But for me, 788 00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:23.280 the daily practice thing is absolutely essential. 789 00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:29.599 I was going to ask you that what would be well, 790 00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:31.039 I was going to ask you back in the days 791 00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:36.760 when you put out the Pentagram, the Elemental, Daily, Mental, 792 00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.760 and the Planetary books, what was your daily practice like 793 00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:42.679 back then? The reason I asked it was probably very 794 00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:44.400 close to what mine was. That's why it is. 795 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:50.840 Back then I was, well, I haven't done it for 796 00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:52.880 many years since I was doing the heptogram as a 797 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:55.920 daily and you know, switching up the heptogram, you know, 798 00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:58.159 starting the prop according to the planet of the day. 799 00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:02.280 I was doing a lot, quite a lot of devotional 800 00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:07.039 work at the time, and I go through I've gone 801 00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:10.280 through phases in my life where if I'm not doing 802 00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:13.400 a lot of active stuff, then I'll just be doing, 803 00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:15.519 like you know, on a daily basis, I have to 804 00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:21.000 do something just be simple meditation, visualization, and possibly and 805 00:45:21.079 --> 00:45:23.079 then I might I want to do a devotion to 806 00:45:23.239 --> 00:45:26.400 a particular deity for a month or a few months 807 00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:30.079 or something. So I was doing a lot at the time. 808 00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:33.599 I was doing a lot of stuff with Hectian hermes, 809 00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:39.920 so there was like devotional stuff with them. And then 810 00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:43.000 I had like a daily energetic practice that I created 811 00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:44.920 that I was doing every day that you know, I 812 00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:50.719 did for decades. But I've actually started doing now after 813 00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:54.719 my spirits said it's a great practice that it's actually 814 00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:58.320 blocking some of your sensitivity. And it's true that I 815 00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:01.679 found that I've my psychic the psychism has like kind 816 00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:05.800 of spiked and got a lot better since I started 817 00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:10.639 the practice. So it's like great, great sort of energetic walls, 818 00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:12.559 as it were, but those walls were also keeping up 819 00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:15.800 stuff that I needed up to come in. You know, 820 00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:17.239 you can you can oversheeld. 821 00:46:18.119 --> 00:46:20.599 So we got a question from the audience. He says, 822 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.320 how much has the occult ritual forms changed over the 823 00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:24.920 last twenty five to fifty years. 824 00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:33.320 Well, it's it's changed a lot. I mean back in 825 00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:36.800 the I mean back in the eighties, got the late 826 00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:40.760 eighties when chaos magic really hit. You know, I had 827 00:46:40.760 --> 00:46:42.639 a lot of friends who are on the chaos magic scene. 828 00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:46.599 I was kind of involved a bit. I used to 829 00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:52.199 write under a pseudonym for Chaos International back in the days, 830 00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:57.480 so there's some of my material in there. But with 831 00:46:57.639 --> 00:47:00.400 charismagic there was really nothing of like stripping the stuff 832 00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:03.039 back and just getting to like technique and practice. And 833 00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:05.880 I'm all in favor of focusing on technique and practice. 834 00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:07.559 I think it kind of lost its way a bit, 835 00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:12.639 myself personally bian But there are good people doing the stuff. 836 00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:16.320 And what I found interesting is a lot of people 837 00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:18.440 in chais magic have often been come back upon themselves 838 00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:22.000 being very focused into something like Norse magic and the Rooms, 839 00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:27.239 for example, or Tantra, or really heavily into breath work. 840 00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:31.559 It's like they end up not being that chaotic, and 841 00:47:31.639 --> 00:47:34.360 most of the chass magicians I know actually the most 842 00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:40.519 ordered and structured people. So charismagic is really good because 843 00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:45.159 it was a bit like the punk of magic, you know, 844 00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:48.440 like let's let's get away, get rid of all the 845 00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:51.519 detritus and what we don't need and go back and 846 00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:55.239 just focus on what actually works for us. And that's 847 00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:58.920 so it really pushed that key thing of you know, 848 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:02.920 doing magic that worked. If it's not working what you're doing, 849 00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:06.039 you know, you need to either change it up, look 850 00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:08.639 at what's going wrong, or switch to something else that 851 00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:12.400 does work. So that was a big shift. The Internet 852 00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:15.559 changed things massively as well. You know, from the mid 853 00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:17.119 nineties on you need to get the you know, the 854 00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:20.679 the BBL boards and stuff where people were saying they 855 00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:23.440 able to start communicating and finding out because prior to that, 856 00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:28.559 you know, you go back to the eighties, there were 857 00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:31.719 it was really hard to find people. There was the 858 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:36.599 occasional conference, but certainly in the UK conferences. I was 859 00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:39.079 part of the first fore Linix impostment in nineteen eighty 860 00:48:39.079 --> 00:48:41.079 six in Oxford, and that was the first thing of 861 00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:44.239 its kind where we had this symposing like Fellowites came 862 00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:46.320 from all over Europe and a couple even came from 863 00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:49.880 the States for this gathering. We had like, you know, 864 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:56.079 really good speakers. That's it, you know. We had Michaelmgee, 865 00:48:56.280 --> 00:49:00.239 Lionel Snell, David Rietti who was in the calor Pace 866 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:05.599 at the time who's passed since I can't remember who else, 867 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:09.079 but it was really it was a great gathering, and 868 00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:11.280 suddenly there was a sense of community there, like we 869 00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:14.960 had like one hundred of Pelomites from all over the 870 00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:19.800 place getting together and people starting to make connections. The 871 00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:23.800 Internet enabled people to make those connections online immediately, rather 872 00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:27.159 than having to try and find out about events that 873 00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:29.960 you'd only find out about a few subscribed to certain 874 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:33.199 magazines where the events are advertised, or went into a 875 00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:36.199 magical bookshop that you've tracked down and they happen to 876 00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:41.719 have an advert up. So that proliferation has meant that 877 00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:45.679 people have shared a lot more and so there's been 878 00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:48.880 a lot more exchange and change. There's also been, you know, 879 00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:54.039 since the early noughties, things growing and blooming, like the 880 00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:58.280 Grimwell tradition. There was very little Grimwell stuff. The odd 881 00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:02.719 book done prior to early two thousands. You know, then 882 00:50:03.639 --> 00:50:05.800 Joseph Peace and doing all his amazing stuff and his 883 00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:10.480 hysteric Archives of website. You know, Stephen my found in 884 00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:12.880 Golden Hoard and putting out the source Wip series, and 885 00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:15.400 then loads of other people started doing really good stuff, 886 00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:19.000 and the Grimweld Edition really blossomed and folk magic has 887 00:50:19.079 --> 00:50:22.679 become really big. So there's been loads of changes. Another 888 00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:24.440 one is that there's a lot more spirit based magic 889 00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:28.440 now than there was. And one thing that I'm really 890 00:50:28.519 --> 00:50:33.639 happy about is that back in the eighties, nineties, to 891 00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:37.519 a lesser except the noughties as well, even people were 892 00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:40.320 not really paying attention to the dead. There were people 893 00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:43.280 weren't doing a lot of ancestral stuff or working with 894 00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:47.000 Fitsteadit it's like this whole thing of the that's actually dooble, 895 00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:48.840 just do something at Swayne and remember the dend and 896 00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:51.199 the rest of the year, it's like we won't even 897 00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:53.760 think about them. But it's like they don't go away. 898 00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:57.039 They're there the whole time, you know. It's like it's 899 00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:03.239 I think the ATR particularly have been influentially making people 900 00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:06.320 pay a lot more attention to the influence of the 901 00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:09.079 dead and the ancestors, and that's become a lot more 902 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.039 present in a lot of people's workings, which is something 903 00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:15.920 I'm very happy about because I mean that's something that 904 00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:18.679 got influenced by early people like Crowley. You know Crowley's 905 00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:22.400 coment about spiritualism being a Internetcrophilia, and he had a 906 00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:25.079 very negative adage that. And you know, Crowley is such 907 00:51:25.079 --> 00:51:28.000 a two age sword. Some of his materials has been 908 00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:31.760 great and transformational, and some of it was such a 909 00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:36.599 screw up, like his attitude of the AARs Garcia spirits 910 00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:40.960 being parts of the human psyche that he postulated and 911 00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:43.800 then wavered on. But so lots of people go, oh, yeah, 912 00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:45.719 the demons are just part of my mind. No, they're 913 00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:50.320 bloody not so. Yeah, there've been a huge amount of changes. 914 00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:59.519 I think there's a lot more good practice available, but 915 00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:04.199 there's all they've been who's proliferation in bullshit, people who 916 00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:07.320 don't know what they talk about, basting on TikTok and 917 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:13.599 other basis. So it's a case of one of the 918 00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:16.840 things that the last fifty years has really brought in 919 00:52:17.079 --> 00:52:20.880 is people really need to have their discernment filters on 920 00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:27.920 when they're engaging, especially online, getting run over. 921 00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:36.079 I was going to ask, coming from the elemental base 922 00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:41.519 of mythology and bringing that forth in regard to your traditions, 923 00:52:41.559 --> 00:52:44.639 when you're doing your research, how far back into these 924 00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:47.199 traditions are you digging? 925 00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:52.599 Well, the Grimwall stuff, I'm going back as far as 926 00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:58.480 I can, so you know, the Grimwall's proper kind of 927 00:52:58.519 --> 00:53:01.800 start reading from about the twelve percent twelfth thirteenth century. 928 00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:06.480 But you've got four threads that really feed into the Grimis, 929 00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:13.679 which is from the Greek and as I'll go back 930 00:53:13.719 --> 00:53:21.039 to that Arabic, Jewish, and Latin Christian. Obviously, with those 931 00:53:21.159 --> 00:53:22.920 we can then take some of them further back. So 932 00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:27.239 the Greek stuff is influenced by Egypt and Suma for example. 933 00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:31.360 So you know, you can look at things, what you 934 00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:36.639 can say there is a continuity of idea and practice. 935 00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:39.159 It's not an unbroken line all the way back to 936 00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:41.599 eating consumer from the Grimwals, but there is a continuity 937 00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:45.199 of practice, the use of the magic circle, having spirits 938 00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:50.000 in the directions, having guardians, various things like this. Then 939 00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:52.519 we look at the Arabic. Obviously, one component of the 940 00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:55.199 Arabic is that they preserve a lot of the Greek 941 00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:59.039 matial that otherwise would have been lost. But also the 942 00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:05.719 Arabic you also feeding there from India and possibly China. 943 00:54:06.079 --> 00:54:07.280 I mean a good example of that it is the 944 00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:10.519 Mansions of the Moon, because you know the Mansions of 945 00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:12.159 the Moon people talk about in the Pickatricks and the 946 00:54:12.199 --> 00:54:14.159 greenwas and how it comes to the Arabs. But the 947 00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:16.800 Arabs got it from the Greeks who write about the 948 00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:18.880 Mansions of the Moon, and then the Greeks got it 949 00:54:18.920 --> 00:54:21.920 from India. So that's actually an Indian idea that is 950 00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:26.039 fed via Greece into the Arabic and then into the 951 00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:31.119 European Greenworld edition. So it's really traveled. So yeah, I 952 00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:34.320 look to try and track back as far as I 953 00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:39.039 can in history and then present what I've found, and 954 00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:41.599 I'm sure there's I think there's a lot more needs 955 00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:47.400 to be done on the Indian connection, start because obviously 956 00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:50.800 the fact that India did have that connection to Greece 957 00:54:51.880 --> 00:54:54.159 means there's probably more stuff that needs to be looked 958 00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:57.639 at with connections there that hasn't really been done yet. 959 00:54:58.280 --> 00:55:01.320 So yeah, as far as possible, smiled, so I suppose 960 00:55:01.320 --> 00:55:01.719 as I can. 961 00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:05.920 Yeah, Yeah, admirable. That's what it's all about. Is really 962 00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:09.199 digging in and finding the true essence and juice of 963 00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:12.239 what these things are about. That's what I really enjoy 964 00:55:12.280 --> 00:55:12.920 about it all. 965 00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:15.559 Too well. 966 00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:18.880 Even Promanities can be said to be part of the 967 00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:24.679 Greek sort of Grimore tradition because his on Nature, you 968 00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:27.559 know verse that started off you know, ontology and all 969 00:55:27.559 --> 00:55:30.559 the rest of these philosophical movements was based in the 970 00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:33.519 castle of the Queen of the Knight. So he's actually 971 00:55:33.639 --> 00:55:37.159 having some sort of a divine experience as he's describing 972 00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:39.880 things like formal logic for the first time in the 973 00:55:40.280 --> 00:55:42.960 least agent Greece. So there's a lot of that Grimore 974 00:55:43.039 --> 00:55:47.039 tradition that sort of carries through into philosophy through the Neoplatonics, 975 00:55:48.039 --> 00:55:49.000 and so a lot of that. 976 00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:51.559 You know, it doesn't get recognized as such. 977 00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.440 But if you look at the way that it's written, 978 00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:57.559 it's clearly talking about communicating with spirits and gods. 979 00:55:58.079 --> 00:55:58.199 Right. 980 00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:02.079 Well, I'm sorry, sorry, David, my apologies. 981 00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:06.079 As the neoplatonic thing is, you know, some people aren't 982 00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:08.760 vaking on neoplatonism, but it's a really big influence because 983 00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:11.039 because you get sort of the Christian thing of neo 984 00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:14.320 platonic stuff, like with ptudodigonosis, the area Paga, who's the 985 00:56:14.360 --> 00:56:18.079 guy who writes success to hierarchies, which is the first 986 00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:21.639 sort of cataloging of the nine orders of angels, which 987 00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:24.360 then goes throughout the whole of Christianity. And you also 988 00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:27.320 get people in the Renaissance like Giordano Bruno who were 989 00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:30.559 sort of doing neoplatonic stuff and bringing in the whole 990 00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:34.280 idea then of the image magic astromagic as astra and 991 00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:36.480 the sense of its image and bringing in that side 992 00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:38.800 of things and going off onto stuff like memory palaces, 993 00:56:38.840 --> 00:56:41.599 and it goes all over the place. So absolutely that 994 00:56:42.320 --> 00:56:46.360 is a huge in relance and the semi cross fertilization. 995 00:56:46.519 --> 00:56:49.400 You know, no magical system unless it's on some island 996 00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:52.239 in the middle of the Pacific or something exists in operation. 997 00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:55.239 There's always been all this cross fertilization and syncretization that's 998 00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:58.559 gone on, and that going back to the earlier comments 999 00:56:58.599 --> 00:57:01.559 some worried about how things have changed. That's one of 1000 00:57:01.599 --> 00:57:03.880 the things I think we've seen in recent years is 1001 00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:07.880 there's a lot more prospertalization than syncretization between different groups, 1002 00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:11.400 where people are recognizing the value and it's not about 1003 00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:16.519 appropriation it's about recognizing, hey, this works really well. I Mean, 1004 00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:20.079 somebody asked me, how do you decide whether you're appropriating 1005 00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:22.679 or what if you include something for non practice, And 1006 00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:24.960 my answer to that was, I will look if there 1007 00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:29.079 are parallels to what I see that I like anywhere 1008 00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:31.960 in my tradition, and if there are, then I can 1009 00:57:32.039 --> 00:57:35.159 work from those routes. If there aren't, then I'm not 1010 00:57:35.239 --> 00:57:39.159 going to appropriate it. But you know, it's the parallels thing. 1011 00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:42.599 It's like with the wind says parallels. So often there 1012 00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:47.159 are parallels because the way the human mind and spirit works, 1013 00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:49.559 you know, we're all kind of flowing in the same 1014 00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:52.400 general direction, so nothing is going to be unique. 1015 00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:58.119 I think it's really interesting what you just guess. We're 1016 00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:00.239 kind of just saying now in so many words. And 1017 00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:02.159 there's even a topic of a show that I had 1018 00:58:02.199 --> 00:58:04.119 thought of doing on my own, because like I have 1019 00:58:04.239 --> 00:58:06.360 covered so many people recently, and some of them are 1020 00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:10.119 even on Gnostic saints, you know, doing you know, shows 1021 00:58:10.159 --> 00:58:13.360 on certain alchemists or ocultis in the past. I don't 1022 00:58:13.400 --> 00:58:15.199 think the reason why I even want to do it, 1023 00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:17.320 and you know, not be tiff tat, but like you know, 1024 00:58:17.480 --> 00:58:22.239 in in in the conspiracy community and podcasting. Christian podcasters 1025 00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:24.400 will be the first one they call people like me Satanists, 1026 00:58:25.199 --> 00:58:26.719 And I think it's pretty funny if you were to 1027 00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:30.239 actually realize how many people that I'm interested in actually 1028 00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:33.840 shaped your idea of Christianity. It's fucking going you. They 1029 00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:35.639 have zero clue obviously. 1030 00:58:36.519 --> 00:58:36.599 And. 1031 00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:44.480 Christianity is it's a huge influence during the Renaissance. So yeah, yeah, yeah. 1032 00:58:45.559 --> 00:58:50.079 Also, David, sorry to follow up though to next point, David, 1033 00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:52.639 do you think of that people? This has been a 1034 00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:56.199 point of contention on the panel before. I take the 1035 00:58:56.280 --> 00:59:00.119 pro sort of a of the sun pro Christianity in 1036 00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:02.960 a way, the esoteric sort of layer camp. I'm pro that, 1037 00:59:03.679 --> 00:59:06.480 But do you think we should respect the context of 1038 00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:11.320 Christianity in terms of the grimwork tradition and how it arises, 1039 00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:15.599 and that perhaps it's not super useful always to create 1040 00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:20.719 dialectical polls against like certain you know, more outer I 1041 00:59:20.719 --> 00:59:23.239 always say outer temple religion for outer temple people. 1042 00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:25.440 So there's always got to be there has to be 1043 00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:26.960 a catch all for like those. 1044 00:59:26.800 --> 00:59:29.159 People, and maybe it's more useful to speak to them 1045 00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:32.119 in their language rather than try and impose your you know, 1046 00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:33.719 worldview or will on them. 1047 00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:35.360 I don't know, just what do you think of that? 1048 00:59:37.119 --> 00:59:41.280 Well, I mean I recently wrote about grim wall I mean, 1049 00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:44.440 grims are essentially in the Christian framework. You know, it's 1050 00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:47.480 the Christian cosmology. There are fact that there are elements 1051 00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:50.519 and elsewhere, but by large and the battery that is 1052 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:54.639 operated on is fifteen hundred years of Christianity, so it's 1053 00:59:54.639 --> 00:59:59.679 a hugely powerful battery. But I say the Christians the 1054 00:59:59.679 --> 01:00:03.519 grim is quite more heretical in the sense that it's 1055 01:00:03.599 --> 01:00:08.400 not the Christianity of churches and priests and congregations. It's 1056 01:00:09.159 --> 01:00:12.199 a Christianity of there's these spirits and I can deal 1057 01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:18.239 with them directly. You know, it doesn't need to be 1058 01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:20.840 done in the church, in fact, preferably outdoors because all 1059 01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:23.719 the early grimmar stuff. It's all about doing it away 1060 01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:25.360 from people where you're not going to get caught in 1061 01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:29.760 trouble for doing these strange rituals which the church wouldn't 1062 01:00:29.840 --> 01:00:36.000 prove of. So and some people struggle with the fact 1063 01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:38.079 that there is such a Christian framework to the grimwals, 1064 01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:40.679 and I have. I mean there's been Jack Strand Kent 1065 01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:42.719 Geo Sophia is a good example of that. Looking at 1066 01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:45.599 the Greek where it's with the goez and things. That 1067 01:00:46.039 --> 01:00:48.000 is one of the big feeding factors in I mean, 1068 01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:50.840 I don't agree that it's the only one. You know, 1069 01:00:50.960 --> 01:00:53.280 Jake stress, is that really heavily. I think the Jewish 1070 01:00:53.320 --> 01:00:59.360 influence is hugely significant, because you know, back in two 1071 01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:01.519 thousand and five in Planatory of Life, I said I 1072 01:01:01.639 --> 01:01:05.920 think there's a Macava influence into the grimwast example, which 1073 01:01:05.960 --> 01:01:08.760 I was really happy to discover. There's actually stuff from 1074 01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:11.079 the Macava text and Seemer taken magic a proving my 1075 01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:16.400 point that I was correct. You know, there was, but 1076 01:01:16.519 --> 01:01:19.880 there are components of the grim Walls which you can 1077 01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:22.000 see there from earlier times. I mean, there's all the 1078 01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:25.800 Canaanite names of God that you know, the produced now 1079 01:01:25.880 --> 01:01:28.480 that's in the Bible. For example, I get used and 1080 01:01:29.840 --> 01:01:33.880 one of the things I've added in to the way 1081 01:01:33.920 --> 01:01:36.159 I do grimware stuff, and it's in you know, Carba 1082 01:01:36.199 --> 01:01:39.320 Smith and I was having the shakina there so that 1083 01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:42.280 you have the balance of divine feminine divine masculine, which 1084 01:01:42.360 --> 01:01:47.320 completely transforms the circle, the magic circle that you do 1085 01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:50.079 con duration in because it brings the whole thing of 1086 01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:53.440 the divine wisdom and there's a grace, sort of fluidity 1087 01:01:53.480 --> 01:01:56.000 and beauty to the practice with it, and apart from 1088 01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:59.679 anything else, we all have a pregnant shaquen in us 1089 01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:02.079 as the spark of our soul. Means that if you're 1090 01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:04.679 working with the shakin you're actually activating the divine fragment 1091 01:02:04.679 --> 01:02:06.519 of yourself, so you have the authority to deal with 1092 01:02:06.599 --> 01:02:10.599 the spirits. So that's not classically a part of the tradition, 1093 01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:12.960 but to me, it's something that entirely makes sense, and 1094 01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:15.039 it's something that I got pushed by my spirits to 1095 01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:18.400 look at, and I looked and there's a lot of 1096 01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:20.400 references in the grim walls that kind of hint at 1097 01:02:20.440 --> 01:02:23.559 her presence without it ever being said to me, that 1098 01:02:23.679 --> 01:02:27.280 was enough of a reason to bring the shakina into 1099 01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:32.480 the conjuration sequence. And I've found, you know, it works 1100 01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:34.360 like a dream, and the spirits are really happy about 1101 01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:36.599 it as well that I work with that, you know, 1102 01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:39.480 the chikin has been made a part of the sequence. 1103 01:02:40.400 --> 01:02:44.320 I absolutely agree with you, David, obviously, because in Vadariana 1104 01:02:44.400 --> 01:02:46.400 and in Tatra more generally, of course, you have the 1105 01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:49.519 Shiva and the shakti or the breath and the compassion 1106 01:02:49.880 --> 01:02:53.519 or the couple in Yabyam in divine Union, if you 1107 01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:55.559 want to caut that. So I absolutely agree with that, 1108 01:02:55.719 --> 01:02:58.599 And I also wanted to sort of follow up on 1109 01:02:58.840 --> 01:03:02.000 your idea of sing criticism in Central Asia, like through 1110 01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:04.840 the Mughal the Mughalized Indians. There's a lot of interesting 1111 01:03:04.920 --> 01:03:08.800 scholarship about how they were actually taking contric ideas, specifically 1112 01:03:08.840 --> 01:03:12.000 from Kashmir, and then sort of encoding them into this 1113 01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:16.679 Moughalized Persianified Arabic that they repackage and then sold to 1114 01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:20.760 or gave to the sort of Arab bankers who were 1115 01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:23.679 the supporters of their court. So I think that that 1116 01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:26.599 scholarship is just beginning now, but I think it does 1117 01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.159 answer at least respond to some of the things that 1118 01:03:29.239 --> 01:03:31.639 you were thinking about how a lot of Indian ideas 1119 01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:36.320 were not necessarily laundered but sort of traded along into 1120 01:03:36.760 --> 01:03:38.760 the greater Arabic Gramar tradition. 1121 01:03:42.599 --> 01:03:45.159 Well, I was going to ask a quick question about 1122 01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:48.519 or a reading do you use or viewing or a 1123 01:03:48.639 --> 01:03:51.360 reading within your practices, because what I've found is like 1124 01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:53.960 if you go back to the ancient text, they could 1125 01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:57.280 be describing that, especially with things like the Chicaga glory, 1126 01:03:57.800 --> 01:04:00.679 like they're looking at some sort of an envelope of 1127 01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:03.880 energy around these people that we see translated in artwork 1128 01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:06.199 as the you know, the halo or these other things. 1129 01:04:06.519 --> 01:04:08.920 But the act of viewing could be a form of 1130 01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:12.119 like gnostic site. Right, You're you're looking at the world 1131 01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:14.840 with different eyes. So we see that a lot in 1132 01:04:15.119 --> 01:04:17.199 all of the ancient texts as well. Did you have 1133 01:04:17.239 --> 01:04:18.039 any experience with that. 1134 01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:25.599 I do times see people's auras, and it's always very 1135 01:04:25.639 --> 01:04:29.280 interesting to see where the dominances are like color wise 1136 01:04:29.400 --> 01:04:35.280 and yes, And what I have on a similar vein 1137 01:04:36.280 --> 01:04:43.400 to that is remote viewing with permission people doing ritual 1138 01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:46.679 and being able to then see the auras of the 1139 01:04:46.760 --> 01:04:50.960 practitioners while they're doing it and seeing the circle and 1140 01:04:51.159 --> 01:04:54.599 the things is a really interesting practice. I mean, it's 1141 01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:58.239 actually a really rewarding thing to do because it gives 1142 01:04:58.320 --> 01:05:06.239 another level of experiential certainty. Give a funny example of this. 1143 01:05:07.760 --> 01:05:12.480 Many years back in nineteen eighty seven, I was leading 1144 01:05:12.519 --> 01:05:15.079 a ritual in Oxford. It was a public ritual and 1145 01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:18.039 the one sort of hillside in these woods just outside 1146 01:05:18.039 --> 01:05:21.039 of Oxford, and we had about eighty people. There is 1147 01:05:21.039 --> 01:05:23.559 a group that was doing stuff for animal rights and 1148 01:05:25.679 --> 01:05:28.480 there was three sort of local hippies were sitting on 1149 01:05:28.519 --> 01:05:31.760 the hill watching us, and we did the reason. Afterwards 1150 01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:34.840 they came up and they were like, wow, thanks for 1151 01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:37.519 the light show. And these guys were tripping off their 1152 01:05:37.559 --> 01:05:42.239 brains on acid and said what these guys then described 1153 01:05:42.280 --> 01:05:45.880 to us amazingly they were coherent of to describe, but 1154 01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:50.280 they're like, when the surfa been drawn, they've seen this 1155 01:05:50.519 --> 01:05:54.880 like white fire guy all around, and when the particular 1156 01:05:54.920 --> 01:05:56.880 goddess and God have been called, the person called the 1157 01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:00.400 god has said, seeing this cascade of energy into them, 1158 01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:01.880 and they've seen a different color one for the guy 1159 01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:04.679 doing the god. And they were describing all the aura 1160 01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:07.880 stuff that was going on just because they were in 1161 01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:10.199 that state tripping on the acids that they were actually 1162 01:06:10.239 --> 01:06:13.719 seeing the energetic component of the ritual because they were 1163 01:06:13.719 --> 01:06:17.039 described exactly all the things had happened, and these were 1164 01:06:17.039 --> 01:06:19.760 people who had no understanding experience of magic. 1165 01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:24.519 As a hyper sensitivityscore. 1166 01:06:23.599 --> 01:06:26.400 Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I really push 1167 01:06:26.599 --> 01:06:28.840 it with people. If anyone I trained that one of 1168 01:06:28.840 --> 01:06:30.679 the first things you've got to work on is your visualization, 1169 01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:34.679 because daily visualization practice even if you think I'm not, 1170 01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:37.480 I'm a psychic. As a turnip, right, it helps open 1171 01:06:37.519 --> 01:06:40.440 you up. It helps develop your power to visualize. But 1172 01:06:40.519 --> 01:06:46.559 that also increases your psychic sensitivity and will make you 1173 01:06:46.679 --> 01:06:49.800 more sensitive doing that as daily practice, particularly over the years. 1174 01:06:50.639 --> 01:06:54.000 And so yeah, I think that thing of being able 1175 01:06:54.079 --> 01:06:58.639 to see what's going on energetically is like a really 1176 01:06:58.840 --> 01:06:59.920 useful thing to have there. 1177 01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:05.599 Yeah, I'll say even using other senses sometimes if you 1178 01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:09.360 have them like more easily for you, for example, the 1179 01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:16.360 smell or the taste or whatever, that's also very let's say, 1180 01:07:16.360 --> 01:07:20.159 it enhances also be the whole situation, whole experience. And 1181 01:07:20.599 --> 01:07:24.519 I completely agree with this idea of also, like you 1182 01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:28.960 were saying earlier, like trying making other people try and 1183 01:07:29.079 --> 01:07:31.679 test the thing that you're doing or maybe be there 1184 01:07:31.760 --> 01:07:33.800 like in this case you mentioned it wasn't it was 1185 01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:35.360 kind of my chance right that people were there. 1186 01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:37.719 But if you can do it reliably, it also helps. 1187 01:07:38.519 --> 01:07:40.719 I had I had my mom go up the tree 1188 01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:43.960 as I was doing a practice that was doing in swamp, 1189 01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:46.360 and it was funny because I mean, I never talked 1190 01:07:46.360 --> 01:07:49.400 her about anything, but as she was describing each of 1191 01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:52.440 the things in the spheres, she was like completely doing 1192 01:07:52.480 --> 01:07:55.960 the crustal and I went, Okay, to me, that's a 1193 01:07:56.400 --> 01:07:58.159 very good sign. You know, like a person never heard 1194 01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:00.480 about it and they can see the thing more and 1195 01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:03.280 get the associations. So that's very cool. 1196 01:08:04.960 --> 01:08:07.440 I mean the psychic senses actually, you know in Club 1197 01:08:07.480 --> 01:08:09.519 of Spirit and I wrote a chatter about the senses 1198 01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:13.239 in conjuration and also the psychic aspects of them like 1199 01:08:14.199 --> 01:08:17.239 Claire Auditory, Claire of Faction, et cetera. And you know 1200 01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:21.119 how those can be subtle helped with picking up sids 1201 01:08:21.199 --> 01:08:25.000 that the spirits have arrived, because the visual image of 1202 01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:27.159 them in the crystal isn't always necessarily the first thing. 1203 01:08:27.399 --> 01:08:29.920 And even taste. I mean I've had it on more 1204 01:08:29.960 --> 01:08:32.439 than one occasion when it's been a Martiall spirit where 1205 01:08:32.439 --> 01:08:35.039 I've got like a metallic tongue in my mouth, like 1206 01:08:35.439 --> 01:08:37.960 a psychic taste that that spirit has turned up. It's like, okay, 1207 01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:40.680 I know you're in the ball, so trying to show 1208 01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:46.960 yourself please. So yeah, not to underestimate those psychic senses 1209 01:08:47.000 --> 01:08:49.680 and the fact they will develop through doing magic. Even 1210 01:08:49.720 --> 01:08:53.720 if you go in thinking I'm completely psychically a brick 1211 01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:56.399 and a zero, you will not remain at that state. 1212 01:08:56.479 --> 01:08:59.960 If you're doing your daily practice, you're doing thesization, meditations, 1213 01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:03.359 actually doing rituals, they will those muscles will develop and 1214 01:09:03.399 --> 01:09:05.159 your psychos will increase. 1215 01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:09.399 And I was going to say, when you get into 1216 01:09:09.880 --> 01:09:13.439 just the long standing tradition of following this back as 1217 01:09:13.479 --> 01:09:16.479 far as we can into the ancient mysts of history, 1218 01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:19.760 this is something that people have been participating with. So 1219 01:09:20.159 --> 01:09:23.600 in essence, there's a genetic memory that kind of carries 1220 01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:28.159 through the whole as as you know, the entirety of humanity. 1221 01:09:29.840 --> 01:09:33.079 Yeah, and things like fragrance is a great one, you know, 1222 01:09:33.199 --> 01:09:38.000 because smell is the strongest sense and for mental associated 1223 01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:40.319 with memory. And we going back to the you know, 1224 01:09:40.439 --> 01:09:42.720 like to arcade Mandays with the use of fragrance, whether 1225 01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:44.680 it's plain resonant stuff being thrown on the fire, what 1226 01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:49.600 have you. That and spirits loves sweet president smells as well. 1227 01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:54.960 So the importance of the other senses, people should not 1228 01:09:55.079 --> 01:10:00.359 underestimate it. And like I said that those build into 1229 01:10:01.039 --> 01:10:01.760 our heritage. 1230 01:10:05.079 --> 01:10:09.600 It's almost like to help with the that they you 1231 01:10:09.640 --> 01:10:12.840 already have, like the whatever, how you do a practice right, 1232 01:10:12.880 --> 01:10:14.840 Maybe you have the kendles, maybe you have smaller stuff 1233 01:10:14.880 --> 01:10:17.920 like the incense then with the specific smell might also 1234 01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:19.199 help to connect with them. 1235 01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:24.079 Umigation. It's all over the age of world. They're always fumigating, 1236 01:10:24.119 --> 01:10:25.800 and that's that's a big part of it. But I 1237 01:10:25.880 --> 01:10:29.239 think that it's this web of associations that we see 1238 01:10:29.279 --> 01:10:31.079 as the Kabbala try and all the rest of these 1239 01:10:31.119 --> 01:10:33.720 things that come out of the ritual magic, Like they 1240 01:10:33.800 --> 01:10:36.279 start to understand things better by getting to know these 1241 01:10:36.279 --> 01:10:40.039 spirits and seeing all of these vast myriad associations with 1242 01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:42.600 them as as sort of like that starting point for 1243 01:10:42.880 --> 01:10:44.479 an understanding of the world around them. 1244 01:10:46.680 --> 01:10:51.920 Yeah, the the doing of it and then getting into 1245 01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:57.600 this the spirit ecology of the subtle stuff that's going on. 1246 01:10:58.640 --> 01:11:00.600 That's a little part. Always the will say, well, how 1247 01:11:00.640 --> 01:11:02.159 do you know any of this stuff? You're doing this reel? 1248 01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:06.319 How do you know electricity is real? How do you 1249 01:11:06.359 --> 01:11:08.319 know X rays are real? These things that you can't see, 1250 01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:10.960 but you know you see their effects, You know they're there. 1251 01:11:11.359 --> 01:11:13.560 You see one seventieth of the light spectrum? What about 1252 01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:17.720 the other sixteen seventieths. It's the same principle. We're working 1253 01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:20.920 with spirits and subtle energies. We know from experience that 1254 01:11:20.960 --> 01:11:27.279 they're real. We have direct experience of them. So that 1255 01:11:27.479 --> 01:11:29.680 is the difference, isn't it. It's like the experience, like 1256 01:11:30.159 --> 01:11:34.640 experienceial stuff. You know it's real, you just only can 1257 01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:36.520 get on to do. And once somebody has had an 1258 01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:40.039 experience that confirms it for them, that's usually when they 1259 01:11:41.399 --> 01:11:44.800 the practice tends to take on more solidity, I think 1260 01:11:44.840 --> 01:11:46.159 for many people, and. 1261 01:11:46.319 --> 01:11:51.800 The belief itself precipitates higher forms of experience. 1262 01:11:52.520 --> 01:11:52.760 Yeah. 1263 01:11:54.159 --> 01:11:58.000 Yeah, it's funny because I saw it on Twitter yesterday 1264 01:11:58.279 --> 01:12:02.479 that now, I mean, we already have virtual vision, right, 1265 01:12:02.680 --> 01:12:05.680 like we are seeing each other through a virtual thing. 1266 01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:08.079 We are hearing each other through a virtual thing. And 1267 01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:11.239 then yesterday I saw they were doing some virtual smelling. 1268 01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:15.800 So they put like an ultrasound thing on of victoric 1269 01:12:15.920 --> 01:12:19.680 bowl or whatever inside and then you can smell something 1270 01:12:19.720 --> 01:12:22.720 that it's not there. So like again, I'm smelling the thing, 1271 01:12:22.760 --> 01:12:24.800 but it's not there. How can I say it's real? Well, 1272 01:12:25.279 --> 01:12:28.279 you're sensing it. So there's this para like kind of 1273 01:12:28.359 --> 01:12:31.239 digital sense that don't have, so it doesn't necessarily have 1274 01:12:31.359 --> 01:12:33.199 to be there or even like Wi Fi, all those 1275 01:12:33.239 --> 01:12:35.760 things like we're saying, they happen, they exist, so there's 1276 01:12:36.279 --> 01:12:39.600 and there's no point of saying no, they don't exist, 1277 01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:40.399 because it's there. 1278 01:12:40.720 --> 01:12:40.920 Yeah. 1279 01:12:41.000 --> 01:12:44.000 Yeah, but when you get into the old Tabernacle and 1280 01:12:44.079 --> 01:12:46.600 the traveling tint and they would burn the incense, I 1281 01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:49.239 mean the incense even in the oldest sext go back 1282 01:12:49.279 --> 01:12:51.720 to you know, the children of Noah and Adam and 1283 01:12:51.800 --> 01:12:55.319 Eve and the magi bringing the incense and so you 1284 01:12:55.560 --> 01:12:57.880 and then you know, you get into modern theater now 1285 01:12:57.920 --> 01:13:01.359 and you have technological advances where they're actually having theater 1286 01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:04.960 where they're spraying smells in your face to heighten the 1287 01:13:05.119 --> 01:13:08.720 level of the experience. So this is all ways that 1288 01:13:09.279 --> 01:13:14.279 ritual magic traditionally has precipitated these means, and now it's 1289 01:13:14.359 --> 01:13:19.039 being utilized by modern technology in different ways. 1290 01:13:21.319 --> 01:13:28.479 So much goes on that it's magical practice being technique 1291 01:13:28.479 --> 01:13:30.640 being used that people don't even realize. I mean, what 1292 01:13:30.760 --> 01:13:34.560 always makes me laugh is sure these production schitules and 1293 01:13:34.800 --> 01:13:42.159 logos for businesses and things. For sure, Mermaid is actually 1294 01:13:42.359 --> 01:13:47.800 you know, meloicing the I like it. 1295 01:13:47.880 --> 01:13:49.920 You brought that up. Yeah, It's always been a quite 1296 01:13:49.960 --> 01:13:53.840 obvious one, you know, especially when you start get into badge, 1297 01:13:53.920 --> 01:13:55.880 You're like, oh wow, these signals are everywhere. 1298 01:13:56.640 --> 01:14:01.520 Everywhere or even you know, people say, oh, I don't 1299 01:14:01.560 --> 01:14:04.640 believe in astrology, but then you go study marketing. They 1300 01:14:04.680 --> 01:14:08.520 have twelve archetypes and you can map pretty clearly one 1301 01:14:08.560 --> 01:14:12.079 of them to each of the uh like strategy times 1302 01:14:12.079 --> 01:14:14.560 and then it's like, okay, guess what you want. 1303 01:14:14.600 --> 01:14:18.239 I call them archetypes and that's cool, but it's there exist. 1304 01:14:23.840 --> 01:14:28.119 Yeah, yeah, before I before I started asking some more 1305 01:14:28.159 --> 01:14:30.680 stuff about your recent work, uh not to put you 1306 01:14:30.720 --> 01:14:32.680 on the spot, Arrows, was there anything you wanted to ask? 1307 01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:35.399 I know you haven't been been quiet, so I wasn't 1308 01:14:35.399 --> 01:14:37.279 sure if you're just like nervous about it or whatever. 1309 01:14:39.359 --> 01:14:43.399 I guess I'm just focused. I do have some questions, 1310 01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:48.359 what does your daily practice look like now? Like how 1311 01:14:48.520 --> 01:14:53.840 has your relationship to magic changed over the years, Like 1312 01:14:54.239 --> 01:14:59.920 did you used to do certain practices and they evolved 1313 01:15:00.319 --> 01:15:03.720 or you've realized you know, like we go through different 1314 01:15:03.800 --> 01:15:07.880 phases maybe sometimes where it's like I'm working with this 1315 01:15:08.159 --> 01:15:12.920 more and then you start working with something else more. 1316 01:15:13.119 --> 01:15:15.680 Like I just wonder how that journey has been. 1317 01:15:15.640 --> 01:15:15.920 For you. 1318 01:15:18.520 --> 01:15:21.560 These days. My daily practice is really simple. It's just 1319 01:15:21.720 --> 01:15:27.760 like meditational, energetic practice that I do, you know, I 1320 01:15:27.880 --> 01:15:32.640 have a two year nine month old daughter, so most 1321 01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:35.079 of my if she's in the house and away because 1322 01:15:35.079 --> 01:15:38.279 she's with me, she's very deadly focused, so that takes 1323 01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:43.600 a large chunk of my time. So then factoring in 1324 01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:47.079 the time when she's a sleepoort nursery, I have to 1325 01:15:47.159 --> 01:15:50.399 do my editing work and try and get writing done 1326 01:15:51.399 --> 01:15:54.439 a bit of time for my wife. So I don't 1327 01:15:54.479 --> 01:15:58.159 have a lot of time. Practice wise, if I need 1328 01:15:58.199 --> 01:16:01.000 to do stuff, then I will meet time. For example, 1329 01:16:03.479 --> 01:16:10.479 I quite often make solomonic pentacles for people, and so 1330 01:16:10.760 --> 01:16:13.520 that is going to need to be certain timings. You know, 1331 01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:15.279 it's going to have to be on the waxing moon. 1332 01:16:15.319 --> 01:16:17.880 It's going to do an appropriate day and how so 1333 01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:20.640 I've got to tell him that accordingly, and then likewise 1334 01:16:20.680 --> 01:16:27.439 the consecration times. I'm not doing so much conservation since 1335 01:16:27.479 --> 01:16:32.079 she was born because I don't have the time to 1336 01:16:32.199 --> 01:16:36.119 do a seven day purification prep or working with a 1337 01:16:36.199 --> 01:16:38.079 new spirit. So the stuff I've done has just been 1338 01:16:38.600 --> 01:16:43.000 with spirits I have familiarity with having worked before, but 1339 01:16:43.119 --> 01:16:45.600 I can get away with three days of purification or 1340 01:16:45.720 --> 01:16:47.399 with spirits I have packed with wore I don't need 1341 01:16:47.439 --> 01:16:50.000 to do any and I can just ask them because 1342 01:16:50.079 --> 01:16:52.000 I've been pacted with them for a very long time. 1343 01:16:52.520 --> 01:16:58.439 And that's kind of where my practice is at. I mean, 1344 01:16:58.479 --> 01:17:00.600 in the past when I started there turs a day 1345 01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:06.039 every day for the first seven years, and then it 1346 01:17:06.199 --> 01:17:11.760 became just trying different things out like I did. For example, 1347 01:17:12.600 --> 01:17:14.600 I was working through Crowding's Magic, so I did leave 1348 01:17:14.600 --> 01:17:17.000 a rashevelle helos for three months as a daily practice 1349 01:17:17.039 --> 01:17:19.239 where you do the ha durations of the sun at 1350 01:17:19.279 --> 01:17:22.880 the four quarters of the day, and actually doing the 1351 01:17:22.960 --> 01:17:26.159 librastarty from that as a moment practice has what really 1352 01:17:26.479 --> 01:17:28.840 got me into doing devotional stuff, and over the year 1353 01:17:28.840 --> 01:17:30.359 has been a lot of I mean to do three 1354 01:17:30.399 --> 01:17:37.800 months Shiva or you know, three months for Goddess mart 1355 01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:41.640 what have you. I did quite a lot of work 1356 01:17:41.760 --> 01:17:47.159 with Indian particularly Karli and Shiva, and my first wife 1357 01:17:47.840 --> 01:17:52.399 was half Indian and very into those sort of those derties, 1358 01:17:52.439 --> 01:17:53.920 so I ended up doing a lot of things with her. 1359 01:17:55.319 --> 01:17:59.279 And back then daily yoga was part of my practice, 1360 01:17:59.279 --> 01:18:02.119 for example, like half half an hour or so a 1361 01:18:02.239 --> 01:18:04.239 day of daily. Over these days, I do tai chi, 1362 01:18:05.720 --> 01:18:07.640 so I kind of see that as daily practice as well, 1363 01:18:07.640 --> 01:18:11.880 because that's energetic work, and you know, I love tai chi. 1364 01:18:12.119 --> 01:18:14.880 You know, it's that sort of energy flow it gives you. 1365 01:18:15.239 --> 01:18:18.039 It's really invigorating and helps. I think it's just with 1366 01:18:18.199 --> 01:18:20.439 general health as well. But to me, there's a very 1367 01:18:20.479 --> 01:18:23.520 spiritual component to this, being in yourself and in the 1368 01:18:23.600 --> 01:18:26.800 moment and the flow of tai chi. So that's really 1369 01:18:26.840 --> 01:18:31.119 where my practice has shifted, depending on circumstances a lot. 1370 01:18:31.880 --> 01:18:33.920 So I kind of hope that answers the question. But 1371 01:18:35.039 --> 01:18:38.079 in the past it was much more lots of lots 1372 01:18:38.079 --> 01:18:40.159 of daily stuff, lots lots of lots because I had 1373 01:18:40.199 --> 01:18:44.159 the time. You know, now that's sixty and with a 1374 01:18:44.239 --> 01:18:47.199 young child, I don't have time. So I just do 1375 01:18:47.359 --> 01:18:51.239 the simplest stuff that keeps it ticking over and then 1376 01:18:51.279 --> 01:18:54.600 when I need to or do something accordingly. 1377 01:18:55.920 --> 01:19:00.279 Do you ever find that some spirits are archetype are 1378 01:19:00.399 --> 01:19:05.159 harder for you to access than others, Like maybe you're 1379 01:19:05.399 --> 01:19:12.479 naturally you naturally connect to some easier than others. 1380 01:19:15.199 --> 01:19:18.199 There are some that I've never really some that I've 1381 01:19:18.199 --> 01:19:21.720 worked with far less than others, just I mean possibly 1382 01:19:21.760 --> 01:19:25.920 because of the circumstances not having needed to. For example, 1383 01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:31.640 I've never worked with Venusian spirits for myself, but I 1384 01:19:31.760 --> 01:19:35.880 have done work with Venusian spirits for other people, for 1385 01:19:36.119 --> 01:19:38.960 things like fertility for somebody wanting to have a child, 1386 01:19:39.800 --> 01:19:47.520 for example. I've not really work that much with Marshall spirits, 1387 01:19:48.039 --> 01:19:50.039 although I say that, but then I have a Marshall 1388 01:19:50.079 --> 01:19:53.439 spirit pacted to me that you know, offered their services 1389 01:19:53.680 --> 01:20:00.119 many years back, so I have one on tap, but 1390 01:20:00.239 --> 01:20:03.680 I don't really work with them that much. There are 1391 01:20:03.720 --> 01:20:07.319 some I think it has been by probably more by 1392 01:20:07.399 --> 01:20:14.800 affinity like that. I've worked mainly with solar, Jubytarian, mercurial, 1393 01:20:14.960 --> 01:20:19.520 and lunar spirits. Those are the four where and I 1394 01:20:19.600 --> 01:20:22.640 suppose after that would then come satur and then Mars 1395 01:20:22.720 --> 01:20:26.920 and Venus at the bottom. I mean, I'm a Leo 1396 01:20:27.279 --> 01:20:32.359 and I have a very balanced charting the sense of 1397 01:20:32.479 --> 01:20:36.720 equal equal elements, and it's very mercury have its strong 1398 01:20:36.800 --> 01:20:41.079 mercury influence in my chart. So the some mercury thing 1399 01:20:41.159 --> 01:20:44.279 isn't really a surprise. What kind of emily most. 1400 01:20:47.119 --> 01:20:49.800 So that's why you're drawn to the psychopomps. 1401 01:20:52.760 --> 01:20:59.000 Yes, it would make sense, but I do have a lot, 1402 01:20:59.359 --> 01:21:03.439 a lot of strong influence in my heart, very much. 1403 01:21:06.279 --> 01:21:08.279 David would you consider the issue This is a fall 1404 01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:11.199 up to Error's question, would you consider the issue to 1405 01:21:11.279 --> 01:21:14.760 have a mercurial sensibility or correspondence in your opinion? I 1406 01:21:14.840 --> 01:21:17.399 know there's a vast category of them, and they appear 1407 01:21:17.439 --> 01:21:20.319 at different places and all of that, But in general, 1408 01:21:20.399 --> 01:21:21.079 maybe you could. 1409 01:21:20.960 --> 01:21:25.000 Say, Oh, I think it's going to depend on the issue, 1410 01:21:26.199 --> 01:21:31.840 because I mean, that's every issue. You know. It's like 1411 01:21:32.039 --> 01:21:34.319 you can have, like a whole load of people have issue. 1412 01:21:35.039 --> 01:21:38.920 Every man is different. It's like a class of issues 1413 01:21:41.800 --> 01:21:45.359 share a lot of qualities. I think, certainly some of 1414 01:21:45.439 --> 01:21:48.880 the issues are very mercurial. I don't know if i'd 1415 01:21:48.920 --> 01:21:52.479 be able to say that they all were. Definitely some 1416 01:21:52.640 --> 01:21:55.439 issues I think are very mercurial in the same way 1417 01:21:55.479 --> 01:21:58.319 that you know some of the Papa Jura's are very venusian. 1418 01:22:02.039 --> 01:22:06.239 I have another question, what has been some of your 1419 01:22:06.359 --> 01:22:12.359 goals practicing magic? And maybe you've had multiple throughout the years. 1420 01:22:14.960 --> 01:22:16.039 Wow, that's a big one. 1421 01:22:17.359 --> 01:22:19.640 Yeah, sorry, person. 1422 01:22:19.840 --> 01:22:26.439 Actually, when I took my magic cloth at fourteen, I 1423 01:22:27.479 --> 01:22:29.920 about I was going to dedicate my life to the 1424 01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:36.399 pursuit of magic, and as time went by, I decided 1425 01:22:36.479 --> 01:22:41.880 that I wanted to try and propagate as much as 1426 01:22:41.960 --> 01:22:47.399 possible good practice to the best of my understanding and ability, 1427 01:22:50.439 --> 01:22:53.399 which then resulted in me running groups and writing books 1428 01:22:53.520 --> 01:22:57.960 and things. And I was very influenced by the idea 1429 01:22:57.960 --> 01:23:02.560 of magic as the great work. But it's the work 1430 01:23:02.640 --> 01:23:05.079 of making yourself. For me, it's the work of making 1431 01:23:05.119 --> 01:23:09.640 yourself and through yourself, humanity great. I see has been 1432 01:23:09.920 --> 01:23:12.800 some next evolutionary step. The next step has to be 1433 01:23:12.880 --> 01:23:15.880 a mental spiritual evolution for humanity. Physical is too slow, 1434 01:23:16.600 --> 01:23:20.640 and I mean so the proliferation of magic and encouraging 1435 01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:27.239 people to practice magic is the necessary goal. It's like 1436 01:23:27.319 --> 01:23:29.560 to evolve yourself and make yourself the best you can be, 1437 01:23:30.000 --> 01:23:32.520 and also do everything you can to encourage those around 1438 01:23:32.560 --> 01:23:34.600 you to emanate that to make as many other people 1439 01:23:34.640 --> 01:23:35.960 the best they can be as well. It's like one 1440 01:23:36.000 --> 01:23:40.000 hundred monkeys principle. You know, enough people need to rise 1441 01:23:40.399 --> 01:23:42.800 to take everybody else with them. So for me, that's 1442 01:23:42.880 --> 01:23:44.359 kind of the goal of magic, is to try and 1443 01:23:45.279 --> 01:23:50.199 evolve the whole of humanity to a more positive state. 1444 01:23:50.760 --> 01:23:56.520 And that's that's kind of been my ongoing thing really, 1445 01:23:56.720 --> 01:23:59.239 and I try to do my part to that boat. 1446 01:23:59.560 --> 01:24:01.039 As I say, putting it out what I think is 1447 01:24:01.199 --> 01:24:03.399 useful to the best of my ability at the time, 1448 01:24:04.760 --> 01:24:07.399 and updating it as I go if I've found new 1449 01:24:07.439 --> 01:24:10.600 and better ways, because you know, the practice I do 1450 01:24:10.760 --> 01:24:12.840 now is better than it was a year ago. We 1451 01:24:13.199 --> 01:24:17.279 always have to be flexible, and you know, if something's good, 1452 01:24:17.600 --> 01:24:20.239 that's wonderful, but if you can make it even better, 1453 01:24:20.600 --> 01:24:23.000 that's even more wonderful. You know, we always have to 1454 01:24:23.039 --> 01:24:26.600 be open to change and have that fluidity. And that's 1455 01:24:26.640 --> 01:24:29.199 something I've noticed with magicians would be practicing for decades, 1456 01:24:29.319 --> 01:24:31.359 is you might think they'd get really set in their ways, 1457 01:24:31.640 --> 01:24:33.640 but the ones I know actually become more fluid and 1458 01:24:33.800 --> 01:24:36.920 flexible in their ways as they get older because they 1459 01:24:37.039 --> 01:24:39.279 understand this and they always want to do the things 1460 01:24:39.359 --> 01:24:43.159 the best they can. So that's in my books with 1461 01:24:43.239 --> 01:24:46.520 Claver Spiritum, there's actually some changes in there from Clavers 1462 01:24:46.520 --> 01:24:49.359 and telity entiargm the previous book because the work that 1463 01:24:49.399 --> 01:24:51.239 I did afterwards and what I got from the spirit 1464 01:24:51.279 --> 01:24:53.479 sized working books like, well, that's really good, but you 1465 01:24:53.520 --> 01:24:54.920 can do this and have to make it even better. 1466 01:24:56.439 --> 01:24:59.600 So you know that the second book really builds on 1467 01:24:59.680 --> 01:25:02.319 the first. It supersedes a couple of bits of it, 1468 01:25:02.680 --> 01:25:05.920 but most of it is still still you know, totally 1469 01:25:06.479 --> 01:25:07.880 the way I would do it. There's just a couple 1470 01:25:07.880 --> 01:25:10.039 of changes, like I do it slightly. I do a 1471 01:25:10.039 --> 01:25:12.079 different magic circle now to the one I used to use, 1472 01:25:12.560 --> 01:25:19.520 for example. So yeah, magic some people, it's not a 1473 01:25:19.600 --> 01:25:22.159 popular attitude. But me, magic is a service path. It's 1474 01:25:22.159 --> 01:25:26.720 about trying to improve you know, a lot of humanity 1475 01:25:27.039 --> 01:25:30.600 as a collective, which is why for me, another really 1476 01:25:30.640 --> 01:25:35.239 good indicator of people's magical practice and development is the 1477 01:25:36.079 --> 01:25:39.640 level of compassion that you see in their lives, because 1478 01:25:40.199 --> 01:25:46.319 with that is absolutely essential demonstrator that people are really 1479 01:25:46.439 --> 01:25:49.399 understanding and living magic, because the more you do it, 1480 01:25:49.520 --> 01:25:54.000 the more compassion you have for everything, for life in 1481 01:25:54.119 --> 01:25:58.960 general and also for spirits including the dead. You know, 1482 01:25:59.039 --> 01:26:01.640 it's the understand I think of the interconnectedness of everything 1483 01:26:01.720 --> 01:26:06.880 that comes and the desire for that to or be progressing. 1484 01:26:08.199 --> 01:26:09.239 When I ask something to imagine. 1485 01:26:10.600 --> 01:26:13.640 Yes, sorry, Niica David, that's really interesting that you say 1486 01:26:13.720 --> 01:26:16.560 that about the sort of the increase of awareness of 1487 01:26:16.680 --> 01:26:20.560 the karma connections that we have to place and spirit 1488 01:26:20.760 --> 01:26:24.760 and also each other, especially if you consider, like in 1489 01:26:24.960 --> 01:26:28.840 contemporary Cabala, the hessetic framework, like the preference to has said, 1490 01:26:28.960 --> 01:26:33.399 like looking to infinite loving kindness obviously in Buddhism in general, 1491 01:26:33.520 --> 01:26:35.479 not just Tantra, but we do have this idea of 1492 01:26:35.560 --> 01:26:39.319 body cheetah framework. So it does seem like a I'm 1493 01:26:39.359 --> 01:26:41.199 not a perennialist. I'm an actualist, but I'm going to 1494 01:26:41.319 --> 01:26:44.079 use perennial It seems like a perennial idea that this 1495 01:26:45.479 --> 01:26:50.039 by sort of using magic alongside these kinds of more 1496 01:26:51.319 --> 01:26:53.880 we'll say, higher conscious ways of thinking or being in 1497 01:26:53.960 --> 01:26:58.479 the world, you actually become more aware of the karmic 1498 01:26:59.000 --> 01:27:02.479 implications of your your own life, yourself, your magical practice, 1499 01:27:02.640 --> 01:27:06.159 as well as your relationship to sort of like the 1500 01:27:06.239 --> 01:27:09.640 spirits of the land in place. Sorry, I know that 1501 01:27:09.800 --> 01:27:12.479 was more of a rampant in question, but I just 1502 01:27:12.680 --> 01:27:14.600 it's very profound that you say that, because it's something 1503 01:27:14.640 --> 01:27:17.039 that like I think about as well, and so to 1504 01:27:17.119 --> 01:27:19.880 hear someone else of your caliber say that, it just 1505 01:27:21.720 --> 01:27:24.920 makes you feel edified in that. Okay, we're all kind 1506 01:27:24.960 --> 01:27:26.199 of seeing the same conclusion. 1507 01:27:27.319 --> 01:27:29.760 Yeah, I mean, you become more sensitive to just the 1508 01:27:29.840 --> 01:27:33.920 whole subtle weap of things around you and how you 1509 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:36.800 can impact that even to the extensive, Like you know, 1510 01:27:36.920 --> 01:27:39.399 the words that you say, you know, the grid was 1511 01:27:39.399 --> 01:27:42.039 a very big example of not swearing, because it's like 1512 01:27:42.119 --> 01:27:49.359 not prevailing your breath, and that's you know, it can 1513 01:27:49.399 --> 01:27:50.960 be hard. Let's say somebody cuts you up in the car, 1514 01:27:51.079 --> 01:27:57.399 can we hear not to swear at them? It's a 1515 01:27:57.439 --> 01:28:00.359 good example of just even the little things, we need 1516 01:28:00.439 --> 01:28:02.319 to be aware of the impact of the little things 1517 01:28:02.359 --> 01:28:05.640 that we do. So, yeah, I totally agree. 1518 01:28:06.560 --> 01:28:10.359 And on how subtle of a level can we interact 1519 01:28:10.439 --> 01:28:16.800 and react in order to encourage the betterment, like minimum input, 1520 01:28:17.359 --> 01:28:25.319 maximum output holistically, Yeah, I like that mid input maximum 1521 01:28:28.479 --> 01:28:29.279 still with intent. 1522 01:28:30.520 --> 01:28:36.800 Yeah, dude, if you don't mind, I mean, I know 1523 01:28:36.880 --> 01:28:38.720 we've been going on for a while, but maybe if 1524 01:28:38.720 --> 01:28:40.720 you don't mind spending, will just spend a few minutes 1525 01:28:40.720 --> 01:28:46.119 at least. Uh, your last two books, what was the reasoning? 1526 01:28:46.399 --> 01:28:46.560 You know? 1527 01:28:46.600 --> 01:28:48.159 Almost kind of like I guess what I was asking 1528 01:28:48.199 --> 01:28:52.600 you earlier about the planetary and element elemental magic? What 1529 01:28:52.800 --> 01:28:54.760 is it about? Like what made you put these books out? 1530 01:28:54.800 --> 01:28:56.159 Like what do you think you have to offer on 1531 01:28:56.279 --> 01:28:58.000 that that isn't out there now? 1532 01:28:59.439 --> 01:29:05.439 Okay? Where after I'd written the Grim World Cyclopedia, Steven 1533 01:29:05.479 --> 01:29:09.439 Skinner and I were asked to do at presentations for 1534 01:29:09.560 --> 01:29:11.840 this Italian group, the self of Society. I've got quite 1535 01:29:11.840 --> 01:29:16.079 a few lectures and things for them now said we're 1536 01:29:16.079 --> 01:29:18.840 going to be doing this weekend and you know we 1537 01:29:18.920 --> 01:29:20.800 want to do conjuration at it. We want to get 1538 01:29:20.880 --> 01:29:26.159 everyone in groups to do conjuration. And I what can 1539 01:29:26.239 --> 01:29:30.279 you guys help? So Stephen I talked and we said 1540 01:29:30.279 --> 01:29:32.439 we think we should do the intelligences as a good starter. 1541 01:29:32.920 --> 01:29:34.039 You know what days are going to go. It's going 1542 01:29:34.079 --> 01:29:35.600 to be on a Sunday, great, and work with solo 1543 01:29:35.640 --> 01:29:40.439 intelligence netkil Scene said, okay, I'll do the fear, you 1544 01:29:40.560 --> 01:29:43.760 do the practice. So so so fine, and he went 1545 01:29:43.840 --> 01:29:45.800 before me, and then I was doing so I start 1546 01:29:45.880 --> 01:29:47.920 preparing stuff and then I read a review that Jason 1547 01:29:48.000 --> 01:29:51.159 Miller wrote about my book Primal Encyclopedia, and he made 1548 01:29:51.199 --> 01:29:54.000 a comment about my chapter or practice as I put 1549 01:29:54.039 --> 01:29:55.920 in there, and said this is a voice that we 1550 01:29:56.000 --> 01:29:59.039 don't hear often enough ranking the contract and they got 1551 01:29:59.079 --> 01:30:03.159 me thinking I should write more practical stuff. And then 1552 01:30:03.199 --> 01:30:05.479 I thought, I did this booklet fears back on the 1553 01:30:05.520 --> 01:30:09.239 conjurations and the planet for intelligences from an old sort 1554 01:30:09.239 --> 01:30:11.840 of text. But I just gave the intelligence and I've 1555 01:30:11.880 --> 01:30:14.760 been saying to people for years and years, intelligences are 1556 01:30:14.760 --> 01:30:17.800 a great place to start now for myself. But hang on, 1557 01:30:18.119 --> 01:30:20.840 I'm putting the stuff together now to explain to people 1558 01:30:20.880 --> 01:30:23.319 how to do it. And there's nowhere out there that 1559 01:30:23.439 --> 01:30:25.800 tells you. It's just there's the conjuration without telling you 1560 01:30:25.840 --> 01:30:29.359 what circle should do, is what tools, et cetera, et cetera. 1561 01:30:31.399 --> 01:30:34.039 I need to write a book that's like a complete manual, 1562 01:30:34.159 --> 01:30:38.760 because virtually none of the grim Wars are complete manuals. 1563 01:30:38.760 --> 01:30:42.159 They're like piecemeal. They're like bits that the person wanted 1564 01:30:42.239 --> 01:30:45.399 to record. I need to record the spirit catalog, or 1565 01:30:45.439 --> 01:30:48.079 I want to record these magic circles or these conjurations. 1566 01:30:48.520 --> 01:30:51.199 They're not complete, then there's lots of stuff missing. You 1567 01:30:51.319 --> 01:30:54.960 can never assume that a grim War, part of someone 1568 01:30:54.960 --> 01:30:57.239 that's sum a sacred magic a which eight hundred page 1569 01:30:57.279 --> 01:30:59.319 is huge, and it's his whole system were oven together, 1570 01:31:01.640 --> 01:31:04.079 is a complete practice, you know, Like I see people saying, oh, 1571 01:31:04.119 --> 01:31:06.880 the ARB tells the easiest because you don't need tools. No, 1572 01:31:07.039 --> 01:31:09.359 just because it doesn't say the tools are there, it 1573 01:31:09.439 --> 01:31:12.119 doesn't mean you don't do it. It's taken as read 1574 01:31:12.199 --> 01:31:14.439 that you would use no to use those tools, so know, 1575 01:31:14.560 --> 01:31:17.479 to have a magic circle of al you know, it's 1576 01:31:17.520 --> 01:31:21.199 not they're implied if that would be known to the 1577 01:31:21.279 --> 01:31:25.920 person reading it. So I thought, well, people are coming 1578 01:31:25.960 --> 01:31:28.000 to it, it's not going to be known. So I 1579 01:31:28.079 --> 01:31:31.000 need to put together everything that you would need to 1580 01:31:31.039 --> 01:31:34.239 know someone who's coming who's never worked a conduration, and 1581 01:31:34.640 --> 01:31:37.439 everything in this book and clavers, intelity and tim that 1582 01:31:37.640 --> 01:31:40.520 you need to know. So all about the timings that 1583 01:31:40.640 --> 01:31:43.439 all the consecrations is what you need to have, How 1584 01:31:43.560 --> 01:31:46.399 you consecrate it, when you consecrate it, what you need 1585 01:31:46.479 --> 01:31:49.359 to do in the build up time, how you deal 1586 01:31:49.399 --> 01:31:52.399 with the purification, adding in the things that are modern 1587 01:31:53.000 --> 01:31:56.279 as well being relevant. So in those days, obviously there 1588 01:31:56.359 --> 01:31:58.560 was no internet and stuff. So now as well as 1589 01:31:58.640 --> 01:32:01.479 you're passing having I call the electronic fast, you know 1590 01:32:01.600 --> 01:32:04.039 that you don't go online, you don't do gaming, you 1591 01:32:04.079 --> 01:32:06.520 don't do TikTok or YouTube or anything during that time 1592 01:32:06.560 --> 01:32:10.560 because you're keeping your mind focused on the conjuration, giving 1593 01:32:10.600 --> 01:32:13.600 the whole actual sequence of the conjuration with description of 1594 01:32:13.600 --> 01:32:16.760 what's going on, putting it all together in one manual 1595 01:32:17.479 --> 01:32:20.159 for people. Because there's nothing really like that that I 1596 01:32:20.279 --> 01:32:23.479 was aware of. So that was what inspired me to 1597 01:32:23.560 --> 01:32:25.960 put cloths into our gentower room. And then as soon 1598 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:29.159 as I've finished and sent it off to Hadium, you know, 1599 01:32:29.279 --> 01:32:35.359 to the publishers, hoor right, then I get because spirits 1600 01:32:35.399 --> 01:32:37.720 don't keep office hours or plantry hours, they'll contact you 1601 01:32:37.800 --> 01:32:44.520 whenever they want. That's good job. But now you need 1602 01:32:44.560 --> 01:32:48.000 to do more. You know this book you wrote, Yeah, 1603 01:32:48.039 --> 01:32:49.640 that's going to be a trilogy. It's going to be 1604 01:32:49.680 --> 01:32:53.800 three of them. Okay, right, you need to look at 1605 01:32:53.800 --> 01:32:57.159 this and this. So then I got nudged about the 1606 01:32:57.239 --> 01:32:59.680 winds and the shakina and started going down the rabbit 1607 01:32:59.680 --> 01:33:04.439 holes those and doing the practices and so then that 1608 01:33:04.520 --> 01:33:09.920 sort of turned into claver Spiritum and ways to enhance 1609 01:33:10.000 --> 01:33:12.960 the practice. So it's like it builds on once in 1610 01:33:13.000 --> 01:33:16.520 Clovis Inteurgentar. And by adding in the winds and shakina 1611 01:33:18.039 --> 01:33:20.359 and adding in a few extra bits that didn't go in, 1612 01:33:21.399 --> 01:33:26.039 I could have put a consecrations for example, boots, and 1613 01:33:26.279 --> 01:33:32.119 mentioned found out that does talking some grims about wearing underwear, 1614 01:33:32.119 --> 01:33:34.359 because I've always just started I robe with nothing under it, 1615 01:33:35.960 --> 01:33:39.319 but no, if you you can actually have consecrated underwear 1616 01:33:39.399 --> 01:33:42.359 and other stuff under there, particularly if you're outdoors in 1617 01:33:42.359 --> 01:33:45.159 the cold. Nice to know, you know, anything thermal long 1618 01:33:45.239 --> 01:33:48.760 John's consecrate them, you can wear them. So just it's 1619 01:33:49.079 --> 01:33:51.560 that thing of just trying to build on all the 1620 01:33:51.640 --> 01:33:54.600 experience I have over the decades of you know, forty 1621 01:33:54.640 --> 01:33:58.399 four years of conjuration and all the little handy hints 1622 01:33:58.439 --> 01:34:02.319 and things or any mistakes that I've made. I'm trying 1623 01:34:02.359 --> 01:34:05.000 to put all that information in for people so that 1624 01:34:05.119 --> 01:34:09.119 they've got my template that has worked for me, which 1625 01:34:09.159 --> 01:34:12.399 they can use as much or as little of as 1626 01:34:12.520 --> 01:34:15.760 they want, with me explaining why everything is done, how 1627 01:34:15.800 --> 01:34:19.600 it's done, etc. That was what inspired me to do 1628 01:34:19.760 --> 01:34:23.079 the Club's books, and there will be a third one 1629 01:34:23.119 --> 01:34:25.920 in a couple of years, two or three years, but 1630 01:34:26.000 --> 01:34:30.239 I've got other books after write first. But yeah, it 1631 01:34:30.359 --> 01:34:36.119 was to put out a nuts and bolts manual of 1632 01:34:36.159 --> 01:34:38.960 everything that you need to know for doing counturation. Focus 1633 01:34:39.119 --> 01:34:41.800 in the first book entirely on the intelligence. Is the 1634 01:34:41.920 --> 01:34:44.199 second one. I give the conjurations for the Olympic Spirits 1635 01:34:44.239 --> 01:34:46.600 and the demon Bishops. I put the demon Bishops in 1636 01:34:46.600 --> 01:34:48.720 because they've not been worked with much. They're really interesting 1637 01:34:48.800 --> 01:34:51.560 and they're specifically attributed to the four elements, one demon 1638 01:34:51.600 --> 01:34:55.039 to bishop, to each alban and so I wanted to 1639 01:34:55.079 --> 01:34:56.880 bring more of that in as well, because of the 1640 01:34:57.960 --> 01:35:01.279 lack of attention to the elements what tedition, which was 1641 01:35:01.359 --> 01:35:03.800 something I feel needs to be a bit more bought. 1642 01:35:03.840 --> 01:35:05.640 Because there's a huge amount of planetary stuff in the 1643 01:35:05.640 --> 01:35:08.640 grim Was, but you don't see that much elemental because 1644 01:35:08.640 --> 01:35:11.119 the elemental stuff is the foundations that even the planets 1645 01:35:11.119 --> 01:35:14.520 are built on. I wanted to bring a bit more 1646 01:35:14.560 --> 01:35:19.239 of the elemental aspect into in that second one in 1647 01:35:19.279 --> 01:35:24.319 Clave Spiritum. So that's kind of what inspired me to 1648 01:35:24.439 --> 01:35:28.560 do that, and adding in all sorts of really interesting stuff. 1649 01:35:29.000 --> 01:35:32.720 You know, the things that I've developed aren't written in 1650 01:35:32.800 --> 01:35:35.359 the grim Was, but I found work really well, like 1651 01:35:35.439 --> 01:35:37.920 the amount of visualization I brought in for the consecrations 1652 01:35:37.960 --> 01:35:41.159 and stuff. And interestingly, I did find the reference in 1653 01:35:41.279 --> 01:35:43.800 Simicycramantic came one of the bits hasn't been published yet, 1654 01:35:44.479 --> 01:35:47.840 which kind of hints at that they might have been 1655 01:35:47.920 --> 01:35:56.479 using visualization. So maybe I'm not that's I'm not saying 1656 01:35:56.960 --> 01:36:00.279 this is definite, but it's possible that again, so I'm 1657 01:36:00.279 --> 01:36:03.359 bringing back something that was a part of it. That's 1658 01:36:03.439 --> 01:36:05.680 just really not been written about. I don't know. But 1659 01:36:05.960 --> 01:36:08.840 either way, if you've got effective tools that mesh well 1660 01:36:08.920 --> 01:36:11.239 with what you've got, why not use them but enhance 1661 01:36:11.319 --> 01:36:16.439 your practice? And so you know, for me, visualization is 1662 01:36:16.560 --> 01:36:20.600 very much something that does add to that. So you know, 1663 01:36:20.680 --> 01:36:22.840 I put it all in explained it where everything comes from, 1664 01:36:22.880 --> 01:36:25.119 which grim was, the bits I've merged into a template, 1665 01:36:25.199 --> 01:36:27.720 or which bits I have created based on my experience. 1666 01:36:29.159 --> 01:36:32.279 Is also full of lots of thanks to other people 1667 01:36:32.359 --> 01:36:36.159 whose practices have inspired or encouraged me, or I've taken 1668 01:36:36.239 --> 01:36:39.720 bits from. I always credit people because that's all the 1669 01:36:39.760 --> 01:36:41.319 things I love in the grimworld. Addition, is there so 1670 01:36:41.439 --> 01:36:45.199 much positivity and people build on each other's work and 1671 01:36:45.399 --> 01:36:48.560 acknowledge each other's work rather than you know, like the 1672 01:36:48.600 --> 01:36:51.640 whole it's all about me. Think, No, we're all benefiting. 1673 01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:54.079 Somebody else does good work, we all benefit from it, 1674 01:36:54.560 --> 01:36:56.840 and that's how it should be. In magic, you know 1675 01:36:57.000 --> 01:37:00.680 that we benefit from what other people do. We're not 1676 01:37:00.800 --> 01:37:03.159 here to tear anyone down. We're not in competition with anybody. 1677 01:37:03.159 --> 01:37:06.760 We're all just trying to you know, rise and evolve. 1678 01:37:10.560 --> 01:37:11.920 I like how you had mentioned I guess like the 1679 01:37:12.039 --> 01:37:15.520 orbital before you were like saying like, I guess people 1680 01:37:15.560 --> 01:37:16.920 thought like I don't need anything for this. 1681 01:37:17.239 --> 01:37:17.359 Uh. 1682 01:37:18.439 --> 01:37:21.239 You know, I when I was doing a lot of 1683 01:37:21.319 --> 01:37:24.199 ritual work, I would typically work with like Egyptian deities, 1684 01:37:25.079 --> 01:37:28.279 and I would normally attribute them to like either planetary 1685 01:37:28.319 --> 01:37:30.439 magic when working with them, or the cabalistic you know, 1686 01:37:30.600 --> 01:37:33.359 the spheres and like on the tree. And when I 1687 01:37:33.479 --> 01:37:36.359 came across the arbitel and start, I worked. 1688 01:37:36.119 --> 01:37:36.720 With it for a bit. 1689 01:37:37.680 --> 01:37:40.039 I just assumed that it was to be brought over 1690 01:37:40.479 --> 01:37:44.000 to now instead of Hathorm invoking Hageth or whatever. I 1691 01:37:44.079 --> 01:37:46.279 think that might be the right one for Venus. I 1692 01:37:46.399 --> 01:37:47.720 just thought it was kind of switching over, but I 1693 01:37:47.760 --> 01:37:50.079 thought I still needed all that other stuff friar. I 1694 01:37:50.199 --> 01:37:51.880 never looked at it as like, oh, I just you know, 1695 01:37:51.920 --> 01:37:53.439 I guess we're gonna sit here and do a mantra 1696 01:37:53.520 --> 01:37:55.840 and that's it. Like I just thought it was it's 1697 01:37:55.920 --> 01:37:57.279 kind of funny had you said that. I just never 1698 01:37:57.319 --> 01:37:58.680 even looked at it being that basic. 1699 01:38:00.640 --> 01:38:03.399 But a lot of people, young people coming in now 1700 01:38:03.439 --> 01:38:08.279 the generation seemed then it's not written, it's not there. 1701 01:38:08.840 --> 01:38:14.520 Yes, what uh? When you were mentioning stuff with the 1702 01:38:14.800 --> 01:38:17.520 grim war work, before and you're saying like maybe stuff 1703 01:38:17.640 --> 01:38:21.760 left out. Obviously, maybe certain practices wouldn't be in there 1704 01:38:21.760 --> 01:38:24.359 because they didn't exist prior. There's a different type of 1705 01:38:25.479 --> 01:38:29.439 maybe school of thought. But like if you had if 1706 01:38:29.479 --> 01:38:31.920 somebody was doing grim war work, and let's say part 1707 01:38:31.920 --> 01:38:34.239 of their daily practice was doing certain breath work and 1708 01:38:34.319 --> 01:38:37.359 maybe chocraate work or meditation, would you say that's an 1709 01:38:37.399 --> 01:38:39.680 okay thing to like bring into the ritual to work 1710 01:38:39.720 --> 01:38:43.479 in or no, because it's not in there. Something as 1711 01:38:43.560 --> 01:38:45.520 basic as that. I'm not just saying like adding actually 1712 01:38:45.560 --> 01:38:48.359 extra words are totally different ritual, but like breath work, 1713 01:38:48.479 --> 01:38:50.840 visualization and breathe, you know, meditation. 1714 01:38:51.640 --> 01:38:55.000 I would I would say absolutely. I actually say that 1715 01:38:55.119 --> 01:38:57.840 if someone particularly if there's more than one of you, 1716 01:38:58.640 --> 01:39:00.880 if you've got somebody in the scribe, or if you're 1717 01:39:00.920 --> 01:39:06.760 doing it solo, a brief little meditational visualization thing before 1718 01:39:06.800 --> 01:39:11.760 engaging with the spirit is a very beneficial thing to 1719 01:39:11.880 --> 01:39:16.520 have in there. And also, you know, before you do 1720 01:39:16.680 --> 01:39:19.560 the conjuration, if energetic work, so you're just feeling in 1721 01:39:19.600 --> 01:39:23.520 the most balanced you can be. Absolutely, you know, why 1722 01:39:23.560 --> 01:39:24.039 wouldn't you. 1723 01:39:25.760 --> 01:39:31.199 Nice anybody have any questions or comments. 1724 01:39:30.960 --> 01:39:34.239 Or anything, I'll do one last one. Okay, I'm sorry guys, 1725 01:39:34.920 --> 01:39:38.680 Thank you Nick, and thank you David. So I have 1726 01:39:38.840 --> 01:39:41.239 so many, honestly, David written, but I'll have to wait 1727 01:39:41.319 --> 01:39:44.239 until the next time. But I think I want to 1728 01:39:44.279 --> 01:39:46.920 talk about something you just brought up, like the prevalence 1729 01:39:47.000 --> 01:39:50.000 of Sola scripture, sort of that framework of looking at 1730 01:39:50.039 --> 01:39:52.479 things very shallowly as the text is the text and 1731 01:39:52.600 --> 01:39:55.760 it means what it means, and also what you have 1732 01:39:55.920 --> 01:39:59.760 called I think anglocentric in past interviews. I sort of 1733 01:40:00.279 --> 01:40:03.600 appraisal of the Wisdom text through that sort of more 1734 01:40:03.840 --> 01:40:07.439 maybe Protestant or Anglican lens and saying, okay, it begins 1735 01:40:07.479 --> 01:40:10.760 and ends here, but now it's become more expansive. In 1736 01:40:10.800 --> 01:40:14.800 Buddhist studies, we call it Protestant presupposition, this idea that 1737 01:40:14.880 --> 01:40:17.359 you can only read the Wisdom texts as they are, 1738 01:40:18.000 --> 01:40:21.960 rather than acknowledge the inner outer secret or tikini language 1739 01:40:22.039 --> 01:40:25.520 or the various other sort of commentaries and metaphysics that 1740 01:40:25.680 --> 01:40:28.640 actually are deeply involved in it. Would you say that 1741 01:40:28.760 --> 01:40:32.920 that is also how we should try and appraise or 1742 01:40:33.079 --> 01:40:37.119 read Western wisdom sciences through this more broad lens of 1743 01:40:37.199 --> 01:40:40.520 looking at deeper and secret meanings and I know this 1744 01:40:40.680 --> 01:40:44.199 ties in with your ideas of blinds and how much 1745 01:40:44.720 --> 01:40:47.800 certain authors put in or don't put in, or may 1746 01:40:47.880 --> 01:40:51.000 mislead you into certain conclusions or understandings. 1747 01:40:52.560 --> 01:40:56.760 Absolutely. I mean if I hadn't been looking at the 1748 01:40:56.840 --> 01:40:59.880 phrasing and how you can mean it with the Stikina stuff, 1749 01:41:00.279 --> 01:41:02.079 it wouldn't have hit me and I got here we 1750 01:41:02.119 --> 01:41:04.479 are we talking about, you know, a circle of fire 1751 01:41:05.119 --> 01:41:08.199 around the throne, which is classic Shakina imagery, or here 1752 01:41:08.239 --> 01:41:11.119 we're talking about, you know, wisdom being feminine again. You 1753 01:41:11.239 --> 01:41:16.000 have Shaquina. There's all these things. I'm going that's Shaquina, 1754 01:41:16.039 --> 01:41:18.880 that's Chequina, that's you Keen. The first breath, that's just Shaquina, 1755 01:41:18.920 --> 01:41:22.119 the first breath in Adam. And it's just like the same. 1756 01:41:23.479 --> 01:41:27.880 The epithets and titles and all these things have a reason, 1757 01:41:28.479 --> 01:41:32.239 you know, because they they're like simple layers. They open 1758 01:41:32.279 --> 01:41:35.880 stuff up for us, and it's so important. They say, 1759 01:41:35.960 --> 01:41:38.880 like we know, with these texts, not just read it 1760 01:41:38.880 --> 01:41:43.239 at surface level. I mean, sure you'll get something out 1761 01:41:43.279 --> 01:41:47.239 of it surface level, but when you start looking beyond that, 1762 01:41:47.560 --> 01:41:49.680 then it's like that's where you're going to find the goal. 1763 01:41:49.880 --> 01:41:52.279 So that's where you're going to like, you know, the 1764 01:41:52.399 --> 01:41:56.399 wealth that's going to sort of give you those insights. 1765 01:41:56.439 --> 01:41:58.000 So it's flashes and sparks. 1766 01:41:57.680 --> 01:41:58.399 Of ah. 1767 01:42:00.359 --> 01:42:04.600 That then help you move on your way. So yeah, 1768 01:42:05.000 --> 01:42:08.880 I totally think that people do need to read them 1769 01:42:09.119 --> 01:42:17.479 with that sort of level of perception too. Meditating on 1770 01:42:17.840 --> 01:42:20.319 books on the places, I think it's a great way 1771 01:42:20.359 --> 01:42:21.960 to do it. It's like, you know, to read like 1772 01:42:22.039 --> 01:42:24.439 a paragraph in a book like that and then meditate 1773 01:42:24.720 --> 01:42:27.279 and see what comes to you. Let you when really 1774 01:42:27.439 --> 01:42:29.359 play with it and process it, you know, look just 1775 01:42:30.359 --> 01:42:32.239 zoom through a chapter and think you're going to gain 1776 01:42:32.760 --> 01:42:36.279 lots of insight. You know. It's when I was actually 1777 01:42:37.880 --> 01:42:41.399 meditating that it suddenly hit me, hang on, it's like 1778 01:42:41.479 --> 01:42:43.159 coming in my mind because I was doing like you know, 1779 01:42:43.239 --> 01:42:48.520 plat void empty and seeing what came with it was empty, 1780 01:42:48.880 --> 01:42:50.880 and then it was like that phrase popped in and 1781 01:42:50.960 --> 01:42:53.159 that phase dropped in, and I'm seeing a pattern here, 1782 01:42:54.079 --> 01:42:56.119 and then I would have picked them and looking them 1783 01:42:56.359 --> 01:42:59.479 yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing that pattern because I'm 1784 01:42:59.520 --> 01:43:03.680 being product to see that pattern or I'm inspiring myself 1785 01:43:03.840 --> 01:43:10.159 or whatever it might be that we we have to Yeah, 1786 01:43:10.359 --> 01:43:12.439 so much of back to that think, you know, only 1787 01:43:12.479 --> 01:43:15.159 a seventieth light spectrum is visible to us, So much 1788 01:43:15.159 --> 01:43:18.279 of the spectrum is invisible. But we can be aware 1789 01:43:18.359 --> 01:43:20.079 of it, we can feel it, we can sense it, 1790 01:43:20.800 --> 01:43:22.880 and we have to apply that. I think when we're 1791 01:43:23.800 --> 01:43:28.920 when we're reading, Yeah, we're only getting the top of 1792 01:43:28.960 --> 01:43:32.479 the spectrum when we just read it in that normal way. 1793 01:43:32.600 --> 01:43:36.840 We have to digest it and sort and see what 1794 01:43:36.920 --> 01:43:37.840 else we can get from it. 1795 01:43:39.640 --> 01:43:41.800 And I think also when you get into that, it's 1796 01:43:41.880 --> 01:43:44.000 those with guys to see in. Those are ears to hear. 1797 01:43:44.159 --> 01:43:46.560 As you're going through this information through the course of 1798 01:43:46.640 --> 01:43:49.760 your lifetime, you're learning more and more and gaining a 1799 01:43:49.880 --> 01:43:53.479 deeper sense of what these realities are. And as you 1800 01:43:53.640 --> 01:43:56.720 do that, your sense of reality becomes deeper and deeper 1801 01:43:56.800 --> 01:44:01.520 and deeper than you know as you gain wisdom, which is. 1802 01:44:01.520 --> 01:44:03.640 One of the arguments for going back and rereading books 1803 01:44:03.680 --> 01:44:05.720 that made an impact on you, because you get so 1804 01:44:05.880 --> 01:44:08.520 much more from them next time round. Again, Oh, I 1805 01:44:08.560 --> 01:44:09.199 didn't realize that. 1806 01:44:09.439 --> 01:44:17.399 Oh well, God, yes, thank you very much. Did anybody 1807 01:44:17.399 --> 01:44:22.560 else have any questions before we start to wrap it up? David, 1808 01:44:22.680 --> 01:44:24.680 was there anything that you would like to say or 1809 01:44:24.880 --> 01:44:27.960 anything about your stuff before we close it up here. 1810 01:44:28.239 --> 01:44:28.960 Maybe we didn't get to. 1811 01:44:30.359 --> 01:44:33.640 Oh, I've just really been enjoying the conversation seeing where 1812 01:44:33.640 --> 01:44:37.640 it flowed. It's been great. We don't I've already mentioned 1813 01:44:37.680 --> 01:44:44.720 about this stuff I'm doing. I do an online conjuration 1814 01:44:44.840 --> 01:44:47.640 course which is six consecutives Sundays I run twice a year. 1815 01:44:47.920 --> 01:44:50.119 It's currently running at the moment, it's halfway through, so 1816 01:44:51.479 --> 01:44:55.640 the next one will be in probably around May or 1817 01:44:55.720 --> 01:45:00.199 May time, so if people are interested, that goes up 1818 01:45:00.239 --> 01:45:04.159 on Hadian, goes through Haydian, and I always like advertise 1819 01:45:05.720 --> 01:45:07.720 that's sort of each time has sort of grown a 1820 01:45:07.760 --> 01:45:10.439 little bit from the sense of any new insights or things. 1821 01:45:10.479 --> 01:45:12.680 Like the first run of it was about all the 1822 01:45:12.840 --> 01:45:15.039 turf clubs Intelligent Tower, but now it has all the 1823 01:45:15.159 --> 01:45:17.680 Tearful class as Spirit them as well. One of the 1824 01:45:17.720 --> 01:45:21.079 two books I'm currently working on is another practical grim 1825 01:45:21.119 --> 01:45:24.000 War book, so by the end of next year or 1826 01:45:24.039 --> 01:45:29.880 probably that will probably get incorporated as well. So yeah, 1827 01:45:30.000 --> 01:45:34.439 I mean, I I'm just really excited with the the 1828 01:45:34.560 --> 01:45:36.479 research and stuff I'm doing the Monks. I'm also doing 1829 01:45:36.520 --> 01:45:39.119 like a research grim War book that's going to push 1830 01:45:39.159 --> 01:45:42.600 a few things back and reveal some more bits that 1831 01:45:43.199 --> 01:45:47.079 weren't known before. So that's some fun rabbit holes of 1832 01:45:47.199 --> 01:45:48.000 going down as well. 1833 01:45:49.199 --> 01:45:51.399 Awesome. Uh, do you want to let everybody know where 1834 01:45:51.399 --> 01:45:53.680 they can like find you online or get in contact 1835 01:45:53.720 --> 01:45:54.239 with you or whatever. 1836 01:45:54.720 --> 01:45:59.720 I mean. My my website is the very unoriginable David 1837 01:45:59.800 --> 01:46:03.840 Rank dot com. So it's an easy way to contact 1838 01:46:03.880 --> 01:46:06.199 me as a message through the website if people want to. 1839 01:46:07.680 --> 01:46:09.720 I try and reply within a day or two to 1840 01:46:09.840 --> 01:46:12.199 people with the message week I do get a lot 1841 01:46:12.239 --> 01:46:19.199 of people contact me through that. From there, I'm happy 1842 01:46:19.279 --> 01:46:21.560 to chat to people. Is It's been very fruitful for me, 1843 01:46:23.079 --> 01:46:26.520 you know some of the I love getting questions that 1844 01:46:26.720 --> 01:46:28.319 make me think about stuff, you know. Like one of 1845 01:46:28.399 --> 01:46:33.319 the things that pushed me in one of the chaps 1846 01:46:33.319 --> 01:46:38.760 I wrote in Clive Spirit and was about eighteen months ago, 1847 01:46:39.920 --> 01:46:42.680 a guy messaged me and said, I'm in a wheelchair, 1848 01:46:42.840 --> 01:46:44.600 I have my ald Serrubral Pulsey. I'm about to do 1849 01:46:44.800 --> 01:46:48.000 my first poetic conjuration. I've got a couple of assistants. 1850 01:46:48.920 --> 01:46:51.520 Can you any recommendations you have made for how to 1851 01:46:51.600 --> 01:46:55.680 amend the ritual to for me? So I wrote them 1852 01:46:55.720 --> 01:46:59.399 a long email of suggestions of things ways he might 1853 01:47:00.159 --> 01:47:02.079 rate it and say, maybe the person could do this 1854 01:47:02.199 --> 01:47:04.279 bit and you don't have to earn, but you should 1855 01:47:04.520 --> 01:47:06.439 be doing as much of it as you can still. 1856 01:47:07.880 --> 01:47:10.239 And that made me think I need to put a 1857 01:47:10.319 --> 01:47:14.159 chapter in the book about conjuring with physical or sensory impairment, 1858 01:47:14.319 --> 01:47:19.239 and that needs to be highlighted because it's something that 1859 01:47:19.279 --> 01:47:21.119 gets talked about a little bit, but not nearly enough. 1860 01:47:21.199 --> 01:47:23.399 You know, It's kind of becomes like an invisible thing 1861 01:47:23.479 --> 01:47:26.079 that's unconscious by us because most of us don't have 1862 01:47:26.239 --> 01:47:30.560 those issues ourselves. We don't think about being inclusive to 1863 01:47:30.600 --> 01:47:36.840 people who do. And so that that email has resulted, 1864 01:47:36.920 --> 01:47:39.920 like in the whole exchange between us and me writing 1865 01:47:39.960 --> 01:47:42.319 a bit from the book, and I contacted cratively who 1866 01:47:43.119 --> 01:47:45.600 you know who's done a lot of talks about work 1867 01:47:45.680 --> 01:47:49.239 with physical disability, and asks him to read through it 1868 01:47:49.319 --> 01:47:54.560 to make sure that I wasn't being at all offensive 1869 01:47:54.760 --> 01:47:56.640 or inappropriate in the worst phrase, and things. I was 1870 01:47:56.720 --> 01:48:02.239 getting things over in a good manner. And that's just 1871 01:48:02.720 --> 01:48:04.359 one example. I have a lot of people write and 1872 01:48:05.600 --> 01:48:07.600 you get that thing. It's always a two way thing. 1873 01:48:07.640 --> 01:48:09.960 It's like with the classes, you know, I always come 1874 01:48:09.960 --> 01:48:14.039 away with like new ideas and insights from the things 1875 01:48:14.079 --> 01:48:18.600 that people say. You know, anyone who's teaching should always 1876 01:48:18.680 --> 01:48:21.039 be being taught by the people they're teaching as well. 1877 01:48:21.720 --> 01:48:24.359 You know, if you're doing it right, you learn from 1878 01:48:24.359 --> 01:48:28.560 the process. And that's why I love giving workshops and 1879 01:48:28.680 --> 01:48:31.239 lectures and stuff, because I get so much from it. 1880 01:48:32.199 --> 01:48:35.760 Because everyone has a unique perspective. You never know what 1881 01:48:35.840 --> 01:48:37.239 they're going to bring to it and what they're going 1882 01:48:37.319 --> 01:48:39.239 to tell you. That's another reason why there's so many 1883 01:48:39.279 --> 01:48:41.760 credits in my books is because somebody's asked me questions 1884 01:48:41.760 --> 01:48:43.960 I've got. Oh, yeah, that's it needs to be addressed. 1885 01:48:44.079 --> 01:48:47.840 When people don't talk about that. It's like somebody asked 1886 01:48:47.880 --> 01:48:52.039 me on one of the courses and said, so what 1887 01:48:52.159 --> 01:48:56.079 do you do if you want to deconsecrate a pentacle? Oh? 1888 01:48:56.159 --> 01:48:58.880 That needs to go in there. I've not seen anyone 1889 01:48:58.960 --> 01:49:01.600 writing about that. So you've made a pact with a 1890 01:49:01.680 --> 01:49:03.760 spirit and then some years later you want to you 1891 01:49:03.840 --> 01:49:06.640 want to end the pact? Is fulfilled this purpose? How 1892 01:49:06.680 --> 01:49:09.319 do you deal with that? Damn, that's another really important thing. 1893 01:49:09.359 --> 01:49:11.720 I need to Let's talk about that. Let's write about that. 1894 01:49:11.880 --> 01:49:19.920 So you know, so many people often it can be 1895 01:49:19.960 --> 01:49:22.239 the simplest questions by people who wouldn't have much experience. 1896 01:49:22.279 --> 01:49:24.279 They're like, they almost feel awkward about asking the question. 1897 01:49:24.359 --> 01:49:27.800 But those questions are often the ones that hit the 1898 01:49:27.880 --> 01:49:30.680 hardest because they're the things that people don't address. It's 1899 01:49:30.760 --> 01:49:32.840 the things that seem obvious that don't get talked about, 1900 01:49:33.359 --> 01:49:36.520 and the things that are obvious and don't get talked 1901 01:49:36.520 --> 01:49:39.199 about are often the most important things that need to 1902 01:49:39.239 --> 01:49:42.720 be talked about because they're the things where you trip up. 1903 01:49:43.880 --> 01:49:46.000 And that's a lot of that's been one of the 1904 01:49:46.039 --> 01:49:47.960 big things in those Clavers books is about trying to 1905 01:49:48.000 --> 01:49:49.920 address a lot, you know, things like that so that 1906 01:49:50.000 --> 01:49:53.079 people don't trip up because it's already addressed in the 1907 01:49:53.159 --> 01:49:54.119 way I've written about it. 1908 01:49:58.239 --> 01:49:59.000 Thank you very much. 1909 01:49:59.039 --> 01:49:59.439 I'm easy. 1910 01:50:00.079 --> 01:50:05.159 Yeah, yeah, I guess uh, David, Yeah, we already. Let 1911 01:50:05.199 --> 01:50:06.920 everybody know where they can pretty much fund you. Yeah, 1912 01:50:07.000 --> 01:50:10.199 that's about it. Everybody else, I guess real quick if 1913 01:50:10.239 --> 01:50:12.159 you don't mind erro So, let everybody know where they 1914 01:50:12.159 --> 01:50:13.239 can find your stuff. 1915 01:50:14.800 --> 01:50:17.159 You can find me on YouTube at Arrows Up and 1916 01:50:17.239 --> 01:50:19.960 you can find me on Twitter at arrows to Ethos. 1917 01:50:21.840 --> 01:50:24.000 This was great. Thanks for coming on, David. 1918 01:50:24.920 --> 01:50:25.840 It's been my pleasure. 1919 01:50:25.960 --> 01:50:28.439 Thank you, Thank you, Eric. You asked some questions that 1920 01:50:28.520 --> 01:50:30.800 I was going to ask, So thank you. I appreciated 1921 01:50:30.880 --> 01:50:34.760 this for me to do awesome. Uh jit, my man, 1922 01:50:34.800 --> 01:50:37.920 what is going on? So please boss mister ninety three, 1923 01:50:38.560 --> 01:50:41.039 thank you so much. I appreciate it. Obviously. 1924 01:50:41.159 --> 01:50:45.680 Of course, David like, thank you very very much, very much. 1925 01:50:46.079 --> 01:50:49.039 I was honored, and it's a little humbled to beyond 1926 01:50:49.119 --> 01:50:51.000 the panel with you. But I I, you know, I 1927 01:50:51.079 --> 01:50:52.880 want to show you that I know a couple of things, 1928 01:50:52.920 --> 01:50:55.800 even though I'm not a ceremonial magician. So it was 1929 01:50:55.800 --> 01:50:58.159 an amazing conversation. And I and I want to learn 1930 01:50:58.199 --> 01:51:00.479 how to deconsecrate a pentacle. Not that I've done that 1931 01:51:00.880 --> 01:51:02.920 or made a spirit pact, but I still would like 1932 01:51:03.000 --> 01:51:04.319 to know how to do it because I do know 1933 01:51:04.399 --> 01:51:08.720 how to consecrate the greater keys. So and so I'll 1934 01:51:08.800 --> 01:51:11.960 just say this, thank you. Check out brother Matt, check 1935 01:51:12.000 --> 01:51:14.640 out his stuff. Obviously he's my coast and the Gray 1936 01:51:14.720 --> 01:51:16.600 Lodge and I have an episode dropping on my show 1937 01:51:16.720 --> 01:51:20.399 Threshold Saints with Gregory Peters, who just wrote the book 1938 01:51:20.479 --> 01:51:23.000 New A on contra with our other co host on 1939 01:51:23.119 --> 01:51:25.520 The Gray Lodge, Solar Exile, who I believe was in 1940 01:51:25.600 --> 01:51:28.520 the chat a little earlier and so look forward to that. 1941 01:51:28.760 --> 01:51:30.920 And of course love is cause of knowledge and with 1942 01:51:31.039 --> 01:51:33.439 the daughter, let's fucking go. Thank you guys so much, 1943 01:51:33.479 --> 01:51:34.000 appreciate it. 1944 01:51:34.920 --> 01:51:36.720 Thank you man, thank you. I'm really glad you good 1945 01:51:36.720 --> 01:51:39.119 to make it for sure. And the head is Joe. 1946 01:51:40.640 --> 01:51:41.159 You muted. 1947 01:51:43.199 --> 01:51:46.199 How you doing, everybody? So you can find me doing 1948 01:51:46.279 --> 01:51:49.119 a show called Alphony Mondays with Arrows on Monday, and 1949 01:51:49.279 --> 01:51:52.520 you can find me also doing seven seven seven with 1950 01:51:53.199 --> 01:51:55.800 Nick on Tuesdays. I forgot that one the first time. 1951 01:51:56.279 --> 01:51:58.199 So we're gonna be going through the Kabbala of Alice 1952 01:51:58.239 --> 01:52:02.239 Chapelli and also on theays, I've got your emails, so 1953 01:52:02.439 --> 01:52:05.000 send them to Headless Giant Podcast at gmail dot com 1954 01:52:05.039 --> 01:52:09.119 and I'll read your esoteric slash occult experiences on the air, 1955 01:52:09.680 --> 01:52:11.720 which David, if you want to send me some mail, 1956 01:52:11.760 --> 01:52:12.520 that would be amazing. 1957 01:52:15.840 --> 01:52:18.039 Yes, that's exactly so. 1958 01:52:18.560 --> 01:52:22.079 Also I've got the trialogues with Ethan Indigo and Ricardo tomorrow, 1959 01:52:22.199 --> 01:52:23.000 so check those out. 1960 01:52:23.039 --> 01:52:25.800 Thank you, thank you very much sir for making it. 1961 01:52:26.199 --> 01:52:29.000 And Matt, Sir, does everybody know what they can find 1962 01:52:29.039 --> 01:52:29.880 all your amazing stuff? 1963 01:52:30.319 --> 01:52:30.520 Yes? 1964 01:52:32.600 --> 01:52:36.000 Thanks a lot everyone, David especially obviously very nice to 1965 01:52:36.319 --> 01:52:39.039 I've met you personally, and I mean, if you happen 1966 01:52:39.119 --> 01:52:40.680 to go at the I don't know if they're going 1967 01:52:40.720 --> 01:52:42.800 to do another one next year to so for society 1968 01:52:43.359 --> 01:52:45.159 they're going to do another convention, but it would be 1969 01:52:45.279 --> 01:52:45.800 really nice. 1970 01:52:46.079 --> 01:52:47.920 And yeah, I had a lot of fun. 1971 01:52:48.039 --> 01:52:50.359 You guys can find me again on all social medias 1972 01:52:50.399 --> 01:52:52.439 with the handle at at more nineteen. 1973 01:52:52.960 --> 01:52:54.640 Also my website Kabala dot com. 1974 01:52:54.760 --> 01:52:57.760 That's k A A b A l a h dot com. 1975 01:52:58.359 --> 01:53:01.439 So thanks a lot, thank you for coming on and 1976 01:53:01.560 --> 01:53:02.880 it's been not at least Robbie. 1977 01:53:02.600 --> 01:53:06.239 Mark, Hey, thanks for having me on. Nick, and I 1978 01:53:06.399 --> 01:53:08.159 want to say David, it was a pleasure speaking to 1979 01:53:08.199 --> 01:53:11.920 you today. Great conversation and it's always great to see 1980 01:53:11.960 --> 01:53:15.079 to the old faces and some new faces. And if 1981 01:53:15.119 --> 01:53:18.960 anybody wants to check out my stuff, from my artwork 1982 01:53:19.039 --> 01:53:23.279 that I do, to my metamind cast and everything in between, 1983 01:53:23.399 --> 01:53:25.520 you can go to my link tree which is link 1984 01:53:25.560 --> 01:53:28.840 tree r M A r X and that'll pull up everything. 1985 01:53:29.239 --> 01:53:30.800 And yeah, this is a great time. 1986 01:53:30.880 --> 01:53:34.399 Thanks thank you Robbie for making it. And again, David, 1987 01:53:34.439 --> 01:53:36.840 I can't thank you enough for coming on the show again. 1988 01:53:36.880 --> 01:53:38.880 It was like really like surreal for me to actually 1989 01:53:38.880 --> 01:53:41.720 be able to have a conversation for you again. Not 1990 01:53:41.800 --> 01:53:43.760 to fanboy you too much, but it's just wild knowing 1991 01:53:43.800 --> 01:53:45.840 that like there was stuff of yours that I incorporated 1992 01:53:45.880 --> 01:53:48.279 into my ritual work and that helped me grow ritually, 1993 01:53:48.439 --> 01:53:50.479 like the Skuys in front of me now and I 1994 01:53:50.520 --> 01:53:53.039 get to talk to him, So it was really amazing. 1995 01:53:53.159 --> 01:53:55.760 Thank you so much, and thank you everybody else who 1996 01:53:55.800 --> 01:53:58.359 came on the show and everybody in the chat. I 1997 01:53:58.439 --> 01:54:01.000 really appreciate it, and that's we go live or appreciate 1998 01:54:01.119 --> 01:54:03.720 everybody's questions, whatever they got to add, and that is 1999 01:54:03.760 --> 01:54:06.079 the end of another Cult Rejects and until the next one, 2000 01:54:06.279 --> 01:54:07.880 everybody be well later. 2001 01:54:09.159 --> 01:54:09.439 Thank you,