Speaker 1: We're Tomy Lorenzo and this is the Pop Style Opinion
Fest hell look at and welcome back to another edition
of the PSO. I am the Tea and your te
O Tom Fitzgerald, and I'm here with the Low and
your t Lo Lorenzou, my lovely husband, I love and
we are recording this on a Saturday, for which we apologize,
but the reason for that is twofold One is that,
as you may know if you've been listening, there's drilling
and jack hammering going on twelve hours a day around
Shay Tlow, which kind of sucks for us. So we
couldn't get the podcast done, partially because of that and
partially because if you listen, last week we talked about
this feature article we have coming up for regarding Harlow,
the legendary trans woman drag Queen, and the Philadelphia Inquirer
sent their social media team to our place this week
to shoot videos with us promoting the peace. And that
was fun and exhausting, but it takes time. Yeah, and
after we wrapped up, I honestly thought it was only
going to take an hour, and it took over three hours.
And after it wrapped up, I was like, I am
not lucid enough to do a podcast right now. And
I should also note last week we talked about the
upcoming feature article, and I believe we had said back
then it was going to come out on the twenty second,
which is today. It has been pushed to December sixth,
as the last thing I've heard from my editor. And
part of the reason it keeps getting pushed back is
because it keeps getting bigger, which is really awesome. There
doing a whole package. They're doing video, they're doing photos.
Rachel Harlow sat for her first portrait in goodness thirty
five years at least.
Speaker 2: Right, there's a lot going on.
Speaker 1: There's a lot going on. So anyway, that was why,
and we didn't want to put it off like, oh,
we'll do it on Monday, because we really have neglected
you guys this month because of our trip to Paris.
So I wanted to get one quick one in today
and hopefully we're going to get another quick one in
on Wednesday. On Wednesday, so you'll have something to listen
to do over the holiday weekends. All right, that's enough housekeeping,
which is ironic. I'm saying this as are we are
piled highway God, there's pass and everywhere tissue paper. We
started unloading our Christmas stuff from last.
Speaker 2: Year and I will do because we have plenty of ornaments.
I will be doing the Ornament of the Day on
Insta on our Instagram account because we have over week or.
Speaker 1: Just in Paris alone, we bought ten ornaments. In Germany
and Belgium and the Netherlands. I think we easily fifty
or sixty new ornaments. You're going to have to do
more than an ornament a day.
Speaker 2: Maybe too fine, It was just fine. I'll count them
and then make sure that I have enough, but you
have to understand them. When we went to Cologne, sorry,
we we actually had to buy an extra bag to.
Speaker 1: Duffle bag to bring back to large.
Speaker 2: Duffle bag to bring everything back because we didn't have room.
So yeah, we we have a ton of new things
and and we can't wait to.
Speaker 1: Coming for they. My father, coming brother, his brother's partner.
So we're just trying to do this huge American Christmas
for them.
Speaker 2: So we're very excited about it. We're going to take
them to New York. It's it's uh, my brother's partner
for shiming in America. Yeah, so she she's very excited
to come here, and we're going to take her to
New York, take her everywhere, and my mom will be
here too, so it'll be a lot of fun, you know,
because they're everywhere. They're not with me all the time
I missed them, so we'll be exciting.
Speaker 1: Yes, so we are in the midst of that, and
that will be taking a long time. And if you
do want to see the ornament or two of the day,
you should go to Tom and Lorenzo Official, which is
our Instagram account since our old one got hacked, and
we have not bumped our numbers up to our old
follower numbers, so please come find us and follow us.
It's actually, I mean not it sounds. You know, people
roll their eyes at influencers and other and bloggers and
so forth who get caught up in their numbers and
their follower count. But it doesn't matter. It matters quite
a bit. It translates to so many different things.
Speaker 2: The thing is a lot of people don't know that
that will happen, and so they still have the old account.
And the thing is that we can't do anything. I
can't even delete it. And you know, if you contact
Instagram forget it.
Speaker 1: There is no one to contact it Instagram.
Speaker 2: So it's hanging there. I can't do anything. We have
the new one.
Speaker 1: It breaks my heart because all of our vacation pictures
around there.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, I feel violated actually, but anyway, let's not
go there. But anyway, we have a new account. It's
tullel Lorenzo Official, and I'll be posting a ton of
Christmas stuff there.
Speaker 1: All right, we have a few things to discuss today.
We're going to I am going to reluctantly engage in
a discussion of Megan Markle. Lorenzo wanted to bring this up,
and I'm like, ugh, I don't know, it's nothing. I'm honestly,
it's not saying that against her. It's more like, hasn't
just been discussed to death. But whatever, Lorenzo has things,
and I have things that I will react to. Then
we're going to talk about the exceedingly bizarre, wicked publicity tour,
oh my god, yes, and all the drama that is
surrounding it, so much so that there was an actual
article in the New York Times this week simply recounting
all of the drama on this publicity true, and then
I think we're just gonna do the We both saw
Kiss of the Spider Woman have all the screeners have
started coming in because of our GLECTA membership. We are
members of the Game Lesbian Entertainment Critics Associated, actually the
LGBTQ Entertainment Critics Association, and so we get screamers at
the end of the year, and we.
Speaker 2: Really want to see the movie, and you too.
Speaker 1: I did too, I really wanted to see the movie.
And we have thoughts about it, disappointing thoughts. So that's
the game plan, kind in the middle. That's the game plan,
all right. So let's start with Let's start with Megan Markle. Meghan,
the Duchess of Sussex just had a big splashy Harper's
bizarre editorial Copper interview.
Speaker 2: It's on our site, Yes, we posted it.
Speaker 1: Of course, I don't care. I barely glanced at this thing.
And again it is not I'm not. I have no
you know, enmity towards her. I have no you know,
I'm not. But it's it's all been unpacked and by us,
like we have unpacked her and her journey and and
her druggles and her products and her persona. We have
discussed that ad nauseum. But you know, there's always something new.
There's also something new. Lorenzo's on TikTok and he's been
talking all week about the TikTok and everybody talking about them.
It's not this same interview and so on, and so
why don't you go ahead?
Speaker 2: And it's actually everywhere. Here's the thing with Megan Marco.
I'm not a fan of any of them. Let me
just put that out there. I'm not a fan of
all Catherine Harry, none of them. I found the whole thing,
the royal thing, disgusting, disgusting. I literally worshiping these people
like you know, royalty, because they are royalty anyway. It's
not my country, not my culture. I don't like any
of that. So I'm always like reading about these things.
But and we post on our site because of course
we do. But you know, I don't worship this people.
So these people to me are just like any other celebrity.
The thing is that I have to see in her
defense every time she does something or it comes out
with something, they just jumped on her, you know, they
just it's a trial every time, right, And she has
to defend herself and they you know, they dissect everything,
they speculate everything she has. She can never get a break.
I give her that. But uh, she had this cover,
she had this article, and it's very very interesting because
it's the it's the if you read the article, is
this whole thing about you know, the new Megan. You
know Megan you know, finally comes out and becomes a
new woman type of thing, and you know she's going
to be doing new things and we keep hearing this
all the time. And the thing is that before the
the they dropped the article. Uh, there was this whole thing.
We didn't have time to do it because we didn't
do a podcast, this whole drama with her and her
husband attending Chris Janner's birthday party, and you know, they
photographed all these people, uh, the Kardashians of course, because
it's all about publicity and social media, so they photographed
all the guests, including them, Megan and Harry, and they
posted the pictures on on on on their Instagram account,
of course they did. So it's not a picture of
them sitting at a table and you know, looking at
the camera, surprised or anything like that. It's just them
hugging the Kardashians and looking at the camera and taking pictures.
So these pictures were taken, UH posted on on their
social media account, the Kardashians, and UH right after that,
the pictures disappeared, and everybody noticed that the pictures were gone,
and they questioned. Of course, they questioned why the pictures
were gone, so nobody came out with an answer. Finally,
there was some story about they didn't give any consent
for the pictures to be taken, and then that pissed
the Kardashians because then they came out allegedly and said that,
you know.
Speaker 1: Nobody allegedly needs to be cast over there entire s.
Speaker 2: I know. But but the picture did disappear, Okay, they
were deleted anyway, So the Cardassian said that nobody gave
permission to have the pictures taken. So they don't understand
where where they're coming from with this thing that they
didn't give any consent for the picture to be taken.
But it does make a little sense to me now
that I don't know, Party Girl, party Boy didn't go
well with everything that's been planned, including the article. If
you read the article, you know it makes sense that
they didn't want those pictures, you know, on social media
because it's a new error, you know, it's new life,
it's a new d for Megan Marco and Prince Harry
and you can if you.
Speaker 1: Think this is an awful lot of speculation, well anyway,
that's you know whatever. Some pictures got deleted from a
social media account and a whole story now has been
spun out over it.
Speaker 2: Anyway, so that's I feel like it should.
Speaker 1: Be taken with an enormous brain of salt.
Speaker 2: Anyway, As I said, everything gets speculated too much. But anyway,
that's where we are, and they will always talk about
those two. So the article's out, the magazines are, the
covers out, so now they're talking about the pictures that
the pictures are very similar to a photoshoot that Diana,
Princess Diana did.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna jump in here because Lorenzo brought this
up before we flipped on the mics, and I was like, okay,
they always say that, They say that at the time.
You know, Catherine wore that green velvet gown this week,
and the press pulled out some black velvet gown that
Diana wore forty years ago that had a similar and
that's not a homage. You're just looking for shit. And
then so Lorenzo said this before the mics went on,
and I said, that's bullshit. Show me and we went
looking for examples, and the examples are the same, lay
mass shit. She's in a similar pose to oppose Diana
gave forty years ago. Diana was the most photographed woman
in the twentieth century. There are literally millions of photographs
of her, and most of the editorials that Diana ever
sat for were standard, especially later after she divorced her husband.
They were standard celebrity style editorials. So yes, Megan and
Catherine when they post for pictures, you're going to find
similar poses because they're both royal women who are working
within a certain They're not wearing super trendy, super hot,
super sexy clothes, They're wearing royal women clothes. Meghan's doing
an American version, Catherine's doing the traditional version, and Diana
famously combined both. She had she used to wear the
Eagles sweatshirt, and that's sort of that she loved American
style and she loved royal style, and you will see
that in her daughter's in law. But this constant attempt
to turn everything into and in Meghan's case, when when
Catherine does it, it's oh, loving tribute, loving tribute to
her mother in law. Sure, and when Meghan does it,
she's ripping Diana's memory off. It's true bullshit, Verrenzo, it's
absolute bullshit. Discuss all you want, but I think it's nonsense.
Speaker 2: I agree with you, and uh, because I'm always looking
for articles for the Lounge. I see that all the time,
and I find it actually embarrassing that fashion magazines are
doing that.
Speaker 1: They're doing it for the clicks, that's all they're doing.
Speaker 2: I'm always cry and I'm always embarrassed. I was like, no,
it's just it looks similar, but it has nothing to do.
And you made a very good point. When Catherine does it, it's
an homage. When Megan does it, she's copying.
Speaker 1: She wants to be Diana and Diana's memory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's trying to be Diana. I totally agree with
you on that. So that is about the picture. Then
if you go look the photoshoop Megan photoshoop, it's very
much magnet. You know, she likes like very solid block,
you know, like like very.
Speaker 1: Nineties style editor Yeah, she's very.
Speaker 2: The road type of girl, you know, like the road
of the brand, you know, very like simple, basic.
Speaker 1: Lines and minimalists. Black and white.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what the photo shoot is about. And
it makes sense with the article if you read the article,
because you know, this is new Megan, so it's like
a clean slate. It's just clean and fresh and and
you know, black and white. So it makes sense that
the photoshoot went that way. And I don't understand much
the comparison. And if you can look at the pictures, yes,
you can say the pictures are similar, and then you
know the colors are similar.
Speaker 1: But anyway, it's bullshit just because you saw it on
TikTok though anyway true.
Speaker 2: So that's that. And then a segment of the population
is met at the writer. They're very angry.
Speaker 1: I thought the piece was very oddly written. Yeah, it
was weirdly fawning and at the same time it would
get critical. It would make me snidersides. I mean it
referred to Harry and Meghan's engagement as a tectonic shift
in the culture. No, it wasn't come on now that
you need to calm down, and it just it overstates
her journey and her whatever. It's just fawning in a way.
I found a little embarrassing for the writer, honestly.
Speaker 2: So they criticized. Some people criticized the writer because they
think that it was kind of like a stab in
a way. I mean that she interviewed her and at
the same time, you know, criticized her for certain things.
And the part that every yeah, the part that everyone
is talking about every piece I see and read about
is is the fact that the Megan's staff announced her
as because the interview took place several places, I believe,
and one of the places was in New York at
Meghan's friend's house, this enormous you know Upper East Side,
you know, Brownstone uh and with elevator and everything. And
the writer makes the point of all that and uh
and magazine is announced as the Meghan, Duchess of Sussex
by the staff and the writer felt that was weird
because it was just her or it was just two
people in the room and why the staff announcing her
as a duchy Duchess of Sussex. And so everyone is
focused on this because you know, everyone talks about Meghan
uh and Prince Harry uh not wanting to be part
of the royal family anymore, and why she's still using
the title. And then if you watch the show Love
with Megan, she you know, talks about like that she
is the Duchess of Sussex. That's her name now. But
at the same time they didn't want to be any
part of the royal family anymore anyway. So that's the
part that everyone is talking about, is the fact that
there was you know, she made her staff announce her
uh in a in pretty much an empty room tale.
So that's the thing. Uh So everyone is talking about
this article. I thought it was interesting, and I just
find it interesting that everything about these two and I'm
not just saying Megan, it's Harry. It's the same thing.
There's all he's like this drama. But anyway, I yeah.
Speaker 1: I I just don't have a lot to say. We've
covered this. I I think most of the drama doesn't
really rate any sort of discussion anymore. I think the
only thing worth rolling your eyes at is, yes, the
staff announcing her in using her title. It seems very
much not in line with hypocritical Yeah, they're in America,
there's no need to be following royal protocol and there
is absolutely no need to be using their titles. So
I get that that's eye roll worthy. And Megan is,
you know, every time she steps out, every time she
gives an interview or a SoundBite, she will say something
I roll worthy, because that is the way Megan is.
She's she's a little pretentious, she's she protects herself a
lot from being attacked, so she tends to get a
little precious. I mean, there was the one quote it
was like, I too make mistakes, and I'm like making
who fucking talks like that? Come on? But I think
she's harmless, and I think people just that's why I'm
really not interested. I'm sorry, but I'm not. I'm like,
we've covered her. She's she is who she is. She's pretentious,
she's trying to make a life for herself, and yes,
she received a lot of bullshit from the press and
the public and she still does. And that's it. That's
the making story. That's all I have to say about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just somebody made a very good point that
she she needs to focus, she needs to decide who
she wants to be. I feel like the two of
them are not presenting one version of themselves out there
that you can focus on, and you can you know,
it's pretty much they're doing everything, they're trying everything, and
then you know, and then some stuff doesn't work, and
then you know, people make fun of that and they
feel like they're not being presented the real version of them.
And then I kind of agree with that that, you know,
just you know, try to be one thing, tried to
do one thing and focus on that, and then you know,
I guess people will believe what you say more if
they feel that that that version is more real than
you know, every version out there present in every every
six month. That's it, all, right.
Speaker 1: Then that's wraps up our latest thoughts on Megan, and
we're gonna take a show break and we'll be right back.
We're back, and we're going to talk about the insane
wicked press tour that has been going on for the
last seven to ten years. You know, we talked a
lot about this last year. We didn't I don't think
we actually did a podcast about it, but we sure
as hell had a lot of opinions about, you know,
the cosplay and the theminess of their of Ariana Grande
and Cyndia Rivo's outfits, and you know, there was much
discussion last year of how strange they were acting, and
there was that Holding Space interview that was widely memed
and went viral, and and I think, you know this,
this new press store is only a couple of weeks old,
and let's face it, the film's opening at Christmas, but
they are going to be doing this all the way
right up until Oscar Night, which is basically how they
did it last year. So we are looking at three
months of this and there were already only two weeks
into it, and there's been so much drama, and I
feel like the press and the public just aren't feeling
that kind of bullshit anymore. And there are the wicked,
diehard fans that and there are they are legion who
are going to think that these two can never do
anything wrong.
Speaker 2: But that's true of everybody.
Speaker 1: That's true of every fandom. But I did note I
thought it was interesting that there was an article on
The New York Times by Esther Zuckerman. And we follow
each other on social media about this, this this tour
and how much has been going on with it. Do
you want to recount some of the stuff now?
Speaker 2: First, I want to see if you follow us, if
you read as you know that that people, the celebrities
do actors do that because they need to promote the movie.
That's the reason number one reason why they do it.
And uh and I actually put an article on in
one of the lounes. I posted one of the articles
about how exhausting it is and how you know, people
try to sell a movie a whole the whole package,
you know, the movie, the actors, the director, everybody. So
you know, you're trying to sell a product here and
it and it feels like with this movie because it
is Wicked. Everybody loves Wicked. Uh, it's just it's out
of control. It's it's bigger than ever. And it happened
with the first movie. I mean, if you go to
our site now, every talk show interviewed all of them
many times, like they've been to every talk show, every
you know everything. I mean, they they they already went
to Europe and you know Asia, they're like promoting the
show like crazy. And I understand, I understand why they
do that. It's just that couple with the whole promotion thing.
There's also this bizarre way that Cynthia Rivo and orionegranted
decided to present thisselves in front of the camera. I
understand to a certain extent that it's very emotion to
make a movie together, and that you know, you meet
again and then you have that I don't know, experience, right,
and that actors have a lot of feelings.
Speaker 1: And I think they're both a couple. They have that
theater kid energy when these are the ultimate theater kid
roles for them to play. I feel that a lot
of their emotional stuff, you know, on tour is relatively genuine.
I think it's I think they get themselves a bit
worked up, that's the thing. I don't think they're being phony,
but I think they're getting a bit worked up and
trying to get people what they want to see. And
I honestly felt like that holding space thing last year
was like the culmination of that where they had I
felt like I could see it in the moment where
they were doing their whole thing, their whole theater kid thing,
and then like halfway through what they realized, what the
fuck are we doing like this? Why am I holding
her finger? What are we even talking about? And I
think it's a lot of that. I do think like
this week, Cynthia Rivo had laryngitis and she couldn't speak
during the press stour. And that's you know what. First off,
she's a singer. She needs to protect that voice. And secondly,
I don't think it's at all uncommon for someone on
a press tour like this one to get laryngitis and
to have to give a statement in saying I won't
be giving interviews tonight. And this was for the New
York Red Carpet, But then freaking Arianna gave put out
a statement that insolidarity with her co star, she too
would not be giving interviews that And that's the kind
of silly shit that people rolled their eyes at, like,
all and I just give an interview. You're on a
red car but this is what we're here for. She's
not your wife. You don't need to do that for her.
You can just And she actually did wind up giving
interviews Arianna, So this is what I mean. They get
so caught up in supporting their co star and loving
their co star, and I also think they tend to
this is something this goes hand in hand with the
cosplay element of their Red Carpet style, is that they
are essentially cosplaying their characters in these interviews. So they're
you know, there's this friendship and impossible rivalry and all
the feelings, feelings, feelings, and it's it's just a little silly.
I get it. You're selling tickets. This is what it is.
I'm cynical. I've been writing about this for twenty years.
It doesn't affect me the way it might affect you know,
a fan or you know a less you know, involved
passer by. But it's silly. I think it's a bit silly.
You are not your characters. You are a couple of actresses.
You are grown women. You are not in in love
with each other. You can just be colleagues, friends and partners,
you know, work partners. You don't have to act the
way that they have been acting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the thing is that if you watch
the videos, they're hilarious in a way. The thing you
have to first of all, Ariana Grundy, I mean people
always make fun of her for several reason. First of all,
like the last Grammys, she they were making fun of
her the way she overreacted with with something and somebody
was on.
Speaker 1: She used to be like this.
Speaker 2: She's a pop star, fake surprised, you know, like she's
always like, oh my god, she does that a lot.
And then the thing with the voice. People notice that,
you know, her voice is not exactly like that, right,
that a voice she presaated, Which is fine, you're an actor,
do your acting thing. But and then Santiaivo, people have
criticized her for being a.
Speaker 1: Little I don't know, She's always been extra extra.
Speaker 2: That's the word I'm gonna use. Yeah, So you combine
these two personalities and and and the fact that you
have to die, you have to when you're selling a
movie and doing interviews. I mean, come on instead, it's
not just them, uh and Anya Taylor Joy. I mean,
have you watched one I've her ead if you're just
hysterical because it's over the top, you know, everything is
very dramatic.
Speaker 1: That's how they're doing it for the ticular. Basically they're
doing this is what modern press press tours are like.
This is what modern celebrity is like. Is you you
go out there and you just play this part for
your fans, and you're and whatever, I'm gonna sound so
gen x, but this it's so insincere to me that
I can't like all right. I guess this will sell tickets,
but I just roll my eyes at all of it
because it's so phony. And then I go.
Speaker 2: Back to.
Speaker 1: Oh boohoo, like a Hollywood press stars phony, welcome to
the world. This is what Hollywood press stwors have been
for one hundred years. Now, maybe it just seems more
obvious with these two, how phony and over the top,
it's become I don't begrudge them, like I said, I
think they're bringing that theater kid energy. I think they're
bringing exactly what the fans of Wicked want to see
from the two of them. However, it strikes me as
a strong I guess they feel they can do this
because pitch their entire you know, publicity tour directly to
the people who are gonna buy tickets anyway, rather than
trying to convince the general public. Because I guess they
figured this is going to be such a monster hit,
we can just go out and you know, cosplay for
the fans. And that's exactly what they've been doing. That's
why this tour feels so bizarre. And I mean we
didn't note that there was the there's just so much drama,
like Ariana Grande got attacked by a fan on the
red carpet.
Speaker 2: Where was that? I think of Singapore.
Speaker 1: I think it was Singapore. He the guy does that
that was their fault.
Speaker 2: No, no, absolutely no, but he apparently the.
Speaker 1: Guy has a history of it.
Speaker 2: Go ahead, that's it. He apparently he does that a lot.
He's done that with other act musicians. So not defending him.
He's an asshole. And it is scary. You know, you
have this crazy person, you know, running towards you. Of
course you're gonna freak out. And I can understand why
Cynthia rival uh you know, try to protect her. But
the scene it's it's actually you know, scary, but also
hilarious because Cynthia River is like protecting her, like like
her bodyguard, which I was actually surprised. Why why did
they let that happen? From number one? And where are
the bodyguards that are not protecting her? Right away? But
there are other things like there's there's an interview where
Cynthia Rivo is very emotion giving an answer and then
a helicopter is passing by and she gets very emotional
because the helicopters this is just you know, disturbing the
whole thing. And then she and then Ariana grand is
holding her and then there's another interview where the interview
is holding Ariana grand Is arm while he's talking to her. Uh,
and then Cytia, we immediately go and you know, protect
her arm and it's like kissing her and kissing her hand.
It's just so weird. It's weird, and I get it.
We're talking about it, and TikTok is talking about it.
Instagram is talking about it. So, you know, mission accomplished.
They're they're promoting a movie, and if you talk about them,
then you promote a movie. And and but but it
is exhausting because they're giving a lot of interviews here everywhere,
and as you said, uh, it's not over yet. This
is still going on and uh, it's going to go
on for a long long time. And I do feel
watching the Red Carpet, watching the interviews and everything, I
feel like they're focusing too much on both of them.
And I understand they're the main characters, but I feel
like the other actors are not getting the same attention
as they are. But anyway, but they're everywhere stars.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, it's the the movie is going to probably
be the you know, the biggest movie of the year.
So it's not like we're sitting her saying they're they're,
you know, doing it wrong. They're clearly doing it right.
But it's silly and eye roll worthy. And I do
think the two of them, especially Ariana, is going to
have to figure out how to extricate themselves from this
when they move on to another project like AAMI. You
have adopted a whole new look, a whole new way
of speaking, a whole new way of acting in public,
and you're just going to ditch that when the next
project comes along, right right, right, right right, and that's
going to look incredibly disingenuous to people, but that probably
it probably won't matter.
Speaker 2: No, it won't matter because the fans are fans, and
they you know, they'll they'll come up with any excuse
to defend them, which is fine, but it's just it's
it's funny. It's kind of like pathetic in a way,
but also it's just it. If you watch it like
I do, all the videos in the red carpet and everything,
I'm like, oh my god, here we go again. Every
day is something different. But anyway, it's not over yet.
They're wearing I have to say, they're wearing credible things,
and it's interesting. That's you know, that's the part I
like about the Red Carpet, because they're wearing amazing things.
Ariana Grande's wearing all these archival pieces, and you know,
it's all big. It's very very big. It goes to
go with the movie, which is also very big.
Speaker 1: They're doing their jobs and our job is to rollerrize
at them. So good for them, and I hope they
make tons of money. All right, we're going to take
a show break and then we're coming back to talk
about Kiss of the Spider Woman. We'll be right back.
We're back, and now we're going to give you a
review of Kiss of the Spider Woman. I I don't
think we're going to spoil anything. No, I'm not going
to give away what happens at the end of the film,
you know, the fate of all the characters or whatever.
So we'll keep that. You shouldn't have to worry about
being spoiled in this review. First off, there's not a
lot of twist and turns in the story. It's very basic. Secondly,
it's a remake of a forty year old film. Well,
it's a musical remake of a forty year old film.
So all right, when this was announced and we saw
the first trailers for it, I was excited. I've said
this before about j Lo. I know how silly she
can be, but she's one of those stars I'm kind
of always rooting for. To me, she probably hasn't has
been one of those stars that has inspired the whole
Tee Low brand the most. There's probably five five or
so stars. She's one of them. I think Kate Blanchette
would be another one, Lupite Nyango. You know, there's certain people.
J Loo has always been you know, if you ever
if you know, you're Telo Lure. Our first book was
Everyone Wants to Be Me Or Do Me? Tom Lorenzo's
Guide to Celebrity Life and Style, and it was a
you know, satirical look at circa twenty ten celebrity culture.
And she informed a lot of that book. A lot
of her celebrity persona informed a ton of that book.
And she's come in for a lot in the last
several years. Her she you know, had a big, splashy
reunion with Ben Affleck and then that marriage flopped, and
she's had a series of movies flop and she actually
had to cancel a tour because she wasn't selling any tickets.
And I feel bad for her.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 1: I don't think j Loo has done anything terrible. She
hasn't been canceled or anything like that. She's just faded
as a star and she's trying to find you know,
she is something like fifty five years old. She looks
fifteen years younger, but she's trying to hold on to some.
Speaker 2: Sort of career.
Speaker 1: And I guess I feel a little bit because I
also think she has come up against the limits of
her own talent. I think j Lo is talented, but
she was never a world class actress. Middle Yeah, she
was always mid level. And it's to me, it's always
kind of impressive what she's managed with that mid level talent.
Speaker 2: It's like Madonna, you know, well.
Speaker 1: It it reminds me of a lot of old time
movie stories, like these people who were not necessarily the
greatest actresses in the world, but they knew how to
develop a persona and sell it to the public.
Speaker 2: They knew how to carve a yeah for them, and
Jlo has done that yeah yeah, And I'm I'm pressed
by her work ethic her commitment to the bit.
Speaker 1: So when this movie was announced and we saw it,
I was like, Oh, great, she's going to get her
comeback moment. This looks like Oscar bait and I just
want her to do an Oscar campaign because she'll just,
you know, tear it up. She seemed perfect for the material,
although I had some reservations because I was like, well,
it isn't my place as a white person to question
Jlo's connection to Latin culture, but well, she is Latin.
She is Latin, of course she is. But her persona
is very middle of the road, and this is an
extremely Latina part. It requires her to really tap into
her Latina's self. And I was like, is that the
Is that the first actress I would pick for that role.
I'm not sure it would be, but I wanted her
to do. I wanted this to be a success for
her sake and uh I. We watched it separately. I
watched it first, and then I said, I want you
to watch this because I want us to talk about
it because I'm a little disappointed. But before I get
into that, I think I want to hear your thoughts
because you, I think, actually liked it more than I.
Could tell you we're enjoying it.
Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing. I The Kiss of the Spider
Woman is the movies, play or whatever. They're all based
on a book written by Manuel Pui and and it's
a very famous book, very very famous book. I read
the book when I was a teenager. I was obsessed
with the book because it's a story of a political
prison who has to share as out with a queer guy.
So that fascinated me. Of course as a teenager. You know,
as a teenager you want to read about these stories,
you want to read about, you know, queer people, and
this was a very famous book. I read it, loved it,
was obsessed with it. And then they made a movie
back in nineteen eighty five, which was kind of interesting.
I thought it was cool, was great.
Speaker 1: William Hurt won the Oscar.
Speaker 2: Yes, and then Sony Braga, the very famous Brazilian actress,
played the part of the Spider Woman, so it was
an interesting project. I was thrilled because I read the
book and I loved it, and so I know these
characters really well. And when they announced that Jennifer Lopez
was going to play the part, I actually were thrilled
because I felt like she is the she embodies everything
that the character is about. The carry is about this
Hollywood glimmer, you know, woman star, and that's what Jenni
Philipps is.
Speaker 1: And you know it's a singing and dancing, singing.
Speaker 2: And dancing part. And so I thought it was a great, great,
perfect and I do feel that Jennifer Lopez can't do
that kind of stuff. And and as you mentioned, you know,
she's trying very hard to get nominated again, you know,
to be taken seriously as an actor and all that.
And I was like, okay, great, great project. The thing
is that at the same time, I have to be
very honest here. When I hear about a project like this,
I get very excited about it because it's being made,
and I think things like that need to be made.
We can't all have like you know, comic book, you know,
movies all the time. We need to have projects like that.
But it felt and if theuse because the first of all,
I feel like the story, if you do the book
is a little dated. It needs to be updated. And
when you update the story, I don't feel like you
have the story anymore. In a way.
Speaker 1: Unpack that, Why do you feel it needs to. It's
set in nineteen eighty three. I don't feel that it
needed or was update, I know.
Speaker 2: But it feels like like, for example, the movie went
more in a non binary type of description of the character,
as opposed to a flame all it gay man in
the book. Yes, the the political prison in the book
is a lot more macho than the character presented in
the book. In a movie, I felt like he was
a little more softened than the actual character.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Diegaluna was cast in the part that Rabul Julia
played in the and Raoul Julia was a big, strapping
Latino man and Daga Luna is a small, elegant looking
Latino man. And many people I read reviews where they
people several critics said that he was miscast in the part,
and I was like, well, I thought he was good.
And then you pointed out that that character is supposed
to be big in macho and everything, and I was like,
all right, I get that, I thought he was good.
Let's get I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2: The character is supposed to be very conflicted about the
whole thing, even though they have some sort of relationship
in the cell, But in the movie, it feels like
way more open.
Speaker 1: Way more romantic, way more romantic.
Speaker 2: Than it actually is supposed to be. There are several
things I.
Speaker 1: Think that perhaps, yes, I see what you're getting at now,
and I think that perhaps in a modern era, the
director Bill Condon did not want to explore them. One
of the characters he would have been homophobic by modern standards,
and so they didn't make him.
Speaker 2: They didn't want that.
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying, and that's fine because that
actually does take some of the edge off of the story.
So I want to into some of my critiques about
this movie. I do want to say the reason I
feel bad is because Jaylo's great. Do you agree she's
good in it?
Speaker 2: She is. I think she is fantastic when she's dancing,
when she's singing.
Speaker 1: Everything, she's worrying at everything.
Speaker 2: Everything works.
Speaker 1: She's glamorous as hell and hell sanely glamorous.
Speaker 2: As the character needs to be because the character the
character is pretty much a character created by Molina the
queer guy.
Speaker 1: So it's in his head. It's always in his head.
Speaker 2: He has this idea of this fantastic, flawless woman, right,
and that's what she is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what she is. So I mean In some ways,
it's the perfect part for j Lo because all that's
required of her is to be incredibly glamorous on screen
and to sing and dance, and it actually does not
require this is going to sound really bitchy. It doesn't
require much acting from her. She doesn't have like big
emotional scenes, and when she does, she's playing a pastiche
character that's in another character's head, so the emotion like
there is a scene where she cries and gets upset,
but it's done in that very nineteen forties musical style.
This is what I really want to get into. The
film is, in my opinion, poorly directed by Bill Condon,
and it's a shame because he's the director of Chicago.
You would think this is someone who really knows how
to handle this material. There is such a lackluster feel
to the whole thing that I kept sitting through it
going why did you make this movie? It feels like
you didn't want to make this movie, or it feels
like you're not really feeling this material at all, You're
just making your way through it. My number one thing,
and you know this is it might seem like a
surface thing to you, but to me, it's like, if
you're going to do a film like this where you
are constantly cutting to a pastiche of nineteen forties Latin
American MGM musicals, you know, the kind of Carmen Miranda
style things, and that is who she's She is playing
a pastiche. It's not really Carmen Miranda. It's like a
pastiche of like twenty different Latin American screen sirens of
the nineteen forties. But if you're going to do that,
and you're going to cut to these scenes that are
basically recreations of nineteen forties musicals, you got to get
that right. And the reason you have to get that
right is because the nineteen forties MGM musical aesthetic is
extremely well established, and it has been parodied and pastiched
and recreated hundreds of times in the years since of
MGM's heyday. It's not a difficult thing to recreate the
look of a nineteen forties musical because so many people
have already done that recreation that anybody who does it
in twenty twenty five has a whole book to show
them how to do it. And right from the very
second they showed they cut to a scene from them like,
that's not what that's not what musicals look like in
the forties. It looked the sets look like TV sets
for some strange reason. The lighting is very flat TV lighting,
it seems like, and again like Bill Condon should know
this a little bit better. It seems like the idea was, well,
when we do the nineteen forties, it should be super
super colorful because that's you know, technicolor, and that's literally it. Like,
the scenes are all so eye searingly colorful, and that
seems to have been all that they did to I mean,
some of the sets look like Carol Burnett show sets.
To me, they look like you know, or RuPaul's drag races.
Speaker 2: Like and now sketches. Yeah, they do.
Speaker 1: They look like TV sets. And I'm thinking that was
partially deliberate, like a wink wink they all had. They
worked on sets in studios. It's on a sound stage.
It's not real. But again, I am very well versed
in MGM musicals of the forties, and yes, those things
were sets and the backdrops were painted, but they were
also elaborate as hell. They were breathtaking sets. They didn't
look cheap.
Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing I think he missed understood showing
fake sets exactly cheap sets. I think fake and cheap
here because because if you look at movies from the
photies and even fifties, they are you can tell.
Speaker 1: That they don't look cheap.
Speaker 2: You know they're fake, but they are insanely beautiful and
well made and well created. You know, a lot of
money spent. And so you have this, You have Jennifer
Lopez doing her best singing and dancing. But then you
look around. The set looks so cheap. The clothes, the
costumes look very.
Speaker 1: Very cheap, and her weg is bad.
Speaker 2: Bad. You almost see the underneath her head and also
underneath the week I mean, and uh, and the also
the the light you mentioned the lights, flat television light.
Speaker 1: Everything is so not disappointing to say.
Speaker 2: And so so and and of course, if you're telling
the story, they are in prison in a horrible, shitty environment.
Speaker 1: But that was a very dramatically art directed prison. I'm sorry.
Their cell was charming in a way, and I'm like,
that's kind of wrong. So the cell looks like a
friend's apartment, a theater stage. It looks like a theater stage. Yeah,
it looks very very clean, and very evansive like and
like they can walk around and I'm like, no, that
should be a tiny little cell where they can barely move.
Speaker 2: So the prison is too clean. The the the illusion,
the you know, the the musicals and all that in
his head are not glamorous enough. So that part was very,
very disappointing.
Speaker 1: It really was. Can I I'm sorry, I don't mean
to keep it around.
Speaker 2: No, no, I have And then yeah, the the I have
to say and I want to do. I'm not giving
anything away, but the scenes outside the prison they were beautiful.
They were extremely nice done, nicely done. The city, the closed,
the costumes, they put.
Speaker 1: Him on a time and place a car. Yeah, Argentina
in nineteen eighty three. Not that I have a ton
of references.
Speaker 2: Well, I've been to weird Heady, So I have to
say that I'm not giving anything away. But the last scene,
actually I got all choked up because it's shot in
a way that it just looked beautiful and they really
capture what the book is talking about anyway, So that's that.
Speaker 1: But I just wanted a couple more things. I feel
like the film missed the mark on looking at it
through a queer lens. If this is Molina's view of
nineteen forties musical, and Molina is, by the language of today,
a non binary queer man, I would I would think
that a director would want those reminiscences of his to
be a little gayer. And that is why I think
I'm so disappointed with the look of that nineteen forties era,
because you are recreating a nineteen forties musical through the
eyes of a queer man forty years later. It's his
version of it, So it just it should have been
a lot more sparkly. It should have been a lot
more glamorous. It should have really sold the difference between
the glamour of these fantasies and the degradation of that cell.
And it didn't because the cell looked, really looked nicer
than it was supposed to, and the MGM scenes looked
shittier than they were supposed to, right, So that juxtaposition
never actually worked, and I never felt like I was
watching a queer man's recreation of MGM. I was watching
a straight man trying. I don't even know Bill Condon
is straight, actually, but I just didn't think the film
had enough of a queer sensibility.
Speaker 2: To write the original character is very very much a
gay man and sort of like a very flamer, Yes,
very flamboyant.
Speaker 1: I didn't like Hurts portrayal actually, and it kind of
fucked me up as a teenager who's trying to figure
himself out right, but he's supposed.
Speaker 2: To wear a lot of makeup where you know, look
a lot more like I don't know someone who's because
he talks about it. It's it's funny because the character
in the movie, the character is about like he wanted
to be a woman, and then you look at him
and you or them, depending on how you want to
see it, and you don't see it right someone you
know leaning that way. So there are a lot of
things that don't make say it. I still enjoy the
movie because, like I said, I can recommend the book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's disappointing, but I can recommend it if you
want to see j Lo giving it her everything. Tonatilla,
the who plays Molina, and this is his first big
movie role. As far as I know, they he I
think he is. He goes by And as far as
they're amazing in it, they are fantastic in it, and
really it's their film. They are the center of that film. Uh,
do you disagree?
Speaker 2: Your Ma is absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 1: I thought he was wonderful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great character, all of them. Valentine is
too soft. Sorry, too soft.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a Diego's character.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's supposed to be more like a macho guy.
Speaker 1: There wasn't enough of it. You're looking at two sort
of slightly built Latino men, and there wasn't enough of
a dichotomy with how they look.
Speaker 2: And Valentine the character is supposed to be bitter, angry,
and yes, Diego Luna had a little bit of that,
but not enough to make a distinction there. Because they're
supposed to be black and white. They're supposed to be
completely different, the opposite, right, and they're not. It gets
to a point where they're a little too yeah, too closed.
Speaker 1: Too similar, too similar. And then I have to address
the elephant in the room, which is that I am
not I was not aware of the musical. I had
never really listened to it or the cast record. I
had never seen it. The song suck. That is a
real problem here is that these I kept waiting for
a decent song, and every single one of them. So
she gives it her all, I gotta say, but not
one of those songs were good in my view.
Speaker 2: So let me ask you a question, because unfortunate I
didn't have time to do my research on that. It's
based on the play right, not the book and play.
Speaker 1: Right the movie the movie is based on and in
like ninety three or something like that, Broadway turned it
into a musical. And this is what the movie, I'm.
Speaker 2: Sorry, not played music. It's based on the musical.
Speaker 1: With Cheeta Rivera. I believe it won a Tony Award.
But I had never heard any of the songs, which
that tells are right there. It's like, in thirty years,
I'd never heard one song from this musical. They suck.
I'm sorry, what did you think? I can't even remember
any of them?
Speaker 2: No, that sold. The last song is the Spider Woman
song is was still great?
Speaker 1: I didn't think? So can I just say, oh, you
know what I'm gonna say, make the point late he's
a lazy, lazy directing The line is the Spider Woman
in her velvet cape, which she sings several times, and
she's in the Spider Woman costume, which you probably have
seen in the film's you know, trailers, or whatever, And
every time she sings that line, she extends her arm
to fan out the cape that she's wearing Jayla, and
the cape is very clearly not velvet, and I don't
mean it's a different textile. I mean it's like this
gossamer seat throw thing. And they kept doing that and
I'm like, nobody involved stopped and said, oh wait, she's
not wearing a velvet cape. Like, nobody involved, not the
system designer, not Jela, not the director, nobody. Then there's
another moment where Molina is narrating a scene from a
nineteen forties musical. So you're watching j Lo on a
colorful set and people are dancing, and this bad girl
character Jlo's rival comes in and he's narrating this and
I can't remember what her rival's name comes in and
suddenly everybody stopped, and on screen, nobody stopped. Everyone is
still dancing, and I'm just like.
Speaker 2: Missed opportunity, just lazy.
Speaker 1: You're literally not paying attention to what you're putting on
the screen. That's right that and I know it's not
you know, oh her cape wasn't velvet. Well, okay, that's
not That's not a make or break thing with a film.
But it really indicates how lackluster this direction was and
how everybody involve the costume designer. Nobody, nobody said, shouldn't
we put her in a velvet cape?
Speaker 2: Anyway. My biggest disappointment, it's a little bit of a
spoiler here, is that in the book Molina the Queer Guy, Uh,
he recounts several movies. And this is pretty in in jaylyb.
Now it's just it's one big movie.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2: It doesn't make it say, because what he was trying
to do the director was to sort of like, uh, intersect,
I guess the the their story with the movie Molina
was recounting, and that's not what happens in the book,
which is a big disappointment because I was like, oh
my god, the Molina recounts like, I don't know, six
or five or six movies. I would wanted to see
all this variety, you know, all these changes of costume.
Speaker 1: Well, they didn't want to spend money. Apparently it was
such a cheap looking product.
Speaker 2: Sow. I was hoping that we would see more of that,
because that's the wonderful thing about the book. Please read
the book if you're interested, is that when you're reading
the book, you just become like, so, you know, distracted
and fascinated by all these movies that that Molina is
talking about. So every story is a different movie, and
I didn't see that. So that was a disappointment for me.
But I still enjoyed the movie again because I'm a
fan of the book and I'm always I'm a big
supporter of telling stories like that. Although when the critics
were saying, well, you know it's going nowhere, I was
a bit the appointed. But I never expected that this
kind of movie to get, you know, big, because it's
it's a queer story. Now.
Speaker 1: I just expected it to be better. Yeah, I can,
you know, catch it over the holidays. I'm not saying
it's terrible. I was just disappointed in it, And like
I said, j Lo just gives it everything she has,
and she deserved better. She deserved a better movie for
all the work she was putting into it.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because she's she's one of the producers, so
I was a little surprised. Like the velvet the cape thing,
that would have been something a.
Speaker 1: Lot of people involved are like, I don't know, they
didn't seem to be paying attention to the final product anyway.
That's our take on Kissing Spider Woman, and I think
that's it for this week. We will be back next
week with whatever crosses our eyes or crosses our desks.
Until then, take care of yourselves, love you mean it.
Speaker 2: But by
Speaker 1: The Creek and Advising Week in Advice Back Creek also
present UK to Extension