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<v Speaker 1>What's up everyone, and welcome back to the program. In

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<v Speaker 1>this episode, we're getting right back to that IgG transcript

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<v Speaker 1>information and we have mister Hellwig now being questioned on

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<v Speaker 1>the readdirect by Miss Taylor. Question, full genome sequencing is

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<v Speaker 1>the whole genome everything? Is that? What that means? Answer? Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>the whole genome sequence is the attempt to sequence the

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<v Speaker 1>entire genome if possible. Question Now, I heard you talking

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<v Speaker 1>about the prosecutor about what you didn't look at with

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<v Speaker 1>medical information. But I thought I heard you talk about

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<v Speaker 1>when you got down to the SNP those SNPs weren't

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<v Speaker 1>called from the whole genome? Did I hear that right? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I would have to rephrase that a little bit. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>Please do answer. When we're dealing with whole genome sequencing,

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<v Speaker 1>we're attempting to sequence the entire genome and it turns

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<v Speaker 1>into the raw file, that FASTQ file that I mentioned before. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>the next step is to bioinformatic pathways. The bioinformation pathway

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be targeting specific SNPs in question that

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<v Speaker 1>we want to solve the question for. We want to

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<v Speaker 1>answer the question for. In our case, these are genetic

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<v Speaker 1>genealogy or ancestry informative markers, those SNPs that provide information

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<v Speaker 1>for genealogy and ancestry. The bioinformatics that we would use

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<v Speaker 1>at IMF would be specifically targeting those particular SNPs, but

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<v Speaker 1>the raw data, the sequence data, still has the entire

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<v Speaker 1>list of SNPs. We just aren't pulling that piece of

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<v Speaker 1>information out. Question. So if you handed me a case

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<v Speaker 1>with your notes, protocols, and procedures, I could look at

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<v Speaker 1>what you did at whole Genome Sequencing and know you

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<v Speaker 1>were targeting only genealogy SNPs. Would that be fair to say? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>With the right knowledge base, Yes, the list of snips

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<v Speaker 1>are included where they are and the name on the

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<v Speaker 1>upload file are all there. You can do the research

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<v Speaker 1>to look at that and say, okay, these are genealogy

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<v Speaker 1>or ancestry informative markers. Question. If I had a file

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<v Speaker 1>with notes that talked about how bioinformatics were used, what

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<v Speaker 1>to produce, what kind of SNPs to produce, and handle

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<v Speaker 1>it to somebody like you, would you tell me these

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<v Speaker 1>are the ones that go to ancestry issues, that go

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<v Speaker 1>to genealogy issues. If I had the notes from somebody else, answer,

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<v Speaker 1>I would have to do some research to be honest

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<v Speaker 1>with you, The SNPs in question that are that we're

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<v Speaker 1>using or all derived from these genealogy databases. So it's

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<v Speaker 1>the ged match pro, family Tree, DNA, ancestry dot Com.

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<v Speaker 1>Those are the ones who have decided which SNPs to use,

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<v Speaker 1>and we just use them as a tool. So what

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<v Speaker 1>is the SNPs that best upload into the family Tree,

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<v Speaker 1>DNA law Enforcement database or ged match pro. And so

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<v Speaker 1>when we are bioinformatically pulling out the SNPs, we're doing

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<v Speaker 1>so under the direction of what they want from us.

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<v Speaker 1>Could I determine if there's a medical information within those

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<v Speaker 1>SNPs or SNP's with medical information, Yes, but it would

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<v Speaker 1>take a lot of research. Question. I just have a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of questions for you about what the prosecutor talked about.

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<v Speaker 1>Besides that, he asked about the chicken and egg problem

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<v Speaker 1>and different cases you've done and the hundreds of cases

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<v Speaker 1>that you've done before. You told us that it's important

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<v Speaker 1>to have protocols and procedures and keep your information, keep

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<v Speaker 1>your notes. Did you do that in those cases? Answer? Oh, yes, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>within the quality management system as a whole and adhering

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<v Speaker 1>to our procedures and protocols and the accreditation standard that

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<v Speaker 1>we derive to. It's all that. It's case documentation, laboratory report,

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<v Speaker 1>and then the foundation behind it, validation, summaries, competency testing

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<v Speaker 1>for personnel, their educational requirements. All of that has been

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<v Speaker 1>done in those cases and adhere to in our own

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<v Speaker 1>internal policies. Question. Thank you, that's it for me, the court,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you. You can step down. Does defense have other

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<v Speaker 1>Witnessess Taylor, your honor for the IgG. I have one

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<v Speaker 1>other witness this morning, the court. How long is that one,

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Taylor? I think she's a little bit longer the court.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's take thirty minutes for lunch. So they come back

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<v Speaker 1>from all of that, and now Leia Larkin is on

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<v Speaker 1>the stand, Miss Taylor. Good afternoon. Answer, good afternoon. Question

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<v Speaker 1>will you say your whole name? Answer? My name is

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<v Speaker 1>Lea Larkin. Question what do you do for work? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a genetic genealogist. Question what kind of background in

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<v Speaker 1>training do you have? Answer? I have an undergraduate degree

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<v Speaker 1>in biology from Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania, and I have

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<v Speaker 1>a PhD in biology, specifically in the field of botany

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<v Speaker 1>from the University of Texas aut Austin. Question how long

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<v Speaker 1>have you worked in genetic genealogy? Answer? I started doing

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<v Speaker 1>it as an amateur in I believe twenty thirteen, and

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<v Speaker 1>I started taking professional clients in twenty sixteen. Question what

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<v Speaker 1>does that mean you take professional clients? Answer? Most of

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<v Speaker 1>my clients are people like an adoptee or someone with

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<v Speaker 1>an unknown father who is trying to identify that particular relative,

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<v Speaker 1>so I can use their direct to consumer genealogy DNA test,

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<v Speaker 1>build family trees, and work to identify their biological family.

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<v Speaker 1>Question so your work happens after the SNP is produced? Answer? Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>question do I understand that? Right? Answer yes? Question do

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<v Speaker 1>you know what whole genome sequencing is? Answer? I do.

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<v Speaker 1>I have not done it myself, but my training in biology,

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<v Speaker 1>I understand what it is. Question based on your work

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<v Speaker 1>in genealogy, are you aware of what kinds of things

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<v Speaker 1>are contained in the whole genome sequencing file? Answer right.

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<v Speaker 1>A few of the earlier witnesses have said the genome

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<v Speaker 1>is basically the blueprint. It's the instruction manual for your body.

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<v Speaker 1>So it first of all, it makes you human, but

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<v Speaker 1>it also can determine your hair color, your physical traits,

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<v Speaker 1>your eye color, and there are a lot of genes

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<v Speaker 1>that are going to be associated with other things like

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<v Speaker 1>whether you have a propensity for Alzheimer's or your height,

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<v Speaker 1>your weight. Basically, all of these traits make us unique

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<v Speaker 1>for the most part, are coded in our genes, our

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<v Speaker 1>DNA in one or more of our genes. Question is

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<v Speaker 1>there any aspect in your field where medical information can

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<v Speaker 1>be known? Answer? Yes, So the DNA tests that are

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<v Speaker 1>used for genetic genealogy are called microarrays. So when you

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<v Speaker 1>spit in a tube and send it off to one

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<v Speaker 1>of these companies, they're going to do what's called a

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<v Speaker 1>micro array. A micro array test was designed for biomedical research,

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<v Speaker 1>they weren't designed for genealogy. Genealogy was like an afterthought.

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<v Speaker 1>These are tests that were created specifically to target physical

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<v Speaker 1>traits health traits, and it just happens to be useful

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<v Speaker 1>for genealogy as well. So even if I do a

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<v Speaker 1>test and I don't look at those traits, they're still

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<v Speaker 1>in that data file. Question when you get the work,

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<v Speaker 1>do you have to make a choice as to what

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<v Speaker 1>kind of database you're going to do your research? In? Answer? Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>So if I'm taking a client who, for example, is

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<v Speaker 1>an adoptee, I will have them test at Ancestry in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three in meter dot com. So those are two

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<v Speaker 1>companies where you actually have to send in spit sample

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<v Speaker 1>to get into their databases. They don't take data files

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<v Speaker 1>from other sources. The most cost effective way to do

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<v Speaker 1>this for an adoptee is to test at those two

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<v Speaker 1>companies and then take one of the data files you

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<v Speaker 1>get from say Ancestry, and upload it into the smaller databases.

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<v Speaker 1>That way, you don't have to pay for the whole

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<v Speaker 1>new test. You don't have to wait to mail it

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<v Speaker 1>off and have the lab run it and get the

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<v Speaker 1>results back. You can normally get your results in a

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<v Speaker 1>day or two after you do the upload. As for

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<v Speaker 1>an adoptee, there aren't really restrictions on which databases you

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<v Speaker 1>can use because they were all generally created for amateur genealogists. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>We've talked a little bit today about databases that have

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<v Speaker 1>restricted use. Answer yes, question what does that mean? Answer

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<v Speaker 1>so forensic genetic genie, which is also sometimes called investigative

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<v Speaker 1>genetic genealogy. And then there's the combination fig just because

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<v Speaker 1>we can't decide that is restricted to two main databases

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<v Speaker 1>there's Family Tree DNA, which we call ft DNA for short,

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<v Speaker 1>and then there's ged match, and those are the only

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<v Speaker 1>two databases of any significant size that allow fig searching

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<v Speaker 1>Ancestry forbids IT twenty three and meter forbids it my

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<v Speaker 1>Heritage forbids IT question, does ged match have two sides

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<v Speaker 1>to it? Answer? Yeah, Actually both ged match and Family

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<v Speaker 1>Tree DNA have specific upload process for forensic kits. We

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<v Speaker 1>call these test kits. So if you're normal, regular adoptee,

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<v Speaker 1>you can upload through the main layperson portal, but if

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<v Speaker 1>it's a forensic kit, it's supposed to go through a

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<v Speaker 1>special upload process at ged match. They call that ged

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<v Speaker 1>match Pro. Family Tree DNA does not have a special

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<v Speaker 1>name for it to my knowledge, but there's a special

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<v Speaker 1>process you're supposed to go through, and those kits that

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<v Speaker 1>are uploaded through the forensic portal are restricted in which

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<v Speaker 1>other kits they can use. The idea is that if

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<v Speaker 1>you don't want to participate in a forensic search, if

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<v Speaker 1>you're a lay person and you don't want to participate,

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<v Speaker 1>you can opt out. And so a kit that is

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<v Speaker 1>uploaded through the forensic portal should not be able to

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<v Speaker 1>see a lay person kit that is opted out. Question

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<v Speaker 1>do you know why these databases have these different I

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<v Speaker 1>guess abilities or rules? Answer? Yeah, so, I'm sure we're

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<v Speaker 1>all familiar with the Golden State killer case, at least

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<v Speaker 1>we've heard about it. That was the first big criminal

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<v Speaker 1>case that was solved using this type of genetic genealogy.

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<v Speaker 1>There had previously been one though unknown remains that had

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<v Speaker 1>been identified a few weeks earlier, but the Golden State

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<v Speaker 1>killer case is the one that got all the media attention.

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<v Speaker 1>On the one hand, there were people who were really

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<v Speaker 1>excited about the prospect of capturing violent criminals using this method.

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<v Speaker 1>At the flip side, there were a lot of genealogists

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<v Speaker 1>who were really concerned that there might be drawn into

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<v Speaker 1>criminal investigations without their knowledge or consent, and so the

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<v Speaker 1>community split. There were a lot of Facebook groups, A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of genetic genealogy is just done through Facebook groups,

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<v Speaker 1>and some of these Facebook groups just basically forbid it.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't talk about this at all because it was

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<v Speaker 1>causing too much conflict within the community. I went to

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<v Speaker 1>a conference shortly after the Golden State killer case was announced,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was a speaker, and they pulled all the

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<v Speaker 1>speakers aside and said don't talk about it at all.

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<v Speaker 1>You're not even allowed to mention it at all. This

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<v Speaker 1>is how contentious it was in the community. So the

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<v Speaker 1>databases realizing that this was a problem, so Ancestry twenty

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<v Speaker 1>three and meters and my Heritage all very quickly changed

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<v Speaker 1>their terms of service to say, no, you can't do

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<v Speaker 1>this on our database. Gd Match and family Tree DNA

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<v Speaker 1>over the course of the past few years have kind

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<v Speaker 1>of evolved these systems in response to public outcry about

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<v Speaker 1>privacy and consent, and also in response to some branches

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<v Speaker 1>and some missteps on the part of companies themselves and

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<v Speaker 1>on the part of some of the genetic genealogists. So

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<v Speaker 1>they evolved these systems to allow the users to opt

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<v Speaker 1>out if they don't want to participate. Question saw the

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<v Speaker 1>public outcry that was people that didn't want their profiles

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<v Speaker 1>searched by law enforcement answer right. Prior to this, there

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<v Speaker 1>had been occasional discussions in the genealogy community, people saying, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>the cops are going to get our data, and other

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<v Speaker 1>people were like, no, they only use codis, so they're

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<v Speaker 1>not going to use our databases. And it turns out

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<v Speaker 1>they were the golden State Killer case was being investigated.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure exactly when it started. I think twenty seventeen,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was arrested in April of twenty eighteen. So

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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement or law enforcement or genealogies working on behalf

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<v Speaker 1>of law enforcement were in fact using the databases without

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<v Speaker 1>the knowledge or consent of the regular person genealogists who

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<v Speaker 1>were in the databases question. So it was twenty eighteen

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<v Speaker 1>when the terms of service used in people's privacy rights

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<v Speaker 1>were recognized. So there's been a series of there's a

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<v Speaker 1>whole series of changes to the terms of service, so

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<v Speaker 1>I can't speak to precisely which dates and which databases

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<v Speaker 1>and which changes. I recall that my Heritage, within a

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<v Speaker 1>few weeks of the Golden State Killer being arrested, change

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<v Speaker 1>their terms of service to explicitly say not in our database.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, we're going to wrap up right here, and

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<v Speaker 1>in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>pick up with question. All right, let's talk about this case.

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<v Speaker 1>If you'd like to contact me, you can do that

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<v Speaker 1>at Bobby Kapuchi at protonmeil dot com. That's bo b

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<v Speaker 1>b Y c ap u Cci at Protonmeil dot com,

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<v Speaker 1>or if you prefer, you can find me on x

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<v Speaker 1>at Bobby Underscore c apu Cci. All of the links

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<v Speaker 1>that go of this episode can be found in the

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<v Speaker 1>description box