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Speaker 1: Welcome to the vdW Group. NOPERD is necessary if we
Speaker 1: were privitted by laws he terms of Convisions eighteen plus.
Speaker 3: You are now listening to true Murder the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them. Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 3: host journalist and author Dan.
Speaker 4: Zufanski Good Evening, someone you know of or even love
Speaker 4: is the person who will kill you. Usually that's true,
Speaker 4: but that is not what happened in twenty eighteen to
Speaker 4: college students in Iowa. Two young women who had everything
Speaker 4: to live for killed by two men with nothing to lose,
Speaker 4: completely random attacks. Neither case had anything else in common
Speaker 4: except they both shocked the nation and even the world.
Speaker 4: What's worse being murdered by a loved one or a
Speaker 4: stranger who jumps out of the bushes when you are
Speaker 4: most vulnerable. Previously published as Will Find You and Let's
Speaker 4: Do Murder, The Iowa Murders tells the shocking true crime
Speaker 4: stories of the senseless deaths of Molly Tibbets and Celia
Speaker 4: barquin Arosamenna. When Molly Tibbets disappeared on July eighteenth, two
Speaker 4: thousand and eighteen, her mother, Laura Calderwood, promised she would
Speaker 4: never quit searching. For five weeks in the summer of
Speaker 4: two thousand and eighteen, she searched, and the whole world
Speaker 4: watched Brooklyn, Iowa. Because this was more than a murder story,
Speaker 4: it also became one of the top political stories of
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen. Then, just after her killer led police Tomali's
Speaker 4: body hidden in a cornfield, news of another shocking, senseless
Speaker 4: homicide came from Iowa. Celia Barquin a Rousamana was ready
Speaker 4: to begin the next phase of her life, including a
Speaker 4: professional career and marriage. Colin Richards only wanted a woman
Speaker 4: to rape in murder. Selia had everything to live for
Speaker 4: and Colin had nothing to lose. They would come together
Speaker 4: one day in September twenty eighteen. Only one would survive.
Speaker 4: This is the shocking true crime story of two communities
Speaker 4: and two families coming to grips with the worst crime imaginable,
Speaker 4: knowing that even if the killers put behind bars today,
Speaker 4: another could be waiting tomorrow. The book that we're featuring
Speaker 4: this evening is The Iowa Murders, a shocking true crime
Speaker 4: story with my special guest journalist and author Rod Cackley.
Speaker 4: Welcome back to the program of thanks, thank you very
Speaker 4: much for this interview.
Speaker 5: Rod Cockley, Hi Dan, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much for this congratulations on this new release.
Speaker 4: Let's get right to July seventeenth, two thousand and eight,
Speaker 4: and tell us a little bit about this small place, Brooklyn, Iowa,
Speaker 4: and a little bit about this Molly Tibbets. And she's
Speaker 4: on her very regular run in the evening. So tell
Speaker 4: us a little bit about Brooklyn, Iowa and Molly Tibbets.
Speaker 5: Brooklyn and Iowa, Dan is a town of about fifteen hundred.
Speaker 5: I mean, this is small town America. And Molly's FETs
Speaker 5: her earbuds in place. She's going out for an evening
Speaker 5: run through the streets of Brooklyn. Now she does it
Speaker 5: every night. Even though she's not native to Brooklyn, Iowa.
Speaker 5: Everyone in town knows her, their use to watching her
Speaker 5: run by in the evening. She's so familiar that people
Speaker 5: mowing their lungs, are relaxing on their porches will wave
Speaker 5: to her as she goes by their houses. And really
Speaker 5: that's the kind of town to Brooklyn is, where they're
Speaker 5: so family they would just wave to someone who may
Speaker 5: be a stranger to them.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about her living arrangements and their boyfriend,
Speaker 4: Dalton Jack. She's a psychology major at the University of Iowa.
Speaker 4: Tell us the living arrangements and where her boyfriend and
Speaker 4: her brother are at the time when she goes for
Speaker 4: this run.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're right, Dan, as you said, Molly Timmis is
Speaker 5: a psychology major at the University of Iowa. She and
Speaker 5: their boyfriend, Dalton Jack, are living with his brother now.
Speaker 5: Both of them are out of town at the time
Speaker 5: on a construction project in another town in Iowa. So
Speaker 5: Molly is at home alone pretty much now. And you know,
Speaker 5: this is a time where she's this is a summer
Speaker 5: off from the University of Iowa, and she's young freedom.
Speaker 5: She's you know, living on her own, setting up housekeeping
Speaker 5: with her boyfriend, Dalton, the guy she loves, the plans
Speaker 5: to marry, and so this is a big time for her.
Speaker 5: This is a time of real you know, young freedom.
Speaker 5: I guess there's a way to put it.
Speaker 4: She's also working in the summer at a children's day
Speaker 4: camp at a regional medical center and the kids love
Speaker 4: her and she loves her job. Everyone thinks she's great.
Speaker 4: And she's also when she's running. She uses this fit
Speaker 4: Bit activity tracker, and she's got a car phone with
Speaker 4: her on that run. So tell us about a little
Speaker 4: bit about this run that she does usually goes around
Speaker 4: the same route. You say that people in this small
Speaker 4: community know who she is. They're very familiar with her.
Speaker 4: She's out on this run July seventeen, two thousand and eight.
Speaker 4: What happens on this normally mundane or routine run of Molly's.
Speaker 5: But as you said, Dan, she's carrying a fit Bit
Speaker 5: activity tracker and a smartphone. That's very important to remember.
Speaker 5: As she's going on her usual run. All of a sudden,
Speaker 5: a car another one of the neighbors, Devin Riley, sees
Speaker 5: or runs by his house. He's on his portion. He
Speaker 5: waves the load to her, like he does almost every night. Well,
Speaker 5: he doesn't see anything unusual that Molly does. Suddenly there's
Speaker 5: a car behind her. Now, it's not that unusual to
Speaker 5: see somebody on the road at this time of the night,
Speaker 5: but this guy just doesn't give up. You know, she'll
Speaker 5: slow down, expecting him to pass her. He doesn't pass her.
Speaker 5: He swows down. She runs faster, thinking she can get
Speaker 5: away from him. He drives faster, so obviously he's following her.
Speaker 5: It's a black car, a car that she does not recognize.
Speaker 5: When she turns, she decides to turn right and left.
Speaker 5: He follows her. When she stops running, she stops driving.
Speaker 5: Now she's very worried. She's concentrating on the run. She's
Speaker 5: a good runner, she's a practice runner, she's a trained runner.
Speaker 5: So the fact that she's running, you know, she figures
Speaker 5: she can out run this guy if nothing else. She
Speaker 5: looks back and the car passes her. Finally, finally, the
Speaker 5: car passes her, so Molly figures everything's okay. She wasn't
Speaker 5: staping to be worried, but that only her relief. On
Speaker 5: the last moments, the car circles the block, and all
Speaker 5: of a sudden, it's back behind her again. Finally, she
Speaker 5: decides to stop and confront the guy. She is not
Speaker 5: going to put up with this, and that is in
Speaker 5: an instant she realizes that she was wrong to do that.
Speaker 5: She hears the car door closed, she doesn't look back.
Speaker 5: She knows it's trouble. Quickly she's running to Now she's
Speaker 5: running as fast as she can. She's forgotten about confronting
Speaker 5: the guy. She just takes off. She looks back over
Speaker 5: her shoulder. She's running even faster. Can't believe is what
Speaker 5: he sees. The guy thought of his car, and now
Speaker 5: he's running after her. She figures that she can outrun him,
Speaker 5: perhaps even outside him. But she grabs her smartphone and
Speaker 5: practically shoves it into the guy's face. He's not a
Speaker 5: big guy, a couple inches taller than Molly, about five
Speaker 5: foot six, thick, black chair, neatly trimmed mustache, and goateee.
Speaker 5: He grabs her smartphone as she shoves it into his face.
Speaker 5: They're running side by side, now matching her pace step
Speaker 5: for step. She yells, I'm going to call the police,
Speaker 5: waving the phone at him. He doesn't back off. You
Speaker 5: think he might, but he doesn't. And now it's a
Speaker 5: real fight. Now this guy is fighting her. She's never
Speaker 5: been in a real fight before. And you know, as
Speaker 5: I wrote, in the blink of her eyes on the
Speaker 5: state of his and the stare of his, she sees
Speaker 5: the end of her life.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you right. Then the next July nineteenth, Molly doesn't
Speaker 4: show up for work at this medical center. And of
Speaker 4: course this is unlike her and Dalton, her boyfriend had
Speaker 4: texted her that morning and there was no response, so
Speaker 4: he calls her mother, Laura Calderwood. So what happens Devin,
Speaker 4: our partner, me, Dalton and Molly and the search for
Speaker 4: her that morning.
Speaker 5: Well they start. He's worried immediately. You know, they're young
Speaker 5: in love till they're youth, protecting each other, back and forth,
Speaker 5: good morning, I love you, that kind of thing. He
Speaker 5: does that. She does not respond, as she does every day.
Speaker 5: So now he's worried he doesn't hear from her. He
Speaker 5: tries her again and again. Then he calls her mother, Laura.
Speaker 5: Laura's worry too, but she's thinking, hey, Brooklyn's too small
Speaker 5: to you know. She calls Molly. She's afraid something's wrong.
Speaker 5: Then work the daycamp center calls Dalton and her. Laura
Speaker 5: calls the center. All of a sudden, she knows something's wrong.
Speaker 5: She's a mother, Laura can just feel it. Something is
Speaker 5: definitely wrong. Brooklyn doesn't have its own police department, the
Speaker 5: how she County Sheriff's Office handles law enforcement in Brooklyn, Iowa.
Speaker 5: So Laura calls the Sheriff's department. But before she and
Speaker 5: before she goes to bed that night, she sends a
Speaker 5: text to Molly's phone. She texts, I love you, We're
Speaker 5: looking for you. We'll find you no matter what, and
Speaker 5: she tries to go to sleep. They begin searching for
Speaker 5: her immediately, and then about ten days later, in Kearney, Missouri,
Speaker 5: police get a tip. You know, the word goes out.
Speaker 5: It's a small town, so you know, the next morning,
Speaker 5: everyone knows that Molly's missing. Everybody's involved in the search,
Speaker 5: and they all volunteering to help.
Speaker 4: But you have the Iowa Department of Criminal Investigation and
Speaker 4: the FBI involved because of this. What they determine ferdie
Speaker 4: On is an abduction, don't they correct?
Speaker 5: Yeah, the correct They're assuming that it's an abduction. They
Speaker 5: don't really have any eyewitnesses, but Chess everything is. They're
Speaker 5: checking surveillance video from gas stations and convenience doors at
Speaker 5: points where the kidnapper might have stopped and wore racing
Speaker 5: out of town. There is filming that she's been kidnapped.
Speaker 5: They get a chip that she was seen at a
Speaker 5: gas station that turns out in Kurney, Missouri, about two
Speaker 5: hundred and thirty miles away from Brooklyn. That turns out
Speaker 5: to be false alarm. Then they go to a hog
Speaker 5: farmer's house in Guernsey, asking to search the property without
Speaker 5: a warrant. Why that farm, Well, Molly was last being
Speaker 5: jogging within a fifteen minute drive of the property. Remember,
Speaker 5: they can track her cell phone, her smartphone, and they
Speaker 5: can track that bit bit tracker, so they have an
Speaker 5: idea of where she is. So now they're talking to
Speaker 5: this farmer, Wayne Cheney, says he doesn't have anything to hide.
Speaker 5: He lets the FBI spend a couple of hours inside
Speaker 5: his house in garage taking photos. The investigative team asks
Speaker 5: Wayne to go to the local firehouse with them for
Speaker 5: an interview. He does this without a lawyer, and they
Speaker 5: spend two hours together talking. Wayne tells them, like everybody else,
Speaker 5: he's heard about Molly's disappearance, but he's never met her,
Speaker 5: doesn't know who she is. After this interview, he allows
Speaker 5: them to keep this cell phone overnight so that they
Speaker 5: can check his phone records. The Wayne comes out of
Speaker 5: this and talks to a reporter and says he thought
Speaker 5: it was all a waste of time, but oh well.
Speaker 5: After they finished searching the farm, the FBI spends more
Speaker 5: time walking through about a mile of dishes near the farm.
Speaker 5: Do they have so much interest in the land of
Speaker 5: the farmers simply because of the location. But no, there's more,
Speaker 5: there's a potential clue. They find their red shirt, not
Speaker 5: unlike the shirts Molly and the other people who work
Speaker 5: at that day camp wear every day. The shirt was
Speaker 5: discovered by a guy mowing his lawn near the Wine
Speaker 5: and Wildlife Reserve, so he called sheriff Sheriff's deputies, and
Speaker 5: it turns out that Wayne Chaney, even though this had
Speaker 5: nothing to do with dollyge Wayne Cheney pled guilty to
Speaker 5: stocking charges twice in nine and twenty fourteen, and so
Speaker 5: they've got a real interest in Wayne Chaney at this
Speaker 5: point and in Wayne's firms.
Speaker 4: However, they don't find any information or evidence in that
Speaker 4: extensive search, and he's cooperative, and there are other people
Speaker 4: that they looked at. However, what they still were looking
Speaker 4: at was trying to get video surveillance from the business's
Speaker 4: local businesses but also other homes. So while they were
Speaker 4: doing their regular routine investigation, they were still analyzing some
Speaker 4: of those and also putting out information to the public
Speaker 4: for leads in this case as well.
Speaker 5: Didn't they right exactly? And you know, the whole community
Speaker 5: starts searching. Four hundred spontaneously started searching the day after
Speaker 5: Molly went missing, But the County Sheriff's office says, everybody
Speaker 5: stand down. If they're needed. The world go out. It's
Speaker 5: hard to coordinate four hundred people, and when the police
Speaker 5: aren't in charge of it, who knows what they're going
Speaker 5: to do, what evidence they might contaminate, for instance, what
Speaker 5: crime seems they might contaminate. So they tell people who
Speaker 5: are searching to just go home, stand down. If we
Speaker 5: need you, we'll put the word out on social media.
Speaker 5: So what they do then is, speaking of social media,
Speaker 5: they're honing in on Molly's digital footprint. Dozens of search warrants,
Speaker 5: their files. They gain access to Molly's social media accounts
Speaker 5: along with devices like that smartphone and the fifth bit,
Speaker 5: and that opens the door to a ton of information.
Speaker 5: It's amazing how they can track you and how they
Speaker 5: tracked Molly and your movements on that with that smartphone
Speaker 5: and the fifth bit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting you you write that via the GPS
Speaker 4: they could see exactly her running and then traveling later
Speaker 4: in a vehicle, because they could make no other conclusion
Speaker 4: other than that she was moving so fast, so in
Speaker 4: almost in for these people, was the evidence more than
Speaker 4: a very strong circumstantial evidence that this is what happened
Speaker 4: to her, and then she was certainly abducted.
Speaker 5: And exactly right right, Yeah, that first chapter where I
Speaker 5: described her run, that really where I described the run
Speaker 5: that really is taken from her the GPS information. That's
Speaker 5: what the GPS track of shows happen. They're running, the starting,
Speaker 5: the stopping, the turning left, the turning right, that kind
Speaker 5: of thing. And then what they do is they get
Speaker 5: on Facebook, Twitter and other social media to figure out
Speaker 5: the kind of person that Nolly is or the person
Speaker 5: that she was, I guess you should say, and they're
Speaker 5: surprised to see nothing but positive stapments about BOLLI. You know,
Speaker 5: there are haters on Facebook, but nobody he's Molly. Everybody
Speaker 5: loves this woman. So that brings a whole other thing
Speaker 5: into this where they're starting to figure out her personality.
Speaker 5: Then they want to find out who she has been
Speaker 5: chatting with recently, what they talked about, if there's anything
Speaker 5: that's relevant to the investigation. The team believes right now
Speaker 5: that Molly is alive. They're holding out hoping they really
Speaker 5: believe that she is alive. The investigative team, I mean
Speaker 5: to say, they do think she was abducted, but they
Speaker 5: believe at this point she is alive. However, people who
Speaker 5: know her, the people who know Molly, tell the police
Speaker 5: they cannot believe that Molly was taken without a fight.
Speaker 5: They really believe that. Now. Molly is something of an
Speaker 5: athlete too, okay, and she may never have been in
Speaker 5: a real fight, but she is a strong athletic woman,
Speaker 5: and they can't believe that anyone would take her away
Speaker 5: if she was still alive.
Speaker 4: That Jesus has an opportunity to stop for a second
Speaker 4: for these messages.
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Speaker 4: You talked about everybody that knows her thought that a
Speaker 4: stranger couldn't trick her or overpower because she was a
Speaker 4: person that was in great shape. And you also talk
Speaker 4: about Rob Tibbets, her father. Again, they go to the
Speaker 4: national media and ABC's Good Morning America, and he just
Speaker 4: wants to focus on bringing her back. As you say,
Speaker 4: everyone wants to hope and believe that she is still alive.
Speaker 4: And a reward, you say, goes up from one hundred
Speaker 4: and seventy thousand to two hundred and sixty thousand dollars
Speaker 4: and flyers at baseball games. So there's an incredible effort
Speaker 4: in the community by Rob Tibbots and others and friends
Speaker 4: to be able to let people know about this search
Speaker 4: for this woman.
Speaker 5: And now you talk of the family. I'm sorry. The
Speaker 5: family dynamic here too, is really interesting. Dan Rob Gibbitts
Speaker 5: lives in San Francisco. He and Laurel Cawleywood are divorced,
Speaker 5: So here you have the ex husband flying into Brooklyn,
Speaker 5: Iowa to take part in this and I thought that
Speaker 5: was just a really interesting part of the story.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. Now you talk about August twentieth, so not too
Speaker 4: far along. But police get a home surveillance video from
Speaker 4: someone I'm from a house on July eighteenth. Now what
Speaker 4: do they see in this video and what do they conclude?
Speaker 5: Now, this was a real break. A month and two
Speaker 5: days after Molly vanished, after tracking down thousands of leaves
Speaker 5: and citizen tips, they finally get a videotape that could
Speaker 5: crack the case wide open. It's the home surveillance video.
Speaker 5: It shows Molly running by a home on July eighteenth.
Speaker 5: On the tape, they can see a black Chevy Malibu
Speaker 5: that seems to be following Molly, speeding up and slowing
Speaker 5: down as she does, and finally stopping just like the
Speaker 5: GPS and bullet told them. Now, if this isn't the
Speaker 5: person who kidnapped Malli, they figure he's at least or
Speaker 5: this person he or she is at least one of
Speaker 5: the last people to ever see Molly alive. And so
Speaker 5: they got they have to find this car. This the
Speaker 5: description of the Malibu goes out to every police official
Speaker 5: in Iowa. Every set of law enforcement eyes is looking
Speaker 5: for this black Malibu that the FBI is afraid carried
Speaker 5: Molly to her final resting place. A County death betimes
Speaker 5: the car.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, go ahead, Dan, No I was gonna ask
Speaker 4: you talk about a deputy being alert and spotting the car.
Speaker 4: What happens?
Speaker 5: Yeah, right right on the road, a county deputy spots
Speaker 5: the car and pulls it over, walks up very slowly
Speaker 5: on the side of the car, and approaches the driver's window.
Speaker 5: It's a man alone in the Chevy Malibu. And there
Speaker 5: he meets Christian Bahina Rivera. A computer check shows the
Speaker 5: twenty five year old has no history of any criminal
Speaker 5: conduct with any police department of the area. Rivera has
Speaker 5: been working at a local dairy farm for about four years.
Speaker 5: But this isn't interesting. He's been working at the dairy
Speaker 5: farm under a different name, the name of John Bud.
Speaker 5: Now Rivera can't produce any identification under either name John
Speaker 5: Budd or Christian Vahina Rivera. Here's another point, very difficult
Speaker 5: conversation between the deputy and Rivera because neither is fluent
Speaker 5: in the other's language. Rovera is a native of Mexico.
Speaker 5: He answers some questions and they are able to put
Speaker 5: a few things together. He of the deputy.
Speaker 4: Now you say that they have the problem of getting
Speaker 4: a translator. So they find a personal name an officer
Speaker 4: Iowa City police officer named Pamela Romero, and she's fluent
Speaker 4: in Spanish. Tell us what happens she gets involved, Well.
Speaker 5: She makes a real connection with Rovera. He opens right
Speaker 5: up to her. It's not just that they're fluent in
Speaker 5: Spanish together, it's he just seems very comfortable with Pamela. Yeah,
Speaker 5: they just open up and he starts talking and tells
Speaker 5: the whole story, not the story about Molly, but he
Speaker 5: just is comfortable. He does a d gives a DNA
Speaker 5: sample with no problem at all. He agrees to let
Speaker 5: the officer a search inside the car, his car, the Malibu,
Speaker 5: and the officers find a blood stain at the truck,
Speaker 5: or at least it looks like a blood state of
Speaker 5: the trunk. They've got to get back to the forensic lab.
Speaker 5: Of course, that's enough. They figure to bring Rovera into
Speaker 5: headquarters for more questioning. He's told they can ride with
Speaker 5: the city police car and be brought back to his
Speaker 5: Malibu when they're finished Officer Romero. Pamela Romero asks in
Speaker 5: Spanish if he'll go with the FEDS and the Iowa
Speaker 5: City cops. Rivera agrees, and so then they get him
Speaker 5: in for questioning. They've been talking to him so far
Speaker 5: for about ninety minutes. The interview really begins now they
Speaker 5: it's five oh five in the evening. They take ten breaks,
Speaker 5: but other than that, not a stop questioning, just Officer
Speaker 5: Pam Romero and Rivera until about eleven thirty at night.
Speaker 5: So you're looking at six and a half hours of interrogation.
Speaker 5: And then and only then, as Rovera read his Miranda.
Speaker 4: Rights, you say that they believe he believe he's implicated
Speaker 4: himself in her murder. And the only question left is
Speaker 4: there's her body?
Speaker 5: Right, That is the only question left? Where is the body?
Speaker 5: And so on August twenty one, twenty eighteen, Rivera, you know,
Speaker 5: they ask him what happened, you know, and he's really
Speaker 5: struggling to tell the story of his encounter with Molly.
Speaker 5: He says, she tried to run away but couldn't. He
Speaker 5: talks about the fight they had on you know, for
Speaker 5: the cell phone, the smartphone, and then he says, the
Speaker 5: next thing I remember is taking her body out of
Speaker 5: the trunk. I saw a blood on the side of
Speaker 5: her head. Then he talks about putting her body into
Speaker 5: a cornfield and covering it up with corn stalks to
Speaker 5: protect her from the stunt.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So he also talks about this again very convenient
Speaker 4: that he got mad when she pulled out the phone
Speaker 4: and then went by. He says, when I get upset,
Speaker 4: I blocked my memory or again I guess he mentioned
Speaker 4: where he is blocked. He can't remember, but of course
Speaker 4: then the next thing he does remember is taking her
Speaker 4: body out of the trunk and he saw the right
Speaker 4: side of her head.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, and taking that he takes the police to
Speaker 5: where he left the bocket too.
Speaker 4: So m So they find this body, it's many days decomposed.
Speaker 4: What else do they find forensically in terms of what
Speaker 4: has happened to her? Stab wound, wise and otherwise.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, they it was o vicious stabbing attack. Stabbed
Speaker 5: in the head, stabbed multiple times. They find her clothing
Speaker 5: had been ripped off of her and left in the area.
Speaker 5: It's a very bloody, floating crime scene.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you say that she into her chest numerous times
Speaker 4: and even broke through her her skulp. There was evidence
Speaker 4: of a violent struggle, defense wounds on her hands, and
Speaker 4: she didn't die quickly.
Speaker 5: Right, right, right exactly.
Speaker 4: Now he has a one million bonds, so he's not
Speaker 4: going anywhere. And after this reward had got up to
Speaker 4: four hundred thousand dollars and fifteen one hundred tips, they
Speaker 4: finally have this perpetrator behind bars. But now this case, again,
Speaker 4: the particulars of the case are interesting enough for national
Speaker 4: and international media. But now because they find out the
Speaker 4: immigration status of this person, what does this story become?
Speaker 5: Now it becomes a political story. Now, former President Donald
Speaker 5: Trump tells an audience at a rally in Charleston, West Virginia,
Speaker 5: you've heard about today the illegal alien coming in varies
Speaker 5: badly from Mexico. And you saw what happened to that incredible,
Speaker 5: beautiful young woman. Should not have happened illegally in our country.
Speaker 5: Trump says, We've got a huge impact, but the laws
Speaker 5: are so bad, the immigration laws, that's such a disgrace.
Speaker 5: We're getting it changed, but we have to get more Republicans.
Speaker 5: So this becomes a very political. Remember this is we're
Speaker 5: talking the off term election here, this is twenty eighteen.
Speaker 5: This is an on mid term election, I guess I
Speaker 5: should say. And so this becomes a very big political story.
Speaker 4: It's interesting too. Surprising that the farm where he worked,
Speaker 4: they asked, and again they've got numerous hundreds of threatening calls.
Speaker 4: Why did they get threats against them? And what was
Speaker 4: the defense of the owner of that farm in regards
Speaker 4: to hiring this illegal immigrant.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is the Arabee Farms near Brooklyn, Iowa. And
Speaker 5: they are totally taken by surprise. They said that they
Speaker 5: did their bet. They received close to one hundred threatening
Speaker 5: phone calls after ten o'clock in the morning August twenty second,
Speaker 5: So this is really blowing up the people in depth threats,
Speaker 5: what have you? And was the thing is? They are
Speaker 5: asking the question is if Rivera was in the country illegally,
Speaker 5: how did he gain employment at the Arab and Dan
Speaker 5: Yerrab claims the staff that everything required by the federal
Speaker 5: and state laws to ensure that Rivera was in the
Speaker 5: US legally. They had no idea. They claimed that he
Speaker 5: was here illegally and they just found out in the
Speaker 5: past twenty four hours. They say that the name John
Speaker 5: Budd that he gave them was a fake name. They said,
Speaker 5: it's really the federal and state bureaucracies that fell down
Speaker 5: on the job here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you talk about to August twenty seconds the first
Speaker 4: court appearance. And in this small town, Christiane's girlfriend Iris
Speaker 4: Moneris also went to school with Molly Till. But another person,
Speaker 4: Bailey Gibson, comes forward to say that he followed her
Speaker 4: sister in the same way, using the same and when
Speaker 4: she heard the report it struck a nerve in her
Speaker 4: to say that we're very similar. And August twenty third
Speaker 4: is the funeral from Molly tell us a little bit
Speaker 4: right now.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the funeral. It doesn't matter if you're there Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim,
Speaker 5: or atheist. At Saint Patrick Catholic Church in Brooklyn, everyone's welcome,
Speaker 5: but especially true this evening August twenty third, for the
Speaker 5: funeral of Malli. Father Corey Close calls her a beautiful
Speaker 5: young woman, but he knows evil is irrational, so we
Speaker 5: could never wrap our minds around in fully. Then others
Speaker 5: in Brooklyn are shocked for a different reason. Chloe Redding
Speaker 5: says it's terrible to see the suspected killer on TV
Speaker 5: and realized that she was friends with him on Facebook.
Speaker 5: So you talk about that small town, So many people
Speaker 5: in this town knew both of these people. Rivera and Molly.
Speaker 4: Yes, while he's a waiting court, let's use this as
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Speaker 4: murder one nine nine. Now we were talking about him
Speaker 4: getting ready, Christiane getting ready and his defense attorney's getting
Speaker 4: ready for this this trial. And then on September seventeenth,
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, we're talking about a few weeks later, Celia
Speaker 4: Barquin Rosamanna is playing golf by herself at the Coldwater
Speaker 4: Golf Links in amas Iowa. As this is a public course,
Speaker 4: tell us who this Celia Arosamena is, and a little
Speaker 4: bit more about this, a little bit more about her life,
Speaker 4: and a little bit about more about this golf plan
Speaker 4: that she has planned for golf that day.
Speaker 5: Okay, quite simply, Celia is one of the best women
Speaker 5: amateur golfers in the world at this point. Earlier this
Speaker 5: year or that year of the twenty two year old
Speaker 5: won the European Legs Amateur Championship with a course record
Speaker 5: sixty three. She qualified for the twenty eighteen US Women's
Speaker 5: Open before missing the cut. She captured the twenty eighteen
Speaker 5: Big Twelve individual title and was honored as Iowa Stags
Speaker 5: Female Athlete of the Year. She comes from Spain and
Speaker 5: town of fifteen thousand in Spain's Twente San Miguel, Spain.
Speaker 5: She is now played her eligible at Iowa State University.
Speaker 5: Remember Maui went to the University of Iowa. Now Celia
Speaker 5: is working on her degree at Iowa State University. She's
Speaker 5: no longer eligible to play on the university's team, but
Speaker 5: she is still obviously a very talented amateur golfer. Shoulder
Speaker 5: length blonde hair, blue eyes, bright, infectious smile, bubbly personality.
Speaker 5: She's half rolled away from her family in Spain, but
Speaker 5: her mother has always said that Celia is delighted with
Speaker 5: her life in Iowa. Now this morning, she's alone. She's
Speaker 5: on the fourth te at Cold Water, which is one
Speaker 5: of the best public courses in the state of.
Speaker 4: Iowa and so Okay. So what happens to alert people
Speaker 4: that something has gone wrong? You talk about four guys
Speaker 4: that were let her go ahead, realizing that she was
Speaker 4: going to get through the course much quicker than them,
Speaker 4: And then they find some evidence that something has gone awry.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's four middle aged guys and they know that
Speaker 5: Celia is going to play a lot faster than them,
Speaker 5: so they allow her to play it through. An hour later, Harley,
Speaker 5: one of the guys is Harley Harley Thornton. That's we're
Speaker 5: calling him the leader of the sports them here the
Speaker 5: Holly Spotsom arrives at the ninth te and they can
Speaker 5: see that something's wrong. Celia's golf bag, several keys, her rangefinder,
Speaker 5: and her hat are all rying on the ground. But
Speaker 5: there's no sign of Celia. I mean, that's not something
Speaker 5: you see on the golf course. Nobody abandons their clubs
Speaker 5: in the middle of the fair way, ever, and there's
Speaker 5: one more sign of trouble Celia's cell phone. Harley finds
Speaker 5: it on the ground too. Now they haven't heard any
Speaker 5: sounds that would suggest to Celia was in danger. No scheams,
Speaker 5: no sounds of the struggle, no signs of the struggle
Speaker 5: except this stuff left on the course. But shortly after
Speaker 5: ten am, Harley calls cold Water's Pro Shop to report
Speaker 5: what they have found, and then he calls nine to
Speaker 5: one one and minutes later the Ames Police Department receives
Speaker 5: a corresponding call from a nine to one to one
Speaker 5: dispatcher notifying them of Parley's concern. So the police arrived
Speaker 5: in cold Water at ten twenty four, about twenty four
Speaker 5: minutes after Harley's forsom found what they found on the
Speaker 5: ninth key.
Speaker 4: You talk about this, Mitch Mortvitt is on the case
Speaker 4: and he's the assistant director of the Iowa Department of
Speaker 4: Criminal Investigation. How is it that a police officer and
Speaker 4: Ames heath Rop spots Dalton Barnes. Who's Dalton Barnes And
Speaker 4: why does he stop him? And what does he have
Speaker 4: to say?
Speaker 5: Okay, we should we should backtrack a little bit see
Speaker 5: the golf course. And they did find for a body
Speaker 5: another group of golf respound's body on the course in
Speaker 5: upon Now Heith Rops spots Dalton Barnes. Dalton Barnes is
Speaker 5: a twenty two year old who he's one of these
Speaker 5: guys who has just never made it in right. He
Speaker 5: got out of the Skate prison June fourth of this
Speaker 5: year after serving about seven months for violating terms of
Speaker 5: approbation that he'd been sentenced to for a condition in
Speaker 5: Burglarians and other related tribes. He's been troubled. He's been
Speaker 5: troubled his whole life. He's living homeless, living in a
Speaker 5: tent in an area near that golf course. He becomes
Speaker 5: a person of interest when Officer heath Rops spots Dalton
Speaker 5: Barns walking north on the trail, the trail that led
Speaker 5: from the golf course and the general area where Celia's
Speaker 5: body was found. So they're looking at this guy. You
Speaker 5: can just see there's trouble in him. Heath thropped. His officer,
Speaker 5: Rob just knows right away there's trouble in this guy.
Speaker 4: So how does he proceed and what does he What
Speaker 4: does he blurt out in this conversation with this heath
Speaker 4: Rop officer, He says that he is They asking if
Speaker 4: he's aware of this woman being killed, and he says,
Speaker 4: be blurred, So what did Colin do to her? So
Speaker 4: the police ask why would he ask that question?
Speaker 5: Right? Yeah? And because he as Colin gets close to them,
Speaker 5: So they go to the place where they've been living together,
Speaker 5: and Dalton tells Roe that he and Colin each have
Speaker 5: attention in this area. Dalton and Colin Richards are sharing
Speaker 5: a temporary squatter's encampment and He just knows something's wrong
Speaker 5: with Colin, because Colin's been talking. He's been talking crazy.
Speaker 5: He's been talking about finding a woman to kill. That's
Speaker 5: what he wants.
Speaker 4: And they know that these tents where they're living, they
Speaker 4: have a view. And Dalton mentions this as well, that
Speaker 4: they both have a view of these golfers all day.
Speaker 4: That's how close they are to this golf.
Speaker 5: Course, right exactly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, now you talk about him, the Colin Richards, and
Speaker 4: you talked about you just mentioned that he had just
Speaker 4: been in prison. But they look, police look, and they
Speaker 4: find it. Even though he's homeless, unemployed, he has time
Speaker 4: to set up a Facebook page where he celebrates drinking
Speaker 4: coffee and murder. Weirdly enough, Yeah.
Speaker 5: He does with a phone. You know, with a smartphone
Speaker 5: you can do anything. He has a smartphone, and he
Speaker 5: sets up a Facebook page and he celebrates and says
Speaker 5: let's do murder. He writes, let's do murder on his homepage.
Speaker 4: He's also been reported that he's been carrying a big
Speaker 4: knife and this is obviously Dalton saying this and with
Speaker 4: a serrated edge. So police are very interested in this information.
Speaker 4: It doesn't sound like it sounds very credible, doesn't it
Speaker 4: to them?
Speaker 5: Yes, it does, you know, Dalton shots when he says
Speaker 5: his friend has been talking about an irresistible urge to
Speaker 5: rape and murder a woman, and he's been carrying a
Speaker 5: blade that's big enough to cut wood, a blade with
Speaker 5: a serda edge. It sounds like the knife that might
Speaker 5: have been the weapon used to kill Celia. Other officers
Speaker 5: working the case who have a history with Colin remember
Speaker 5: that it's not unusual for him to carry a knife,
Speaker 5: and so they're very interested in him. And as they're
Speaker 5: working and investigating, all of a sudden, Colin walks right
Speaker 5: into the investigation. He walks right into the middle of it. Yeah, liter,
Speaker 5: He scratches on his face, he's been in a fight.
Speaker 5: He drops the black backpack on the ground about ten
Speaker 5: feet from the tent, and the bag is his because
Speaker 5: it has his name on it, see Richards. And he
Speaker 5: sits down and sticks his left hand into the dirt
Speaker 5: while the detectives are talking to him.
Speaker 4: Wow, So they ask him why he's why he's scratched.
Speaker 4: They ask him why his hand is bleeding, so he
Speaker 4: gives some unreasonable excuse for that, and they ask her
Speaker 4: ask him about his whereabouts. So that questioning does not
Speaker 4: satisfy them. They take him to the hospital to document
Speaker 4: his wound, which will they believe it will help them
Speaker 4: when the autopsy is performed. What happens in that autopsy?
Speaker 4: What do they find out?
Speaker 5: Well, after the quick interview, they take Colin to the
Speaker 5: Married Greeley Medical Center z ARE to get the hand
Speaker 5: damage and they had to ask him to pull it
Speaker 5: out of the dirt. He was obviously hiding his hand
Speaker 5: in the dirt. And they want to compare colin injury
Speaker 5: to what they've learned from tomorrow's autopsy about the stab
Speaker 5: wounds and cuts to what they will learn from the
Speaker 5: stab wounds and cuts they killed Celia, and they find
Speaker 5: a similarity. They see that there's a relationship between the
Speaker 5: hand wound and the wounds that killed Celia.
Speaker 4: Right, So now you talk.
Speaker 5: About the comtary the cuts matched. The puncture wounds could
Speaker 5: could have come from any knife with a four inch blade,
Speaker 5: So it's going to be hard to pin down the weapon.
Speaker 5: About the stab wounds, the slashes, the cuts on Colin's
Speaker 5: hand and Celia's body to match the em spine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you write that September twentieth, Thanks to a grad fire.
Speaker 4: The Ames Police think that they discovered the knife used
Speaker 4: to kill Celia and a long serrated knife with two
Speaker 4: serration serrated patterns.
Speaker 5: So right, right, exactly, the blaze broke out inside of
Speaker 5: the rogat three seventeen Washington Avenue, the same small two
Speaker 5: bedroom house where police talked to Chris Johnson about Colin
Speaker 5: and Richards three days ago, the day they discovered Cellia's
Speaker 5: body on the golf course pond. And now they get
Speaker 5: into the house as part of their fire investigation, and
Speaker 5: they meet Christopher Johnson, the homeowner, and they spat a
Speaker 5: large serrated knife with two serrated serration patterns. The blade
Speaker 5: is longer than four inches, nothing unusual there, a typical
Speaker 5: kitchen knife. But remember the autopsy results showed a knife
Speaker 5: just like that cut Celia. So now the prime suspect
Speaker 5: in the homicide investigation was seen at this house three
Speaker 5: days ago, and they find a knife very similar like
Speaker 5: a cassette, to one of the knives that cast Celia.
Speaker 5: It turns out that Colin showered there at the house
Speaker 5: and changed his clothes at the house, and that knife
Speaker 5: indeed was part of a sect that was in the
Speaker 5: kitchen and it is a sect that is missing one
Speaker 5: of the knives.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a judge, Curry, Bethany Curry is in charge.
Speaker 4: And what does maybe surprising to some people, what does
Speaker 4: this person, this perpetrator, Colin Richards want to do? Was
Speaker 4: he plead to the judge? What was his plea to
Speaker 4: the judge?
Speaker 5: He says, he writes, and this is the way he
Speaker 5: wrote it on a piece of paper. I would like
Speaker 5: to take care of my case. I would like to
Speaker 5: do whatever it is to move forward, ending the case.
Speaker 5: Pl guilty, pleading obviously guilty, if that's what it takes.
Speaker 5: Penan cut and Stowry, I do plead guilty and Curry
Speaker 5: accepted the note.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this story doesn't have is a little bit different
Speaker 4: because it doesn't catapult the story into political the political
Speaker 4: arena like Molly's did. But because Celia is a world
Speaker 4: class golfer, how does this story get bigger than it would?
Speaker 5: Yeah, this becomes an international story, not just a national story,
Speaker 5: but an international story because her mother is still in Spain. Well,
Speaker 5: your family's still in Spain. The golfers around the world
Speaker 5: just love Cellia and they really aren't mourning Stellia as much.
Speaker 5: Nearly as much anyway as the family is mourning Celia.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So there's the sentencing on August twenty third, twenty
Speaker 4: nineteen for Colin Richards first degree in Iowa already carries
Speaker 4: life without parole sentence. But it wasn't It was a
Speaker 4: chance for law enforcement, you say, to show their support
Speaker 4: for Celia's friends and family and also to express their grief.
Speaker 4: But Colin Wright, say, and note, what does he have
Speaker 4: to say to the courts via this note?
Speaker 5: Well, there's the note where he wanted to plead guilty.
Speaker 5: Is that the note you're speaking of, Well, he just talks.
Speaker 4: No, it's more of the note about the remorse he feels.
Speaker 4: Not much to the note, but that he said he
Speaker 4: did feel remorse for stripping society of this person.
Speaker 5: Oh right, right, Yes he did write that. Yes, I
Speaker 5: don't have that note in front of me right now,
Speaker 5: but yeah, he did write that.
Speaker 4: Now you take us to May twenty sixth, twenty twenty one,
Speaker 4: and Christiane's case, you say, is in limbo. Tell us
Speaker 4: why this was delayed.
Speaker 5: Well as day for about three years by worries about
Speaker 5: three trial publicity and just the usual slow turning of
Speaker 5: the wheels of justice of their relations, and there also
Speaker 5: is the complication of the COVID nineteen pandemic. Everything is
Speaker 5: shut down, everything's locked down. So Christian Roberta is in prison. Well,
Speaker 5: they're going to decide an important trial began just nine
Speaker 5: days ago, three years after, nearly three years after he
Speaker 5: was arrested because of COVID nineteen and the other concerns,
Speaker 5: but mainly called in nineteen.
Speaker 4: Right about defense attorneys Chad and Jennifer Frazy Uncharacteristically, Christiane
Speaker 4: takes the stand and he's wearing headphones and he has
Speaker 4: two Spanish language interpreters. What does he claim through these
Speaker 4: interpreters happen with Molly?
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, this is where I get really interesting. He
Speaker 5: goes on the stand and says that he was taking
Speaker 5: a shower in his mobile home. When he came out
Speaker 5: of the bathroom, he was stung to find two men
Speaker 5: sitting in his living room. You've never seen them before.
Speaker 5: They were both wearing sweaters and masks, and of course
Speaker 5: they had outgun. One of them had a gun, the
Speaker 5: other one had a knight. One was bigger than him,
Speaker 5: the other one was about his size. The man forced
Speaker 5: him into his black Chevy Malibu and tell him to
Speaker 5: start driving straight to Brooklyn, Iowa. And there they start
Speaker 5: talking while they're driving. They're talking about finding someone running,
Speaker 5: but they want to find a woman jogging. Well, they
Speaker 5: come upon Malway. As Christian tells his story, and he says, really,
Speaker 5: these two guys and masks and sweaters, one of the gun,
Speaker 5: one of the knife, they engineered the whole thing and
Speaker 5: forced him to do to stop and fight with Molly
Speaker 5: and put her in the trunk of his car, and
Speaker 5: as well to the cornfield.
Speaker 4: Yes, and and what he does as well is he
Speaker 4: throws in some dialogue and says that he heard the
Speaker 4: men say come on Jack, which would clearly implicate Molly's boyfriend,
Speaker 4: Dalton Jack in this.
Speaker 5: Right exactly exactly, So he's trying to, again, you know,
Speaker 5: say that he didn't do it, but Dalton Jack had
Speaker 5: a responsibility in this, and and the guys, you know.
Speaker 4: And the guys and and of course this is very
Speaker 4: typical as well. What how else did he add a
Speaker 4: little detail to this? What other what other threats apparently
Speaker 4: did these people make to ensure his cooperation?
Speaker 5: He his girlfriend and their daughter. The men threatened that
Speaker 5: to hurt Iris and their daughter if he didn't do
Speaker 5: what they told him to do. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Now May twenty sevenths twenty twenty one, you talk about
Speaker 4: prosecutor Scott Brown, what happens with this Christiane story of kidnap?
Speaker 4: What does he believe? What does he say?
Speaker 5: He says that Scott Brown says, you know, he disputes
Speaker 5: the allegations. He said there was Yes, he says, the
Speaker 5: truth truth, The truth is just more straightforward. Now the
Speaker 5: prosecutor insists he took her, he committed to crime. What
Speaker 5: happened Molly, he says, is no longer on this planet
Speaker 5: because of the defender.
Speaker 4: And she was left there for five weeks. So you
Speaker 4: talk about the appalling crime scene photos that the jury
Speaker 4: had to endure as well.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they were. They were really brutal. I mean, these
Speaker 5: were the incredible crime scene. One of the photo showed
Speaker 5: Dolly's body under a couple of stalks at corn. You
Speaker 5: can see her foot sticking out. You can see her
Speaker 5: clothing on the ground near her body. Uh, the body
Speaker 5: was very decomposed. So yeah, they were. They were really gruesome.
Speaker 4: Grewsome photos and they had him dead to rights with
Speaker 4: the blood analysis and the DNA in the trunk didn't
Speaker 4: they correct.
Speaker 5: They did. They had him dead to rights. Yeah and uh,
Speaker 5: and the story just the jury did not buy his
Speaker 5: story at all, Christian story about the two guys forcing
Speaker 5: him do to kidnap Molly and then and then kill her.
Speaker 5: The jury just did not believe it at all. They
Speaker 5: deliberated her a little more than seven hours and then
Speaker 5: found him guilty of first degree marke.
Speaker 4: You talk about the impact on the community with these
Speaker 4: two sensational end up being sensational murders. Tell us a
Speaker 4: little bit about that this is a little place. So
Speaker 4: there was a significant impact, wasn't there.
Speaker 5: Yeah, really a very significant impact. This is the kind
Speaker 5: of place Brooklyn, Iowa, where people they forgot to lock
Speaker 5: their doors at night. They didn't worry about it too much.
Speaker 5: Now they do. And now people in town would say
Speaker 5: that they're constantly looking over their shoulders because they know Brooklyn,
Speaker 5: Iowa is no different than any other place that this
Speaker 5: can happen there. And again the same thing on the
Speaker 5: golf course cold Water and the town where Celia was murdered.
Speaker 5: You know, this was just a big wake up call
Speaker 5: to a couple of small towns and the people who
Speaker 5: live in those small towns that They're no safer than
Speaker 5: somebody in New York. I guess this.
Speaker 4: You've written about a lot of murders. Why did you
Speaker 4: feel important to put these two stories we've previously published
Speaker 4: We'll find you and let's do murder together? And well, yeah,
Speaker 4: why put these two?
Speaker 5: I just thought it was a better story than they
Speaker 5: deserve to be together. And the chances of these two
Speaker 5: women who had, as I wrote, everything to live for,
Speaker 5: they both had lives that they were looking forward to,
Speaker 5: those lives being snuffed out in two small towns in
Speaker 5: the state of Iowa within months of each other. It
Speaker 5: just seemed like those stories needed to be together.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you talk as two college students in Iowa
Speaker 4: with all of their future ahead. You talked about Molly
Speaker 4: and Dalton planning to go to his brother's wedding and
Speaker 4: the Dominican Republic. She had just gotten her passport, it
Speaker 4: was her first. I know it seems cliche, but these
Speaker 4: people both were some of the nicest people anybody to report.
Speaker 4: And again, I know that sounds like a cliche, but
Speaker 4: there wasn't any dirt to find on these people, and
Speaker 4: it is so sad to see the most undeserving people
Speaker 4: of this if not that anyone deserves to be murdered,
Speaker 4: but just the sheer innocence of these people and the
Speaker 4: senseless murders.
Speaker 5: You know, that's a really strong point, Dan, The innocence
Speaker 5: of these people. And that's not just Molly and Celia,
Speaker 5: but their families as well, especially in the family of
Speaker 5: Malli that you know, I found much more about them
Speaker 5: I did tell you. But yeah, just the innocence of
Speaker 5: these people throwing into this situation. I mean, none of
Speaker 5: us expects to be on Good Morning America talking about
Speaker 5: the murder of a loved one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's it's not to be under estimated. The
Speaker 4: untractable situation that they are in. Intractable situation that they're in,
Speaker 4: believing that their loved one is still alive, hoping that
Speaker 4: the loved one is still alive. Then their only course
Speaker 4: is to plead somehow to the goodness of this perpetrator
Speaker 4: to release her. I can't imagine a more horrifying situation
Speaker 4: to be in.
Speaker 5: Yeah it is. And yeah, I can't imagine it either,
Speaker 5: I really can't. And then at your tragedy put onto
Speaker 5: a national stage by politicians who want to use the
Speaker 5: story of their advantage.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you did mention that the family, not only the
Speaker 4: father but the aunt as well, but other people in
Speaker 4: the in the in the family wanted to make sure
Speaker 4: to ensure that this story didn't lose focus, didn't lose
Speaker 4: focus on Molly, but instead this was used by political
Speaker 4: parties at that time to talk about their policy about
Speaker 4: illegal immigration. Right, plainly right.
Speaker 5: They both did not want that happen, and Rob Kibb
Speaker 5: went national and he was very very outspoken in asking
Speaker 5: people to not to make this a political story. Yes.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I want to thank you very much Rod Cackley
Speaker 4: for coming on and talking about the Iowa Murders, a
Speaker 4: shocking crew time story. For those that might want to
Speaker 4: find out more of your work, they can you refer
Speaker 4: them to page and our website.
Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, it's Rodcackling dot com and you can always
Speaker 5: find me there. And also wherever you buy books, Amazon,
Speaker 5: Barnes and Noble, Apple, Kobe, wherever you find books, you'll
Speaker 5: find buy books, But go to rodcackli dot com. That's
Speaker 5: where I try to keep everything up to date.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, thank you so much, Rod. The Iowa Murders a
Speaker 4: shocking true crime story. It's been a pleasure. Thank you
Speaker 4: so much Rod, you have a great evening and I
Speaker 4: know we'll be talking to you again soon.
Speaker 5: Thank you Dan, same to you. Have a good night.
Speaker 5: B