Speaker 1: Deborah, with her thirty years of being an ltrepreneur and
Speaker 1: creating over seven companies, knows exactly what it means to
Speaker 1: accept the mission. When you make that decision, when you
Speaker 1: accept the mission to become a solopreneur, to take yourself
Speaker 1: and your talents to market, then you embrace a life
Speaker 1: of not only unlimited possibilities, but also the unknown. It's
Speaker 1: an elixir of fear and bravery that only someone who's
Speaker 1: taken the leap really understands. On our show, deb digs
Speaker 1: deep with her guests to highlight what you the listener
Speaker 1: wants to know the stories, the whys, and the hows
Speaker 1: to navigate the journey to success. Get ready to hear
Speaker 1: from some of the most incredible mission takers from Generation
Speaker 1: Z to boomers. So sit up, perk up, and get
Speaker 1: ready to be blown away. Now Here is your host,
Speaker 1: Deborah Drummond.
Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome so much.
Speaker 3: I'm sure, Joe, because common for taking incredible You are
Speaker 3: the best. Even though I have a podcast host with
Speaker 3: me today and people playing media with me, but you
Speaker 3: are my best podcast audience.
Speaker 2: Of what I say that, you are my best media
Speaker 2: friends and you rock and we are going to blow
Speaker 2: this show up today, because what happens when you get
Speaker 2: a bunch of creatives together. What happens is you get
Speaker 2: so many ideas that you plan your schedule for the
Speaker 2: next three years. I mean, get a room of creatives
Speaker 2: in a field, you start making TV shows, you start collaborating,
Speaker 2: I don't know, you start doing art shows all over
Speaker 2: the world because anything is possible when you talk to
Speaker 2: somebody that's creative, because creative people find creative ways, right,
Speaker 2: and then you put in that entrepreneurship that lentrepreneurship. And
Speaker 2: if you don't know what an entrepreneur is, it's an
Speaker 2: entrepreneur that can't say no. Mostly they can't say no
Speaker 2: to themselves. We get these ideas going seriously, you can
Speaker 2: imagine what it's like. That's why it's super cool when
Speaker 2: you go to like art shows or you go to
Speaker 2: the theater, you're supporting someone that's shooting a movie or whatever,
Speaker 2: and you and there's like if there's the you know,
Speaker 2: people hanging out, and then there's this hover of enthusiasm.
Speaker 2: It's almost like ether, right, and there's this whole creative
Speaker 2: bubble that's going around. So we're gonna have a blast
Speaker 2: on this show today, So let me introduce to you,
Speaker 2: and so listen, audience, I know some of you are
Speaker 2: listening and some of you are watching. So I'm just
Speaker 2: going to kind of introduce to who you're gonna be
Speaker 2: listening to today, and I'm gonna get them just kind
Speaker 2: of do their hand up so that if someone is watching,
Speaker 2: they know they can put the voice to the hand.
Speaker 2: And for those of you that are listening, just listen,
Speaker 2: watch the show later. We got you. We're gonna talk
Speaker 2: creative today. So miss Carol, Carol, can you just give
Speaker 2: us a wave today? Just let us know who you are,
Speaker 2: Carol Matresi all the way from Texas. And then we
Speaker 2: have Ronnie. Now Ronnie is interesting. I've never pronounced your name,
Speaker 2: your last name, and let's hope I do it correctly.
Speaker 2: Is it Ronnie Armas? All right? So just give a
Speaker 2: little wave thumbs up. That's you. Awesome. And then you
Speaker 2: have seen both Carol and Ocean before in the show
Speaker 2: The Ocean. Just give us a wave. Awesome. That's great.
Speaker 2: We know who we're talking to. Could you imagine if
Speaker 2: there was twenty or thirty of us on here, we'd
Speaker 2: be like we'd be eating lunch at the same time,
Speaker 2: there'd be so many cool things going on. But look
Speaker 2: at let's get into it, because this is called mission accepted.
Speaker 2: And you know that what we talk about is a
Speaker 2: little James Bondish. It's like, it's the risk and the
Speaker 2: danger and the joy and the surprise and the cool
Speaker 2: things that happen by taking this venture, because this venture.
Speaker 2: Sometimes the hardest thing is deciding to be an entrepreneur
Speaker 2: until you're actually an entrepreneur and you realize that maybe
Speaker 2: some of the hardest things is staying an entrepreneur. Yea,
Speaker 2: accept the mission, but then you got to stay on
Speaker 2: that mission and where does that mission go? So Carol,
Speaker 2: let me start with you a little bit. I'm just
Speaker 2: gonna throw a question, like, you know, we all have
Speaker 2: these lives and at one point you decide that you're
Speaker 2: going to do something that falls in this creative field.
Speaker 2: What was that like for you? What was that like
Speaker 2: for you? And tell us what you do? You know,
Speaker 2: tell us what you do, who you are, what you do?
Speaker 2: I know who you are. One knows who you are.
Speaker 2: We the Coonel and Dev show a lot of times.
Speaker 4: We have a ball and I have to say Dev
Speaker 4: has been such an incredible positive influence and mentor along
Speaker 4: this media journey. When I was eight years old, I
Speaker 4: knew I wanted to be an entertainment in media, and
Speaker 4: then was told, no, that's not.
Speaker 5: What you're going to do.
Speaker 4: So I went along this other path and good news
Speaker 4: is you're constantly preparing for what you don't know you're
Speaker 4: preparing for.
Speaker 5: And went along. And I'm older.
Speaker 4: Than all the guests here, inclusive of our fabulous host.
Speaker 4: I'm on the backside no matter how I look at it.
Speaker 4: And when I had the opportunity to not do all
Speaker 4: my entrepreneur other things real estate and banking, etc.
Speaker 5: I said, I'm going to do this. I'm going to
Speaker 5: do this. I'm not going to sit around and wonder.
Speaker 4: I'm going to do all. I'm going to get into
Speaker 4: the media and the entertainment. So I said, let's do it.
Speaker 4: Started a production one of eleven, and productions. It was
Speaker 4: going to be about my family because I'm number six
Speaker 4: of eleven. We have writers and songwriters and bank You know,
Speaker 4: anything you've done good or bad, you find that within
Speaker 4: our eleven. And I said, I'm going to do this
Speaker 4: and I'm going to tell these stories because with all
Speaker 4: my heart, I believe we learn through people's stories. And
Speaker 4: then the journey led me to one thing after another,
Speaker 4: and now it's exploding. And the entire mission has been
Speaker 4: to share with others that you're a unique child of
Speaker 4: God and you matter in your story matters, and I'm
Speaker 4: sharing that every way I can.
Speaker 5: I get to meet people from all over.
Speaker 4: The world and work with deb A lot of things
Speaker 4: coming up as well, and I'll.
Speaker 5: Tell you it's thrilling. It's thrilling. I love it. I
Speaker 5: knew when I was eight this is what I was
Speaker 5: supposed to be doing. It took me a little bit,
Speaker 5: so there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes the journey, like you said, sometimes the journey
Speaker 2: is the preparation. And we all know that frustration, right,
Speaker 2: we all know the frustration. So Ronnie, what about for yourself?
Speaker 2: When was it that you came over to this side?
Speaker 2: I won't say the dark side, because it's really colorful
Speaker 2: over here, so the colorful When did you come to
Speaker 2: the colorful side?
Speaker 6: That's actually a really great question because I'll tell you
Speaker 6: the truth. I actually started out as a science nerd,
Speaker 6: not an art nerd. I wanted to I had a
Speaker 6: great admiration and love for biology. So it was like marine, bio, neurobiopsychology,
Speaker 6: anything in those fields for me is what I was
Speaker 6: really attracted to ever since I was a kid. But
Speaker 6: it was one day I was just taking a photography
Speaker 6: class at community college and I fell in.
Speaker 7: Love with the dark room.
Speaker 6: I started with film, right, and I fell in love
Speaker 6: with the dark room and it was such a I
Speaker 6: would spend like ten twelve hours in the dark room
Speaker 6: just the magic of seeing a print come to life. Right,
Speaker 6: this is before digital, before the instant gratification. You had
Speaker 6: to go through a process and you had to you know,
Speaker 6: have your print go through chemicals, and you had to
Speaker 6: wait and you had to if you were able to
Speaker 6: capture that moment or not. And to me, that was
Speaker 6: very cathartic, it was very zen, and that was kind
Speaker 6: of the inception for me. And then I'll tell you,
Speaker 6: one day somebody came into the college saying, hey, I'd
Speaker 6: like to hire a photographer. And then when I figured
Speaker 6: out that people are willing to pay for photos, that
Speaker 6: was it. That was it, and then it just kind
Speaker 6: of snowballed from there. So currently I am a photographer,
Speaker 6: graphic designer, cinematographer, filmmaker, everything to do.
Speaker 7: In media, and.
Speaker 6: Like Carol said, really just being a storyteller, right, That's
Speaker 6: really what it's come down for me, is finally realizing
Speaker 6: at this point in my life that I'm a storyteller.
Speaker 6: I didn't realize that until recently. I thought I was
Speaker 6: just I liked creating images and collaborating with people. But
Speaker 6: you know, within the last couple of years, it kind
Speaker 6: of finally hit Oh wait, I guess I tell stories.
Speaker 6: And so now that's kind of given me at a
Speaker 6: brand new direction, right as a creative, to focus in
Speaker 6: on all the skills that I have and how now
Speaker 6: do I bring them all together and collaborate with other
Speaker 6: amazing folks to bring stories to life, And especially now nowadays,
Speaker 6: we need that more than ever, right, we need to
Speaker 6: be able to grab people's attention and hold it and
Speaker 6: kind of you know, reprogram ourselves to go beyond the
Speaker 6: instant gratification and invest invest in the story.
Speaker 7: And by doing that, we're investing in ourselves.
Speaker 2: Wow, thank you, that's so interesting, isn't it so interesting?
Speaker 2: And I took photography in school and I remember taking
Speaker 2: the little plastic tongs and going from one wash to
Speaker 2: another wash to another wash. I also remember when you
Speaker 2: used to take pictures on a camera and you didn't
Speaker 2: take forty five pictures because you had a camera roll.
Speaker 2: You only had so many pictures and you had to hope.
Speaker 2: You went and picked up your pictures and you looked
Speaker 2: through like that one didn't work, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: That one didn't work. And I think there is something
Speaker 2: to be said about that whole instant. And you know,
Speaker 2: people will say to me, they're like, oh, I need
Speaker 2: to make my now. Sometimes if you're doing a short
Speaker 2: on YouTube or something, and it's got to be within
Speaker 2: a certain time. But you know, I have some people
Speaker 2: say to me, I've got to keep all my content
Speaker 2: really short. I've got to keep it. I said, no,
Speaker 2: we've been wiring our brains that way. But I said,
Speaker 2: when's the last time you went in to see a
Speaker 2: movie and you got up after ten minutes or five
Speaker 2: minutes or ninety seconds? You stayed the whole hour, an
Speaker 2: hour and a half or two. So if you're talking,
Speaker 2: you're giving value, You're engaging people, You're teaching people.
Speaker 4: They're going to.
Speaker 2: Hang they're going to hang out. How many people leave
Speaker 2: in a conference They're like, got to go? Do you know?
Speaker 2: So I think if we just can re talk that
Speaker 2: or retalk that, have that conversation. But that's awesome and
Speaker 2: Ocean Ocean, tell us a little bit about you, what
Speaker 2: you do and what was it? What was the point?
Speaker 2: Was there a point did you go from something else
Speaker 2: into creative or did you just start in this field.
Speaker 8: I always wanted to have my my own clothing line
Speaker 8: and my own business.
Speaker 9: Since I was a child.
Speaker 8: I always wanted to have that following, especially because I
Speaker 8: was very interested in sneakers in the street whear world,
Speaker 8: and I would watch and even myself would even line
Speaker 8: up for a drop for a ticket to get the
Speaker 8: shoes that you wanted to get. And but I was like, wow,
Speaker 8: imagine having my own line and people do that about
Speaker 8: my clothes and they love it so much that they'll
Speaker 8: wait in line.
Speaker 9: So Ever, since I was a kid, I had like
Speaker 9: the desire.
Speaker 8: To have my own line and my passion for art,
Speaker 8: and so I just mixed the two together. So I
Speaker 8: kind of said, like, I'm a fashion designer, miss mixing
Speaker 8: my passion with art into one. So that's I always
Speaker 8: wanted to have that passion strip for us. So now
Speaker 8: that we're doing it, and we just came back from
Speaker 8: trade shows and talking whole bunch of people and seeing
Speaker 8: how they react to it. If they like it, maybe
Speaker 8: they don't, may it's not their thing, but they still
Speaker 8: kind of like take a look. It's just surreal. And
Speaker 8: so now we're truly following my path and I'm very
Speaker 8: happy about that.
Speaker 2: Now, right on, did you ever work for anyone or
Speaker 2: have another job before you went into your own company?
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean I worked at gym, so that was
Speaker 9: really what I did.
Speaker 8: Was I worked at you know, golds, and I worked
Speaker 8: at all those kind of front desk sales jobs. So
Speaker 8: now that I get to sell my really my own
Speaker 8: products and my own creations is very very surreal, very.
Speaker 2: Cool, very cool. Carol, I'm me to go to you. Thanks, Machoshan,
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to you. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: you're doing life and all of a sudden, you know,
Speaker 2: the eight year old starts screaming like, yeah, what about me?
Speaker 2: What was the risk?
Speaker 8: Like?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's risk in a lot of
Speaker 2: things that we do, whether it's in business or out
Speaker 2: of business, But was there something that felt risky that
Speaker 2: you know, for some people it's financial, for some people
Speaker 2: it's people in their life that are like what are
Speaker 2: you doing? Like support for it? Could could it be
Speaker 2: like I'm taking something away from a business that's already successful,
Speaker 2: Like what's going to happen to that business? Like where
Speaker 2: did your risk come into it? What made you so?
Speaker 4: I think that a risk comes up in a lot
Speaker 4: of those areas. Those are great examples.
Speaker 5: I'll just speak to the one that was the largest
Speaker 5: for me, and that was I was at a.
Speaker 4: Point that if I pursued anything much less, anything new,
Speaker 4: because you dive in to this area, any type of creative,
Speaker 4: creative area, you know.
Speaker 5: You're consumed with it.
Speaker 4: And I now at this point I have two incredible
Speaker 4: little grand girls, grand baby girls, and when I started,
Speaker 4: I guess they were you know, three and five, and now.
Speaker 5: They're a little bit older. But what I.
Speaker 4: The risk I was taking was that this beautiful group
Speaker 4: of family that I cherished so much is thinking what
Speaker 4: you now, You're making a choice. Instead of being completely
Speaker 4: on top of this time that we all have, you
Speaker 4: are making a choice to continue. You know, I think
Speaker 4: as an entrepreneur and especially as a creative, it's not
Speaker 4: really a choice.
Speaker 5: It's constantly in you.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just something dying to get out and
Speaker 4: they have been instead.
Speaker 5: I took that risk knowing.
Speaker 4: That I would be better with and for them and
Speaker 4: as a walk the talk kind of person if I
Speaker 4: went forward with it. And you know, to me, that's
Speaker 4: the greatest risk of all, is that those around you
Speaker 4: that you cherish and you're so grateful for and it
Speaker 4: turns out after a while of doing it, now they
Speaker 4: love it. Now I interview the little girls, Yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: I don't put them up, but they're you know, and
Speaker 4: they're very creative.
Speaker 5: So thank you father.
Speaker 4: It's all working out. So the risk was worth it,
Speaker 4: but it was scary.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that transparency because it's real. You know, it's real,
Speaker 2: Like you go into something that's enveloping, right, you go
Speaker 2: into something that's enveloping. You didn't go and grab another
Speaker 2: job that had hours and structure and that could be
Speaker 2: worked around. So when you go into that even as
Speaker 2: an entrepreneur, you know, I had two children that were
Speaker 2: ten years apart, and when I first started, you know,
Speaker 2: there was a particular person in my family that thought
Speaker 2: they'd sure with my daughter, like I gave up my
Speaker 2: career when I had my children, And I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: you're not sleeping over at her house anymore, Like Lily
Speaker 2: I called her, I'm like, she's not coming back, but
Speaker 2: it's And then it's hard to work within yourself on
Speaker 2: it because the bottom line is it's in us too, right.
Speaker 2: We're like, I know, I'm not spending time there, I'm
Speaker 2: spending time here. And what does me spending time here?
Speaker 8: What?
Speaker 2: I had to like, you go, but what value does
Speaker 2: that bring? Like, what value does that bring that grandchild,
Speaker 2: that child that would have you to see and watch
Speaker 2: and hopefully you inbed a different set of values. Right,
Speaker 2: So I and my daughter was like, well, you're gonna
Speaker 2: be the yah. Yeah, that takes her shopping in New York.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, I am, you know so, but
Speaker 2: it takes a while for me it did anyway. So
Speaker 2: thank you for bringing that up, because that's a that's
Speaker 2: a real thing.
Speaker 4: That's a real thing, and that I can throw in
Speaker 4: one comment about it just recently, and I so appreciated this.
Speaker 4: One of my three kiddos. They're all grown and have
Speaker 4: these beautiful careers, thank God. And she said, I wanted
Speaker 4: to tell you how much I appreciate that you start,
Speaker 4: that you chose to continue to learn and grow and
Speaker 4: do something. Because so many of my dear friends, their
Speaker 4: mothers are not they're not active enough, and they're looking
Speaker 4: for things to fill time.
Speaker 5: I think maybe I'm the other extreme.
Speaker 4: However, I did appreciate that they shared that they were
Speaker 4: cool with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right on, right on, Thank you so much. And Ronnie,
Speaker 2: what about for you risk.
Speaker 7: Terry?
Speaker 6: I started in my early twenties, you know, down this
Speaker 6: path of I started as a photographer, and then, like
Speaker 6: I mentioned earlier, when somebody said, oh my gosh, we'll
Speaker 6: pay you, it blew my mind. I can make money
Speaker 6: doing this. But the risk really was can I make
Speaker 6: a living at this? Is this something that is sustainable?
Speaker 6: Does this actually make sense? And when you're in your twenties,
Speaker 6: there's a whole lot of bravado, there's a whole lot
Speaker 6: of you know, feeling like you're immortal, nothing can hurt you.
Speaker 6: You'll figure it out, like you know, And thank god
Speaker 6: I had that because that did actually help me. I
Speaker 6: had my first business at twenty five, and we worked,
Speaker 6: you know, with local chambers of commerce, we worked with
Speaker 6: the city of la We did some pretty good stuff,
Speaker 6: which was kind of my point. Except again, but it
Speaker 6: was my naivete that got us through that because I
Speaker 6: didn't know we weren't supposed to be able to do that, right,
Speaker 6: not having an inexperience, not knowing what a contract was,
Speaker 6: not knowing about any of this stuff. But the risk
Speaker 6: was that, right because almost majority of my life I
Speaker 6: always worked for myself. But it's always that. But can
Speaker 6: I continue doing this? Can I continue to sustain myself?
Speaker 6: Can I ever buy a home doing this? Can I
Speaker 6: ever have a family doing this? And it's gotten scary
Speaker 6: many times. I'm first generation here. My family's from Alstad,
Speaker 6: and I want to actually give props to my little
Speaker 6: country that does have good stuff going on to and
Speaker 6: you know, but first generation here, with all the stuff
Speaker 6: you go through, like there was a lot of imposter
Speaker 6: syndrome too, a lot of imposter syndrome. So, Okay, maybe
Speaker 6: I can do this, but everything says I can maybe,
Speaker 6: like so much doubt that just overwhelms your mind on
Speaker 6: the day to day basis. But then, like Carol said,
Speaker 6: there's also this thing in you that just has to
Speaker 6: come out, this vision, this idea, this ambition. It's it's
Speaker 6: like it's its own little being inside of you that
Speaker 6: just needs to breathe right, and so it's a it's
Speaker 6: a constant battle that I'll be honest, continues to this day.
Speaker 6: I've gotten to do and work on some pretty amazing
Speaker 6: things over my creative career, and I still wake up
Speaker 6: thinking sometimes, gosh, but can I continue doing this? There's
Speaker 6: so many good people out there, and technology, technology being
Speaker 6: what it is, it's kind of like a little scary
Speaker 6: now is anyone going to need me anymore?
Speaker 7: Because of what technology can do now?
Speaker 6: So there's a lot of questions there, and I think
Speaker 6: the risk never goes away per se. We're always anytime,
Speaker 6: and this is part of just being an artist. An
Speaker 6: artist has to be vulnerable for it the work to
Speaker 6: be good. So you risk every single day. You risk
Speaker 6: every single time you create something. You are giving part
Speaker 6: of yourself, a part of your soul, a part of
Speaker 6: your story, and so the risk is always there. I
Speaker 6: think it's inherent to a creative I think what we
Speaker 6: need to do is just be brave, right, find that courage,
Speaker 6: suck it up and do it. And then there's always
Speaker 6: that beautiful satisfaction when you see the piece of art,
Speaker 6: whatever it may be, and then the reaction from the
Speaker 6: people right that it actually connected.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. That's such a big piece of it, isn't it
Speaker 2: The process and what goes on in the mind of
Speaker 2: an entrepreneur, never mind a creative entrepreneur. Where because it
Speaker 2: is creativity, because it's so go up to you to
Speaker 2: access that and then stay in that. You hear people
Speaker 2: having writers blocks or artist blocks, and you know then
Speaker 2: that starts to get a little more panicky for people
Speaker 2: in that moment. Is it going to happen? Is it
Speaker 2: going to be received? I just poured six months into this.
Speaker 2: Is this film going to make it? Is it going
Speaker 2: to have that? There's so many elements that are the unknown.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's an unknown element in the world of
Speaker 2: entrepreneurship anyways. But if you have a coach and you
Speaker 2: have a master class, you know you've worked on your masterclass.
Speaker 2: You know, now you've got to market that master class
Speaker 2: and you'll capture what you capture. But with art, sometimes
Speaker 2: when you produce it, you can't be guaranteed people's responses
Speaker 2: because they vary. Some people like I need to hang
Speaker 2: that in my hallways. Some people like, please no one
Speaker 2: buy me that for Christmas? Like you just don't know, right,
Speaker 2: And it's part of the exploratory experience. So that's actually
Speaker 2: well said Ocean. What about for you? I mean share
Speaker 2: with us, share with us, like, what does it feel
Speaker 2: like to be an art this? What was risky for
Speaker 2: you about going into your business? Maybe it was going
Speaker 2: into something that was fairly unknown. This is your first company.
Speaker 2: What for you felt risky?
Speaker 8: I feel like, well, Ronnie so is pretty like That's
Speaker 8: what I was kind of thinking as well, where it
Speaker 8: was like, how we're going to continue with this because
Speaker 8: you know, I've I've always wanted to do this and
Speaker 8: this is my true passion and how can we continue
Speaker 8: and grow? And I feel like Ronie's to what I
Speaker 8: was really thinking in my head. But to be an
Speaker 8: artist is pretty surreal, Like you do get that where
Speaker 8: you do learn like old people love it or people
Speaker 8: don't love it, and then you get to kind of
Speaker 8: experience that and still make your own thing out of
Speaker 8: that and sometimes people get it, sometimes they don't, but
Speaker 8: you know, you.
Speaker 9: Still talk to them.
Speaker 8: They still kind of appreciate what you're trying to do
Speaker 8: and how you're showing up. But yeah, I think that's
Speaker 8: pretty true, like to continue with it? And how are
Speaker 8: you going to get enough money to produce more and yeah,
Speaker 8: that's and doing like custom work, all those things kind
Speaker 8: of going to one and like, yeah, it's pretty it's
Speaker 8: pretty like that.
Speaker 2: Pretty like that. I mean, I think you talked about
Speaker 2: something really real and transparent, like Carol did the money.
Speaker 2: The money. You know, when you are creating and you
Speaker 2: spend time creating in this field, particularly, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of cart before the horse, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: if you're creating something new, like a fashion line, like
Speaker 2: a movie, like a show, right, Like, I think it's
Speaker 2: a great idea. Is it a great idea? Am I
Speaker 2: on the mark? Or am I off three percent? Because
Speaker 2: we know three percent could be you know, everything, And
Speaker 2: I need to sell this, produce this to get money
Speaker 2: so I can keep producing and creating. And its cyclical, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, Ocean I Show. I saw you at a
Speaker 2: trade show this weekend, pretty sure. We were hanging out
Speaker 2: and I saw you. You had just produced eleven new
Speaker 2: stickers for this TV show that you're doing, right for
Speaker 2: the Tattoo Show, and you had it all out and
Speaker 2: it was interesting what you were saying to people because
Speaker 2: you know, people were engaged, and then before they left,
Speaker 2: you actually had them voting on their top three pieces
Speaker 2: of you know, the stickers that they liked, and it
Speaker 2: was interesting for you. I've seen you do that before
Speaker 2: at a different show. If you did it at the
Speaker 2: Japan show, different crowd. I saw you do it at
Speaker 2: this show, which was more of an artisan kind of crowd,
Speaker 2: and it was really interesting for you to for meet
Speaker 2: observe you taking notes and then you know, really what
Speaker 2: pictures were riding high, which then I know you're taking
Speaker 2: that decision and those are the first pieces that you'll
Speaker 2: take to market. So it's very interesting. Sometimes you can't
Speaker 2: do that right, and it's expensive to do that. You know,
Speaker 2: you go to a show for market research, it's thousands
Speaker 2: of dollars for market research. But those are the things
Speaker 2: that people don't know, right, they don't know. So, like
Speaker 2: you said, Ronnie, when someone sees something that you've produced
Speaker 2: and you're like, oh my gosh, that was the best
Speaker 2: podcast I've been on. Oh my gosh, I love the
Speaker 2: shirt I'm wearing. Oh my gosh, the pictures are gorgeous.
Speaker 2: There's more than just hey things. It's like really a
Speaker 2: soul confirmation that you're on the right that you're on
Speaker 2: the right path. So let's flip this, let's flip this.
Speaker 2: So there's risk, there's reward, there's whole things. So let's
Speaker 2: talk about the reward. Let's talk about what is one
Speaker 2: of the coolest things that you've ever experienced as a
Speaker 2: personal development piece or I don't know, someone walked up
Speaker 2: to you that was cool, like Carol shared me a
Speaker 2: cool moment from being in this world of creative and
Speaker 2: media that you were like, man, you know that was awesome.
Speaker 2: You know, you just shared one kind of when your
Speaker 2: daughter came out to you. But something cool that happened
Speaker 2: that you didn't expect.
Speaker 4: I did not expect to have people that have been
Speaker 4: in this industry that have been very successful, you know,
Speaker 4: and any of the filmmakers, actors, music makers. You know
Speaker 4: Ronnie here, I mean it's you know, Ocean, you're developing
Speaker 4: your own stuff. When people like that you hear one
Speaker 4: validating word, I'm covered in chills because you know, it's amazing,
Speaker 4: you know, to everybody's point to Ronnie and Ocean.
Speaker 5: Were so vulnerable to.
Speaker 4: Choose this is to say, Okay, I'm gonna put myself
Speaker 4: out there, and it was a beauty. This doesn't have
Speaker 4: anything about anybody famous saying anything, or my family, who
Speaker 4: I care about more than anything, saying something validating. I
Speaker 4: realized it was eye opening, very cool for me to
Speaker 4: realize that through the vulnerability, peace, my hesitation to put
Speaker 4: some work out there, I preach about accountable for what
Speaker 4: we're doing, right, I realized I was judging the people
Speaker 4: that were going to see it, how they were going
Speaker 4: to look at me.
Speaker 5: I was the one being.
Speaker 4: Judgy, and I think it was very cool and eye
Speaker 4: opening and freeing for me to say, I'm just go
Speaker 4: ahead and trust these people. You know, I'm not going
Speaker 4: to prejudge what they're going to feel like, which also
Speaker 4: helped me.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, with the imposter syndrome.
Speaker 4: You know, just I'm out here and I'm sharing a
Speaker 4: piece of me and hopefully it connects and hopefully it
Speaker 4: connects other and most importantly, the coolest thing of all
Speaker 4: is when somebody else decides to share their creativity. Because
Speaker 4: I was, like Ronnie said, I was brave enough. I
Speaker 4: was just braving. I just did it.
Speaker 5: And like you have you preach, stand up, show up
Speaker 5: and speak up. I mean, it's like, you know, just
Speaker 5: do this.
Speaker 4: So that's the coolest part for me that it might
Speaker 4: inspire someone else to throw that piece of themselves out
Speaker 4: there right on.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I mean to Shay too. Sha,
Speaker 2: what about you, what's a cool experience for you.
Speaker 6: I'm gonna try to say this real quick because three
Speaker 6: things come up and they and they're very unique in
Speaker 6: how they hit me. So I've worked behind the camera
Speaker 6: in films as well, right, and so I've been doing
Speaker 6: this for over twenty years, and a few years ago
Speaker 6: I worked on a documentary on human trafficking and very heavy,
Speaker 6: very intense, but got great reception, you know, great audiences
Speaker 6: throughout the world, and the film was shortlisted for an
Speaker 6: Oscar nomination. That to me was huge, Like, you know,
Speaker 6: you do things, you work on stuff, and you show
Speaker 6: up and you have no idea.
Speaker 7: You just show up and try to do your best.
Speaker 6: And there were a bunch of other camera folks on this, right,
Speaker 6: it was a huge team, and I was just one
Speaker 6: of the camera people on there. But to be part
Speaker 6: of a team that did something that goes back to well,
Speaker 6: we're kind of talking about it, got that kind of acknowledgement.
Speaker 7: Didn't win, that's fine.
Speaker 6: Just to be shortlisted as an Oscar nominee, though, was
Speaker 6: mind blowing.
Speaker 7: It was mind blowing.
Speaker 6: Recently, I did some graphic design work for Sheila E
Speaker 6: and she just won a Grammy for a single, and
Speaker 6: I did the art for that single, and so I
Speaker 6: was watching the Grammys and it was mind blowing to
Speaker 6: see my art on the stage as she's getting her
Speaker 6: a Grammy award.
Speaker 7: And again another.
Speaker 6: Little tidbit of like oh wow, what really did that
Speaker 6: just happen, and taking a million screenshots on my computer
Speaker 6: like oh my god, you know, to kind of verify
Speaker 6: it later like no way, no way. And then I
Speaker 6: also do fine art, and a couple of years.
Speaker 7: Ago I had an art show, an arts series.
Speaker 6: It's called Our Stories Are Ancient, and these are portraits
Speaker 6: that I take of people with symbols drawn on glass.
Speaker 7: But then they hold no photoshop. There is all traditional photography.
Speaker 6: They hold the glass in front of them and the
Speaker 6: symbol represents their particular ancestry or indigeneity. And the point
Speaker 6: of the story is to get us to kind of
Speaker 6: remember where we come from.
Speaker 7: And so I had an.
Speaker 6: Art show at the college where I currently work at
Speaker 6: and the student came up to me at the end
Speaker 6: of the show just completely in tears, gave me a
Speaker 6: big old hug, and she was like, you know what,
Speaker 6: thank you, Like I didn't even realize that I should
Speaker 6: be asking that question where do I come from? And that,
Speaker 6: to me, it was hit me so so powerful. It
Speaker 6: was so poignant right to realize that an image right
Speaker 6: can give birth to that kind of question, such a
Speaker 6: powerful question to say.
Speaker 7: Who am I? And where do I come from?
Speaker 6: And so like those three stick out of my mind,
Speaker 6: and those are three things that I do try to
Speaker 6: pull to whenever I'm having doubt, like I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 6: I woke up this morning with a little creative doubt.
Speaker 6: I mete it happens right, and I was like, I
Speaker 6: have so much to do and I have no idea
Speaker 6: how man to do it. But then you recall and
Speaker 6: then you get to be in beautiful spaces like this.
Speaker 6: Thank you for facilitating this, because listening to you all
Speaker 6: and whatnot right now, I'm like, yeah, the pain is
Speaker 6: part of the struggle. We're supposed to suffer a little bit,
Speaker 6: otherwise the art doesn't have that sat right, And so
Speaker 6: there you go, thank you.
Speaker 2: There it is, No, that's beautiful. Look, I think I
Speaker 2: think doubt's part of the deal when you step out
Speaker 2: of when you step into a venture that you may
Speaker 2: not have done before, and or like I said, in
Speaker 2: the world of entrepreneurship and people go, oh, it's a journey.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you describe the journey, it's full of everything.
Speaker 2: You get up, you put your two feet on the ground.
Speaker 2: We know we're going to get up. We know we're
Speaker 2: going to do our day. We know O bring our best.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm listening to youtubes in the morning. I've
Speaker 2: got you know, music playing while I'm in the shower.
Speaker 2: Like we you know, we source our we source our
Speaker 2: substance for that day. Look, you know, I was in
Speaker 2: the shower this morning, going, I'm launching a TV channel
Speaker 2: in less than twelve hours. What was I thinking? Right,
Speaker 2: I'm like where And it started going and I said,
Speaker 2: I just said to someone before the show, I'm being
Speaker 2: completely transparent. I'm like, I shouldn't have been alone today.
Speaker 2: I should have known it to have someone here to go.
Speaker 2: It's okay, it's okay. Like the website's not done, It's okay,
Speaker 2: it's okay. You mean, but it's it's part of it.
Speaker 2: And you know there's some dialogue in there, you know
Speaker 2: that's going, like so who do you think you are.
Speaker 2: I don't know where that comes from, because you know,
Speaker 2: we've surpassed that many times. And when you know I'm
Speaker 2: not twenty, you know, I've proven myself to be like
Speaker 2: you know, and there's days where I earned this and
Speaker 2: I can show it. But I think that I think
Speaker 2: it is part of the creative process. And I think
Speaker 2: it's like when Barbara streisand you know, she talked about
Speaker 2: how she sung and why she's so stage you know
Speaker 2: she has so much stay is that she literally was
Speaker 2: in Central Park and she was singing and she forgot
Speaker 2: all the words and to this day it's very hard
Speaker 2: for her to get over. You'll very rarely see her
Speaker 2: in concert. I think she sung a song at a
Speaker 2: campaign whence a presidential campaign, and they paid her a
Speaker 2: three million because she literally like that's how much pain
Speaker 2: it is for her, because she just couldn't un trauma
Speaker 2: that right, And you're thinking, one of the most gorgeous,
Speaker 2: beautiful singers in the world, you know, Yeah, very interesting. Okay,
Speaker 2: ocean for you for you, which is some of the
Speaker 2: coolest things that's happened for you, Like what puts a
Speaker 2: small on your face when you're doing your thing or yeah,
Speaker 2: what it feels cool.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think this year definitely had a lot of
Speaker 8: ful this beginning, and then last year I think it
Speaker 8: was a big change for us, especially because meeting like
Speaker 8: people like big Percy who's like snoops and she Hustle's manager,
Speaker 8: like that was cool on him, like wearing the hats,
Speaker 8: and but even like when we're back home, especially at
Speaker 8: the trade show, where you see people who are like, oh,
Speaker 8: this is awesome, and they generally get like excited about
Speaker 8: like putting it on or like even looking at a sticker,
Speaker 8: or they just generally like, oh my gosh, it's so cool,
Speaker 8: Like I need to like have it.
Speaker 9: I think that's so like such a big impact.
Speaker 8: And just seeing the people's like smiling and like thinking
Speaker 8: like just having enjoyed their face when I was just
Speaker 8: like looking through and oh my god, this is so cool.
Speaker 9: This this is like I definitely need this, like in
Speaker 9: my life. This is so cool.
Speaker 8: And then like even seeing people close to you get
Speaker 8: inspired by what you're doing.
Speaker 9: And even like I know somebody.
Speaker 8: Who now has like a clothing line and I don't
Speaker 8: want to take credit, but but I feel like a
Speaker 8: little bit I don't know, a little bit of motivation,
Speaker 8: like kind of like you can do it like kind
Speaker 8: of thing. But stuff like that is just like put
Speaker 8: a smile on your face and even helping like your
Speaker 8: friends do what they want to.
Speaker 9: Have a friend who wanted to do this kind of
Speaker 9: like wellness club.
Speaker 8: Not like Jim, but like like recovery, And every time
Speaker 8: I see him, I'm like, okay, so did you get
Speaker 8: the marketing plan down?
Speaker 9: Did you get the did you write the business plan?
Speaker 2: Yet?
Speaker 8: Soon seeing I'm like, okay, I'm gonna give you like
Speaker 8: two days. Like it's just like a little bit like motivation.
Speaker 9: I really love that.
Speaker 8: Like and then now knowing that he's already done it
Speaker 8: and now he's like he's been the works of it
Speaker 8: for like a year and trying to get a place,
Speaker 8: like I think that's such a I don't know, inspiration
Speaker 8: for me to keep going.
Speaker 9: And then seeing where you go with your life.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's awesome. Well, you know, you know when you
Speaker 2: start barking about it, and these guys can tell you,
Speaker 2: when you start telling people what to do, then you
Speaker 2: know that you've got to stay in the game, right
Speaker 2: because you're now there's people watching me, and now I'm
Speaker 2: telling them what because now you've got to stay that
Speaker 2: that's awesome.
Speaker 9: It's not like barking. It's like, uh, like a little
Speaker 9: like a little push. He's a good friend of mine,
Speaker 9: so it's just like I'm.
Speaker 2: On, yeah, yeah, absolutely, Look, I could go all day.
Speaker 2: I have to almost say I think this is some
Speaker 2: way I allowed to say. This is one of my
Speaker 2: favorite shows, probably because I'm with my pipes. I'm always
Speaker 2: with my peeps. But this is super fun. Let's wrap
Speaker 2: this up. So I'm gonna go to you and I'm
Speaker 2: gonna I'll ask you one last question after this. But
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people out there that are entrepreneurs
Speaker 2: that are relating to what you're saying. Absolutely, this is
Speaker 2: such a relatable conversation. But we always like to be
Speaker 2: able to take advice right. People call it sex ass tams.
Speaker 2: It's kind of boring. It's like I would say things
Speaker 2: like that are like, you know, burgundy bridesmaid dresses in
Speaker 2: the eighties. It should never come back. But the ten
Speaker 2: pop dams. So that's sorry if that's what you use
Speaker 2: for your book title. Anyway, the there you go, just
Speaker 2: put myself out there. Someone hates me, the uh, but look,
Speaker 2: we all try to do this easier. We try to
Speaker 2: share things that make it better. We motivate people and
Speaker 2: inspire people. What was something that you did in your
Speaker 2: business as a creative that I don't know made money, quicker,
Speaker 2: saved you some time? It could be not caring what
Speaker 2: people think. I mean, that could be a success hack.
Speaker 2: Right there. I'll kind of go around the room as
Speaker 2: I do if you can please, because we have a
Speaker 2: lot of listeners and watchers and there's gonna be some
Speaker 2: cool show notes about you. But if you can just mention,
Speaker 2: like your website or something where people can find out
Speaker 2: where you are, that'd be great. So Carol, let's start
Speaker 2: with you. Something that you do. I call it top performance.
Speaker 2: You know, something that just get you.
Speaker 4: There, Use the real strength, ask for the help, reach out,
Speaker 4: ask save yourself a bunch of trouble and ask people
Speaker 4: that have done it, people that have just gotten started.
Speaker 5: They want to share, They do want to share.
Speaker 4: Don't judge another person judging you for you reading out
Speaker 4: because of what they're really say is you know what
Speaker 4: this person was brave enough to ask.
Speaker 5: I'm going to give them advice. That's what I'm going
Speaker 5: to say. Oh, where to get me.
Speaker 4: Hear optreesy dot com and move into the world of
Speaker 4: the life.
Speaker 5: You were welcome, you matter, your story matters, Come on.
Speaker 2: Over, right on, right on, and Ronnie.
Speaker 6: So I'll tell you kind of go back to when
Speaker 6: I first started. I said, I first visited the twenty five.
Speaker 6: I was twenty five, but I looked twelve. And so
Speaker 6: the first I remember the first time I went into
Speaker 6: a Chamber of commerce networking business networking event and I
Speaker 6: didn't know how to speak.
Speaker 7: I was like, how do I do this?
Speaker 6: And I was able to go in there and go
Speaker 6: toe to toe and give that firm handshake and look
Speaker 6: people in the eye and kind of making it up though,
Speaker 6: walk out with business.
Speaker 7: And so.
Speaker 6: My advice is show up, like be everywhere, be everywhere.
Speaker 6: No business is going to find you at home, No
Speaker 6: business is going to find you sitting in your office.
Speaker 7: People.
Speaker 6: And this is a lesson I've just recently learned, and
Speaker 6: I've been like, I've been doing those over twenty years.
Speaker 6: I've got a business name, and I'll throw that out
Speaker 6: there right now. It's our a studio anddesign dot com.
Speaker 6: And it's the same for Instagram are a studio and design.
Speaker 6: But people don't care about my business name. People want
Speaker 6: to do business with me. And that was a huge lesson.
Speaker 6: I was so busy, caught up, you know, very much
Speaker 6: for what I've done for other businesses. Create their logos,
Speaker 6: create their marketing assets, you know, make sure that their
Speaker 6: taglinees like, you know, create all this stuff that makes
Speaker 6: them look good. And I was trying to do that
Speaker 6: for myself, and then one day it just hit me.
Speaker 6: It was like, no one cares what my business name is.
Speaker 6: They want to do business with me. They want to
Speaker 6: work with me because of what I can produce for them,
Speaker 6: because of the relationship that we create together, because of
Speaker 6: the collaboration that we're able to fire up together. So
Speaker 6: my advice is get out there, get out there, get
Speaker 6: out there. And that's a risk, right because a lot
Speaker 6: of us I don't know by y'all, but I'm an introvert.
Speaker 6: I am one hundred percent an introvert, and it takes
Speaker 6: a lot for me to get out there. It is effort,
Speaker 6: but you have to get out there, shake the hands.
Speaker 6: I prefer business cards. Everyone's trying to do digital thing,
Speaker 6: but I love business cards because it's tangible. You use
Speaker 6: all your senses, so have that tool with you when
Speaker 6: you go out into the world and mix it up
Speaker 6: with people. Have a good firm handshake with people in
Speaker 6: the eye and tell the truth.
Speaker 7: Be vulnerable. So take the risk in two ways.
Speaker 6: Get out there and be vulnerable and people will want
Speaker 6: to work with you.
Speaker 2: Right on, Thank you so much, and ocean. What would
Speaker 2: would your advice be to someone to just make this easier?
Speaker 9: To make it easier.
Speaker 8: It's never really easy journey, so it's always ups and downs,
Speaker 8: there's always obstacles. But to make it easier, just to
Speaker 8: kind of do something that you love. Like if it's
Speaker 8: getting too hard sometimes just think, well, for me, I
Speaker 8: just kind of usually make a different like art piece
Speaker 8: or a different design. That's what my suggestion is. To
Speaker 8: do something kind of fun, something that could help your business.
Speaker 8: Maybe just have a call with somebody, maybe just go out,
Speaker 8: like when you're walking around, just hey, this is my
Speaker 8: big like Ronnie sad like business card. I always have
Speaker 8: a business card on me, but uh yeah, to make
Speaker 8: it easier, just to just kind of have fun with
Speaker 8: it kind of If it's getting too much, just take
Speaker 8: a break, think what you've come so far and where
Speaker 8: are you started and kind of reflect by that.
Speaker 2: No, that's really good advice. I think that many times,
Speaker 2: particularly as entrepreneurs, we look forward a lot. We're looking
Speaker 2: forward a lot, we don't really stop and people will
Speaker 2: say this, you know, stop and recognize, like, oh my gosh, Ronnie,
Speaker 2: you just like you were taking pictures of your artwork
Speaker 2: at the you know, at the Grammys, and it's like,
Speaker 2: how much should we take that in? How much do
Speaker 2: we enjoy that or how much do we remember that?
Speaker 2: Like you said, reflect back when you're having those times
Speaker 2: that are unsure or unstable, or that piece didn't sell
Speaker 2: us fast, or the guest wasn't able to make it
Speaker 2: that you were banking on or whatever, right, and to
Speaker 2: be able to reflect back to where you started, like
Speaker 2: to where you started, where you were last week, right,
Speaker 2: manytime we take the I thought that's it as like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, I start off as a Denny's waitress and
Speaker 2: here I am launching a TV channel. That's kind of interesting.
Speaker 2: But it made me feel better today. I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I have come so far. I mean I had to
Speaker 2: go back to when I was sixteen. But sometimes if
Speaker 2: you just go back to next week or last week
Speaker 2: or the week before, or like look how much you've done,
Speaker 2: and then recognize that a lot of that's process, and
Speaker 2: you know those things that we do when it's hard
Speaker 2: for me. I stop, I put on a song, I
Speaker 2: go on the belcony, I take two minutes, I come
Speaker 2: back and I shift. What is it that makes us shift? Right? So,
Speaker 2: what a great conversation that we had today. There was
Speaker 2: more than what people would call gold nuggets. I think
Speaker 2: these were absolutely life lessons. And I think that this
Speaker 2: show was all about giving permission. I mean, I really
Speaker 2: feel like I think if there's a title that this
Speaker 2: should be called giving Permission. Oh, let's all go do
Speaker 2: a book together and write a book called giving Permission.
Speaker 2: All right, let's do it. I'll get it to never
Speaker 2: One Ocean does the pictures. Yeah, we can combine your
Speaker 2: show and then Ronnie's going to do the whole thing
Speaker 2: and all the photography. There you go. That's what happens
Speaker 2: when you're a room full of people that are inspired, right, inspired.
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting because I think the inn is
Speaker 2: on the inside, right, It's like we're so inspired. Anyways,
Speaker 2: just wrapping up, I absolutely love this. This is going
Speaker 2: to be such a quick question, Such a quick question.
Speaker 2: You don't have a lot of time to decide. We
Speaker 2: all know how much I love music. I want to
Speaker 2: ask that question. You're on your way to a desert island,
Speaker 2: desert on you, You and you, you and you one suitcase.
Speaker 2: You got room for one album to stick in that
Speaker 2: suitcase that you couldn't imagine not listening to for the
Speaker 2: rest of your days. What's that album going to be?
Speaker 2: You can? You can give me a singer's name. You
Speaker 2: don't remember the album if you don't want, because if
Speaker 2: I do, everyone gives me greatest hits. But what's one album, Ocean,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna start with you. What's one album that you
Speaker 2: just absolutely would wouldn't want to live without?
Speaker 8: Mine always keeps changing every time I feel like on
Speaker 8: this show, but most of the time I gotta stick
Speaker 8: with it's either this one or Michael Jackson. But All
Speaker 8: Eyes on Me by tufauc I just I listen to
Speaker 8: every single day, all right.
Speaker 4: All right, and Carol, you know what, I've just been
Speaker 4: singing this lightly and to your boint Ocean, I change
Speaker 4: every time I'm on this fabulous and my answer is
Speaker 4: going to be I've been seeing a lot of our house,
Speaker 4: which is Grosby Sales Nash.
Speaker 2: All right, Crosby Seals Nash, you gotta love it. And
Speaker 2: Ronnie wrap it up.
Speaker 6: You know this name just keeps popping up in my
Speaker 6: head over and over again. Anything Pink Floyd?
Speaker 9: Oh yeah right, yeah wow.
Speaker 2: Well, look, I want to thank you so much. I'm
Speaker 2: going to talk to the audience a little bit here.
Speaker 2: Thank you for again hanging out with us during an
Speaker 2: amazing show. Look, we've just been able to announce this.
Speaker 2: You know, Devdruman dot com. If you want to be
Speaker 2: sitting where these incredible people are, go there, but now
Speaker 2: you are going to see by the time you watch
Speaker 2: this at the TV show the Women's Channel which is
Speaker 2: for women and those that support women. So I'm expecting
Speaker 2: that to be everybody, right. We have a groageous Women's channel.
Speaker 2: If you want to be seen here, if you want
Speaker 2: to be seen on the summits, if you want to
Speaker 2: come onto the show, if you want to do a
Speaker 2: three part mini series, if you want to do whatever
Speaker 2: you want to do for us. It's just about creating
Speaker 2: platforms so you and your passion can get seen. If
Speaker 2: there's anything that I know at all is that could
Speaker 2: take some years off your business. That's what we're about.
Speaker 2: We're just like we're all the backstage. I've done lots
Speaker 2: of front stage. Let's just be your backstage and help
Speaker 2: you get out on your front stage. There's lots of
Speaker 2: ways that you do that. You know that your audience
Speaker 2: you listen to support.
Speaker 10: So let's go find your your favorite music, go find
Speaker 10: your favorite album and the gmai's most phone, let me
Speaker 10: know what that is like that makes I think you
Speaker 10: guess the audience absolutes.
Speaker 2: Next week and as always I want to see well
Speaker 2: and maybe