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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back, everyone, Ready for another deep dive Today, we're

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<v Speaker 1>going exploring the world of physical red teaming. Oh interesting, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>we've got an excerpt from this book Physical Red Team Operations, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>by Jeremiah Talamantes. It's well, it's all about how security

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<v Speaker 1>professionals test physical security, you know, like in the real world, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And they actually used the same tactics as like real

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<v Speaker 1>world bad actors would.

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<v Speaker 2>So kind of like thinking like the enemy to beat them, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>at our own game.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, it's funny. The book starts off with

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<v Speaker 1>this this crazy story about a group of hackers who

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<v Speaker 1>actually like infiltrated a US oil refinery.

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<v Speaker 2>Whoa really yeah, not virtually, I'm assuming no, like.

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<v Speaker 1>Physically got inside.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, that's a what do they use like some

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<v Speaker 2>high tech method to do that?

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<v Speaker 1>No, that's the thing they didn't. Oh wow. It was

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<v Speaker 1>all like walkie talkies, ock picks, ladders, like basic stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>But they applied it all strategically.

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<v Speaker 2>That's interest saying that they didn't use some super high

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<v Speaker 2>tech method. It was more yeah, just basic stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And it's almost like more unsettling, right that it

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<v Speaker 1>was so low tech.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if they can get into a refinery that easily.

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<v Speaker 2>What else is vulnerable?

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<v Speaker 1>Right? Like, if a refinery is vulnerable to that, what

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<v Speaker 1>about other places? Right? Yeah? And the author he was

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<v Speaker 1>actually hired to like test their security. He even said,

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<v Speaker 1>and I quote the implication is pretty devastating.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can see why he'd say. That really exposes

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<v Speaker 2>how there's this gap between perceived security and actual vulnerability totally.

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<v Speaker 2>Like sometimes the simplest method is the most effective, absolutely,

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<v Speaker 2>especially if you can exploit human error or complacency.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so this leads us to the methodology that the

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<v Speaker 1>book outlines. It's called red tmopsia.

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<v Speaker 2>Red tmopsia okay, yeah, and.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a twelve step process. It's kind of like a

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<v Speaker 1>military operation.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, twelve steps. Yeah, so what is that? What does

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<v Speaker 2>that acronym actually stand for?

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<v Speaker 1>So it's rules of engagement, reconnaissance, direct, preparations, trigger, mobilization, execute, staging,

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<v Speaker 1>assess and acclimate, maneuver operations, offensive, strike, penetrate and control,

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<v Speaker 1>secure opiord and then evacuate, evade, and cover. Hmm. Oh wow. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's it's pretty Uh, that's a mouthful. It's a mouthful,

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<v Speaker 1>but you know, it makes sense that it would be

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<v Speaker 1>so structured given like the sensitive nature of what they're doing,

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<v Speaker 1>And the book uses a lot of imagery, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>of soldiers and weapons really, which really emphasizes how seriously

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<v Speaker 1>these teams take their work.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it makes you really realize it's not just a

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<v Speaker 2>game exactly, it's their real world consequences.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so before we before we break down this whole methodology,

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<v Speaker 1>let's let's clarify what exactly is physical red teaming. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>what are we actually talking about?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when we say that, it's essentially i'd say it's

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<v Speaker 2>all about understanding a target's vulnerabilities from an attacker's perspective.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's more than just breaking in. It's about identifying

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<v Speaker 2>the most likely ways that someone could attack based on

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<v Speaker 2>the target's own threat profile.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so, like if you're testing the security of a bank,

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<v Speaker 1>you'd need to think about how a bank robber would

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<v Speaker 1>act as opposed to say.

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<v Speaker 2>A vandal Exactly. You have to tailor the approach to

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<v Speaker 2>the most realistic threats. And that's where this concept of

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<v Speaker 2>TTPs comes in. GTPs tactics, techniques, and procedures. By actually

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<v Speaker 2>studying the patterns that real world bad actors use, red

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<v Speaker 2>teams can create these realistic simulations, okay, to see how

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<v Speaker 2>the target would actually respond in a real situation.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, so they're not just trying to get in any

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<v Speaker 1>way possible, they're trying to get in the way that

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<v Speaker 1>a real attacker would. Yes, which makes the test that

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<v Speaker 1>much more valuable.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, And that leads into a very important aspect of

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<v Speaker 2>physical red teaming, which are the rules of engagement or ROWE.

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<v Speaker 2>This is essentially a contract that outlines the specific boundaries

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<v Speaker 2>and limitations of the operation, so.

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<v Speaker 1>Things like like what areas are totally off limits, what

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<v Speaker 1>tactics are acceptable, how to handle potential damage to property exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>It's all about ensuring that everything's done ethically, legally and

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<v Speaker 2>with you know, minimal disruption to the client. And damage

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<v Speaker 2>to property is a big one because sometimes it's necessary

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of simulate a real attack, like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>picking a lock or disabling a sensor, but that is

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<v Speaker 2>always discussed and agreed upon with the client beforehand.

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<v Speaker 1>Right like in that lock example you were talking about,

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<v Speaker 1>before damaging the lock might be okay if that's like

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<v Speaker 1>a really common way that people attack that type of facility,

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<v Speaker 1>and the client knows and understands the risks.

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<v Speaker 2>And the cost precisely, it's a delicate balance, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>between realism and the client's needs, and clear communication and

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<v Speaker 2>documentation are absolutely essential throughout this entire.

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<v Speaker 1>Process, right, Transparency is key.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>So once those those ground rules are set, then the

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<v Speaker 1>Red team can get to like I think the most

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<v Speaker 1>exciting part, which is reconnaissance, you know, getting to be

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<v Speaker 1>sneaky and all that. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So what's their definition of reconnaissance?

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<v Speaker 1>Let me see, hold on. The book defines it as

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<v Speaker 1>a mission to obtain information by visual observation or other

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<v Speaker 1>detection methods about the activities and resources of an enemy

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<v Speaker 1>or potential enemy, or about the meteorological, hydrographic, or geographic

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<v Speaker 1>characteristics of a particular area. Oh wow, that's from Reconnaissance

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<v Speaker 1>US Army FM seven ninety two, Chapter four.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So basically just gathering intel before you before you

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<v Speaker 2>make your move.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And the book outlines a specific process called

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<v Speaker 1>the covert reconnaissance method covert reconnaissance method, uh huh, which

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<v Speaker 1>is a six step system for gathering information and verifying

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<v Speaker 1>your goals for repeatable results.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so six steps.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it all starts with gathering open source intelligence or.

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<v Speaker 2>OCENT so like Internet sleuthing essentially, Yeah, pretty.

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<v Speaker 1>Much, okay, And it's really amazing what you can find

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<v Speaker 1>out about people and places just by you know, searching online.

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<v Speaker 1>Like the book actually mentions how even a simple name

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<v Speaker 1>like John Doe can be turned into actual actionable intel.

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<v Speaker 2>Hmmm.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of crazy, it is.

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<v Speaker 2>It just highlights how much information is available, i know,

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<v Speaker 2>right in the digital age.

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<v Speaker 1>It's crazy for everyone.

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<v Speaker 2>And how Red teamers can use that to their advantage.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but it's not it's not just about online research.

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<v Speaker 2>What else is there?

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<v Speaker 1>The next step is estimating resources resources, which includes things

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<v Speaker 1>like time and travel, right, yeah, especially for you know

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<v Speaker 1>multi day operations.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, especially those those.

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<v Speaker 1>Logistical details can really you know, make or break emission.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure. So it's not just about being like sneaky and

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<v Speaker 2>picking locks, No, it's it's about the planning, the logistics

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<v Speaker 2>and being able to adapt to like unexpected challenges.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And the book also highlights a very specific

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<v Speaker 1>method for tactical guidance during you know, execution. It's called RECONCU,

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<v Speaker 1>which stands for contact conceal capture. It emphasizes how how

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<v Speaker 1>it's like a multi layered approach to planning and carrying

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<v Speaker 1>out these operations.

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<v Speaker 2>That's really interesting how much goes into all of this.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a lot more than I thought.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so even if we're not, you know, planning to

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<v Speaker 1>infiltrate oil refineries, what can we learn from all this?

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<v Speaker 1>What does all this mean for you know, the average person?

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<v Speaker 2>I think I think the biggest takeaway is that security

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<v Speaker 2>is often about more than just technology. It's about understanding

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<v Speaker 2>human behavior, identifying weak points, thinking like an attacker so

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<v Speaker 2>you can stay one step ahead.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a mental exercise in risk assessment.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Even in our daily lives, we should be thinking what

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<v Speaker 1>are my weak point points? What would someone who's motivated,

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<v Speaker 1>what would they try to exploit?

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly. You have to develop that security mindset, which you

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<v Speaker 2>can apply to anything from your home to your work

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<v Speaker 2>to your online accounts.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a really good point. It's about being proactive and

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<v Speaker 1>thinking critically about you know, our own security.

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<v Speaker 2>Posture, right, And as technology and physical security become more

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<v Speaker 2>and more intertwined, this is going to be even more important.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great segue to what we'll be exploring next time. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to dive into some of the specific tactics

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<v Speaker 1>and tools that red teams use during those like really

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<v Speaker 1>intense offensive strike operations. Oh okay, yeah, I think lock

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<v Speaker 1>picking bypassing alarms and even you know, dealing with those

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<v Speaker 1>like ever present security cameras.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's going to be interesting. So that's where the

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<v Speaker 2>planning meets the real world challenges.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's going to be fun. Stay tuned for part two,

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<v Speaker 1>where we unpack the tools and techniques of physical red teaming.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back. Let's delve into that tactical side of physical

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<v Speaker 2>red teaming, specifically those you know, heart pounding offensive strike operations.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I'm ready to get tactical. So we talked about

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<v Speaker 1>all the planning and reconnaissance that goes into a red

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<v Speaker 1>team operation. But now let's imagine the team's actually on site,

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<v Speaker 1>they're ready to put that plan into action. What like,

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<v Speaker 1>what are some of the first obstacles they might encounter.

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<v Speaker 2>So one of the most common things you'll see are

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<v Speaker 2>ground sensors.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>These are devices that are you know, designed to detect

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<v Speaker 2>any movement or vibrations in the ground. They're often used

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<v Speaker 2>to protect like perimeters or like sensitive areas.

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<v Speaker 1>So like those pressure plates you see in movies that

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<v Speaker 1>trigger like traps, and stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, similar concept, but they're much more sophisticated. Okay, they're

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<v Speaker 2>often buried underground, so they're really hard to spot.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh that sounds tricky. How do they even know if

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<v Speaker 1>they're there?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, sometimes you can, you know, see signs of them,

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<v Speaker 2>like you might see some cabling or some disturbed earth.

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<v Speaker 2>But oftentimes it really requires there is a bit of cleverness.

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<v Speaker 2>Like the book actually mentions this story, okay, where a

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<v Speaker 2>Red Team volunteered to walk dogs at a nearby humane

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<v Speaker 2>society just to get a closer look at the facility

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<v Speaker 2>without you know, raising any suspicion.

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<v Speaker 1>They used dog walking as a cover for reconnaissance.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a pretty good cover, you know, in this case.

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<v Speaker 2>It gave them a plausible reason to be there, and

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<v Speaker 2>it allowed them to you know, scan for any telltale

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<v Speaker 2>signs of those ground sensors. But you have to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure that your your cover story actually aligns with your

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<v Speaker 2>your profile, right and the environment.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it has to be believable, right. Okay, So let's

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<v Speaker 1>say they actually, you know, identify that there are ground sensors,

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<v Speaker 1>then what how do they deal with them?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, one tactic that the book mentions is to actually

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<v Speaker 2>create a series of false alarms interesting to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>overwhelm the system and like desensitize those security personnel.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh so it's like the Boy who Cried Wolf. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>but for secure systems exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>But it does require you know, pretty precise timing and execution.

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<v Speaker 2>If the red team ends up triggering like a real response, right, well,

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<v Speaker 2>that could compromise the whole mission. But when it's done right,

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<v Speaker 2>it can really create a window of opportunity.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so false alarms are one option. What are some

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<v Speaker 1>other ways to deal with these with these ground sensors, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>Another tactic is to use tools to physically disable them, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>or to disrupt their signals. Okay, but this requires you know,

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<v Speaker 2>technical knowledge of how those systems work and having the

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<v Speaker 2>right equipment to do it safely.

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<v Speaker 1>So like some kind of high tech gadget that like

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<v Speaker 1>sends out a jamming signal or something.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there are definitely specialized tools for that, but sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>even something as simple as like a well placed piece

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<v Speaker 2>of metal can disrupt a sensor signal.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>It all depends on the type of sensor and the environment.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's a combination of like technical know how and

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<v Speaker 1>and creative problem solving. Okay, so ground sensors are just

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<v Speaker 1>one layer of security. What else is there?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, another common obstacle is fencing, particularly anti climb fencing,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, designed to prevent people from climbing over it.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, so I'm guessing like a simple booster in

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<v Speaker 1>your buddy's not going to work here.

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<v Speaker 2>No, anti climb fencing usually has this like very narrow

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<v Speaker 2>mesh pattern that's really hard to grip, and a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of them even have like barbed wire or spikes along

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<v Speaker 2>the top.

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<v Speaker 1>Ouch. Okay, so how do red teams get past that? Like?

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<v Speaker 1>Do they just bring ladders?

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes? Yes, But again the choice of tools and tactics

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<v Speaker 2>always depends on the situation and the rules of engagement,

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<v Speaker 2>Like a ladder might be too obvious or too risky.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so what are their options then?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, they might use things like wire cutters or bolt cutters,

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<v Speaker 2>or even specialized climbing gear. It really depends on what

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<v Speaker 2>kind of fencing it is, right and how you know,

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<v Speaker 2>what level of security we're talking about. But sometimes it's

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<v Speaker 2>about exploiting a weakness in the fence's design or how

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<v Speaker 2>it was installed.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, so they have to be like part engineer,

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<v Speaker 1>part athlete and part detective.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty much. Physical. Red teaming requires a pretty diverse

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<v Speaker 2>skill set.

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<v Speaker 1>I bet okay. So they bypassed the ground sensors, they

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<v Speaker 1>scale the fence. What's next? Are they home free? Not quite?

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<v Speaker 2>They still have to contend with locks, which is another

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<v Speaker 2>you know, ubiquitous security measure.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, right, the good old fashioned lock and key.

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<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't have thought those would be so relevant in

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<v Speaker 1>our like high tech world.

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<v Speaker 2>You'd be surprised. Locks are everywhere and they come in

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<v Speaker 2>a pretty surprising variety and complexity.

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<v Speaker 1>So how does a red team approach something as seemingly

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<v Speaker 1>simple as a lock? Like? Do they just carry around

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<v Speaker 1>like a giant key ring with every key imaginable?

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<v Speaker 2>It wouldn't be very practical, would it. No?

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<v Speaker 1>Probably not.

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<v Speaker 2>While having a variety of tools is definitely helpful, The

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<v Speaker 2>key is knowing which tool to use for which lock.

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<v Speaker 2>It's about understanding the mechanics of all the different lock

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<v Speaker 2>type and what techniques you can use to buyopass them.

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<v Speaker 1>So are we talking lock picking here like you see

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<v Speaker 1>in spy movies?

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly? Red teamers are usually pretty skilled in a variety

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<v Speaker 2>of lock picking techniques. They use tools like tension wrenches, picks, rakes,

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<v Speaker 2>even specialized electric lock picks for those more advanced locks.

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<v Speaker 1>Electric lock picks, Now that sounds pretty high tech.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Technology is always evolving, and lock picking tools are

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<v Speaker 2>no exception. But even with advanced tools, it still requires

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of skill and a lot of practice.

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<v Speaker 1>I bet it's a pretty satisfying feeling when you finally

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<v Speaker 1>hear that click and that lock opens.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure it is. But it's important to remember all

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<v Speaker 2>of these skills are used in a controlled, ethical environment.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, this is part of a professional security assessment.

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<v Speaker 1>Right of course, it's all about helping those organizations improve

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<v Speaker 1>their security. Yeah, you know, not causing chaos precisely. Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's say they've gotten past the ground sensors, the fence,

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<v Speaker 1>the locks, Okay, they're in.

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<v Speaker 2>What comes next, Well, they'll probably encounter some alarms, right,

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<v Speaker 2>which are you know, another layer of security that's pretty

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<v Speaker 2>common in these types of environments, And alarms can be

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<v Speaker 2>really tricky because they're designed to trigger that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>really quick response.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm picturing like flashing red lights and sirens going off.

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<v Speaker 1>So how do how do red teams deal with that? Like?

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<v Speaker 1>Do they just sprint for their objective and hope they're

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<v Speaker 1>like fast enough.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's a little morphinesse than that. Red teams need

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<v Speaker 2>to understand all the different types of alarms and how

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<v Speaker 2>to bypass them. For example, motion sensors are often used

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<v Speaker 2>to detect any movement in specific areas.

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<v Speaker 1>Like those laser beams you see in like heist movies

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<v Speaker 1>and stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah that's the Hollywood version, right, but in reality they're

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<v Speaker 2>often much more discrete. They use infrared or microwave technology

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<v Speaker 2>to detect movement.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so how do you how do you even get

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<v Speaker 1>past a motion sensor without setting off the alarm? Do

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<v Speaker 1>you have to like freeze like a statue?

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's not quite that simple. There are a few techniques,

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<v Speaker 2>and they range from you know, maybe disabling the sensor

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<v Speaker 2>itself to using some kind of distraction or just carefully

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<v Speaker 2>navigating the environment so you can avoid the sensor's detection range.

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<v Speaker 1>So like maybe toss a tennis ball to distract it potentially,

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<v Speaker 1>or crawl on your belly to stay below its line

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<v Speaker 1>of sight.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, could involve things like that. It all requires careful

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<v Speaker 2>observation and really understanding how that sensor works.

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<v Speaker 1>I must be pretty intense trying to like move through

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<v Speaker 1>a secured environment knowing that one wrong step could trigger

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<v Speaker 1>the alarm and like bring the whole operation to a

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<v Speaker 1>screeching halt.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, there's definitely a lot of pressure. And motion

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<v Speaker 2>sensors are just one type. Contact sensors, which are often

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<v Speaker 2>used on doors and windows, are another challenge they'll face.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you if you open a door or a

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<v Speaker 1>window that's protected by a contact sensor, then the alarm

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<v Speaker 1>goes off exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>It's based on this simple circuit that breaks when the

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<v Speaker 2>door or window opens.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so how how do red teams deal with that?

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<v Speaker 1>Do they have to find a way to open it

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<v Speaker 1>without actually breaking the circuit?

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<v Speaker 2>That's one approach, like maybe carefully shimmying a window open

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<v Speaker 2>without unlatching it, or using a tool to bypass a sensor.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that sounds like it would require a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>skill and like precision.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you definitely need a delicate touch when you're working

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<v Speaker 2>with contact sensors. But like with any challenge in physical

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<v Speaker 2>red teaming, it's all about understanding that system and finding

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<v Speaker 2>that way to exploit its weaknesses.

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<v Speaker 1>It's really fascinating how much of this is about kind

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<v Speaker 1>of outsmarting technology. Yeah, almost like a game of chess.

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<v Speaker 2>There's definitely a strategic element to it. But we can't

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<v Speaker 2>forget about maybe the most pervasive security measure we see today,

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<v Speaker 2>which our camera.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh right, cameras are everywhere these days, everywhere. It feels

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<v Speaker 1>like we're like constantly being watched. So how do red

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<v Speaker 1>teams operate under that kind of surveillance? Do they have

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<v Speaker 1>to like be Ninja's dodging spotlights and leaping from rooftop

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<v Speaker 1>to rooftop.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not quite as dramatic as that, but you know,

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<v Speaker 2>avoiding cameras is a critical part of the job.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Red teams will spend a lot of time studying blueprints,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, analyzing camera footage, mapping out that whole environment

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<v Speaker 2>just to identify any blind spots or any areas where

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<v Speaker 2>they can move undetected.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's about like understanding those limitations of the camera

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<v Speaker 1>system and using the environment you know, to your advantage.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, it might involve using shadows, staying low to the ground,

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<v Speaker 2>timing your movements to those blind spots in the cameras coverage.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, but what if what if avoiding them is just

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<v Speaker 1>not possible? Like what if they absolutely have to go

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<v Speaker 1>through an area where there are cameras everywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>In those cases, they might resort to other tactics like

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<v Speaker 2>using disguises or blending in with the crowd to avoid

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<v Speaker 2>being easily identified.

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<v Speaker 1>So like maybe putting on a janitor's uniform, yeah, or

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<v Speaker 1>you know, just usually strolling past with a group.

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<v Speaker 2>Of tourists exactly. It's all about being creative, using deception

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<v Speaker 2>to make yourself less conspicuous.

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<v Speaker 1>What if even that's not enough, what if they actually

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<v Speaker 1>need to like disable a camera temporarily.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there are ways to do that, but those are

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<v Speaker 2>really those tactics are a last resort and only if

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<v Speaker 2>it's specifically outlined in the in the rules of engagement.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, because you don't want to like cause any unnecessary

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<v Speaker 1>damage or raise any unnecessary alarms, right. It's about being

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<v Speaker 1>strategic and minimizing risk.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and it's important to reiterate these techniques are only

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<v Speaker 2>used in a controlled and ethical environment as part of

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<v Speaker 2>a professional security assessment.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course. So we've talked about ground sensors and fences

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<v Speaker 1>and locks, alarms, cameras. It sounds like like every step

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<v Speaker 1>of the way there's another challenge to overcome.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>But let's say the Red Team has navigated all these obstacles,

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<v Speaker 1>they've reached their objective. What happens next, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>That's when they move into the penetrate and control phase.

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<v Speaker 1>And that I mean that sounds that sounds pretty self explanatory,

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<v Speaker 1>but what does what does that actually involve?

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<v Speaker 2>It's basically about establishing that foothold within the target environment,

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00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:16.079
<v Speaker 2>maintaining control of the situation, and ensuring that the mission

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<v Speaker 2>objectives are met.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's not enough just to get in. They have

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00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:22.160
<v Speaker 1>to be able to stay there and carry out their plan.

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00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:25.559
<v Speaker 2>And that might involve things like setting up like a

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00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:30.200
<v Speaker 2>temporary command post, securing their communication lines, or even you know,

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00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:35.359
<v Speaker 2>disabling additional security measures just to create that safe operating space.

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00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.720
<v Speaker 1>I bet that takes a lot of a lot of

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00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:42.759
<v Speaker 1>situational awareness. Oh yeah, and the ability to like think

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00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:43.359
<v Speaker 1>on your feet.

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00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:47.319
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. The penetrate and control phase is often very unpredictable. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and they need to be prepared for anything.

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00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.839
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So what what are some of the key considerations

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00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:54.200
<v Speaker 1>during this phase?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, one important factor is the duration of the operation.

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<v Speaker 2>How long does the Red Team need to remain in

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<v Speaker 2>actually you know, accomplish everything They need to.

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<v Speaker 1>Do, right, because I mentioned the longer they stay in there,

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<v Speaker 1>the more likely they are to be contacted.

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00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:11.400
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, So you have to carefully balance that need to

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<v Speaker 2>gather information with minimizing their exposure.

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00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Right. Okay, what else, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>Another key consideration is communication. How do they maintain contact with.

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00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:25.400
<v Speaker 1>Their base, right, because they can't exactly just like pull

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00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.160
<v Speaker 1>out their cell phones and start texting each other.

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00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:31.119
<v Speaker 2>No, they have to use secure communication methods that won't,

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00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:34.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, compromise their location or the entire mission.

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<v Speaker 1>So think like encrypted radios or specialized messaging apps exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And communication is crucial not only for relaying information, but

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<v Speaker 2>for coordinating their actions and responding to anything unexpected that happens.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's like the lifeline. Yeah, that connects them to

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00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:58.759
<v Speaker 1>the outside world precisely. Okay, So the Red team has

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00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:03.000
<v Speaker 1>established control, they're communicating electively, they're carrying out their mission.

429
00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:05.920
<v Speaker 2>What happens next, Well, eventually they're going to have to

430
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:07.200
<v Speaker 2>exfiltrade XFRAL trade.

431
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.160
<v Speaker 1>That sounds a little dramatic.

432
00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:12.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but it just means leaving the target environment, okay,

433
00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:13.519
<v Speaker 2>safely and discreetly.

434
00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:16.240
<v Speaker 1>Right, And I'm guessing that's not as easy as just

435
00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:17.559
<v Speaker 1>you know, walking out the front door.

436
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:21.680
<v Speaker 2>Not Usually, the Red Team has to very carefully plan

437
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:27.759
<v Speaker 2>their exit route, taking into account any potential obstacles, security patrols,

438
00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:28.880
<v Speaker 2>surveillance systems.

439
00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.160
<v Speaker 1>So it's like a it's like a strategic retreat, minimizing

440
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:34.440
<v Speaker 1>minimizing risk at every turn.

441
00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:37.839
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and communication is still crucial in this phase. They

442
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:40.519
<v Speaker 2>have to stay in contact with their base, letting them

443
00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:42.799
<v Speaker 2>know where they are and if there are any obstacles

444
00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:43.319
<v Speaker 2>or any.

445
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.119
<v Speaker 1>Threats, so if something unexpected happens, they can you know,

446
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:48.759
<v Speaker 1>call for backup or change their plans.

447
00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:50.519
<v Speaker 2>Right. Flexibility is essential.

448
00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:54.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So let's say the Red Team has managed to

449
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:57.279
<v Speaker 1>evade all those security measures and they've made it back

450
00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:01.480
<v Speaker 1>to their rendezvous point. What happens next? Do they all

451
00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:04.400
<v Speaker 1>go out for like pizza to celebrate a successful mission.

452
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, a celebratory pizza might come later, but first there's

453
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:10.400
<v Speaker 2>the debriefing process. That's where the team gathers to share

454
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:13.759
<v Speaker 2>their observations, you know, their insights, and any evidence they've collected.

455
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:17.319
<v Speaker 1>So we're talking notes, photos, videos, maybe even like physical

456
00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:20.000
<v Speaker 1>samples of locks or security systems.

457
00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:22.799
<v Speaker 2>Yes, all of that, and all that information is carefully

458
00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:27.279
<v Speaker 2>documented and analyzed to identify vulnerabilities, assess how effective the

459
00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:31.079
<v Speaker 2>current security is, and develop recommendations on how to make

460
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:31.720
<v Speaker 2>things better.

461
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.599
<v Speaker 1>So the expiltration isn't just about escaping, it's about bringing

462
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.720
<v Speaker 1>back that valuable intelligence that they can use to make

463
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:41.000
<v Speaker 1>the target environment more secure exactly.

464
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.359
<v Speaker 2>And that's the ultimate goal of physical red teaming, identifying

465
00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:49.799
<v Speaker 2>and mitigating those weaknesses before a real attacker can exploit them.

466
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:53.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think we've explored just about every aspect of

467
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:55.920
<v Speaker 1>physical red teaming in this deep dive, from the planning

468
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.440
<v Speaker 1>and reconnaissance to those daring offensive strikes to these strictrategic

469
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:03.119
<v Speaker 1>retreat of exfiltration. It's been a wild ride.

470
00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:07.480
<v Speaker 2>We've really delved into the mindset, the methodology, and those

471
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.440
<v Speaker 2>tactics that they use to test and strengthen security.

472
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:13.480
<v Speaker 1>It's clear that this line of work takes like a

473
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:17.119
<v Speaker 1>unique blend of technical expertise and physical ability and strategic

474
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.480
<v Speaker 1>thinking and like a good dose of creativity.

475
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:23.480
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, physical red teaming is challenging, but it's vital in

476
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:24.160
<v Speaker 2>today's world.

477
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:25.839
<v Speaker 1>So as we wrap up, I want to leave our

478
00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:29.240
<v Speaker 1>listeners with one final thought to ponder. In an age

479
00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:32.799
<v Speaker 1>where technology is constantly evolving and security threats are becoming

480
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:37.359
<v Speaker 1>more sophisticated. How will physical red teaming adapt, you know,

481
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.079
<v Speaker 1>what new tools and tactics will they come up with.

482
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.319
<v Speaker 1>How will they continue to push the boundaries to ensure

483
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:47.799
<v Speaker 1>that our critical infrastructure and sensitive information are protected.

484
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:50.400
<v Speaker 2>It's a great question. The world of security never stands

485
00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:53.160
<v Speaker 2>still no, and red teaming is going to have to

486
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:54.519
<v Speaker 2>evolve right along with it.

487
00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:57.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a reminder that security is an ongoing process.

488
00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:01.920
<v Speaker 1>It's a constant like game cat and mouse between those

489
00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:04.279
<v Speaker 1>who are trying to protect things and those who are

490
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:05.759
<v Speaker 1>trying to you know, exploit them.

491
00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:09.079
<v Speaker 2>I agree, and understanding the principles of physical red teaming

492
00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:11.759
<v Speaker 2>can help us all, you know, just become more aware

493
00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:14.920
<v Speaker 2>of our own security vulnerabilities and hopefully, you know, take

494
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:18.000
<v Speaker 2>steps to mitigate those risks, whether it's in our homes,

495
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:20.759
<v Speaker 2>our workplaces, you know, yeah, even online.

496
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:22.960
<v Speaker 1>That's that's a really good point. Well, thank you for

497
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.039
<v Speaker 1>joining us for this deep dive into the world of

498
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:29.079
<v Speaker 1>physical red teaming. We hope you found it informative, thought provoking,

499
00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:33.119
<v Speaker 1>and maybe even a little bit inspiring. Until next time,

500
00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:38.400
<v Speaker 1>stay curious, stay vigilant, and stay secure. We're back and

501
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:42.240
<v Speaker 1>ready to wrap up our deep dive into physical red teaming.

502
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:44.960
<v Speaker 1>We've talked about like everything from the planning and recon

503
00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:48.000
<v Speaker 1>to those you know, those crazy offensive strikes. But as

504
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.319
<v Speaker 1>we've learned, getting out can be just as hard as

505
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:50.759
<v Speaker 1>getting in.

506
00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:54.279
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, exfiltration is a final act and it really requires

507
00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:57.599
<v Speaker 2>that same level of planning and careful execution as every

508
00:25:57.640 --> 00:25:58.920
<v Speaker 2>other part of the operation.

509
00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:02.440
<v Speaker 1>So let's talk about that art of like, you know, disappearing.

510
00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:04.480
<v Speaker 1>What are some of the key things to keep in

511
00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:07.079
<v Speaker 1>mind for really successful exultration.

512
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, the biggest thing is avoiding detection. The teams work

513
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:12.400
<v Speaker 2>so hard to stay under the radar, you know, they

514
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.759
<v Speaker 2>don't want to blow their cover at the last minute.

515
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:17.440
<v Speaker 1>Right, imagine making it through the whole mission, and then

516
00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:20.960
<v Speaker 1>like tripping an alarm or getting caught on camera, you know,

517
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:23.240
<v Speaker 1>on your way out, What a way to ruin a

518
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:24.440
<v Speaker 1>perfectly good infiltration.

519
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:28.400
<v Speaker 2>Right. So the exit route it's usually just as carefully

520
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:31.079
<v Speaker 2>planned as the way in. The team, you know, they'll

521
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:34.039
<v Speaker 2>analyze maps, they look at security patrols, and they try

522
00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:37.680
<v Speaker 2>to identify those like blind spots or weaknesses they can use.

523
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:42.559
<v Speaker 1>So I'm picturing like back alleys, service entrances, maybe even

524
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:45.839
<v Speaker 1>blending in with the crowd to make a quiet exit.

525
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all of those are possibilities. And they'll also think

526
00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.279
<v Speaker 2>about the time of day, whether you know, anything that

527
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:53.960
<v Speaker 2>could affect how visible they are.

528
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.799
<v Speaker 1>It's like a strategic retreat, you know, minimizing risk every

529
00:26:57.839 --> 00:26:58.200
<v Speaker 1>step of.

530
00:26:58.200 --> 00:26:59.839
<v Speaker 2>The way, right, they're not just running for the hills.

531
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And communication that's got to still be really

532
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:04.799
<v Speaker 1>important during this part.

533
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.079
<v Speaker 2>It is the team needs to stay in contact with

534
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:10.599
<v Speaker 2>their base, letting them know their location, any obstacles, any

535
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:12.079
<v Speaker 2>threats they might encounter, so.

536
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Something unexpected pops up, they can call for backup, adjust

537
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:17.279
<v Speaker 1>their plans exactly.

538
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that flexibility is so important.

539
00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:22.079
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so let's say, you know, they make it past

540
00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:25.319
<v Speaker 1>all the security measures and they're back at their meeting point. Yeah,

541
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:27.440
<v Speaker 1>what happens then do they do? They all go out

542
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:28.519
<v Speaker 1>for pizza to celebrate.

543
00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:32.359
<v Speaker 2>Huh, Well, the pizza might come later. First comes the debriefing.

544
00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:34.920
<v Speaker 2>That's where the team gets together and they share, you know,

545
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:38.160
<v Speaker 2>their observations, their insights, any evidence they've gathered, so.

546
00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:43.799
<v Speaker 1>Notes, photos, videos, maybe even like physical pieces of locks

547
00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:46.680
<v Speaker 1>or security systems they've gotten their hands.

548
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.680
<v Speaker 2>On, exactly, and all of that is carefully documented and

549
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:52.599
<v Speaker 2>then analyzed to you know, really figure out where the

550
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:56.559
<v Speaker 2>vulnerabilities are, how effective the security measures were, and what

551
00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:58.519
<v Speaker 2>recommendations they can make for improvement.

552
00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:02.599
<v Speaker 1>So exiltration isn't just about getting away, it's about bringing

553
00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:05.480
<v Speaker 1>back that valuable information to make things more secure.

554
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:08.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's really the whole point of physical red teaming,

555
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:12.200
<v Speaker 2>finding those weak spots and fixing them before a real

556
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:13.359
<v Speaker 2>attacker can use them.

557
00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:16.079
<v Speaker 1>I think we've really covered every angle of physical red

558
00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:19.519
<v Speaker 1>teaming in this deep dive, from that super detailed planning

559
00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:22.359
<v Speaker 1>to those you know, those intense offensive strikes, to that

560
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:27.519
<v Speaker 1>strategic retreat of exultration. It's it's been pretty fascinating it has.

561
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.960
<v Speaker 2>We've gone deep into the mindset, the methodology, you know,

562
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:34.559
<v Speaker 2>the actual tactics that these professionals use to test and

563
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:35.640
<v Speaker 2>strengthen security.

564
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:38.039
<v Speaker 1>And it's clear this line of work takes a special

565
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:44.039
<v Speaker 1>combination of skills, technical expertise, physical ability, strategic thinking, and

566
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:45.400
<v Speaker 1>a whole lot of creativity.

567
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, physical red teaming is a challenging field, but it's

568
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:50.880
<v Speaker 2>incredibly important in the world today.

569
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:53.319
<v Speaker 1>So as we wrap up this episode, I want to

570
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:56.279
<v Speaker 1>leave our listeners with something to think about. In a

571
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:00.400
<v Speaker 1>world where technology keeps changing and those security threats becoming

572
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:04.400
<v Speaker 1>more and more complex. How will physical red teaming keep up.

573
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:07.440
<v Speaker 1>What new tools and tactics will they need to develop,

574
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.240
<v Speaker 1>How will they continue to push the boundaries to make

575
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:12.680
<v Speaker 1>sure that you know that our critical infrastructure and all

576
00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:15.000
<v Speaker 1>our sensitive information stay protected.

577
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.079
<v Speaker 2>It's a great question to consider the world of security

578
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:20.640
<v Speaker 2>and never sit still, and red teaming has to change

579
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 2>and adapt right along with it.

580
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:26.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a constant reminder that security is an ongoing process.

581
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:28.880
<v Speaker 1>It's a never ending game, you know, between the people

582
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:30.920
<v Speaker 1>who are working so hard to protect things and those

583
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.119
<v Speaker 1>who are looking to exploit them.

584
00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:35.799
<v Speaker 2>Right, and I think understanding the principles of physical red

585
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:38.640
<v Speaker 2>teaming can help all of us be more aware of

586
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:42.119
<v Speaker 2>those security vulnerabilities in our own lives and hopefully take

587
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:45.119
<v Speaker 2>those steps to minimize those risks, whether it's at home,

588
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:46.599
<v Speaker 2>at work, or even online.

589
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:49.799
<v Speaker 1>Well said, thank you for joining us for this deep

590
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:52.720
<v Speaker 1>dive into the world of physical red teaming. We hope

591
00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:55.599
<v Speaker 1>you found it, you know, informative and interesting and maybe

592
00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:59.319
<v Speaker 1>even a little bit inspiring. Until next time, stay curious,

593
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:01.519
<v Speaker 1>stay vis and stay secure.