Speaker 1: Welcome back, everyone, Ready for another deep dive Today, we're
Speaker 1: going exploring the world of physical red teaming. Oh interesting, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've got an excerpt from this book Physical Red Team Operations, Okay,
Speaker 1: by Jeremiah Talamantes. It's well, it's all about how security
Speaker 1: professionals test physical security, you know, like in the real world, right,
Speaker 1: And they actually used the same tactics as like real
Speaker 1: world bad actors would.
Speaker 2: So kind of like thinking like the enemy to beat them, Yeah,
Speaker 2: at our own game.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny. The book starts off with
Speaker 1: this this crazy story about a group of hackers who
Speaker 1: actually like infiltrated a US oil refinery.
Speaker 2: Whoa really yeah, not virtually, I'm assuming no, like.
Speaker 1: Physically got inside.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's a what do they use like some
Speaker 2: high tech method to do that?
Speaker 1: No, that's the thing they didn't. Oh wow. It was
Speaker 1: all like walkie talkies, ock picks, ladders, like basic stuff.
Speaker 1: But they applied it all strategically.
Speaker 2: That's interest saying that they didn't use some super high
Speaker 2: tech method. It was more yeah, just basic stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's almost like more unsettling, right that it
Speaker 1: was so low tech.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if they can get into a refinery that easily.
Speaker 2: What else is vulnerable?
Speaker 1: Right? Like, if a refinery is vulnerable to that, what
Speaker 1: about other places? Right? Yeah? And the author he was
Speaker 1: actually hired to like test their security. He even said,
Speaker 1: and I quote the implication is pretty devastating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see why he'd say. That really exposes
Speaker 2: how there's this gap between perceived security and actual vulnerability totally.
Speaker 2: Like sometimes the simplest method is the most effective, absolutely,
Speaker 2: especially if you can exploit human error or complacency.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this leads us to the methodology that the
Speaker 1: book outlines. It's called red tmopsia.
Speaker 2: Red tmopsia okay, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: It's a twelve step process. It's kind of like a
Speaker 1: military operation.
Speaker 2: Wow, twelve steps. Yeah, so what is that? What does
Speaker 2: that acronym actually stand for?
Speaker 1: So it's rules of engagement, reconnaissance, direct, preparations, trigger, mobilization, execute, staging,
Speaker 1: assess and acclimate, maneuver operations, offensive, strike, penetrate and control,
Speaker 1: secure opiord and then evacuate, evade, and cover. Hmm. Oh wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's it's pretty Uh, that's a mouthful. It's a mouthful,
Speaker 1: but you know, it makes sense that it would be
Speaker 1: so structured given like the sensitive nature of what they're doing,
Speaker 1: And the book uses a lot of imagery, you know,
Speaker 1: of soldiers and weapons really, which really emphasizes how seriously
Speaker 1: these teams take their work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes you really realize it's not just a
Speaker 2: game exactly, it's their real world consequences.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so before we before we break down this whole methodology,
Speaker 1: let's let's clarify what exactly is physical red teaming. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what are we actually talking about?
Speaker 2: Yeah, when we say that, it's essentially i'd say it's
Speaker 2: all about understanding a target's vulnerabilities from an attacker's perspective.
Speaker 2: So it's more than just breaking in. It's about identifying
Speaker 2: the most likely ways that someone could attack based on
Speaker 2: the target's own threat profile.
Speaker 1: Okay, so, like if you're testing the security of a bank,
Speaker 1: you'd need to think about how a bank robber would
Speaker 1: act as opposed to say.
Speaker 2: A vandal Exactly. You have to tailor the approach to
Speaker 2: the most realistic threats. And that's where this concept of
Speaker 2: TTPs comes in. GTPs tactics, techniques, and procedures. By actually
Speaker 2: studying the patterns that real world bad actors use, red
Speaker 2: teams can create these realistic simulations, okay, to see how
Speaker 2: the target would actually respond in a real situation.
Speaker 1: Oh, so they're not just trying to get in any
Speaker 1: way possible, they're trying to get in the way that
Speaker 1: a real attacker would. Yes, which makes the test that
Speaker 1: much more valuable.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that leads into a very important aspect of
Speaker 2: physical red teaming, which are the rules of engagement or ROWE.
Speaker 2: This is essentially a contract that outlines the specific boundaries
Speaker 2: and limitations of the operation, so.
Speaker 1: Things like like what areas are totally off limits, what
Speaker 1: tactics are acceptable, how to handle potential damage to property exactly.
Speaker 2: It's all about ensuring that everything's done ethically, legally and
Speaker 2: with you know, minimal disruption to the client. And damage
Speaker 2: to property is a big one because sometimes it's necessary
Speaker 2: to kind of simulate a real attack, like you know,
Speaker 2: picking a lock or disabling a sensor, but that is
Speaker 2: always discussed and agreed upon with the client beforehand.
Speaker 1: Right like in that lock example you were talking about,
Speaker 1: before damaging the lock might be okay if that's like
Speaker 1: a really common way that people attack that type of facility,
Speaker 1: and the client knows and understands the risks.
Speaker 2: And the cost precisely, it's a delicate balance, you know,
Speaker 2: between realism and the client's needs, and clear communication and
Speaker 2: documentation are absolutely essential throughout this entire.
Speaker 1: Process, right, Transparency is key.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: So once those those ground rules are set, then the
Speaker 1: Red team can get to like I think the most
Speaker 1: exciting part, which is reconnaissance, you know, getting to be
Speaker 1: sneaky and all that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So what's their definition of reconnaissance?
Speaker 1: Let me see, hold on. The book defines it as
Speaker 1: a mission to obtain information by visual observation or other
Speaker 1: detection methods about the activities and resources of an enemy
Speaker 1: or potential enemy, or about the meteorological, hydrographic, or geographic
Speaker 1: characteristics of a particular area. Oh wow, that's from Reconnaissance
Speaker 1: US Army FM seven ninety two, Chapter four.
Speaker 2: Okay, So basically just gathering intel before you before you
Speaker 2: make your move.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And the book outlines a specific process called
Speaker 1: the covert reconnaissance method covert reconnaissance method, uh huh, which
Speaker 1: is a six step system for gathering information and verifying
Speaker 1: your goals for repeatable results.
Speaker 2: Okay, so six steps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it all starts with gathering open source intelligence or.
Speaker 2: OCENT so like Internet sleuthing essentially, Yeah, pretty.
Speaker 1: Much, okay, And it's really amazing what you can find
Speaker 1: out about people and places just by you know, searching online.
Speaker 1: Like the book actually mentions how even a simple name
Speaker 1: like John Doe can be turned into actual actionable intel.
Speaker 2: Hmmm.
Speaker 1: It's kind of crazy, it is.
Speaker 2: It just highlights how much information is available, i know,
Speaker 2: right in the digital age.
Speaker 1: It's crazy for everyone.
Speaker 2: And how Red teamers can use that to their advantage.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's not it's not just about online research.
Speaker 2: What else is there?
Speaker 1: The next step is estimating resources resources, which includes things
Speaker 1: like time and travel, right, yeah, especially for you know
Speaker 1: multi day operations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially those those.
Speaker 1: Logistical details can really you know, make or break emission.
Speaker 2: Sure. So it's not just about being like sneaky and
Speaker 2: picking locks, No, it's it's about the planning, the logistics
Speaker 2: and being able to adapt to like unexpected challenges.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And the book also highlights a very specific
Speaker 1: method for tactical guidance during you know, execution. It's called RECONCU,
Speaker 1: which stands for contact conceal capture. It emphasizes how how
Speaker 1: it's like a multi layered approach to planning and carrying
Speaker 1: out these operations.
Speaker 2: That's really interesting how much goes into all of this.
Speaker 2: It's a lot more than I thought.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so even if we're not, you know, planning to
Speaker 1: infiltrate oil refineries, what can we learn from all this?
Speaker 1: What does all this mean for you know, the average person?
Speaker 2: I think I think the biggest takeaway is that security
Speaker 2: is often about more than just technology. It's about understanding
Speaker 2: human behavior, identifying weak points, thinking like an attacker so
Speaker 2: you can stay one step ahead.
Speaker 1: It's like a mental exercise in risk assessment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Even in our daily lives, we should be thinking what
Speaker 1: are my weak point points? What would someone who's motivated,
Speaker 1: what would they try to exploit?
Speaker 2: Exactly. You have to develop that security mindset, which you
Speaker 2: can apply to anything from your home to your work
Speaker 2: to your online accounts.
Speaker 1: That's a really good point. It's about being proactive and
Speaker 1: thinking critically about you know, our own security.
Speaker 2: Posture, right, And as technology and physical security become more
Speaker 2: and more intertwined, this is going to be even more important.
Speaker 1: That's a great segue to what we'll be exploring next time. Actually,
Speaker 1: I'm going to dive into some of the specific tactics
Speaker 1: and tools that red teams use during those like really
Speaker 1: intense offensive strike operations. Oh okay, yeah, I think lock
Speaker 1: picking bypassing alarms and even you know, dealing with those
Speaker 1: like ever present security cameras.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's going to be interesting. So that's where the
Speaker 2: planning meets the real world challenges.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's going to be fun. Stay tuned for part two,
Speaker 1: where we unpack the tools and techniques of physical red teaming.
Speaker 2: Welcome back. Let's delve into that tactical side of physical
Speaker 2: red teaming, specifically those you know, heart pounding offensive strike operations.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm ready to get tactical. So we talked about
Speaker 1: all the planning and reconnaissance that goes into a red
Speaker 1: team operation. But now let's imagine the team's actually on site,
Speaker 1: they're ready to put that plan into action. What like,
Speaker 1: what are some of the first obstacles they might encounter.
Speaker 2: So one of the most common things you'll see are
Speaker 2: ground sensors.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: These are devices that are you know, designed to detect
Speaker 2: any movement or vibrations in the ground. They're often used
Speaker 2: to protect like perimeters or like sensitive areas.
Speaker 1: So like those pressure plates you see in movies that
Speaker 1: trigger like traps, and stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, similar concept, but they're much more sophisticated. Okay, they're
Speaker 2: often buried underground, so they're really hard to spot.
Speaker 1: Oh that sounds tricky. How do they even know if
Speaker 1: they're there?
Speaker 2: Well, sometimes you can, you know, see signs of them,
Speaker 2: like you might see some cabling or some disturbed earth.
Speaker 2: But oftentimes it really requires there is a bit of cleverness.
Speaker 2: Like the book actually mentions this story, okay, where a
Speaker 2: Red Team volunteered to walk dogs at a nearby humane
Speaker 2: society just to get a closer look at the facility
Speaker 2: without you know, raising any suspicion.
Speaker 1: They used dog walking as a cover for reconnaissance.
Speaker 2: It's a pretty good cover, you know, in this case.
Speaker 2: It gave them a plausible reason to be there, and
Speaker 2: it allowed them to you know, scan for any telltale
Speaker 2: signs of those ground sensors. But you have to make
Speaker 2: sure that your your cover story actually aligns with your
Speaker 2: your profile, right and the environment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it has to be believable, right. Okay, So let's
Speaker 1: say they actually, you know, identify that there are ground sensors,
Speaker 1: then what how do they deal with them?
Speaker 2: Well, one tactic that the book mentions is to actually
Speaker 2: create a series of false alarms interesting to kind of
Speaker 2: overwhelm the system and like desensitize those security personnel.
Speaker 1: Oh so it's like the Boy who Cried Wolf. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but for secure systems exactly.
Speaker 2: But it does require you know, pretty precise timing and execution.
Speaker 2: If the red team ends up triggering like a real response, right, well,
Speaker 2: that could compromise the whole mission. But when it's done right,
Speaker 2: it can really create a window of opportunity.
Speaker 1: Okay, so false alarms are one option. What are some
Speaker 1: other ways to deal with these with these ground sensors, Well.
Speaker 2: Another tactic is to use tools to physically disable them, okay,
Speaker 2: or to disrupt their signals. Okay, but this requires you know,
Speaker 2: technical knowledge of how those systems work and having the
Speaker 2: right equipment to do it safely.
Speaker 1: So like some kind of high tech gadget that like
Speaker 1: sends out a jamming signal or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are definitely specialized tools for that, but sometimes
Speaker 2: even something as simple as like a well placed piece
Speaker 2: of metal can disrupt a sensor signal.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: It all depends on the type of sensor and the environment.
Speaker 1: So it's a combination of like technical know how and
Speaker 1: and creative problem solving. Okay, so ground sensors are just
Speaker 1: one layer of security. What else is there?
Speaker 2: Well, another common obstacle is fencing, particularly anti climb fencing,
Speaker 2: you know, designed to prevent people from climbing over it.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, so I'm guessing like a simple booster in
Speaker 1: your buddy's not going to work here.
Speaker 2: No, anti climb fencing usually has this like very narrow
Speaker 2: mesh pattern that's really hard to grip, and a lot
Speaker 2: of them even have like barbed wire or spikes along
Speaker 2: the top.
Speaker 1: Ouch. Okay, so how do red teams get past that? Like?
Speaker 1: Do they just bring ladders?
Speaker 2: Sometimes? Yes, But again the choice of tools and tactics
Speaker 2: always depends on the situation and the rules of engagement,
Speaker 2: Like a ladder might be too obvious or too risky.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what are their options then?
Speaker 2: Well, they might use things like wire cutters or bolt cutters,
Speaker 2: or even specialized climbing gear. It really depends on what
Speaker 2: kind of fencing it is, right and how you know,
Speaker 2: what level of security we're talking about. But sometimes it's
Speaker 2: about exploiting a weakness in the fence's design or how
Speaker 2: it was installed.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so they have to be like part engineer,
Speaker 1: part athlete and part detective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. Physical. Red teaming requires a pretty diverse
Speaker 2: skill set.
Speaker 1: I bet okay. So they bypassed the ground sensors, they
Speaker 1: scale the fence. What's next? Are they home free? Not quite?
Speaker 2: They still have to contend with locks, which is another
Speaker 2: you know, ubiquitous security measure.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, right, the good old fashioned lock and key.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought those would be so relevant in
Speaker 1: our like high tech world.
Speaker 2: You'd be surprised. Locks are everywhere and they come in
Speaker 2: a pretty surprising variety and complexity.
Speaker 1: So how does a red team approach something as seemingly
Speaker 1: simple as a lock? Like? Do they just carry around
Speaker 1: like a giant key ring with every key imaginable?
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be very practical, would it. No?
Speaker 1: Probably not.
Speaker 2: While having a variety of tools is definitely helpful, The
Speaker 2: key is knowing which tool to use for which lock.
Speaker 2: It's about understanding the mechanics of all the different lock
Speaker 2: type and what techniques you can use to buyopass them.
Speaker 1: So are we talking lock picking here like you see
Speaker 1: in spy movies?
Speaker 2: Exactly? Red teamers are usually pretty skilled in a variety
Speaker 2: of lock picking techniques. They use tools like tension wrenches, picks, rakes,
Speaker 2: even specialized electric lock picks for those more advanced locks.
Speaker 1: Electric lock picks, Now that sounds pretty high tech.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Technology is always evolving, and lock picking tools are
Speaker 2: no exception. But even with advanced tools, it still requires
Speaker 2: a lot of skill and a lot of practice.
Speaker 1: I bet it's a pretty satisfying feeling when you finally
Speaker 1: hear that click and that lock opens.
Speaker 2: I'm sure it is. But it's important to remember all
Speaker 2: of these skills are used in a controlled, ethical environment.
Speaker 2: You know, this is part of a professional security assessment.
Speaker 1: Right of course, it's all about helping those organizations improve
Speaker 1: their security. Yeah, you know, not causing chaos precisely. Okay.
Speaker 1: So let's say they've gotten past the ground sensors, the fence,
Speaker 1: the locks, Okay, they're in.
Speaker 2: What comes next, Well, they'll probably encounter some alarms, right,
Speaker 2: which are you know, another layer of security that's pretty
Speaker 2: common in these types of environments, And alarms can be
Speaker 2: really tricky because they're designed to trigger that you know,
Speaker 2: really quick response.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm picturing like flashing red lights and sirens going off.
Speaker 1: So how do how do red teams deal with that? Like?
Speaker 1: Do they just sprint for their objective and hope they're
Speaker 1: like fast enough.
Speaker 2: Well, it's a little morphinesse than that. Red teams need
Speaker 2: to understand all the different types of alarms and how
Speaker 2: to bypass them. For example, motion sensors are often used
Speaker 2: to detect any movement in specific areas.
Speaker 1: Like those laser beams you see in like heist movies
Speaker 1: and stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah that's the Hollywood version, right, but in reality they're
Speaker 2: often much more discrete. They use infrared or microwave technology
Speaker 2: to detect movement.
Speaker 1: Okay, so how do you how do you even get
Speaker 1: past a motion sensor without setting off the alarm? Do
Speaker 1: you have to like freeze like a statue?
Speaker 2: It's it's not quite that simple. There are a few techniques,
Speaker 2: and they range from you know, maybe disabling the sensor
Speaker 2: itself to using some kind of distraction or just carefully
Speaker 2: navigating the environment so you can avoid the sensor's detection range.
Speaker 1: So like maybe toss a tennis ball to distract it potentially,
Speaker 1: or crawl on your belly to stay below its line
Speaker 1: of sight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, could involve things like that. It all requires careful
Speaker 2: observation and really understanding how that sensor works.
Speaker 1: I must be pretty intense trying to like move through
Speaker 1: a secured environment knowing that one wrong step could trigger
Speaker 1: the alarm and like bring the whole operation to a
Speaker 1: screeching halt.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's definitely a lot of pressure. And motion
Speaker 2: sensors are just one type. Contact sensors, which are often
Speaker 2: used on doors and windows, are another challenge they'll face.
Speaker 1: So if you if you open a door or a
Speaker 1: window that's protected by a contact sensor, then the alarm
Speaker 1: goes off exactly.
Speaker 2: It's based on this simple circuit that breaks when the
Speaker 2: door or window opens.
Speaker 1: Okay, so how how do red teams deal with that?
Speaker 1: Do they have to find a way to open it
Speaker 1: without actually breaking the circuit?
Speaker 2: That's one approach, like maybe carefully shimmying a window open
Speaker 2: without unlatching it, or using a tool to bypass a sensor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds like it would require a lot of
Speaker 1: skill and like precision.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you definitely need a delicate touch when you're working
Speaker 2: with contact sensors. But like with any challenge in physical
Speaker 2: red teaming, it's all about understanding that system and finding
Speaker 2: that way to exploit its weaknesses.
Speaker 1: It's really fascinating how much of this is about kind
Speaker 1: of outsmarting technology. Yeah, almost like a game of chess.
Speaker 2: There's definitely a strategic element to it. But we can't
Speaker 2: forget about maybe the most pervasive security measure we see today,
Speaker 2: which our camera.
Speaker 1: Oh right, cameras are everywhere these days, everywhere. It feels
Speaker 1: like we're like constantly being watched. So how do red
Speaker 1: teams operate under that kind of surveillance? Do they have
Speaker 1: to like be Ninja's dodging spotlights and leaping from rooftop
Speaker 1: to rooftop.
Speaker 2: It's not quite as dramatic as that, but you know,
Speaker 2: avoiding cameras is a critical part of the job.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Red teams will spend a lot of time studying blueprints,
Speaker 2: you know, analyzing camera footage, mapping out that whole environment
Speaker 2: just to identify any blind spots or any areas where
Speaker 2: they can move undetected.
Speaker 1: So it's about like understanding those limitations of the camera
Speaker 1: system and using the environment you know, to your advantage.
Speaker 2: Right, it might involve using shadows, staying low to the ground,
Speaker 2: timing your movements to those blind spots in the cameras coverage.
Speaker 1: Okay, but what if what if avoiding them is just
Speaker 1: not possible? Like what if they absolutely have to go
Speaker 1: through an area where there are cameras everywhere.
Speaker 2: In those cases, they might resort to other tactics like
Speaker 2: using disguises or blending in with the crowd to avoid
Speaker 2: being easily identified.
Speaker 1: So like maybe putting on a janitor's uniform, yeah, or
Speaker 1: you know, just usually strolling past with a group.
Speaker 2: Of tourists exactly. It's all about being creative, using deception
Speaker 2: to make yourself less conspicuous.
Speaker 1: What if even that's not enough, what if they actually
Speaker 1: need to like disable a camera temporarily.
Speaker 2: Well, there are ways to do that, but those are
Speaker 2: really those tactics are a last resort and only if
Speaker 2: it's specifically outlined in the in the rules of engagement.
Speaker 1: Right, because you don't want to like cause any unnecessary
Speaker 1: damage or raise any unnecessary alarms, right. It's about being
Speaker 1: strategic and minimizing risk.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it's important to reiterate these techniques are only
Speaker 2: used in a controlled and ethical environment as part of
Speaker 2: a professional security assessment.
Speaker 1: Of course. So we've talked about ground sensors and fences
Speaker 1: and locks, alarms, cameras. It sounds like like every step
Speaker 1: of the way there's another challenge to overcome.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: But let's say the Red Team has navigated all these obstacles,
Speaker 1: they've reached their objective. What happens next, Well.
Speaker 2: That's when they move into the penetrate and control phase.
Speaker 1: And that I mean that sounds that sounds pretty self explanatory,
Speaker 1: but what does what does that actually involve?
Speaker 2: It's basically about establishing that foothold within the target environment,
Speaker 2: maintaining control of the situation, and ensuring that the mission
Speaker 2: objectives are met.
Speaker 1: So it's not enough just to get in. They have
Speaker 1: to be able to stay there and carry out their plan.
Speaker 2: And that might involve things like setting up like a
Speaker 2: temporary command post, securing their communication lines, or even you know,
Speaker 2: disabling additional security measures just to create that safe operating space.
Speaker 1: I bet that takes a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: situational awareness. Oh yeah, and the ability to like think
Speaker 1: on your feet.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. The penetrate and control phase is often very unpredictable. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and they need to be prepared for anything.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what what are some of the key considerations
Speaker 1: during this phase?
Speaker 2: Well, one important factor is the duration of the operation.
Speaker 2: How long does the Red Team need to remain in
Speaker 2: actually you know, accomplish everything They need to.
Speaker 1: Do, right, because I mentioned the longer they stay in there,
Speaker 1: the more likely they are to be contacted.
Speaker 2: Exactly, So you have to carefully balance that need to
Speaker 2: gather information with minimizing their exposure.
Speaker 1: Right. Okay, what else, Well.
Speaker 2: Another key consideration is communication. How do they maintain contact with.
Speaker 1: Their base, right, because they can't exactly just like pull
Speaker 1: out their cell phones and start texting each other.
Speaker 2: No, they have to use secure communication methods that won't,
Speaker 2: you know, compromise their location or the entire mission.
Speaker 1: So think like encrypted radios or specialized messaging apps exactly.
Speaker 2: And communication is crucial not only for relaying information, but
Speaker 2: for coordinating their actions and responding to anything unexpected that happens.
Speaker 1: So it's like the lifeline. Yeah, that connects them to
Speaker 1: the outside world precisely. Okay, So the Red team has
Speaker 1: established control, they're communicating electively, they're carrying out their mission.
Speaker 2: What happens next, Well, eventually they're going to have to
Speaker 2: exfiltrade XFRAL trade.
Speaker 1: That sounds a little dramatic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it just means leaving the target environment, okay,
Speaker 2: safely and discreetly.
Speaker 1: Right, And I'm guessing that's not as easy as just
Speaker 1: you know, walking out the front door.
Speaker 2: Not Usually, the Red Team has to very carefully plan
Speaker 2: their exit route, taking into account any potential obstacles, security patrols,
Speaker 2: surveillance systems.
Speaker 1: So it's like a it's like a strategic retreat, minimizing
Speaker 1: minimizing risk at every turn.
Speaker 2: Yes, and communication is still crucial in this phase. They
Speaker 2: have to stay in contact with their base, letting them
Speaker 2: know where they are and if there are any obstacles
Speaker 2: or any.
Speaker 1: Threats, so if something unexpected happens, they can you know,
Speaker 1: call for backup or change their plans.
Speaker 2: Right. Flexibility is essential.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's say the Red Team has managed to
Speaker 1: evade all those security measures and they've made it back
Speaker 1: to their rendezvous point. What happens next? Do they all
Speaker 1: go out for like pizza to celebrate a successful mission.
Speaker 2: Well, a celebratory pizza might come later, but first there's
Speaker 2: the debriefing process. That's where the team gathers to share
Speaker 2: their observations, you know, their insights, and any evidence they've collected.
Speaker 1: So we're talking notes, photos, videos, maybe even like physical
Speaker 1: samples of locks or security systems.
Speaker 2: Yes, all of that, and all that information is carefully
Speaker 2: documented and analyzed to identify vulnerabilities, assess how effective the
Speaker 2: current security is, and develop recommendations on how to make
Speaker 2: things better.
Speaker 1: So the expiltration isn't just about escaping, it's about bringing
Speaker 1: back that valuable intelligence that they can use to make
Speaker 1: the target environment more secure exactly.
Speaker 2: And that's the ultimate goal of physical red teaming, identifying
Speaker 2: and mitigating those weaknesses before a real attacker can exploit them.
Speaker 1: Well, I think we've explored just about every aspect of
Speaker 1: physical red teaming in this deep dive, from the planning
Speaker 1: and reconnaissance to those daring offensive strikes to these strictrategic
Speaker 1: retreat of exfiltration. It's been a wild ride.
Speaker 2: We've really delved into the mindset, the methodology, and those
Speaker 2: tactics that they use to test and strengthen security.
Speaker 1: It's clear that this line of work takes like a
Speaker 1: unique blend of technical expertise and physical ability and strategic
Speaker 1: thinking and like a good dose of creativity.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, physical red teaming is challenging, but it's vital in
Speaker 2: today's world.
Speaker 1: So as we wrap up, I want to leave our
Speaker 1: listeners with one final thought to ponder. In an age
Speaker 1: where technology is constantly evolving and security threats are becoming
Speaker 1: more sophisticated. How will physical red teaming adapt, you know,
Speaker 1: what new tools and tactics will they come up with.
Speaker 1: How will they continue to push the boundaries to ensure
Speaker 1: that our critical infrastructure and sensitive information are protected.
Speaker 2: It's a great question. The world of security never stands
Speaker 2: still no, and red teaming is going to have to
Speaker 2: evolve right along with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a reminder that security is an ongoing process.
Speaker 1: It's a constant like game cat and mouse between those
Speaker 1: who are trying to protect things and those who are
Speaker 1: trying to you know, exploit them.
Speaker 2: I agree, and understanding the principles of physical red teaming
Speaker 2: can help us all, you know, just become more aware
Speaker 2: of our own security vulnerabilities and hopefully, you know, take
Speaker 2: steps to mitigate those risks, whether it's in our homes,
Speaker 2: our workplaces, you know, yeah, even online.
Speaker 1: That's that's a really good point. Well, thank you for
Speaker 1: joining us for this deep dive into the world of
Speaker 1: physical red teaming. We hope you found it informative, thought provoking,
Speaker 1: and maybe even a little bit inspiring. Until next time,
Speaker 1: stay curious, stay vigilant, and stay secure. We're back and
Speaker 1: ready to wrap up our deep dive into physical red teaming.
Speaker 1: We've talked about like everything from the planning and recon
Speaker 1: to those you know, those crazy offensive strikes. But as
Speaker 1: we've learned, getting out can be just as hard as
Speaker 1: getting in.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, exfiltration is a final act and it really requires
Speaker 2: that same level of planning and careful execution as every
Speaker 2: other part of the operation.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about that art of like, you know, disappearing.
Speaker 1: What are some of the key things to keep in
Speaker 1: mind for really successful exultration.
Speaker 2: Well, the biggest thing is avoiding detection. The teams work
Speaker 2: so hard to stay under the radar, you know, they
Speaker 2: don't want to blow their cover at the last minute.
Speaker 1: Right, imagine making it through the whole mission, and then
Speaker 1: like tripping an alarm or getting caught on camera, you know,
Speaker 1: on your way out, What a way to ruin a
Speaker 1: perfectly good infiltration.
Speaker 2: Right. So the exit route it's usually just as carefully
Speaker 2: planned as the way in. The team, you know, they'll
Speaker 2: analyze maps, they look at security patrols, and they try
Speaker 2: to identify those like blind spots or weaknesses they can use.
Speaker 1: So I'm picturing like back alleys, service entrances, maybe even
Speaker 1: blending in with the crowd to make a quiet exit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all of those are possibilities. And they'll also think
Speaker 2: about the time of day, whether you know, anything that
Speaker 2: could affect how visible they are.
Speaker 1: It's like a strategic retreat, you know, minimizing risk every
Speaker 1: step of.
Speaker 2: The way, right, they're not just running for the hills.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And communication that's got to still be really
Speaker 1: important during this part.
Speaker 2: It is the team needs to stay in contact with
Speaker 2: their base, letting them know their location, any obstacles, any
Speaker 2: threats they might encounter, so.
Speaker 1: Something unexpected pops up, they can call for backup, adjust
Speaker 1: their plans exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that flexibility is so important.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's say, you know, they make it past
Speaker 1: all the security measures and they're back at their meeting point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what happens then do they do? They all go out
Speaker 1: for pizza to celebrate.
Speaker 2: Huh, Well, the pizza might come later. First comes the debriefing.
Speaker 2: That's where the team gets together and they share, you know,
Speaker 2: their observations, their insights, any evidence they've gathered, so.
Speaker 1: Notes, photos, videos, maybe even like physical pieces of locks
Speaker 1: or security systems they've gotten their hands.
Speaker 2: On, exactly, and all of that is carefully documented and
Speaker 2: then analyzed to you know, really figure out where the
Speaker 2: vulnerabilities are, how effective the security measures were, and what
Speaker 2: recommendations they can make for improvement.
Speaker 1: So exiltration isn't just about getting away, it's about bringing
Speaker 1: back that valuable information to make things more secure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's really the whole point of physical red teaming,
Speaker 2: finding those weak spots and fixing them before a real
Speaker 2: attacker can use them.
Speaker 1: I think we've really covered every angle of physical red
Speaker 1: teaming in this deep dive, from that super detailed planning
Speaker 1: to those you know, those intense offensive strikes, to that
Speaker 1: strategic retreat of exultration. It's it's been pretty fascinating it has.
Speaker 2: We've gone deep into the mindset, the methodology, you know,
Speaker 2: the actual tactics that these professionals use to test and
Speaker 2: strengthen security.
Speaker 1: And it's clear this line of work takes a special
Speaker 1: combination of skills, technical expertise, physical ability, strategic thinking, and
Speaker 1: a whole lot of creativity.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, physical red teaming is a challenging field, but it's
Speaker 2: incredibly important in the world today.
Speaker 1: So as we wrap up this episode, I want to
Speaker 1: leave our listeners with something to think about. In a
Speaker 1: world where technology keeps changing and those security threats becoming
Speaker 1: more and more complex. How will physical red teaming keep up.
Speaker 1: What new tools and tactics will they need to develop,
Speaker 1: How will they continue to push the boundaries to make
Speaker 1: sure that you know that our critical infrastructure and all
Speaker 1: our sensitive information stay protected.
Speaker 2: It's a great question to consider the world of security
Speaker 2: and never sit still, and red teaming has to change
Speaker 2: and adapt right along with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a constant reminder that security is an ongoing process.
Speaker 1: It's a never ending game, you know, between the people
Speaker 1: who are working so hard to protect things and those
Speaker 1: who are looking to exploit them.
Speaker 2: Right, and I think understanding the principles of physical red
Speaker 2: teaming can help all of us be more aware of
Speaker 2: those security vulnerabilities in our own lives and hopefully take
Speaker 2: those steps to minimize those risks, whether it's at home,
Speaker 2: at work, or even online.
Speaker 1: Well said, thank you for joining us for this deep
Speaker 1: dive into the world of physical red teaming. We hope
Speaker 1: you found it, you know, informative and interesting and maybe
Speaker 1: even a little bit inspiring. Until next time, stay curious,
Speaker 1: stay vis and stay secure.