Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 3: Welcome back to the occult rejects. Today we're stepping into
Speaker 3: one of the most famous, misunderstood and mysterious streams of
Speaker 3: Western ceremonial magic, the world.
Speaker 4: Of Solomonic pentacles.
Speaker 3: When people hear the name Solomon, they usually think of
Speaker 3: the biblical king, the wise ruler, the builder of the temple,
Speaker 3: the judge between two mothers, the monarch associated with wealth,
Speaker 3: divine favor, and supernatural command. But in the occult imagination,
Speaker 3: Solomon becomes something else as well. He becomes the magician king,
Speaker 3: the one who knows the names, the seals, the angels,
Speaker 3: the demons, the plan monetary powers, the sacred geometry, and
Speaker 3: the divine words by which invisible forces are ordered. Whether
Speaker 3: we are reading the old grimoires as history, mythology, theology,
Speaker 3: magical technology, or living spiritual practice, the solemon occurred sits
Speaker 3: at the crossroads of all of it, and at the
Speaker 3: center of that tradition are the pentacles, sacred diagrams, planetary talismans,
Speaker 3: symbols of divine authority, protection, attraction, healing, command, wisdom, and
Speaker 3: spiritual alignment. These are not just occult symbols in the
Speaker 3: shallow modern sense. They are layered machines of meaning. They
Speaker 3: combine Hebrew, divine names, angelic names, biblical verses, planetary forces,
Speaker 3: geometric structure, timing, prayer, consecration, and intention. They are part scripture,
Speaker 3: part sigil, part temple, part twol our guest. Today, Emery's
Speaker 3: Abner has taken on the difficult task of bringing these
Speaker 3: pentacles out of the dusty margins of Grimore Studies into
Speaker 3: a modern, living conversation. His book, Solomonic Pentacles Wisdom of
Speaker 3: Magic for the Modern Age does not simply treat the
Speaker 3: pentacles as a museum pieces or spooky diagrams from an
Speaker 3: old magical manuscript. It asks what they are, how they function,
Speaker 3: why they matter, and how a modern practitioner can build
Speaker 3: a real relationship with them without stripping away their depth,
Speaker 3: their sacredness, or their historical roots. What makes Emories especially
Speaker 3: interesting is that he is not approaching this only as
Speaker 3: a writer. He comes to this as someone who has
Speaker 3: spent his life chasing the divine through history, theology, music
Speaker 3: and art. He has a background as an educator. He
Speaker 3: works through the world of sound and sacred practice, and
Speaker 3: he seems deeply concerned with making complex magical ideas understandable
Speaker 3: without making them shallow. That matters because solomonic magic can
Speaker 3: become intimidating very quickly. The names, the alphabets, the seals,
Speaker 3: the prayers, the planetary logic, the ritual instructions, all of
Speaker 3: it can feel like a locked door. Emory's work gives
Speaker 3: people away to approach the door with respect, intelligence.
Speaker 4: And practice.
Speaker 3: Today, we're going to talk about the Key of Solomon,
Speaker 3: the Pentacles, planetary magic, psalms pathworking, talismanic construction, ethics, experimentation,
Speaker 3: and what it means to practice an old magical system
Speaker 3: in a modern world. We'll also get into Emory's own path,
Speaker 3: how music, teaching, theology, and the occult came together in
Speaker 3: his life, and why the Pentacles became important enough for
Speaker 3: him to write an entire book around them. But before
Speaker 3: we introduce the rest of the panel, I would also
Speaker 3: like to remind everybody about the website. If you're into reading,
Speaker 3: we have tons of information by multiple contributors, and we
Speaker 3: got t shirts up on the site if you're interested.
Speaker 3: Fun fact, the art is all based on the eyeball.
Speaker 3: Now let me introduce the rest of the panel and
Speaker 3: the guests.
Speaker 4: What is going on? Judith? How are you let everybody
Speaker 4: know where they can find you? Please?
Speaker 5: I am fine, Thank you for having me. It's wonderful.
Speaker 5: I look forward to this discussion with Emory's and you
Speaker 5: can find me at YouTube x and on speaker as
Speaker 5: the Loom.
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you very much for joining me. I'm very excited.
Speaker 4: And gin my man, what is going on in j
Speaker 4: how way?
Speaker 1: What's up, Cardinal? I'm really glad to be here. Obviously,
Speaker 1: people who've listened to us on the show, especially like
Speaker 1: Nick and I speak about are retired magical practices, will
Speaker 1: say they know that I fancied myself at one time
Speaker 1: from about sixteen to maybe like twenty five twenty six.
Speaker 1: I won't even use magic numbers, but I was. I'm
Speaker 1: very familiar with the pentacles of Solomon and just the
Speaker 1: greater and Lesser keys. It was a spiritual technology that
Speaker 1: I availed myself of many times. I have timed myself
Speaker 1: doing the orations and the Samic recitations, so I know,
Speaker 1: I can, you know, very autistically, so I can get
Speaker 1: it down to like a science specific like a yes,
Speaker 1: you know, in one night if I needed to do
Speaker 1: it in one night. I could easily, well not easily,
Speaker 1: but I could get it done. And so so I'm
Speaker 1: really excited for this topic. Obviously it's close to my heart.
Speaker 1: I'm obviously retired from that, but I still think it's
Speaker 1: a very viable, useful and important technique and technology for
Speaker 1: people who are just not just beginner magic, but just
Speaker 1: it's a really good it's a whole hermeneutic in and
Speaker 1: of itself, the seals. So I think it's a great
Speaker 1: way to learn correspondences, planetary intelligences, the Kabbala obviously because
Speaker 1: they are Kabala in many ways, they are kind of
Speaker 1: like the Kabala as a tree, even individually, and we'll
Speaker 1: probably get into that. But so anyways, that being said,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. You can check
Speaker 1: me out on Threshold Saints. I just dropped an episode
Speaker 1: with my co host Solar Exile and Paul Frederick from
Speaker 1: the Demonosofti podcast. It's a part two. We're talking about
Speaker 1: Zoastrianism and kind of the Black Flame cultivation. I have
Speaker 1: an episode coming out today with Herbie and the Kirk Cast,
Speaker 1: which is like a very cool zoomer. They're too cooler
Speaker 1: than me. A show, and they talk about like Asian
Speaker 1: anime culture, like Hong Kong cinema and martial arts, a
Speaker 1: little bit of Taoist cultivation and how that sort of
Speaker 1: obviously because it was on my show, it ties into metamagic,
Speaker 1: so how we can use those sort of like the
Speaker 1: gifts and the aesthetics of Asian cinema to sort of
Speaker 1: be mimetic magicians on the internet. And yeah, and so
Speaker 1: you can always check out The Gray Lodge, of course
Speaker 1: on our YouTube channel YouTube dot com, slash at the
Speaker 1: True tr Ve Gray Lodge dot com, or you can
Speaker 1: check out Threshold Saints at Threshold Saints at substock dot com,
Speaker 1: which is my main landing page, but of course also
Speaker 1: Spotify and Apple. So thank you guys so much appreciate it.
Speaker 1: And of course Judith always happy to see a fellow Matian.
Speaker 1: Uh and yeah, I'm really excited, Thank.
Speaker 3: You, thank you for making it in I knew I
Speaker 3: knew this would be something like close to your heart
Speaker 3: and you'd be interested in so I'm very glad.
Speaker 4: You can make it.
Speaker 3: And Emeryes please sir let everybody know what's up with you.
Speaker 3: Anything you would like to promote and stuff that I'm
Speaker 3: like have left out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for the introduction, and it's cool to be
Speaker 2: here with you all. My I think the only thing
Speaker 2: I want to mention is that I've also got an
Speaker 2: Etsy storer called the Acoustic Alchemists, And on the Acoustic Alchemist,
Speaker 2: I make a whole bunch of altar plates for different occasions,
Speaker 2: a lot of them utilizing Salamonic principles, and and the
Speaker 2: pinnacles themselves. I make pinnacles as well, including you know,
Speaker 2: in in my book, I've got a couple of pinnacles
Speaker 2: that I think that the Hebrew on them, or the
Speaker 2: sometimes the Malechem on them was like not right. And
Speaker 2: so I've got a couple of corrected pentacles as well.
Speaker 2: And then I'll let you know that coming down the pipe.
Speaker 2: We've got two books that are on the way. One
Speaker 2: is we just finished the last editing process, so it's
Speaker 2: in like layout. This is the a book for using
Speaker 2: the seventy two angels of the Shamha Maparash and the
Speaker 2: seventy two demons of the Goisha as spiritual pairs and
Speaker 2: using them as teams instead of an opposition. And there's
Speaker 2: a quite an extensive primer to Kabbala in that, so
Speaker 2: I'm really excited for that one to come out. And
Speaker 2: then I'm also working with a couple of other authors
Speaker 2: to do a kind of a magical psalter where we
Speaker 2: go through all one hundred and fifty psalms and we
Speaker 2: kind of talk about each psalm from our particular perspective
Speaker 2: and then write a spell or ritual to go along
Speaker 2: with that psalm. And so it'll be me tackling the
Speaker 2: ceremonial perspective. We have a a Hudoo practitioner and an
Speaker 2: ozark Roots practitioner, So I think there's it's going to
Speaker 2: be cool. There's gon be some diverse perspectives. You know,
Speaker 2: we're looking at the same palm and we don't we
Speaker 2: don't always agree, but we're like learning from each other,
Speaker 2: and so I think, you.
Speaker 4: Know, I think that is great.
Speaker 1: I love that idea too. Sorry, Nick, you just want
Speaker 1: to say like that, I always have had like obviously
Speaker 1: I'm very into cabal nick nossises, but I'm very into
Speaker 1: kabala I emories, and so for me, I always have
Speaker 1: had color angelic ritual associations with each psalm, and I'm
Speaker 1: very as I said, I'm a little autistic about it.
Speaker 1: So I very tend to be fixed in those ideas.
Speaker 1: But I think this is like really brilliant, and I'm
Speaker 1: glad that somebody is like tackling something like that because
Speaker 1: I think some the recitation of psalms is like also
Speaker 1: a perfect kabalistic hermeneutic. It's the way to learn. You
Speaker 1: can learn all of Kabala through the psalms. So I'm
Speaker 1: I think it's way under utilized. I think people have
Speaker 1: no idea what is like sitting in there, you know,
Speaker 1: grandparents' bedroom in terms of a spell or magical technology.
Speaker 1: So I'm really excited to get that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too, it's going to be it's gonna be
Speaker 2: a thick boy too. I think, gosh, the manuscript right
Speaker 2: now is like sixteen pages. It's crazy.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: One thing I did actually want to mention before we
Speaker 3: go any further. I'm going to ask about you first
Speaker 3: before we get into the book, but I did want
Speaker 3: to mention, like your book like this is a this
Speaker 3: is a fucking book, like it's it's it's this isn't
Speaker 3: like one of those small ones you might like pick
Speaker 3: up in this store, like this is a I was
Speaker 3: impressed when I got this book.
Speaker 4: I'll be honest, I was impressed.
Speaker 3: So you're getting your money's worth in paper, believe me.
Speaker 3: But before we get into the book, I do want
Speaker 3: to ask, like, what was it that got you into this?
Speaker 3: And like when was it that You're like, this isn't
Speaker 3: just a I don't know, this is this is going
Speaker 3: to be your life.
Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying. When did that happen? How
Speaker 4: did that happen?
Speaker 2: Well, so, yeah, those things kind of happened separately. You know,
Speaker 2: I've always kind of been interested in in the occult as.
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people here are you know,
Speaker 2: kind of lifers in that way. But I grew up
Speaker 2: Catholic and I, you know, kind of stuck with that
Speaker 2: path for a long time. I ended up kind of
Speaker 2: breaking with that after I had an experience where I was,
Speaker 2: you know, I was living on a monastery for a
Speaker 2: while and just couldn't it wasn't it wasn't my bag.
Speaker 2: Plus I met a girl, so that was kind of
Speaker 2: the end of that and we've been and we've been
Speaker 2: married for seventeen years. So it worked out good. But then,
Speaker 2: you know, when I decided to kind of make it,
Speaker 2: uh my focus and my calling was really really during COVID,
Speaker 2: because before COVID, I had I had a nonprofit called
Speaker 2: Discover Music and we went around to mostly middle schools,
Speaker 2: some high schools and we would teach kids how to
Speaker 2: do songwriting as a way to kind of manage their
Speaker 2: emotional selves. And it was a cool program. We you know,
Speaker 2: we had. We had a good run about ten years
Speaker 2: and then just trying to trying to navigate teaching through
Speaker 2: COVID was too difficult and funding got all lacky and uh,
Speaker 2: and so it ended up kind of killing the program.
Speaker 2: So I kind of looked around and said, like, what
Speaker 2: am I going to do now? And the message I
Speaker 2: got was, Hey, I think it's time to it's time
Speaker 2: to double down on the occult stuff and dig dig
Speaker 2: real deep into that. And so so I did that
Speaker 2: and didn't look bast that's nice.
Speaker 4: Nice.
Speaker 3: Did any of you guys, Judith are Jenda, did you
Speaker 3: want to ask anything before I go through that?
Speaker 1: Well, I will make them. I'll mention something that has
Speaker 1: come up many times Snack on the show is that
Speaker 1: a lot of occultists actually have, including myself obviously, have
Speaker 1: Catholic backgrounds, and so I'm not saying to be Catholic
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not a Catholic. I'm not a Christian myself.
Speaker 1: I'm not a pagan either, But you know, secret third
Speaker 1: thing tontrac writist. So but you know, uh, I think
Speaker 1: that there is a deep Rosicrucian hermaneutic. There's a deep
Speaker 1: esoteric element to Catholicism. And I think that while it's
Speaker 1: not necessarily contained in how Catholicism is understood and practiced
Speaker 1: by like the outer or even maybe inner or even
Speaker 1: maybe secret congregations, whatever that looks like, I think that
Speaker 1: it's enough to sort of if people are interested in
Speaker 1: magic and they're like raised in that environment, they're going
Speaker 1: to have a certain defined set of symbols that is
Speaker 1: going to actually help them and sort of carry them through,
Speaker 1: especially like if you're learning like a grippa like I
Speaker 1: used to be a big a grip of person. And
Speaker 1: obviously he says go to church like five days a week.
Speaker 1: There was a point where I was going to church
Speaker 1: five days a week so I could consecrate the seals,
Speaker 1: like that's just what you have to do. And I
Speaker 1: just think that while I don't do that now, I
Speaker 1: can understand how those things definitely carried with me and
Speaker 1: carried me through understanding like more esoteric icography. So if
Speaker 1: Emoris wants to comment on that, I'd love to hear
Speaker 1: his perspective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a definite Catholic to
Speaker 2: occult pipeline, if you Well, even when I was at
Speaker 2: Sacred Space conference, we were kind of, you know, talking
Speaker 2: about our backgrounds and things, and I got to say,
Speaker 2: like seventy five percent of the people I talked to
Speaker 2: were all ex Catholics, So there's there's something in the
Speaker 2: sauce there. And you know, ah, at first, my first
Speaker 2: reaction was, yeah, there's a lot of magic in Catholicism.
Speaker 2: It kind of primes you for that, which is why
Speaker 2: it feels so familiar to come to occultism. And then
Speaker 2: at that conference, somebody planted out there like, well, that's
Speaker 2: the right idea, but it's it's reversed because they took
Speaker 2: all their rituals from us, and just because they're more
Speaker 2: popular now, you know, we kind of give them primacy.
Speaker 2: But but it feels familiar because it came from different
Speaker 2: mystery cults to begin with. And uh, and that that
Speaker 2: tied up a neat little bow for me.
Speaker 1: There's absolutely a lot of methriism, like undeniable undeniable amount
Speaker 1: of methraism and sort of what I call I think
Speaker 1: more an Aonic terms memory. So for me, like falsism
Speaker 1: is very like an of the Sun. But they've amalgamated
Speaker 1: a of the father things. You have a rising and
Speaker 1: obviously a rising and falling God, so that's not really
Speaker 1: an of the son. That's much more a of the Father.
Speaker 1: Then you have like the Mother who's both a virgin
Speaker 1: and a mother. That is not how I would necessarily
Speaker 1: think of it. But they've kind of unified this into
Speaker 1: this Platonic trilogy or Platonic trinity, so they've kind of
Speaker 1: mixed the ans together, mixed the stories together. But I
Speaker 1: agree that there is a lot of sort of Platonic
Speaker 1: and neo Platonic and Pythagora, Pythagorian and many other you know,
Speaker 1: Kabbala has been revitalized within the church. Nick has covered
Speaker 1: this quite a few times, like you have these saints
Speaker 1: mystics that reintroduce different kinds of Kabala, especially Pico. I mean,
Speaker 1: we wouldn't even really have a you know, the Golden
Speaker 1: Dawn and like for all the other knowledge purportedly of
Speaker 1: the of the tree. They would like nobody would really
Speaker 1: understand ball in modernity as a non Jew if you
Speaker 1: didn't have Pico. I mean, it's it's like that fundamental,
Speaker 1: like for even for me, it's like that fundamental. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I definitely think that it's definitely in Cathalism. Now what
Speaker 1: I take issue with and say, is it coming from
Speaker 1: those places or is it kind of a syncretism which
Speaker 1: is what catholic is. Remember, it's like universalism. So there
Speaker 1: is an idea that maybe it is the Pax Romana
Speaker 1: religion is Catholicism, but they present it in this particular way.
Speaker 1: But maybe that's just a framing issue. Anyways, I'm not
Speaker 1: taking issue with what you said, memories. I just would
Speaker 1: maybe positive a different way. But thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, one thing I did when I ask unless you
Speaker 3: had anything to say back when it came because I
Speaker 3: know you were a music teacher for a bit, do
Speaker 3: you think that helped U with maybe the way you
Speaker 3: like did this book I helped like try to teach
Speaker 3: this stuff to people.
Speaker 4: Did it help it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I think it did. I mean the you know,
Speaker 2: there there is a there is an art to teaching
Speaker 2: there's an art to like taking a complex concept and
Speaker 2: then breaking it down into its constituent parts and making
Speaker 2: it digestible so that other people can understand it. And
Speaker 2: also you know, using things like just anecdotes, figuring out
Speaker 2: different metaphors that might resonate with different people, and trying
Speaker 2: to teach a concept from a couple of different angles,
Speaker 2: because everybody learns differently. I think learning how to teach
Speaker 2: definitely is a good skill to have if you're going
Speaker 2: to try and do instructional writing.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's kind of even interesting, like what you
Speaker 3: said someone let me see, Oh okay, that was from him,
Speaker 3: all right, yeah, kind of like what you were saying
Speaker 3: before To me, I feel like this is a topic
Speaker 3: that is like very intricate and detailed there can be
Speaker 3: And I was wondering like if like the fact that
Speaker 3: of you teaching before helped you kind of like find
Speaker 3: different ways of trying to explain it very easy for people.
Speaker 3: It's probably exactly what you said, So thanks, uh your
Speaker 3: work under the name the Acoustic Alchemist. The title itself
Speaker 3: feels like, you know, kind of like a bridge between
Speaker 3: sound and transformation and spiritual practice. What does an acoustic
Speaker 3: alchemy mean to you.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just kind of a blend of the
Speaker 2: two things that I really like to do. So when
Speaker 2: I when I think about magical practice, the way that
Speaker 2: I usually use it most is more in like a
Speaker 2: more in like a mystic quality. I know that that
Speaker 2: some people are maybe more concerned with, you know, tangible
Speaker 2: results today, and some people are more concerned with evolving
Speaker 2: the soul. And I think I'm kind of more on
Speaker 2: that ladder, uh, that ladder place. And then the acoustic
Speaker 2: part is my other job is I'm a folk musician
Speaker 2: and have been for about twenty five years. I gig
Speaker 2: regularly and pretty much always on acoustic instruments. It's kind
Speaker 2: of my kind of a thing.
Speaker 4: Than did anybody have anything.
Speaker 2: I didn't?
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I do have a question because you said
Speaker 5: you have the background in Catholicism. Was your motivation? Did
Speaker 5: you actually were you raised within the church that actually
Speaker 5: sang the masses and sang the songs that was a
Speaker 5: motivator behind you.
Speaker 2: No, but I did go to a Benedictine college and
Speaker 2: so they had they had service a couple of times
Speaker 2: a day where they do the the traditional chanting, and
Speaker 2: I was part of the music ministry there, so so
Speaker 2: there is you know, there is like a deep connection
Speaker 2: there between kind of music and sacredness and and all
Speaker 2: of that kind of kind of blends together.
Speaker 5: To me, that's an aspect that most people tend to
Speaker 5: forget about. Was part of the mass originally, and the
Speaker 5: ceremony part of everything. And even though we are whether
Speaker 5: we were tired or not, some ceremonial magicians, we tend
Speaker 5: to forget the vocalization, the vibrations that comes along with
Speaker 5: that practice. So I found that very unique.
Speaker 2: Yea, in the abbey church where they would do the chanting,
Speaker 2: it's this huge vaulted thing and it's it was made
Speaker 2: in like this kind of brutalist architecture style, so there's
Speaker 2: it's unique in the fact that there are no internal
Speaker 2: columns supporting the roof, and so it's this enormous concrete
Speaker 2: chamber and it has a like a six second reverb,
Speaker 2: so when you sing something, it starts bouncing off all
Speaker 2: the walls. And when you get all these monks chanting
Speaker 2: these things, you realize that the notes, the way that
Speaker 2: the chants are constructed, the notes are meant to harmonize
Speaker 2: with each other as they Bounce off the wall.
Speaker 4: I covered like a week or two ago.
Speaker 3: I had an episode that drops I think one Stone
Speaker 3: sing and I literally covered how there was.
Speaker 4: I forgot exactly which place it was.
Speaker 3: The reverberation was I think up to a like eleven seconds,
Speaker 3: and like it was actually like they do believe it
Speaker 3: was done so then like you're actually getting a completely
Speaker 3: different sound mixed with like everything bouncing around and the
Speaker 3: the voice. It was done on perpet and I was like, Yo,
Speaker 3: that ship is fucking crazy. It's pretty wild that they
Speaker 3: knew to do that stuff back then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were, they were more clever, and we gave
Speaker 2: him credit.
Speaker 3: For Yeah, they was like con cave like they were
Speaker 3: showing how like maybe sometimes like things that looks like
Speaker 3: it's cut in will do different remeberation than if it
Speaker 3: looked like it was like coming out it was.
Speaker 4: I was like, oh wow, like damn, I've.
Speaker 2: Actually got a coolie. I want to show you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, g.
Speaker 1: Oh, I want I'll say this really quick while he's
Speaker 1: doing the house orry he's coming oh wait, oh wait.
Speaker 2: At a garage sale.
Speaker 4: You got at a garage sale?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I got it for twenty bucks. And then
Speaker 2: what I what? I realized when I came back home.
Speaker 2: I took a closer look at it, and I was like,
Speaker 2: you know, I think that's actually vellum. I think that's
Speaker 2: real vellum. And then as I started looking at what
Speaker 2: was actually on the page, I realized that it's not
Speaker 2: a traditional music staff, right, it's got five lines, but
Speaker 2: this is a unique like it's not a trouble clef
Speaker 2: or a bass cleft, right, it just denotes that this
Speaker 2: is the middle pitch, whatever the middle pitches. And so
Speaker 2: this is a system of musical writing that predates traditional notation,
Speaker 2: back when they were just trying to figure out how
Speaker 2: to how to do musical notation. So this comes from
Speaker 2: like fourteenth century Spanish monastery, and this was part of
Speaker 2: a giant book that the monks would read out of.
Speaker 2: They'd be in these semi circular kind of risers, and
Speaker 2: they'd have one big songbook in the middle, and the
Speaker 2: print had to be big enough so they could all
Speaker 2: read it. And so that's that's what this is. This
Speaker 2: is like a living piece of that history. And and
Speaker 2: somebody just giving it away for twenty bucks.
Speaker 4: That's awesome, fun nice talk about the steal.
Speaker 2: I thought it was pretty it's a pretty cool like
Speaker 2: connection to you know, to that that good of musical history,
Speaker 2: I thought, And there's so much there's so much energy
Speaker 2: in those songs because people have been singing those chants
Speaker 2: for you know, at least a thousand years, and there
Speaker 2: has to be some sort of agragoric energy around that
Speaker 2: kind of devotion.
Speaker 3: Right, did you have anything you wanted to say?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just thought it was interesting that Judith picked
Speaker 1: up on the recitation of psalms and like their importance
Speaker 1: in the early Mass, because well, this is just my
Speaker 1: experience and this might be wrong, but I you know,
Speaker 1: I do come from a what was it at least
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, primarily Catholic country, and so my experiences
Speaker 1: are definitely mediated by like French Catholicism and how that works.
Speaker 1: But we were very much encouraged to never read the
Speaker 1: psalms out loud. It was considered to be like definitely
Speaker 1: not forbidden, but it was understood to be a certain
Speaker 1: kind of spiritual technology and a potency and to have
Speaker 1: a formulation of Kabbala in it. And so they were
Speaker 1: always like when you know, they were like, you don't
Speaker 1: read them out loud, but you can, you know, you
Speaker 1: can read it the book, but you just can't recite them.
Speaker 1: And so I do think it's interesting though, because I
Speaker 1: think for me, at least when I was starting to
Speaker 1: get into Kabala and like the Pentacle to Solomon, I
Speaker 1: was definitely drawn to plomic magic because it felt particularly transgressive.
Speaker 1: I'm just being honest, because it felt like they said no,
Speaker 1: so I was like, that means.
Speaker 3: Yes, least to keeping it room. You know, that's something
Speaker 3: that I even, I guess kind of you mentioned something,
Speaker 3: Jim that you kind of made me think about a
Speaker 3: question I just wanted to ask him before, you know,
Speaker 3: with the Psalms and everything too, with Judith, with like
Speaker 3: all this stuff like the biblical names Psalms and like
Speaker 3: and you know, all these angels and stuff. Was it
Speaker 3: easy for you too, because like I know, some magicians
Speaker 3: or some like witchcraft of people into you know, ceremonial
Speaker 3: magic or whatever, they're almost kind of coming in this
Speaker 3: because they're like, fuck the church, you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 3: So they don't even want to kind of even rely
Speaker 3: on anything. Well, which is it gets really interesting because
Speaker 3: then it's like if you're if you're acknowledging demons, so
Speaker 3: you're really out of the Abrahamic ritual. But I'm not
Speaker 3: even gonna go that way, go there.
Speaker 4: But if.
Speaker 3: So, was it easy for you to kind of accept
Speaker 3: like all that stuff. Was that easy for you to
Speaker 3: adopt as as a magician or was there a little
Speaker 3: bit of like kind of pushback to accept that as well?
Speaker 2: Well, I'd say, like the the way my personal theology
Speaker 2: has kind of wended. I mean, when when I really
Speaker 2: came into doing occult work, I was kind of in
Speaker 2: a place where I was more or less agnostic, and
Speaker 2: mostly because I couldn't reconcile a loving God with suffering
Speaker 2: in the world. And I think that's, you know, a
Speaker 2: problem a lot of people have. And then when I
Speaker 2: you know, when I came to try and study kind
Speaker 2: of deeper occultism and I started reading some of the
Speaker 2: bigger texts, you know, I realized how much theology is
Speaker 2: actually kind of embedded in occultism. And it felt like
Speaker 2: a soft landing place because it was familiar. And I realized, like,
Speaker 2: especially after doing some magic and see being like seeing
Speaker 2: that basically miracles are possible. Still I had to revise
Speaker 2: where my head was at and basically become a theist again.
Speaker 2: But this time with a different with a different focus,
Speaker 2: and and like, being a theist in occultism is a
Speaker 2: totally different experience than being a theist in an exoteric religion.
Speaker 2: And so I kind of decided, Hey, this is a
Speaker 2: kind of a have your cake and eat it too
Speaker 2: moment where I can I can have a faith, and
Speaker 2: I can look at occultism as like a really beautiful
Speaker 2: expression of that faith. It doesn't have to be something
Speaker 2: that's at odds with what I believe at all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can kind of like identify that myself. After
Speaker 3: I kind of like started, you know, getting heavy into
Speaker 3: magic and whatever, I had my own exp experiences, I
Speaker 3: could say that, like, I do have more of a
Speaker 3: reverence and more of a I guess or see more
Speaker 3: beauty within Catholicism and Christianity even too.
Speaker 4: So I can see that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So my dad is also kind of he's deeply Catholic,
Speaker 2: and I didn't know if he would read my book
Speaker 2: at all when it came out. And he came up
Speaker 2: for holiday one time and he's like, yeah, let's go
Speaker 2: out into the shot. I want to talk to you
Speaker 2: about something. And I thought, yep, here it comes, and
Speaker 2: he goes you know, I read your book, and I
Speaker 2: got to say, I agree with most of what you're saying.
Speaker 2: It makes sense to me. He's like it, I didn't
Speaker 2: think it would, but it actually a lot of it
Speaker 2: fits with what I already believed. And he's like, I
Speaker 2: think we're a lot closer on this stuff than you
Speaker 2: think we are, which you know, and we proceeded to
Speaker 2: have a longer conversation about it. But I thought that
Speaker 2: was a very cool of him, and and be it
Speaker 2: made me realize, like, yeah, there probably is a lot
Speaker 2: of overlap between you know, Catholic mysticism and ecultism and
Speaker 2: and and why wouldn't there be?
Speaker 1: I agree, yeah, exactly, why wouldn't there be. There's so
Speaker 1: much overlap between people who are magicians and who were Catholic,
Speaker 1: especially at one point, so there has to be. And
Speaker 1: I think, like, I'm not making a case for like
Speaker 1: bas Catholicism or anything like that, but I do think
Speaker 1: that it does a little bit get an unfair wrap
Speaker 1: among certain people because they grew up in a very
Speaker 1: Evangelical and or Protestant background and then they look at
Speaker 1: Catholicism and say, oh, it's Christianity. So I understand what
Speaker 1: it actually is. But actually that's not really true. And
Speaker 1: I will say like, although my mom isn't my particularly
Speaker 1: I was esoteric minded parent, she definitely is the most
Speaker 1: open minded in terms of like what phenomena are externally,
Speaker 1: Like everything to her is God. But it's like, well,
Speaker 1: they can be a ghost, it can be a spirit,
Speaker 1: can be you know, a demon. It's like she's much
Speaker 1: more nuanced and like her approach to the world than
Speaker 1: I think a lot of other people are. It's less
Speaker 1: manichy and than a lot of other Christian sects, So
Speaker 1: props to them for that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I always thought of like, even.
Speaker 3: Just my experience, even when I was in the Oto,
Speaker 3: I used to kind of find it funny, like, you know, obviously,
Speaker 3: like I said before, some people I think get into
Speaker 3: this rebel against the church and uh oh yeah, fuck
Speaker 3: Catholicism and this and that, and it's like, did you
Speaker 3: realize you're going to a gnastic mess done by the
Speaker 3: Gnostic Catholic Church, right, like Catholic Like do you know
Speaker 3: the you know, it was based off of Russian Orthodox
Speaker 3: like Catholicism. Kind of funny, but yeah, I think it's
Speaker 3: all over the place, especially in a lot of orders.
Speaker 3: I even think that stuff is still embedded in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And and there's also I mean, if you're doing
Speaker 2: a service and it's you know, to uh, you know,
Speaker 2: any kind of devotion to a deity, there's there's kind
Speaker 2: of only so many ways you can do it.
Speaker 4: I like that.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, we've all got altars, we've all got chalices
Speaker 2: full of ship, We've all got stuff to bless, we've
Speaker 2: all got you know, robes to wear, and deities to
Speaker 2: pray to and songs to sing, and you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're beings of limited means. How much like how much
Speaker 2: more creative ship can you come up with?
Speaker 4: Especially nowadays?
Speaker 2: Oh, I do.
Speaker 5: Want to inquire you're feeling when you realize that discussion
Speaker 5: between you and your father was a bridge between the
Speaker 5: perceived older generation of Catholics to doing the Catholic Christian mysticism.
Speaker 5: Because technically that discussion, right there was a bridge that
Speaker 5: most people didn't think was possible. Like Nick said, most
Speaker 5: people who got into a cult was a revolt against it.
Speaker 5: How was your feeling on that?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I think my feeling was just
Speaker 2: to give him a big hug. But but yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean it intellectually and emotionally it felt right like one
Speaker 2: of the things. One of the things about kind of
Speaker 2: having a Catholic upbringing that I still value and I'm
Speaker 2: coming to value more and more is uh So I
Speaker 2: went to Sunday School during the Jubilee years, and that's
Speaker 2: when they were really big into teaching social justice and
Speaker 2: Sunday School. And this is back when the Catholic Church was,
Speaker 2: like Pope John Paul the Second was really kind of
Speaker 2: taken in a liberal direction, and so we were told
Speaker 2: every Wednesday, like, your job is to feed the poor
Speaker 2: and to stand up for the oppressed and to you know,
Speaker 2: give people clothing that need it, and visit the prisoners
Speaker 2: and all of these things that eventually formed like a
Speaker 2: bedrock of my morality and ethics. And then when I
Speaker 2: grew up, I'm like, if all of that's true, why
Speaker 2: aren't you doing those things? And because the church had
Speaker 2: turned a corner at that point. And and what's what's
Speaker 2: interesting is I look at the occult community and I
Speaker 2: see people in the occult community doing those things, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, ah, there's where the you know, there's where
Speaker 2: the spiritual rubber meets the road. And so yeah, I
Speaker 2: think they're like, Catholicism has a lot of good things
Speaker 2: about it, but I think it's it's problem is that
Speaker 2: it it's not embracing the good things right now. And
Speaker 2: and that's almost like when you're when you're when you
Speaker 2: deny yourself the ability to have your spirituality guide your
Speaker 2: moral and ethical decision making, a lot of that really
Speaker 2: good mystery is taken away and it becomes like a
Speaker 2: transactional faith that's that's dictated by what's in books and
Speaker 2: the Catechism and the Bible. And and you miss the
Speaker 2: living word, you miss the part that brings us all together,
Speaker 2: the part that says we're all one living under this godhead,
Speaker 2: like the beauty and the mystery get and uh. And
Speaker 2: I think that's a mistake.
Speaker 3: One thing I did want to ask you was we
Speaker 3: maybe started like kind of heading into the book a
Speaker 3: little bit.
Speaker 4: I don't know if this is the case.
Speaker 3: Was there maybe like one solid like certain pentacle that
Speaker 3: like stood out to you, that grabbed you and got
Speaker 3: you into this.
Speaker 4: Hmm, this is this overall?
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah? I think the I think the fourth
Speaker 2: pinnacle of Mercury is the one that that was the
Speaker 2: first one that I saw and I was like, ooh,
Speaker 2: that that's a sexy beast. But so that's that's the
Speaker 2: one that it's for knowledge, And the way that it
Speaker 2: works is kind of like a spiritual search engine where
Speaker 2: you put your question out to these spirits called the
Speaker 2: alatory and their job is to go find the information
Speaker 2: and bring it back to you and uh and it works.
Speaker 2: It works like a charm and once, you know, once
Speaker 2: I tried it, I was like, oh, damn, yeah, this
Speaker 2: is gonna be one of my favorites I think from
Speaker 2: now on. But really, you know, I I love the
Speaker 2: pinnacles because first of all, they're they're pretty right, they're
Speaker 2: well designed, they make sense, they're functional. It's a really
Speaker 2: you need blending of art and mysticism and history and
Speaker 2: culture where you see all these different opinions from people
Speaker 2: throughout history and they're they're they're all kind of informing
Speaker 2: each other. So there's like like religious pluralism is baked
Speaker 2: into them, which I think is really cool. And they
Speaker 2: also work kind of like kind of like training wheels
Speaker 2: for magic in a way where like all the work's
Speaker 2: more or less been done for you and you can, oh,
Speaker 2: I need a pentacle for healing Okay, Well, it's got
Speaker 2: the angels on there already, it's got the shapes, it's
Speaker 2: got everything I need. It's it's boom. Somebody's already done
Speaker 2: my homework. And so I think that makes them a
Speaker 2: really great way to kind of get into doing some
Speaker 2: of this deeper magic.
Speaker 3: That's a good point that you did point out that,
Speaker 3: even from my own experience, yet, it is nice to
Speaker 3: kind of have like a completed talisman then actually sitting
Speaker 3: there and trying to think of like how am I
Speaker 3: going to design my own like that can be really detailed.
Speaker 3: It is nice to have kind of like a template
Speaker 3: just the workolf of that you know what it's used to.
Speaker 4: It's a good point. Yeah, did anybody have any questions?
Speaker 1: Well, I love that that he brought up that Pentacle
Speaker 1: of Mercury, the fourth Pentacle. I used to This is
Speaker 1: a very chaos magic thing. But I used to amend
Speaker 1: the orations on the back when I wouldn't, like inscribe them,
Speaker 1: which you're not supposed to do. So don't do that.
Speaker 1: If anyone's listening that, don't do that. But I used
Speaker 1: to do that, and so I remember what I changed
Speaker 1: that one too, But I won't recite it on air,
Speaker 1: but it is it's I like that that pentacle as well,
Speaker 1: and especially for students, I think that you could actually
Speaker 1: get a lot of use out of it, like putting
Speaker 1: it in your textbooks, like in the people I know,
Speaker 1: like in the old time, they would hide it in
Speaker 1: like the first page of the or the first binder
Speaker 1: of the Bible, like when you open the cover, you
Speaker 1: can like sort of cut the binding just a little
Speaker 1: bit and then sort of slide in a pentacle. That's
Speaker 1: a really good one because that obviously grants all the
Speaker 1: knowledge and intelligences of mer Gray, so you can learn everything.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I agree, and I agree Nick that it's
Speaker 1: a really good technology just for it's like there, it's prepared,
Speaker 1: it has plants associated with it. As plants associated with it,
Speaker 1: you have all the correspondences there. You don't even really
Speaker 1: need like a separate as long as you have a grip.
Speaker 1: But you can pretty much figure out like two to
Speaker 1: three things to consecrate that pentacle, even using a paper.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how Emories feels about that, but I
Speaker 1: know sometimes like you can get okay, good, awesome, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're saying page. I appreciate you Thank you very much, Emory.
Speaker 1: I feel acknowledged. But yeah, you can be like a
Speaker 1: Botanica bro and definitely go and get some of those.
Speaker 1: They're not correct, and I agree with that they're not.
Speaker 1: You know, the Hebrews a little weird, and sometimes the
Speaker 1: angelic signatures are weird, but you can make something work
Speaker 1: out of it if you're really you know, if you're motivated.
Speaker 1: I think that they're really good primer mm hmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it also gives you an introduction into, you know,
Speaker 2: these divine names, and like, the divine names are really
Speaker 2: the core of how like how Cabala my seat works.
Speaker 2: So getting a good handle on those and getting a
Speaker 2: good handle on the angle names is kind of fundamental
Speaker 2: knowledge and you can get that with the pinnacles.
Speaker 3: One thing I didn't want to ask, and then I'm
Speaker 3: gonna actually really start getting into the book. What was
Speaker 3: it like, what was your practice or what was uh
Speaker 3: what was I guess, your daily life or your experience
Speaker 3: with these pentacles. I guess kind of like a little
Speaker 3: bit of a background of what you were doing with
Speaker 3: them before you started writing the book.
Speaker 2: I was mostly using them to figure out stuff with
Speaker 2: my career, and I'll give I'll give you one story
Speaker 2: that that kind of highlights. So I was working with
Speaker 2: Pinnacles and a couple of different angel demon pairs and
Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly which ones at the moment, but
Speaker 2: I was kind of asking for a different path in
Speaker 2: life and and how to make an occult business work,
Speaker 2: like what does that even look like? And I got
Speaker 2: invited to go play a show. And at the show,
Speaker 2: I met a guy, and this guy invited me up
Speaker 2: to his farm like two hours north and while there,
Speaker 2: he said, oh, yeah, well, actually, what I've been doing
Speaker 2: most of my life is working on C and C,
Speaker 2: which is like computer controlled milling and engraving. And I
Speaker 2: had never heard of it. And he showed me this
Speaker 2: barn full of machines and uh, and he goes, tell
Speaker 2: you what, man, I will give you a couple of
Speaker 2: machines to practice on and learn this, and we'll do
Speaker 2: it in exchange for maybe my wife can come down
Speaker 2: to your studio and sing a few tracks. I think
Speaker 2: she'd really liked that. And I was like, yeah, all right.
Speaker 2: So this guy supported me learning C and C, got
Speaker 2: me all the software, got me all of all this
Speaker 2: stuff set up. And now that C and c Like
Speaker 2: I've got four or five machines in my own little
Speaker 2: workshop here and that's that's what I do. But I
Speaker 2: you know, I asked for a new career, a new pathway,
Speaker 2: and the spirits literally just put it in my lap
Speaker 2: and gave it to me for free and said we're
Speaker 2: just asking you to put in the time and that
Speaker 2: that was one of those moments from like, so that's
Speaker 2: how magic works.
Speaker 4: Okay, I like that a lot.
Speaker 3: How you even mentioned like you got to put in
Speaker 3: the time, Like, yeah, it was, it was put in
Speaker 3: your lap. But if you didn't probably spend the time
Speaker 3: to learn how to use that shit, what was it
Speaker 3: going to do for you? You know what I'm saying. So, yeah, nothing,
Speaker 3: you still had to put something into it.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2: Because you're part of the team right when you ask,
Speaker 2: when you ask spirits to help do stuff for you.
Speaker 2: There's stuff they can do because they're incorporeal and not
Speaker 2: necessarily time bound. They've got some advantages over us, but
Speaker 2: they don't have bodies. We have advantages over them in
Speaker 2: some ways, and there's things that we need to do
Speaker 2: that they can't do. And so it's yeah, we've all
Speaker 2: got responsibilities and we're all part of the team.
Speaker 4: Love it.
Speaker 3: Does anybody have any questions or anything they want to add?
Speaker 3: All right, so hemry What was it that made you
Speaker 3: think we need another book on Salomonic pentacles? What's different about?
Speaker 3: What do you think is different about yours that you
Speaker 3: wanted to bring to the table.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 2: I decided to focus on this for a book mostly
Speaker 2: because in a lot of the online forums that I
Speaker 2: was a part of, there was just so much misinformation
Speaker 2: and I was I was tired of fielding the same
Speaker 2: ten questions over and over and over. I'm like, I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna write a book about it, and let's just
Speaker 2: you know, set it straight. So that, yeah, that definitely
Speaker 2: played a part, trying to think you know that that
Speaker 2: really was like the biggest motivator. Once I got into
Speaker 2: the book, though, I realized that all the stuff I
Speaker 2: was reading, all the preparatory material, was really dense. I
Speaker 2: mean it was, well, I should say it went I
Speaker 2: want to be there two ways. Either it was like
Speaker 2: a catalog of things that are already publicly available and
Speaker 2: it's was just fluff, or it was super dense academic
Speaker 2: research that's really meant for other occult academics, and it's
Speaker 2: great information, but the amount of effort it takes to
Speaker 2: deconstruct that information is more than most people want to
Speaker 2: put in. So I'm like, basically, how do I how
Speaker 2: do I make a shallow end of the pool and
Speaker 2: and give people a way to like get into it
Speaker 2: slowly and when they want to take a deep dive,
Speaker 2: go read some Skinner, go read some ranking. You know,
Speaker 2: those resources are out there, but it is it is
Speaker 2: daunting if that's your first foray into it. So I'm
Speaker 2: trying to just kind of write something that bridges the gap.
Speaker 1: I love that you said that. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Memories for that. That was awesome. That was a great
Speaker 1: answer to rectify, Like that's what even Steven Skinner and
Speaker 1: like we like Nick well, I didn't enter him, only
Speaker 1: Nick obviously invited him on the show and invited me on.
Speaker 1: And then so I was able to speak to David
Speaker 1: Rankin in which and I was kind of like nervous,
Speaker 1: like let's just say that, but he was honestly one
Speaker 1: of the nicest, most well read, smartest, and also the
Speaker 1: most open minded in terms of like I asked him
Speaker 1: a relatively hard question about how to reconcile the outer
Speaker 1: three planets with the Kabalistic Tree, with also the Joe
Speaker 1: Tish understanding of the two shadow planets Rahu Katu. Maybe
Speaker 1: you apply them to Uranus and Neptune, like that's how
Speaker 1: I think of it. And he was like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: love that idea, and he was like, it was it
Speaker 1: was not like speaking to people who come from a
Speaker 1: rigid system. But I agree with you that those books
Speaker 1: that he did with Steven Skinner are insane. It's like
Speaker 1: very daunting. I'm so glad that someone has stepped up
Speaker 1: like you and to like really do it, because there's
Speaker 1: so much misunderstanding about the seals, the pentacles and what
Speaker 1: they actually can do and what they actually are. And
Speaker 1: I think if people look at them and they say, okay,
Speaker 1: so these are part of like maybe it's a little
Speaker 1: bit of Christian mystery tradition maybe, like there's clearly that element,
Speaker 1: but then there's also like maybe these more quote unquote
Speaker 1: gnostic mystery calls, maybe even like a Hellenic mystery called elements,
Speaker 1: but there's also other elements. And that's what I find
Speaker 1: particularly interesting. They're like a material culture that is bridging
Speaker 1: the gap between like Arabic magic between like the Persian
Speaker 1: mughalized kind of tonric stuff that was coming out of
Speaker 1: like Kashmir, which is why I'm personally interested in. And
Speaker 1: it's also like bridging the gap between like that Semitic
Speaker 1: stuff that Peter Gray has been talking about in his
Speaker 1: Lucifer series. So I just I find it. Really I'm
Speaker 1: so happy that somebody's final doing it, because if people
Speaker 1: often used to say that I was like doing old
Speaker 1: man magic, and I was like, it's really not. It's
Speaker 1: like it's it's not old man magic. You can chaos magic,
Speaker 1: you can utilize them in different ways, but there's something
Speaker 1: really powerful here. So I'm sorry, Nick. So I'm glad
Speaker 1: that somebody is taking up that mantle.
Speaker 2: Well. And I I will say that, you know, there's
Speaker 2: been some criticism that I that I think is actually
Speaker 2: well founded about what I've what I've written by traditionalists
Speaker 2: who because some of the some of the stuff that
Speaker 2: I that I'm putting out in there is dismissive of
Speaker 2: what's in the Grim War, mostly because I'm I'm looking
Speaker 2: at the ritual and I'm going, all right, what are
Speaker 2: the what are the essential elements? And basically what what
Speaker 2: can I trim to make this easier for people to
Speaker 2: get into it? Not with the intention of saying those
Speaker 2: things aren't important, but with the intention of saying, how
Speaker 2: can I get people from you know, not necessarily from
Speaker 2: zero to sixty, but from zero to forty and then
Speaker 2: if they want to take it from there and do
Speaker 2: the full ritual after that, well, there's plenty of resources
Speaker 2: for you. But but like, how how to make you
Speaker 2: know nobody not nobody. There are a few people, I
Speaker 2: think that want to consecrate a pentacle by starting with
Speaker 2: a nine day fast and a fourteen day purification, And
Speaker 2: I mean they're quite extensive, and the equipment's quite expensive,
Speaker 2: and it's like, I don't know. My fact was, can
Speaker 2: we cut some fat off? But I think traditionalists look
Speaker 2: at that and they're like, no, no, we like we
Speaker 2: love the fat, that's the stuff we like. And I'm like, cool,
Speaker 2: then then do that. But also maybe there's a you know,
Speaker 2: maybe there's a middle ground.
Speaker 1: There's definitely a middle ground to this. I think that
Speaker 1: I think actually your approach is probably way more with
Speaker 1: what the quote unquote kids are doing. The kids have
Speaker 1: like utilized who doo and sort of like that the
Speaker 1: quicker consecration methods, like maybe they're still doing the full oration,
Speaker 1: Like that's what I used to do, and I used
Speaker 1: to like do purification productices just like accorded to an Agrippa.
Speaker 1: But I never dressed up. I never you know, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't even necessarily do it at the correct planetary time.
Speaker 1: I would always like on a correct planetary day, of course.
Speaker 1: But you know, if you're in a modern life, you
Speaker 1: don't necessarily you're not necessarily at home at like I'll
Speaker 1: use imagine number like three thirty in the afternoon to like,
Speaker 1: you know, get that pentacle dealt with. So you do
Speaker 1: the best you can, I guess in the modern world.
Speaker 1: So I'm more of your approach memories is like I
Speaker 1: think there's so much fat you can trim off. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of it is unnecessary. I think of
Speaker 1: a lot of the rituals unnecessary. I'm not saying it's
Speaker 1: not useful, and there isn't like metaphysical potency and that sure,
Speaker 1: But I also think you can reproduce like all sort
Speaker 1: of ritual elements. You can reproduce them in small and
Speaker 1: big ways, and you don't necessarily have to follow it
Speaker 1: as like a manual of like a guide of ritual worship,
Speaker 1: like you can actually think for yourself, be like, how
Speaker 1: can I add this? Maybe I'm not going to make
Speaker 1: Helia bore incense to burn in my apartment.
Speaker 2: Well, there was there was a passage in a book
Speaker 2: called like Practical Practical Practical Cabbalistic Symbolism. I think Gareth
Speaker 2: Knight might be the author something like that. He said, yeah,
Speaker 2: he said that one of the one of the things
Speaker 2: about occultism is that if you are if you were
Speaker 2: into that tradition, you don't have the benefit of living
Speaker 2: on a monastery and basically not having other things to
Speaker 2: do every day, because their life is prayer, right, and
Speaker 2: so if they want to pray at three thirty three
Speaker 2: on a Tuesday, they can just stop whatever they're doing
Speaker 2: and go do that. But we have to live in
Speaker 2: the world, and so we have to find a way
Speaker 2: to basically be monks amidst all of you know, well,
Speaker 2: we're still changing diapers and doing dishes and going to
Speaker 2: work and you know, fixing the car and like that's
Speaker 2: so it requires a different set of skills and a
Speaker 2: different approach.
Speaker 3: I think that's awesome that you mentioned Garth Night in
Speaker 3: his book. I've I talk about him all the time
Speaker 3: whenever I referenced Cabala, and I've never heard anybody else
Speaker 3: ever mentioned his name. I think that book is amazing
Speaker 3: with the paths in it too. That that book honestly
Speaker 3: it changed it probably changed my life to an extent
Speaker 3: because of the way they started looking at the Cabala
Speaker 3: with with help on the paths, because that was the
Speaker 3: only thing I ever really read like that that I
Speaker 3: actually know what I should reach out to him. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that would be mind blowing if I got him on
Speaker 3: the show, because he was really very.
Speaker 4: Influential on my magical path. Did anybody have any questions?
Speaker 1: No, okay, well I'll shout out one thing if it's okay,
Speaker 1: is that to just bring up David Rankin again, like
Speaker 1: because Emery's brought him up. And when he came on
Speaker 1: the show, he was even like, I don't do ritual
Speaker 1: magic anymore, like he he doesn't because he has two
Speaker 1: young kids. That's exactly what he said, like, I'm you know,
Speaker 1: I have a real life. I'm like a dad, I'm
Speaker 1: you know, And but he meditates and he does a
Speaker 1: lot of pathworking in his mind, is what he said.
Speaker 1: So I think, like for me, now that I've matured
Speaker 1: a lot in my in my own path, in my
Speaker 1: own mark and sort of reckon, you can learn to
Speaker 1: reconcile a lot of magical things in meditation and in
Speaker 1: of course your mind and sort of all the cabalistic
Speaker 1: pathworkings can really be done in your mind. Now, do
Speaker 1: we have the attention, the you know, the sort of focus,
Speaker 1: the single point at will? I don't know for everybody else,
Speaker 1: but I think a lot. The older I've become, the
Speaker 1: more I understand that is true. So I want to say, like,
Speaker 1: I'm I think even David Rankin would agree with Emory's like,
Speaker 1: you don't need all the you don't need all the
Speaker 1: trappings for sure, thank you sir.
Speaker 3: When people here just I guess this is kind of
Speaker 3: like for the new people. You know, when people hear pentacle,
Speaker 3: they often think of a five pointed star, modern witchcraft
Speaker 3: type of thing. How would you say, Solomon, pentacles are
Speaker 3: different from what other people might think of when it
Speaker 3: comes to those type of traditions. I mean, i'd even say, like,
Speaker 3: you know, some people, especially if they're into more of
Speaker 3: witchcraft of Wicca, you say pentacle, they think you again,
Speaker 3: you know, a piece of wood maybe or something with
Speaker 3: the pentagram on it, completely different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's where that's where, you know, English is
Speaker 2: a funny language. We got we got words that mean
Speaker 2: more than one thing a lot of the time. And
Speaker 2: so yeah, pinnacle describes that shape, but in the sense
Speaker 2: of solemonic pinnacles. It comes from an Italian uh etymology.
Speaker 2: So pend means to hang, and then call is a
Speaker 2: col is neck, so penda hall would be something that
Speaker 2: hangs from the neck. And then that phrase penda call
Speaker 2: just got turned into pentacol. I think in a seventeenth
Speaker 2: or eighteen century French manuscript somebody made the first kind
Speaker 2: of mushed those things together and describe the pentacles that way,
Speaker 2: and it stuck. So so yeah, they they come. It's
Speaker 2: the same word, but it comes from different comes from
Speaker 2: different angles. And you know, trying to figure out when
Speaker 2: the pentacles got mushed together with the rituals that are
Speaker 2: around the pentacles is something that we still don't know,
Speaker 2: like we don't we don't know where those pentacles necessarily
Speaker 2: came from. And in my book, I took you know,
Speaker 2: what was the the kind of academic opinion at the
Speaker 2: time is that they were kind of assumed to come
Speaker 2: from this, this other book of Jewish talismanic magic called
Speaker 2: the Suffrahao Tote or the Book of the Signs. And
Speaker 2: I got a chance to talk to Sarah Mastros, who
Speaker 2: also has an incredible book on pentacles, and so she
Speaker 2: and I will hang on every now and again and
Speaker 2: just talk pinnacles and magic and shit. And we were
Speaker 2: talking about the Otote and she did a translation of it,
Speaker 2: and I said, yes, And you know, after doing the
Speaker 2: translation and all this academic work, what do you think now?
Speaker 2: She goes, well, after having done the work, now, I
Speaker 2: do not think that the pentacles came from that source.
Speaker 2: And I'm back to square one and have no idea
Speaker 2: where they came from. So all we know is that
Speaker 2: at some point in history the Jewish talismans got mushed
Speaker 2: up with the Greek essentially a recension of the Hygramantia.
Speaker 2: And we're not sure who did it, and we're not
Speaker 2: sure why they did it, but that's that's the tradition
Speaker 2: we've been handed. It's which is also I think it's cool, right.
Speaker 2: So you've got essentially these Greek rituals that have been
Speaker 2: semitized and Christianized and blah blah blah blah blah, and
Speaker 2: then you've got these Jewish talismans that fit into that
Speaker 2: tradition and now people are using them together. And I'm like, man,
Speaker 2: I just wish that in other areas of religion and
Speaker 2: spirituality we could do more of that where we're like, oh,
Speaker 2: you've got a cool thing. I've got a cool thing.
Speaker 2: Let's put them together and see we can make an
Speaker 2: ultra cool thing. I think we get a lot farther
Speaker 2: if we took religion that way, then you know, shooting
Speaker 2: each other for it.
Speaker 3: Totally agree, just real quick, I be I don't, and
Speaker 3: I think you might got something you wanted to say,
Speaker 3: but real quick, I did want to I did want
Speaker 3: to say, like, I think that was great that you
Speaker 3: even mentioned the difference of spelling. I totally even forgot
Speaker 3: about that because like you can even look at the
Speaker 3: Golden Dorn and then they're pentacle.
Speaker 4: That's a hexagram. So yeah, that.
Speaker 3: Whole thing of the changing of the words and stuff,
Speaker 3: I totally forgot about that. That's a whole lot of like,
Speaker 3: like you said, it's like a rabbit hole to go
Speaker 3: down to try to figure out how that ever even happened, you.
Speaker 2: Know, and sometimes you just got to throw your hands up,
Speaker 2: you know, like like goiesha spirits, Right, where did they
Speaker 2: come from? Why are they named X, Y or Z?
Speaker 2: I mean, we've got a couple of sources, but like
Speaker 2: most of those sources were actually written to make fun
Speaker 2: of the people who were doing that magic, to say,
Speaker 2: how ridiculous is this that they believe this crazy shit?
Speaker 2: And now we're using them as essentially prime sources for
Speaker 2: making that stuff. So it's super messy and it makes
Speaker 2: no sense, and and we get to a point where
Speaker 2: it's just we don't know. Maybe somebody will discover a book,
Speaker 2: maybe there will be you know, archaeological evidence in the future,
Speaker 2: but right now, there was just a lot about the
Speaker 2: transmission of these documents that we don't we don't have
Speaker 2: good records.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting too that you even said like kind
Speaker 3: of like people poking fun of it is I've been
Speaker 3: like kind of going through like the history of Christianity
Speaker 3: because it was like so like to me, it was
Speaker 3: really interesting, like the first few hundred years, and uh,
Speaker 3: even then, it's like some of that stuff I have
Speaker 3: to I only have evidence of what they were really
Speaker 3: doing by you know, hostile critics, and it's like basically,
Speaker 3: I'm like even then, it's like I have to wonder,
Speaker 3: like how serious was it if you didn't like the
Speaker 3: person already? But yeah, sometimes you really only have information
Speaker 3: going by what the person who didn't agree with it
Speaker 3: was saying about it.
Speaker 2: So and and imagine, yeah, imagine that like a if
Speaker 2: your only source was somebody who hated what you were doing,
Speaker 2: what they would say about your work, and how accurate
Speaker 2: that might be, eh, probably not.
Speaker 3: Like I was covering U Valentinus and it was just
Speaker 3: funny when I read this one thing, I forgot who
Speaker 3: it was. It might have been you cbous who said
Speaker 3: this is somebody and maybe justin Marta, but they're like
Speaker 3: one of their ways of like discrediting, And was like, oh,
Speaker 3: he supposedly went on some like voyage and the ship
Speaker 3: got wrecked, but like he somehow survived and made it
Speaker 3: back but was perverted in the mind. And I was like,
Speaker 3: there you go with the typical Christian shit. Either you're
Speaker 3: a pervert or your worshiping Satan, like like I don't know,
Speaker 3: it's just like at that point, like you know what
Speaker 3: I'm saying, how serious he gonna take a fucking comment
Speaker 3: like that, like tell me how it was shipwrecked equals
Speaker 3: your being a pervert. Now, Like I just don't understand
Speaker 3: the correlation. And it's just like, how serious should you
Speaker 3: take that quote?
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, when you could equally turn
Speaker 2: it around and go, this person is in a shipwreck
Speaker 2: and they were miraculously saved. They must be you know,
Speaker 2: they must have something of value to contribute.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh that was good.
Speaker 3: You know, God God favoring them, you know, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, you can take that in so many different ways.
Speaker 3: Did anybody have anything before I go? I think, Jin,
Speaker 3: did you presive something you wanted to say?
Speaker 1: Uh no, that's totally okay, it's totally okay. I've missed
Speaker 1: the window, but that's fine. I think syncretism is really cool,
Speaker 1: and I think that is actually what magic is about,
Speaker 1: is that it's really about all the technologies coming together.
Speaker 1: And I think that you can see this as long
Speaker 1: as you don't take like a strictly dogmatic view of
Speaker 1: like when and where, like you can easily prove this
Speaker 1: with like Central Asian like religion contra in particular, Like
Speaker 1: it's all of these technologies coming together, all these ideas
Speaker 1: coming to together, and a lot of discourse and a
Speaker 1: lot of heated debate. That's something that people, a lot
Speaker 1: of people in the O cale community really run away from.
Speaker 1: Is this like idea that you can be discursive and
Speaker 1: be like geverratic towards ideas. And that's okay sometimes as
Speaker 1: long as you're respectful, But it's actually really important in
Speaker 1: terms of like the philosophy of religion or the theology,
Speaker 1: or especially in magical terms, like we should be talking
Speaker 1: about what works, what doesn't work, why we don't need
Speaker 1: to retain exactly the same thing as like two hundred
Speaker 1: years years ago, which is also a reconstruction, Like a
Speaker 1: lot of hermeticism is just a reconstruction of like the
Speaker 1: last twenty years much less like the you know, Elfhaeus
Speaker 1: Levy or whatever, and like he was doing a reconstruction.
Speaker 1: So it's I think it's totally okay that we can
Speaker 1: think like quote unquote progressively. We can sort of like
Speaker 1: update with the times and be like, okay, we have
Speaker 1: this thing called the internet. We can speak to each other.
Speaker 1: We may not agree, but let's look at what we
Speaker 1: all have. I totally agree. I think that's the true
Speaker 1: magician's spirit, the true Silk Road spirit.
Speaker 2: You could say, yeah, as long as we don't devolve
Speaker 2: into you know, golden down dick wagging, which is like.
Speaker 1: Well I don't like them either. So there you gotories.
Speaker 2: I was speaking specifically of like Crowley and Mathers and those.
Speaker 2: I mean they destroyed their own They destroyed their own
Speaker 2: organization because their egos were just too big and they
Speaker 2: couldn't allow diverse opinions in the same room.
Speaker 4: That's really good point.
Speaker 1: You know, people shit on theosophy and I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: not a theosophist myself, but like you have to admit
Speaker 1: that the early turn of the century project of like
Speaker 1: trying to synthesize like a new sort of gnostic or
Speaker 1: neo gnostic framework for like the masses as well as
Speaker 1: for people who are interested in as erka. That's probably
Speaker 1: a good idea. And so sometimes I wonder, like why
Speaker 1: all the hate goes to this these I theisart whole ideas,
Speaker 1: Like I don't agree with a lot of it. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying it's all correct, but I think that there's
Speaker 1: definitely a like their project was actually useful and generative
Speaker 1: and good and like we should be looking and incorporating
Speaker 1: all the new gnostic texts that we found both in
Speaker 1: China and of course the ones in Egypt. But there's
Speaker 1: so many more. There's like there's like literally thousands and thousands,
Speaker 1: and there's all these Buddhist texts that we are just
Speaker 1: being translated, like literally people did not know they existed
Speaker 1: ten years ago. There's all these other kinds of like
Speaker 1: Zoroastrian Jervinism, like all of this stuff is like we
Speaker 1: did not have any We were like working on a
Speaker 1: very limited source. Now we have a lot more. And
Speaker 1: it it's not unlimited, but we have a lot more
Speaker 1: source texts now, and so yeah, I think it's important
Speaker 1: to be expansive and and I agree with you memories.
Speaker 1: So I did make a Golden bln joke, which I
Speaker 1: do do sometimes because they do tend to be very dogmatic.
Speaker 1: I think this is like not an unfair criticism. Even
Speaker 1: in their sort of appraisal of Kabala, they tend to
Speaker 1: be very fixed, like, oh, the logos must appear on
Speaker 1: this path and this is the only correspondence. But if
Speaker 1: you study Hebrew Kabala, you know that that's not true.
Speaker 1: Right away because you're like, well, the letters are light,
Speaker 1: so they move through the paths and so they never
Speaker 1: stay fixed. So you know, it's just but gods are
Speaker 1: just a perspectible thing. And I don't ever take it
Speaker 1: personally myself, but I just think it's a funny kind
Speaker 1: of thing where, Yeah, the people who want to be
Speaker 1: syncretic tend to be very dogmatic, and the people who
Speaker 1: are more dogmatic tend to be look for themselves in syncretism,
Speaker 1: like they will try and oh, you see a lot
Speaker 1: of based pagans do this is that they will look
Speaker 1: at Buddhism and be like, oh, this is proof of
Speaker 1: like we existed two thousand years ago in exactly in
Speaker 1: our belief system, and this is exactly how they understood it.
Speaker 1: And that's not true either. But we can say both
Speaker 1: things are like not true and that's okay. It doesn't
Speaker 1: negate you. It just is like we can you know,
Speaker 1: So I any Golden Dawn members listening, I apologize. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I don't kiss your feet or anything, but you guys
Speaker 1: are a little rigid.
Speaker 3: Yeah, one thing I will say kind of like I
Speaker 3: guess going along with what you're getting at, and the
Speaker 3: same thing jin I guess was getting out here is
Speaker 3: that that's kind of like one of the ideas I
Speaker 3: had with the show when I wanted to expand it.
Speaker 3: There was a lot of different people that were on
Speaker 3: here that had different backgrounds, and for me, I just
Speaker 3: thought that was like kind of like taking as cheesy
Speaker 3: as it sounds, sounded like taking like Crowley seven seven seven,
Speaker 3: and it's.
Speaker 4: Like you're that column. You're that column.
Speaker 3: You're that column, because like you're into that pantheon or
Speaker 3: you're into that stuff. And like everybody was still even
Speaker 3: though they didn't necessarily follow the same type of structure,
Speaker 3: we all had a lot of commonalities that would still
Speaker 3: meet because you know, I think that's going to happen
Speaker 3: so uh and with everybody getting along, I think, you know,
Speaker 3: you that's when you start to learn from one and
Speaker 3: one and one another.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: Well, I think too that if we're seeing similar ideas
Speaker 2: pop up at different times and in different cultures, that's
Speaker 2: evidence that we're all pointing at the same thing. Yes, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, there are there are people that look at
Speaker 2: pyramids being constructed in different parts of the world as
Speaker 2: evidence that aliens came and told people how to build pyramids,
Speaker 2: and I'm going that or that is the most efficient
Speaker 2: way to stack rocks. And like, people all over the
Speaker 2: world figured out how stack rocks in this particular way,
Speaker 2: and it happened to last a really long time. And
Speaker 2: so we were comparing different religious traditions and they're all
Speaker 2: seem to be pointing at the same thing. I kind
Speaker 2: of look at this saint like, yes, we're all we're
Speaker 2: all figuring out how to stack the same spiritual rocks
Speaker 2: the same way, and that should be evidence that we're
Speaker 2: onto something.
Speaker 4: Great.
Speaker 3: Example, Uh, Jinny Judith anything, Yeah, all right. One thing
Speaker 3: I didn't want to ask a little bit more about
Speaker 3: the pentacles when it comes to like even like the
Speaker 3: divine names on there, only because like I've even kind
Speaker 3: of seen a difference for myself from being involved. I
Speaker 3: guess in the ceremonial magic community, do you take them
Speaker 3: as like something that are like more symbolic theological? Is
Speaker 3: it even something that you think needs to be vibrated?
Speaker 3: How do you, like how serious do you take like
Speaker 3: the divine names on these seals.
Speaker 2: There's a there is a divine name on something, immediately
Speaker 2: it should be respected. I try and in tone the
Speaker 2: names when I can. In some cases it doesn't make
Speaker 2: it doesn't make as much sense depending on the operation.
Speaker 2: But the way I look at divine names is so
Speaker 2: we all have different names in our lives too, Right,
Speaker 2: So when I'm you know, when I've got a guitar
Speaker 2: in my hand, I'm the musician guy. When I've got
Speaker 2: a book in my hand, I'm the author guy. When
Speaker 2: I put both of those down, and when I walk
Speaker 2: back into my house after this, I'm going to be Dad,
Speaker 2: you know. And and God has an infinite number of
Speaker 2: names as well, because God's an infinite being. And therefore,
Speaker 2: like when you're using a specific divine name, what you're
Speaker 2: doing is basically talking to God and saying, this is
Speaker 2: how I need you to show up today. I need
Speaker 2: this aspect of you. And then and then God knows
Speaker 2: how to show up. I mean probably know it's already anyways,
Speaker 2: but we're making it clear.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I like that.
Speaker 3: A lot of times I've had to explain to people
Speaker 3: like stuff with that, especially when it comes to like
Speaker 3: you know, the sound and the words and just knowing
Speaker 3: how jamatia you can get. I would say, like, like
Speaker 3: I would look at it as like if the radio frequencies.
Speaker 3: The whole thing, I guess is God, but each specific
Speaker 3: channel is like to type in to like tap into
Speaker 3: that one little aspect of the whole thing, you know,
Speaker 3: to get very specific.
Speaker 4: So kind of like how you said that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. I like, I
Speaker 2: like radio frequencies are good. That's a good.
Speaker 4: Analogy anything from the other two.
Speaker 1: I just think it's a good point in general. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like it's about octaves, right, Like there are different
Speaker 1: free vibes for like, if you want to say very cabalistically,
Speaker 1: like the sufferer, you can say that each density has
Speaker 1: a different name, has a different vibration, has a different intonation, resonance, syllable, consonant,
Speaker 1: maybe even a vowel, maybe even a sort of silent
Speaker 1: space in between the words. It's a very important contric
Speaker 1: concept at least, like the space between words actually has
Speaker 1: magical potential in and of itself. So I'm not as
Speaker 1: good as Hebrew. I'm definitely more of like a Central
Speaker 1: Asianist and like my sort of scope of knowledge. But
Speaker 1: there's definitely a way that you know, part of system,
Speaker 1: the five density system makes a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 2: I mean, and physics is, you know, modern physics is
Speaker 2: showing us that a matter and energy are totally swampable
Speaker 2: and be that at the core of both is these
Speaker 2: vibrating strings of energy, and that vibration is really at
Speaker 2: the core of everything that we are. Like even you know,
Speaker 2: I think black holes tend to vibrate at like a
Speaker 2: B flat that's thirty octaves below the human hearing range,
Speaker 2: which means that that B flat has a like a
Speaker 2: wave that's ten thousand years long. Just I just imagine that,
Speaker 2: and then imagine that, you know, we're looking at the
Speaker 2: cosmic microwave background radiation that's basically the Big Bang ringing
Speaker 2: a bell that's still ringing, right, and we're living inside that.
Speaker 2: We're living inside that universe that is ringing with the
Speaker 2: first stirrings of creation, and we're still in it, and
Speaker 2: we're all still vibrating at different frequencies all the time.
Speaker 2: So yeah, why wouldn't we tap into that with our
Speaker 2: magic and make use of it?
Speaker 4: That was wild?
Speaker 3: Ill like that the way you explained that, that was
Speaker 3: pretty funny.
Speaker 4: Nice general, Judith, where you get going?
Speaker 5: I think I do have a question, but it's not
Speaker 5: on particular this line of thinking. But I wanted to
Speaker 5: ask you, when it comes to magical practitioners and the pentacles,
Speaker 5: what is the most uh misunderstood concept that you've come
Speaker 5: across when it comes to that.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, I think, well, probably the wealth pinnacles. When
Speaker 2: people want when people want to get uh get ahead financially.
Speaker 2: I think the you know, the tendency is to jump
Speaker 2: to Jupiter four because Jupiter four is the pentacle for
Speaker 2: growing wealth. But the trick with Jupiter four is that
Speaker 2: it it does its best job growing wealth when you
Speaker 2: already have wealth, so it's for it's for taking what
Speaker 2: you have and growing it. There are other pentacles forgetting
Speaker 2: the initial amounts of wealth, so like Jupiter one, Jupiter two,
Speaker 2: those are both really great for like entrepreneurial type activities.
Speaker 2: Jupiter seven will help keep you out of poverty. So
Speaker 2: if you're if you're at a point where you have
Speaker 2: like no money and no job, Jupiter four is not
Speaker 2: going to.
Speaker 1: Do much for you.
Speaker 2: You want to go to Jupiter seven. You want to
Speaker 2: go to Jupiter seven. First, get out of poverty. Go
Speaker 2: to Jupiter two. Get an idea, build on it, get it,
Speaker 2: you know, get something in your bank account. Then go
Speaker 2: to Jupiter four and grow within your bank account. So
Speaker 2: you want to take a multi step approach, you try
Speaker 2: and jump right into like a Scrooge mcdug type of thing,
Speaker 2: It's not going to work.
Speaker 5: That's why I laughed when you said that, because I
Speaker 5: was like, oh, that means if you have no pennies,
Speaker 5: it's just going to multiply not having pennies in your
Speaker 5: bank account or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Yep, that was a great explanation memories, like for real,
Speaker 1: Like I'm really impressed, and I'm not always the most impressed,
Speaker 1: but I'm really impressed. So Nick knows I'm not a snot,
Speaker 1: I promise, I'm just like I think you have a
Speaker 1: refreshing approach to magic and especially the seals, and like
Speaker 1: they are dynamic, Like I was even thinking, like this
Speaker 1: is even how like I think of it is a
Speaker 1: little different than you. But I agree with everything you said.
Speaker 1: I think that's a perfect way to pathwork through Jupiter.
Speaker 1: I would even say, like you could go fifth pentacle
Speaker 1: Mercury if you have, like if you're feeling blocked, no
Speaker 1: no opportunities, and then you could like work that a
Speaker 1: little bit before you start even working with the pentacles.
Speaker 1: Of Jupiter. So you could just like open those roads
Speaker 1: sort of like let things come in, you know, like
Speaker 1: let's let's set to the energy like move a little
Speaker 1: bit rather than you know, stay stagnant. And I think
Speaker 1: that even if you look at the orations for the
Speaker 1: pentacles of Jupiter, like oh that which a bideth in
Speaker 1: mountain Zion cannot be removed and you know, last forever.
Speaker 1: But so it's it's it's it's kind of like it
Speaker 1: keeps things there. And I think that you're even touching
Speaker 1: on that. It kind of, yes, it magnetizes, it draws
Speaker 1: things in, but it's a really good builder. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: you kind of need to make sure that the energy
Speaker 1: doesn't stay stagnant. And I also think it's interesting since
Speaker 1: you brought up the pentacles of Jupiter, is that two
Speaker 1: of them can be used for protection, and people don't
Speaker 1: really associate those pentacles with protection. And so I guess
Speaker 1: I'm going to follow up Judith and ask you, Emories,
Speaker 1: what do you prefer for protection Pentacles of Mars or
Speaker 1: pentacles of Sondern.
Speaker 2: You know, it really depends. So the the Jupiter protection
Speaker 2: pinnacle is good for your body. If I'm doing protection
Speaker 2: for like spirit. I think I usually I'd probably reach
Speaker 2: for a fourth of the moon because that that's kind
Speaker 2: of that's kind of got some good blanket protections, you know.
Speaker 2: And this isn't aside, but I'm just my brain spinning
Speaker 2: on it as I I did want to mention that
Speaker 2: when people are thinking about wealth, thinking about using just
Speaker 2: Jupiter pinnacles is limiting. I think too, because if you
Speaker 2: want to be someone who has wealth, it certainly pays
Speaker 2: to be charismatic. And so getting a second of Venus
Speaker 2: in there, that's going to help you build your business
Speaker 2: because people people like spending money with people they like
Speaker 2: more than people they don't, So use second of Venus
Speaker 2: to help you be a likable person. Also, if you're
Speaker 2: going into business for yourself, discipline is really important, So
Speaker 2: use a first pinnacle of Mars and use that to
Speaker 2: give you some martial discipline to like make your strategic plan,
Speaker 2: finish your shit, like get stuff out on time, you know,
Speaker 2: because if you don't, your business is not gonna last
Speaker 2: very long. So you can you can use other pinnacles
Speaker 2: from other sets for wealth, just you got to think
Speaker 2: about how they all apply to your situation.
Speaker 5: You mentioned something's very interesting when it comes to dealing
Speaker 5: with the pentacles, which is which is a reoccurring theme
Speaker 5: which I think when most people starts dealings with pentacles
Speaker 5: and talismans they forget, is that you have to actually
Speaker 5: make an adjustment, whether in your dealings or your personality.
Speaker 5: It's not just using the pentacles and expecting it to
Speaker 5: come to fruition. There's a change that we have to
Speaker 5: make too, which is a maybe you could say, whether
Speaker 5: you agree with me, a way of self development.
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's there's a line in my book that I
Speaker 2: pulled from the Zohar that talks about this, and they're
Speaker 2: talking about it in terms of like a romantic union,
Speaker 2: and the summary is basically, there's a guy who's asking
Speaker 2: the rabbi, why can't I find a woman? You know,
Speaker 2: ancient male loneliness epidemic. And the rabbi's response was, well,
Speaker 2: instead of trying to find the perfect woman, have you
Speaker 2: tried being the perfect partner that someone would want to
Speaker 2: be attracted to? And I think about that in Pinnacle
Speaker 2: work all the time. You know, it's it's easier to
Speaker 2: manifest a change within yourself than it is to try
Speaker 2: and get the rest of the world to conform to you.
Speaker 2: So if you use the pinnacles as a way to
Speaker 2: become more of what you want to see, to become
Speaker 2: the kind of person that gets the kinds of things
Speaker 2: you want, I think that kind of transformative personal alchemical
Speaker 2: type magic is a really powerful use for them. Then
Speaker 2: a lot of people overlook, thank you, great, it's a
Speaker 2: good question.
Speaker 3: One thing I did want to ask kind of like
Speaker 3: I guess, like maybe when you go into your research
Speaker 3: or whatever, like a lot of old grimars someone like
Speaker 3: almost contradictory, some are copied through other manuscripts or you know,
Speaker 3: aren't even a full variation, you know, how like you know,
Speaker 3: things can show up here and there. How do you
Speaker 3: decide and like preserve like what uh what you're going
Speaker 3: to use? How to adapt it to what's right and wrong?
Speaker 2: Hmmm? Well, I mean for this book, I decided to
Speaker 2: just pull everything from the Crowley Mathers edition because that's
Speaker 2: the one that most people have, so that seemed like
Speaker 2: a good place to start. But I think a lot
Speaker 2: of the commentary have got about him are informed by
Speaker 2: other versions of the manuscripts, and and I'll just be
Speaker 2: honest that, like most of the manuscripts that are out there.
Speaker 2: I can't I can't read because I don't know those languages.
Speaker 2: So so the stuff that I had to work with
Speaker 2: is this limited to what was either written in English
Speaker 2: or translated already by someone else. And there's not really
Speaker 2: a whole lot of those. I think there's, you know,
Speaker 2: less than ten. A lot of them are written in
Speaker 2: French and German and Italian and and I can I
Speaker 2: can pick little sentences out of there, but I not
Speaker 2: enough to like get real context and do deep work.
Speaker 4: Gotcha, thank you, Judith or Jen.
Speaker 1: I just want to say that I thought both you
Speaker 1: and Judith had great questions, and it's like a little
Speaker 1: intimidating to fall up with those those really good questions. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I'm jealous.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, actually yeah, I was telling you, dude, I was
Speaker 3: very impressed with hers. Actually, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4: Judith.
Speaker 3: Oh can you, like, can you maybe like you know what,
Speaker 3: I should have actually grabbed one to throw up on
Speaker 3: the screen.
Speaker 4: I't want to try to do.
Speaker 3: That now, but do you think you can kind of
Speaker 3: maybe give us an idea? I mean you might, you
Speaker 3: might have done it throughout talking about them, but can
Speaker 3: you kind of give us like an idea of like
Speaker 3: what actually is like all these layers that would be
Speaker 3: typical to like a pentacle, like like you know, you
Speaker 3: know what I'm trying to get out.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, like what makes it a pinnacle and not
Speaker 2: just a drawing?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the first thing is that a pinnacle always
Speaker 2: has a double C circle around the outside, basically establishing
Speaker 2: it as its own sacred space. Inside that double circle
Speaker 2: is the indicatory psalm, usually in Hebrews, sometimes in Latin,
Speaker 2: and then inside yeah, we've got you know, usually there's
Speaker 2: some sacred geometry going on. Pretty much always a divine name.
Speaker 2: The angelic names that you'll see on those are generally
Speaker 2: only found on the emissary pinnacles, which each planetary set
Speaker 2: has one pinnacle that has the names of the four
Speaker 2: angelic emissaries for that planet, and that one always appears
Speaker 2: on the back of whatever pinnacle you've got, and it's
Speaker 2: it's most most of the time it's the first pinnacle
Speaker 2: on the set, but not always, like it's the second
Speaker 2: of the Sun and it's the third of Mercury, so
Speaker 2: some of the sets are a little bit different, but yeah,
Speaker 2: that's that's what you're going to see. The the angelic names,
Speaker 2: and then you know, I think the constructs that are
Speaker 2: on the inside of them are basically just designs that
Speaker 2: are trying to either take words or even single letters
Speaker 2: that in Hebrew have a certain esoteric meaning, and they're
Speaker 2: trying to focus that energy with the artwork to basically
Speaker 2: show what that pentacle is supposed to be doing. But
Speaker 2: it basically reads like like an esoteric I don't know,
Speaker 2: like an instruction manual for the angels you're calling saying
Speaker 2: this is what we like. Yeah, so that's a that's
Speaker 2: a protection one.
Speaker 1: Right, Sorry, I had to do it. Fifth pench cold
Speaker 1: Mercury wrote open l app my favor.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so you can see around the outside what
Speaker 2: I was talking about at the top there. This one's
Speaker 2: got the Star of David, but it's not always the
Speaker 2: Star of David. Sometimes it's an equal arm cross. Sometimes
Speaker 2: it's like a weird shape that I haven't been able
Speaker 2: to identify. But I call it the keystone glyph, and
Speaker 2: they've always got a keystone glyph. But yeah, that's that's
Speaker 2: what I would say kind of defines a pentacle.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Emories, I didn't mean to throw off our
Speaker 1: Marshall discussion I should have pulled up a pentacle of Mars.
Speaker 1: I just went with what was first in my head.
Speaker 1: But you know, you're totally right. And I think also
Speaker 1: you could read like the megas like the Celestial Intelligencer,
Speaker 1: and especially for this one, I think this is a
Speaker 1: good illustration of it. But there are pentacles of Jupiter
Speaker 1: with like the four way crossroads, you could say. And
Speaker 1: so if you imagine in your mind like walking on
Speaker 1: a physical crossroads, you could say, like, like you said,
Speaker 1: this this is like the it is the microcosmic construction
Speaker 1: of the macrocosmic magicians space. So if you are on
Speaker 1: the crossroads, you will visualize like the Yadevave and like
Speaker 1: all the things, and you're evoking like the whatever angels
Speaker 1: of mercury in this case, or the intelligences or some
Speaker 1: kind of planetary force. So you're going to do works
Speaker 1: with the air and it sort of that will be
Speaker 1: how it's sort of laid out. But that's what this is.
Speaker 1: It's like the container for like the Greater Ceremonial working
Speaker 1: in a small vessel. And so I just want to say,
Speaker 1: I really love the way you described it, and I
Speaker 1: didn't mean to throw you. I apologize.
Speaker 2: No. No, I like the way you just described it that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: yes to everything you said.
Speaker 4: Nice.
Speaker 1: Nice.
Speaker 3: Did anybody have any other questions or anything they wanted
Speaker 3: to add? I might just ask one more question and
Speaker 3: wrap this up. So if you got anything else, let
Speaker 3: me know now. No, all right, Emories with this book,
Speaker 3: what is the one thing you hope people take away
Speaker 3: from this book?
Speaker 2: I hope that they are able to see solemnonics as
Speaker 2: a workable system they can bring into their life and
Speaker 2: use it in a meaningful way to make life better
Speaker 2: for themselves and everyone else on the planet.
Speaker 4: That's great. I like that.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Emory's for coming on. I know
Speaker 3: we had to even reschedule. I think I picked Eastern
Speaker 3: and didn't even realize it. So thank you very much
Speaker 3: for coming on. I was really really looking forward to this,
Speaker 3: and I was looking forward to, you know, if Jink
Speaker 3: and make it too, because I knew he was big
Speaker 3: into this stuff.
Speaker 4: And Judia, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3: Great questions before we let you let everybody know what's
Speaker 3: up with your stuff. Judith, please remind everybody where they
Speaker 3: can find all your amazing work.
Speaker 5: First, thank you, thank you Cardinal for having me here.
Speaker 5: Thanks Nick. Thank you Emories. Actually you've opened up. You've
Speaker 5: made the Solomon workings a little bit more understandable and
Speaker 5: feasible for me, So I thank you for that and
Speaker 5: everyone else. You can find me on YouTube x and
Speaker 5: on Spreaker as the Loom and jin oh yes, Jin
Speaker 5: is always a pleasure seeing you.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Juter, I appreciate you making it for real
Speaker 3: and Gin and Ninja what is going on?
Speaker 4: So please let everybody know what's up with you. Well.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much Cardinal obviously for inviting me. This
Speaker 1: is like I mean, you knew. I mean we've known
Speaker 1: each other so long. It's like, yeah, this is my
Speaker 1: this is what I like. And I just want to
Speaker 1: say thank you so much Judith for that shout out
Speaker 1: a special at the end, Memories. Honestly, like seriously, I'm
Speaker 1: like blown away. I think this was a great episode.
Speaker 1: I think you explained the Pentacles in like a very
Speaker 1: modern not I don't think you're a shoeing traditionalism in
Speaker 1: any way. I just think you're kind of, like I
Speaker 1: would say, you're liberating them a little bit from the
Speaker 1: you know, stuffy old fashion like kind of librarian style magic.
Speaker 1: But I don't want to put words in your mouth,
Speaker 1: but I seriously, I am impressed and I'm glad that
Speaker 1: somebody who is doing this. I think, you know, we
Speaker 1: live in an a on of magic right now, especially online.
Speaker 1: It's like every every knowledge, all the systems are available,
Speaker 1: so we need like that little bit of gevaratic discernment.
Speaker 1: And that's also part of different too, Like you know,
Speaker 1: it's not just all fun in games. You have to
Speaker 1: have a little discipline, a little refinement, a little discursive fire,
Speaker 1: and like we were saying, and that's okay, all that's okay,
Speaker 1: Just like the pentacles of Mars. They can be dangerous
Speaker 1: and you can burn yourself with them, but they're they're
Speaker 1: they're important, and they're really useful and they have a
Speaker 1: lot of power, just like all of them do. And
Speaker 1: it's a good way to learn the you know seven.
Speaker 1: I know I've been the most critical of the seven
Speaker 1: planets probably on the panel for the last two years,
Speaker 1: but you know, it's a it's a great way to
Speaker 1: learn the seven planetary elements and sort of their natures.
Speaker 1: And that's how I learned too. So I'm not saying
Speaker 1: anything you know, outside of myself by saying that so,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Memories. If people want to check
Speaker 1: me out, they can check me out on Wukong Reborn,
Speaker 1: w uk O and g Reborn. That's on Twitter or
Speaker 1: at Threshold Saints both on x Twitter and also ig
Speaker 1: that's the show account Spotify, Apple and of course Threshold
Speaker 1: Saints subsect dot com and our YouTube channel which is
Speaker 1: YouTube dot com slash at the True Gray Lodge t
Speaker 1: r V. So that's our group show. It's every it's
Speaker 1: bi monthly right now, it's Friday night, Gnostic Mass. Let's
Speaker 1: we do. We're not doing a series at the moment,
Speaker 1: but we might who knows. And so thank you guys
Speaker 1: so much. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Great show, Beyon really appreciate, like it's it's fun to
Speaker 2: come on a podcast where you guys are asking like
Speaker 2: deep intelligent questions and I really get it. We get
Speaker 2: a chance to like get into it and I love it.
Speaker 2: And uh and Judith, I want to show you I
Speaker 2: got I got my loon pin on because I'm in Minnesota.
Speaker 2: So that's that's our.
Speaker 5: Thank you. Not many people understand the symbol of.
Speaker 3: The loom, but yes, please Emory, let everybody know where
Speaker 3: they can like find any of your work, promote your books,
Speaker 3: you know, whatever you want to let people know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can. Uh, you can find all of my
Speaker 2: wares and stuff at the Acoustic Alchemist on Etsy. I'm
Speaker 2: on social media just under Emorus Abner. There's there aren't
Speaker 2: any others, so it'll be easy to find. And I've
Speaker 2: got an I wish band that is going to be
Speaker 2: uh we're going to be headlining the Mystic South Conference
Speaker 2: in Atlanta this year, so if you want to check
Speaker 2: out we h. We released an album earlier this year
Speaker 2: and the album's called The Clips and the band is
Speaker 2: called the Mac and Cheese Band.
Speaker 4: Absolute. When is that event?
Speaker 2: Mid July? Yeah, it's the it's the same weekend as
Speaker 2: the World Cup. I can. I can get exact day
Speaker 2: here in one second. It's July July seventeenth and eighteenth, yep,
Speaker 2: and you'll be there, so so yeah, seventeenth and eighteenth
Speaker 2: of July. If so, if you want to, if you're
Speaker 2: gonna go to the Mystic South Conference, then we're going
Speaker 2: to be playing some jigs and reels and everybody can
Speaker 2: come dance and it'll be a fun time.
Speaker 4: I might actually check that out. I'm in North Carolina.
Speaker 4: So interesting.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much though for coming on. Like, like
Speaker 3: Evan Jin said, I thought that was awesome.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of people who listen to
Speaker 3: this show that you know are fairly new to this
Speaker 3: still and your book. I feel like it's kind of
Speaker 3: like Solomonic Pentacles for dummies, you know. I think you
Speaker 3: like you really like you really have a good way
Speaker 3: of presenting it. And again, like I even said, like,
Speaker 3: there's a lot in this book.
Speaker 4: It's a big book. There's a lot of pages.
Speaker 3: Like I was, I swear I was probably was like,
Speaker 3: holy shit, this is an actual book.
Speaker 4: I'm just keeping it real.
Speaker 3: There's some books that Llewellen has sent me authors and
Speaker 3: I'm like, what the hell is this? Keeping it real? So, uh,
Speaker 3: thank you. You know, I really hope that, uh you know,
Speaker 3: if my fans are interested in this stuff, they take
Speaker 3: a look at your work. So, uh again, thank you
Speaker 3: for coming on I'm pretty sure we can probably have
Speaker 3: you on in the future again and talk about more stuff.
Speaker 3: I really would be interested when you put out that
Speaker 3: other bok of those other things, adding the goetic demons
Speaker 3: and the angels together, I would that I really would
Speaker 3: like to get your unfold.
Speaker 2: So oh we could get deep on that too, man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, hell yeah, look forward to that. Thank you everybody again.
Speaker 4: Thank you Jin, thank you Judith.
Speaker 3: I really appreciate you guys coming on to ask the
Speaker 3: amazing questions. It was a really good time and everybody
Speaker 3: in the chat that's what's up. I appreciate you all there.
Speaker 3: I appreciate the comments and the questions. That's why we
Speaker 3: go live and until the next one, everybody be well
Speaker 3: later