WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.200 The disclaimer to the fair season. Karen's out there? How 2 00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:05.719 dare you? All guests on the show do not reflect 3 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:09.320 the opinions of the host. The purpose of the show 4 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:11.759 is to have interesting conversations, stretch our minds and grow 5 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:14.960 not what we want. If you are looking for an 6 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:18.160 echo chamber viewers and listener discretion, he's advised. 7 00:00:22.039 --> 00:00:24.199 Did you talk about extreme. 8 00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:32.439 Ledge? We were guilty from the sun. 9 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:39.039 They don't fear the questions, they fear the fuck. So 10 00:00:39.240 --> 00:01:02.159 we see through slow content, think the racy but sound dart. 11 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:16.719 Show what real? Hey, guys, what is happening? What is up? Old? 12 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.120 O's that glass? Baby? Because you know what time it is, 13 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:21.959 we are about to fill it up a Welcome to 14 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:26.000 the Prometheus Lins podcast replaced with the conversations are always 15 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:29.280 in lightning. I am your host, Doc Brown, and here 16 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:32.680 we like to use the allegory other Prometheus lens to 17 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:36.079 take a second look at everything. Guys, Hey, if you're 18 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:38.879 new to the channel, welcome to the Hero's Journey. Please 19 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:42.760 be sure and hit that like button, smash that subscribe button. 20 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:45.400 Hey guys, why I got your attention? Please please please 21 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:47.640 check out this banner down below with all of our 22 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:50.640 social media is up their various platforms that would be 23 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:56.040 much much appreciated. Well, guys, welcome back. Man. I'm trying 24 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:57.319 to get settled into these lives. 25 00:01:57.359 --> 00:01:57.480 You know. 26 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:00.120 I do want every Sunday at eight pm East and 27 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:03.519 Standard like our little live study group, but I want 28 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:06.680 to try actually start doing some live interviews at least, 29 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:09.319 you know, once a week. And so it reached out 30 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:12.280 to my good buddy Nick from the Occult Rejects. I've 31 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:15.879 seen a deep dive he did on satrin Ilias and 32 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:20.400 Valentinas and these are basically the first Christian heretics. Man, 33 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:22.759 so this was kind of up my alley and I've 34 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:24.319 not talked about him yet. So I wanted to reach 35 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:27.719 out to Nick and had this conversation. So I'm gonna 36 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:29.680 kill this music right here. I'm gonna bring up my 37 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:33.319 split screen and let's see here if this works out 38 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:36.400 for us. Yes, and there is, Nick, Nick, thank you 39 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:38.960 so much for joining us, brother, what's going on? 40 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:41.120 Thank you for having me on to this, Amen. 41 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:43.680 I appreciate you sharing your time and your research with us. Man. 42 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:46.439 For those that's not familiar with you and your channel, 43 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:49.080 or maybe didn't catch the previous episode that we did 44 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:51.319 together just kind of give everybody a synopsis of who 45 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:53.520 you are, what your channel is, and what you do. 46 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:58.599 Brother. Sure sure, yeah, Neick from the Occult Rejects. It's 47 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.199 a podcast basically focused on a you know, like a 48 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.039 cultism conspiracy. It was a little bit heavier more on 49 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:06.840 the occult and the product past, but I've I've tried 50 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:09.319 to take it a little bit more towards the occult 51 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:12.800 and trying to, I guess, demystify and show science and 52 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:15.560 you know, all that stuff is along as well with it, 53 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:19.400 and I do try to just you know, cover cover 54 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:22.879 certain topics that I think all kind of are in 55 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:26.000 the same area somehow, you know, even sacred architecture, Like 56 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:29.080 I dropped an episode today when the Stones sing, you know, 57 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:31.639 we're showing like sacred architecture and how the reverberants and 58 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:33.840 all that decay time and all this tons of stuff 59 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:36.360 and how they're built on purpose to affect you. I 60 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:39.919 would say that's still in a sense possibly magic or 61 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.000 cult science. So I do, you know, cover that stuff 62 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:46.120 just as an example. So it's tons of different things. 63 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:47.960 I got stuff on that coming out on the eyeball 64 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:51.360 and the twelve Crinial nerves. Pilot was I have to 65 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:57.360 do with magic watch it. Yeah, tons of tons of stuff, 66 00:03:57.719 --> 00:03:59.479 but it is heavily a cult, I will put it 67 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:01.159 that way. It's it's a lot more on magic and 68 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:03.439 all these different types of I guess ways of looking 69 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:04.400 at it. Mhm. 70 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.479 And just from some conversations that we've had and I've 71 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:10.000 heard you on your show, you kind of lean more 72 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.039 into instead of it being so woo woo, there's actually 73 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:16.519 some science behind it instead of just missed all you know, 74 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:17.120 woo woo. 75 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:20.759 Yeah, No, I think I I that's my opinion. I 76 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:22.720 think this. I think those are actually some of the 77 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:25.079 secrets of secrets and the mysteries is when you start 78 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:29.000 getting into a into physiology and I, you know, so 79 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:31.240 you know, in life after death possibly you know. I 80 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:33.720 do think that is a you know, the experience of death, 81 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:35.800 you know, and there as well. 82 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.800 Yeah, the hero's journey. Man. I did a little show 83 00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:43.399 with Steve here recently talking about that and how, uh 84 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:45.839 you know, with the Christian point of view, how we 85 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:50.079 look at all the other rituals and different belief systems 86 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:53.959 and stuff, how they are so similar and uh, how 87 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:57.319 that basically is a u in the Christian viewpoint anyway, 88 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.639 kind of like a uh like a rubbed rubbed the 89 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:04.160 nose and the kind of like spiritual warfare type thing 90 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:05.000 going on there. 91 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:08.800 I think, uh, when we getting into Valentinis, I think 92 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:10.560 they even have something onlike you know, kind of like 93 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:12.439 a death think about death. 94 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:15.720 Oh awesome, dude, well man, just for uh, I guess 95 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:17.839 before we jump into the meat of the matter, I 96 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:20.120 guess kind of just give everybody a little bit of groundwork. 97 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:20.480 Uh. 98 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:25.000 Uh Saturnalia, Uh, Saturnilius and Valentinis. 99 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:25.360 Uh. 100 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:27.720 Who are these guys and and what do they have 101 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:28.319 in common? 102 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:32.439 I sawt it. I don't even remember how I even 103 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:34.680 got into these people originally. There might have been names 104 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:36.439 that started coming up when I went into play them, 105 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.160 because you can start coming across like you know, certain 106 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:42.240 Christians or whatever, Catholics in the in like you know, 107 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:45.399 around two hundred, you know a d and I think 108 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:47.680 I just started coming across like these just sects of 109 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:50.720 Christianity that like I never heard of the Satin millions. 110 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:54.519 I had heard of Valentina's because he's considered like I believe, 111 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.600 or that he's a Gnostic saint actually, so I had 112 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:01.279 known of him and Hippolytis is actually too, which they 113 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:04.199 kind of argue on certain things. So I found that interesting. 114 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:08.319 But so I knew who he was, and I think 115 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:10.480 more for me, I was just like, wow, there's like 116 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:13.079 even for myself, just keeping it real, there were so 117 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:15.839 many of these ideas are these or these sects of 118 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.079 Christianity that I never knew about, And I was like, 119 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:20.600 I just thought it was interesting as hell. So I 120 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:23.560 started looking into them and I was like, yeah, I 121 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:26.480 should cover these things. It's actually pretty interesting, you know, 122 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:30.959 and I do think it helps to uh for me, 123 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:34.079 it changed, uh. I think it just kind of also 124 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:37.600 gave me a different context. I guess like what was 125 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:40.160 going on back then, you know, it did seem like 126 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:44.040 around that time these people that we will be talking about, 127 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:48.800 seems to be when the church I think finally started 128 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:50.480 to have to step in and was like started to 129 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:53.240 kind of tell like, well, I guess tell people like 130 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:57.879 what to believe honestly, like this isn't correct and this 131 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:01.279 is you know whatever. So I thought that was interesting 132 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:03.600 too that like, and I even have other ones that 133 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:06.040 I will be covering too. These aren't just the only ones, 134 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:07.839 but these are the ones that have gotten done so far. 135 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:10.319 There's probably about two or three other ones that I 136 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:12.480 wanted to cover, but it was a big group of 137 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:14.480 you know, just at that time, there was a bunch 138 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:18.879 of different people that kind of had different ideas on Christianity. 139 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:22.160 One thing I do want to add from the ones 140 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:27.399 that I'm covering now, just they do still believe in 141 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:30.560 God and they do still acknowledge Jesus, so I guess 142 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:32.839 that's why they are still under Christianity. I do want 143 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:35.560 to just make that clear. They weren't discrediting Jesus or 144 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:37.839 God at all. They just seem to look at I 145 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:41.079 think the way of getting to an experience with God 146 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:44.920 or their look on what this reality was tended to 147 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.600 be different than what I think most you know, or 148 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:50.279 whatever the Catholic Church thought you should be thinking. So 149 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:51.519 it was a little bit different than that. 150 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:56.360 But yeah, that's Realian God. I never even heard of neither, 151 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:58.759 to be honest with you, Nick, I was familiar with Valentinus, 152 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:02.319 and I'd heard people say, you know, basically he believed 153 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:05.839 in two gods, like the Old Testament was a separate God, 154 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.600 and that Jesus came to free us from the dominion 155 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:14.120 of this tyrant known as Jahweh and uh, I knew 156 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.439 that was kind of his baseline, but he was he 157 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:19.800 was actually into the Roman Church and was in line 158 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:23.839 to be a bishop, and then someone else was selected, 159 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:25.839 and then shortly after this that's when he forms his 160 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.120 own sect. And that's just kind of like the thirty 161 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:30.959 thousand foot view that I knew. But I'm not really 162 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:32.840 tooking a deep dive on this guy, but especially that 163 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:35.519 the Saturnilias guy. I never even heard of him before. 164 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:40.159 I've heard of saturnilia you know. That's what on Valentine's Day. 165 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.159 That's what caught my intention. I was like, oh wait, 166 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:44.639 I was like, what was this have to do it? 167 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:46.159 I thought maybe they had to do with that, and 168 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:48.240 really wasn't. So that's what made me even look into them. 169 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:51.600 But yeah, they seem to have and as you'll see 170 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.320 when I start getting into it, the major people at 171 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:56.840 the time that was starting to kind of crack down 172 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.799 on what I guess Christianity would be mentioned these people. 173 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:04.840 I'm just assuming they must have been important enough, especially 174 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:06.799 like when you get to the Valentini's, like there is 175 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:09.639 proof of like there being two schools, you know, like 176 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:11.879 one in Antioch and one in Rome, so I mean, 177 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:15.480 obviously it's spreading too, so you know they Another reason 178 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:17.240 why I'm covering them is because it seems like if 179 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:20.519 these figures are saying something about them, they must have 180 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:25.480 been big enough to I guess worry about it. But 181 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:28.039 they're big enough to get their attention that they had 182 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:29.159 to write about them. 183 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:31.639 So I just your point of view too, because I mean, 184 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:34.080 we have to be and that's something that I catch 185 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:37.879 some flat for from my Christian brothers and sisters. But 186 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:40.200 I'll tell people like, we have to be skeptical, we 187 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:42.919 have to ask questions, we have to be theologically honest 188 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:45.159 because other people that are not believers are going to 189 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:47.559 laugh at us, you know what I mean. We have 190 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:52.399 to be you know, honest with ourselves. And yeah, when 191 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:55.360 you when I listen to you do that reading and 192 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:58.679 study there, you'd said, Now, Gods, keep in mind that 193 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:01.960 what we have of available, the information about these guys 194 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.519 are written by people who've seen them as heretics and 195 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:08.399 they were their whole mission of writing about them was 196 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:11.320 to you know, they had an agenda when they were writing, 197 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.159 and we have to be honest about that, you know, 198 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:17.519 even if we believe, you know, our early church fathers 199 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:20.639 were right, but they wrote this with the intent to 200 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:23.000 try to make these people look bad. I'm not taking 201 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:25.600 up for them. I'm just being theologically this year. 202 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:28.480 No, No, that's actually something I was going to mention 203 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:30.159 before we got into it too, So thank you for 204 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.679 covering that. Yeah, that's they'd be considered like hostile writers, 205 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.200 you know, I think that's the phrase that's used. Yeah, 206 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:40.320 they did. It's people who Yeah, and unfortunately that's pretty 207 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:43.159 much a lot of how how these people have remembered 208 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:45.440 actually is from these people having comments about them and 209 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:47.159 kind of giving you a little bit of reasons why 210 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:51.039 they didn't agree with them. So yeah, it's pretty much 211 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:53.440 for both of these people how exactly I got the 212 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:56.840 information I got. But yeah, I don't know if you 213 00:10:56.919 --> 00:10:58.200 want me to sort of get them too. Like the 214 00:10:58.240 --> 00:10:59.559 sat of millions or anything. 215 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:01.879 Is yours, man, whichever one you want to start with 216 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:04.399 and kind of take us through, show us what you've 217 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:04.840 dug up. 218 00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:08.639 Bro all right? Uh again with the like with the 219 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:12.159 Satin millions, Uh, you're there. With Valentine's it's a little 220 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:15.960 bit different the Saturn millions. You really have nothing left 221 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.360 behind it them. Ever, any writings again, like this is 222 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.000 really going by what these other people said. Uh, he's 223 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:24.639 a vised through like people like Ironais and Hippolytis who 224 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:27.039 thought his teachings were dangerous and wanted to you know, 225 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:30.840 kind of get it taken care of or silence it. 226 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:34.480 So you have you know, them and a couple other people. 227 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:38.360 But again this is a strictly just people's word of 228 00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:40.360 mouth or what they had to say about this stuff. 229 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:48.679 According to them, saturn Saturninus uh is also from Antioch. 230 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:51.159 So that's the one thing that like, you really don't 231 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.000 know much about him, but he is quoted from coming 232 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:57.919 from Antioch and living near Daphne. Now, one thing I 233 00:11:57.960 --> 00:11:59.840 did find interesting is that when you look into that, 234 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:01.799 I don't know if it was just because it just 235 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.360 happened to be close over there, but that town was 236 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:06.840 like even considered like a bougie place for people to go, 237 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:09.679 like rich people to go to. So I wondered, like 238 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:12.159 if they mentioned that because I don't know, for some 239 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:16.440 specific reason, who knows, Well, it was just whatever, But. 240 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:23.200 Yeah, this guy was praying on the rich and the wealthy. Yeah, 241 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:25.159 snake all salesman. 242 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:31.039 Yeah you never know, right, that's funny. God, It's like 243 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:35.919 one of those like culture see on Netflix now it's 244 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:40.159 winning Flames and some shit. Yeah so all right, get 245 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:42.879 back to it. I'm sorry, but uh yeah, so he 246 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:45.360 was also now Antioch at that time. I just wanted 247 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.399 also mentioned that that was a mix. It was very 248 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.399 mixed at that time. You had Greeks, Syrians, Romans, Jews 249 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:53.039 all formed part of life in the city. There was 250 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:57.279 pagan sanctuary, still imperial ideology, there was a Jewish communal 251 00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:59.960 life in Christian groups like all together in this area 252 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:05.000 at this time. So that probably like, uh, that's probably 253 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:07.120 like a good place for people to like maybe pop 254 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:09.039 up with new ideas because there's just so much shit 255 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:14.120 going on and so many people looking at different yeah. Yeah, yeah. 256 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:18.559 And again this was during the second century, so at 257 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:20.679 that point, like I was saying before, you have different 258 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.279 groups they're claiming, you know, different groups claim Jesus, Scripture, revelation, 259 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:28.600 and salvation in total different ways. You know, later authors 260 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:32.600 such as uh, you know, Justin and Irenaeus and Eusebius, uh, 261 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:34.559 you know, record some of that stuff that I look 262 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:40.360 get to. The earliest surviving author to mention the Satin 263 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:43.360 milions is by Justin Martyr ten On me, and you've 264 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:45.080 mentioned that to each other. We knew who he was. 265 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:46.159 He's got a first name. 266 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:53.320 Yeah yeah. And in the Dialogue of Typho thirty five, 267 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:57.919 Justin says there are many who confess Jesus are the 268 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:01.480 There are many who confess Jesus and are called Christians, 269 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:05.559 but who teach the doctrines of spirits of error. And 270 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:10.240 he explicitly names groups after their founders, including which this 271 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:14.120 is another one that will be covering the Martians, Valentinians, 272 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:18.320 the Basilidians, which I might cover them too, and the Saturnillians. 273 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:23.759 So obviously he was those Maybe those groups all might 274 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:26.480 have been like the same amount of you know, same size, 275 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:28.960 you know, at least they. 276 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.120 Had a decent amount of followers for them to you 277 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:32.000 know college. 278 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:38.759 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Uh. The main difficulty is 279 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:41.320 that Saturday Night. Again, we don't have any of his writings, 280 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:44.120 so we have to pretty much go into the criticism. 281 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.960 The central witness will be pretty much Ironeis, who was 282 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.120 Bishop of Lyone, writing in the later second century, and 283 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:54.840 in his Against Heresies was composed around one a d c. 284 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:58.480 And is one of the foundational anti heretical works of 285 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:04.240 early Christianity. If anybody's interested, it's called against heresies. Yeah, 286 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.279 Ironaus is dispensable because without him he wouldn't you wouldn't 287 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:10.720 know much really about Saturn nightis at all. He also 288 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.440 was partisan. Again, he's defending the unity of the Creator 289 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.159 and the Highest God, the authority of the Hebrew scriptures 290 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.480 and stuff like that. So iron Aus is not neutral 291 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:26.799 and against heresies. One four. Ironaus says Saturnight sat Sataninus 292 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:32.320 to it, one father unknown to all, and that the 293 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:34.759 world and all things in it were made by a 294 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:39.200 company of seven angels. So like he's kind of giving 295 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:41.480 us a little bit of an idea of their cosmos, 296 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:44.080 you know. And and this cosmos is no longer the 297 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.639 work of the Highest God. Instead, now there's a supreme 298 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.039 Father who stands above the world, while the world itself 299 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.759 belongs to lower makers. Basically you start looking at it 300 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:57.519 like that. Iron As then gives sat an Ilian anthropology. 301 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:00.960 Humanity he says was made by a juels after the 302 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:04.600 appearance of a shining image from above. But the first 303 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:08.639 man could not stand upright and instead wiggled on the 304 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:11.879 ground until the higher power. Since the spark of life, 305 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:17.240 that spark gave vitality and uprightness, and after death it 306 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:21.120 returned upward while the body dissolved into the elements. 307 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.120 So that's that's kind of like we're is that like 308 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:29.120 the start of like the Cobbalistic top views. I know, 309 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:31.919 the Cobbolists kind of share that, you know, divine spark 310 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:35.320 kind of theology, or did they borrow from them? You know, 311 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:38.120 which one came first? Well, the Cobblists had to have 312 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:39.080 come first, didn't they. 313 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:45.840 I mean, I would think so because of coming off 314 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:50.559 of you know, their acknowledging the Old Testament, and that's Jewish, 315 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:52.080 you know what I'm saying. So, I mean, I'm just 316 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:56.799 guessing that that came first, and that this might be influenced, 317 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:02.960 though maybe that's just my guess. The Savior and iron 318 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:08.359 and Ironaeus summary was He also gives Saturnilian christology the 319 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:12.359 Savior and iron As The summary was without birth, without body, 320 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.559 and without figure, appearing as a man only in appearance. 321 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.400 So and then he comes kind of with another explosive claim. 322 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.160 Iron Aa says Saturnineus taught that the God of the 323 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:27.119 Jews was one of the angels that breaks the continuity 324 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:29.240 between the God of Israel and the father of proclaimed 325 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.880 by Christ now, so like he's even you know. Ironaus 326 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:38.480 also says Saturninus divided humanity into wicked and good. He 327 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:43.440 held that demons aided the wicked, treated marriage and generation 328 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:48.480 as Satanic, reported that many followers abstained from animal food, 329 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.319 and said that some prophecies came from the world making angels, 330 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:59.440 and others from Satan. So the first major doctrinal claim 331 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:01.759 is the distinct between the highest God and the makers 332 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:04.839 of the world. Iron As says Saturninus to one father 333 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:07.279 unknown to all, and that the world and everything again 334 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.880 was made by angels. Hippolytis confirms that as well as 335 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:14.079 saying that that's what they said, so you even have 336 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:19.680 Hippolytis confirming that. Iron A says the angels made man 337 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:23.039 after the likeness of a higher image, but could not 338 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:25.839 make him stand upright like we said before. Again, he 339 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:28.200 wiggled on the ground until the higher power sent the 340 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:30.920 spark of life that raised him up and gave him vitality. 341 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:35.519 Hippolytis preserves the same pattern and describes the gift as 342 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:40.240 a scintillation of life, and after death, the higher element 343 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:44.000 returns upward while the body dissolves into the material order. 344 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:47.640 The same thing. Hippolytis is also just saying that's what 345 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:54.359 they said. Iron A says, yeah, no, no, no, go no, 346 00:18:54.480 --> 00:19:01.359 you're totally right. Uh. Platonism, I mean my opinion, believe 347 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:03.200 it or not, especially you know when it comes to 348 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:09.559 origin and a couple other people see in Augustine. Just 349 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:13.720 my opinion. I do think the influenced Christianity. So I 350 00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:16.400 do think they're in there like Platonism isn't isn't it. 351 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:17.759 It's just my opinion. 352 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:21.119 Because they had the whole view of physicality and spirituality. 353 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:23.920 You know, man was two and one, and you know, 354 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:28.440 basically the energy or the spirit life force continued on. 355 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:30.440 Then you have like the four world. 356 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:33.200 Yeah, a lot of similarity there. 357 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:38.960 Yeah yeah, yeah, I would even say, which is interesting 358 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:43.680 because a lot of Platonists didn't like Gnostics, but a 359 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:46.160 lot of Gnostics seem to kind of use like Platonism 360 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:49.359 or Neoplatonism and this stuff, but then added a little 361 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:51.559 bit of me kind of like these people. I wouldn't 362 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.640 necessarily say, I mean it even came up when I 363 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:57.160 was looking into him that like the call Satinnelion's gnostic. 364 00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:59.480 It's not like it's kind of that, but not fully, 365 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.039 but you know, they're kind of close to with Valentinians, 366 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:03.799 I would totally says the coffee. 367 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:06.200 It was painting the rod brush. But that's probably why 368 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.440 the Platonists, you know, Platonists kind of looked at them 369 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:12.119 in a raw way because it's like, hey, you're taking 370 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:14.559 our ideas and you're perverting it and twisting. 371 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:20.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was Dad was Actually the one 372 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:23.160 big thing with Plotinus that he had a problem with, uh, 373 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:28.160 with some of the Gnostics is that they were humanizing 374 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:31.319 archetypes that weren't supposed to be humanized, and then like 375 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:33.920 it kind of like he thought of like lust the 376 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.359 whole thing, you know what I'm saying, like now you're 377 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.960 going to turn like you know, Sophia into like like 378 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:41.160 I don't know, it's just certain things that they were 379 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.400 putting onto like gods or making them human that it's 380 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:46.480 like that we're not talking about it that though, like 381 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.640 it's not informed. So that was kind of one of 382 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:54.640 their reasons they didn't agree with them. Iron As also 383 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.279 again yeah, I said, uh, Saturday Ninnis taught that the 384 00:20:57.319 --> 00:20:59.400 god of the Jews was one of the angels. A 385 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:05.039 Hippolyotia preserved that as well, who else forgot where it 386 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.680 was when I left? Oh right, Yeah, there's two kinds 387 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:10.759 of humans in conflict. Irona says Saturninus claimed there was 388 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.759 two kind of men were formed by the angels, one 389 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:15.759 wicked and one good. He also says that demons aided 390 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:18.759 the wicked and the savior from the destruction of evil 391 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:22.559 men and demons and for the salvation of good and 392 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:28.720 Hippolytis confirms that structure. Then when he came to marriage, generation, 393 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:34.319 and food, the clearest Saturnalian practices preserved in the sources 394 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.640 of more of like ascetic ones. Irona says Saturninus taught 395 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.559 that marriage again and generation are from Satan, and that 396 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:46.400 many of his followers abstained from animal food. Hippolytis repeats 397 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:50.160 the same thing. That was even something I covered the 398 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:53.720 Ancretites too, that's dropping in a few weeks. They were 399 00:21:53.799 --> 00:22:00.599 against marriage, against having sex and kids, free. 400 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:02.720 Love, kind of hippie sixty style kind of thing. 401 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.599