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Speaker 2: Did you talk about extreme.
Speaker 1: Ledge? We were guilty from the sun.
Speaker 3: They don't fear the questions, they fear the fuck. So
Speaker 3: we see through slow content, think the racy but sound dart.
Speaker 1: Show what real? Hey, guys, what is happening? What is up? Old?
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Speaker 1: the Prometheus Lins podcast replaced with the conversations are always
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Speaker 1: much much appreciated. Well, guys, welcome back. Man. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to get settled into these lives.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I do want every Sunday at eight pm East and
Speaker 1: Standard like our little live study group, but I want
Speaker 1: to try actually start doing some live interviews at least,
Speaker 1: you know, once a week. And so it reached out
Speaker 1: to my good buddy Nick from the Occult Rejects. I've
Speaker 1: seen a deep dive he did on satrin Ilias and
Speaker 1: Valentinas and these are basically the first Christian heretics. Man,
Speaker 1: so this was kind of up my alley and I've
Speaker 1: not talked about him yet. So I wanted to reach
Speaker 1: out to Nick and had this conversation. So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: kill this music right here. I'm gonna bring up my
Speaker 1: split screen and let's see here if this works out
Speaker 1: for us. Yes, and there is, Nick, Nick, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us, brother, what's going on?
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on to this, Amen.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you sharing your time and your research with us. Man.
Speaker 1: For those that's not familiar with you and your channel,
Speaker 1: or maybe didn't catch the previous episode that we did
Speaker 1: together just kind of give everybody a synopsis of who
Speaker 1: you are, what your channel is, and what you do.
Speaker 3: Brother. Sure sure, yeah, Neick from the Occult Rejects. It's
Speaker 3: a podcast basically focused on a you know, like a
Speaker 3: cultism conspiracy. It was a little bit heavier more on
Speaker 3: the occult and the product past, but I've I've tried
Speaker 3: to take it a little bit more towards the occult
Speaker 3: and trying to, I guess, demystify and show science and
Speaker 3: you know, all that stuff is along as well with it,
Speaker 3: and I do try to just you know, cover cover
Speaker 3: certain topics that I think all kind of are in
Speaker 3: the same area somehow, you know, even sacred architecture, Like
Speaker 3: I dropped an episode today when the Stones sing, you know,
Speaker 3: we're showing like sacred architecture and how the reverberants and
Speaker 3: all that decay time and all this tons of stuff
Speaker 3: and how they're built on purpose to affect you. I
Speaker 3: would say that's still in a sense possibly magic or
Speaker 3: cult science. So I do, you know, cover that stuff
Speaker 3: just as an example. So it's tons of different things.
Speaker 3: I got stuff on that coming out on the eyeball
Speaker 3: and the twelve Crinial nerves. Pilot was I have to
Speaker 3: do with magic watch it. Yeah, tons of tons of stuff,
Speaker 3: but it is heavily a cult, I will put it
Speaker 3: that way. It's it's a lot more on magic and
Speaker 3: all these different types of I guess ways of looking
Speaker 3: at it. Mhm.
Speaker 1: And just from some conversations that we've had and I've
Speaker 1: heard you on your show, you kind of lean more
Speaker 1: into instead of it being so woo woo, there's actually
Speaker 1: some science behind it instead of just missed all you know,
Speaker 1: woo woo.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I think I I that's my opinion. I
Speaker 3: think this. I think those are actually some of the
Speaker 3: secrets of secrets and the mysteries is when you start
Speaker 3: getting into a into physiology and I, you know, so
Speaker 3: you know, in life after death possibly you know. I
Speaker 3: do think that is a you know, the experience of death,
Speaker 3: you know, and there as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the hero's journey. Man. I did a little show
Speaker 1: with Steve here recently talking about that and how, uh
Speaker 1: you know, with the Christian point of view, how we
Speaker 1: look at all the other rituals and different belief systems
Speaker 1: and stuff, how they are so similar and uh, how
Speaker 1: that basically is a u in the Christian viewpoint anyway,
Speaker 1: kind of like a uh like a rubbed rubbed the
Speaker 1: nose and the kind of like spiritual warfare type thing
Speaker 1: going on there.
Speaker 3: I think, uh, when we getting into Valentinis, I think
Speaker 3: they even have something onlike you know, kind of like
Speaker 3: a death think about death.
Speaker 1: Oh awesome, dude, well man, just for uh, I guess
Speaker 1: before we jump into the meat of the matter, I
Speaker 1: guess kind of just give everybody a little bit of groundwork.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: Uh Saturnalia, Uh, Saturnilius and Valentinis.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Who are these guys and and what do they have
Speaker 1: in common?
Speaker 3: I sawt it. I don't even remember how I even
Speaker 3: got into these people originally. There might have been names
Speaker 3: that started coming up when I went into play them,
Speaker 3: because you can start coming across like you know, certain
Speaker 3: Christians or whatever, Catholics in the in like you know,
Speaker 3: around two hundred, you know a d and I think
Speaker 3: I just started coming across like these just sects of
Speaker 3: Christianity that like I never heard of the Satin millions.
Speaker 3: I had heard of Valentina's because he's considered like I believe,
Speaker 3: or that he's a Gnostic saint actually, so I had
Speaker 3: known of him and Hippolytis is actually too, which they
Speaker 3: kind of argue on certain things. So I found that interesting.
Speaker 3: But so I knew who he was, and I think
Speaker 3: more for me, I was just like, wow, there's like
Speaker 3: even for myself, just keeping it real, there were so
Speaker 3: many of these ideas are these or these sects of
Speaker 3: Christianity that I never knew about, And I was like,
Speaker 3: I just thought it was interesting as hell. So I
Speaker 3: started looking into them and I was like, yeah, I
Speaker 3: should cover these things. It's actually pretty interesting, you know,
Speaker 3: and I do think it helps to uh for me,
Speaker 3: it changed, uh. I think it just kind of also
Speaker 3: gave me a different context. I guess like what was
Speaker 3: going on back then, you know, it did seem like
Speaker 3: around that time these people that we will be talking about,
Speaker 3: seems to be when the church I think finally started
Speaker 3: to have to step in and was like started to
Speaker 3: kind of tell like, well, I guess tell people like
Speaker 3: what to believe honestly, like this isn't correct and this
Speaker 3: is you know whatever. So I thought that was interesting
Speaker 3: too that like, and I even have other ones that
Speaker 3: I will be covering too. These aren't just the only ones,
Speaker 3: but these are the ones that have gotten done so far.
Speaker 3: There's probably about two or three other ones that I
Speaker 3: wanted to cover, but it was a big group of
Speaker 3: you know, just at that time, there was a bunch
Speaker 3: of different people that kind of had different ideas on Christianity.
Speaker 3: One thing I do want to add from the ones
Speaker 3: that I'm covering now, just they do still believe in
Speaker 3: God and they do still acknowledge Jesus, so I guess
Speaker 3: that's why they are still under Christianity. I do want
Speaker 3: to just make that clear. They weren't discrediting Jesus or
Speaker 3: God at all. They just seem to look at I
Speaker 3: think the way of getting to an experience with God
Speaker 3: or their look on what this reality was tended to
Speaker 3: be different than what I think most you know, or
Speaker 3: whatever the Catholic Church thought you should be thinking. So
Speaker 3: it was a little bit different than that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's Realian God. I never even heard of neither,
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, Nick, I was familiar with Valentinus,
Speaker 1: and I'd heard people say, you know, basically he believed
Speaker 1: in two gods, like the Old Testament was a separate God,
Speaker 1: and that Jesus came to free us from the dominion
Speaker 1: of this tyrant known as Jahweh and uh, I knew
Speaker 1: that was kind of his baseline, but he was he
Speaker 1: was actually into the Roman Church and was in line
Speaker 1: to be a bishop, and then someone else was selected,
Speaker 1: and then shortly after this that's when he forms his
Speaker 1: own sect. And that's just kind of like the thirty
Speaker 1: thousand foot view that I knew. But I'm not really
Speaker 1: tooking a deep dive on this guy, but especially that
Speaker 1: the Saturnilias guy. I never even heard of him before.
Speaker 1: I've heard of saturnilia you know. That's what on Valentine's Day.
Speaker 3: That's what caught my intention. I was like, oh wait,
Speaker 3: I was like, what was this have to do it?
Speaker 3: I thought maybe they had to do with that, and
Speaker 3: really wasn't. So that's what made me even look into them.
Speaker 3: But yeah, they seem to have and as you'll see
Speaker 3: when I start getting into it, the major people at
Speaker 3: the time that was starting to kind of crack down
Speaker 3: on what I guess Christianity would be mentioned these people.
Speaker 3: I'm just assuming they must have been important enough, especially
Speaker 3: like when you get to the Valentini's, like there is
Speaker 3: proof of like there being two schools, you know, like
Speaker 3: one in Antioch and one in Rome, so I mean,
Speaker 3: obviously it's spreading too, so you know they Another reason
Speaker 3: why I'm covering them is because it seems like if
Speaker 3: these figures are saying something about them, they must have
Speaker 3: been big enough to I guess worry about it. But
Speaker 3: they're big enough to get their attention that they had
Speaker 3: to write about them.
Speaker 1: So I just your point of view too, because I mean,
Speaker 1: we have to be and that's something that I catch
Speaker 1: some flat for from my Christian brothers and sisters. But
Speaker 1: I'll tell people like, we have to be skeptical, we
Speaker 1: have to ask questions, we have to be theologically honest
Speaker 1: because other people that are not believers are going to
Speaker 1: laugh at us, you know what I mean. We have
Speaker 1: to be you know, honest with ourselves. And yeah, when
Speaker 1: you when I listen to you do that reading and
Speaker 1: study there, you'd said, Now, Gods, keep in mind that
Speaker 1: what we have of available, the information about these guys
Speaker 1: are written by people who've seen them as heretics and
Speaker 1: they were their whole mission of writing about them was
Speaker 1: to you know, they had an agenda when they were writing,
Speaker 1: and we have to be honest about that, you know,
Speaker 1: even if we believe, you know, our early church fathers
Speaker 1: were right, but they wrote this with the intent to
Speaker 1: try to make these people look bad. I'm not taking
Speaker 1: up for them. I'm just being theologically this year.
Speaker 3: No, No, that's actually something I was going to mention
Speaker 3: before we got into it too, So thank you for
Speaker 3: covering that. Yeah, that's they'd be considered like hostile writers,
Speaker 3: you know, I think that's the phrase that's used. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they did. It's people who Yeah, and unfortunately that's pretty
Speaker 3: much a lot of how how these people have remembered
Speaker 3: actually is from these people having comments about them and
Speaker 3: kind of giving you a little bit of reasons why
Speaker 3: they didn't agree with them. So yeah, it's pretty much
Speaker 3: for both of these people how exactly I got the
Speaker 3: information I got. But yeah, I don't know if you
Speaker 3: want me to sort of get them too. Like the
Speaker 3: sat of millions or anything.
Speaker 1: Is yours, man, whichever one you want to start with
Speaker 1: and kind of take us through, show us what you've
Speaker 1: dug up.
Speaker 3: Bro all right? Uh again with the like with the
Speaker 3: Satin millions, Uh, you're there. With Valentine's it's a little
Speaker 3: bit different the Saturn millions. You really have nothing left
Speaker 3: behind it them. Ever, any writings again, like this is
Speaker 3: really going by what these other people said. Uh, he's
Speaker 3: a vised through like people like Ironais and Hippolytis who
Speaker 3: thought his teachings were dangerous and wanted to you know,
Speaker 3: kind of get it taken care of or silence it.
Speaker 3: So you have you know, them and a couple other people.
Speaker 3: But again this is a strictly just people's word of
Speaker 3: mouth or what they had to say about this stuff.
Speaker 3: According to them, saturn Saturninus uh is also from Antioch.
Speaker 3: So that's the one thing that like, you really don't
Speaker 3: know much about him, but he is quoted from coming
Speaker 3: from Antioch and living near Daphne. Now, one thing I
Speaker 3: did find interesting is that when you look into that,
Speaker 3: I don't know if it was just because it just
Speaker 3: happened to be close over there, but that town was
Speaker 3: like even considered like a bougie place for people to go,
Speaker 3: like rich people to go to. So I wondered, like
Speaker 3: if they mentioned that because I don't know, for some
Speaker 3: specific reason, who knows, Well, it was just whatever, But.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this guy was praying on the rich and the wealthy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: snake all salesman.
Speaker 3: Yeah you never know, right, that's funny. God, It's like
Speaker 3: one of those like culture see on Netflix now it's
Speaker 3: winning Flames and some shit. Yeah so all right, get
Speaker 3: back to it. I'm sorry, but uh yeah, so he
Speaker 3: was also now Antioch at that time. I just wanted
Speaker 3: also mentioned that that was a mix. It was very
Speaker 3: mixed at that time. You had Greeks, Syrians, Romans, Jews
Speaker 3: all formed part of life in the city. There was
Speaker 3: pagan sanctuary, still imperial ideology, there was a Jewish communal
Speaker 3: life in Christian groups like all together in this area
Speaker 3: at this time. So that probably like, uh, that's probably
Speaker 3: like a good place for people to like maybe pop
Speaker 3: up with new ideas because there's just so much shit
Speaker 3: going on and so many people looking at different yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: And again this was during the second century, so at
Speaker 3: that point, like I was saying before, you have different
Speaker 3: groups they're claiming, you know, different groups claim Jesus, Scripture, revelation,
Speaker 3: and salvation in total different ways. You know, later authors
Speaker 3: such as uh, you know, Justin and Irenaeus and Eusebius, uh,
Speaker 3: you know, record some of that stuff that I look
Speaker 3: get to. The earliest surviving author to mention the Satin
Speaker 3: milions is by Justin Martyr ten On me, and you've
Speaker 3: mentioned that to each other. We knew who he was.
Speaker 1: He's got a first name.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. And in the Dialogue of Typho thirty five,
Speaker 3: Justin says there are many who confess Jesus are the
Speaker 3: There are many who confess Jesus and are called Christians,
Speaker 3: but who teach the doctrines of spirits of error. And
Speaker 3: he explicitly names groups after their founders, including which this
Speaker 3: is another one that will be covering the Martians, Valentinians,
Speaker 3: the Basilidians, which I might cover them too, and the Saturnillians.
Speaker 3: So obviously he was those Maybe those groups all might
Speaker 3: have been like the same amount of you know, same size,
Speaker 3: you know, at least they.
Speaker 1: Had a decent amount of followers for them to you
Speaker 1: know college.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Uh. The main difficulty is
Speaker 3: that Saturday Night. Again, we don't have any of his writings,
Speaker 3: so we have to pretty much go into the criticism.
Speaker 3: The central witness will be pretty much Ironeis, who was
Speaker 3: Bishop of Lyone, writing in the later second century, and
Speaker 3: in his Against Heresies was composed around one a d c.
Speaker 3: And is one of the foundational anti heretical works of
Speaker 3: early Christianity. If anybody's interested, it's called against heresies. Yeah,
Speaker 3: Ironaus is dispensable because without him he wouldn't you wouldn't
Speaker 3: know much really about Saturn nightis at all. He also
Speaker 3: was partisan. Again, he's defending the unity of the Creator
Speaker 3: and the Highest God, the authority of the Hebrew scriptures
Speaker 3: and stuff like that. So iron Aus is not neutral
Speaker 3: and against heresies. One four. Ironaus says Saturnight sat Sataninus
Speaker 3: to it, one father unknown to all, and that the
Speaker 3: world and all things in it were made by a
Speaker 3: company of seven angels. So like he's kind of giving
Speaker 3: us a little bit of an idea of their cosmos,
Speaker 3: you know. And and this cosmos is no longer the
Speaker 3: work of the Highest God. Instead, now there's a supreme
Speaker 3: Father who stands above the world, while the world itself
Speaker 3: belongs to lower makers. Basically you start looking at it
Speaker 3: like that. Iron As then gives sat an Ilian anthropology.
Speaker 3: Humanity he says was made by a juels after the
Speaker 3: appearance of a shining image from above. But the first
Speaker 3: man could not stand upright and instead wiggled on the
Speaker 3: ground until the higher power. Since the spark of life,
Speaker 3: that spark gave vitality and uprightness, and after death it
Speaker 3: returned upward while the body dissolved into the elements.
Speaker 1: So that's that's kind of like we're is that like
Speaker 1: the start of like the Cobbalistic top views. I know,
Speaker 1: the Cobbolists kind of share that, you know, divine spark
Speaker 1: kind of theology, or did they borrow from them? You know,
Speaker 1: which one came first? Well, the Cobblists had to have
Speaker 1: come first, didn't they.
Speaker 3: I mean, I would think so because of coming off
Speaker 3: of you know, their acknowledging the Old Testament, and that's Jewish,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. So, I mean, I'm just
Speaker 3: guessing that that came first, and that this might be influenced,
Speaker 3: though maybe that's just my guess. The Savior and iron
Speaker 3: and Ironaeus summary was He also gives Saturnilian christology the
Speaker 3: Savior and iron As The summary was without birth, without body,
Speaker 3: and without figure, appearing as a man only in appearance.
Speaker 3: So and then he comes kind of with another explosive claim.
Speaker 3: Iron Aa says Saturnineus taught that the God of the
Speaker 3: Jews was one of the angels that breaks the continuity
Speaker 3: between the God of Israel and the father of proclaimed
Speaker 3: by Christ now, so like he's even you know. Ironaus
Speaker 3: also says Saturninus divided humanity into wicked and good. He
Speaker 3: held that demons aided the wicked, treated marriage and generation
Speaker 3: as Satanic, reported that many followers abstained from animal food,
Speaker 3: and said that some prophecies came from the world making angels,
Speaker 3: and others from Satan. So the first major doctrinal claim
Speaker 3: is the distinct between the highest God and the makers
Speaker 3: of the world. Iron As says Saturninus to one father
Speaker 3: unknown to all, and that the world and everything again
Speaker 3: was made by angels. Hippolytis confirms that as well as
Speaker 3: saying that that's what they said, so you even have
Speaker 3: Hippolytis confirming that. Iron A says the angels made man
Speaker 3: after the likeness of a higher image, but could not
Speaker 3: make him stand upright like we said before. Again, he
Speaker 3: wiggled on the ground until the higher power sent the
Speaker 3: spark of life that raised him up and gave him vitality.
Speaker 3: Hippolytis preserves the same pattern and describes the gift as
Speaker 3: a scintillation of life, and after death, the higher element
Speaker 3: returns upward while the body dissolves into the material order.
Speaker 3: The same thing. Hippolytis is also just saying that's what
Speaker 3: they said. Iron A says, yeah, no, no, no, go no,
Speaker 3: you're totally right. Uh. Platonism, I mean my opinion, believe
Speaker 3: it or not, especially you know when it comes to
Speaker 3: origin and a couple other people see in Augustine. Just
Speaker 3: my opinion. I do think the influenced Christianity. So I
Speaker 3: do think they're in there like Platonism isn't isn't it.
Speaker 3: It's just my opinion.
Speaker 1: Because they had the whole view of physicality and spirituality.
Speaker 1: You know, man was two and one, and you know,
Speaker 1: basically the energy or the spirit life force continued on.
Speaker 3: Then you have like the four world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of similarity there.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, I would even say, which is interesting
Speaker 3: because a lot of Platonists didn't like Gnostics, but a
Speaker 3: lot of Gnostics seem to kind of use like Platonism
Speaker 3: or Neoplatonism and this stuff, but then added a little
Speaker 3: bit of me kind of like these people. I wouldn't
Speaker 3: necessarily say, I mean it even came up when I
Speaker 3: was looking into him that like the call Satinnelion's gnostic.
Speaker 3: It's not like it's kind of that, but not fully,
Speaker 3: but you know, they're kind of close to with Valentinians,
Speaker 3: I would totally says the coffee.
Speaker 1: It was painting the rod brush. But that's probably why
Speaker 1: the Platonists, you know, Platonists kind of looked at them
Speaker 1: in a raw way because it's like, hey, you're taking
Speaker 1: our ideas and you're perverting it and twisting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was Dad was Actually the one
Speaker 3: big thing with Plotinus that he had a problem with, uh,
Speaker 3: with some of the Gnostics is that they were humanizing
Speaker 3: archetypes that weren't supposed to be humanized, and then like
Speaker 3: it kind of like he thought of like lust the
Speaker 3: whole thing, you know what I'm saying, like now you're
Speaker 3: going to turn like you know, Sophia into like like
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's just certain things that they were
Speaker 3: putting onto like gods or making them human that it's
Speaker 3: like that we're not talking about it that though, like
Speaker 3: it's not informed. So that was kind of one of
Speaker 3: their reasons they didn't agree with them. Iron As also
Speaker 3: again yeah, I said, uh, Saturday Ninnis taught that the
Speaker 3: god of the Jews was one of the angels. A
Speaker 3: Hippolyotia preserved that as well, who else forgot where it
Speaker 3: was when I left? Oh right, Yeah, there's two kinds
Speaker 3: of humans in conflict. Irona says Saturninus claimed there was
Speaker 3: two kind of men were formed by the angels, one
Speaker 3: wicked and one good. He also says that demons aided
Speaker 3: the wicked and the savior from the destruction of evil
Speaker 3: men and demons and for the salvation of good and
Speaker 3: Hippolytis confirms that structure. Then when he came to marriage, generation,
Speaker 3: and food, the clearest Saturnalian practices preserved in the sources
Speaker 3: of more of like ascetic ones. Irona says Saturninus taught
Speaker 3: that marriage again and generation are from Satan, and that
Speaker 3: many of his followers abstained from animal food. Hippolytis repeats
Speaker 3: the same thing. That was even something I covered the
Speaker 3: Ancretites too, that's dropping in a few weeks. They were
Speaker 3: against marriage, against having sex and kids, free.
Speaker 1: Love, kind of hippie sixty style kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Just everybody slip with everybody or no they actually think,
Speaker 3: which I've I've had some thoughts myself that the whole
Speaker 3: problem is being in the flesh. So if you keep
Speaker 3: on having kids, what you're doing is keeping the prison over.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so they're adding to the prison planet. So
Speaker 1: therefore that's wick.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's where they're not trying to reproduce and
Speaker 3: make any more abominations. I guess in their mind the
Speaker 3: clearest sat Yeah again they they Irene said Saturninus taught
Speaker 3: that marriage and generation are from Satan, and that many
Speaker 3: of his followers abstained for animal food. And again Hippolytis
Speaker 3: dude confirm that celibacy is not simply disciplined in that framework,
Speaker 3: it's refusal. So it's just like your abstinence from animal
Speaker 3: food is not simply dietary rigor. It's part of a
Speaker 3: broader region that's presently structed. Yeah, there's also there was
Speaker 3: also a later echo of this in the Heresies one eight.
Speaker 3: Irene says the Ancretites sprang from Saturn, Saturninus, and Martian,
Speaker 3: and he associates them with opposition to marriage and abstinence
Speaker 3: from animal food. That does not make the Anchrotites identical
Speaker 3: with the set of millions, but it shows that later
Speaker 3: Christian memory linked Saturninus to a continuing set of current.
Speaker 1: Different breakoff sect Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe it. Or now when I when I
Speaker 3: covied this, I think that's when I found out about
Speaker 3: the Anchrotites, and that's what made me cover them. It's
Speaker 3: really funny. I was like what I was like, no me, no,
Speaker 3: you know, no wine, dude, they were taking they were
Speaker 3: putting water in the in the in the cup. They
Speaker 3: weren't even using wine. Oh wow, Yeah that was strict. Yeah.
Speaker 3: They were saying that that was too much drinking, like
Speaker 3: alcohol was like too much pleasure for the human. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, did you do a little deeper research on I
Speaker 1: know you had mentioned that they didn't believe in the
Speaker 1: physicality of Jesus, that he was basically like a spirit
Speaker 1: or ghost or apparition that came. Uh so who was
Speaker 1: he and in their viewpoint, was he just a prophet
Speaker 1: or a messenger of one of these angel groups of
Speaker 1: the seven or like did you find out what they
Speaker 1: actually thought of Jesus.
Speaker 3: The most part, it seems like somebody that was kind
Speaker 3: of like a figure of like breaking us out of
Speaker 3: the system like friends.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So yeah, basically, yeah, they looked at him as Neil.
Speaker 3: That's that's a pretty good ways how I would say.
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's who first John was actually talking
Speaker 1: about them, because which I know you said, gnostic and idiots.
Speaker 1: That's a very broad brush to kind of paint, you know,
Speaker 1: just a couple of little characteristics on whole sex. But uh,
Speaker 1: In first John talks about anyone who claims Christ didn't
Speaker 1: come in the flesh, yeah, is of an anti Christ spirit.
Speaker 1: And so these guys are saying, oh, no, he wasn't
Speaker 1: here in the flesh, you know, he was you know, spirit.
Speaker 1: I wonder if maybe that's who during this time frame
Speaker 1: John what was kind of calling out they?
Speaker 3: I know, I think the Valentinians actually use John's book
Speaker 3: like they took that ship pretty deep. They actually went
Speaker 3: into his stuff a lot. I do know. I could
Speaker 3: be confused with the set of Millions or the Valentinians,
Speaker 3: but I do know that it might be the Valentinians
Speaker 3: because they even say that Jesus was like so pure
Speaker 3: he could like eat and like he didn't even ship.
Speaker 3: That's weird thing. Yeah, but you were saying that like
Speaker 3: he would come in form when he had to, but
Speaker 3: would also could also go in spirit. So it was
Speaker 3: almost like the guy did both. So we might get
Speaker 3: a little bit more into believe it or not. I'm
Speaker 3: so confused a little bit between these guys and Valentinas
Speaker 3: because they.
Speaker 1: Kind of cross a lot.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: One thing that actually got me looking into Valentinis, uh
Speaker 1: to begin with, what little bit that idea was, uh,
Speaker 1: which I'm not on x much. I'm trying to integrate
Speaker 1: into that platform and be a little bit more active
Speaker 1: on there. But I had seen a friend of mine,
Speaker 1: Derek Gilbert, was getting into some debates with this other
Speaker 1: guy named Israel Anderson, and I've kind of looked at
Speaker 1: his stuff, but I've not like really took a super
Speaker 1: deep dive. But he has viewpoints that's kind of similar
Speaker 1: to these two gentlemen we're talking about today. Israel Anderson,
Speaker 1: he claims that, yes, there was in fact two gods
Speaker 1: of the Bible the Old Testament. Yahweh was one of
Speaker 1: the sons of God that rebelled, and he was a
Speaker 1: wicked you know god, and he's like you look at
Speaker 1: the Old Testament and he was killing people and he
Speaker 1: was a jealous God and all this other kind of
Speaker 1: stuff he said, And he said, Jesus came, he said
Speaker 1: to dethrone the evil Yahuey and bringing them into a
Speaker 1: new covenant and save them. And he said, Jesus never
Speaker 1: says Yahweh he says, when you go through the New Testament,
Speaker 1: he just keeps saying my father. He said, he never
Speaker 1: identifies his father as yahweh, So therefore, you know, he
Speaker 1: kind of uses that as his kind of proof texts
Speaker 1: and stuff. But Derek had mentioned this is nothing but
Speaker 1: a repackaging of Valentinas, and I was like, well, who
Speaker 1: is that? I gotta find out who this is really.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, he had the Demiurge and that was he
Speaker 3: pretty much said the same thing that like, you know,
Speaker 3: Jesus was even like yeah, coming back to he was
Speaker 3: even like something like the neo for that, and that
Speaker 3: the Demiurge was like it was the lower God, but
Speaker 3: it was like it was because he was so this
Speaker 3: god was ignorant to the divine. It didn't even know
Speaker 3: that there was something greater than itself. And that's why
Speaker 3: it's fucked up. You know, they acknowledged that there was
Speaker 3: something greater than that. But the problem is is that
Speaker 3: God that's controlling this world thinks it's fucking God when
Speaker 3: it's not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's basically Valentinus is uh you know, when
Speaker 3: we get to it. Yeah, yeah, Now, another witness that
Speaker 3: we have, which I think might have been some of
Speaker 3: you even know who he was. Ucbius his role is
Speaker 3: a little bit different. He does not give us a
Speaker 3: fresh saturn Alian doctrine at the level of irnas, but
Speaker 3: what he gives us UH is a later Christian historical arrangement.
Speaker 3: In UH Ecclesiastical History four seven, Ucbia says that from
Speaker 3: Menander came two leaders of heresy. Is that to Ninus
Speaker 3: in Antiochi and by birth and about Basil Bacilidis, fucking
Speaker 3: sorry and fucking that world.
Speaker 1: I get tongue twisted to with them big ancient words.
Speaker 3: I had it down at one point I even listened
Speaker 3: to how to say it nice and Saturday Ninus established
Speaker 3: schools of heresy in Syria. So they even make that claim.
Speaker 3: That shows how later church and reworked rival teachings were
Speaker 3: not only refuted, they were organized into lineages. Orthodoxy was
Speaker 3: narrated as continuity. So Eusebius is useful not primarily as
Speaker 3: an independent doctoral source, but as a witness to how
Speaker 3: later Christianity remembered and arranged Saturn Ninus. So you had
Speaker 3: Simon Meinander and Saturn Ninus basically giving like a lineage
Speaker 3: later heresiology often places saturn Ninus after Menander, who who
Speaker 3: is himself placed after Simon Maggus. Eusebius preserves that broad sequence,
Speaker 3: and Ironaus also says Saturday Ninus taught like Menander in
Speaker 3: important respects. So we have that then. Yeah, from that standpoint,
Speaker 3: that standpoint of emerging orthodoxy, Saturninus threatened the whole structure
Speaker 3: basically of Christian belief with all these things that I
Speaker 3: have mentioned. That that's what they believed and that's why
Speaker 3: they got into them. But besides that believe it, and
Speaker 3: that's about really well there is to get out of
Speaker 3: people's mentions of Satanus.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was before the Catholic you know church
Speaker 1: had really formed a foundation as an orthodoxy they were
Speaker 1: trying to but this was before the sixty six book
Speaker 1: canon was compiled, Wasn't it? Am I wrong?
Speaker 3: Was this? Oh? Yeah? No, yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think this was possibly what's sixty of what eighty
Speaker 3: or maybe Valentinis is that. But I do know with
Speaker 3: Valentinis they started using different more gospels or something that
Speaker 3: they were including gospels that they didn't include, so at
Speaker 3: least like that might have already been taken care.
Speaker 1: Of Yeah, see, I thought that I've heard that. You know,
Speaker 1: there was different sects like Saturnilius and Valentinus and those
Speaker 1: other guys you had mentioned too, all these different kind
Speaker 1: of sects, and they were seeing this as just straight heresy,
Speaker 1: and there was so much doctor in there and all
Speaker 1: these different you know, versions of Christianity. So therefore they
Speaker 1: had orthodox. They had to have that counsel at three
Speaker 1: twenty five and decide what was had the stamp of
Speaker 1: approval and what didn't and actually form this foundation of
Speaker 1: what you know, Christianity was essentially to them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, even I think with uh when we
Speaker 3: gan too set in Valentinus because of the Book of John,
Speaker 3: the way they looked at it was different that somebody
Speaker 3: ended up having to make some sort of like statements
Speaker 3: saying that like, if there was anything deep in here,
Speaker 3: it would have been cele ready because they were saying
Speaker 3: that Valentinas in them were looking too much into it,
Speaker 3: like they're looking for shit that isn't there and finding
Speaker 3: I guess so they Yeah, so at that point, you know,
Speaker 3: obviously those things might have been either set on or
Speaker 3: it was a reason for them to start saying, oh
Speaker 3: I hold off befo, We're all going to start having
Speaker 3: different opinions now with the same book. This is going
Speaker 3: to be a fucking issue. I guess you know what
Speaker 3: I'm saying. Maybe they at least influence influenced kind of them,
Speaker 3: like maybe you know, stamp of approval of what this
Speaker 3: book means.
Speaker 1: That's funny we said it. They were like, no, if
Speaker 1: there's anything deeper, they would have found it because they
Speaker 1: went totally off the deep end with the esoteric stuff.
Speaker 3: But all right, but yeah, if you want to get
Speaker 3: into Valentina's now, yeah, man, go right ahead. All right.
Speaker 3: So again we don't have a neat biography of him either.
Speaker 3: We do have a little bit of stuff in him.
Speaker 3: We do not have, you know, the family archive or
Speaker 3: any memoirs or daily life habbits or anything like that.
Speaker 3: But again we do have what other people are saying.
Speaker 3: We're probably going to be mentioning the same same people
Speaker 3: as last one. And one of the most important lines
Speaker 3: we have is from iron Ais and he says, for
Speaker 3: Valentinus came to Rome in the time of Hygienus, flourished
Speaker 3: under pious and remained until anecetus. So that's giving you
Speaker 3: an idea of when he was in Rome, and that
Speaker 3: was in Against Heresies three four. Yeah, so it gives
Speaker 3: you a good idea of when he was there. And
Speaker 3: again then we'll be talking about mid second century Christian world.
Speaker 3: And again at that time you had house churches, traveling teachers,
Speaker 3: scriptural interpreters, rival intellectuals, ritual communities and all they're all
Speaker 3: competing to have.
Speaker 1: It was the wild list of Christian Honestly.
Speaker 3: That's what That was another reason why I even got
Speaker 3: into this because I had no idea and I was like,
Speaker 3: oh what. I was like, Oh, I got to look
Speaker 3: into this shit, and like you're saying it was the
Speaker 3: wild West, Yeah, cho fucking wild. It's like interesting to
Speaker 3: I guess even think of going back then at that
Speaker 3: time and like being a fly on the wall and
Speaker 3: look at it all these like just different I don't know.
Speaker 3: It would almost be like now where you like watch
Speaker 3: not saying that you or other or I do, but
Speaker 3: you get like certain podcasts that like those people are wrong,
Speaker 3: we got the right answer. It's like this is so
Speaker 3: cheesy and so I don't.
Speaker 1: Know that all the time. It's like dude, no, you
Speaker 1: hear me throw up possibilities, you know, or Yo, this
Speaker 1: is my opinion. And I tell people out there, if
Speaker 1: you find somebody that says, no, it's like this or
Speaker 1: I got it all figured it out, maybe you better run.
Speaker 1: That's in a cult.
Speaker 3: Yeah no real, all right, yeah, So the Roman timeline
Speaker 3: from iron As, that gives us an idea. Then we'll
Speaker 3: have people like iron As again, Tutilian, Hippolytis, and Epiphanius
Speaker 3: who uh who kind of hated what Valentinians represented, but
Speaker 3: still preserve details were trying to destroy his credibility, and
Speaker 3: then we will have we do have some fragments, and
Speaker 3: we will even get into the Nagamadi again Clement of Alexander.
Speaker 3: Alexandria preserves one of the most kind of explosive identity
Speaker 3: claims in the whole story, and he says, likewise, they
Speaker 3: alleged that Valentinus was a hero of Theudis and what
Speaker 3: he was the pupil of Paul and that was in
Speaker 3: Stromautas seven seventeen. So what is that?
Speaker 1: What is the Stramata? I'm not familiar with that.
Speaker 3: It was one of the books. It was a book
Speaker 3: that uh, clementing up Alexandria, okay, like making it a
Speaker 3: lot of times you have these people that are like
Speaker 3: kind of making like claims believe it or not. I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever like looked into it,
Speaker 3: especially with the cultists, but like they almost kind of
Speaker 3: put out like they put out pamphlets or books to
Speaker 3: like kind of ship talk of the motherfuckers. It's kind
Speaker 3: of funny. I mean, I'm just keeping it real. It's
Speaker 3: like today it would be like it would be like
Speaker 3: what we would do in a tweet. It's like these
Speaker 3: people had to write in a book and throw out
Speaker 3: into the public. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I like that ancient eggs.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, But no, a lot of
Speaker 3: times you'll just like these guys will like kind of
Speaker 3: like I think when they're trying to preserve Christianity or whatever,
Speaker 3: they'll they'll use like other people and you know, to
Speaker 3: try to I guess, get a point across. So I
Speaker 3: think I think this is kind of like one of
Speaker 3: those kind of like what Iron is or those other
Speaker 3: people were saying, you know, heresies and all that. Now, again,
Speaker 3: this is the same time where Martian is active. Justin
Speaker 3: Martyr is active again. Other named groups were active like
Speaker 3: before that I mentioned before, and in dialogue with Typho
Speaker 3: thirty five, he says, some are called Martians, someone called Valentinians,
Speaker 3: and some are saturn Ilians. I know I mentioned that before,
Speaker 3: but again it's because they're both in here, so again
Speaker 3: you know, they're all mentioned together, so they must have been,
Speaker 3: I guess important. And then Tertillian gives us one more
Speaker 3: latest stories about Valentinus. He says, Valentinis expected to become
Speaker 3: bishop because he was distinguished in genius and eloquence, and
Speaker 3: when another man got the position, that Valentinis broke away
Speaker 3: in bitterness.
Speaker 1: So like you had mentioned that before, say, distinguished, I
Speaker 1: think of the curly mustaches and the.
Speaker 3: Rab The first time I read that, I actually pictured
Speaker 3: that munstays. That was pretty funny, like an old gray.
Speaker 1: One, a distinguished gentle man.
Speaker 3: And the problem with also too with Valentina. It's just
Speaker 3: like the other guy, Martian, because they also there again,
Speaker 3: they were using Christian scripture that was like accepted, but
Speaker 3: they were like radically looking at it differently. So that
Speaker 3: was like another problem because then they're like, well, now
Speaker 3: you know which books counts, which interpretation is a legitimate
Speaker 3: who has the right to teach? You know, it's all
Speaker 3: gonna's suck getting crazy. And then that's when iron As
Speaker 3: has this famous famous line, it is not possible that
Speaker 3: the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number
Speaker 3: than they are. And that was in against Heresies, and
Speaker 3: that was in three eleven. So I guess I don't
Speaker 3: know if maybe at that time, like I said that,
Speaker 3: you know, some parts were already kind of settled on,
Speaker 3: because I do know, like even when it comes to narcissism,
Speaker 3: I mean, you have the Gospel of Thomas, you have
Speaker 3: the Gospel of Mary. Those aren't included in the Bible.
Speaker 3: So I'm assuming maybe it's like something like this that's
Speaker 3: situation with this, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Because you got all these different interpretations. You know, you
Speaker 1: got people to three years later rotten their own scrolls
Speaker 1: and texts and interpretations and a boring their you know,
Speaker 1: sex and belief books and scrolls.
Speaker 3: Yep. And then uh, and then we go into a
Speaker 3: little bit of their system. At the top of the
Speaker 3: system stands the pleroma, the fullness. Irenaeus says. The Valentinians
Speaker 3: taught that above the visible world there is an ineffable,
Speaker 3: preexistent depth, often called bithys, associated with silence. From that
Speaker 3: hidden depth comes an ordered unfolding of paired divine realities,
Speaker 3: mind and truth, word in life, humanity in church. So
Speaker 3: now this is like a major shift because is not
Speaker 3: imagined as a solitary ruler simply making it, you know,
Speaker 3: by the world. So now it's you know, it's kind
Speaker 3: of changing that a little bit and brought a Valentinian
Speaker 3: pattern Sophia that comes in that is wisdom, and it
Speaker 3: becomes associated with disturbance, desire, and rupture at the edge
Speaker 3: of the divine order. The deeper point is not a
Speaker 3: goddess made a mistake. The deeper point is that reality
Speaker 3: itself becomes marked by deficiency, fracture, and instability. This is
Speaker 3: why Valentinian stuff feels more like a you know, kind
Speaker 3: of like a cosmic trauma than a morality detail. And
Speaker 3: it is you know, and it's also like some people
Speaker 3: will look at it that they're saying the first problem
Speaker 3: is in bad behavior. It could be that reality is
Speaker 3: the problem at.
Speaker 1: First, and then I can like an imperfect creation. It
Speaker 1: even kind of like mirrors and echoes of ancient Sumerians
Speaker 1: and Acadians when you look at their like create stories,
Speaker 1: how they have the anuma a leash. It was, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: these gods and this chaos dragon Timot, and they went
Speaker 1: at it and had war. And basically a lot of
Speaker 1: people think that's allegory for the planets, you know, smashing
Speaker 1: and you know that kind of whole cosmic creation allegory.
Speaker 3: That's a pretty it's interesting. Yeah. Then iron As also
Speaker 3: reports that matter that you know from them, matter itself
Speaker 3: is tied to disturb the motion. He says, the Valentinians
Speaker 3: trace material existence to fear, grief, perpex, perplexity, perplexity and
Speaker 3: related passions. And then they say earth, water, air, and fire.
Speaker 3: These are described as emerging from disturbed conditions.
Speaker 1: So imperfection in the spiritual realm creates physicality kind.
Speaker 3: Of yeah, yes, yeah. Then comes one of the most
Speaker 3: offensive Valentinian moves from Lado or Theodoxie. The Demiurge, the
Speaker 3: lower Creator, according to ironeis this being fashions the visible cosmos,
Speaker 3: but does so in ignorance. The Demiurge stinks he made
Speaker 3: everything by himself, but he does not know the higher
Speaker 3: divine realities beyond him. Irone says, the Valentinians put the
Speaker 3: scriptural declaration into the Demiurge's mouth. And that is I
Speaker 3: am God, and besides me, there is no one else.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: In the Hebrew Bible that line signals divine sovereignty, and
Speaker 3: the Valentinian retelling it becomes proof of cosmic ignorance, cosmic
Speaker 3: ignorance a lower rule, or mistaking limited jurisdiction for absolute reality.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: And also they have so many microcosms, you know how
Speaker 1: like I've looked into some of their beliefs that the planet,
Speaker 1: since the map of the cosmos kind of mirrors that.
Speaker 1: The body, you know, the heart and the organs and
Speaker 1: stuff and all that kind of you old microcosms, you know,
Speaker 1: like the Russian doll, a doll within a doll within
Speaker 1: a doll kind of theology there. Uh, that that kind
Speaker 1: of even mirrors that because if you look at it
Speaker 1: from their point of view, like man who is mankind? Uh,
Speaker 1: we are the fish that can't see the water. But
Speaker 1: outside of the water, there's a fishman with a pole
Speaker 1: and a worm trying to catch us and pull us
Speaker 1: out of our known world. But the fish thinks they're
Speaker 1: the the only thing so like us, you know, and we, uh,
Speaker 1: if we don't have a faith belief anyway, we're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we we're the ultimate beings and there's no one above us.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a that's it, but it's our ignorance
Speaker 1: because there, you know, there's another Russian doll that we
Speaker 1: are inside of.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you see them guys talking about that. There's I
Speaker 1: think they're smoking dope, but because they look like they're stone.
Speaker 1: But they're sitting there talking and he's like, a man,
Speaker 1: do you think of few ish can see water? Bron, Yeah,
Speaker 1: a fish can't see water, bro.
Speaker 3: Imagine they he am like, how does it even know
Speaker 3: that's water? Yeah, that's yes, which.
Speaker 1: I've seen another short too. It was a it was
Speaker 1: a Christian but he was talking to a guy and
Speaker 1: I don't know if he made this up or he
Speaker 1: had stolen, but man, it was really good. But it
Speaker 1: was two twin brothers in a womb and they're talking
Speaker 1: and uh, the one says, do you think that there's
Speaker 1: a life after birth? And the other one's like, no,
Speaker 1: there is no life after birth. You just go into nothingness.
Speaker 1: And he's like, well, what if there's something out there,
Speaker 1: you know, where we can walk and talk and we
Speaker 1: don't need, you know, this umbilical cord anymore, And we
Speaker 1: can eat with our mouths. And then the other one's like, no,
Speaker 1: that's impass uh. Our legs are not strong enough to
Speaker 1: stand on their own and walk. And how we eat
Speaker 1: without this umbilical cord. This is how we get fed,
Speaker 1: you know. No, you know, that's not how it works.
Speaker 1: He's like, but maybe it's just different than what we
Speaker 1: can imagine here, and he keeps going on, you know,
Speaker 1: and he's like, sometimes I can hear Mother, and he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you believe in mother? Where is she? I don't see her,
Speaker 1: So she's not here, and he's like, we are in her.
Speaker 1: She's everywhere, you know. And so it was basically another
Speaker 1: like microcosm of you know, the next chapter of life.
Speaker 1: And so it's reels pretty good though of course I've
Speaker 1: done a really crappy job of explaining it there. But
Speaker 1: it's a it's a good video.
Speaker 3: I like that. That's really interesting. That's a really good
Speaker 3: but that's a really good way to put it though.
Speaker 3: That's pretty funny. Iron As even says the Demiurge created
Speaker 3: seven heavens and that the Valentinians linked him to the Hebdomod,
Speaker 3: which is kind of like that comes from Platonism. And neoplatonism.
Speaker 3: It's a little bit like a kind of like an
Speaker 3: intellect or sometimes the arcons maybe while his mother was
Speaker 3: linked to the ogdode. The number of symbolism matter is
Speaker 3: that is not a decorative myth. It is a map.
Speaker 3: It's you know, kind of gets a structured cosmos, kind
Speaker 3: of gets in there. Ironaeus, as the Valentinian, spoke of
Speaker 3: three kinds of humanity, spiritual, psychic, and material. He even
Speaker 3: said they linked these symbolically with biblical figures like kine
Speaker 3: Able and set. Some are oriented towards spirit, some are
Speaker 3: toward soul and intermediate formation, some toward matter and entanglement.
Speaker 3: And then that gives the system explanatory kind of reasons
Speaker 3: for why some awaken quickly, why some need teaching, and
Speaker 3: why some remain closed. They kind of saw, which I
Speaker 3: get with this, that sorts the range danger of like elitism,
Speaker 3: you know, once you sidy kind of dividing humanity into
Speaker 3: that or you know what, I don't know, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe person's being labeled to something that's not correct. You know,
Speaker 3: it's probably so now we get into uh John, John
Speaker 3: is the battlefield. Uh John, It speaks you know, in
Speaker 3: my opinion, for them, you know, because it kind of
Speaker 3: gets into light and darkness above them below a little bit,
Speaker 3: you know, and stuff like that. I could see this
Speaker 3: as being like a good book for people like his
Speaker 3: mother start trying to mind fuck or look into for
Speaker 3: maybe symbolism. So but Irene says that the followers of
Speaker 3: Valentinus made copious use of John to illustrate their doctrines.
Speaker 3: The Valentinians were in a not outside the Christian textual world,
Speaker 3: holding some alien book. They were basically again, this is
Speaker 3: a thing. They were using a gospel that everybody else
Speaker 3: was using, but saying something completely different. Because you know,
Speaker 3: when once scripture becomes late, authority starts moving towards you know,
Speaker 3: who's the correct interpreter and this and that, this is
Speaker 3: where I'm getting that. The church though it was a problem.
Speaker 3: So but uh. And then also herak Leon. He was
Speaker 3: associated with the Valentinian school, you know, and he is
Speaker 3: often treated as the earliest known earliest commentators on a
Speaker 3: New Testament text, and he was especially big on John.
Speaker 3: His commentary does not survive independently, but Origin quotes and
Speaker 3: argues with him enough that large portions of his thought
Speaker 3: can still be kind of put together origin even preserves
Speaker 3: one remarkable example where herac Cleon distinguishes between world voice
Speaker 3: and sound in relation to John the Baptist and the
Speaker 3: prophetic order. One leads toward kind of like hidden structure,
Speaker 3: initiation in a recognition, and metaphysical death. Obviously, the other
Speaker 3: one that the church kind of has is public continuity,
Speaker 3: apostolic tradition and rule of faith, stuff that's already shared
Speaker 3: by the church. So you basically have the same gospel,
Speaker 3: same talking about Christ, but totally different, you know. Versions.
Speaker 3: Then to get into a little bit with ritual iron
Speaker 3: as he attacks on a guy named Marcus who is
Speaker 3: associated with the Valatinians, and he preserves material that shows
Speaker 3: how it was also kind of in ritual space. He
Speaker 3: describes Marcus as a ritual performer who consecrates cups, invokes powers,
Speaker 3: and produces the impression that divine presence is visibly descending
Speaker 3: into the right. So you know that guy is the right.
Speaker 3: A right would probably be like more of like I
Speaker 3: would say, like right would be used because you're actually
Speaker 3: doing a ritual okay, like.
Speaker 1: A right okay, rich what okay? In never mind, I
Speaker 1: was thinking like maybe he's that a left hemisphere right
Speaker 1: hemisphere or right hand.
Speaker 3: Left hand, Yeah, yeah, yeah, some more kind of like
Speaker 3: you know, let's say he could be like calling you know,
Speaker 3: the presence of God or Jesus into like you know
Speaker 3: the cup or you know some shit like that.
Speaker 1: Who knows, that's another year.
Speaker 3: Chris the Road, Yes, charging probably Yeah.
Speaker 1: Then we have the guy what's his name, that doctor
Speaker 1: that wrote that book The Road to eleusis uh I
Speaker 1: can't remember his name, but he's the one that come
Speaker 1: up with the word inthogen. Instead of saying drug, you know,
Speaker 1: for LSD and different mind altering drugs, he he coined
Speaker 1: the word inthogens, which means for a god or spirit
Speaker 1: to endwell a person. So people took these to try
Speaker 1: to get embodied by an external force, so they called
Speaker 1: it an inthogen. He said that he thought the word
Speaker 1: drug was just a dirty word, so he wanted to
Speaker 1: come up with a better word.
Speaker 3: Dan to Nagamadi, there is like a little thing in
Speaker 3: there that does kind of like help. You'll get that
Speaker 3: point across with the mark is. There is a tractake
Speaker 3: called the Valentinian Exposition in Codex eleven and is followed
Speaker 3: by liturgical readings scholars identify as dealing with anointing, baptism,
Speaker 3: and the Eucharist, so you know, it's kind of kind
Speaker 3: of goes into ritualistic stuff. Then, because of Roman uh
Speaker 3: the roads leading out of Rome were lined with tombs
Speaker 3: and inscriptions, and there's one called the Via Latina and
Speaker 3: it was one of the great funerary corridors where grief, memory, poetry, theology,
Speaker 3: and identity were made public. And here we get some
Speaker 3: kind of like they think is evidence connected to Valentinian
Speaker 3: Christianity and is one of the major inscriptions is the
Speaker 3: epitaph known as Flavius Soap, and some people have argued
Speaker 3: that it belongs again in a second century Christian context
Speaker 3: and was likely commissioned by Valentinian sympathizers. And the inscription
Speaker 3: and food anointed in the bats of Christ with incorruptible
Speaker 3: holy oil, and they're showing that in the same sacramental
Speaker 3: and ontological vocabulary we see we saw in the ritual materials.
Speaker 3: We have again oil, anointing and corruption Christ now kind
Speaker 3: of showing up in the funerary memory. Then we have
Speaker 3: the NCEE one fifty six, and that is like another
Speaker 3: important inscription from this orbit. Some thought it was baptismal.
Speaker 3: Other also say it could be funerary using bridal chamber
Speaker 3: imagery to frame death itself as passage into ultimate union,
Speaker 3: which again you're coming up with.
Speaker 1: The whole idea of test inple aroma. Talk about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, then we have somebody as one other person that
Speaker 3: is stressed that the bridal chamber is kind of like
Speaker 3: multi symbolic and Valentinian material. It can mean like you know,
Speaker 3: a few things, but they do think that it is
Speaker 3: a is focusing on the consummation of death and return. Tertullian,
Speaker 3: I actually think you might have known who it was
Speaker 3: to I think we both texted. Actually gives us one
Speaker 3: of the clearest, uh kind of like snapshots of this.
Speaker 3: He says that the Valentinians had departed in some ways
Speaker 3: from their founder. Oh and this this is showing how
Speaker 3: that it's spread, but their origin remained. And then Tertullian
Speaker 3: gives names like Ptolemy, Heracleon, Secundus, Marcus who I just
Speaker 3: mentioned before with the ritual stuff, Theotemis and uh Axionicus.
Speaker 3: Heracleon is the exegy, Ptolemy is the teacher, Marcus is
Speaker 3: the ritual dramatist. Theotemus seems to be concerned with the
Speaker 3: images of the law, and uh Axionicus is associated with Antioch,
Speaker 3: and then that kind of shows that there's an Antioch connection,
Speaker 3: shows Valentinian identity.
Speaker 1: Was not just influenced there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, which is interesting because again, like we were saying,
Speaker 3: how like the Saturnilia were kind of put you know,
Speaker 3: together with them and maybe some you know, some common
Speaker 3: things that was from antheoch mh. So you wonder if
Speaker 3: like you know, maybe they're even heard each other or
Speaker 3: past each other.
Speaker 1: Oh, you know, they did influenced each other in some way.
Speaker 1: And that's a lot of Christians today don't even realize,
Speaker 1: like some of the etymology of of the words, uh,
Speaker 1: which I'm a big nerd like that with they tell
Speaker 1: a story. I mean if you look into some of
Speaker 1: these root words and etymology of words, you see how
Speaker 1: they these ideas travel and they morph over time. And
Speaker 1: uh that Greek turn, I mean that that's christos and
Speaker 1: uh you could even be used as like a verb.
Speaker 1: You know, you are christing someone, So you are you know,
Speaker 1: anointing or you know, putting oil or water or you
Speaker 1: know that's uh. You see on movies people have a
Speaker 1: like a ah, shoot, Forced Gump and he finally gets
Speaker 1: that boat the Jenny, you know, he breaks that bottle
Speaker 1: on the boat, you know, Chris, and he's christing you know,
Speaker 1: the vote.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they even did that, believe it or not in
Speaker 3: the Oto whenever they did U certain rituals I think, yeah,
Speaker 3: may not from Beiden for the Gnostic Mass I can remember,
Speaker 3: but I think if they ever did like a ritual,
Speaker 3: which they didn't do too many, they had certain ones
Speaker 3: for like the Book of the Law, and then a
Speaker 3: couple other ones. You got anointed with oil before you
Speaker 3: as you walked into the temple. I was even still
Speaker 3: do That's what that was interesting when they did that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: now we have Yeah, all right, I just mentioned that.
Speaker 3: Then Tuturlian also speaks of two schools and two chairs,
Speaker 3: which means that obviously there was you know, variations or
Speaker 3: lines of it. Now. So that's just something that I'm
Speaker 3: showing to show how it spread. Once Valentinism becomes many,
Speaker 3: you know, handed movement, scriptural, sacramental, intelligent and adaptive, you know,
Speaker 3: the response from the emerging church kind of steps up
Speaker 3: this or iron this becomes one of the great you know.
Speaker 3: This is also around the tom or iron Is kind
Speaker 3: of becomes one of the great architects of Christian counter memory.
Speaker 3: And again, you know he's not just arguing against ideas,
Speaker 3: he is helping build the or you know, this is
Speaker 3: what he's thinking. He's helping build the logic by which
Speaker 3: orthodox he will later be able to defend itself with
Speaker 3: as well. Ucbus preserves the memory that iron Ais wrote
Speaker 3: against Roman figures disturbing the Church's sound ordiness, especially Florinas
Speaker 3: and blessed Us. To bless Us he wrote on schism.
Speaker 3: To Florinus, he wrote monarchy or that God is not
Speaker 3: the author of evil. So this is kind of what
Speaker 3: I'm getting at. It's like when he wanted to kind
Speaker 3: of like refute somebody, It's like you had to write
Speaker 3: something and throw it out there.
Speaker 1: For people to tweet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, ancient tweet, Yo. Could you imagine trying to tell
Speaker 3: like that. You know, the kids nowadays like they never
Speaker 3: they wouldn't do anything. You know what I'm saying, Like
Speaker 3: this is funny how it's like what people went back
Speaker 3: then and like what we bitch about today.
Speaker 1: And what's funny too, is like, uh, I wonder if
Speaker 1: uh you know, justin Martyr Tertullian and all these guys
Speaker 1: that you know, the Church really looks to and then
Speaker 1: calls them, you know, the early Church fathers. And I
Speaker 1: love reading their work and stuff. But like me, like
Speaker 1: I said at the beginning of the show, I try
Speaker 1: to be theologically honest, you know, and ask questions, and
Speaker 1: that way, I'm taking more seriously from people that don't believe,
Speaker 1: like I believe, you know. I mean, because if you're
Speaker 1: just saying, oh, I believe it and it's the truth
Speaker 1: and I don't have to tell you why, they're not
Speaker 1: gonna take you seriously, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's like, and I hear people all the time
Speaker 1: be like, uh, I believe this. I'm like, well, why
Speaker 1: do you believe that? Oh? Well, the Tortullian said, da
Speaker 1: da dad. I'm like, Tertullian was a man. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: you shared with me a man's interpretation, but he's not God,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. People really kind of propagate
Speaker 1: these people like whatever they say goes. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll listen to them if they sound right. I'm like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: they make a good point. I can get down with that.
Speaker 1: But it's like I don't hold them to this, you know,
Speaker 1: worship standard, like what they say is absolute gold. And uh,
Speaker 1: I wonder if when they were writing these and doing
Speaker 1: these things, if they actually even thought that they would
Speaker 1: be held up like this, if their work would be
Speaker 1: looked at inter rated so much, you know, because think
Speaker 1: about us, you know, our Donald Trump on truth social
Speaker 1: you know, uh, sending out pictures of him looking like
Speaker 1: Jesus telling everybody I put in a prompt to be
Speaker 1: a doctor. Yeah bullshit, But imagine you know that that's
Speaker 1: the ancient tweets. So therefore, who knows, a thousand years
Speaker 1: from now, they're pulling up this dinosaur thing called the
Speaker 1: Internet and they see this president sharing this image of
Speaker 1: him in a robe looking like Christ healing somebody, and
Speaker 1: they'd be like, uh, well, it's it's on the ancient
Speaker 1: ex that's documented everything. So this guy, look, he was
Speaker 1: a he was a godlike healer man, you know, the
Speaker 1: critical thinker.
Speaker 3: I thought that before I was even like, yo, what
Speaker 3: the amount of ship people even put out there now
Speaker 3: in books just like even whatever, there's some stuff out
Speaker 3: there that I'm sure it's just off the wall and incorrect.
Speaker 3: I was like, what if somebody just happened to find that,
Speaker 3: you know, thousands of years after humanity is over, and
Speaker 3: they take it some religious texts to some shit, and
Speaker 3: it's just like, yo, he really looked at the wrong book,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, Like, we have no idea.
Speaker 3: Sometimes you're right, or I'm thinking about like in the future,
Speaker 3: it's just like oh, man, like, oh God, God help them.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And that's the thing.
Speaker 3: Is likely.
Speaker 1: When I was growing up, I was thinking, if it's
Speaker 1: in a book, it has to be true because it's vaded. Man,
Speaker 1: they wouldn't allow you to print it if it wouldn't true.
Speaker 1: But no, any sob and their brother can write a
Speaker 1: book now and put what about anyone in there? Just
Speaker 1: because it's been printed, doesn't mean it's gold, folks.
Speaker 3: No, you're totally right, all right? And then this is
Speaker 3: uh oh okay again, yeah he wrote, he wrote those
Speaker 3: two things. And because Florinus was said to be drawn
Speaker 3: toward Valentinian erar Ironaus, that was the reason he wrote
Speaker 3: on the ogdde uh. And then Ironaus makes one of
Speaker 3: his great moves against the whole idea of hidden lead transmission.
Speaker 3: He says that if the apostles had known secret mysteries
Speaker 3: reserved for the perfect they would have passed them on,
Speaker 3: especially to those whom they entrusted the churches. So now
Speaker 3: that I guess they're basically saying that to the Valentinians,
Speaker 3: that there is no hidden Apostolic shit in your stuff.
Speaker 3: And then he sharpens it with another famous image, the
Speaker 3: apostles deposited truth in the church like a rich man
Speaker 3: depositing money in a bank. So I guess since you
Speaker 3: said that there's arguments over Yeah, you know what's funny,
Speaker 3: that sounds like something true would say, believe me, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,
Speaker 3: uh said okay, oh fuck man, that guy's nuts. Oh.
Speaker 3: One of the one of the one of another detailed
Speaker 3: by Yusebius preserves is iron as closing warning to do
Speaker 3: they were even telling them to uh. So this is
Speaker 3: the thing that I think shows that I guess they
Speaker 3: must have considered them a little bit more serious than
Speaker 3: some of the other ones. They were even suggesting that
Speaker 3: if you came across this stuff to even fix what's
Speaker 3: wrong in the book. So it was even like even
Speaker 3: ways of trying to attack their stuff that's been released,
Speaker 3: I guess, instead of like I guess, maybe they didn't
Speaker 3: think of burning books back then, they were like, no,
Speaker 3: you got to fix it, you know, recopy it and
Speaker 3: fix it or some shit like that. They wanted people
Speaker 3: to actually fix the ship. Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yes.
Speaker 3: And the reason I'm bringing that up again is because
Speaker 3: I would figure, like, that's pretty serious if you're saying
Speaker 3: that now, like they must have been influential or you know,
Speaker 3: big enough, which I mean.
Speaker 1: It was even happening to the ancient scrolls. And that's
Speaker 1: another thing. I try to be theologically honest with people.
Speaker 1: You know that I have to. You know, I've encountered
Speaker 1: a lot of people that want to say, you know,
Speaker 1: the Bible is the divine inspired word of God, never
Speaker 1: changed and perfect. And you know, basically the authors, like
Speaker 1: the occult I had automatic writing, a spirit, the spirit
Speaker 1: of God took over and their eyes rolled back in
Speaker 1: their head and they wrote everything perfect the way God
Speaker 1: wanted to say it, like it was right from his lips.
Speaker 1: And we see that some of the stuff's been changed,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I think got me personally.
Speaker 1: I think God protected the important stuff. But if it
Speaker 1: was not able to be changed or altered, why even
Speaker 1: as their warnings about it in the text, the text says,
Speaker 1: you know, cursed is any man who adds or takes away.
Speaker 1: So why that's a threat without teeth if it wasn't
Speaker 1: already happening. But Doug van dorn I had him on
Speaker 1: the show and he showed me a prime example of
Speaker 1: the Old Testament being messed with in the genealogies. The
Speaker 1: oldest documents that they found in Genesis in documenting the
Speaker 1: genealogies had seth dying several hundred years earlier than the
Speaker 1: ones we have now that are mass distributed. And he
Speaker 1: said that when he's seen that, he was like, well,
Speaker 1: what's up with that? And he said that when he
Speaker 1: dove through this, basically he said, during the Second Temple period,
Speaker 1: when you look at the Book of Hebrews, it compares
Speaker 1: Jesus to Melchisedek from the Old Testament, the priest of
Speaker 1: Peace and Salem, and said, and the Pharisees was like, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: we can't have that, because they was trying to discredit
Speaker 1: Jesus and smash that Christian movement because they didn't believe
Speaker 1: he was the Messiah. So they added several hundred years
Speaker 1: to the life of shim just so he would be
Speaker 1: alive during the time when Abraham encountered Malkisa deex so
Speaker 1: they could point away from Jesus and be like, no, no, no, no, look, hey, no,
Speaker 1: Seth was still alive.
Speaker 3: This is who that was.
Speaker 1: So and that's what even talks about in the New Testament.
Speaker 1: I can't remember what book it was, but they mentioned
Speaker 1: the lying pen of the scribes, so I mean they
Speaker 1: knew they were going back and altering the text to
Speaker 1: insert their own ideologies and influences into the text.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's a good point, man.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're human man. Humans live, we manipulate, we cheat,
Speaker 1: we all have our agendas and biases. We can't hold
Speaker 1: these people up to God's standards, you know, and they're
Speaker 1: just like us. They're subject to corruption.
Speaker 3: I mean, like I was even thinking when you saw
Speaker 3: of going always that, especially like they're token and tones.
Speaker 3: I was even thinking of, Like I've shared a few
Speaker 3: reels recently and even on Instagram where it's just like
Speaker 3: and I do believe some of these people probably like
Speaker 3: believing themselves, but only they're probably not even scam outis.
Speaker 3: But like, you know, you get these it just happens
Speaker 3: to be women. I'm sure there's men that do it too,
Speaker 3: that's doing this whole like they're fucking hands are all
Speaker 3: over the place and thinking there's sucking energy out of
Speaker 3: their head. It's like, what the fuck is wrong't you?
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying. But in their mind they
Speaker 3: might actually be legit thinking that they're channeling something. I
Speaker 3: think they're just you know, kind of got like a
Speaker 3: serious problem of Tourett's at the moment, you know, But
Speaker 3: you know what I'm getting at, Like to those people,
Speaker 3: they may think they're authentic and the people watching them
Speaker 3: that believe it me, you know, but it's it's probably
Speaker 3: you know who knows what's really going on?
Speaker 1: Well, Yeah, and the power suggestion and herd mentality is
Speaker 1: a real thing. Yeah, you know, you're brought up and
Speaker 1: you're told X Y Z for forty years you're going
Speaker 1: to twist your mind and theology and things you do
Speaker 1: to accommodate that belief that you've been taught. Or if
Speaker 1: you're in a room full of a lot of people
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden jump up start going oh
Speaker 1: gosh and running around, you're gonna automatically oh gosh, what's
Speaker 1: going on? And you're gonna get scared too, because the
Speaker 1: herd mentality. So if you're in a church setting and
Speaker 1: you see a bunch of people doing something, you may
Speaker 1: honestly even make yourself feel like you're feeling that too,
Speaker 1: just because of it all going on around you. It
Speaker 1: influences you.
Speaker 3: That is, you know what that show that I had
Speaker 3: dropped today Winstone's sing I got into the whole kind
Speaker 3: of like you were saying, like when everybody starts doing
Speaker 3: stuff in unison in church settings, believe it or not,
Speaker 3: that actually does start to change, like your nervous system
Speaker 3: and to an extent to where your body will almost
Speaker 3: start putting out like a mild pain killer.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: So like I was like even showing how like between
Speaker 3: that and then how some of these things are even
Speaker 3: built with specific you know, acoustics.
Speaker 1: Sarah traction or a dopamine here.
Speaker 3: You know it was dopamine. Yeah. Uh, Like your body
Speaker 3: is actually like being forced to It's it's really interesting.
Speaker 3: It's you are actually having physical changes in your body
Speaker 3: because of that. It's very weird. There was even places
Speaker 3: that you know, real quick, just to give you another example,
Speaker 3: like you know how some places you'll go into a
Speaker 3: big room that it narrows into a small room, goes
Speaker 3: back to a big room again, small room. Believe it
Speaker 3: or that when you walk through that, that actually does
Speaker 3: ship to your head and your brain and it creates
Speaker 3: change in your systems in the weak things, and it's
Speaker 3: like frequencies. Yeah, yeah, it gets it gets really really interesting.
Speaker 1: Different music and rhythm patterns kind of affect yeah ude.
Speaker 1: And it can release either you know, dopamine or even
Speaker 1: at the same time, what's that cortisole and make you
Speaker 1: get stressed out and freaked.
Speaker 3: Out, you know, yes, mm hmm. I was even showing
Speaker 3: just like another like really weird examples that, like even
Speaker 3: in mosque because they built them too so like the
Speaker 3: person in the back of the room was hearing it
Speaker 3: as if they were up in the front. They were
Speaker 3: able to do the acoustics to where it actually still
Speaker 3: sounded just as louder, like the person was in your
Speaker 3: face in the back, and it's like holy shit, yeah shit,
Speaker 3: how they do all that Back Then, to get back
Speaker 3: to Valentinus, there is a little bit of stuff that
Speaker 3: they do have for him. He does have a short
Speaker 3: psalm called Summer Harvest that's enough to really sprove that
Speaker 3: he wrote or that he did do something that got circulated.
Speaker 3: And it has been noted that Valentinus's psalm book was
Speaker 3: surprised prisingly well attested in antiquity, even though it was
Speaker 3: only one short Only one short psalm survives. One report
Speaker 3: from one report from Hippolytis says Valentinis claimed he once
Speaker 3: saw a newborn child and asked who it was, and
Speaker 3: was told the logos. Hippolytis presents that as ridicule, but
Speaker 3: even as hostile testimony, it reveals something that I guess,
Speaker 3: you know, was enough to kind of bother them, or
Speaker 3: I don't know, it doesn't make sense. Then Clement preserves
Speaker 3: fragments that show remarkable other stuff that they believed in.
Speaker 3: One of them describes the human heart like a filthy inn,
Speaker 3: a lodging place, fouled in, disordered until the father enters
Speaker 3: and sanctifies it. Then another part says that just as
Speaker 3: the image of a face is inferior to the living face,
Speaker 3: so this world is inferior to living eternity. Another fragment
Speaker 3: says much of what is written in the public books
Speaker 3: is found in the Church of God. Then there is
Speaker 3: another part of the psalm I see in spirit that
Speaker 3: all are hung. I know in spirit that all are born.
Speaker 3: And then finally the strangest one of all the saying
Speaker 3: about Jesus his body, Clement preserves the line that Jesus
Speaker 3: ate and drank in his own way without defecating. That
Speaker 3: was what I even image in that earlieness. You have
Speaker 3: that then again, and then kind of like to get
Speaker 3: back to the Naghamadi when that came out. There's Codex
Speaker 3: one and is especially important. It contains the prayer of
Speaker 3: the Apostle Paul, the Apocryphon of James, the Gospel of Truth,
Speaker 3: the treaties on Resurrection. In the Tripartite Tractate. The Gospel
Speaker 3: of Truth is kind of like where we'll go. And
Speaker 3: the iron Aus already knew of a writing called the
Speaker 3: Gospel of Truth and associated it with the Valentinians, So
Speaker 3: there you even kind of have the Valentinians going in there.
Speaker 3: Benette also opens with the Gospel of Truth is joy.
Speaker 3: So treatise on the Resurrection is another one. It does
Speaker 3: not treat resurrection as his distant future of event. Only
Speaker 3: it says, in one of the most kind of staring
Speaker 3: reversals in the whole tradition that the world is more
Speaker 3: properly an illusion than resurrection. It even tells the hero
Speaker 3: in effect that resurrection is already underway, and it says
Speaker 3: you already have resurrection. Mm.
Speaker 1: It's like an anemetrical process of the ascension of the
Speaker 1: higher conscience and the hal are the egos what goes
Speaker 1: into hay all the ego death and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, then you have the traparthide tractate and that kind
Speaker 3: of goes into the fall as the root of totality,
Speaker 3: the unfolding of reality, deficiency, restoration, and again the threefold
Speaker 3: division of humanity, spiritual, psychic material. So but yeah, I think, uh,
Speaker 3: and then Valentini's uh eventually because of this, that's when
Speaker 3: you know, this was another thing that they sorted kind
Speaker 3: of complaining about. And Epiphanius kind of gets in there
Speaker 3: in the in the Panareeon, and he approaches Valentinis not
Speaker 3: as a figure still needing discovery, but as a classified
Speaker 3: danger heresy arc already entered into the cabinet of errors.
Speaker 3: So you have Epiphanius kind of started getting on the
Speaker 3: point too about his stuff. But I think when it
Speaker 3: comes to really anything that I could tell you that
Speaker 3: like in quotations of anymore or anything by them. I
Speaker 3: think I'm kind of out of that. The rest would
Speaker 3: just be kind of he does, he does, I would,
Speaker 3: like I said earlier, Valentinus does become I remember even
Speaker 3: hearing his name. And the Gnostic Mass, the Gnostic Mass
Speaker 3: that goes on in the OTO technically isn't through the OTO,
Speaker 3: It's through the EGC, the Classia Agnostica Catholica, the Agnostic
Speaker 3: Catholic Church they're in charge of. Like how g Gnostic
Speaker 3: Mass kind of gets done and the OTO adheres to
Speaker 3: that and doesn't inside their lodge. And Valentinis is one
Speaker 3: of the people that is listed as a saint. And
Speaker 3: I even said Hippolytis. Hippolytis is in there too as well.
Speaker 1: Which is they even the Gnostics, even sainted people like
Speaker 1: their own Catholic church.
Speaker 3: That's wild mm hm oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they
Speaker 3: got a bunch of people in there. Yeah. And I
Speaker 3: just wanted to mention that. And you know, Alison Crowley's
Speaker 3: liber fifteen includes Valentinis among the transmitters of gnosis. In
Speaker 3: jung Pleroma becomes a psychological metaphysical kind of category.
Speaker 1: The psychological guy, okay.
Speaker 3: And the Matrix were supposed to have actually taken some
Speaker 3: of his ideas and used it in the as like
Speaker 3: the False World, the False Origin, the Awakening, and the
Speaker 3: Escape and Return. They kind of got that hole from Valentinis.
Speaker 3: Oh wow as an influence.
Speaker 1: Yeah see, I didn't know. I loved that film and
Speaker 1: thought that was so cool. And I remember when I
Speaker 1: was a kid, because I was I don't know, seventh
Speaker 1: or eighth grade when that came out, and I was
Speaker 1: just like, oh my gosh, what if we are living
Speaker 1: in a computer simulation, you know, and all this stuff,
Speaker 1: and uh it sounded really cool to me at the time,
Speaker 1: you know, And I'm like, man, that's that's deep, you know.
Speaker 1: And then you get older and I found out it
Speaker 1: was like the whole Gnostic thing, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I feel cheated now.
Speaker 3: Oh one thing, one thing I forgot to mention, and
Speaker 3: I totally and this one it's just like not to
Speaker 3: bust balls. But I'm like, yeah, I was like, is
Speaker 3: this just like it feels like this is just a
Speaker 3: tactic that they that's been just going on for like
Speaker 3: eight or nine hundred years already, not to bust balls.
Speaker 3: But Epiphanius comes out and it's just like, you know,
Speaker 3: did this really happen or you're just talking shit now.
Speaker 3: He says that, uh that at some point like uh
Speaker 3: that Valentine's got on a ship and uh uh it
Speaker 3: was supposedly from Egypt and we know where was it going.
Speaker 3: It was on its way to Cyprus and supposedly got
Speaker 3: in his shipwreck somehow lived and but when he came
Speaker 3: back she was like hurted. Mentally, It's like, oh God,
Speaker 3: is that It's it's like always it's like either you're
Speaker 3: either your satan or you're you're a pervert or some
Speaker 3: sexual DV. It's like, is this It's the same tactics
Speaker 3: To me, it just seems kind of like I was
Speaker 3: just like all right, so like that's your reasoning. The
Speaker 3: guy got into his shipwreck, somehow he lived, came back,
Speaker 3: and I was a pervert. I'm just like, I don't know.
Speaker 3: It just kind of sounds like cheesy, but yeah, I forgot.
Speaker 1: The road to Damascus an what what?
Speaker 3: What made him a perverb because of the shipwreck. I
Speaker 3: just don't get the two, like how one equals the next.
Speaker 3: But I found that funny.
Speaker 1: That's funny.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But yeah, besides that, just I didn't want to
Speaker 3: mention those like kind of things that he was influencing.
Speaker 3: Uh you know again with the major and Callieong and
Speaker 3: now it's the Crowling. But uh yeah, I think that's
Speaker 3: pretty much anything that I have in quotations from other
Speaker 3: people or any kind of any other notes really that
Speaker 3: means anything. I cope.
Speaker 1: Well, that's awesome, man. I appreciate you sharing all that
Speaker 1: with us, because, like I said, I had just little
Speaker 1: bits and pieces and maybe like a little bit of
Speaker 1: a thirty thousand foot view. So this was definitely educating
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 3: And uh, thank you.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it, and especially Cox. I think guy Israel
Speaker 1: Anderson kind of stuff he's talking about it kind of
Speaker 1: gives it.
Speaker 3: That was interesting the stuff that you said, how I
Speaker 3: definitely saw a connection.
Speaker 1: Then, well, brother, before we leave though, man, just case
Speaker 1: somebody came in mid stream or something like that letterybody
Speaker 1: know where they can find you and uh supports you
Speaker 1: all right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Occult Rejects that's on bitchoot Rumble YouTube, all
Speaker 3: major podcasts, and we do have a Cult Research Institute
Speaker 3: dot org that is a website as tons of stuff
Speaker 3: on there to read if you're into reading some shows
Speaker 3: that I've done or read even up there, like you
Speaker 3: can read actually what I read myself. If you're into that,
Speaker 3: check it out. And there is also some merch on it.
Speaker 3: We have two t shirts if you're interested. You can
Speaker 3: check that out. And uh yeah, yeah, that's it. And
Speaker 3: thank you very much for let me come on. Man,
Speaker 3: that was great. That was fun.
Speaker 1: I love having you on talking with you. If you're
Speaker 1: getting a lot of love in the chat, man, Tiffany's
Speaker 1: saying thanks, Nick and Brandy saying great show.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 1: They loved your info that you brought.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm trying to find a very interesting shit just.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, just to research it out and see
Speaker 1: what's there. And like I said, many times, stuff I've
Speaker 1: looked into, especially if I was even taught about it
Speaker 1: in school. I look back and I'm like, man, I
Speaker 1: just lied to or you know, how in the hell
Speaker 1: did they interpret that this way?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: So I think it's so much fun to go back
Speaker 1: and re examine everything. Yes, yeah, and before we go, guys,
Speaker 1: I'll do my little sign off and tell you guys,
Speaker 1: you know, torture is high all that good stuff like
Speaker 1: I normally do. But I had mentioned that video I
Speaker 1: want to put it up and show you guys if
Speaker 1: you haven't seen it yet, and then I'll close the
Speaker 1: show out after that and we'll end this and call
Speaker 1: it tonight. But I wanted to try to pull this up,
Speaker 1: and so I will have to. Let's see under that one.
Speaker 1: Bring this over, okay, Yeah, this is it all right, guys.
Speaker 1: I love y'all. Thank you for coming in and tuning
Speaker 1: in and dropping out, as they say, and I will
Speaker 1: be sure to end it after this and be sure
Speaker 1: to check us out man Sunday night. Every Sunday, eight
Speaker 1: pm Eastern Center time, we have our live study. So
Speaker 1: come and be a part of the study yourself though
Speaker 1: in your comments, your question and actually be a part.
Speaker 1: It is a live study of Lewis Ginsburg Legends of
Speaker 1: the Jews. We are on our I think eighteenth episode now,
Speaker 1: so we're going strong, guys. But here I'm in the
Speaker 1: show with this. If you haven't seen this, this is
Speaker 1: really really cool.
Speaker 2: As in a mother's womb where two babies and one
Speaker 2: turns to the other and says, do you believe in
Speaker 2: the life after delivery? Then the other replies, but of
Speaker 2: course there has to be something after delivery. Maybe we're
Speaker 2: here to prepare ourselves for what will be later. Nonsense
Speaker 2: of the first. There's no life after delivery. What kind
Speaker 2: of life would that be? I don't know, said the second.
Speaker 2: But there'll be more light than here. Maybe we'll walk
Speaker 2: with our legs and eat with our mouths. Maybe we'll
Speaker 2: have other senses we can't understand now. First gust, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Walking isn't possible, and eating with our mouths, that's absurd.
Speaker 2: The umbilical cord is what scientifically supplies nutrition and all
Speaker 2: that we need, but it's far too short. Life after
Speaker 2: delivery is to be logically excluded. And the second says,
Speaker 2: what if it's just different than it is here? Maybe
Speaker 2: we don't need that physical chord anymore. The first goes, okay,
Speaker 2: if there were life after delivery, then tell me why
Speaker 2: has no one ever come back from there? Delivery is
Speaker 2: the end of life, and in the after delivery is
Speaker 2: nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere,
Speaker 2: And the second says, but certainly we'll meet mother and
Speaker 2: she'll take care of us. The first goes, mother, you
Speaker 2: actually believe in mother? If Mother exists, where is she now?
Speaker 2: And the second goes, she's all around us, we are
Speaker 2: of her. It is in her that we live. Without her,
Speaker 2: this world would not and could not exist. And the
Speaker 2: first says, I don't see her. It's only logical that
Speaker 2: she's not here, to which the second replied, Sometimes when
Speaker 2: you're in silence and you really listen, you can perceive
Speaker 2: her presence. You can hear her loving voice calling down
Speaker 2: from above.
Speaker 1: So you steal the fire.
Speaker 3: Not too bad, Lot Frozen passed around the co