Speaker 1: It's going to happen, Boss, It's going to happen during
the course of the complete hul Cogan just because we
don't have full, unfettered access to everything that's ever existed
on tape of hul Cogan. When we hit that point
in the chronology, does it mean it won't emerge later?
Just wait till some Daphin footage comes up, you know
that that is the moment we've all been waiting for.
What do we want under our tree this year original
nine millimeter reels? Yes, of all of whole stuff. I
want Hogan and Andre in Alabama. I want every Hogan
promo on Ron Fuller's TV. Yeah, I hear what his
voice sounded like, what the presentation looked like. I want
to hear them talking about him battling Harley Race. Yes,
but we can dream. And one of the things that
sort of became I mean, obviously it's not a Holy
Grail level piece of missing footage, but one of the
things that kind of became a bee in my bonnet,
kind of stuck in my craw a little bit, is
that we didn't have access to Hulk Hogan's match with
well remembered of the period wwfn W dow w F
JOB or Sylvano SUSA. You remember this, So that's a
little bit of Joe mcbe Yeah, you remember the Silvano
SUSA story.
Speaker 2: Don't you? Uh? I think so. There have been so
many stories, but reminding me of this one.
Speaker 1: He's the guy who we ended up getting a hand
of a memo that he sent Titan Towers in the
nineties hoping to get hired again.
Speaker 2: And vincent it back as Yes, well, you know, we
appreciate your your individualism and how you UH participate and
pertab participated in the w w A in the past.
But you know, we have to think about the current
age of of projection regarding the fan base and the
UH and the talent involved in in projecting to the
fan base and multitude of of of you know, laterals
and collaterals and all sorts of things that we have
to consider before we can give you a proper answer,
whether that is a yes or a no. In regards
to the the opportunity to come back and made event
WrestleMania in other world, we will consider have a good
life right in other words, yes, I mean we we
we we need you know, we The w W is
in a constant state of diving into deliverable.
Speaker 1: An old, broken down wrestler down on his luck on
the verge of bankruptcy, gets a letter back with all
of this corporate fluff.
Speaker 2: In it, a deliverable acquisitional entertainment.
Speaker 3: And uh Silvano sitting on his couch and like providence, Like,
oh Jesus, Vince, he says, honey, he says, there's just
transactional mergers and acquisitions or something.
Speaker 2: Because the w W is A is a corporate conglomerate
of innovative industry leaders and.
Speaker 1: But industry leaders across industry. I mean, Silvano SUSA left
the wrestling business and worked in industry and like industrial plants,
but in an industrial park.
Speaker 2: But that's what I will. But I will keep you
in the loop as we as we personally dive into
the weeds, and you know, we continue to move forward
in an attempt to uh to move the needle towards
our low hanging fruit.
Speaker 1: But be well, I'll take some high hanging fruit, Vince.
I don't give a fuck. I'm on the verge of
I'm looking for the letter here. What a wonderful memo
it was. But yeah, so we developed a little bit
of a curiosity about this guy, you know. And yes,
in any territory during the territorial era, the fans of
the of the region got to know the jabbronis. You know,
you knew them by near sure. They were never going
to win. They didn't really have fans, but he was
really one of them. And there was this photograph that's
pretty well circulated. You can find it if you Google
at Hulk Hogan Wrestling Silvano, SUSA. And so it's like
man if photographers were there to photograph the match and everything,
and it looked like it should have been on television
because it took place on a television taping, just like
all the other matches we watched as hul Cogan made
his debut for the WWF in November nineteen seventy nine.
And sure enough we brought it to the surface. Richard Land,
who's just an absolute maven of archival wrestling footage on
X heard about the call through our network through the
Great mat and knew that we had a need. And
it's one of those things where we asked for a
favor of a relative stranger. Yeah, and you kind of
don't want to push it too hard kind of want
to gracefully let someone forget, you know, if if it's
just not something that's worth their time, let them forget
about it. And obviously you know it's fine. Like we've
appreciated the I appreciate at least the initial message that
said I'll try to find it for you. Like we
still haven't heard back from our Palquitte Parker.
Speaker 2: Have we about.
Speaker 1: The Alabama footage and what kind of contract? But the
contract could tell us about why if there's no footage
of this territory. We have all seen the Hulk cogaan
Andre the Giant right.
Speaker 2: In fact, I'm leave his his number is out of
is now out of order and like it no longer exists,
and his email getting back those those those spam, those
those returns saying nope, this email doesn't exist, so he's gone.
Speaker 1: I'm being funny. Yeah, he definitely. I'm just almost found
with No, I didn't find it. Yes, his email is
bouncing back. It is not that is not true. But
you know, I thought, was my god, if you could
find the contract that entitled you to put that Hull
Cogan arm wrestling angle with Andre from the doth in
TV Studios. Yes, on that wrestling goal VHS released. Yes,
we might know who was on the other side of
that transaction, and he did tell us in the interview
that we did around Christmas time that it was Pedro Martinez,
who was of course a prominent Northeast area wrestling promoter
in the seventies. However, wasn't quite sure about all of
the particulars and thought that we get something out of that.
This one, though, this one came to life. And I
don't know how well circulated video of Hulk Hogan versus
Silvano SUSA was before we did this. I don't know
if at one point perhaps was very easy to discover,
but we had a hell of a time. It took
place on December fourth, nineteen seventy nine, of the TV
tapings in Allentown, PA, but it didn't air until December
twenty ninth, nineteen seventy nine. And not only are we happy,
actually thrilled to have just gotten that much more complete
as it regards the video record of Hulk Hogan and
his maiden voyage in the New York territory, it also
opens another vein for us that we were rather excited
to explore. As we've gone through the different territories Hulk
Hogan's worked, be it Michael Saint John and Memphis for example,
or Charlie Platt in Alabama, or many others. We have
been able to find a way to access the voice
of the fan in some way. Yes, we take pride
in that the voice of the person who wasn't actively
involved in the wrestling business but had a vantage point
on it that ought to be chalked up to history
as well. Yes, and for New York, I thought John
Arezi immediately. Those who know what I'm talking about know
that John Arezzi it wasn't as a longtime wrestling journalist
out of New York. He ran the radio show with
Vince Russo in the early nineties of pro wrestling Spotlight Show.
He was the guy that was the journalist with the
sunglasses on and the Phil Donahue panel that had Dave
melts Heer on it, and of course Ince McMahon and
everyone going at each other's throats.
Speaker 2: It's working totally great.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, yeah, Well he wrote a great book
called Matt Memories where he talks about hoe he essentially
had had to go incognito, changed his name, got involved
in managing talent in the Nashville country music scene, changed
his name to John Alexander and just had a kind
of a wild second life after I don't know. I mean,
he was in that Dark Side of the Ring episode
that we helped on the steroid trials, and he was
getting weird visits from random people involved with like private
eye firms and stuff because he was, you know, he
was a platform a guy's like Superstar Billy Graham and
Bruno San Martino who were absolutely skewering the ww after
in the height of all of those scandals steroids and
as well as the Tom Cole stuff and all the
stuff we came to find out was the mel Phillips stuff,
all of that, and so he ends up not not
not necessarily for that reason, but he ends up kind
of disappearing for a while. He used to run the
very first wrestling fan conventions in the vein of like
the star cast ones where you're kidding, oh yeah, like
in the early nineties or like wrestlers from several different
companies and territories. One famously had Rick Flair there that
was a huge draw. The Cactus Jack mcfoley longtime friends
and associates with him, he brought him on his radio
show very very early on as a New York boy.
And so it's it's somebody that I thought would give
us a great vantage point on what it was like
to be a fan of the territory at this time.
Not just a fan though, but someone who got into
the ring just once, just once. He tag teamed with
Silvano SUSA against Dusty Rhodes and one of, if not
Dusty's first appearance in the New York territory of course,
just before the arrival of Hulk Coogan. In fact, probably
why while Terry Bolea was training with Matsuda and Company
down in Tampa to break into the business. So this
is great because the Silvano connection brings us to John
h gives us, I think, a really clean reason to
include him here on the complete Hulk Cogan rather than
any other point later on. And we look forward to
getting the perspective on Silvano and just what this was like.
And and I think we've been hungering Boss to understand
like how the New York fans saw Hulk Hogan before
eighty four.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's it's it's so important because we we have this.
We it's a It's an incredible question mark and it
and it and it just lingers, it constantly lingers, because
you you want to know if there was any any spark,
Was there any spark, was there any like, Hey, this
guy could fucking be it, this guy could be a
huge star or was he just a fucking you know,
schmuck who like whatever, you know, big guy of the month,
and uh, you know, we'll see him, We'll see him
down the line.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that Larry Sibisco pointed out
in interacting a bit with Hulk Cocan in this era
that I thought was really interesting is he detected a
frustration in Hulk about eventually becoming Andrew the Giants whipping
boy in the territory, right, because you can't forget it's
not like shay Stadium happens, Hogan slams Andre, loses the match,
and then that's it that you know, history is made.
Hult goes off and becomes a big name. No right,
as we'll get to in the complete Hulk Coke. And
they went back on the road with the Hogan Andre
matches around the Horn as many cities as they could
take it to. Really and do you think Hulk's.
Speaker 2: Getting a w S.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's grewy finishes. It's you know, kicking
out at two but still getting counted down at three.
Long and short of it is, you know, if you're
Hulk Hogan looking out on your future in the New
York territory after the showdown at Shay, you're just going
to be basically getting thrown around by Andre the Giant
until people stop buying tickets to see it. And there's,
as we know, no end in sight. So how did
the fan the ww fans see that Hulk, right? How
did they did they see him kind of degraded? We've
already made a lot of hay about the fact that
they really weren't the main event that showed out at
Shayes Abisco and Bruno of course were yes. And now
you know, because the way we covered it exactly why,
including the interview with Larry's Obisco.
Speaker 2: So what about that?
Speaker 1: You know, how did the New York fans see Hulk
after it was clear that he wasn't going to eclipse
Andre the Giant, that he might just go down as
the latest guy to come in Big Heel physically Big
Heel losing a title program to the champion, Bob Ackland
being you know, the fill in for the Padro or
the Bruno of the past, and then get plugged in
against Andre who, of course is never going to be
a title challenger. His matches are never going to be
for the championship. They're always going to be the sort
of side show where you find the biggest guys you
can to present a credible threat. But that's really the
beginning and end of the use case for a Hull
covid R. Starting to make sense, Boss now why he
was so keen on taking the Rocky opportunity, even if
it's total Senior wasn't down with it.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's it's a chance to to
kind of, you know, take a take a different step,
go someplace else. I mean, it makes total sense. And
so in the.
Speaker 1: Spirit of that and what we found, we've added a
episode ten point five, if you will, to this nineteen
eighty coverage. Just a little side script. We kind of
did one of these two when we discovered some additional
materials covering Sterling, Golden and Georgia Championship Wrestling. Sure sure
didn't get published in the KFA Mags until months and
months after he'd already come to WWF and renamed himself
and there was no such thing as Sterling Golden anymore.
But still the framing of what he was like then
is relevant. It just came into our consciousness later, and
there's going to be a bit of this as we
go through the complete no doubt, we hope, as always,
when we put something into the universe it's something that
we tried our best to find but couldn't. We don't
just want to leave it at that. We await the
kind of magic that a Richard Land was able to
bring to us. So we have the video and we're
going to watch the match, but he also surfaced another one.
Another one was also surfaced with mats up as well
that we didn't really know about, but it was kind
of referenced in passing in one of the clips we watched.
I don't know if you remember this, but all of
a sudden, there was something we were watching where Hulk
had applied a double bear hug. That is to say,
he bear hugged two Jabbroni's at the same time. He
was able to wrap his arms around two grown men
and lift them simultaneously. And I was like, where the
hell was that one? Because yeah, right, it had to
have already happened. We've watched everything that we could find
on tape. No, there was yet another January twenty sixth,
nineteen eighty television squash with joe Myhugh announcing, So that
puts us in Allentown. I believe I always get that
confused whether it's Allentown or Hamburg. And yeah, we're gonna
watch that one first. This was taped January twenty second
and aired January twenty sixth, nineteen eighty. Also will serve
as kind of a nice little refresher about what we
saw of Hulk Cogan as he first blew into the
territory and where we're gonna see and the next leg
of the complete when we go on the road with
him and Andre post Shay and kind of decide decide
with the takeaway message would be in his final months
in the territory for the fans. So we're gonna start
here again. It's January twenty sixth, nineteen eighty WWF Television
Championship Wrestling Hulk Cogan versus two Jabrons by the name
of Fred Marzino and Paul Murray.
Speaker 2: Are you ready? I am ready?
Speaker 1: Okay, therefore we'll hit play in three two one play.
Speaker 2: Mcconnor Joe mchueuis guys.
Speaker 5: McDon louis that is that Kevin Poula?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Fred Marzina was the guy from Stoneham Freddie
don't call me Mercury Marzine, right exactly, Henry cutas can
hear the stir here in the TV shoot yep out
with a gold kate. There we go, There we go,
blasty and a baby blue head to toe.
Speaker 4: Yes, he is.
Speaker 1: Before Joe m calls him incredible again, here.
Speaker 6: We go, fabulous.
Speaker 7: Man.
Speaker 2: Here's one hunk of is very good? Is I have?
Oh he's got yellow yellow trunks? Very good? Yeah? True?
A jewel here, white uh knee pads. That's like, that's
like a fucking cock tis right there? Come on, just
fucking wear the red goddamn me pads for fox sake.
And we did establish that it was this set of
tapings that he first wore.
Speaker 8: Yellow nineteen eighty wrestling season getting underway with the wrestling.
Speaker 2: The nineteen eighty wrestling season, is that like seasons.
Speaker 8: Just never in c gener earlier dominic to know what
you will make.
Speaker 1: The double top wristlocks hold good the best he's called
me incredible, coding y incredible.
Speaker 8: Indeed for the fans of Panton.
Speaker 2: This is off the Baltimore Television.
Speaker 8: Tonight and then the Made of It the World Wrestling Events.
Older Bob Backland takes on the number one contender.
Speaker 6: Doun't the worst.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've been double leg diving them earlier.
Speaker 8: When you're challenge yes, a little bit more than disco stuff,
and you explain why that's where I saw it to apply.
Speaker 1: Watching disco stuff and they.
Speaker 8: Bring yourself to do it or be like implying a
hold on a brother or something, but brother.
Speaker 2: Amazing into each other.
Speaker 1: You're going to be the wrist not really for allowed
themselves to be yanked and.
Speaker 2: Slam. There we go.
Speaker 4: You know, you go from one thing to one another. Uh,
one hold leads to another. To me, it's going to
be instinct. And I just don't I think you're gonna
be confused if you're trying and hold back like I don't.
Speaker 8: I don't think you're gonna be able to hold back.
Speaker 7: Well, I don't know. Maybe a lot of people think
that way, and maybe you're right, because I've never been
facebook a situation like this before, but.
Speaker 8: Here it is double bear high unbelievable Bear, I got
double bear.
Speaker 4: Would you look at that.
Speaker 2: Double bizhog brother his uh god world dude, Oh will
buy sex hair? Still flowing your work.
Speaker 4: They were going to go back and speak a little.
Speaker 1: Bit more with Bruno still Terry Bolea. He hasn't gone
to Japan yet.
Speaker 9: You know it is time one minute and thirty six
seconds win inquitible Cooria.
Speaker 4: With me now, Brunos Martin.
Speaker 1: So that's uh, that was missing from the from the corpus.
So consider that added to the shelf here on the
complete and uh that leaves us with Silvano Susa. Now
we went a little bit out of order so as
to leave on Silvano again. This was December seventy nine.
Where's the match we just watched was January of nineteen eighty.
But we're going to get a look at Silvana Susa
and then it'll be our pleasure to present an interview
with John Arezzi, who got to know the man who
shared the ring with the man, and will give us
a perspective on where and how Halt Hogan was moving
through the world at this point in time. In the
World Wrestling Federation.
Speaker 2: So let's hit play in three two one play gentlemen ex.
Speaker 8: Con in football one ball with a ten.
Speaker 9: Time birth along introducing manager got fash with me.
Speaker 2: It is Fred Blassie Ye splendid and tangerine.
Speaker 6: My eleven from the California.
Speaker 2: We wait with David brown Way.
Speaker 6: Gentlemen, Oh hog.
Speaker 2: IDs l Hoogan, that's the white sleat on. Still yeah,
that's oh God, that guy is providence like well thick,
I should say definitely.
Speaker 1: Not fin It's like a Buddy Cen's commissioner of public Works,
doesn't he gone?
Speaker 2: God, Fred Blasse here we go.
Speaker 8: The following is commercial Nature's Correctmartino.
Speaker 2: Say commercial nature. I had to give that Provido.
Speaker 8: Well, he likes to raise your sharp and a competitive
start Friday night in West Orange at the South Mountain Arena.
Not only a pleasure for mister Sammartino to meet individual
competition this Friday night, but also of the Unico organization.
So a were they caused and a worthy contender squaring
off as Bruno Sammartino this Friday night, the fourth of
January in West Orange, New Jersey.
Speaker 1: Awesome of course that in post yeah top wrestlock. Hogan
shoving the Silvanna who's in a blue single looking like
a vader.
Speaker 2: He's not a small guy.
Speaker 8: Curiosity is not like the curiosity when you're ruster and uh,
you know you would you ever want to try and
just once a little bit.
Speaker 7: Well, if you're talking about me, I would if I
want to test his strength, because I was also also.
Speaker 2: Strength.
Speaker 7: For example, if a Ptero, let's say, if Potero, I'm
sure that that's the first thing in his mark, he's
going to show that he is a stronger man or
a vo call for many other people we can talk
about that are strong, but certainly a guy like Suso
it's not known to have that kind of track.
Speaker 2: That comps don't have anything.
Speaker 7: He's talk that he should be curious to even imagine
that he might give the guy.
Speaker 2: Some kind of whatever that whatever. That Rhode Island, he's
a couple of the reputation. He spent most of the
time drinking cabinets.
Speaker 7: But I'm talking about that super strung, super super string
of the whole Cogan.
Speaker 1: Open the knee, left, a crushing, blowing back running Susan,
the two bucklings raining down elbows.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the new York system Wiener, That's that's what
he's said. He's had quite a few New York System winners.
Speaker 1: By whole Corgan picture and making the drive in the
trans am from Providence to Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2: Turn around was at the moment he gets you know
what he has, takes a huge buckle, Susan trying to
prove something to somebody.
Speaker 7: Now he took it on the back and then leaked
I got what I can do your spine out of
your back when you think.
Speaker 2: Of like laughing at.
Speaker 4: Corners, A wow, it was pretty thick.
Speaker 2: Okay on the strength person.
Speaker 7: We've seen the bears been using a back.
Speaker 1: That's one of the funnier bear hugs we've seen from
Holk squashed absolutely, I mean he was hunting him for
a while.
Speaker 8: And on the chest of Selous to get a mind
as well, perhaps the brains in the brown of Hulk Hogan.
Speaker 4: Let's get the official time.
Speaker 2: Still precocious, second.
Speaker 6: In coridinal.
Speaker 8: So Hogan now being assisted by fred Blast.
Speaker 2: That's that.
Speaker 1: So we found it, considered it, added to Cannon and
much much more of that to come, we hope as
the complete Hull Cogan continues to unfold before your very
eyes presenting now a fly on the wall perspective on
this time period in WWF and the guy that Hulk
just comically ragdalled in the bear hug the new Port
Creamery customer of the Year, Silvano Susa. Here he comes
John Arezzi joining the tc H cannon on that cast,
and hey, just quickly before we get to the interview
with John Oreszi, I was finally able to find the
memo that we've read in previous episode of the Complete
hul Coogan, delivered from one Vincent K. McMahon on December seventeenth,
nineteen ninety seven to the home of the former Silvano
Susa reads. Dear Silvano, thank you for your second letter
of December twelfth, nineteen ninety seven. I regret that you've
had to endure such hardships, but I am sure, as
you have stated, that you've become a better person as
a result of it. However, and answering your request of employment,
we currently have an abundance of individuals with similar talent. Nonetheless,
we certainly will keep you in mind for the future.
It was good to see you again. Best regards, Vince McMahon.
Speaker 6: Wrestling Podcast.
Speaker 4: He's the Lapsed Fan Wrestling Podcast with Jack n Seo,
m JP Soro.
Speaker 1: Well, JP, as you know, one of the things we're
really trying to do with this complete Hulkogan project is
get into the minds of people that were not necessarily
active wrestlers in the different eras, different territories Hulk went to.
But but we're flies on the wall and really had
an insider view while also being true fans of the
territories that that Hulk touched.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean there's not I think. I think fly
on the wall, those are our people, right right.
Speaker 1: We want to talk to the guy vending at the
garden just as much as we want to talk to
the guy wrestling in the garden, and we found a
great candidate in that regard.
Speaker 2: You should know.
Speaker 1: I'm John Arezzi, of course, longtime wrestling journalist, author of
the book Matt Memories. Uh, just a terrific resource for
this time period in WWF, and John, we're so happy
you made the time for us.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much.
Speaker 4: Oh my pleasure. I'm happy to be here and happy
to share whatever thoughts and memories they may have. It's
good to jar the memories sometimes, so those yes, those
memories don't get buried.
Speaker 1: We can be a we can be of assistance in
that regard. We thought about you right away because I
remember reading your book, your great story about teaming with
the former WWF job guy Solana Susa and cap match
against Dusty Roads. You're one and only pro wrestling match.
Speaker 2: John.
Speaker 1: I think it would serve us all well if you
could just tell that story for our listeners to start.
Speaker 4: Of course, and there's certainly a backstory that involved SUSA
on this whole thing, which is really interesting. I had
been a photographer writer for all the major newstand wrestling magazines,
getting started in my teen years and publishing, getting articles published,
taking photographs at Madison Square Garden for every show. Once
I got my press access, which was not easy to get,
I was there and basically I had a crazy wold
hair up my ass, so to speak, that I wanted
to see what it would be like to go in
the ring and do this.
Speaker 2: Of course, I've shared that, I've shared that that feeling, and.
Speaker 4: I was able to accomplish that in nineteen seventy eight
when Ernie Roth, also known as the Grand Wizard of Wrestling,
as a dear friend of mine back then and I
told him what I wanted to do, and he thought
I was crazy, but he was able to set it
up for me for January tenth, seventy eight in Philadelphia,
where I covered the WWWF every three weeks at their
tapings for you know, several years. And Sussa I had
known because he was a prominent job guy back then.
He knew me. A matter of fact, I had been
approached by Vince McMahon Junior to take pictures of some
of the job guys because they didn't feel they had
a lot of love, so I used to take publicity
shots of them, and Susa was one of those guys.
I'm behold here, I am January tenth and have and
I never was in the ring before. I didn't have
any training, kind of bullshitted my way there. And when
Girl Monsoon, who was the booker, was like, well, you know,
they knew who I was, he was like, where have
you wrestled that? I wrestled down South, So that was
kind of it. But when I got into the locker
room with my gear, Susa was one of the guys
that see me in the locker room, and of course
he and a number of the other guys saw me
all the time taking pictures. So I saw Susa go
up to Monsoon and McMahon and kind of start whispering
to them, pointing at me, like, you know, that's the
photographer guy. You know what's he doing here? And even
though they didn't throw me out or tell me, you know,
I couldn't work, they put Soussa in the ring with me,
maybe to just kind of keep an eye on me.
I think, I think that's what happened. So worked with
Dusty and that was a big surprise for me as
well when they said I was going to be working
with Suser against Dusty, and we got our little meeting
and I was supposed to lose after four minutes or
whatever it was. So I didn't know what I was doing,
and you know, hit Dusty and it was a little
stiff or whatever. So he threw Susa out of the
ring and started delivering bionic elbows as a shoot, not
as a work. And then I didn't know what I
was doing at all, and you know, every move that
I made was not professional. And one of the lines
McMahon used on TV, he used the name John Anthony
for that night, and he was I got a new
cover John Anthony A total lack of coordination here, and
the match ended with I couldn't even take a body slam,
so Dusty lifted me up like dead weight and threw
me on top of Susa and then basically sat on
my head to pin me.
Speaker 1: Oh, he's stacked you on top of Susan and then
sat on both of you guys.
Speaker 4: Well, he sat on my head like, you know, good
thing that I was lying face down on top of Susa,
because I would hate to have imagined what would have
happened if I was face up and he sat on
my head at that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard stories about that area in the Dusty words.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, it was that.
Speaker 1: That was it.
Speaker 4: That was my experience. And then I had worked a
second match that night, teaming with the Italian Noble then
from Sicily, Joe Turco and uh It was in a
tag team match with Chief j Strongbow and Peter Marvia.
And during that second matage before it started, I was
told that I could not enter the race.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I don't remember a second match. Okay,
now it's making sense.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's up on YouTube if anyone wants to
find it on the for Wrestling Spotlight channel. But I
was not allowed in the ring till the very end,
until the finish when I was finally able to get
a tag with Turco and the Strongbow threw me in
over the top and threw me into the corner. My
Via gave me a head butt. I went down and
got the three count on me. And then on the
third taping of the night, I was supposed to work
with Bob Backland. Oh my goodness, wow, but they scrap
They scrapped me, and they just gave me my ninety
dollars and that was the end of it. It was
one hundred dollars for the night, but ten dollars had
to go to the Athletic Commission for my license, of course,
and that was it. And then the the most ironic
part of it was the next Madison Square Garden show,
which was on February the twentieth. That's the night that
Backland beat Graham for the title. I take my spot
at ringside like I had done for years, you know,
two and a half three years at Madison Square Garden,
and I was pulled from ringside from Mel Phillips and
he said, you can't shoot pictures anymore? What And I
was like, he goes. I was like why, he goes, Well,
you just wrestled for us, and you know you're in
the program. During the program, Georgia Napolitano took a picture
of me in strong Bow and they put he put
it in the program.
Speaker 2: The program for that very night. Oh my god.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So that night, that famous program where Graham loses
the title of the back Land. I think Jimmy Carter
is on the cover of that program.
Speaker 2: I was in it.
Speaker 4: And then I was barred from Ringside and and that
was the end of me, at least for a couple
of years until I got after. You know, a lot
of time had passed to start shooting a few more
shows at the Garden and being able to shoot Ringside again.
It in Boston. But that was you know, that was
my story of Savannah Seusser and the night that I
decided to take my life in my hands and have
a temporary lapse of sanity and actually going to the
ring and do it. But fortunately they were TV tapings.
The matches exist. If I ever want to get a
good laugh, I'll just go to YouTube and watch it.
Speaker 2: What a great story. So that was spectacular.
Speaker 1: I take it down your your communications with Savanna was
sort of like that one night only. Did you kind
of track how he moved through the business and what
ended up happening to him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had reached out when I got back into
wrestling twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, around the pandemic, when I
started the when I started the podcast with Brian last
Pro Wrestling Spotlight then and Now right and then when
that when that went away, I started another podcast, and
I reached out to Savanna to do the show, and
not knowing, you know, how much of a bad situation
he was in and homeless and sick, and we did
communicate back and forth and he wasn't comfortable with doing it,
and then he tragically passed towards the end. Yeah, he
remembered me. He remembered that night, and it was good
to interact with him towards the end of his life.
And it was only via like Facebook, you know, but right,
it was it was a good ending to you know,
not being in communication with him since seventy eight, you.
Speaker 1: Know, because we'd seen some indications yet, like you said,
he was kind of struggling and are these all these
job guys that Hogan came across. He wrestled Slvano and
it was a pretty famous picture of him working him
in December of seventy nine. So we got curious about him.
And yeah, it was pretty well understood that he had
hard times. We even saw that he had he'd write
letters sometimes to Titan Towers seeking anything. I guess, right,
do you remember that. What did you hear about that?
Speaker 2: If anything?
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was certainly looking for help, and in a
cruel business, you don't get help, and that's the unfortunate
part of it. And his struggles towards the end, you know,
from what I heard, he was living out of his car.
There were different different stories being told, and it just
saddens me because there were so many stories like that
about people who were in the business, and he was
in it for many years that at the end that
there's no help right when you're down on your luck.
He's a heartless business, as we all know.
Speaker 2: Heartless, that's the word. Precisely.
Speaker 1: When you got involved, John and certain you know, we're
able to be around the guys and take pictures and
be at the arenas and stuff. In the early seventies
or mid to late seventies. Did you sense that the
generation before that was particularly hard off as well, or
did this sort of like destitute, you know, fate for
some of these guys really only start kicking in in
the eighties and in late seventies. Or did you see
guys from the thirties who were down on their luck
as well in the seventies.
Speaker 4: No, I really didn't see the old old you know,
those that era before I was actively involved. None of
them were ever really around. Yeah, no one was around,
so you didn't know what happened to them. But certainly
the business was cruel in every generation up until the
current generation, because no one ever cared about what you did.
There were no benefits, there was no pension, there was
no nothing. And most of these guys, you know, we
get paid and paid in cash a lot of times,
and the money would be used to go to the
next town. And you have to pay your own trands.
You have to pay you you know, unless you were
up in the main event or the top tier of guys.
I mean, you'd have to fend for yourself with everything,
with meals, with hotels, with rental cars, with and that's
why there were so many guys that drove and then
at the end of the week, you know, what do
you have left? Right, and you go out drinking. And
at least in that era before all the drugs started
taking prominence after the national expansion. But yeah, it was
a cruel business. And none of them ever looked like
I had money.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing too, is they would get the Cadillac,
but they'd be living in Squalor.
Speaker 4: Right, and most times they'd wind up living in it
living exactly.
Speaker 1: You're not kidding, Well, I don't want to move on
a hulk John before without giving JP a chance to
compare notes, because, as he indicated, JP, you you felt
a similar It's that John felt in a seventy. He
didn't end up in the ring with Dusty Rhodes exactly.
But any questions on that, Yeah, well, I mean I
just so I did a we have we have we
have listeners who who used to run a kind of
they well they run kind of a wrestling school and
they they would do intensives and I did two intensives
and then we would end up putting on a show
after the end of the weekend. There was just a
weekend long training and I just want like you said
you had nothing, and you just went in there like,
oh man.
Speaker 4: How hot nothing. I used to wrestle with my college buddies,
like they knew I was into wrestling. And here I
give you a backdrop in the hallway of the dorm
and then separate my shoulder when I landed.
Speaker 2: In the little building.
Speaker 4: Perhaps, Uh, this was before Emerson. This was a Graham
Junior College the road that's where I started college and
then finished up in Emerson.
Speaker 2: Well, we actually, Jack and I would actually have some
wrestling matches in school, in public all over the place
that we'd film for our TV show that we had
on on campus.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I actually I actually had Graham Junior College
because everyone knew I was, you know, the wrestling guy.
And and I actually convinced the head of our TV
department instructor that let me let me do a you know,
a wrestling card in our little TV studio. So we
assembled like three matches and and I went over against
one of those guys that was you know, we call
themselves a hillbilly, and but one of the like the
match after me. The guys went wild and they brought
ketch up, you know, like to squirt and catch up
on each other's foreheads, and they took it out of
the took it a little extreme, and they and they
h they were brawling. And then when one went into
the what they would call the psych which was a
big curtain that surrounded the studio and ripped it. Uh
So we caused damage in the studio and that show
never aired on the college TV stations. We all got
in trouble. But was see that was a precursor to
my match with Dusty.
Speaker 2: I mean, did you did you They didn't even teach
you how to bump or anything.
Speaker 4: No, I mean I didn't have any training. I didn't,
you know, I just went in. I didn't, you know.
All I knew was like we had the meeting and
this is what's gonna happen, and you're gonna lose after
four and you know, just kind of go with it,
and Dussy would tell us what to do. But in
that match, I wasn't even listening.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 4: It's just kind of like I was in a I
was almost like a like a I was always like
an out of body experience totals. I never told anyone
I was going to do it. And then when I
showed up and and and went into the ring. Like
all my friends who were there, like wrestling fan friends
and Georgia Polatano who was there at ringside, and like
everyone was shocked when they saw me, like entering the ring. Yeah,
and I was kind of like, what am I doing?
Why am I here?
Speaker 2: Where did you get the gear from? You just to
borrow someone? Single?
Speaker 4: It was a place called K and H Wrestling Gear.
It was the place where everyone got their stuff. And
I got it, you know, single it, you know, Royal
blue single it in the boots.
Speaker 1: And and uh so you came to the building with
the gear. You just weren't sure that you were going
to get it's quote unquote booked.
Speaker 4: Well, Ernie the Whiz said that, all right, you're on
the card, you know, so you have to go see
my You got to see monsoon. You get here and
got it. And he just looked at me and he
knew who I was, and he goes, where have you wrestled?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 4: I was like down south? He goes a heel? Or baby,
I was like a heel, let's say a heel. Because
I didn't want to go in, you know, I didn't
want to go in as a baby face, because who
knows who I'd be working It wouldn't be Terror, would
it be whoever. And I knew I was gonna get
really roughed up if if I was in there as
a baby face, and who knows who I'd be working against?
But the one I asked, I didn't even know who
I was wrestling. And I asked the Wiz to find out,
and he was like Dusty Rhoades, like, oh no.
Speaker 2: A story.
Speaker 1: So this opens up something for us, John, that we
have wondered about for years on the show, right JP,
Like how do guys claim years later that they were
putting into the ring without really even being smartened up
to a significant degree, let alone knowing how to communicate
and take bumps? We watched these shows, John, and a
lot of these Jabroni's on the WWFTV tapings at this era.
They look worse than deer in headlights. They are sort
of ghost walking around the ring like zombies, just bumping
into Hulk Hogan over and over again and just doing
two or three spots. And it just boggles our mind
that people would be put into a ring on a
television taping for a major circuit like New York, let
alone the smaller territories too, and just still claim years
later when they do interviews that they were in the
ring and did not know how it worked. That just
didn't make any sense to us. It doesn't compute to us.
But it sounds like that was kind of your story.
Speaker 4: That's exactly what my story was. And maybe there are
a lot more guys like me who may have knew
somebody who wanted to give it a shot. Right, how
much harm could be done when you're told that you
know you're not going to get in the offense in
any way. And my mistake was trying to get offense
in with Dusty and the first thirty forty seconds of
the match, when I got them in the corner and
I just started name him, hitting him on top of
the head, and he threw SUSA out of the ring,
and then he just grabbed me by the hair and
he says, I got to teach you a lesson.
Speaker 2: Now did he say that figured you say it out loud?
Speaker 4: He said it in my ear.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 4: Ah, So I knew at that point I was probably
in trouble.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're on the roller coaster. There's no turning back.
Speaker 4: But I did become a hero at my college.
Speaker 2: I was a hero because are you kidding?
Speaker 4: When the match aired in our lobby, there was a
TV setup, so like the entire dorm was down in
the lobby at eleven am so they could see their
their friend get his ass whipped by Dusty Rhodes. So
people were cheering, and like I said, I had about
fifteen to twenty seconds of all but and after that
it was just kind of like I didn't you know,
it was just what it is, And anyone listening to
this you could watch it. It's there on YouTube. Just
go to Pro Wrestling Spotlight channel on YouTube and both
of those matches are up there with Fin's pickman On commentated,
you know this, BigMan commentated, Yeah, there's so much. Also
kind of surreal, knowing my relationship with him over the years,
for the years.
Speaker 1: When we help go there, Yeah, well let's go to
Hogan now. It was sort of it seemed to me
that if you got booted from photographing in February seventy eight,
that you wouldn't have been ringside when Hulk came in
November seventy nine. But knowing the territory as well as
you did, and watching every week and being a Rabbit
fan that knew it was like inside the garden and
felt the electricity of the Brunos, the superstars, the Bob Backlands.
Where did you perceive Hulk fitting in? Did he arrive
in New York with a fair degree of buzz from
people that were regulars in New York or was he
just like this completely new entity and this huge muscle guy.
What do you remember about his arrival?
Speaker 4: He was a huge muscle guy. And they put him
with Blassy, who I was very close with because I
ran Freddy's fan club and oh that's right, yeah, I
ran Blassi's fan club nineteen seventy two right through seventy five. Wow,
And so fred was with him, and it just was
impressed with Hogan because of his you know, his charisma
or than anything else. And he had all that hair shape,
you know, he carved that hair on his chest and
he was just totally different. And I did get the opportunity,
I think, to shoot his first match at Madison Square
Garden with Blassi there, so I you know, I have
those photographs and I think he was working with Renee Gulay.
If I'm not miss.
Speaker 1: First Match to the Garden was tedd to be AUSSI
in December seventy nine, but he did work Gulay in the.
Speaker 4: Garden, so yeah, but it was probably that's the show
I went to because all right, you know, I hadn't
shot ringside at the Garden since I got tossed out
of the air in seventy eight. But I was able
to come back for that few shows, and by that
time I was out of the business anyway. So but
I do have photographs of Hogan. Got to meet him
backstage of blasting, and he was nice, you know, and
I had you know, that's what I remembered about him,
you know, and you just kind of knew that the
guy was kind of special, right sure, how far was
he going to be pushed? And eventually look what happened.
Speaker 1: Was there any awareness that he was Sterling Golden on
TBS or that he had actually even wrestled Andre in
Alabama when he first came in in early seventy nine.
Do you remember any knowledge among the fan base of
what he had done prior?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 4: No, because at that time, after seventy eight, after I
had the entering experience and shot a few more times,
I was you know, getting ready to graduate from college
and move on with my life. And I kind of
saw wrestling as a place where it's like, all right,
I'm not going to wrestle, I'm not how much money?
Speaker 7: You know?
Speaker 4: What can I do? Can I survive on selling articles
and photographs for Ring Wrestling Magazine and getting fifty dollars
each time I published it? Had an article published? That
wasn't a way to make a living. And it was
such a closed industry that I would never be able
to get in. So I, you know, I focused my
attention on, you know, graduating and then getting a job
that I had wanted all my life was to work
for the New York Mets. And I got hired and
got placed in the minor leagues in eighty one and.
Speaker 1: Right in minor league and eighty one, and you were
doing what kind.
Speaker 2: Of work.
Speaker 4: I was the I was doing all of it. You know,
It's like sales, marketing, announcing housing ballplayers. I was officially
the public relations director of the Class A South Atlantic
League affiliated the New York Mets based in Shelby, North Carolina.
Speaker 2: Excellent, got it? JP? Were you going to pipe in there? Sorry? No,
I was just I was just I was just grunting reacting.
That's all noises.
Speaker 1: Odd Shae, because we just looked at the Shay Show,
John and what Hogan and Andre rib to do there,
and of course it was headlined by Zibisco and Bruno
and that was far and away that the main event
that night. But Hogan and Andre managed to create a
lot of buzz in that first year. Andre obviously had
you know, seen some success working with Hogan, as I
mentioned for Ron Fuller in Southeastern the spring of seventy
nine when Hulk was completely brand new to the business
for all intents and purposes, he had done some handful
of matches in seventy seven for Reddy Graham and then
basically quit in seventy eight, ran a bar, what was
part of a management team at a bar in Coco Beach,
Florida with Ed Leslie, and then he got back in
the business in early seventy nine. But come the Shaye
Stadium show, your memories of that, your memories of how
big Hogan, Andre felt, Visa vi Zybisco Bruno. Obviously with
your Mets connection, you know Shaye Stadium very well. What
can you tell us about you know, being a fan
at that time because we weren't We weren't watching. We
were infantile, if alive, not even I.
Speaker 4: Was following it and saw the lead up to that
Shay Card I was still watching on TV, of course,
even though it was actively involved. But I remember that
it was a pretty big deal. It was a very
big deal, not only the culmination of Zubisco Bruno, but
that Andre Hogan match. And I was not at the
Shay Stadium show, but I do remember the build up
and everything that happened after that. It was, as I said,
a pretty big deal.
Speaker 1: Did they do a good job of making the fans
think Hogan had a chance or did everyone look at
it and Andre's going to kill this guy?
Speaker 4: I would say that they pushed him where you thought
maybe he could, you know, go over. But that's of
course not what happened. But and then, of course revision
is history years later, like it never happened, you know, I.
Speaker 2: Ask you about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as someone was watching, you know, week to week
back then and saw Hogan come in the door, was
it strange disorienting for New York fans come eighty seven
when they start promoting Hogan and Andres having never wrestled
before having Andre having never been defeated, even though it
happened in the exact same company with Vince Junior there
on commentary. You know how disorienting and weird was that?
Or was it when they went with that sort of
marketing for WRESTLINGIA three?
Speaker 4: Well, you got to realize at that point the fan
base that it turned over, right when the national expansion
took place in the Rock and Wrestling Connection and the
Cindi Laupers and Whoko Madia, And it was kind of
like all the fans that were now into wrestling were
not the same fans at least for the vast majority
of them, were not the same fans that remembered Hogan
Andre back in eighty. It was a different fan base,
and those others, you know, those others that had been
with them for years, those fans were just kind of
like outpriced, and it become more of a show, and
you know, the currentain was slowly being torn down a
little bit. So it was a whole new generation of
people that began following and enjoying wrestling.
Speaker 2: But you but you knew about the previous ones and
so like what like are you are you saying yourself, Oh,
They're so full of shit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was saying they were so full of shit
because exactly because it was revisionous history, everything was erased,
you know, everything pre Huolco mania was erased, right like
it never happened.
Speaker 2: Was so crazy.
Speaker 1: What was your feeling on Backland because you were there,
you know, as he built up to winning the belt,
we talked to Zibisco, who was you know, he obviously
thought he could have the strap in eight and he
talks down Backland's drawing ability and things like that, and
you look at the Garden attendance and Backlan did very well.
I mean, it wasn't like he was like this precipitous
drop off from Pedro or Bruno. Of course, who's going
to be bigger than Bruno?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: But could you give us a sense of what it
was like during Bob's ascension and how he was received.
Did he feel big time box office despite you know,
being a little goofy.
Speaker 4: I never thought that Backland was world championship caliber, got it,
especially in New York. Maybe NWAA at the time, AWA,
maybe other federations, but certainly not in New York. And
I think that the biggest strategic mistake that was ever
made was not turning Billy Graham babyface during his because
people were cheering him more than booing him during his run.
But then Senior had that plan laid out that he
wanted this all American type to win the title after
Bruno decided to call it a day and Graham was
the transitional champion, and when the deal was made, it
was Graham knew he was going to win the title
on this day and lose the title to Bacclin in
February twenty seventy eight. But all the things that had
happened during Billy Graham's run really indicated that they should
have turned him babyface and he would have had a
tremendous run as a champion. And Backlin just never resonated
to me because he didn't cut a good promo right.
He was great, He was a great technical wrestler, but
I didn't think he had what it took to win
the title and especially to hold it as long as
he did, even though the box office indicated that he
was still a good draw. But back then there were
others that were like drawing people in, like the Dusty
Rhodes and Meil maskers and all the others that were
kind of you know, the undercard big performers that were
also box office straws.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's an excellent point. He had a very
strong supporting cast, perhaps more so than Bruno and Superstar did.
But yeah, put me in the arena, John, I mean,
you got to know Superstar very well. I mean, oh yeah,
when did you start to feel like they shouldn't take
the belt off the sky? Was it because were people
cheering him as a baby face? Like it's hard for
us to appreciate what it would have been like in
the garden around Superstar.
Speaker 4: It was unlike anything I've ever seen. It rivaled the
reaction for Bruno.
Speaker 1: And even though he was a heel, Yeah, he didn't
turned baby face and they were going nuts for him.
What's that He hadn't turned baby face and they were
going that nuts for him?
Speaker 2: Huh?
Speaker 4: He wasn't a baby face and they were going nuts
fro him. Yes, because he had Yeah, they loved him,
you know, they love to hate him, but they loved him,
and he drew more heat. I would say that Graham's
heat was just off the chart, and the only thing
I could compare it to during that ero was when
Bruno and Spiros Arion had that historic format series where
that was the most intense I had ever seen at
the Garden in all my years covering it was Bruno
Arion and intense.
Speaker 1: I mean, do people want it? Sounds to us watching
these tapes back from the seventies, in particular early seventies
when Bruno did a comeback, these people, John, do they
want blood? Do they want like, are they believing every
single punch when Bruno's in there or SuperStar's in there,
or they just kind of have as much fun as
possible or is it like a different level of sort
of like bloodlust?
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Different level people thought it was real. The vast majority,
I would have to say, eighty percent wow new that
well thought it was real, and the other twenty percent
knew but still loved it. But the heat that was
generated back then, you you know, you haven't seen since
that time period really, I mean, it was it was explosive.
It was every main event was explosive. And I was
fortunate enough to, you know, even to take a lot
of film footage back then, even pre photography days. I'd
sit as a fourteen year old and shoot matches on
eight milimeter camera like Andre's first match at the Garden
and Pedro Morales and all those great Everyone thought it
was real, and it was a very mixed ethnic audience,
especially when Morales had the title. It was probably Puerto
Ricans and Pedro Morales could never even lose the account
out of the Garden because they'd fear a riot. Wow,
that's how intense it was. When Pedro would be getting hummeled,
whether it was by Blassie or Don Leo Jonathan or
King Curtis or whoever he was in the ring with
the fans wanted blood. I mean they would be going crazy.
And the same thing when Bruno came back and won
the title. It was life or death for the fans
watching their hero and hoping that he'd win.
Speaker 1: That's sep that's what it seems like. It's it's amazing,
and that's what we pined for, is the days where
that was possible, you know, And it's nobody's fault that
wrestling can't feel like that anymore. I think it's probably
inevitable that at some point people would get smart to it,
especially in the digital information age. But my god, John,
I mean, can you blame anybody for wishing it was
still like that. That's a that's not a controversial statement.
I mean, how much better or was wrestling in that context?
Speaker 4: No comparison. I mean, you know, now you know everything
you have, you know, you have the documentaries, you got
the series of Unreal and everything is out in the open,
and that transition really started to happen, you know, after
newsletters and my shows like micro Wrestling Spotlight from eighty
nine to ninety five, where you know, the curtain was
torn down. But once people are getting smart to the business,
and once the business didn't care about keeping people out
of the know and making sure everybody knew that it
was it was not, you know, true real competition that
you know, even though it became immensely popular, and look
at the money that's being made today. That feeling when
you're in that arena and you see these fans going
absolutely crazy, it was unlike anything I ever experienced in
that excitement and that electricity and that energy. I remember
like it was yesterday, and it was a glorious time
for the business.
Speaker 1: When they would do TVs in Pennsylvania, Hamburg, Allentown, it
strikes us a lot going back and watching this stuff
that well, the people were absolutely nuts. At the Philly
Spectrum of the Boston Garden or Madison Square Garden, those
tapings were kind of subdued, you know, the crowds were
sort of observing it. I don't know, dare I say,
unless there was a really hot angle, almost like a
Japanese audience, where they're like just watching this display of wrestling.
Speaker 8: And yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Agreed to some point, but I disagree as well, because
you got to realize that when you're doing TV, you
don't have competitive matches. For the most part, that's true.
You have jobbers. You have jobbers putting guys over, making
them look good. And the promos were you know, the
promos were classic and unforgettable. But when you had tag
team and the main title was never switched on TV,
but tag team titles were good point and tag team
titles when let's say, for example, when Jimmy and Johnny
Valley and the Value Brothers beat Dean Ho and Tony Goria,
the place was phenomenal. And then when you know, when
Rocky Johnson, even when Rocky Johnson and Tony Atlas one title,
the fans were going crazy. When you had a competitive match,
and then the rare situations when Bruno would wrestle on TV.
The place was explosive, got it. And the only ones
that I really saw back then that would just rile
the fans up to this intense heat was when Blassy
would come to the ring, when he had his little
runs there in seventy one and then seventy three. There
were guys that just electrified the crowd. But when you
had a competitive match, that's when the fans would jump
on their feet.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah, you're right those I can picture the wooden
chair over the Simoones head and eighty three.
Speaker 4: Yep, yeah, I look at the fans. They were going,
they were going out of their minds, were out of
their minds.
Speaker 2: The as the one thing, what what what? What we've
noticed too in watching the different matches is that especially
obviously with with Hogan, is watching Hogan play in front
of a small television crowd and then play in front
of Madison Square Garden and Philly and how it's a
night and day performance. Like sometimes we watch these these
TV tapings and it's kind of like, yeah, he's big
and he's strong, but he he looks like a log
out there, like he's not. He's not a mooting he's
not there's nothing, you know, there's no there's no sense
of excitement and passion. But then you put them in
a big arena and it's like it's night and day.
Speaker 4: Well, when you're on TV, how could you rile the
fans up? And how can you as a performer give
your all when you're wrestling guys like John Anthony.
Speaker 2: Right, I'm not saying les get let's give them given all,
but like there's just a it's just a different of expression,
like I feel nothing from from him versus when he's.
Speaker 4: On Free It was like it was like you just
going through the motions for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Back to relative to uh Fred Blassie, you mentioned him again,
I'm glad you did, because I did want to ask you, uh,
you know, being close to Blassie as you were running
his fan club and knowing him kind of on a
personal level, did you ever get any sense of how
he felt about Hulk and and managing him. And it
was really interesting that Hulk, you know, he really wasn't
a strong promo, but he could cut a promo coming
in He had done it in Memphis and in Alabama,
beforehand and Georgia. Yet they put him with a mouthpiece
and they would you know, maybe seventy percent Blasty, thirty
percent hulk. H How did Blassie feel about serving that
role for this this newcomer.
Speaker 4: Well, that was that was just the business model back then,
that you put the heels with a mouthpiece, especially if
they were getting a push. And in all my conversation
with Fred and it was just another guy that they
put him with, right, it was not like it was
not unlike any of the other guys that Blassie had managed,
whether it was Arion or wolbov On Eric or any
of those guys that Blassie took on. Blassie just did
his job. He was a great mouthpiece. And and it
did surprise me when Blassie was assigned to Hogan just
because of you know, Hogan was not a traditional Blassy guy,
because most of Blassie's guys were from a different country.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, foreign menace, Yeah, that's true. How about Bruno
and Superstar, You got to know both of them very well.
They were They did some very memorable interviews with you
during the scandal era of w w F on your
spotlight show, and you knew them from the garden. Bruno
and Graham, how do they feel about Hulk in the
final analysis. I know with Graham he had ups and
downs with Hulk, but you know they went way back too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah. On the Graham side, it was just kind of
like he looked at Hogan as someone who really stole
was gimmick, yes, and Bruno just just didn't like Hogan.
He just didn't think that he was good for wrestling.
He was a showman more than a wrestler. And it
was kind of in that space where Bruno hated the
way that business was, the direction the business was going into,
so he never had anything kind to say about Hogan
and Graham the same thing.
Speaker 2: Really, Yeah, I certainly haven't heard a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like because Superstar had the bodybuilding
thing going and Hull kind of got to meet him
in Florida when he was also playing bass guitar and
training to wrestle. He gives Graham credit for kind of
making the introduction for his first break in seventy nine.
And of course we know Graham was out there in
public on your show and other forums calling out Hogan
for steroid use in the early nineties.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. But and also Hogan was
you know, Hogan stole all of Billy's even in ring
moves for the most you know, pointing to the crowd,
putting his ear up to you know, his hand up
to his ear. Graham did the same exact thing.
Speaker 2: Mm hm.
Speaker 4: You know, so all even the even the promo style
in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, you can tell it was.
Speaker 4: Hogan stole so much from Billy that it was you know,
it was laughable. Graham was the original and Hogan just
kind of you know, with the push that McMahon gave him.
And and I guess that's why Billy was so bitter
most of his life after leaving, is because that could
have been him.
Speaker 2: I wanted to get to that.
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned how they were closed minded to
Superstar having a babyface run in seventy eight. I mean,
it sounds to me like if they had been bought
in on just going with Superstars a babyface and following
the crowd, that we we would have seen what Hogan
did in eighty four just with Superstar in seventy eight.
I mean not to say it would have been to
the same heights and that he would have got the
same media profile. But I think the fans would have
reacted to Superstar as a babyface champion just like they
did Hogan in eighty four.
Speaker 4: No, yeah, I totally agree with that. But here's the
caveat why that didn't happen is because Vince McMahon, Vincent
Kennedy McMahon was not running the company. His father was right,
and his father had a whole different way of looking
at the wrestling business than his son did. So the
traditionalist that Vince Senior was and the innovator that Vince
Junior was was evident, and that Vince Junior was running
the show back during Graham's reign, he would have pushed
I'm confident he would have pushed Graham as he did
Hogan back in eighty four when he took the when
he got the company from his father.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I was sort of saying, if It's
Junior had the book in seventy eight, you know, he
could have run the playbook with with Superstar.
Speaker 4: Would have been a different story. Would have been a
different story.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You mentioned some of the lifting of the promo style.
I mean that is so evan. As we marched through
all the promos helped it in his earliest days. I mean,
he is trying actively to sound like Billy Graham. And
he wouldn't deny that either, at least in later years
he would he would he would.
Speaker 2: Cop to that, so to speak.
Speaker 1: But also there's the Austin Iidel factor. I don't know
how much you were able to get eyes on Austin.
Speaker 2: Idel back then, but I did. I did have eyes
on him idle Mania and all that.
Speaker 1: Is it more Austin Idol than Billy Graham, more Billy
Graham than Austin Idol?
Speaker 2: Fifty to fifty? What would you observe?
Speaker 4: I would say it was about it could have been
a fifty to fifty.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, what about Austin Idol Because we don't
have as much tape of him.
Speaker 2: Do you remember him doing that? Hult copied.
Speaker 4: I was kind of baud of it. And when he
worked for Www. Is Mike McCory, Yeah, as iron Ike McCord.
And he was big and he was you know, muscular,
and he was always thought that he deserved a much
bigger pushed and he'd gotten back then because he saw
the potential in him. You saw that this guy had it,
he could be a big star, but for whatever reasons,
he was not pushed and made his name his name
in other territories other than New York.
Speaker 2: All right, very good. So relative to.
Speaker 1: Graham and watching Hulk come up, you know, with the
with the gimmick, with the a lot of the mannerisms
and things like that, come ninety one or ninety pardon my,
my fogginess, when you would have had Graham on to
talk about the steroid stuff. Is he personally going after Hulk?
Is he personally more going after Vince?
Speaker 7: Like?
Speaker 1: How much is Hulk an animating force in what he's saying?
Or was Hulk just the guy who happened to be
on top when he felt like it was time to
call out steroid abuse and wrestling.
Speaker 4: Well, I think the way it really started, and you know,
Billy's not here to talk about it or defend it
or even expound on it. But when Billy came onto
my show in March of ninety it was to talk
about what steroids had done to him, how you know,
all of the health problems and how dangerous steroids was
and whatever the angle was Billy was pushing at the
time because Billy always had an angle. Oh yeah, that
was the that was the beginning of you know, him
trying to call attention out. And I had him on
my show and it was a heartfelt at the time.
I thought it was totally sincere and heartfelt that he
was now coming out to say that these wrestlers were
on steroids. Nothing was being done about it, and the
long term health implications were not you know, we're it
was a dead end. You were going to you were
going to mess yourself up if it long term steroid use.
And that was what happened. And then after Zaharian was
arrested and this scandals started to emerge, That's when that's
when Billy became more vocal and and then it really
started exploding towards the end of ninety early ninety one,
and then well ninety one was the trial of Zaharian,
and of course Billy got all of that publicity back then,
and then it led to Hogan on Arsenio and Hogan
lying and Billy. You know, then it just turned into
a media circus with accusations and then Billy would expound
on things that you know, weren't one hundred percent true either.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and he would cop to those in
this book later and maybe a little bit of an
extra selling on the limp when he took the stand
on the Zahorian trial.
Speaker 4: It was it was kind of interesting to see how
I picked I picked Billy up at the airport, and
he was struggling, but he was not you know, he
kind of you know, worked it as well.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's what you get with the wrestling community.
Speaker 2: For sure. With Billy.
Speaker 1: Did he hate help till the very end as far
as you know, there was.
Speaker 4: No law love loss there towards the end and not
at all. I mean, look the way Billy ended and
Billy you know, was in favor, out of favor, said lies,
came back and apologized. I mean it was just Billy
was doing everything to remain relevant and I hope that
people would help him financially.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that was sort of like sort of like
a proto GoFundMe. He was always on a GoFundMe campaign,
you know, not he was.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, but he had, you know, all these struggles
and he wasn't taken care of like nobody was, because
there wasn't you know, the retirement fund or health there
was nothing. Yeah, these guys of fended for themselves, and
when you were out, you were out, and you were
forgotten and who cared? You know, You're just another wrestler
that we used and spit out and.
Speaker 2: See you later.
Speaker 1: Was it hard for you to accept that Hulk was
the guy that was or was it like undeniable or
because you had known him before in a prior iteration
and he was much more limited. It was kind of like,
I can't buy this guy as the best wrestler.
Speaker 4: No, I never he had the charisma and obviously all
the mainstream publicity and everything that happened with the marketing
and Vince McMahon turning it into this mainstream entertainment show.
But I but I but once the steroids stuff, once
that knowledge started and you saw these guys in the
ring and the guys that were being pushed who were
just extremely huge and on obviously on steroids, that's when
my you know, my love for the business dissipated. And
all I was trying to do after I started the
radio show was to kind of call attention to the
you know, the good stuff in the business, but also
the bad stuff in the business. The way wrestlers retreated.
The way these guys were being kind of not you know,
no one put a gun to their head, but when
you're told, you know, you got to see the doctor,
as was told to Rick Rude, to get bigger. These
were the ways wrestlers were being pushed. And the bigger
you are, the bigger the push you were going to get.
And that's what I that's when I really started to
have a strong dislike for the entire industry. It was
when I saw what was going on and that nothing
was being done to promote and to push performers who
actually were good wrestlers and had good promo skills. It
seemed like if you were a big monster, you were
getting the push, and then everybody was on them too.
So it was just just turned the business into this
into this place of like, look at it, it's a circus.
It's not what I knew growing up.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's great to get that perspective again from you, John,
because we can watch the tapes, but to talk to
someone who paid very close attention and that actually got
sort of on the inside of the businesses, there's no
substitute for that.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: I want to close by asking you about something I
think epitomizes the factors you're talking about when this all
went down. Hogan and Andre the first time they wrestled
in Shay and they rematched in the Garden on September
twenty second, nineteen eighty. I wasn't the headliner that night.
The headliner that night was Harley Rays versus Bob Backland,
NWA Champion versus WWF Champion.
Speaker 2: It boggles the.
Speaker 1: Mind when you consider, you know, Vince Junior's reputation for
never acknowledging the existence of any other champion or the
NWA at all. To see him sit there at the
tapings and extol the virtues of Harley Race as a
world champion, you know, perhaps on par with Bob Becklin.
That there's an argument as to which is superior, and
it's happening on WWFTV and it's headlining Madison Square Garden.
Speaker 2: That's part of what was lost as well.
Speaker 1: Could you go back maybe to that and how the
WWF fans in New York thought about the NWA World
Champion not as sort of an adversary or somebody who
was a pretender, but as someone who could show up
at the Garden and potentially beat the WWF champion.
Speaker 4: And you're talking about what year again, this would.
Speaker 2: Have been nineteen eighty as well Harley had come in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was when WWWF was really part of NWA, right,
and that was Vince McMahon, I mean, in that NWA
Championship was kind of the real world championship if you
were a fan, I mean all the magazine, NWA was
the world champion, even though the WWWF title it was
a regional title, it wasn't a world title. NWA. I mean,
guy like Harley Race went all over the country and
around the world defending that title, where the WWWF title
was just really regional. So when you had that opportunity
to bring the NWA champion against the WWWF champion at
the time, that was a big deal because it was
kind of like, Wow, maybe we're seeing something that would
be on a regular basis where an NWA champion started
to wrestle more at the guard and integrate himself into
the Northeast. So as a fan a student of the
of the of the business even back then, that was exciting.
So yeah, Hogan being on the undercard that main event
was justified. Would Race versus back.
Speaker 1: On Yeah, I think as fans that came along later
post the national expansion, just to think of the fact
that the belt was called the Worldwide Wrestling Federation Belt,
that that the fans kind of thought of it as
a world title on par with the NBA title. But
you're saying even in New York they saw the NWA
titles as a degree bigger.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I would say one hundred percent of them, right.
I'm so there was a good majority of them that
were like because everybody read the magazines back then, you know,
the wrestling magazines, and they would be pushing the world
championship at the time was was whoever? The NWA champion
was great stuff.
Speaker 1: Well, wrapping up here, John, I'd love your thoughts on
your reaction to the passing of Hulk Hogan. All that
you you know, the many different vantage points you observed
him from in his in his life and times, and
the people you talk to about him and talking to him.
What was what went through your mind? What was your
reaction when you heard he passed away last August.
Speaker 4: I was sad, and you know he passed way too young.
But once again, you got to look at those years
of steroid a Brouce to kind of say, well, maybe
that had something to do with it, but it was
it was sad to see that, you know, a guy
that actually for insider insiders knew what this guy was
all about. It was sad to see him passing. And
I did watch the four part documentary, which was good
at a lot of points in it, but also a
bunch of garb which it was a bunch of lies.
Speaker 2: We call it The Incomplete Hulkgan.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was. And but it was sad. It
was totally sad because he meant so much to so
many people who grew up with him during that era.
You know, he was hul Cogan, he was Whokee Mania,
he was the guy. He was the invincible one, and
and and towards the end of that life and a career,
it actually hurt when I saw him getting booed at
the Garden and in that last where it was la
maybe then I then I watched that show and I
was kind of like, uh, it may be uncomfortable because
of what he did mean to the business for those
big monster years that he had.
Speaker 2: Do you think do you think he should have kept
out of the expressing his political opinions.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Yeah, because hey, listen, no matter what your political
viewpoints are, you're going to alienate, right, fifty or seventy percent,
depending on what side your art and what you believe,
you're going to annlienate too many people. And when he
made it a point and that's the other thing, was
that sincere or was he just promoting the beer right?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 2: Exactly?
Speaker 4: But you don't you don't even know, you don't even know,
like you know, he's is he to get the rub
from uh, from Donald Trump and that and that and
that audience and he's promoting real American beer? Was you know,
was that a strategic thing that he said, well, I'm
going to get the rub now because I'm promoting this
beer company and uh, and so it backfired in a
major way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have of all the things he fixed himself
to just to get you know, uh.
Speaker 4: That's a bad lasting, that's that's a bad last appearance. Yeah,
the timing everything he did in his life, in his career,
that that finale of his of his public run that
night was sad and you look at poor Jimmy Hart
didn't know what the hell was going on, and it
just I wish it never happened.
Speaker 2: What did you make of him in the documentary talking
about how he loved being booed and saying he could
work at last, work at crowd one more time in
La as a heel.
Speaker 4: Well, that was a why Yeah, he wanted to be cheered.
That was like, you know, he wasn't going to be
working or wrestling, but who you know, it wasn't nw al,
It wasn't how great that angle was when he turned
heel for the very first time after the after whopal Mania.
But I think that was just bullshit because he didn't
want to get booed, and you could tell that he
was like, holy shit, they're booing me.
Speaker 2: That's right. That's kind of the sad to me that
that's also one of the one of the sad things
about the business, how you can't It's like, why couldn't
he just say in that documentary, you know what, it hurt,
it's stung, Yes, be honest, But he couldn't do it.
He had to had to play it off.
Speaker 4: He could never be honest, and that's that's the most
tragic thing about the life that this man led and had.
He could never be honest. He could never just say
I was Hulk Hogan. I was the best at during
this time period. I drew more money than anyone ever did.
I sold more merchandise than anyone ever did. And he
he just couldn't and be honest, he couldn't leave it
at that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you quickly, did you ever,
in all your time covering all the scandals and everything,
seek comment from Hulk himself?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 8: What was that?
Speaker 7: Like?
Speaker 4: I always tried, you know, I try to get Vince on,
I try to get Hogan on during all of that,
so at least I can give them a forum to
talk about their viewpoints in their cibity. He never, you know,
they never consented. It was almost like I was a
public enemy number one at that point for them. I
only had one conversation really with Hogan, and that was.
Speaker 6: And that was.
Speaker 4: When I was promoting overseas tours and this was ninety
three ninety four, and there was interest from a promoter
in Southeast Asia who wanted whole Cogan on the show.
And I reached out and to see, you know, if
he'd be interested. And we had a pleasant conversation and
he knew who I was. And but he was like, hey, brother,
I need one hundred grand and I needed upfront, and
the promoters overseas weren't willing to dip that far into
a pool to pay somebody one hundred grand up front
before you know the show took place.
Speaker 2: Is this him coming off leaving Vincent ninety three? Is
that what I heard?
Speaker 4: Yeah? That was Yeah. I promoted Southeast Asia in June
July ninety three and then there was a yeah, it
was right. It was after that. It was probably end
of ninety three, early ninety.
Speaker 1: Four, one between w W S and w W Yeah,
and that's so we have his as it was in between.
It was in between wonderful stuff. Well, you mentioned quickly
John the lies right in the documentary, and JP pointed
one out there with with you know, claiming he wanted
to be uh just as happy to be booted in
las as cheered. What else jumps right to mind? I mean,
I don't need a full litany, but I'm interested in
your what struck you right away and still sticks with
you after watching that series, it's just like complete bullshit.
Speaker 4: So much you know, where do you start? Yeah, there
was so much of it that was just his storyline
and the way he looked at reality so throughout, throughout,
even though there was some really good moments in it,
and it was enjoyable to watch if you didn't know
how if you if you didn't have a deep knowledge
of the history, then you could enjoy it as a fan.
But I enjoyed it too, But I I just saw
so many things that were not true and things stories
that were changed and facts that were altered, and the
fact that his daughter wasn't a part of it was
there was a big, big omission and a big mistake
and and it was it was a circus in its
own way, that entire documentary series.
Speaker 2: It uh to me there was one big not to
go off on this whole thing, But there was a
there was a in the middle, and this was just
like the Vince McMahon series. There's a middle where it
suddenly like it just stops being really about the person
and it's about the business. You know. It's like it's
just it just stops being about what was going on
with that person and who that person was, and it's
just rehashing dates and moments and times and stuff, and
it's just like you kind of it loses itself and
it maybe it was a distraction. I don't know, but
it's I always hate when when when these documentaries do that.
Speaker 4: Oh, I agree with you. I mean, look at the
Hogan thing. It was you know, it was his project, right.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that came across a lot and clearer at
the end. It's like, okay, yep, he actually had a
huge hand and where things didn't didn't go. Did you, John,
did you remember w w F fans knowing that Hulk
went to the AWA in eighty one and where he
had gone and what he was doing transforming into this
super baby face. I mean, I'm sure you guys knew
about Rocky three and everything, But was the a w
A separate and distinct enough back then that ww F
fans wouldn't have known what he went on to do.
Speaker 4: I think at that point they probably wouldn't know at least,
And I have to, I have to, you know, preface
this by saying that even I stopped following it, I
was I was done eighty one, I was done, I
was out. I was working for the Mets. Then I
got into the music business, right and it was it
wasn't until it wasn't until eighty five that I attempted
to get back in and that didn't last. But you know,
and then by the time I really got back in
in eighty nine, you know that, you know, those eighties,
those early to mid eighty years where I have no
recollection because I didn't I just didn't watch.
Speaker 2: Sure, Sure, that's that's clear. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was always a subject of fascination to us that
while we can watch the a WA stuff now and
literally see Hulkamania start and him living, Yeah, the Rocky.
Speaker 4: Three things, I've seen some of the some of the
videos recently, matter of fact, from the Minneapolis area and
Hope really becoming hok Hogan during that time, poun I'm
fascinated by it, and I'm fascinated by the heat of
the crowd and the excitement that was being generated, and
that was you know, that was a transition to him,
and especially after Rocky three, My goodness, I mean that
was he was he was over.
Speaker 2: He was over.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Heading to the next leg of our journey. Perhaps as
we wrap nineteen eighty and looking through all Hulkogan did
in the restling business and beyond, John Arezi so kind
to join us here to reflect on his unique vantage
point of this time period in WWF and the New
York territory. It was a pleasure having you on Man.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much.
Speaker 4: You're quite welcome.