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Jump chump 47 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:06.480 a casino dot com turns condition Deals. 48 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.840 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 49 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:21.960 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 50 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:29.319 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 51 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:33.039 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 52 00:02:33.159 --> 00:02:37.360 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 53 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:40.520 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 54 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:54.599 Good Evening from the author of Serial Killers, The Method 55 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:58.400 and Madness of Monsters comes an in depth examination of 56 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:03.199 sexual serial killers throughout human history, how they evolved, and 57 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.680 why we were drawn to their horrifying crimes. Before the 58 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:09.800 term was coined in nineteen eighty one, there were no 59 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:14.719 serial killers. There were only monsters. Killer society first understood 60 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:20.439 as werewolves, vampires, ghouls and witches, or later hitchcaki and psychos. 61 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:24.000 In Sons of Cain, a book that fills the gap 62 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:29.479 between dry academic studies and sensationalized true crime, investigative historian 63 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:33.199 Peter Vronsky examines our understanding of serial killing from its 64 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:39.520 prehistoric anthropological evolutionary dimensions in the pre civilization era fifteen 65 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:44.120 thousand BC to today, delving further back into human history 66 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.439 and deeper into the human psyche than serial killers. Vronsky's 67 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.120 two thousand and four book, which has been called the 68 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:54.520 Definitive History of serial murder, he focused strictly on sexual 69 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:59.960 serial killers thrill killers who engage in murder, rape, torture, cannibalism, 70 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:04.080 and necrophilia, as opposed to for profit serial killers, including 71 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:09.360 hitmen or political serial killers like terrorists or genocidal murderers. 72 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:14.080 These sexual serial killers differ from all other serial killers 73 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:19.040 in their motives and their foundations. They are uniquely human and, 74 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:23.920 as popular culture has demonstrated, uniquely fascinating. The book that 75 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:27.360 we're featuring this evening is Sons of Cain, A History 76 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.240 of serial Killers from the Stone Age to the Present, 77 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:35.439 with my special guests, journalist and author, filmmaker and investigative 78 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:39.199 historian Peter Vronsky. Welcome to the program, and thank you 79 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:44.040 very much for agreeing to this interview. Peter Frois fine, 80 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:47.399 thank you, Thank you very very much. This is very exciting. 81 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:52.000 As I put on Facebook as a preview for this program, 82 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:56.000 this is a book for every true crime fan, no 83 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:59.439 matter where you are in the evolution of your sort 84 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:03.639 of fascination with true crime. So I'm very very excited 85 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:05.800 to have you on and talk about this very very 86 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:07.959 incredible book, Sons of Kin. 87 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:12.000 Thank you very much, it's a pleasure being on there. 88 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:12.759 It's good. 89 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:16.959 Thank you you start this book. And before we get 90 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:21.800 into this again, like I mentioned, incredible book, let's talk 91 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:25.279 about As you open the book with discussing your first encounter, 92 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:28.040 you said you had three encounters random encounters with serial 93 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:31.160 killers in your life, which is amazing. But as it 94 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:33.839 I think it's important as you write in your book 95 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:37.199 to talk about December nineteen seventy nine in New York. 96 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:39.519 What. 97 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:41.360 Yes, you've written a book about it called The Times 98 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:44.600 Square Torso Ripper. Tell us about this encounter. What you 99 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.560 what happened that day in December nineteen seventy nine, and 100 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:50.959 that what you found out shortly after? Tell us this 101 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:54.800 incredible story. As you write in the book Sons of Kin, Well. 102 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:57.839 You know, it's almost like every one of my books 103 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:03.720 begins with this particular encounter that I had with serial 104 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:07.959 killer Richard Cottingham. It's kind of the alpha and omega 105 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:14.199 of my writing essentially. And this was, you know, I 106 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:16.959 was trying to check into this hotel in New York. 107 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:21.639 This was you know, before the words serial killer had 108 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:26.399 been popularly coined. Certainly law enforcement was using that term, 109 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.920 but I had never heard it myself as just an 110 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:37.560 ordinary guy, right. And so I encountered in the elevator 111 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:43.560 doors an individual who had murdered two women in his room. 112 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:50.279 He had severed their heads and their hands and set 113 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:54.439 fire to their torsols and and then fled with the heads, 114 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:00.319 kind of bumping into me in the elevator doors in 115 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.680 the lobby as I was waiting to go up. So, 116 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:07.240 you know, he kind of annoyed me because he had 117 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:11.120 held up the elevator. You know, I'm impatient. I want to, 118 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:14.560 you know, go in, take a walk around, decide if 119 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.560 I want to stay in this place or not. So 120 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:20.240 you know, who's holding up the elevator. So I kind 121 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:23.319 of gave him a hard look when the doors opened, 122 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:28.399 and he didn't he didn't look me in the eye. 123 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:31.959 He kind of was as if I was invisible almost. 124 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:36.519 He just walked through me, bumping me on the shins 125 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:39.800 with some kind of soft bag he was carrying, which 126 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:44.120 you know, felt like to me at the time, felt 127 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:49.000 like he was carrying bowling balls in this bag. When 128 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:51.839 you know, I didn't pay much more attention to him. 129 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:56.959 I chose to go to the floor where he had 130 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:00.399 held up the elevator, just a grandom, you know. And 131 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:06.480 so once I got off at his floor, I immediately smelt, 132 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:12.399 you know, something burning, and I thought at first, well, 133 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:15.959 you know, that's how this place probably smells, right, And 134 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:19.399 then shortly after fire alarms go off and and and 135 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:23.199 so you know, we have to evacuate the hotel. And 136 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:25.879 as I come out into the street, the fire department 137 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:29.480 is arriving, and I figured, well, I'm not gonna stay here, 138 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:34.879 and so I went stayed somewhere else, without knowing what 139 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.159 had occurred at that hotel. The next morning, I go 140 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:43.679 in where I have to be, and in the lobby 141 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:47.440 there are all these newspapers from you know, morning papers, 142 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:53.399 and there it is, you know, these stories about how torsoles, 143 00:08:54.360 --> 00:09:00.000 headless torsos set on fire, discovered in that very hotel. 144 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:05.240 While I was checking into I did not think at 145 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:10.200 all of the guy I had encountered on the elevator, 146 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:13.480 you know, because you don't think that way. We know 147 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:17.960 that's what serial killers do today. You know that they 148 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:22.240 walk among us and and and you know, I probably 149 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:25.080 had I known the notion of serial killers, would have 150 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:28.159 immediately thought and the guy I had passed by a 151 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:32.120 few minutes before I went up, But I didn't think 152 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:36.720 that way, and and and so for for over a year, 153 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:40.559 my story, as I told it over dinners and drinks 154 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:43.120 to my friends, was, you know how I ended up 155 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.039 trying to check into a hotel where there were these 156 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:55.960 torsos set on fire. A year later, he's apprehended and 157 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:00.519 I see his picture in the newspaper, and of course 158 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:03.320 I recognized the guy, not so much by his face, 159 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:06.320 but you know, by that haircut he had. There was 160 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:12.360 they had this weird haircut that immediately kind of caught 161 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:17.440 my attention, and so I recognized my got you know, 162 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:20.120 the guy I had bumped into the elevator, that that 163 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:23.639 was him. And of course it made sense in terms 164 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:27.279 of the timeline. So, you know, from that point on, 165 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:32.159 I it became very interested with you know, what these 166 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:36.639 monsters were, like, where were they coming from? You know, 167 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:41.320 we had all sorts of different words for serial killers, 168 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:46.720 from you know, recreational killers, multiple killers, we called them 169 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:50.360 stranger on strangers killers because we thought, you know, they 170 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:55.159 only killed strangers. We know better now, but the term 171 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:59.159 serial killer still had not been around. So I kind 172 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:04.679 of entered this field exploring this notion of where these 173 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:10.919 kind of Alfred Hitchcock movie monsters are coming from, and 174 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:16.919 and that led to my kind of historical inquiries into 175 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:20.240 what these guys are, what they're all about. 176 00:11:21.879 --> 00:11:25.000 It's very interesting you write that you said much of 177 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:29.480 the current literature and serial killers disavowsed the monster construct, 178 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:34.639 trying to humanize the killers despite their monstrous acts. And 179 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:37.440 you said for this book, you said, you started from 180 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:41.600 the opposite pole. Yeah, just understand how you explain. 181 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:46.759 That, Yeah, exactly, because for me, there were monsters from 182 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:50.799 the beginning, and so I kind of had to find 183 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:56.600 these human features among them. Unlike you know, a lot 184 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:04.879 of criminologists psychopathology today, of course start from the human 185 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:10.240 part of it. They haven't really experienced the kind of 186 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:15.240 the pre scientific era of you know, serial killers. And 187 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.320 of course they've been monsters since the beginning of time, 188 00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:23.639 you know, thousands of monsters. We just didn't call them 189 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:26.600 serial killers, right. 190 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:30.639 You also, early on in the book introduced and you 191 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:35.639 later discuss reasons for in your hypothesis for this surge, 192 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:37.639 and you talk about the serial killer surge of the 193 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:41.720 nineteen seventies to the nineteen eighties up to almost the 194 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:47.240 twenty nineteen ninety nine, say eighty two percent, eighty two 195 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.879 percent of those serial killers appear between nineteen seventy to 196 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:53.720 two thousand. 197 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:58.960 Of twentieth century American serial killers in just those three decades. 198 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:04.440 This is where you know, our Ted Bundy's and John 199 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:09.879 Wayne Gacy's and Jeffrey Dahmers, all these names with which 200 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.799 we are so familiar with, you know, if you want 201 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:19.639 to call them, that the superstar serial killers come out 202 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:23.799 of this this age and age that uh, you know, 203 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:27.919 my colleague Harold Scheckter had had coined, uh, this term 204 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:31.799 that you know, that's the golden age of serial murder. 205 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:35.759 And and indeed, you know, we're beginning to lose track 206 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:41.919 of these personalities today where back you know, in those decades, 207 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:50.480 guys like Author Shawcross, uh, Edmund Temper, all these you know, uh, 208 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:56.240 Henry Lee Lucas, all these serial killers were packed tightly 209 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:59.799 into that period. And and of course the mystery was, 210 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.320 and I guess still is, because all I can offer 211 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:11.200 hypothesis why in those three decades, and you know, we 212 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:16.840 often associated it with society of those eras you know, 213 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:22.080 for example, the nineteen sixties kind of being this new 214 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:30.080 sexual permissiveness rebellion, the nineteen seventies, this kind of hedonistic decay, 215 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:37.480 the nineteen nineties, the greed decade, and so forth. We 216 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:42.120 never really quite understood, however, how that, you know, how 217 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:47.120 that made people kill. And one of the things as 218 00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:50.240 I was researching, began to occur to me is, well, 219 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:57.279 wait a minute. Serial killers are essentially formed in their childhood, 220 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:04.519 and the statistical norm when a serial killer first kills 221 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:10.240 is usually around twenty seven twenty eight years old. So 222 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:15.600 if they're formed in their childhood between as early as 223 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:20.120 the age of five to the age of fourteen roughly, 224 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:25.600 and then nurture for all this time for up to 225 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:30.279 twenty years their fantasies before they crossed the line and killed, 226 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:35.120 you have to take those golden age serial killers, and 227 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:39.000 you got to back them up twenty years. And so 228 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:43.240 we're talking about guys that are being born during the 229 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:48.360 nineteen forties and nineteen fifties, being raised in that era 230 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:53.000 and in that culture. And so as I began to 231 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:58.120 look at, you know, what was it like for kids 232 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:02.960 to be brought up in forties and the fifties. You know, 233 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.600 a couple of things struck me. One was, of course, 234 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:13.360 is you know, the all these families broken first by 235 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:17.679 the Great Depression. You have a lot of unemployed men 236 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:21.799 who've lost their pride, lost their sense of self, lost 237 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:26.440 their families in the thirties, Then you go into the 238 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.120 Second World War, which you know, we have still this 239 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:33.120 kind of Hollywood perception of the Second World War as 240 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:36.399 kind of the last good war that we had fought 241 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:42.600 somehow the enemy was primitive and savage and genocidal, but 242 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:50.519 we fought honorably. Right. That, you know, is something that 243 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:55.639 we're revaluating now over the last twenty decades. We begin 244 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.120 to realize that to fight that kind of enemy we fought, 245 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.960 we had to be pretty primitive and savage ourselves. And 246 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:09.400 so we began to look at, you know, in in 247 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:12.440 in the early two thousands, historians began to look at, 248 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:19.400 you know, war crimes rapes committed by our side, by 249 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:25.079 g I s in territories where we were liberating, for example, 250 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:28.240 in Italy and France and and and and so forth, 251 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:37.319 and as well in the Pacific. This this incredible UH 252 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:42.880 activity of beheading uh the enemies dead and collecting their 253 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:46.480 their skulls and bringing their skulls back home to the 254 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:54.039 United States kind of war trophy, species of necrophilia UH. 255 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:58.799 And and and so I began to look as as 256 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:03.799 much as you can at those serial killer fathers UH 257 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:07.559 from that era. And and whenever there I could find 258 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:14.160 an account. Often I discovered that that these kids talk about, 259 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.319 you know, their father coming home from the war and 260 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:24.480 and being isolated, kind of sullen, not being able to 261 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:28.759 talk about about the war. And indeed, you know, today, 262 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:32.799 of course we've diagnosed PTSD since the Vietnam War, But 263 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.839 in the Second World War, there, you know, there was 264 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:39.440 no such thing. And and so moreover, at the end 265 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:43.000 of the Second World War, we were very quickly expecting 266 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:46.119 perhaps to go into World War three, uh, to fight 267 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:49.200 uh the Soviet Union, the Russians and and and so 268 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.559 our returning soldiers, very many of them just had to 269 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:57.079 suck up that trauma UH and keep it to themselves. 270 00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:01.079 And and and so you do find, certainly, not all, 271 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:05.799 but you certainly find, you know, a generation that fought 272 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:09.519 in that war and had to just repress it. And 273 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:13.519 of course that takes a toll on you, takes a 274 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:17.200 toll on your family. It takes a toll on the 275 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:21.559 kids you're you're raising. I'm sure you know, people listening 276 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.880 to this of my own age, you know, baby boomers 277 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:29.400 who had fathers or grandfathers who fought in the Second 278 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:33.359 World War. I think I have a sense of you 279 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:38.000 know what I'm talking about, this this kind of sullen 280 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.920 silence about their experience in the war. Very few will 281 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.440 we'll talk about it. And of course as a historian, 282 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:49.839 I've talked at least to Canadian soldiers who fought in 283 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:52.839 the Second World War. The statistics we have are on 284 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:58.640 American gis, but Canadian soldiers have told me similar things 285 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:02.480 from that era that yes, of course, you know, when 286 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.240 we were fighting the Nazis, sometimes we had to fight 287 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:10.000 them the way they fought, and you know, all sorts 288 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:15.000 of violations were committed on the battlefield, you know, vis 289 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:20.519 are the taking POW's for example, stories that are still 290 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:25.680 non acknowledged and not somehow on the record as to 291 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:29.200 exactly how that war was fought. So I think it 292 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:33.079 had a tremendous impact among other things, because it's never 293 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:38.240 one single thing. You know, there was a post war 294 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:44.559 culture as well, of kind of popular rape literature, talking 295 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:49.640 about men's adventure magazines that would feature on the cover 296 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:56.599 usually this painted image of a woman somehow subdued about 297 00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:01.599 to be tortured, raped and murdered, either by you know, 298 00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:08.960 Pacific cannibals or by Japanese later by Korean troops or Nazis. 299 00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:13.599 But it was always this book some female who is, 300 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:18.599 like I said, restrained and tortured. And then you had 301 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:23.519 at the same time these two crime magazines, and these 302 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:28.799 would also feature a photograph of a model posing as 303 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:32.359 if she's a victim of a sex crime, often looking 304 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:38.319 from the cover of the magazine outwards towards the buyer, 305 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:42.839 as if it's the buyer who's about to victimize her. 306 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:47.920 And so, you know, the FBI, you know, it described 307 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:54.079 Detective True Detective magazines as pornography for serial killers, because 308 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:57.359 as as they were arresting these guys in the seventies 309 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:03.759 and eighties, it's you know, andrewed reading material for many 310 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:07.680 of these guys. And this is not stuff that was 311 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:14.519 sold underneath the counter. It wasn't explicitly pornographic, which perhaps 312 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:19.039 made it worse. It was implicitly sexual, and and so 313 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:25.160 it fed kind of fantasy scripting. It fed the imagination, 314 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:30.079 and so you know, you have combinations of factors and 315 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:34.119 things that come together. It's never one single thing. 316 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:37.359 It is Ryan here and I have a question for you. 317 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:39.519 What do you do when you win? 318 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:40.039 Like? 319 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:43.160 Are you a fis pumper, a will or a hand clapper, 320 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:45.039 a high fiver? I kind of like the high five. 321 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:46.839 But if you want to hone in on those winning moves, 322 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:50.079 check out Chumba Casino at chumbacasino dot com. 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We're prohibited by Law eighteen plus. 341 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:33.839 Terms and conditions apply. 342 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:35.359 See website for details. 343 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:41.880 Now, let's get to a more specific thing that you 344 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:48.640 you go into into the book, and that's Sexual serial Killers. 345 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:56.160 And you talk about psychopath psychopathia, sexualists, the psychology of lust, 346 00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:01.759 murder Richard Kraft Ebing and he categorizing and catalog the 347 00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:05.720 wide range of sexual crimes and disorders, and he's found 348 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:12.680 almost exclusively of males, paraphilias, obsessions for particular type of sex, 349 00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:18.880 or being aroused by partialism or fetishes. So you talk 350 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:25.119 about you talk about the sexual serial killers and also 351 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:31.039 their formation. So as you talk about that there's a 352 00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:34.920 small minority of people convicting or that were perpetrating these 353 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.799 crimes in wartime, whether it was in the Pacific or 354 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:40.319 in World War Two, but you said that almost all 355 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:44.119 of these men had to witness or werewity to some 356 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:46.039 of these atrocities, and like you say, you had to 357 00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:49.559 absorb that trauma. That trauma was never dealt with. And 358 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:52.359 so then you have a generation of kids that were 359 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:56.480 just not raised by fathers properly. Part of the problem. 360 00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:58.400 Then we talk about some of these other things. But 361 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:02.119 when we talk about these kinds of people with paraphilias, 362 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:07.200 we're talking about an even rare subset of perpetrators, aren't we. 363 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.640 That's right, yeah, And and again we're not sure how 364 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:16.039 paraphilias are formed, but but we can kind of guess 365 00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:20.519 at it. I give the example of Jerry Bruder, who 366 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:28.680 had a paraphilia for women's feet and high heel shoes. Now, 367 00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:32.880 you know, I don't know about you, but I kind 368 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.559 of get a rise out of that myself. Right. The difference, 369 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:41.240 of course, is for Jerry Bruders, he's shamed in that 370 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:45.359 and and and so he's a feeling that he has 371 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:51.079 to surreptitiously practice this and eventually he is going to 372 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:54.680 be actually abducting women and cutting off their feet and 373 00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:58.200 keeping them in a freezer in a high heel shoe. 374 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.000 That's the point he reaches. But the story of how 375 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:10.319 he at least reports to psychiatrists how he first slipped 376 00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:15.079 into that paraphelia was around the age of five. He 377 00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:17.960 had found a pair of high heeled shoes in a dump, 378 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:23.240 and out of curiosity, at children's curiosity, you know, brought 379 00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:27.480 them home. You know, he saw other women wearing you know, 380 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:30.119 high heel shoes, and and and and so he's just 381 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:32.960 curious about him. And so he puts these high heel 382 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:37.119 shoes on and walks into the kitchen where his mother 383 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:43.920 is preparing dinner. And here's problem number two for little Jerry. 384 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:48.720 His mother doesn't particularly like him or want him as 385 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:53.039 a son. She wanted a daughter. So already we have issues. 386 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:56.400 On top of that, he's got a learning disability, uh too, 387 00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.640 So you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a number of things. 388 00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:06.720 When his mother sees this five year old boy tottering 389 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:10.680 around in these high heel shoes, she completely freaks out, 390 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:18.000 and so she tells him he's wicked. She punishes him, 391 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:23.400 and she takes the shoes, and she ritualizes this kind 392 00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:27.839 of burning of the shoes. And so, combined with the punishment, 393 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:34.119 combined with already his mother's disdain for him, a learning disability, 394 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:38.160 and who knows what else, a little five year old 395 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.599 Jerry Brutus now is set for the rest of his 396 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:46.480 life with this fetish for high heel shoes, something prohibited, 397 00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:50.839 something his mother had had burned. And so he'll struggle 398 00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:53.759 with that for you know, the rest of his life 399 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:58.640 as other factors begin to combine as as well. You know, 400 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:04.160 when he's public school, he ends up stealing a pair 401 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:07.680