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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 7: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 8: Good Evening from the author of Serial Killers, The Method
Speaker 8: and Madness of Monsters comes an in depth examination of
Speaker 8: sexual serial killers throughout human history, how they evolved, and
Speaker 8: why we were drawn to their horrifying crimes. Before the
Speaker 8: term was coined in nineteen eighty one, there were no
Speaker 8: serial killers. There were only monsters. Killer society first understood
Speaker 8: as werewolves, vampires, ghouls and witches, or later hitchcaki and psychos.
Speaker 8: In Sons of Cain, a book that fills the gap
Speaker 8: between dry academic studies and sensationalized true crime, investigative historian
Speaker 8: Peter Vronsky examines our understanding of serial killing from its
Speaker 8: prehistoric anthropological evolutionary dimensions in the pre civilization era fifteen
Speaker 8: thousand BC to today, delving further back into human history
Speaker 8: and deeper into the human psyche than serial killers. Vronsky's
Speaker 8: two thousand and four book, which has been called the
Speaker 8: Definitive History of serial murder, he focused strictly on sexual
Speaker 8: serial killers thrill killers who engage in murder, rape, torture, cannibalism,
Speaker 8: and necrophilia, as opposed to for profit serial killers, including
Speaker 8: hitmen or political serial killers like terrorists or genocidal murderers.
Speaker 8: These sexual serial killers differ from all other serial killers
Speaker 8: in their motives and their foundations. They are uniquely human and,
Speaker 8: as popular culture has demonstrated, uniquely fascinating. The book that
Speaker 8: we're featuring this evening is Sons of Cain, A History
Speaker 8: of serial Killers from the Stone Age to the Present,
Speaker 8: with my special guests, journalist and author, filmmaker and investigative
Speaker 8: historian Peter Vronsky. Welcome to the program, and thank you
Speaker 8: very much for agreeing to this interview. Peter Frois fine,
Speaker 8: thank you, Thank you very very much. This is very exciting.
Speaker 8: As I put on Facebook as a preview for this program,
Speaker 8: this is a book for every true crime fan, no
Speaker 8: matter where you are in the evolution of your sort
Speaker 8: of fascination with true crime. So I'm very very excited
Speaker 8: to have you on and talk about this very very
Speaker 8: incredible book, Sons of Kin.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, it's a pleasure being on there.
Speaker 5: It's good.
Speaker 8: Thank you you start this book. And before we get
Speaker 8: into this again, like I mentioned, incredible book, let's talk
Speaker 8: about As you open the book with discussing your first encounter,
Speaker 8: you said you had three encounters random encounters with serial
Speaker 8: killers in your life, which is amazing. But as it
Speaker 8: I think it's important as you write in your book
Speaker 8: to talk about December nineteen seventy nine in New York.
Speaker 5: What.
Speaker 8: Yes, you've written a book about it called The Times
Speaker 8: Square Torso Ripper. Tell us about this encounter. What you
Speaker 8: what happened that day in December nineteen seventy nine, and
Speaker 8: that what you found out shortly after? Tell us this
Speaker 8: incredible story. As you write in the book Sons of Kin, Well.
Speaker 5: You know, it's almost like every one of my books
Speaker 5: begins with this particular encounter that I had with serial
Speaker 5: killer Richard Cottingham. It's kind of the alpha and omega
Speaker 5: of my writing essentially. And this was, you know, I
Speaker 5: was trying to check into this hotel in New York.
Speaker 5: This was you know, before the words serial killer had
Speaker 5: been popularly coined. Certainly law enforcement was using that term,
Speaker 5: but I had never heard it myself as just an
Speaker 5: ordinary guy, right. And so I encountered in the elevator
Speaker 5: doors an individual who had murdered two women in his room.
Speaker 5: He had severed their heads and their hands and set
Speaker 5: fire to their torsols and and then fled with the heads,
Speaker 5: kind of bumping into me in the elevator doors in
Speaker 5: the lobby as I was waiting to go up. So,
Speaker 5: you know, he kind of annoyed me because he had
Speaker 5: held up the elevator. You know, I'm impatient. I want to,
Speaker 5: you know, go in, take a walk around, decide if
Speaker 5: I want to stay in this place or not. So
Speaker 5: you know, who's holding up the elevator. So I kind
Speaker 5: of gave him a hard look when the doors opened,
Speaker 5: and he didn't he didn't look me in the eye.
Speaker 5: He kind of was as if I was invisible almost.
Speaker 5: He just walked through me, bumping me on the shins
Speaker 5: with some kind of soft bag he was carrying, which
Speaker 5: you know, felt like to me at the time, felt
Speaker 5: like he was carrying bowling balls in this bag. When
Speaker 5: you know, I didn't pay much more attention to him.
Speaker 5: I chose to go to the floor where he had
Speaker 5: held up the elevator, just a grandom, you know. And
Speaker 5: so once I got off at his floor, I immediately smelt,
Speaker 5: you know, something burning, and I thought at first, well,
Speaker 5: you know, that's how this place probably smells, right, And
Speaker 5: then shortly after fire alarms go off and and and
Speaker 5: so you know, we have to evacuate the hotel. And
Speaker 5: as I come out into the street, the fire department
Speaker 5: is arriving, and I figured, well, I'm not gonna stay here,
Speaker 5: and so I went stayed somewhere else, without knowing what
Speaker 5: had occurred at that hotel. The next morning, I go
Speaker 5: in where I have to be, and in the lobby
Speaker 5: there are all these newspapers from you know, morning papers,
Speaker 5: and there it is, you know, these stories about how torsoles,
Speaker 5: headless torsos set on fire, discovered in that very hotel.
Speaker 5: While I was checking into I did not think at
Speaker 5: all of the guy I had encountered on the elevator,
Speaker 5: you know, because you don't think that way. We know
Speaker 5: that's what serial killers do today. You know that they
Speaker 5: walk among us and and and you know, I probably
Speaker 5: had I known the notion of serial killers, would have
Speaker 5: immediately thought and the guy I had passed by a
Speaker 5: few minutes before I went up, But I didn't think
Speaker 5: that way, and and and so for for over a year,
Speaker 5: my story, as I told it over dinners and drinks
Speaker 5: to my friends, was, you know how I ended up
Speaker 5: trying to check into a hotel where there were these
Speaker 5: torsos set on fire. A year later, he's apprehended and
Speaker 5: I see his picture in the newspaper, and of course
Speaker 5: I recognized the guy, not so much by his face,
Speaker 5: but you know, by that haircut he had. There was
Speaker 5: they had this weird haircut that immediately kind of caught
Speaker 5: my attention, and so I recognized my got you know,
Speaker 5: the guy I had bumped into the elevator, that that
Speaker 5: was him. And of course it made sense in terms
Speaker 5: of the timeline. So, you know, from that point on,
Speaker 5: I it became very interested with you know, what these
Speaker 5: monsters were, like, where were they coming from? You know,
Speaker 5: we had all sorts of different words for serial killers,
Speaker 5: from you know, recreational killers, multiple killers, we called them
Speaker 5: stranger on strangers killers because we thought, you know, they
Speaker 5: only killed strangers. We know better now, but the term
Speaker 5: serial killer still had not been around. So I kind
Speaker 5: of entered this field exploring this notion of where these
Speaker 5: kind of Alfred Hitchcock movie monsters are coming from, and
Speaker 5: and that led to my kind of historical inquiries into
Speaker 5: what these guys are, what they're all about.
Speaker 8: It's very interesting you write that you said much of
Speaker 8: the current literature and serial killers disavowsed the monster construct,
Speaker 8: trying to humanize the killers despite their monstrous acts. And
Speaker 8: you said for this book, you said, you started from
Speaker 8: the opposite pole. Yeah, just understand how you explain.
Speaker 5: That, Yeah, exactly, because for me, there were monsters from
Speaker 5: the beginning, and so I kind of had to find
Speaker 5: these human features among them. Unlike you know, a lot
Speaker 5: of criminologists psychopathology today, of course start from the human
Speaker 5: part of it. They haven't really experienced the kind of
Speaker 5: the pre scientific era of you know, serial killers. And
Speaker 5: of course they've been monsters since the beginning of time,
Speaker 5: you know, thousands of monsters. We just didn't call them
Speaker 5: serial killers, right.
Speaker 8: You also, early on in the book introduced and you
Speaker 8: later discuss reasons for in your hypothesis for this surge,
Speaker 8: and you talk about the serial killer surge of the
Speaker 8: nineteen seventies to the nineteen eighties up to almost the
Speaker 8: twenty nineteen ninety nine, say eighty two percent, eighty two
Speaker 8: percent of those serial killers appear between nineteen seventy to
Speaker 8: two thousand.
Speaker 5: Of twentieth century American serial killers in just those three decades.
Speaker 5: This is where you know, our Ted Bundy's and John
Speaker 5: Wayne Gacy's and Jeffrey Dahmers, all these names with which
Speaker 5: we are so familiar with, you know, if you want
Speaker 5: to call them, that the superstar serial killers come out
Speaker 5: of this this age and age that uh, you know,
Speaker 5: my colleague Harold Scheckter had had coined, uh, this term
Speaker 5: that you know, that's the golden age of serial murder.
Speaker 5: And and indeed, you know, we're beginning to lose track
Speaker 5: of these personalities today where back you know, in those decades,
Speaker 5: guys like Author Shawcross, uh, Edmund Temper, all these you know, uh,
Speaker 5: Henry Lee Lucas, all these serial killers were packed tightly
Speaker 5: into that period. And and of course the mystery was,
Speaker 5: and I guess still is, because all I can offer
Speaker 5: hypothesis why in those three decades, and you know, we
Speaker 5: often associated it with society of those eras you know,
Speaker 5: for example, the nineteen sixties kind of being this new
Speaker 5: sexual permissiveness rebellion, the nineteen seventies, this kind of hedonistic decay,
Speaker 5: the nineteen nineties, the greed decade, and so forth. We
Speaker 5: never really quite understood, however, how that, you know, how
Speaker 5: that made people kill. And one of the things as
Speaker 5: I was researching, began to occur to me is, well,
Speaker 5: wait a minute. Serial killers are essentially formed in their childhood,
Speaker 5: and the statistical norm when a serial killer first kills
Speaker 5: is usually around twenty seven twenty eight years old. So
Speaker 5: if they're formed in their childhood between as early as
Speaker 5: the age of five to the age of fourteen roughly,
Speaker 5: and then nurture for all this time for up to
Speaker 5: twenty years their fantasies before they crossed the line and killed,
Speaker 5: you have to take those golden age serial killers, and
Speaker 5: you got to back them up twenty years. And so
Speaker 5: we're talking about guys that are being born during the
Speaker 5: nineteen forties and nineteen fifties, being raised in that era
Speaker 5: and in that culture. And so as I began to
Speaker 5: look at, you know, what was it like for kids
Speaker 5: to be brought up in forties and the fifties. You know,
Speaker 5: a couple of things struck me. One was, of course,
Speaker 5: is you know, the all these families broken first by
Speaker 5: the Great Depression. You have a lot of unemployed men
Speaker 5: who've lost their pride, lost their sense of self, lost
Speaker 5: their families in the thirties, Then you go into the
Speaker 5: Second World War, which you know, we have still this
Speaker 5: kind of Hollywood perception of the Second World War as
Speaker 5: kind of the last good war that we had fought
Speaker 5: somehow the enemy was primitive and savage and genocidal, but
Speaker 5: we fought honorably. Right. That, you know, is something that
Speaker 5: we're revaluating now over the last twenty decades. We begin
Speaker 5: to realize that to fight that kind of enemy we fought,
Speaker 5: we had to be pretty primitive and savage ourselves. And
Speaker 5: so we began to look at, you know, in in
Speaker 5: in the early two thousands, historians began to look at,
Speaker 5: you know, war crimes rapes committed by our side, by
Speaker 5: g I s in territories where we were liberating, for example,
Speaker 5: in Italy and France and and and and so forth,
Speaker 5: and as well in the Pacific. This this incredible UH
Speaker 5: activity of beheading uh the enemies dead and collecting their
Speaker 5: their skulls and bringing their skulls back home to the
Speaker 5: United States kind of war trophy, species of necrophilia UH.
Speaker 5: And and and so I began to look as as
Speaker 5: much as you can at those serial killer fathers UH
Speaker 5: from that era. And and whenever there I could find
Speaker 5: an account. Often I discovered that that these kids talk about,
Speaker 5: you know, their father coming home from the war and
Speaker 5: and being isolated, kind of sullen, not being able to
Speaker 5: talk about about the war. And indeed, you know, today,
Speaker 5: of course we've diagnosed PTSD since the Vietnam War, But
Speaker 5: in the Second World War, there, you know, there was
Speaker 5: no such thing. And and so moreover, at the end
Speaker 5: of the Second World War, we were very quickly expecting
Speaker 5: perhaps to go into World War three, uh, to fight
Speaker 5: uh the Soviet Union, the Russians and and and so
Speaker 5: our returning soldiers, very many of them just had to
Speaker 5: suck up that trauma UH and keep it to themselves.
Speaker 5: And and and so you do find, certainly, not all,
Speaker 5: but you certainly find, you know, a generation that fought
Speaker 5: in that war and had to just repress it. And
Speaker 5: of course that takes a toll on you, takes a
Speaker 5: toll on your family. It takes a toll on the
Speaker 5: kids you're you're raising. I'm sure you know, people listening
Speaker 5: to this of my own age, you know, baby boomers
Speaker 5: who had fathers or grandfathers who fought in the Second
Speaker 5: World War. I think I have a sense of you
Speaker 5: know what I'm talking about, this this kind of sullen
Speaker 5: silence about their experience in the war. Very few will
Speaker 5: we'll talk about it. And of course as a historian,
Speaker 5: I've talked at least to Canadian soldiers who fought in
Speaker 5: the Second World War. The statistics we have are on
Speaker 5: American gis, but Canadian soldiers have told me similar things
Speaker 5: from that era that yes, of course, you know, when
Speaker 5: we were fighting the Nazis, sometimes we had to fight
Speaker 5: them the way they fought, and you know, all sorts
Speaker 5: of violations were committed on the battlefield, you know, vis
Speaker 5: are the taking POW's for example, stories that are still
Speaker 5: non acknowledged and not somehow on the record as to
Speaker 5: exactly how that war was fought. So I think it
Speaker 5: had a tremendous impact among other things, because it's never
Speaker 5: one single thing. You know, there was a post war
Speaker 5: culture as well, of kind of popular rape literature, talking
Speaker 5: about men's adventure magazines that would feature on the cover
Speaker 5: usually this painted image of a woman somehow subdued about
Speaker 5: to be tortured, raped and murdered, either by you know,
Speaker 5: Pacific cannibals or by Japanese later by Korean troops or Nazis.
Speaker 5: But it was always this book some female who is,
Speaker 5: like I said, restrained and tortured. And then you had
Speaker 5: at the same time these two crime magazines, and these
Speaker 5: would also feature a photograph of a model posing as
Speaker 5: if she's a victim of a sex crime, often looking
Speaker 5: from the cover of the magazine outwards towards the buyer,
Speaker 5: as if it's the buyer who's about to victimize her.
Speaker 5: And so, you know, the FBI, you know, it described
Speaker 5: Detective True Detective magazines as pornography for serial killers, because
Speaker 5: as as they were arresting these guys in the seventies
Speaker 5: and eighties, it's you know, andrewed reading material for many
Speaker 5: of these guys. And this is not stuff that was
Speaker 5: sold underneath the counter. It wasn't explicitly pornographic, which perhaps
Speaker 5: made it worse. It was implicitly sexual, and and so
Speaker 5: it fed kind of fantasy scripting. It fed the imagination,
Speaker 5: and so you know, you have combinations of factors and
Speaker 5: things that come together. It's never one single thing.
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Speaker 8: Now, let's get to a more specific thing that you
Speaker 8: you go into into the book, and that's Sexual serial Killers.
Speaker 8: And you talk about psychopath psychopathia, sexualists, the psychology of lust,
Speaker 8: murder Richard Kraft Ebing and he categorizing and catalog the
Speaker 8: wide range of sexual crimes and disorders, and he's found
Speaker 8: almost exclusively of males, paraphilias, obsessions for particular type of sex,
Speaker 8: or being aroused by partialism or fetishes. So you talk
Speaker 8: about you talk about the sexual serial killers and also
Speaker 8: their formation. So as you talk about that there's a
Speaker 8: small minority of people convicting or that were perpetrating these
Speaker 8: crimes in wartime, whether it was in the Pacific or
Speaker 8: in World War Two, but you said that almost all
Speaker 8: of these men had to witness or werewity to some
Speaker 8: of these atrocities, and like you say, you had to
Speaker 8: absorb that trauma. That trauma was never dealt with. And
Speaker 8: so then you have a generation of kids that were
Speaker 8: just not raised by fathers properly. Part of the problem.
Speaker 8: Then we talk about some of these other things. But
Speaker 8: when we talk about these kinds of people with paraphilias,
Speaker 8: we're talking about an even rare subset of perpetrators, aren't we.
Speaker 5: That's right, yeah, And and again we're not sure how
Speaker 5: paraphilias are formed, but but we can kind of guess
Speaker 5: at it. I give the example of Jerry Bruder, who
Speaker 5: had a paraphilia for women's feet and high heel shoes. Now,
Speaker 5: you know, I don't know about you, but I kind
Speaker 5: of get a rise out of that myself. Right. The difference,
Speaker 5: of course, is for Jerry Bruders, he's shamed in that
Speaker 5: and and and so he's a feeling that he has
Speaker 5: to surreptitiously practice this and eventually he is going to
Speaker 5: be actually abducting women and cutting off their feet and
Speaker 5: keeping them in a freezer in a high heel shoe.
Speaker 5: That's the point he reaches. But the story of how
Speaker 5: he at least reports to psychiatrists how he first slipped
Speaker 5: into that paraphelia was around the age of five. He
Speaker 5: had found a pair of high heeled shoes in a dump,
Speaker 5: and out of curiosity, at children's curiosity, you know, brought
Speaker 5: them home. You know, he saw other women wearing you know,
Speaker 5: high heel shoes, and and and and so he's just
Speaker 5: curious about him. And so he puts these high heel
Speaker 5: shoes on and walks into the kitchen where his mother
Speaker 5: is preparing dinner. And here's problem number two for little Jerry.
Speaker 5: His mother doesn't particularly like him or want him as
Speaker 5: a son. She wanted a daughter. So already we have issues.
Speaker 5: On top of that, he's got a learning disability, uh too,
Speaker 5: So you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a number of things.
Speaker 5: When his mother sees this five year old boy tottering
Speaker 5: around in these high heel shoes, she completely freaks out,
Speaker 5: and so she tells him he's wicked. She punishes him,
Speaker 5: and she takes the shoes, and she ritualizes this kind
Speaker 5: of burning of the shoes. And so, combined with the punishment,
Speaker 5: combined with already his mother's disdain for him, a learning disability,
Speaker 5: and who knows what else, a little five year old
Speaker 5: Jerry Brutus now is set for the rest of his
Speaker 5: life with this fetish for high heel shoes, something prohibited,
Speaker 5: something his mother had had burned. And so he'll struggle
Speaker 5: with that for you know, the rest of his life
Speaker 5: as other factors begin to combine as as well. You know,
Speaker 5: when he's public school, he ends up stealing a pair
Speaker 5: of high heel his teacher's high heel shoes from her desk.
Speaker 5: He's caught, and that further humiliates him, It alienates him
Speaker 5: from his peers. And now, typically of serial killers, you know,
Speaker 5: little Jerry Brutus is lonely, and he begins developing these
Speaker 5: fantasies of control and revenge, you know, control over women,
Speaker 5: control over those beings that wear those high heel shoes, right,
Speaker 5: and it begins to expand to other female garments as well.
Speaker 5: All these garments kind of begin to symbolize to him
Speaker 5: some kind of perhaps a sense of being oppressed by
Speaker 5: females or being punished by females, but some kind of
Speaker 5: need for revenge and control over them. And and that
Speaker 5: essentially is what serial killing is about. It's about control.
Speaker 5: That's what you know. Most serial killers are are seeking
Speaker 5: their their their motive. And so, you know, slowly he
Speaker 5: starts taking these fantasies out on the road, you know,
Speaker 5: fetish burglaries where he's stealing neighbors lingerie. He then abducts
Speaker 5: a teenage girl when he's a teenager himself, and tries
Speaker 5: to force her to pose in pornographic pictures. It's, you know,
Speaker 5: a very clumsy abduction. He ends up getting caught. He
Speaker 5: you know, now he has a juvenile record, And you
Speaker 5: know what often happens is, you know, these individuals they
Speaker 5: struggle between their fantasies, and because they're not insane, they
Speaker 5: know there's something wrong with what they're fantasizing about. They
Speaker 5: they kind of struggle to suppress that fantasy, and sometimes
Speaker 5: they succeed, sometimes they don't. Sometimes it's temporary. Often what
Speaker 5: profilers are looking when they have a suspect in mind,
Speaker 5: especially around when you know, we think they may have
Speaker 5: committed their first murder, is the so called the trigger.
Speaker 5: It could be a loss of a job, or a
Speaker 5: marriage breakdown, loss of a girlfriend, and so forth. And certainly,
Speaker 5: in you know, Jerry Brutus's case, it looks like after
Speaker 5: he gets out of the juvenile facility, he finishes school,
Speaker 5: he gets a radio engineering degree. He finds himself gainfully
Speaker 5: employed at a radio stations as a radio engineer. He
Speaker 5: meets a young woman, they fall in love, she marries
Speaker 5: He has kids. It it looks like it's all you know,
Speaker 5: He's got his life on track. And then he starts
Speaker 5: having marital problems and begins now to feel rejected by
Speaker 5: his wife, and he begins to withdraw into his basement,
Speaker 5: into his garage. He creates this, you know, kind of
Speaker 5: a man cave. He now also begins attacking women in
Speaker 5: the street, knocking them down, uh and running off with
Speaker 5: their high heeled shoes. And at one point a woman,
Speaker 5: a saleswoman I think an avon lady, comes to his door, uh,
Speaker 5: and he spontaneously crosses the line. He takes her into
Speaker 5: the house and he murders her and uses her body
Speaker 5: as kind of like a sex doll essentially, and once
Speaker 5: he's finished, he gets rid of the body, except he
Speaker 5: keeps the foot in his freezer. He also amputates the
Speaker 5: breasts and it kind of puts them into plastic trophy
Speaker 5: like cases. Right. So you know there's the dynamic for
Speaker 5: you from childhood to adulthood.
Speaker 8: You talk about with him, and we might as well
Speaker 8: continue with his case as well. You say that part
Speaker 8: of this is you quote as people spoke to Ian Brady,
Speaker 8: the psychic abolition of redemption, but also you call it
Speaker 8: chasing the dragon's tail, very much like the heroin Junkie.
Speaker 8: That's explained.
Speaker 5: That's right, because here's the issue. Right, Let's say you're
Speaker 5: five years old and you're having these fantasies. Right, These
Speaker 5: fantasies now are giving you a lot of comfort. You know,
Speaker 5: when you have a fantasy, what makes it powerful is
Speaker 5: this implicit idea that at some point you're going to
Speaker 5: act out on your fantasy. That's the excitement of having
Speaker 5: a fantasy. You know, what would it be like to
Speaker 5: actually express it in reality? And so, indeed, they take
Speaker 5: these fantasies on the road and test these limits. But
Speaker 5: once they cross that limit anygain. The average ages around
Speaker 5: twenty seven twenty eight. Once they cross through that realization
Speaker 5: of their fantasy, there's a horrific shock. The shock is
Speaker 5: guess what, reality is never like the fantasy. And so,
Speaker 5: but there's no way of going back now. You can't
Speaker 5: return now to the comfort and joy of the fantasy
Speaker 5: having tasted it in reality. And and and often what
Speaker 5: the problem for the serial killer is is that the
Speaker 5: victim does not behave and do the things that they
Speaker 5: had fantasized the victim to do, and and and so
Speaker 5: the first reaction often is deep depression, disillusionment, you know,
Speaker 5: with this fantasy you might have had for twenty years.
Speaker 5: Uh and and then this kind of obsession now to
Speaker 5: improve on the fantasy, to do it better the next time.
Speaker 5: Uh and and and so that's when you start having
Speaker 5: you know, the second, the third, the fourth killing. You
Speaker 5: go on this cycle of trying to constantly improve that
Speaker 5: that that fantasy until you reach a point as a
Speaker 5: serial killer where either you realize that you know, you're
Speaker 5: never going to now live out that fantasy, and some
Speaker 5: serial killers retire they just stop killing, as you know,
Speaker 5: the Golden State Killer allegedly did, as Gary Ridgway did,
Speaker 5: the BTK killer. A lot of retired serial killer, especially
Speaker 5: when they reach their middle ages and the testosterone is
Speaker 5: beginning to you know, fade and so forth, they become
Speaker 5: less kind of driven. So that's one scenario. The other
Speaker 5: scenario is kind of the Ted Bundy scenario, where the
Speaker 5: serial killer's personality begins to disintegrate, and Ted Bundy in
Speaker 5: the end, you know, when he gets to Florida. Here's
Speaker 5: a guy who was kind of meticulously organized at the
Speaker 5: beginning of his career, but by the time he gets
Speaker 5: to Florida, he's this kind of lurching, raving, disorganized serial
Speaker 5: killer who takes no heed in the way he used to. Uh,
Speaker 5: you know, and and and so it's almost like a
Speaker 5: form of suicide. Uh. And and Buddy, of course, is
Speaker 5: very quickly randomly arrested after committing these these disorganized murders.
Speaker 5: So that's the other scenario. Sometimes it could be a
Speaker 5: literary literally literally a suicide they just killed themselves or others. Uh.
Speaker 5: You know, I could think of Edmund Kemper, for example,
Speaker 5: who I think killed something like twelve people but realized
Speaker 5: who he really wanted to kill was his mother. Uh.
Speaker 5: And then finally he kills his mother and the next day, uh,
Speaker 5: turns himself into the police. He's he essentially has cured himself. Uh.
Speaker 5: You know, Kemper has been able to do what legions
Speaker 5: of psychiatrists were unable. He was able to understand himself
Speaker 5: and and do something about it. But here, you know,
Speaker 5: you have a very rare, highly intelligent serial killer. Company's
Speaker 5: IQ's is you know, in kind of the genius level,
Speaker 5: very articulate, very smart serial killer who essentially took himself
Speaker 5: off the killing ground and put himself away into a prison.
Speaker 5: So those are the kind of the various scenarios as
Speaker 5: to what eventually won't happen if a serial killer is
Speaker 5: an apprehended, you know, or why some serial killers appear
Speaker 5: to retire or just vanish. You know, the Zodiac killer
Speaker 5: might be still around having lived all these decades a
Speaker 5: you know, a perhaps a reasonably productive life with no
Speaker 5: history of other crimes, having lived out his fantasies, and
Speaker 5: you know, realized what you know, realizing a fantasy may meet.
Speaker 8: You go back to and hypothesize why there is a
Speaker 8: surge of serial killers in nineteen seventy two thousand.
Speaker 5: But also.
Speaker 8: Very much you talk about misogyny. You talk about we
Speaker 8: mentioned testosterone, You talk about the male phenomena versus the
Speaker 8: female involved in this type of sexual serial killers specifically.
Speaker 8: But you also go into great detail, which is fascinating
Speaker 8: is the witch hunts and the malleus male. Heinrich Kramer's procedural,
Speaker 8: the Witch's Hammer. It became a handbook, you say, for inquisitors, prosecutors,
Speaker 8: and judges, printed in fourteen editions fourteen eighty six to
Speaker 8: fifteen twenty. They start blaming religious assent on the Devil's
Speaker 8: terrorist witches and were wolves, And I mean it's integral
Speaker 8: to explain how we got to popular culture and literature
Speaker 8: and Grim's fairy tales and this idea of werewolves and demons,
Speaker 8: and we touched on it. But also that the church
Speaker 8: had employed these demonologists. They were real experts in defining
Speaker 8: who was had a pack with the devil and what
Speaker 8: should happen to those people and how they should be tortured.
Speaker 8: So could you tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 8: research that you did here and what you found in
Speaker 8: terms of how this sort of was an outlet for
Speaker 8: the serial killers of the time.
Speaker 5: Yes, you know, there in the medieval era, we began
Speaker 5: to kind of develop this harmony with the motion of
Speaker 5: the devil and evil. You know, it became a heresy
Speaker 5: to actually believe literally in the existence of witches and werewolves. Uh.
Speaker 5: The Church rejected that idea, and the devil becomes in
Speaker 5: the medieval era, a kind of trickster that we're all
Speaker 5: familiar with, you know, that cute little devil with the
Speaker 5: curly tale and the pitchfork. You know, he's colored red
Speaker 5: and he looks almost like a baby in diapers. The
Speaker 5: devil was a trickster. Once the monopoly of Catholicism in
Speaker 5: Europe is now challenged by the emergence of Protestantism. Uh,
Speaker 5: there's a division in the church, and there's a desperate
Speaker 5: need to now unify all the elites on both sides,
Speaker 5: on the Protestant side and on the Catholic side, behind
Speaker 5: whatever the agenda is for whichever religion is chosen. And
Speaker 5: so an enemy has to be found for both religions.
Speaker 5: And so the enemy now because the devil and the
Speaker 5: Devil's minions. And in the case of females, although men
Speaker 5: can also be accused of witchcraft and are approximately twenty
Speaker 5: percent were males, but the majority eighty percent were females.
Speaker 5: Females are now in this kind of misogynistic notion are
Speaker 5: now considered to be concubines of the devil if there's
Speaker 5: something unusual about them, perhaps they're not married, or it's
Speaker 5: the elderly woman living at the edge of the woods,
Speaker 5: or it could be you know, a young woman who
Speaker 5: you asked on the date and she turned you down right.
Speaker 5: Bitch to which or which to bitch right, So it's
Speaker 5: it's you know, there's a kind of a vendetta now
Speaker 5: and of course males in general are kind of conflicted
Speaker 5: over female power because that's what we have to deal
Speaker 5: with as children. You know, we're trying to negotiate our
Speaker 5: masculine independence from first of all, our mothers, our big sisters,
Speaker 5: the babysitter, the teacher. So whenever we are, you know,
Speaker 5: find ourselves in any way constricted from that, some males
Speaker 5: will react with frustration and violence and develop I hate
Speaker 5: towards the female figure if they can't, especially if you
Speaker 5: have an overbearing mother, which we do often see in
Speaker 5: serial killer cases. So you know, males have this conflicted
Speaker 5: relationship with with with with females. And so we're talking
Speaker 5: now about hundreds of thousands of women being arrested over
Speaker 5: a two hundred year period and subjected to these horrific
Speaker 5: tortures that you know, focused essentially on their genitals, on
Speaker 5: their breasts, and their their reproductive generals. There were even
Speaker 5: you know, special torture instruments designed, these kind of gynecological
Speaker 5: torture instruments, and of course the torture would be conducted
Speaker 5: by these lay contractors hired by the church. The priests
Speaker 5: and the monks would supervise kind of the sexual fantasies
Speaker 5: that they expected the women to confess to, you know,
Speaker 5: sex with the devil and so forth, while lay contractors
Speaker 5: would unleash all these tortures on women, including rape, and
Speaker 5: and and so what we have here is essentially, you know,
Speaker 5: state and church sponsored institutional serial killing, you know, familiar
Speaker 5: to the Holocaust era when uh, you know, thousands of
Speaker 5: Nazi German UH functionaries were recruited to murder people one
Speaker 5: by one, you know, before they started putting people into
Speaker 5: the gas chambers. They killed over a million and a
Speaker 5: half UH people by single shots to the head, not
Speaker 5: by firing squads. Everyone had their own person to kill, uh,
Speaker 5: and and and and so that too, is kind of
Speaker 5: a form of institutionalized serial killing because of course they
Speaker 5: killed two three people a day. They go home, their
Speaker 5: wife washes out, you know, the blood from their uniform,
Speaker 5: They read the newspaper, they play with the kids, and
Speaker 5: then the next day they come back and they kill
Speaker 5: another few people, right and and you know it's males
Speaker 5: they're killing, it's babies, it's it's it's women. Uh, you know,
Speaker 5: the Nazis murdered that way. I don't mean, you know,
Speaker 5: bomb or casualties on the battlefield, civilians caught in the
Speaker 5: battlefield talking about murdered, hung shot, gassed, poisoned, used for
Speaker 5: medical experience experiments. Eleven million people, of which six million
Speaker 5: were Jews. But you know, there were Gypsies, there were Poles,
Speaker 5: there were Czechs, there were Eastern Europeans, Russians, Ukrainians who
Speaker 5: were all being systematically murdered, and often that murder was
Speaker 5: taking place one by one. So the witch hunt of
Speaker 5: the Great Hunt, as it's sometimes called, is a similar
Speaker 5: kind of phenomenon, except it's much more sexualized than you
Speaker 5: know what the Nazis were perpetrating. So uh, and parallel
Speaker 5: to that, of course, now the werewolf is back right
Speaker 5: in again. The Middle Eval period, the werewolf was seen
Speaker 5: almost as a tragic romantic figure. Often it was a
Speaker 5: knight who finds the key to transforming himself into a
Speaker 5: wolf out of love for a woman. Usually that woman
Speaker 5: in these medieval tales betrays him by taking his transformational device,
Speaker 5: and now the night is forever unable to have his
Speaker 5: woman and trapped in this wolf stage. Those were the
Speaker 5: earlier where wolf myths. By the Renaissance period, as we
Speaker 5: start prosecuting witches, we also start prosecuting werewolves. And you know,
Speaker 5: the Internet is an amazing place in terms of historical
Speaker 5: research because now all these medieval and Renaissance documents, many
Speaker 5: of them have been digitized. All this information is now available.
Speaker 5: And so I began to find all these were wolf
Speaker 5: trials and and and what these individuals were accused of,
Speaker 5: uh committing, and and when I read the descriptions, things
Speaker 5: like one where wolf is abducting and mutilating children, another
Speaker 5: where wolf is targeting women walking down the country road
Speaker 5: or working in the fields and raping and mutilating them. Right,
Speaker 5: there's a were wolf who actually has a store in
Speaker 5: the town, and everybody knows him in the town. But
Speaker 5: he's luring adolescents into his store and murdering them and
Speaker 5: and and raping them and and dismembering their their their bodies.
Speaker 5: At the same time as he's talking to the parents
Speaker 5: and and looking, you know, when the child the youth
Speaker 5: is missing, and so forth, helping in the search parties.
Speaker 5: All these descriptions are are there from the you know,
Speaker 5: fourteen one hundred and fifteen hundred and sixteen hundreds, and
Speaker 5: so as I'm reading them, I'm going, hey, you know,
Speaker 5: this is John Wayne Gacy. I've just described to you, right,
Speaker 5: these are serial killers and what they're doing. And I
Speaker 5: even found that in the French system there was already
Speaker 5: an insanity plea long before the British introduced the McNaughton
Speaker 5: rules for insanity. As you know, to be legally insane,
Speaker 5: you have to not be aware of reality of what
Speaker 5: you're doing or its consequences, right, that is what technically
Speaker 5: makes you insane. Of course, serial killers are aware of
Speaker 5: what they're doing, which is why we don't consider them
Speaker 5: under the law insane. So there is an insanity plea
Speaker 5: in this case, but it's a kind of a three option.
Speaker 5: Physicians would come in and interview the werewolf to determine
Speaker 5: whether this actually is a mortal who is insane and
Speaker 5: deluded believing that he is a werewolf and acting out
Speaker 5: as a werewolf, therefore therefore insane, or is he a
Speaker 5: defendant feigning insanity pretending that he is deluded into thinking
Speaker 5: that he's a werewolf. That was option two, and then
Speaker 5: option three is he actually a real werewolf? And so
Speaker 5: you have this process of you know, insanity please being
Speaker 5: entered in the sixteen hundreds and sometimes successfully in these trials.
Speaker 5: So there's quite an extensive record, and I describe a
Speaker 5: number of these so called werewolf serial werewolf trials, and
Speaker 5: the apprehensions and the trials are happening approximately at the
Speaker 5: same rate that we had serial killer apprehensions in the
Speaker 5: United States States in the early part of the twentieth century.
Speaker 5: You know, several a year are being charged with these crimes.
Speaker 8: Very interesting. Let's just use this, Peter as an opportunity
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Speaker 8: way to hire. Now, Peter, we were talking about ancient history,
Speaker 8: and we're talking about but we have to fast forward
Speaker 8: a little bit to talk about and explain what people
Speaker 8: think is the first emergence of serial killers. You alluded
Speaker 8: to that France had already with your research. You've seen
Speaker 8: werewolf trials and in France, and so we're let's talk
Speaker 8: about the effect of industrialization where you say a large
Speaker 8: middle class emerges and shared space with the poor. Tell
Speaker 8: us how that creates a situation, makes it a ripe
Speaker 8: and environment for Jack the Ripper. And we can talk
Speaker 8: about the rise of the modern serial killer before that,
Speaker 8: before Jack the Ripper, But tell us how industrialization and
Speaker 8: the middle class mixing in with the poor and big
Speaker 8: cities what happens.
Speaker 5: Well, what we begin to see is not so much
Speaker 5: shifts and serial killers, but shifts and victims. One thing
Speaker 5: industrialization does is, of course it brings people into an
Speaker 5: urban environment. Cities begin to grow. You now have these
Speaker 5: kind of this kind of anonymity. And of course, in
Speaker 5: the agricultural agrarian world, prior to industrialization, the poor were
Speaker 5: usually mobile. You didn't see them in the cities. For example,
Speaker 5: in the summer. They'd be looking for work in farming
Speaker 5: during the summer, so it was kind of a seasonal phenomenon.
Speaker 5: Once you have industrialization, you now have these permanent, impoverished
Speaker 5: populations living in these dense slums in the cities. And
Speaker 5: of course, because we don't have a highly evolved trans
Speaker 5: transport system, you know, there are no suburbs. People live
Speaker 5: close to each other right. In fact, there are no elevators,
Speaker 5: so sometimes even classes are stacked. The higher your class,
Speaker 5: the lower you were in the building, the lesser stairs
Speaker 5: you had to climb. You know, it's the elevator that
Speaker 5: begins to give us a kind of a harmony in
Speaker 5: neighborhoods where all the middle classes are all the upper classes.
Speaker 5: Now they have elevators and they can all live together
Speaker 5: on multiple floor But prior to that we lived close
Speaker 5: to each other. And and and so there is this
Speaker 5: now emerging disdain for certain kinds of people that that
Speaker 5: still persists to this day. Uh. And it's usually people
Speaker 5: who are marginalized. We're talking about, you know, the homeless,
Speaker 5: we're talking about unemployed, elderly, We're talking about street prostitutes,
Speaker 5: We're talking about drug addicted street prostitutes, the runaway youths,
Speaker 5: and and and so forth, and and so serial killers,
Speaker 5: there's this term mimetic compulsion. Serial killers mimic uh often
Speaker 5: in who they target. They mimic societies disdain at that
Speaker 5: particular historical moment, and and they often fetishize it. They
Speaker 5: work that victim into their own sexual fantasies that they
Speaker 5: have been nurturing, of controlling and taking revenge on people.
Speaker 5: And so what I discover, for example, is in the
Speaker 5: early nineteenth century, the early eighteen hundreds, just as cities
Speaker 5: are beginning to kind of buke up and you have
Speaker 5: a middle class emerging, the preferred target of serial killers
Speaker 5: were often servant girls. And there were all these kinds
Speaker 5: of fetishes related to servant girl clothing, which we still
Speaker 5: see today. I mean, you know, the servant the French
Speaker 5: servant girl is you know, an outfit that you can
Speaker 5: buy in a sex shop, right, a Halloween costume. Right.
Speaker 5: Just in the same way as from the inquisition, dungeon
Speaker 5: play is still a theme in sexual fantasies. So all
Speaker 5: these things are still going today in our in our society,
Speaker 5: in our sexology. But but you know, I begin to
Speaker 5: see these serial killers that are targeting servant girls and
Speaker 5: their clothing in particular, because of course servant girls are often, uh,
Speaker 5: you know, very low class individuals who have to work
Speaker 5: in a middle class household and and and so middle
Speaker 5: class households prefer that their servant girls be dressed like them,
Speaker 5: be perfumed and coifferred as if there were you know,
Speaker 5: in the middle class. And so you have this kind
Speaker 5: of almost Albert Dissolvo kind of rage against uppity servant
Speaker 5: girls who are now also well dressed and perfumed. And
Speaker 5: and you have these serial killers attacking these women, abducting
Speaker 5: these these these servant girls, and and often keeping their
Speaker 5: clothing as these kind of fetishistic totems, almost literally killing
Speaker 5: them for the clothing.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: I describe it an example of a guy who had
Speaker 5: this game going where he had a magic mirror, and
Speaker 5: if a girl looks into his magic mirror, she will
Speaker 5: see her future fiance. But he insists that he restrains
Speaker 5: her because if she sees her fiance in the mirror,
Speaker 5: she's she's going to move towards him, and she'll scare
Speaker 5: the spirit of her fiance for the rest of you know,
Speaker 5: her life. And so he tells these women to bring
Speaker 5: with them their best clothing so that the spirit of
Speaker 5: the fiance through the mirror will we'll see the best
Speaker 5: dressed woman that he will fall in love. And of course,
Speaker 5: once he restrains her, you know, he would then kill her,
Speaker 5: rape or take her clothing, mutilate the corpse, and and
Speaker 5: and you know, there's a pattern of these kinds of
Speaker 5: servant girl killers. As cities start really becoming, you know,
Speaker 5: very dense and dynamic, and you begin to see a
Speaker 5: permanent population of of destitute prostitutes now on the scene. Gradually,
Speaker 5: the kind of focus towards the next half of the
Speaker 5: nineteenth century begins on, you know, focusing on street prostitutes,
Speaker 5: which of course Jack the Ripper kind of is is
Speaker 5: defines kind of the stereotypical what we would describe the
Speaker 5: first modern serial killer. He of course isn't, but but
Speaker 5: he is targeting precisely that victim, which Orian society holds
Speaker 5: in you know, disdain in the same way as as
Speaker 5: a gain we still hold in disdain today Crack addicted
Speaker 5: to prostitute, street prostitutes. You know, nothing has changed since since.
Speaker 8: That era, you say, with this research which enables this book,
Speaker 8: you talk about serial killers that actually had a lot
Speaker 8: of media attention, and and we're well known even outside
Speaker 8: the countries that they occurred, like Martin Dumalard and another
Speaker 8: ones that you have the Bickel case, you have Arizelano
Speaker 8: in Italy, sausage maker. So the thing is why do
Speaker 8: you why in history you explain, is that the they
Speaker 8: start with or most common perception is that Jack the
Speaker 8: rip for is the first known serial killer. In your
Speaker 8: research and through this book, what's the explanation of why
Speaker 8: some of these other people have been forgotten?
Speaker 5: Well, the part of it, of course is is I'm
Speaker 5: writing and we're reading in an English language culture, and
Speaker 5: and and so we're more aware of serial killers reported
Speaker 5: in in in English literature. Uh So that right away
Speaker 5: is one point in terms of Jack the Ripper of course,
Speaker 5: Jack the Ripper is committing his crimes in what would
Speaker 5: be the capital of English language newsprint. I mean there
Speaker 5: were many more newspapers in London at that time than
Speaker 5: there would have been in New York and and and
Speaker 5: so he's committing these crimes in in in the media
Speaker 5: English language and media capital where newspapers are competing with
Speaker 5: each other to outward each other. So that's one element.
Speaker 5: The fact that he's targeting, of course prostitutes is a
Speaker 5: salacious story. And of course that he's never identified that
Speaker 5: gives him kind of gives him legs. He's you know,
Speaker 5: the myth and the story of Jack the Ripper lives
Speaker 5: on to this day. And and of course this element
Speaker 5: as well, was he corresponding with the press and with
Speaker 5: the police. You know, it's fifty to fifty that it
Speaker 5: was other journalists who wrote those Jack the Ripper letters.
Speaker 5: We have not a single shred of evidence that definitively
Speaker 5: connects those letters to the perpetrator known as the White
Speaker 5: Chapel Killer, who you know, nicknamed Jack the Ripper. There's
Speaker 5: there's no proven connection. So all those letters, including his
Speaker 5: self naming himself Jack the Ripper, could be entirely myth.
Speaker 5: We don't know, and we don't know what happened to him.
Speaker 5: Was he one of those self curing serial killers. Did
Speaker 5: he move on somewhere else, did he dine in an accident,
Speaker 5: Was he put into prison for some other charge? Did
Speaker 5: he commit suicide? We have all these different scenarios. One
Speaker 5: thing we do believe, and I say we, you know,
Speaker 5: professional forensic profilers, psychopathologists, they believe that he was a
Speaker 5: local person, especially geographic forensic profilers as well. Just judging
Speaker 5: by the position of his victims and their proximity to
Speaker 5: each other. It's very likely that he was of the
Speaker 5: same class as the women were. That he was someone
Speaker 5: local in that neighborhood, familiar with that neighborhood, could have
Speaker 5: had a store there or lived there. But it's highly
Speaker 5: unlikely he came from the outside, you know, from the
Speaker 5: royal family, or from you know that he was a
Speaker 5: famous surgeon, or you know that he was you know H. H.
Speaker 5: Holmes from Chicago who you know who? During the jack
Speaker 5: the Ripper killers was busy in lawsuits in Chicago, building
Speaker 5: his so called murder hotel, which never was a murder
Speaker 5: hotel as far as we know. So you know, the
Speaker 5: fact that we never identify Jack the Ripper is I
Speaker 5: think what keeps ripperology and ripperologists going. And you know,
Speaker 5: it was quite a challenge for me to try to
Speaker 5: say anything significant in the chapter on Jack the Ripper,
Speaker 5: considering how sophisticated some of the theories are and the
Speaker 5: arguments as to his identity. But likely, as I say,
Speaker 5: it was an homonymous, absolutely non aristocratic, kind of a
Speaker 5: Gary Ridgeway type of killer that was targeting those women.
Speaker 8: You also separate the myth from the factual information that
Speaker 8: you've found. And regarding Herbert Mudget hilms Aka and you
Speaker 8: alluded to that this murder castle that had been reported
Speaker 8: that he built this with the intent purpose of and
Speaker 8: as you write in a book, you dispel a lot
Speaker 8: of those myths. Tell us a little bit about some
Speaker 8: of the things that you write about Herbert Mudget.
Speaker 5: Well, her Mudget is he's definitely a serial killer. There's
Speaker 5: no question about that, because we're pretty sure he murdered
Speaker 5: at least three victims. An individual who worked for him,
Speaker 5: you know, Herman Mudget or H. H. Holmes, was a
Speaker 5: kind of disgraced medical doctor who ran a lot of
Speaker 5: frauds and insurance frauds in particular. And the myth, of
Speaker 5: course is that he built this rooming house hotel during
Speaker 5: the World's Fair in Chicago, and that this house had
Speaker 5: all these secret chambers and shoots to draw bodies down
Speaker 5: into the basement where they would be burned, that he
Speaker 5: had these gas chambers in there. The only secret room
Speaker 5: apparently that there was in that whole hotel and that
Speaker 5: building was a room where he would hide stolen furniture.
Speaker 5: But there he's never been any significant evidence or persuasive
Speaker 5: evidence that he had murdered more than the three individuals
Speaker 5: that he was accused of murdering. And and Holmes as
Speaker 5: well wrote these confessions as well that he was paid
Speaker 5: for by by the Hearst newspaper chain on top of that.
Speaker 6: So so.
Speaker 5: He certainly is not the United States's first serial killer,
Speaker 5: as as he's being portrayed on on on television these
Speaker 5: days on you know A and E and and and
Speaker 5: so fourth, he might not, you know, as I say,
Speaker 5: he is no doubt a serial killer. Three will do it,
Speaker 5: two will do it these days. But was he kind
Speaker 5: of the most prolific and and he's certainly not the
Speaker 5: first I have a whole number of candidates in the
Speaker 5: United States who were killing, some of them in the
Speaker 5: same way as Jack the Ripper was prior to HH Holmes.
Speaker 5: But we know that the summer, in the summer when
Speaker 5: he's supposed you know, there are these allegations as well
Speaker 5: that he traveled to London and committed the Jack the
Speaker 5: Ripper cases. But in the summer and fall when those
Speaker 5: Jack the Ripper cases were occurring, he's in Chicago and
Speaker 5: involved in a lawsuit with contractors over the building of
Speaker 5: his hotel. So there again is absolutely not a single
Speaker 5: shred of evidence that Holmes ever crossed the Atlantic. Yeah.
Speaker 8: Yeah, you provide so many examples and and a lot
Speaker 8: of case not case studies, but you go into detail
Speaker 8: of many of these, uh, these serial killers, Theodore Theo Durant,
Speaker 8: the dson of the Belfry San Francisco, eighteen ninety five,
Speaker 8: Thomas Piper, the Boston Belfry murderer, or the or the bat.
Speaker 1: And to.
Speaker 5: Talk about crazy things, then too, here here you have
Speaker 5: two serial killers in the United States, early pioneering serial killers.
Speaker 5: Both of them are involved in killing female victims inside
Speaker 5: a church. They're sectors at a church they have access
Speaker 5: at a church and they're both Canadian born. How about that?
Speaker 5: You know? So it's you know, there are these weird patterns.
Speaker 5: We see that in in crime. We we see these
Speaker 5: strange you know, gun deaths suddenly cluster. We have these
Speaker 5: Belfry murders in Baptist churches with no connection between the
Speaker 5: two perpetrators. Uh and and and yet you know how odd, right,
Speaker 5: both come from Canada, both are sections in in in
Speaker 5: Baptist churches, one in Boston, one in San Francisco. Right,
Speaker 5: So it's it's amazing sometimes the kind of synchronicity you
Speaker 5: you you have in in the history, you know, or
Speaker 5: is it some kind of you know, following that serial
Speaker 5: killers somehow like like you know, crows or whales uh
Speaker 5: cluster around each other. You know. It's it's it's a
Speaker 5: mystery how these these surges occur, and we're trying to
Speaker 5: find some kind of logical explanation for it.
Speaker 8: You talk about there was an incredible effort, and you
Speaker 8: talk about people like fourquet and in the who interviewed
Speaker 8: Joseph Wacker and trying to understand what was going on here.
Speaker 5: At first, when you.
Speaker 8: Talk about some of the trials the early trials, they
Speaker 8: didn't even comprehend the motive behind these crimes. They paraphilic crimes.
Speaker 8: They attributed it to the robbery as a motive. So
Speaker 8: there was all kinds of advances forensically, but also very
Speaker 8: much importantly trying to understand through well through the confessions,
Speaker 8: but all through through the interviews, to get a grasp
Speaker 8: of what these people the motivation for their crimes, and
Speaker 8: so well before H. H. Holmes did his suppose it
Speaker 8: or alleged confession, they had a certain amount of information
Speaker 8: to try to understand this.
Speaker 5: Yes, you know, we're seeing a period of course, from
Speaker 5: the Enlightenment. The mediators in in in terms of motive
Speaker 5: used to be priests in kind of the agrarian world.
Speaker 5: Priests explained evil to us. And and of course sometimes
Speaker 5: these kinds of serial killers were explained as as being
Speaker 5: supernatural phenomenon. Witches were wolves. But of course after the Enlightenment,
Speaker 5: as we get into the nineteenth century, we begin to
Speaker 5: see the emergence of alienists or psychiatrists and and and
Speaker 5: you know, there's a case of necrophilia in kind of
Speaker 5: the mid century, the Vampire of Montparnasse, and it was
Speaker 5: when the term necrophilia, having sex with the dead, is
Speaker 5: actually coined. And and and for the first time, you
Speaker 5: begin to see psychiatrists now stifying in court as to
Speaker 5: the motive of the individual. And so approximately the eighteen fifties,
Speaker 5: now you have this kind of robust development of forensic
Speaker 5: psychiatry and attempting to describe the motives, the behaviors, you
Speaker 5: know those. It's kind of a first generation of those
Speaker 5: mind hunters from the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties who
Speaker 5: were interviewing serial killers. So a lot of that pioneering
Speaker 5: work had already been done back in the nineteenth century.
Speaker 5: And certainly the vampire you know of Momparnasse was surprised
Speaker 5: everybody because at that time the motion of criminality was
Speaker 5: closely linked to physical appearance, and it was expected the
Speaker 5: criminals looked like criminals, that they looked like primitive beings.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 5: That was Lombroso's theory. It's kind of a theory I've
Speaker 5: returned to. Lombroso, of course, is was known as you know,
Speaker 5: the head of kind of Italian criminology. But Lombroso believe
Speaker 5: that criminals, including serial killers, are actually reverting to their
Speaker 5: primitive caveman state, kind of an atavistic state. Where he
Speaker 5: kind of goes wrong is that he believes that it's
Speaker 5: clearly hereditary and that you can physically recognize by an
Speaker 5: individual who has primitive caveman like ape like features is
Speaker 5: automatically a criminal. And of course, like I saying, the
Speaker 5: French school of criminology that no, no, it's the environment
Speaker 5: that makes the criminal eventually will displace Lombrososh school. But
Speaker 5: I think we should review Lombroso's idea of criminal behavior
Speaker 5: being kind of a pre civilizational, primitive impulse, and of
Speaker 5: course it could be enclosed in a very civilized looking
Speaker 5: person like Ted Bundy for example. You know, that's where
Speaker 5: I think Lombroso went off the track. But certainly there
Speaker 5: are now these debates in the nineteenth century, whether you know,
Speaker 5: this is a question we asked today are serial killers
Speaker 5: born or made? Well, this was exactly the debate taking
Speaker 5: place one hundred and fifty years ago between Lombroso and
Speaker 5: lack of Sang, between the Italians and the French, with
Speaker 5: the Italians essentially saying serial killers are born, the French
Speaker 5: saying they're made. So we already had that debate.
Speaker 8: But you know, history is like that.
Speaker 5: We forget things and we often have to rediscover things.
Speaker 5: All these new discoveries are often just you know, rediscoveries.
Speaker 5: So much of the pioneering work had been done. And
Speaker 5: you know, there were several attempts to profile Jack the
Speaker 5: Ripper in the same way is police would profile a
Speaker 5: crime scene today, So again that that notion of of
Speaker 5: criminal crime scene profiling is more psychological profiling is not
Speaker 5: at all new. But the nineteenth century we begin to
Speaker 5: catalog these pyrohelias. That's when we coin terms like saddism, masochism,
Speaker 5: many of the terms that.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 5: In craft Ebbings book psychopathia, sexualis, he coins a lot
Speaker 5: of those terms, and you get, you know, you got.
Speaker 5: You have some descriptions of serial killers in in that book,
Speaker 5: published of course eighteen eighty six in Germany, and when,
Speaker 5: of course Jack the Ripper arrives two years later, eighteen
Speaker 5: eighty eight. His book has not been yet translated into English,
Speaker 5: so it doesn't quite enter yet into kind of the
Speaker 5: analysis of who Jack the Ripper might have been at
Speaker 5: that time. But very soon after that there a lot
Speaker 5: of forensic psychiatrists and criminologists familiar with the concept of
Speaker 5: a serial killer, although they haven't yet stumbled on the
Speaker 5: name for it, but they're familiar with that concept and
Speaker 5: some of the mechanisms of identifying them and finding their
Speaker 5: movements and patterns, as they had to do with Vashar,
Speaker 5: This kind of migratory serial killer are the very opposite
Speaker 5: of who Jack the Ripper was. Jack the Ripper was
Speaker 5: working in uh targeting his victims over several square blocks
Speaker 5: in an urban center. Vashire was was compulsively tramping thousands
Speaker 5: of miles in circles around France, killing victims, kind of
Speaker 5: like Ted Bundy. And and of course it's it's one
Speaker 5: investigator at that time who begins to suspect that there's
Speaker 5: something pathological about the murders in his district, and he
Speaker 5: telegraphs to all the other districts, kind of like an
Speaker 5: early viscap bolo be on the lookout for uh Ah
Speaker 5: certain types of offenses and reports of you know, because
Speaker 5: he had kind of physical features that were distinctive a
Speaker 5: suspect with these kinds of physical features. And and sure enough,
Speaker 5: within a week he gets a call h a telegram
Speaker 5: from somebody who had put away uh exactly that description
Speaker 5: of a person for an attempted rape. Uh and and
Speaker 5: and so now he'll interrogate and question uh that Shah
Speaker 5: and and and and here you have again the first
Speaker 5: uh kind of psychological interview where uh, you know, the
Speaker 5: interviewer is seeking away for the suspect to make it
Speaker 5: easy for him to confess and and and he works
Speaker 5: exactly the way serial killer interviews take place today. Uh.
Speaker 5: You know, he on the suspect's ego. He pretends to
Speaker 5: be writing a book about vagrants in France, And would
Speaker 5: the Shar comment to him about what it's like to
Speaker 5: be a vagrant? Would he assess his book right? And
Speaker 5: and and in fact, he wasn't pretending. Indeed, he was
Speaker 5: writing a book on vagrants. And so Vashar kind of
Speaker 5: reviews his manuscript and and is honored by all this attention.
Speaker 5: And of course, as he's commenting on his book, Vashar
Speaker 5: inadvertently is providing evidence of you know, where he was
Speaker 5: in all these different places, not realizing that you know,
Speaker 5: this isn't about vagrants. This is about tying all these
Speaker 5: unsolved cases, cold cases to him. So Vashar essentially puts
Speaker 5: his neck under the guillotine. Blade. Uh, you know, as
Speaker 5: in a classic of classic serial killer interrogation.
Speaker 8: Yes, yes, it's very fascinating for the time and considering
Speaker 8: we think it's such a modern phenomena itself. It's profiling
Speaker 8: and the interviewing itself.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because here we again we have you know, we
Speaker 5: have the LAPD nineteen fifties, desperate to connect these various murders,
Speaker 5: and it's at that time, you know, the suggestion is
Speaker 5: made that maybe there should be a computer database. This
Speaker 5: is nineteen fifties where different police jurisdiction can jurisdictions can
Speaker 5: have a central database of various crime characteristics in unsolved
Speaker 5: cases that they can consult. This is exactly what was done,
Speaker 5: you know, in the Vashire case one hundred years earlier.
Speaker 5: And of course it takes in the United States another
Speaker 5: twenty years, you know, before they actually start implementing these
Speaker 5: these suggestions that were thought to be revolutionary in the
Speaker 5: nineteen fifties, they were simply forgotten from what the French
Speaker 5: were already doing.
Speaker 8: And you talk about too that for all the pop
Speaker 8: culture references to ViCAP and how you know, how amazing
Speaker 8: it is and how easy it is for authorities to
Speaker 8: be able to just put the information in and be
Speaker 8: able to get results back. Not to beat up on
Speaker 8: you know, like a good story about this initiation of ViCAP,
Speaker 8: but you tell us about the drawbacks and the failures,
Speaker 8: the gross failures of VISCAP. Yeah, maybe you can tell
Speaker 8: us about that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, VISCAP, of course is very problematic. You know, the
Speaker 5: one thing that police departments and police officers are inundated
Speaker 5: with his paperwork and so ViCAP this multi page form.
Speaker 5: You know, you used to have to fill it out physically,
Speaker 5: you know, before the age of you know, desktop computers,
Speaker 5: why caps forums were you know, had to be filled
Speaker 5: out by hand or typed. Then they had to be
Speaker 5: mailed and so forth. Eventually, the second kind of generation
Speaker 5: you were able to submit the data on a computer disc.
Speaker 5: The third generation you could now just send it in electronically.
Speaker 5: But about still about ten years ago, eight years ago,
Speaker 5: individual police departments could not query the white VISCAP database.
Speaker 5: What police officers had to do a police department had
Speaker 5: to make a formal request from the FBI, who who
Speaker 5: administrates VISCAP, for them to run a data analysis on
Speaker 5: the form that they submit. And so it wasn't used
Speaker 5: very frequently and of course, VISKAP is introduced in the
Speaker 5: nineteen eighties, but a lot of those police officers familiar
Speaker 5: with VISCAP retired and some don't even know that ViCAP
Speaker 5: even existed, and so you had this I think his
Speaker 5: name was Leonard, a trucker killer in the two thousands
Speaker 5: whose data was in VISCAP, but in the jurisdictions where
Speaker 5: he was committing his last crimes, they were unaware of
Speaker 5: ViCAP and never made the query, and it wasn't until
Speaker 5: a career was made that all the connections were made.
Speaker 5: And so after that, VISCAP four kind of now allows
Speaker 5: for a police department to query the database on their own.
Speaker 5: But statistically speaking, in terms of how often VISCAP has
Speaker 5: resulted in an arrest, it's not very often. And of
Speaker 5: course we have a similar system in Canada. I think
Speaker 5: it's called the CLASS. But when you compare, you know,
Speaker 5: Canada has thirty six million people, United States three hundred
Speaker 5: million people. When you compare how many police officers are
Speaker 5: permanently or how many staff are permanently working at CLASS
Speaker 5: maintaining it and at VISCAP, you know, the Canadians have
Speaker 5: put tons of money into this system and a lot
Speaker 5: of it's very labor intensive. VISCAP in the United States
Speaker 5: has this kind of skeleton crew, and it's a big
Speaker 5: question to this day just how effective and helpful CAP is.
Speaker 5: And so there was a pro public investigation into just
Speaker 5: the effectiveness of WHITECAP and it wasn't a you know,
Speaker 5: it wasn't a very enthusiastic review of the successes of YECAP.
Speaker 8: You talk about the decline of the serial killer after
Speaker 8: into the two thousands, but you say that it's a
Speaker 8: decline in actual serial killers, but the motivation and the
Speaker 8: type of killer, those type of killers still exist, but
Speaker 8: their crimes are manifested, say in the lone Wolf, for
Speaker 8: the radicalized terrorists in say in the US. So as
Speaker 8: you do much better explanation than I do. Tell us
Speaker 8: where the potential killer would we go to today with
Speaker 8: under the same kinds of conditions that would spawn him
Speaker 8: to be a serial killer?
Speaker 5: Well, I was thinking more of of mass killers, you know,
Speaker 5: mass killers. You know, when you have these so called
Speaker 5: self radicalized terrorists, I suspect that you know, fifteen years
Speaker 5: earlier or twenty years you know, before nine to eleven,
Speaker 5: you know, these would be you know, like the pseudo
Speaker 5: goths that shot up that high school in the United States,
Speaker 5: glee boat, all right, and those guys, had they been
Speaker 5: living today, probably would have been pseudo Chianti's, you know.
Speaker 5: So we're kind of shaped off in that way in
Speaker 5: our criminal behavior. But as far as serial killing goes,
Speaker 5: the thing is, of course, is that homicides in general
Speaker 5: have significantly dropped since the mid nineteen nineties. So we're
Speaker 5: not sure why, we don't really understand it, but there
Speaker 5: appears to be as well a decline in serial killer apprehensions.
Speaker 5: That could mean, of course, that serial killers have become
Speaker 5: better at what they do and evading police, you know,
Speaker 5: because certainly serial killing is a learning process, and many
Speaker 5: serial killers are forensically aware as they as they say,
Speaker 5: they read forensic literature, they know how serial homicides are investigated,
Speaker 5: They've looked at careers of other serial killers, and you know,
Speaker 5: the research. So that's one possibility. But we're hoping that
Speaker 5: things like, first of all, of course, evolution in the
Speaker 5: DNA technology, you know, now, just even over the last
Speaker 5: ten years, DNA technology has has has radically been advanced,
Speaker 5: and and and now as in the case of the
Speaker 5: UH Golden State serial killer, we have this new notion
Speaker 5: of familial DNA.
Speaker 8: Uh.
Speaker 5: And of course all these ancestry dot com type of
Speaker 5: websites have now been harnessed for this effort. You know
Speaker 5: that there's a big kind of constitutional issue about this,
Speaker 5: because essentially you're using innocent people's DNA to connect uh
Speaker 5: to you know, your suspect cousin or your suspect uncle
Speaker 5: or second cousin and so forth. Uh. You know, of course,
Speaker 5: the ubiquity of cell phones means that people's movement can
Speaker 5: be reconstructed both the victim and the serial killer.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: To to have a kind of serial on a side
Speaker 5: with mysterious movements like though you might have had in
Speaker 5: the nineteen eighties, today you would have to take the
Speaker 5: cell phones away from both the offender and the victim.
Speaker 5: So that's another issue. Police, of course, are much more
Speaker 5: aware of just the existence of serial killers. You have
Speaker 5: less chances today of so called linkage blindness, where you know,
Speaker 5: police do not recognize the kind of similarities or links
Speaker 5: in homicides. You know, they find it difficult to imagine
Speaker 5: that a single perpetrator would commit that many homicides or
Speaker 5: over that many jurisdictions. So you know, that was what
Speaker 5: VITEAP was supposed to address. So all these you know,
Speaker 5: and as well as just people's awareness ordinary people potential
Speaker 5: witness is awareness of serial killers and what they might
Speaker 5: be like and so forth. So we're now seeing these
Speaker 5: kinds of cases that are sometimes characterized as an arrest
Speaker 5: of a budding serial killer or a wanna be serial killer.
Speaker 5: This is an individual who has the psychopathology of a
Speaker 5: serial killer, but they're arrested after their first murder, and
Speaker 5: so we're recognizing them much earlier. And indeed, when we
Speaker 5: do arrest serial killers aside from you know, the code
Speaker 5: cases from the Golden era, like again the Golden State killer,
Speaker 5: you know, here's a guy from the late seventies, early eighties.
Speaker 5: He's exactly from that period. The BTK killer was, the
Speaker 5: Green River killer was as well. They're arrested in the
Speaker 5: two thousands for crimes they committed in the nineties and eighties.
Speaker 5: So aside from those guys serial killers often from the
Speaker 5: two thousands, we're seeing that the body counts now are
Speaker 5: much lower than they were in those gold Narra cases.
Speaker 5: It's you know, already the case we have here in
Speaker 5: Toronto where we have a suspect arrested and charged with
Speaker 5: eight murders. That already is a spectacular number for the
Speaker 5: two thousands. You know, eight murders in the nineteen seventies
Speaker 5: or nineteen eighties, you would have shrugged, you know, you
Speaker 5: know the Green River killer. I think forty nine murders
Speaker 5: or sixty two murders, something like that, right, So those
Speaker 5: numbers are declining. We're apprehending them. Earlier in their careers
Speaker 5: there seemed to be less of them. So monosis for
Speaker 5: the current era is good. But you know, these serial
Speaker 5: killing waves, they come in waves, in peaks, in valleys.
Speaker 5: And if my hypothesis of war and financial ruin are accurate,
Speaker 5: then we have a problem. Around two thousand and eight,
Speaker 5: we have this huge financial crash comparable to the Great
Speaker 5: Depression that takes place in two thousand and eight that
Speaker 5: decimates families, homeowners in particular. So you now have a
Speaker 5: whole generation of kids who grew up in the house
Speaker 5: but lost it and are living in these dumpy, third
Speaker 5: class motel rooms trying to survive. And then you have
Speaker 5: this very brutal war on terror that not only the
Speaker 5: fathers but the mothers of this generation of kids are fighting,
Speaker 5: and who knows what traumas they're bringing back. You know,
Speaker 5: we had hints of what was happening in the War
Speaker 5: on Terror, and and and you know, the question is
Speaker 5: what have we yet found out about just the brutality
Speaker 5: of that war because we're fighting. You know, when it
Speaker 5: comes to isis we're fighting an enemy as brutal as
Speaker 5: the as the Nazis were, and and and so are
Speaker 5: we going to now see eighteen years down the road,
Speaker 5: twenty years down the road, are we going to see
Speaker 5: a new surge? You know, only time will tell. You know,
Speaker 5: that'll be a good test from my World War Two
Speaker 5: pulp magazine Great Depression hypothesis as to why you had
Speaker 5: that golden age in the seventies and eighties. You know,
Speaker 5: twenty years down the road, there could be possibly another
Speaker 5: surge there.
Speaker 8: Certainly are those other forces. Maybe the detective magazines have
Speaker 8: been taken off the mainstream newsstands, but we have all
Speaker 8: kinds of ample replacements for that kind of fuel for
Speaker 8: as you say, a budding psychopathic killer. Yes, I will
Speaker 8: thank you very much Peter for coming on and talking
Speaker 8: about Sons of Kine, A history of serial killers from
Speaker 8: the Stone Age to the present. Is there a Facebook
Speaker 8: page for the book? And do you have a website
Speaker 8: in case people want to check out?
Speaker 5: And there is a website you can connect to, uh
Speaker 5: Peter Vronsky dot org and Peter Vronsky dot com that
Speaker 5: will take you to all the web pages. And the
Speaker 5: book is available everywhere everywhere books are sold.
Speaker 8: Yes, absolutely, and I can say it was just released yesterday,
Speaker 8: So thank you very much for coming on and talking
Speaker 8: about it right away. It's a fantastic book and I
Speaker 8: recommend it to everyone because it's just incredible, how comprehensive,
Speaker 8: how fascinating. All the examples of serial killers we had
Speaker 8: never heard about before, and all the great historical detail
Speaker 8: that goes into that. This book is jam packed and
Speaker 8: it's a fascinating, fascinating book. I want to thank you
Speaker 8: very much Peter for coming on and talking about it.
Speaker 5: You have a great event, Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 8: Thank you, Peter, I have a great Thank you.