1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: These sort of elaborations are essentially a way of doing commentary, yeah, 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,080 of fleshing out the story to sort of interpret and 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,679 apply it. And they weren't worried about this. You'll find 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,960 what are basically anachronisms. Right, So we're talking about a 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,320 story about Abraham that happened in circa two thousand BC, 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,839 and the added details are clearly stuffed from say the 7 00:00:27,879 --> 00:00:31,920 third or fourth century PC, which is when around the 8 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,799 time the text is written. And scholars treat this like, oh, 9 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,039 they let slip when this was written. See, they're trying 10 00:00:38,039 --> 00:00:41,159 to convince us that Moses wrote this. But look here 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:46,000 they messed up, right, not at all. That was not 12 00:00:46,079 --> 00:00:48,880 only not a mistake or not a problem. That was 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:49,920 kind of deliberate. 14 00:00:50,359 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 2: Yea. 15 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: They were taking that story and bringing it into their 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:54,119 own time. 17 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:20,359 Speaker 3: This is Jonathan Pejo, Welcome to the Symbolic World. Hello everyone, 18 00:01:20,519 --> 00:01:23,120 I'm here with a character. 19 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 4: That is quite known to all of us. Father Stephen 20 00:01:25,079 --> 00:01:27,359 de Youong is with us again today. This is great. 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,359 Speaker 3: We are offering a new class for symbolic worlds, the 22 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,640 first time that Father Stephen will be giving a class 23 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,439 for symbolic world It is going to be on the 24 00:01:36,519 --> 00:01:39,879 Nephelim and Jubilees. But today what we want to do 25 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,400 is to give a little bit of a framing for 26 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:45,359 why it matters, like why this this? Why looking at 27 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:49,120 these old kind of Second Temple texts and these strange 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,120 stories that are added to the Bible. Why why it's 29 00:01:52,159 --> 00:01:55,879 not just about fascinating stories to discover, but why in 30 00:01:55,879 --> 00:01:57,799 some ways it's a it's a kind of theology in 31 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,200 storytelling and the theology and liturgy. So, Father Stephen, thanks 32 00:02:01,239 --> 00:02:01,840 for talking to me. 33 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,239 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's good to be here. 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 3: So tell us a little bit first about about what's 35 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,360 the what's the idea of the class, and then and 36 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:10,919 then frames this discussion for us. 37 00:02:11,439 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, uh, the class is really going to be 38 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,479 about the Book of Jubilees, which is a piece of 39 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:23,039 Second Teple Jewish literature. Uh, it's one of the most 40 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,840 important ones. Probably the first one people think of, maybe 41 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,439 the Book of nich or first Nick, but Jubileese has 42 00:02:30,479 --> 00:02:33,560 had an ongoing relevance. 43 00:02:33,599 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: It's a little more subarosa. 44 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,439 Speaker 1: You don't find people debating it as openly or that 45 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:39,919 kind of thing. You're not going to find as many 46 00:02:40,039 --> 00:02:42,599 quote patristic quotes of people talking about the Book of 47 00:02:42,719 --> 00:02:45,039 Nick and who wrote it in that kind of thing. 48 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:52,000 But Jubilees is the very rare second teple Jewish text 49 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,360 that you'll still find, for example, linked on Jewish websites, 50 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,240 m even Rabbitic Judaism, although they have a weird relationship 51 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:01,800 with it. 52 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,439 Speaker 2: But it has kind of lingered around and it has. 53 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: An after life into the medieval period in terms of 54 00:03:12,719 --> 00:03:15,960 elements of it, So that makes it in particular kind 55 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,360 of important. And it does deal with the origins of 56 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,080 the Nephilim, and people get excited when I talk about giants, 57 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,919 so we went ahead and put that in the title 58 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,960 to provide people that that's going to be we will 59 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:34,639 be talking about. They were, yeah, so get excited. But 60 00:03:36,479 --> 00:03:38,919 so it's going to be about the text. And what 61 00:03:39,479 --> 00:03:43,919 Jubilees really is is it's sort of an expanded retelling 62 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,919 of the Book of Genesis and the first part of 63 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,680 the Book of Exodus. So it's framed as here is 64 00:03:49,759 --> 00:03:54,719 the vision that Moses had and the experience that Moses 65 00:03:54,759 --> 00:03:57,400 has when he's on Mount Sinai for the forty days 66 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:04,039 from which he is going to compose Genesis, and the 67 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,080 part of Exod is leading up to him being there. 68 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,879 So it includes, you know, the basic framework of the 69 00:04:11,879 --> 00:04:17,399 biblical stories of Genesis, but then also includes sort of 70 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:24,079 expanded details even whole other story elements and narrative elements 71 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:31,720 that aren't there in the received text of Genesis. 72 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 2: So that's really what it is, and that's what we're 73 00:04:36,759 --> 00:04:37,240 gonna be covering. 74 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: We'll be going to be discussing not just the tradition 75 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,839 surrounding the Nephelim, but those and then also these other 76 00:04:44,959 --> 00:04:50,120 traditions surrounding the patriarchal narratives about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob 77 00:04:50,399 --> 00:04:56,759 and Joseph, creation, the Fall, all of those things, and 78 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,079 even with the frame story and some of the the 79 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,800 latter part of the text, some traditions about Moses himself. 80 00:05:04,639 --> 00:05:07,079 Speaker 2: And his prophetic role and experience. 81 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 3: So why does that why does that matter? In some 82 00:05:10,879 --> 00:05:13,160 ways it's bringing us to our discussion today. Why would 83 00:05:13,199 --> 00:05:15,720 we want why would we care about these stories? 84 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is this isn't just sort of the 85 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,480 subject of aniquarian interest, right, Yeah, we're just kind of 86 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,319 interested in that kind of you know, this is the 87 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:25,040 kind of thing you'll like if you like this sort 88 00:05:25,079 --> 00:05:31,759 of thing. But this is an example and hopefully. One 89 00:05:31,759 --> 00:05:33,680 of the main things I want to bring out over 90 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,000 the course of the course is I want to sort 91 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,160 of help teach people to understand a different way of 92 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:48,040 doing theology than the modern way. We're all used to 93 00:05:48,079 --> 00:05:51,879 the modern way, right, which is sort of and by 94 00:05:51,959 --> 00:05:54,279 modern I don't even mean all modern theology. I mean 95 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:58,720 sort of academic modern theology, right, where people do papers 96 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,079 and present papers and you citations of you know, this 97 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,360 is that Bible verse this and that, or Trather this 98 00:06:04,399 --> 00:06:10,240 and that other theologian. That's not how they did theology 99 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,920 in Second Temple Judaism, including the New Testament, right, And 100 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,199 that's not how the Fathers did theology. That's certainly not 101 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,040 how people the ancient ear East even before that, did theology. 102 00:06:22,879 --> 00:06:26,240 The theological texts we find, whether we're talking about Jewish texts, 103 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,759 whether we're talking about Pagan texts, whether we're talking about 104 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,680 later Christian texts, they're explicitly Christian, take a variety of 105 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,959 different forms in different genres. You get narrative texts. You 106 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,480 get ritual texts that described the practices of the people. 107 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: The way they're living. 108 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: You get poetic texts like the Psalms, the most quoted 109 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,800 book in the New Testament of the Old Testament is 110 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,720 the Psalms. So the New Testament is deriving most of 111 00:06:56,759 --> 00:07:02,000 its Old Testament theology from poems, hymns and so, right, 112 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,800 not from some kind of statement arguments and statements. And 113 00:07:06,879 --> 00:07:09,759 so there's there's this vast variety of texts. And I 114 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:16,079 think one of the things that's afflicting the modern American 115 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:21,439 and I'm using America broadly to include our Canadian friends. 116 00:07:22,519 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: Inclusive there you go. 117 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,399 Speaker 1: Is or we can say modern Anglophone right, orthodoxy now 118 00:07:32,439 --> 00:07:39,519 I'm excluding the French, but any uh. The is is 119 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,240 that we we sort of don't appreciate this variety of 120 00:07:43,319 --> 00:07:49,000 ways of doing theology within our own orthodox tradition, and 121 00:07:49,079 --> 00:07:53,639 that that modern academic way is really a small, recent minority. 122 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: Of ways of writing and understanding and thinking theologically. Yeah. 123 00:08:00,319 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, and some with some people, they see theology really 124 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,600 related to certain theological controversies. And that's where a lot 125 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,959 of the theological thinking, or modern theological at least the 126 00:08:14,959 --> 00:08:17,759 one that I see the argumentative type of theology comes from, 127 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,240 which is that you know, you take the conflict with 128 00:08:20,279 --> 00:08:24,240 saying gregor Palamas, you take the conflict with the early councils, 129 00:08:24,319 --> 00:08:26,959 and then you kind of you kind of build theology 130 00:08:27,079 --> 00:08:32,200 around that. But there is a an aspect of living theology, right, 131 00:08:32,279 --> 00:08:35,759 which is the aspect of participation that we are in, 132 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,120 and that is more in the liturgical text and and 133 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,039 the the images that are that are proposed in the icons. 134 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,360 You know, I was thinking about how in during Holy 135 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,480 Week they are all you know, especially in the funeral service, 136 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,679 there are all these beautiful exchanges like this. You have 137 00:08:56,799 --> 00:08:59,759 the Mother of God, you know, telling asking for her 138 00:08:59,799 --> 00:09:02,240 son and to resurrect, and there's all of these images 139 00:09:02,279 --> 00:09:04,679 that are brought about and this discussion that's happening which 140 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,000 is not in the Bible, Like there's a there's a 141 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,279 discussion you know, happening between the Virgin and Christ in 142 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:17,000 our liturgical text which is added to the Bible. But 143 00:09:17,039 --> 00:09:20,120 it's not there just to add details or to some 144 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,600 ways go against the Bible or to you know, this 145 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:25,799 kind of Protestant thing. But it is in some ways 146 00:09:25,799 --> 00:09:28,799 to do a type of theology which is participative, you know. 147 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,200 And so maybe tell us a little bit about why, 148 00:09:31,759 --> 00:09:33,559 like what that is and why that matters. 149 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, and and. 150 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,879 Speaker 1: Someone getting into an argument about well did Christ of 151 00:09:40,919 --> 00:09:44,759 the theotokos actually exchange those exact words would be completely 152 00:09:44,759 --> 00:09:49,159 missing the point, Yes, exactly, it would be just right 153 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,000 like right over completely. But there's also there I want 154 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,039 to add, though, I think in a lot of cases 155 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,480 that's a very reductionistic way of viewing the. 156 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:01,279 Speaker 2: The Ecumenical Councils. 157 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: For example, Yeah, right, when you actually read more about 158 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,320 the Economical Councils right preparing for the second Ecumenical Councils, 159 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,320 that Gregory that theologic is writing poetry about the Holy Trinity, 160 00:10:12,159 --> 00:10:16,960 you know, and and a lot of the fathers. A 161 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,399 lot of what we have are homilies, and rhetoric is 162 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:25,080 an art, yeah, right, the the the art of oration. 163 00:10:25,279 --> 00:10:28,960 And you read about the councils, they're singing hymns, they're 164 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:30,960 bringing in the relics of martyrs. 165 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,799 Speaker 2: Into their midst while they're having these deliberation. 166 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: So it wasn't sort of this you know, academic debate 167 00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:45,360 taking place between areas and rights opponents necessarily right, in 168 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,799 most cases you have to go a lot further forwarding it. 169 00:10:49,919 --> 00:10:55,360 But but yeah, I think a lot of people now 170 00:10:55,639 --> 00:11:00,639 are arriving at some fundamental misunderstandings. So I got asked 171 00:11:00,879 --> 00:11:02,960 one of the One of the eighty three hats I 172 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,600 wear now is that I'm a Marvel Rivals twitch streamer. 173 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,759 Speaker 4: I've heard, I've heard about that. I've heard of them. 174 00:11:09,919 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: So while I'm playing this video game, people come out 175 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,399 and ask me questions. And a lot of times the 176 00:11:16,519 --> 00:11:19,679 questions I get asked because the sort of folks who 177 00:11:19,759 --> 00:11:22,279 like watching people play video games on the Internet are 178 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,879 people who spend a lot of time on the Internet. Yes, 179 00:11:25,639 --> 00:11:30,440 and so whatever, the sort of internet social media theological 180 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,840 controversy du jour is tends to come up, right, and 181 00:11:34,919 --> 00:11:38,960 I get asked about it in these streams, And one 182 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:45,720 of those recently has been about the fate of unbaptized infants. 183 00:11:45,879 --> 00:11:47,159 Speaker 2: Apparent. Okay, yeah, yeah. 184 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: And there are apparently some people who identify as Orthodox 185 00:11:52,039 --> 00:11:56,159 you never know online, but who are trying to argue 186 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,799 for a certain Western view that even the Roman Catholic 187 00:11:59,799 --> 00:12:03,840 tre doesn't hold anymore, right. 188 00:12:05,919 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: Apparently, And. 189 00:12:09,759 --> 00:12:11,639 Speaker 1: People are asking me and pointing out to me, like, well, 190 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,879 what about this Cenic Sarian statement on this day here 191 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:22,559 that's getting quoted, and what about this quote from this 192 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:26,080 local council in the seventeenth century over here? 193 00:12:28,039 --> 00:12:29,879 Speaker 2: They seem to say maybe like. 194 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: You know, and my response to them was, right, well, 195 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,200 hopefully you've never had to experience it, But why don't 196 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:44,159 you go read the funeral service for a child? Read 197 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:49,639 what we actually practice? What do we do when this happens? 198 00:12:49,759 --> 00:12:52,399 Speaker 2: Right? And what are our practices? Right? 199 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: I said, If you read that, I think you'll find 200 00:12:55,879 --> 00:12:58,720 that they're very clearly teaching the opposite of what. 201 00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:01,399 Speaker 2: These other people are saying. 202 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: But notice I use the word teaching there, right, And 203 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,039 they're not teaching in this kind of didactic way. 204 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 2: They're not laying out sort. 205 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: Of these logical propositions. They're singing hymns because someone's child 206 00:13:14,639 --> 00:13:19,639 has died, yeah, and and they're practicing certain things because 207 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,360 this horrible thing has happened in the life of the church. 208 00:13:23,799 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: And so we have to kind of reorient our. 209 00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:34,879 Speaker 1: Whole idea of theology. And it's not conducive to social 210 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:35,759 media debates. 211 00:13:35,799 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: I don't think. 212 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: I don't think people are going to be able to well, here, 213 00:13:40,519 --> 00:13:51,039 here's an icon of this. Therefore you're wrong, right, so right, 214 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:56,080 because it's sort of a different way, right, right of thinking, 215 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:02,200 And what and what brought me to this is ultimately 216 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,799 have it, you know, getting a PhD. In biblical studies 217 00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:08,320 and studying the Bible, right, at a certain point you 218 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,080 have to, I mean, what is the New Testament? The 219 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:17,279 first five books are a series of narratives, and then. 220 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,559 Speaker 2: The rest of it are letters. 221 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: Written from apostles to particular churches dealing with particular situations 222 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,159 that they're having in very particular ways, right, like Saint 223 00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:35,960 Paul saying, hey, you know, return by cloak when I come, right, 224 00:14:36,159 --> 00:14:39,960 like naming people specifically, you know, I'm glad I only 225 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,480 baptize these particular people. 226 00:14:41,559 --> 00:14:43,759 Speaker 2: Well, oh yeah, these people, right, Like. 227 00:14:43,759 --> 00:14:46,679 Speaker 1: It's this very particular thing about the particular lives of 228 00:14:46,679 --> 00:14:52,399 particular people. And sometimes when I say that, people will say, well, 229 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,600 are you saying they're just irrelevant then to us today? 230 00:14:54,799 --> 00:14:59,679 And I'm like, no, right, that doesn't follow. There's this 231 00:14:59,759 --> 00:15:05,159 idea that unless it's just these timeless, logical propositions of truth, 232 00:15:07,399 --> 00:15:10,440 that it's not relevant because we haven't learned how to 233 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:19,279 appreciate this wealth of of theology and theological experience, right, 234 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,879 and how to take that and interpret and apply it. 235 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so how do you say, how 236 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,720 do you see? First of all, obviously I agree with you, 237 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:35,039 because I mean I think it would be obvious for 238 00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:36,919 people to see that I agree with you, because my 239 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,399 whole world is that is not that world, Like my 240 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,679 whole world is the other world, which which I tend 241 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:43,759 to then want to formulate that there is a need 242 00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:45,639 for some of it, like there's a need for some 243 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,600 of the kind of structured the theological uh, you know, 244 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,639 a little bit more debate type thing. But it definitely 245 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:55,000 is is because I see that because I don't. 246 00:15:55,159 --> 00:15:56,039 Speaker 4: It's not my tenancy. 247 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 3: My tendency is really to live in the more imagistic 248 00:15:59,559 --> 00:16:04,120 aspect of the of the life of the church, you know, 249 00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:07,240 But I but I think it is important to help 250 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,759 formulate that for people, Like why it is that these 251 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,000 are the types of this is the theology we live in, 252 00:16:14,039 --> 00:16:18,080 Like the theology we live in is a theology of prayer, 253 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,559 Like it's the theology of of of encountering saints, encountering God, 254 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,399 encountering Christ through the stories, through through the through the 255 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,159 liturgical action. So maybe in terms of like the Book 256 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:33,399 of Jubilees, for example, without using examples from that book, 257 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,960 what why do we have these stories that pop up? 258 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 4: Like what function do they play? 259 00:16:40,039 --> 00:16:43,279 Speaker 3: What do these stories do to help us let's say, 260 00:16:43,279 --> 00:16:46,240 how do they help us to live a fuller life 261 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:47,000 in Christ? 262 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:48,279 Speaker 2: Right. 263 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:56,919 Speaker 1: So, essentially what produces texts like the Book of Jubilees 264 00:16:57,159 --> 00:16:58,759 in the Second Temple period. 265 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,519 Speaker 2: Is the same thing that. 266 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: We're always doing with the Biblical text, which is we're 267 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,559 trying to interpret it and we're trying to apply it right. 268 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,000 We're trying to and interpretation is a step toward applying 269 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:20,759 it right. Meaning interpretation is not oh, there is some meaning. 270 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,480 This text has a meaning that is out there somewhere, right, 271 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,240 and we have to figure out the correct method to 272 00:17:30,319 --> 00:17:36,599 derive it right, like analyzing the grammar, or a more 273 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,359 pious sounding version of this is, well, we need to 274 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,559 just find a holy person, because the Holy Spirit will 275 00:17:42,599 --> 00:17:44,839 kind of whisper that secret meaning in their ear and 276 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,640 then they can tell us, you know. 277 00:17:47,039 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 4: Means right acuman. 278 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: But neither of those is really how this has this 279 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,839 has worked in the past, right. And so people are 280 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,640 hearing these stories in the Second Table period, they're primarily 281 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,319 hearing them in the context of the synagogue, and they're 282 00:18:09,319 --> 00:18:12,799 asking questions and they're trying to understand these stories and 283 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:20,400 what they mean, and so the sort of elaborations and 284 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,880 they're sort of narrative elaborations, which is what throws us 285 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,519 a little as modern people. But these sort of elaborations 286 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:33,000 are essentially a way of doing commentary, yeah, of fleshing 287 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,720 out the story to sort of interpret and apply it. 288 00:18:36,759 --> 00:18:40,000 And so sometimes, and they weren't worried about this, you'll 289 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,519 find what are basically anachronisms. Right, So we're talking about 290 00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:48,000 a story about Abraham that happened in you know, circa 291 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:54,519 two thousand BC, and the added details are clearly stuffed 292 00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:58,720 from say the third or fourth century PC, which is 293 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,480 when around the time the text is written. And scholars 294 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,240 treat this like, oh, they let slip when this was written. See, 295 00:19:05,279 --> 00:19:07,519 they're trying to convince us that Moses wrote this. But 296 00:19:08,319 --> 00:19:10,240 look here they messed up, right. 297 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: Not at all. 298 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: Right, that was not only not a mistake or not 299 00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:21,200 a problem, that was kind of deliberate. They were taking 300 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,000 that story and bringing it into their own time. 301 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 2: Right in a way that. 302 00:19:28,319 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: Made it relevant to and spoke to the life they 303 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,480 were living, you know, in the in the Persian and 304 00:19:35,519 --> 00:19:39,559 then Greek province of Judea, you know, in a very 305 00:19:39,599 --> 00:19:43,319 different situation than Moses was in or Abraham was in, 306 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,680 and that that is is sort of learning to make 307 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,839 that move is a big part of what's required to 308 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,400 apply any to atterpret to reply any of. 309 00:19:59,319 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 2: The t edition, any of our heritage. 310 00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:05,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, as Orthodox Christians, whether it's the scriptures or the Fathers, 311 00:20:05,799 --> 00:20:09,440 or the councils, or the hymns or the right. 312 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 3: And people, it's it's it's important for people to understand 313 00:20:13,039 --> 00:20:16,000 because it might seem harder to see at the outset. 314 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,200 You know that we actually in the Orthodox tradition, we 315 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,480 have several examples of that that come away after the 316 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,119 Book of Jubileese. Right, the Book of Jubilize is something 317 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:29,200 that was written before before Christianity appeared on the scene. 318 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,319 But we have versions of that, and I've pointed to 319 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,960 them often in terms of iconography, which is what I 320 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:35,680 know of the best. 321 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:36,799 Speaker 2: You know. 322 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,039 Speaker 3: A good example is, of course, the inclusion of Saint 323 00:20:39,079 --> 00:20:41,759 Paul in the Ascension, or the inclusion of Saint Paul 324 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,880 at Pentecost. These the everybody knows that in the Bible, 325 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:49,799 Saint Paul is not there at the Ascension and is 326 00:20:49,839 --> 00:20:54,000 not there at Pentecost. But this is a narrative detail 327 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,880 or an imagistic detail which is included in the tradition 328 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,599 in order to help you understands something that has theological significance, 329 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,720 which is that this is not just an event that 330 00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:05,599 happened at this time. 331 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:06,839 Speaker 4: This is the church, right. 332 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,759 Speaker 3: This is an image of the relationship between the Church 333 00:21:09,839 --> 00:21:12,599 and Christ, or the relationship between the Holy Spirit and 334 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,640 the development of the Church. That's a little example, but 335 00:21:17,799 --> 00:21:20,799 in iconography there are plenty of examples. If you see, 336 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,680 for example, Christ standing on doors when he is in 337 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,319 being baptized with snakes coming from under the. 338 00:21:29,319 --> 00:21:30,319 Speaker 4: Doors, you think. 339 00:21:31,759 --> 00:21:34,519 Speaker 3: What is happening in that image, but you realize this 340 00:21:34,599 --> 00:21:38,680 is a liturgical prayer from the blessing of the waters 341 00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:44,640 that is brought into the image of the baptism of 342 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,559 Christ in order to help you understand what is happening 343 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,480 when Christ is being baptized. You know how Christ's baptism 344 00:21:52,839 --> 00:21:56,000 is in some way the sanctification of all of creation 345 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,039 and the sanctification of all the water. So these are 346 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,799 a few examples of what of orthodox examples, these are 347 00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:05,799 the ones that I know the best because they're from iconography, 348 00:22:05,839 --> 00:22:10,559 But there are many many examples of extra biblical traditions 349 00:22:10,599 --> 00:22:16,039 that are narrative or imagistic details added to the story 350 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,920 in order to make to help us participate better and 351 00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:23,880 understand better what is going on in the original story. 352 00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:25,920 So I don't know if there are some examples that 353 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,319 you know in the because I'm more imagistic, but there are, 354 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,079 I know, in the turgical prayers and things like that. 355 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 4: There are plenty of versions of that. 356 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:39,799 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, well, and even so, the Saint Paul 357 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,000 is inclusion and in the senexus of the. 358 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,279 Speaker 2: Twelve Apostles, Saint Paul is there. 359 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very important for how we interpret the. 360 00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:50,759 Speaker 2: Book of Acts. For example. 361 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's this whole episode at the beginning, remember 362 00:22:53,759 --> 00:22:58,039 where Saint Peter kind of steps up and they cast lots. 363 00:22:58,079 --> 00:23:02,680 So they choose Saint Matthiah, who this discussion is in 364 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,599 no way demeaning. He is an apostle of the seventy, right, 365 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:12,559 he's a saint. But the text, what possible way of 366 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,759 reading Acts is that that was actually an incorrect move. Huh, 367 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,599 And just think that it was actually Saint Paul who 368 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,880 Christ chose to replace Judas among the twelve. So somebody 369 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,839 proposes that and he said, well wait, but he doesn't 370 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,640 explicitly say that it acts right, just tells this story. 371 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,160 But then you look at the icon of the synaxis 372 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,359 of the Twelve Apostles, You look at who the twelve 373 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:45,839 Apostles are on an iconostasis. You look at Pentecost, you 374 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:51,480 look where Samathias was and Saint Paul wasn't and Samathias 375 00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:58,119 is not in the icon, and on and on. All 376 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,519 of a sudden you see, well, that interpret right, it's 377 00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:07,279 sort of encoded, is is born out here, right, That 378 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,319 interpretation of the Book of Acts, right, is born out 379 00:24:10,319 --> 00:24:15,799 here in that iconaga graphic tradition, right in other hymnographic traditions. 380 00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:21,319 One thing I noticed this year at Pentecost in our 381 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,480 liturgical triton that I had never noticed before, which amazed me, 382 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,400 and which I've never seen referenced in any of the 383 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,880 mostly bad discussions about this. So obviously there's every year 384 00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:38,200 we get this raft of, oh, isn't it horrible that 385 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:46,920 the hymnography of Holy Week blames quote unquote the Jews 386 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,960 for being complicit in the death of Christ, right, for 387 00:24:51,079 --> 00:24:57,599 handing Jesus over to the Romans to be crucified. And 388 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,400 I only noticed this year, and I don't know why 389 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,559 I'd ever noticed this before, but in the liturgics of Pentecost. 390 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,920 It explicitly says that when the Holy Spirit came upon Jerusalem, 391 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,200 the Holy Spirit purified the Jewish people at Jerusalem of 392 00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:17,039 the sin of having been complicit in the death of Jesus. Really, yes, 393 00:25:17,759 --> 00:25:22,759 so blood libel lasted fifty days according to our liturgical tradition. 394 00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:28,319 Speaker 4: I guess I never noticed that, I mean, and it 395 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:28,880 was forgiven. 396 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: But again, there's not sort of this statement, right, the 397 00:25:36,319 --> 00:25:40,920 statement made it Holy Week, you know about the Jews 398 00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:44,480 or well, we're just talking about the people in Jerusalem 399 00:25:44,519 --> 00:25:46,920 and just at that time, there's none of that is 400 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,240 like spelled out, right, but neither is it all sort 401 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,000 of spelled out that way on Pentecost, right, Yeah, of 402 00:25:53,079 --> 00:25:56,680 course it's just poetically described. The Holy Spirit comes, it 403 00:25:56,759 --> 00:26:04,400 purifies the people of the blood of Christ, right, And 404 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,400 so yeah, I've never heard that brought up, right. I'm 405 00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:10,640 of course going to start bringing it up when people 406 00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:13,640 bring up the Holy Week thing, right. So it's this 407 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,839 one finite group of people for fifty days who had this, 408 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:24,880 you know. But obviously that's very that that's one hymn 409 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,759 in the Pentecost hymns. But that's pretty transformational. 410 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 2: Right if we pay attention to it, right. 411 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,759 Speaker 1: Of of how we understand that earlier hymnography, which and 412 00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:38,519 that earlier hymnography is part of how we understand the 413 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:48,920 biblical stories right of of Christ's death, and so there's 414 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,960 sort of a chain reaction, right, But the liturgics are 415 00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:57,559 interpreting that and preserving this interpretation, this way of this 416 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,000 way of reading, right, which is which is why I 417 00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:03,680 don't like sometimes when people talk about tradition, and they 418 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,759 talk about it is like oral tradition, Like it's, oh, 419 00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:09,559 there's all this secret stuff that just like when they 420 00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:11,839 make you a bishop, they take you into a back room. 421 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 2: And they tell you all they. 422 00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 1: Know, all the stuff right that we don't write down, 423 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:17,720 that we don't tell anyone. 424 00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:21,759 Speaker 2: Right, it's this oral. 425 00:27:21,759 --> 00:27:24,599 Speaker 4: Content, you know, right, Yeah, it's just content. 426 00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:28,559 Speaker 1: As opposed to just us having received a way of 427 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,640 reading and interpreting and applying and understanding right these texts. 428 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and in some ways, you know, the the 429 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,119 example I mean to me, the example that's the most 430 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,839 crying and the most obvious is that, again I go 431 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,039 to the iconography because that's what I know. But it's 432 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:51,160 the cross at the skull of Adam, you know, at 433 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,720 the bottom of the of the cross, right, and so 434 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,839 you know this is not mentioned in the Bible, but 435 00:27:57,799 --> 00:28:01,359 you know, the tradition from which it's taken helps you 436 00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:05,640 understand everything about what salvation is. It helps you understand 437 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,680 what it is that Christ is doing on the cross. 438 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,039 It encompasses the descent into Hades in that little jet, 439 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,640 even in that gesture, right, just having the skull of 440 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,680 Christ or the blood of Christ kind of dripping onto 441 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,680 the skull, you know, it contains the anastosis in it. 442 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,119 There's all of it's such a deep, deep image, and 443 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:25,880 you know, even for the most kind of biblical you 444 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:31,400 could say biblical purist, you know that what's being shown 445 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,960 there is the is the best vision of what it 446 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,119 is Christ is doing on the cross. Even for someone 447 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,160 who wouldn't like the fact that these traditions exist. It's like, theologically, 448 00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:43,359 this is explaining to you what salvation is. And so 449 00:28:43,839 --> 00:28:46,319 you know the fact that this is also encompassed in 450 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,240 the story as like this detail that isn't mentioned in scripture, 451 00:28:49,519 --> 00:28:51,960 it's actually there to help you understand what's going on 452 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,400 when Christ is dying on that cross and. 453 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: Before the iconography, because before Christ's death, right, those traditions 454 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,960 were preserved in some of these Second Temple narrative texts, right, 455 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,799 the Greek and Aramaic lives of Adam and Eve that 456 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,880 describe like Adam's repentance after he goes and he sits 457 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:16,119 on this hill opposite Paradise and they've placed sort of traditionally, 458 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,279 they've placed Paradise in Jerusale where Jerusalem is right, right, 459 00:29:20,319 --> 00:29:23,839 And so he's on this hill outside Jerusalem, right, looking 460 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,839 back at what he's lost, right, and repenting, and that's 461 00:29:27,839 --> 00:29:33,960 where he ends up being buried, right. And again this 462 00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:38,720 is not sort of a free Christian was literally buried there. 463 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 3: Wait, so what okay, so this is I didn't I 464 00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:43,359 didn't know that this was actually there? 465 00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 2: What? What? 466 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 4: When? 467 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: Which? 468 00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 3: Actually this is the in the the Life of Adam 469 00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:47,519 and Eve. 470 00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:49,519 Speaker 1: The Greek there's a Greek life of Adam and even 471 00:29:49,559 --> 00:29:53,759 an Aramaic life of Adam and Eve. They talk about this, Yeah, 472 00:29:55,319 --> 00:29:58,279 stands the Jordan River for forty days. 473 00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:04,279 Speaker 2: Uh huh. That's part of serpents because they've placed Paradise 474 00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:07,359 where Jerusalem is. Right. 475 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,039 Speaker 1: He's looking at what he lost and you can see 476 00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:12,039 the connection there because this is being written by people 477 00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:18,039 who have kind of but not really fully returned from exile, right, yeah, right, 478 00:30:18,119 --> 00:30:21,359 and so Jerusalem represents what they lost for their sin, right, 479 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,880 and so they're connecting that experience. 480 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,279 Speaker 2: So they placed Jerusalem there. 481 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, right, I mean that happened Jerusalem, that some 482 00:30:28,519 --> 00:30:30,960 of the people there explained that that this was part 483 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,359 of the tradition, that it was where the carnibine was. 484 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:34,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. 485 00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:40,039 Speaker 1: And then this hill outside is where Adam ends up 486 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,279 dying and being buried because it's as close as he 487 00:30:43,319 --> 00:30:47,000 can get, right, right, and that's why it becomes known 488 00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:48,119 as the place of the skull. 489 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:49,759 Speaker 2: It was his skull, that's right. 490 00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 3: But okay, so this is oh, yeah, you're blowing my 491 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,519 mind now because I thought, I mean I thought it 492 00:30:54,559 --> 00:30:56,240 was called the place of the Skull and that there 493 00:30:56,319 --> 00:30:59,160 was this this kind of tradition that came later that 494 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:00,519 this is where Adam was buried. 495 00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 4: But I didn't know that it was a pre Christian. 496 00:31:02,319 --> 00:31:04,759 Speaker 2: No, that's a pre Christian. That's why it was called 497 00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:06,200 the hill of a skull. Yeah. 498 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: And so when they point out that that's where Jesus 499 00:31:08,599 --> 00:31:13,119 is dying, right, that's connecting it to all those traditions. 500 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: That's bringing to mind all of those traditions. 501 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 4: Ah, that's wild in the narrative, that's amazing. 502 00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then it also makes you realize that sometimes 503 00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:24,240 like how can I say this, like you could say, 504 00:31:24,559 --> 00:31:27,599 I mean, it's powerful. How you realize that some of 505 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,079 these traditions you also have to be careful to take them, 506 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:35,000 to take them too metaphorically like they sometimes they're actually 507 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,200 capturing something. It's hard to know how God reveals himself too, 508 00:31:39,319 --> 00:31:42,039 right in terms of because when you go to Jerusalem, 509 00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:45,839 you descend into the chapel, right, there's a chapel underneath 510 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,039 the cross, and there's there's this like opening there and 511 00:31:50,079 --> 00:31:53,359 that's where they say, like that that's where Adam's skull was. 512 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,039 If you look at the opening, it actually has the 513 00:31:56,119 --> 00:31:59,240 shape of the opening that you see in especially the 514 00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:03,680 earlier icons where they show Christ on the cross with 515 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,480 Adam's skull. It has this it's kind of like it 516 00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:07,640 has this this kind of shape. 517 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 4: And so it's really. 518 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 3: Fascinating to realize that how like sometimes you think you 519 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,200 know you you you see it more in a mid 520 00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:17,160 rash way where it's like, okay, we're just kind of 521 00:32:17,359 --> 00:32:19,359 I think sometimes it is like we're telling this this 522 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,759 detailed the story in a poetic way to help you 523 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,519 understand what it is. But then you know, I guess 524 00:32:24,519 --> 00:32:27,119 sometimes it connects a lot, a lot more to the 525 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,559 actual way that things happen than we think. 526 00:32:29,839 --> 00:32:31,799 Speaker 2: Well that well, and and that's part of. 527 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,319 Speaker 1: We've lost the ancient understanding of sacred geography. Yeah, yeah, 528 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,720 where we've turned geography just into this material, physical thing 529 00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:46,759 and then sort of spiritual reality is this other thing. 530 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:53,599 But for example, the Acherusian lake lake aturis you find 531 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,599 all over Greek myth, you find in Greek philosopy, So 532 00:32:58,839 --> 00:33:02,200 it's it's the that's formed by the river Styx and Hades, 533 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,559 and that water, of course causes you to forget everything 534 00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:09,039 right in your life. 535 00:33:09,039 --> 00:33:15,519 Speaker 2: It sort of represents oblivion, right. Plato sort of repurposes 536 00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:17,039 it because Plato has this sort. 537 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: Of reincarnational view and he thinks that souls pass through 538 00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:24,559 the Acherusian Lake and forget their former life before they 539 00:33:24,559 --> 00:33:30,599 start a new one. Then this gets repurposed by Christians. 540 00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:37,000 So in some early Christian apocryphal writings, they'll talk about 541 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,200 people in Hades who are saved through the prayers of 542 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:49,359 the saints get baptized in the Acherusian lake. Huh these stories, right, 543 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:53,960 but here's the thing. You could go on a cruise 544 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:59,640 of lake Actress's exactly. Yeah, you could go there right now, right, 545 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,319 And if you ask an ancient person you're like, wait, 546 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,039 this is the lake, they'd be like yes, they'd be like, 547 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,920 we're not in hades, We're alive. 548 00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right yeah. 549 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 3: And it's so aman, it's so hard for for modern people, 550 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,639 like for me, even me, like I'm the mister symbolism. 551 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,280 You know, that breaks my It just breaks me when 552 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,480 I but I know, right, for example, like a simple 553 00:34:26,519 --> 00:34:30,719 example of that is that you know the moon. The 554 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,519 moon is a good example, right, So it's like the 555 00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:35,519 moon that you see, that's the moon that's described in 556 00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,360 all the text, right, it's it's. 557 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:39,119 Speaker 4: The moon where the. 558 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,159 Speaker 3: Circle of the moon where above it, you know, all 559 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,000 things become kind of unchanging. It is that same moon. 560 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,119 But then there's also an there's also an aspect of 561 00:34:51,119 --> 00:34:53,760 it which how can I say, there's an aspect of 562 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,119 it which you can break away from its meaning and 563 00:34:56,159 --> 00:35:00,840 its mythological participation. And then if you you don't have 564 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,360 the eyes to see, right, it's just a it's just 565 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:04,559 a rock floating in space. 566 00:35:04,599 --> 00:35:06,559 Speaker 4: That has it has nothing on it. 567 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 3: Uh, And and I think that's the thing with how 568 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,920 how to find that connection there? You know, we talk 569 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,440 about enchantment or enchanted world. There seems like the saints 570 00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:21,000 or the holy ones, they're able to to live in 571 00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:23,840 that world where you know, you could imagine the story 572 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,400 of a saint, where there would be some encounter at 573 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,519 that lake, which would be mythological in scope. But for me, 574 00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:32,840 I go there and I'm like, mah, you know, it's 575 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,079 like it's just a lake. 576 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:40,159 Speaker 1: Right, Well, that's that's true of sort of everything in everyone. 577 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,599 Speaker 4: Right, I agree, I agree, But it's still like I. 578 00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: When I walk down the street, right, most people don't 579 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,480 pay any attention to me, right like that, There's not 580 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,559 like they don't know who I am. They don't know 581 00:35:51,599 --> 00:35:54,519 that I've written books. They don't they don't know who 582 00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:56,480 my wife is and how she feels about me or 583 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,360 my family. And well, I was right that you just 584 00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:04,400 encounter right things in the world. But there are all 585 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,360 these elements to the reality of what these things are, 586 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,280 and none of that's fake, right, None of that significance, 587 00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:15,920 all that signiferences is real, is just as real as 588 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,800 the physical materiality of it, it's just not immediately available 589 00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:23,199 to us most of the. 590 00:36:23,199 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 3: Time, and it's not available to people who aren't participating. 591 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,599 Speaker 4: Also in the story, it seems something like that. 592 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 1: They're gonna look at the Eucharist and see bread floating 593 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:34,719 and wine. 594 00:36:35,159 --> 00:36:37,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right, that's right. 595 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: And not see anything more than that, right, and not 596 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,400 experience anything more than that. So this is I mean, 597 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,639 this is part and parcel of the whole world being sacramental. 598 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:50,920 But the saints are are attuned to and able to 599 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:55,800 see the significance of people and things in a way 600 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,519 that most of the time we have shut off. Yeah, right, 601 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,760 And and that's that's part of And what that comes 602 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,119 down to ultimately is love. That's really part of what 603 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:07,880 love means. 604 00:37:09,559 --> 00:37:09,679 Speaker 2: Right. 605 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,079 Speaker 1: The difference between the way I encounter most people I 606 00:37:12,159 --> 00:37:16,480 encounter and actually loving them right is seeing who they 607 00:37:16,519 --> 00:37:21,599 are and their significance and their importance, right, and their 608 00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:25,000 relationship to God and to other people in a way that. 609 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,159 Speaker 2: I usually don't. And it's when I come to understand 610 00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:27,639 and see and. 611 00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: Appreciate that that I can actually be said to be 612 00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:30,599 loving them. 613 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:31,079 Speaker 2: Yeah. 614 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 3: I think the way that I remember getting to this 615 00:37:34,199 --> 00:37:36,159 in a way that I tried to make as practical 616 00:37:36,199 --> 00:37:39,960 as possible was the idea. I call it like my 617 00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:43,639 grandmother's cup. Right, So it's like, imagine, my grandmother gave 618 00:37:43,679 --> 00:37:47,599 me this cup right that befirst before she died, and 619 00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:50,239 and it was passed on to her from her her 620 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,719 ancestors or whatever. And then I have this cup that 621 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,519 I use, right, I drink out of it, but I 622 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,000 put it in my cupboard, and in some ways I'm 623 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,039 the one who sees it. I see it like when 624 00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:04,280 I open the cupboard, it jumps at me, it pops 625 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,519 out of me. A stranger would come into my house 626 00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:08,480 and couldn't tell the difference between the cups. 627 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 4: But to say that that there is no difference is wrong. 628 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:12,679 To say that the. 629 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 3: Salience and the shining aspect of that cup, to say 630 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,639 that that doesn't exist is a lie, because that's how 631 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,199 everything exists, right. Everything that I reach out to use 632 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,519 in the particular moment is shining to me right towards 633 00:38:28,519 --> 00:38:29,119 that purpose. 634 00:38:30,039 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 4: But it's just sometimes it's harder sometimes. 635 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 3: To extend it out right and to kind of understand 636 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,760 it on a cosmic level, or to understand it at 637 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,920 a larger level. It's it's more easy, it's easier to 638 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,480 be cynical about that. 639 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. 640 00:38:43,679 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: Well, I think I think in our modern age, we've 641 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:55,840 played this trick on ourselves. And this is I mean, 642 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,559 this is something I said way back when we were 643 00:38:58,599 --> 00:39:02,519 first starting to do a lord of spirit. We made 644 00:39:02,519 --> 00:39:07,159 a trade. We traded that. We traded that sort of 645 00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:11,920 spiritual wisdom and way of viewing the world for a 646 00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:15,599 much greater under scientific understanding of the material world. 647 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, for power, And we did get that. 648 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,639 Speaker 1: We do have a much better right. We have microwaves, 649 00:39:21,639 --> 00:39:24,639 we have right, it does work. It is true that 650 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,639 science is bogus. Right, it's it's real. It works, right, 651 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:37,159 we're talking on the internet right now. Yeah, but we 652 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:42,000 gave up this other thing. Yeah, and having made that 653 00:39:42,159 --> 00:39:45,320 trade makes that other thing hard to recover. 654 00:39:47,199 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 2: Having seen the moon landing. 655 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,199 Speaker 1: Makes it harder to look at the moon and see 656 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,960 the moon the way ancient people saw it. That's why 657 00:39:55,039 --> 00:39:56,199 people deny the moon landing. 658 00:39:57,079 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 4: Right, No, I told you that. 659 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,679 Speaker 3: That's also part of in some ways why now there's 660 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,280 an awkward there's an awkward resistance that's happening kind of 661 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,800 a narrative form. Like I've talked about how the flat 662 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,480 earth stuff is part of that too, when in some 663 00:40:12,519 --> 00:40:16,679 ways there is an intuitive return to the narrative part 664 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,559 of reality, but it's it's kind of it's still mixed 665 00:40:20,559 --> 00:40:24,239 with the scientific meaning of the scientific understanding, and so 666 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,039 it's kind of confused, but it is pointing in some 667 00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:31,840 ways to people's desire to recapture the the mythological landscape 668 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:33,400 or the sacred landscape once again. 669 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, young Earth creationism, same thing. Now you'll get 670 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:43,519 the comments, right, right, But so young Earth creationists like 671 00:40:43,599 --> 00:40:45,760 ken Ham I'm talking about like that. That's yeah, yeah, 672 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,039 that level not just someone who thinks the Earth isn't 673 00:40:48,039 --> 00:40:49,519 that old, That's not what I'm talking about. 674 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 2: I'm talking about like soon like ken Ham. 675 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,599 Speaker 1: Right, Their response to well, science has proven that this 676 00:40:56,639 --> 00:41:00,559 Genesis story is nonsense is not to say, well, no, 677 00:41:00,679 --> 00:41:05,480 you're reading it wrong, and here's what it's really saying, 678 00:41:05,519 --> 00:41:06,960 and here's the real significance. 679 00:41:07,159 --> 00:41:10,079 Speaker 2: It's to say, no, it doesn't. Science pruves it's true. 680 00:41:12,199 --> 00:41:16,760 Speaker 3: Right, and also like it is a scientific text, like 681 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,639 it's literally describing like scientific categories, but which is such 682 00:41:20,639 --> 00:41:22,800 a diminishment of that text, my god. 683 00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:29,679 Speaker 1: Right, and so you don't recapture that ancient wisdom, right, 684 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,519 you're just doing it now, a deformed, incorrect version of science. Right, 685 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,920 So you're losing the good, the good parts of science, right, 686 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,960 and not gaining the other. So it's sort of the 687 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,679 worst of all possible worlds, right to be to be 688 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:46,239 caught in that. 689 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. 690 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 3: And so I I don't know why I'm tempted to 691 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,920 ask you because I never heard you talk about this, 692 00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:56,000 but like this is I think I think, I think 693 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,840 I've never heard talk about this, But what what do 694 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,000 you think this is? Because I think this is all related. 695 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,920 I think that what's going on with the UFO thing 696 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,880 is is related to this, Like there is in some ways, 697 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,320 a there's a kind of sacred landscape or a weirdly 698 00:42:10,519 --> 00:42:14,440 distorted version of sacred landscape that is pushing itself back 699 00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:18,039 into our perception and it's being it's being interpreted, or 700 00:42:18,079 --> 00:42:21,079 it's being kind of assimilated in all kinds of strange 701 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,039 and strange ways that are still kind of hybrid scientific 702 00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:24,840 and all this stuff. 703 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Well, and I think that's that's going on. 704 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:34,039 Speaker 1: With the use of psychedelics, right, They're not going back 705 00:42:34,119 --> 00:42:37,920 to the pagan use of psychedelics right to have divine 706 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,679 visions right there, try and trying to interpret those experiences scientifically, right. 707 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,800 Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean I think I've. 708 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 1: Heard atheists say, right, like, well, aliens putting life here, 709 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:56,159 that would be believable because that could be explained scientifically, 710 00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:05,400 like so promethea sure, but like God, that's ridiculous. Right. Yeah, 711 00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:12,480 it's a way of quasi scientizing spiritual experiences. And that's 712 00:43:12,519 --> 00:43:14,679 why you get a lot of the use UFO stuff 713 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:20,159 is on this fringy new age spirituality, right, It's it's 714 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,719 trying to to acknowledge the validity of those sorts of 715 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:31,920 experiences without deviating from the the realm of science. I 716 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:37,800 think conspiracy theories ultimately come from the same thing, right now, 717 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,880 Obviously people conspire, like groups of people get together and 718 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,920 decide to do things and keep it a secret, right, 719 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:43,880 Like that happens. 720 00:43:45,159 --> 00:43:48,199 Speaker 2: So I'm not saying, like all conspiracy theories are false, 721 00:43:49,039 --> 00:43:49,760 but in a lot. 722 00:43:49,639 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: Of cases, people encounter evil in the world that is 723 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,960 clearly beyond just oh, a group of humans all made 724 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,440 the same bad choice the same time, Right, it's clearly 725 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,599 an evil at a level higher than the human But 726 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,599 if you don't have any spiritual sense of evil. If 727 00:44:11,599 --> 00:44:17,000 you think the idea of a demon is ridiculous and silly, then. 728 00:44:17,039 --> 00:44:17,719 Speaker 2: What do you have. 729 00:44:18,079 --> 00:44:23,159 Speaker 1: Well, this must be you know, some larger you know, 730 00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:26,480 there's people getting together in Europe and you know, or 731 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,880 the Bilderbergs or whoever, right, and they're all doing this 732 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:37,239 behind the scenes and right, rather than just saying well, no, 733 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,519 they're there are demons influencing people, right and influencing masses 734 00:44:41,559 --> 00:44:43,440 of people to do table things, you know. 735 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean obviously, like you said, there there 736 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,519 there can be. There can be a mix of both 737 00:44:48,599 --> 00:44:51,880 to some extent, but in some ways, especially to understand 738 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,840 some world events and some of some things that are 739 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,960 going on, the only really way to truly understand it 740 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,760 is to understand that there are of higher than human intelligence. 741 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,039 Speaker 4: That are acting on us because. 742 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,599 Speaker 3: Especially because of how interestingly how coherent some of the 743 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,679 mythological images that are appearing through these through these stories. 744 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,360 So if you look at, you know, some of the UFO. 745 00:45:18,559 --> 00:45:20,480 That's why, I mean, one of the reasons why it's 746 00:45:20,519 --> 00:45:24,400 been important to talk about the Book of Enoch is 747 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,119 because how a lot of the UFO phenomena connects with 748 00:45:28,159 --> 00:45:30,159 some of the images and some of the ways of 749 00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:33,239 the Book of Enoch talks about technology, talks about I 750 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,760 heard Jane Pisulka recently with the doubt that, you know, 751 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,400 the New York Times guy Katholic guy, where she was 752 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,480 saying he asked him what are the UFOs? 753 00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 4: What are they? 754 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,199 Speaker 3: And she said, well, they're probably a bunch of things, 755 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,679 because on the one hand, there's this spiritual aspect of 756 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,320 encountering these these beings that don't seem to be totally human, 757 00:45:51,559 --> 00:45:54,239 and on the other hand, there's this technology which seems 758 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,039 to be real and seems to be very powerful. And 759 00:45:56,119 --> 00:45:59,159 I was thinking, don't you know that there's a connection 760 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,639 between those two, And that connection is a very old one, 761 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,159 like there's always been this old connection that in some 762 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:10,559 ways technological progress has always, not always, but has often 763 00:46:10,599 --> 00:46:13,840 been seen as related to some kind of spiritual influence 764 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:14,440 on the world. 765 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:15,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 766 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:22,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that pattern that humanity gets knowledge, technological knowledge 767 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,840 before we're ready for it, and the first use we 768 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,840 always put it to is evil because we lack the 769 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:28,360 spiritual wisdom to use it correctly. 770 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 2: It's just born out. 771 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:35,159 Speaker 1: And the example I give is, you know, the US 772 00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:41,719 splits the atom, right, Hey, carbon neutral power, endless supply 773 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,639 of electricity for everyone, right, Like, this would be great, 774 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,199 but no, not only do we turn it into a weapon, 775 00:46:51,199 --> 00:46:54,039 but we drop that weapon on a city that kills 776 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,599 the numerical majority of the Christians in Japan. Yeah, we 777 00:46:58,679 --> 00:46:59,880 drop it on the most Christian city. 778 00:47:04,639 --> 00:47:06,599 Speaker 2: There's something going on there, right. 779 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,159 Speaker 4: Something else going on there. 780 00:47:08,519 --> 00:47:10,079 Speaker 2: It's not just a question of right. 781 00:47:10,119 --> 00:47:11,880 Speaker 1: You'll get the folks who are like, well, no, they 782 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:16,199 dropped it there because there weren't any prison camps with 783 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,480 US soldiers near there. It's like, yeah, that's because that's 784 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,800 where the Christians were. The Japanese imperial government didn't trust 785 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:29,440 the Christians. So but yeah, So that's just a very 786 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:35,239 modern example. Right when we get technology, we instantly do 787 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,760 the wrong thing with it, and it's worse today because 788 00:47:38,519 --> 00:47:41,199 they should pass. There was a possibility eventually we developed 789 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:47,159 some spiritual wisdom and now as we're just talking about, 790 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,599 that's much more difficult for. 791 00:47:49,519 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 2: Us to do. Yeah. 792 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so maybe to kind of to kind of 793 00:47:55,079 --> 00:47:58,880 close us off, give us a sense, maybe help people 794 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,679 understand why. For example, I reading the Book of Jubilees, 795 00:48:02,039 --> 00:48:04,000 you know, looking at these old texts, looking at these 796 00:48:04,039 --> 00:48:08,079 old extra biblical traditions. What is it that they can 797 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,800 offer us as modern people, Like, how can they help 798 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:18,199 us regain this this more wisdom focused vision of the world. 799 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:17,599 Speaker 2: Ye. 800 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,519 Speaker 1: Well, as we've been talking about at one level sort 801 00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:29,519 of methodologically studying Jubilees. If you take this class, for example, 802 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,480 one of the goals is we're going to help you 803 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:37,119 learn how to read this kind of text, Learn how 804 00:48:37,119 --> 00:48:39,480 to read and interpret and apply this kind of text. 805 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,199 How these kind of texts are structured, how they work, 806 00:48:43,079 --> 00:48:46,320 how they teach us theology that kind of thing, which 807 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,199 will then equip you for other texts right to do 808 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:53,840 the same thing. And Jubilees in particular has a lot 809 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:59,800 to say about the patterns of life on earth. It's 810 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,239 called the Book of Jubilees because it's structured around the 811 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:08,679 Jewish calendar, so the sacred calendar, so understandings of how 812 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:13,679 time is made, sacred, understandings of you know, why is 813 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:14,840 the calendar important at all? 814 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:16,760 Speaker 2: You know, why are. 815 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,960 Speaker 1: Orthodox people still fighting about the calendar today? 816 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:20,159 Speaker 2: Right? Like? 817 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:27,440 Speaker 1: Is it that just you know, whatever, issues of the nephilm, 818 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,199 issues of how evil manifests itself in the world and 819 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,480 why and how that relates to God. A big part 820 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,440 of what's going on with the nephilin with the giants 821 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,400 and Jubilees is actually a kind of the odyssey, yeah, 822 00:49:39,639 --> 00:49:42,440 a kind of ancient the odyssey of why does God 823 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:47,800 allow these spirits to operate in the world. There are 824 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,159 a number of particular things in the Book of Jubilees 825 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,119 that make it particularly relevant, particularly interesting, But I'm hoping 826 00:49:54,119 --> 00:49:56,800 that on the whole it will also give some tools 827 00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,239 to people, like we've been talking about that all help 828 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,639 them read other parts of the traditional liturgical tradition, other 829 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:08,320 kinds of texts like these and get the value out 830 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,719 of them and greater understanding. They try to recapture, actually 831 00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,840 recapture some of that spiritual wisdom rather than just going 832 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,880 into science denial and constructing our own pseudoscience right off 833 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:22,480 to the side. 834 00:50:23,679 --> 00:50:24,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 835 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,599 Speaker 3: And so everybody, I am looking forward myself. I am 836 00:50:27,639 --> 00:50:30,880 going to take this class, and then on the last class, 837 00:50:31,039 --> 00:50:33,280 Father Stephen and I are going to have a discussion 838 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,119 about the things that he taught, and so I will 839 00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:38,880 be following very carefully, and I'll be following the class. 840 00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,519 I can't wait to see because I've read Jubilee I 841 00:50:41,559 --> 00:50:43,559 read it a long time ago. I read Jubilees like 842 00:50:43,559 --> 00:50:46,480 twenty years ago, and so I am excited to go 843 00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:49,840 back into that text and to also see it's how 844 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,239 it's relevant, especially like you said, in terms of everything 845 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,599 that's going on. You know, when Saint Peter says as 846 00:50:56,639 --> 00:50:59,400 in the time of Noah, it feels like, you know, 847 00:50:59,519 --> 00:51:02,480 we are a lot of things happening in our society 848 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,840 today are as in the time of know And so 849 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,559 it is it is incumbent on us to understand what 850 00:51:08,639 --> 00:51:10,920 that means when Saint Peter says that, what it is 851 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,840 that he's talking about, and how how it's applicable to 852 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,800 our world today. So Father Stephen, thanks for everything you do. 853 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,519 You know, I always feel like we're partners in in 854 00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:23,960 in interesting ways where we kind of on these these 855 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,719 parallel tracks where things where You're doing all these things, 856 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,159 I'm doing all these things, and I can see how 857 00:51:28,159 --> 00:51:28,760 they cross over. 858 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,119 Speaker 4: And sometimes I'm always I'm like, like. 859 00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:33,079 Speaker 3: Like the thing you told me about, go go to 860 00:51:33,199 --> 00:51:35,239 I'm like, wow, I need to listen to your podcast 861 00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:36,719 more because that's amazing. 862 00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:40,519 Speaker 2: Well, thank god, thank you, Jolah. 863 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,039 Speaker 3: All right, everyone, so sign up for the class, and 864 00:51:43,159 --> 00:51:46,079 uh and I will I'll see you there during the class. 865 00:51:46,119 --> 00:51:46,639 Speaker 4: Thanks father. 866 00:51:47,159 --> 00:51:50,039 Speaker 3: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to 867 00:51:50,079 --> 00:51:52,760 the symbolic world dot com website and see how you 868 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,920 can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers 869 00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,880 with perks. There are apparel in books to purchase. So 870 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,159 go to the Symbolic World and thank you for your support.