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We're prohibited by mock 27 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:00.359 eighteen plus terms and conditions applaing. See website for down. 28 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:11.519 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 29 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:14.680 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 30 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:22.000 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 31 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.719 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 32 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:30.359 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 33 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:34.799 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 34 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:47.280 Good Evening. Every once in a great while, a genuine 35 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:50.599 murder mystery unfolds before the eyes of the American public. 36 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:54.079 The tragic story of Susan Powell and her murdered boys, 37 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:57.319 Charlie and Braden, is the only case that rivals the 38 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:01.760 John Benet Ramsay saga in the Annals of Crime. When 39 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:04.519 the pretty blonde Utah mother went missing in December of 40 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.439 two thousand and nine, the media was swept up in 41 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:13.319 the story, with lenses and microphones trained on Susan's husband, Josh. 42 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:15.800 He said he had no idea what happened to his 43 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:18.280 young wife, and that he and the boys had been 44 00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:22.120 camping in the middle of a snowstorm. Over the next 45 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:25.439 three years, bombshell by bombshell, the story would reveal more 46 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:30.800 shocking secrets. Josh's father, Steve, who was sexually obsessed with Susan, 47 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:37.120 would ultimately be convicted of unspeakable perversion. Josh's brother Michael 48 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:40.520 would commit suicide, and in the most stunning event of 49 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:43.560 them all, Josh Powell would murder his two little boys 50 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:48.719 and kill himself with brutality beyond belief. It will be 51 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:54.560 eleven years December sixth since Susan Cox's Powell disappeared. Her 52 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:58.719 story is still unfolding. A definitive update on the case 53 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:03.840 will air on ABC's twenty on Friday, November sixth. The 54 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:06.159 New York City crew came to Seattle in early March 55 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:08.800 to interview Rebecca, just as the city was locking down 56 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:12.439 for COVID. The crew was there for the very important 57 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.680 court trial involving the Washington State Department of Health and 58 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:19.240 Human Services and the responsibility and the deaths of Charlie 59 00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.159 and Braden. There are other events happening this week that 60 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:27.400 could postpone the airing of the twenty twenty program November sixth. 61 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:30.680 The book that we're featuring this evening is if I 62 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:35.560 Can't have you update Susan Powell. Her mysterious disappearance and 63 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:38.080 the murder of her children with my special guest, journalist 64 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:41.919 and author Rebecca Morris. Welcome back to the program, and 65 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:44.759 thank you so much for this interview. Rebecca Morris. 66 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:47.520 Hi Dan, so great to be with you again. 67 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:52.520 Thank you so much. It's always great to have you. 68 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:57.039 And considering the developments in this case, we felt it 69 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:01.319 important that people revisit this case once again, and thank 70 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:04.080 you so much for coming on talking about it. Let's 71 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:08.319 talk about just some of the things that I alluded 72 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:12.199 to about ABC's twenty twenty on Friday. Tell us a 73 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:17.879 little bit about your interaction with ABC and before we 74 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:21.439 talk about the the court case, the court trial that 75 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:26.480 they were in town in Seattle for to cover. So 76 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:30.240 let's let's talk about your experience with ABC's twenty twenty. 77 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:37.240 So the Susan Cox Powell case, and somewhere in the 78 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:41.680 last few years, the family decided to start using you know, 79 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:45.879 put her maiden name in there because especially trying to 80 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:49.879 distance themselves from the Powells. So these days she's called 81 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:53.480 Susan Cox Powell. And the case has really never been 82 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:57.399 you know, out of the public eye or away from 83 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:01.800 the media much because, as you explained, over this eleven years. 84 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:05.879 I mean, this is a story that just keeps unfolding, 85 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:09.800 and you know, we don't even know if we're you know, 86 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:11.279 if there's an end to it now. 87 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:12.120 Uh. 88 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.480 So it's been, it's been on. It's been the topic 89 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:20.240 of television shows before, uh the Investigation Discovery Channel and 90 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:24.360 uh HLN and you know, I've I've worked, I've been 91 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:27.759 interviewed before rather with other other production companies, have done 92 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:31.360 other things, and it's been Uh it was a podcast 93 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:36.319 in the last year from Salt Lake City uh television station. 94 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:41.199 But uh, but you know, twenty twenty has done uh 95 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:44.439 some of the best coverage over the years, and they 96 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:47.439 they wanted to revisit it, and this was, of course, 97 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:51.680 Uh all the planning was you know, before COVID. But 98 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:57.240 I've worked with twenty twenty before on uh Ted Bundy program, 99 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.160 uh a year or two ago. So I'm I mean 100 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.839 it was Uh it was interesting because they they came 101 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:06.839 to Seattle. I mean literally must have been the last 102 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:10.800 plane in and out of Seattle before COVID, cause it 103 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:16.000 was uh very early March, and uh, as usual, uh 104 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:19.879 as production crews and networks do, they rented a a space, 105 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:23.759 you know, downtown Seattle, a big loft where you know 106 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:27.959 we could set up. Uh, the city was already dead. 107 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:30.439 I mean it, you know, we couldn't even find a 108 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:37.839 restaurant to to have a meal at m And uh, 109 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:40.680 you know, they just are really professional to work with, 110 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:46.920 and and they were also obviously interviewing many many other people. 111 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.000 I'm I'm I'm sure, I'm just a a tiny part 112 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:52.759 of this, but uh, they always talked to the you know, 113 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:57.120 Susan's parents and attorney in Bremner, and I'm sure people 114 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:01.680 in Utah. And one of the things about you know, 115 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:05.439 both books and television shows is you have to find 116 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:10.360 something new to say because it's been done before. But 117 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:14.079 I think, you know, this was timed to coincide with 118 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:17.319 the court case. The same producer that came up from 119 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.759 twenty twenty had been here the week or two before 120 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:25.279 to attend the jury trial on the wrongful death suit 121 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:28.920 that we're going to talk about, and then that trial 122 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:33.560 was interrupted because of COVID. But now we have a 123 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:36.560 decision in that. So it was just it was just 124 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:39.759 a kind of odd time. I was scheduled to do 125 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:47.279 other TV programs in the spring, and they everything mostly 126 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:51.759 got postponed. I did. I was interviewed for two programs 127 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:56.439 on other stories where they hired a local crew in Seattle, 128 00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:59.959 and you know, we sat in a conference room. Everybody 129 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.120 wore a mask. There were just two crew people in 130 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:06.959 me and the producer was on the other end of 131 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:11.360 a cell phone asking questions or on zoom. So just 132 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:16.879 you know, it was possible to still produce programs during COVID, 133 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:21.240 but you know, crews couldn't travel, and it was just 134 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.519 it's it's you know, just one of of course, millions 135 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:30.639 of small things that have been affected by by the pandemic. 136 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:38.559 M Now we talked about or mentioned the Washington State 137 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:42.759 Department of Health and Human Services, tell us what was 138 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:45.759 the heart of this in terms of what was what 139 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:50.120 were the issues that were addressed at this and what 140 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:53.720 was the result. And of course this is what the 141 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:57.559 media was also interested in. Part of the new part 142 00:08:57.600 --> 00:08:59.720 of this story is the. 143 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:02.600 New part of the story is this wrongful death suit. 144 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:06.639 And I've updated it also in the in the book 145 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.759 If I Can't Have You. It's funny every year there's 146 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:12.360 been that date to the back of the book because 147 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:17.919 so many things have happened. This was brought because of course, 148 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:25.080 there was never an arrest in Susan Coxpewll's disappearance, her husband, 149 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:29.279 you know, a suspect, the person of interest was never charged. 150 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:32.879 Nobody was ever charged. And I've learned a lot the 151 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:36.519 last couple of years about what are literally called no 152 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:41.720 body case cases. A no body case is when there's 153 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:45.679 no body found, and Susan's ever been found. It often 154 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:50.960 means that prosecutors don't bring charges because the best way 155 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:54.240 of getting a conviction is if you have the evidence, 156 00:09:54.320 --> 00:10:00.080 you know, from a body being found, and so with 157 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:04.360 without that, you know, attorneys sometimes you know, have to 158 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:10.919 get creative and uh Ann Bremner, Seattle attorney who's UH 159 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.000 done a lot of UH, worked on a lot of 160 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:18.799 UH cases over the years, usually UH pro being bringing 161 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:24.120 charges UH for families that that the prosecutors don't bring 162 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:29.639 and she UH one of the only things they could 163 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:32.919 try to do to to you know, find justice was 164 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:38.240 to Josh Powell's not around to to be able to 165 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:44.000 to charge him with anything. So they made UH, you know, frankly, 166 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:45.919 what I think is a really uh a very good 167 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:51.600 case against the State of Washington for UH the when 168 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:54.879 when Susan's sons Charlie and Braden we're in we're in 169 00:10:54.919 --> 00:11:01.080 protective custody. So as you know, after Susan dissapp hear Josh, 170 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:05.120 you know, very quickly within a week packed up his home. 171 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:09.600 You'd think he'd stay and looked, sure why, but he didn't. 172 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:12.039 He packed up his house and the kids moved to 173 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:16.159 his father's in uh puell Up, Washington where they grew up. 174 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:22.480 And then you had two states involved in trying to 175 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:26.159 UH keep track of this man and his family because 176 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:31.279 Washington State was still I was UH now now had 177 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:37.279 some responsibilities because the UH children eventually were in custodial care, 178 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:42.759 and while UTAH was still conducting an investigation of UH 179 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:51.399 Susan's disappearance. While you know, I saw all the records 180 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:54.799 and it was really I don't know if I've ever 181 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:57.960 been shot so shocked as when I read those records 182 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:01.720 about what Charlie and Brayden, the the lives they led 183 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:07.879 that last couple of years of their lives. As as 184 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:10.519 I think we've talked about on this on this program before. 185 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:18.399 Sure they were taken from Josh's custody UH when his father, Steve, 186 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:24.120 who you mentioned, was UH charged with both pornography and voyeurism. 187 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:27.159 So they were taken from the house. They were uh 188 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:32.840 temporarily placed with their per grandparents, citizens parents, uh as 189 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:38.200 foster parents. So they were under now the protection of 190 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:42.960 the d Department of Health and Human Services in UH 191 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:47.480 Washington State or what's commonly called CPS Child Protected Services. 192 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:52.600 Josh still had a visitation with them twice a week, 193 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:59.039 which was uh lax. Uh. I think it'd be fair 194 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:06.799 to to call it that. And the the protection they 195 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:11.519 did or didn't get during the last year and a 196 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:17.440 half of their life is is what was it question here? 197 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:20.679 And what was the basis for the wrongful death suit? 198 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:24.639 And uh, if you'd like me to explain the details 199 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:27.559 of what that was, I can go into. 200 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:30.799 Detail, absolutely, go ahead and do. Okay. 201 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:36.320 Well, they there was of course a caseworker who was 202 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.559 uh always accompanied, you know, she drove the boys to 203 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:46.679 and from their visitations with Josh because because Josh was 204 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:51.080 so much in the news, the other parents at the 205 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:55.159 building where he usually would have had his custody visits, 206 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.600 so there would have been some security, some staff around, 207 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:02.679 you know, other parents coming and going to see their children. 208 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:08.000 They the the parents didn't want him having his visitations there. 209 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:12.279 He was just very strange. So he was allowed to 210 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:16.399 have uh one of his visitations every week at the 211 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:20.639 home of the minister who lived across the street from 212 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:26.320 Josh's father, Steve, who you know had taken uh an 213 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:31.360 interest in the family and was trying to help Josh. 214 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:37.080 So visitations were there, and then along the way the 215 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:41.559 state decided that a second visitation during the week Josh 216 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:46.320 could have at this rental home. Josh should rented a 217 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:51.879 house not far from his father's house, uh empty put 218 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:55.480 you know, a few sticks of furniture in it, and 219 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:00.840 was basically pretending to live there, and and the boys 220 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:07.360 would have one of their visits there, and that's where 221 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:12.320 they died ultimately, because they raced ahead of the the 222 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:17.200 caseworker that day, February twelfth, two thousand twelve, and he 223 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.879 shut the door in her face. But what what I 224 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:25.200 found out when I looked at uh fortunately in time 225 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:30.360 when I was rewriting the book, is that the boys 226 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:34.559 that had physical exams as part of their uh you know, 227 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:41.519 being in protective custody, they had strange rashes on their body, 228 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:47.279 they bodies. They told their grandfather that the that Josh 229 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:52.960 slipt nude with them. They were obviously in a house, well, 230 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:56.639 they were in a house that uh where their grandfather, 231 00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:07.399 Steve Powell, was producing an enormous trove of pornography and voyeurism, 232 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.720 and you know, who knows what they were exposed to 233 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:16.799 in that sense. Uh. The boys once they went to 234 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:22.480 live with their grandparents, Chuck found them once they were 235 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:25.440 you know, taking the baths together. They were four and 236 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.600 six years old at the time, and one was trying 237 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:31.679 to drown the other in the bathtimes and Chuck that 238 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:34.840 it was not a game, It was not a game. 239 00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:42.039 Something had so damaged those boys between the day their 240 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:47.759 mother disappeared in two thousand and nine and when they 241 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:52.799 died in two thousand twelve, just you know, they had 242 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:59.480 really been damaged and most likely molested. Living with their 243 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:07.160 father and grandfather, they drew pictures of uh I think 244 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:09.200 it was uh Brandon, who was the youngest, drew a 245 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:14.279 picture of a you know, telling telling a d an 246 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:18.240 adult to stay away from him and not not to 247 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:24.519 mess with him. They also were remembering some things about 248 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:30.319 the last night, you know, of their mother's life. Uh. 249 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:32.599 Josh had always said, you know, he took the boys 250 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.039 camping winter camping is a it's a d real thing 251 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:39.240 in Utah, even if it's you know, below freezing, and 252 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:42.240 it was a blizzard. Uh. And that he left Susan 253 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.640 at home, the boy said, And they and they drew 254 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:49.599 pictures that their mother was sleeping in the back of 255 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:54.400 the van and that they left her out, you know, 256 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:57.960 in the desert. H with the crystals, with the rock 257 00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:01.319 The boys were really interested in looking at rocks and things, 258 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:05.119 and so they were remembering more. But they were, you know, 259 00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:10.400 physically and emotionally had they acted a a out you know, 260 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:16.759 a lot after their mother died. And you know, they 261 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:20.799 were so fortunate to have the love of of Judy 262 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.599 and Chuck Cox for the last couple of years, but 263 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:29.240 they had definitely been harmed. And that was the basis 264 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.880 of the wrongful death suit. And again this is this 265 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:39.519 is one of very few paths that a family can 266 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:47.480 take if criminal changes are never brought against somebody. And 267 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:53.079 so that was the basis of the UH lawsuit. And 268 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:57.359 the fact that you know Chuck Cox, who by his 269 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:02.720 career was he was a faa F crash investigator. He 270 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:08.039 knew about investigations, he knew about burned bodies, you know, 271 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:13.240 he knew this stuff and was very proactive, and he 272 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:20.319 warned especially uh Utah police, but warned CPS in Washington 273 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:25.480 State for many, many months that Josh was gonna hurt 274 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:33.960 those boys, and nobody believed him. So when they finally 275 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:38.759 brought UH, their first attempt at bringing UH a wrongful 276 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:43.880 death suit was dismissed by a lower court. But finally 277 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:51.519 it was able to proceed. And the what I thought 278 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:55.440 was really fascinating. I don't know if this happens with 279 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:59.519 other cases, but but Anne Bremner and her team were 280 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:05.839 able to point to how many seconds Charlie and Braden 281 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:11.839 suffered once their father closed that door on the caseworker, 282 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:16.920 and they asked for a certain n you know, dollar 283 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:24.920 amount for every minute that each boy suffered, because we 284 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:29.440 know from evidence of the scene that the first thing, well, 285 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.279 Josh had prepared for this. He'd bought cans of gasoline, 286 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:38.160 he'd given away things, he'd sent you know, text to 287 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:42.359 the emails saying goodbye. He'd emptied his bank account, he 288 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:46.440 had an axe, and he was prepared for when those 289 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:50.640 boys came that Sunday afternoon, Super Bowl Sunday, two thousand twelve, 290 00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:57.440 he shut the door on the caseworker. He struck both 291 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:01.599 boys in the head with an axe. He poured gasoline 292 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:06.880 on them and himself and the house exploded and they 293 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:11.079 could figure out how many you know, I I believe 294 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:18.519 it was seven minutes that those boys suffered before they died, 295 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:23.200 and so the reward amount for the suit was was 296 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.759 tied to that. The the jury trial here uh in 297 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:32.039 Pierce County, Washington was was interrupted by COVID. There was 298 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:36.480 uh some discussion about, gosh, do they just start all over, 299 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.799 or did they get a different jury, or you know, 300 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:44.359 do they reach some tentative settlement, But everybody really wanted 301 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:47.039 to continue the trial, so it picked up months later. 302 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:53.079 And I'm sure the video of that is is on YouTube. 303 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:56.799 You know, everybody's just just the Coxes there and the 304 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:00.400 attorneys and the judge, and everybody's masked, and it's another 305 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:05.000 world to see a trial going on during during COVID, 306 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:10.440 and they had some witnesses, and the jury awarded more 307 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:16.200 than anybody predicted, more than was being asked. They awarded 308 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:21.559 ninety eight million dollars to the family. Now that's been appealed, 309 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:26.480 and uh, even the judge in that case couldn't believe 310 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:30.720 that it was such a big award, and it's been 311 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:35.720 it's been uh cut in in by by two thirds, 312 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:40.880 so I believe it's thirty eight million now. But basically, 313 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:44.880 the state of Washington has a has a has uh 314 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:50.839 a jury has agreed that those boys could have their lives, 315 00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:54.720 could have been saved and weren't. And I think it's 316 00:22:54.799 --> 00:23:01.960 such an important message for other states and other courts. 317 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:05.839 And yes, let's see says as an opportunity just to 318 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:07.480 stop for a second for these messages. 319 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:09.960 It is Ryan here, and I have a question for you. 320 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.119 What do you do when you win? 321 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:12.640 Like? 322 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:15.799 Are you a fist pumper, a wooer, a handclapp or 323 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:17.640 a high fiver? I kind of like the high five. 324 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.440 But if you want to hone in on those winning moves, 325 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:22.759 check out Chumbuck Casino. At chumbacasino dot com, choose from 326 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:25.440 hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to 327 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:29.240 redeem serious cash prize. There are new game releases weekly, 328 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:32.200 plus free daily bonuses, so don't wait start having the 329 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:34.960 most fun ever at chumba Casino dot com. 330 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.000 No, we're not necessarily dally void where everybody lost the 331 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:38.559 terms conditions eating, Plus. 332 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:47.559 We talked about this incredible jury settlement or recommended settlement 333 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:55.599 and thirty eight million dollars, so incredible validation of what 334 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.960 had happened and their responsibility Washington State Department of Health 335 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.680 and Human Services. What's very very interesting out of that 336 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:09.440 is the court case that was the impetus in court 337 00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:14.279 in the custody battle. Josh believed that he could gain 338 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:20.319 custody of his children wrongfully, but there was conditions for 339 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:24.720 him to try to gain custody of his children, and 340 00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:30.240 that was this psycho sexual examination. Tell us about this 341 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:35.240 reason for this and what this effect of this evaluation 342 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:40.319 and its result and the court case result and what 343 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:43.960 you believe and Chuck believed was the react was the 344 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.680 result of this court decision. 345 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:54.279 That was that led to Josh's, you know, terrible decision 346 00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:57.079 to kill the children in himself. Let me make one 347 00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:03.519 quick correction. The the the A judge reduced the award 348 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:08.759 to thirty two point eight million and from from a 349 00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:16.000 from ninety eight million. The the decision that led to 350 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:21.720 that seemed to make Josh feel cornered. He he had 351 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:26.279 been optimistic that he was gonna win custody, but I 352 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:29.400 I don't you know, he he never would have uh, 353 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:37.160 there had been. But the the last minute sort of 354 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:40.960 turn of events that that led to all this is 355 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:46.079 that w at the last minute, you know, during this 356 00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:51.000 UH custody hearing, when he and the Coxes were fighting 357 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:58.559 for custody of the boys, the UH Utah investigators had 358 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:07.759 informed the attorneys in Washington State, the state actually arguing 359 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:12.240 for the for the costs, that child pornography had been 360 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:16.400 found on Josh, Josh's computer in Utah that had been 361 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:21.759 there at the time Susan disappeared. And right, there's probably 362 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:24.319 a lot more on that computer. They've never been able 363 00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:27.799 to They've still never been able to, you know, break 364 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:31.039 through all the firewalls and the all the coding and everything. 365 00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:36.319 But they'd found some kind of child pornography. And if 366 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:40.039 Washington State had known that, you know, Utah had known 367 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:45.400 that for you know, two or three years, it's just 368 00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:49.720 inconceivable they didn't share that information while this was going on. 369 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:57.000 But they told, yeah, the attorneys this in February twenty twelve, 370 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:03.279 and that you know, some new conditions on Josh, and 371 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:09.680 he was I think he was terribly terribly angry and 372 00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:12.559 frustrated by that. He'd gone into court on that on 373 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:18.240 that very day, the feeling very optimistic, telling people you 374 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:20.640 know that he felt really optimistic. He was going to 375 00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:23.119 go home with his children that day. And then what 376 00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:27.519 he hears is that, no, you know, there's some conditions 377 00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:30.880 you have to meet. And one is because because we 378 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:34.519 know now about your computer, you're going to have to 379 00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:39.680 have what's called a psychosexual exam. So that is besides 380 00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:44.039 for more in depth, uh, psychological exam. A psychosexual exam 381 00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:47.839 is when I suppose there must be a way to 382 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:51.880 give one to a to a a female defendant. I 383 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.480 don't know, but with a male defendant there you know, 384 00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:04.640 penile response is measured when they are shown different pornographic images. Right, 385 00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:11.519 and he was, you know, very That seemed to be 386 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.240 the tipping point, and Chuck Cox told everybody, you know, 387 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:18.960 this is not good. I'm really worried about Josh now. 388 00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:26.240 And so within day Josh had begun he'd planned I 389 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:29.880 don't think he'd planned this before. I think that's very 390 00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:34.480 much the thing that got him thinking about, well, the 391 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:37.799 only thing he could do to get even I mean, 392 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.920 he he really, you know, hated Susan's parents, hated the 393 00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:45.440 Mormon Church, which you know Susan had was still a 394 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:49.160 member of and the Coxes were members of and and 395 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:51.640 he'd grown up in the church, but he had left it. 396 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:54.079 He he just had so much hate in him and 397 00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:59.440 he planned this without as far as we know, without 398 00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:04.400 telling anybody. And it meant again, you know, paying some bills, 399 00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:09.119 cleaning out his bank account, leaving instructions with a couple 400 00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:12.319 of people about you know what needed to be done, 401 00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:17.480