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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. Every once in a great while, a genuine
Speaker 5: murder mystery unfolds before the eyes of the American public.
Speaker 5: The tragic story of Susan Powell and her murdered boys,
Speaker 5: Charlie and Braden, is the only case that rivals the
Speaker 5: John Benet Ramsay saga in the Annals of Crime. When
Speaker 5: the pretty blonde Utah mother went missing in December of
Speaker 5: two thousand and nine, the media was swept up in
Speaker 5: the story, with lenses and microphones trained on Susan's husband, Josh.
Speaker 5: He said he had no idea what happened to his
Speaker 5: young wife, and that he and the boys had been
Speaker 5: camping in the middle of a snowstorm. Over the next
Speaker 5: three years, bombshell by bombshell, the story would reveal more
Speaker 5: shocking secrets. Josh's father, Steve, who was sexually obsessed with Susan,
Speaker 5: would ultimately be convicted of unspeakable perversion. Josh's brother Michael
Speaker 5: would commit suicide, and in the most stunning event of
Speaker 5: them all, Josh Powell would murder his two little boys
Speaker 5: and kill himself with brutality beyond belief. It will be
Speaker 5: eleven years December sixth since Susan Cox's Powell disappeared. Her
Speaker 5: story is still unfolding. A definitive update on the case
Speaker 5: will air on ABC's twenty on Friday, November sixth. The
Speaker 5: New York City crew came to Seattle in early March
Speaker 5: to interview Rebecca, just as the city was locking down
Speaker 5: for COVID. The crew was there for the very important
Speaker 5: court trial involving the Washington State Department of Health and
Speaker 5: Human Services and the responsibility and the deaths of Charlie
Speaker 5: and Braden. There are other events happening this week that
Speaker 5: could postpone the airing of the twenty twenty program November sixth.
Speaker 5: The book that we're featuring this evening is if I
Speaker 5: Can't have you update Susan Powell. Her mysterious disappearance and
Speaker 5: the murder of her children with my special guest, journalist
Speaker 5: and author Rebecca Morris. Welcome back to the program, and
Speaker 5: thank you so much for this interview. Rebecca Morris.
Speaker 6: Hi Dan, so great to be with you again.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. It's always great to have you.
Speaker 5: And considering the developments in this case, we felt it
Speaker 5: important that people revisit this case once again, and thank
Speaker 5: you so much for coming on talking about it. Let's
Speaker 5: talk about just some of the things that I alluded
Speaker 5: to about ABC's twenty twenty on Friday. Tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit about your interaction with ABC and before we
Speaker 5: talk about the the court case, the court trial that
Speaker 5: they were in town in Seattle for to cover. So
Speaker 5: let's let's talk about your experience with ABC's twenty twenty.
Speaker 6: So the Susan Cox Powell case, and somewhere in the
Speaker 6: last few years, the family decided to start using you know,
Speaker 6: put her maiden name in there because especially trying to
Speaker 6: distance themselves from the Powells. So these days she's called
Speaker 6: Susan Cox Powell. And the case has really never been
Speaker 6: you know, out of the public eye or away from
Speaker 6: the media much because, as you explained, over this eleven years.
Speaker 6: I mean, this is a story that just keeps unfolding,
Speaker 6: and you know, we don't even know if we're you know,
Speaker 6: if there's an end to it now.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 6: So it's been, it's been on. It's been the topic
Speaker 6: of television shows before, uh the Investigation Discovery Channel and
Speaker 6: uh HLN and you know, I've I've worked, I've been
Speaker 6: interviewed before rather with other other production companies, have done
Speaker 6: other things, and it's been Uh it was a podcast
Speaker 6: in the last year from Salt Lake City uh television station.
Speaker 6: But uh, but you know, twenty twenty has done uh
Speaker 6: some of the best coverage over the years, and they
Speaker 6: they wanted to revisit it, and this was, of course,
Speaker 6: Uh all the planning was you know, before COVID. But
Speaker 6: I've worked with twenty twenty before on uh Ted Bundy program,
Speaker 6: uh a year or two ago. So I'm I mean
Speaker 6: it was Uh it was interesting because they they came
Speaker 6: to Seattle. I mean literally must have been the last
Speaker 6: plane in and out of Seattle before COVID, cause it
Speaker 6: was uh very early March, and uh, as usual, uh
Speaker 6: as production crews and networks do, they rented a a space,
Speaker 6: you know, downtown Seattle, a big loft where you know
Speaker 6: we could set up. Uh, the city was already dead.
Speaker 6: I mean it, you know, we couldn't even find a
Speaker 6: restaurant to to have a meal at m And uh,
Speaker 6: you know, they just are really professional to work with,
Speaker 6: and and they were also obviously interviewing many many other people.
Speaker 6: I'm I'm I'm sure, I'm just a a tiny part
Speaker 6: of this, but uh, they always talked to the you know,
Speaker 6: Susan's parents and attorney in Bremner, and I'm sure people
Speaker 6: in Utah. And one of the things about you know,
Speaker 6: both books and television shows is you have to find
Speaker 6: something new to say because it's been done before. But
Speaker 6: I think, you know, this was timed to coincide with
Speaker 6: the court case. The same producer that came up from
Speaker 6: twenty twenty had been here the week or two before
Speaker 6: to attend the jury trial on the wrongful death suit
Speaker 6: that we're going to talk about, and then that trial
Speaker 6: was interrupted because of COVID. But now we have a
Speaker 6: decision in that. So it was just it was just
Speaker 6: a kind of odd time. I was scheduled to do
Speaker 6: other TV programs in the spring, and they everything mostly
Speaker 6: got postponed. I did. I was interviewed for two programs
Speaker 6: on other stories where they hired a local crew in Seattle,
Speaker 6: and you know, we sat in a conference room. Everybody
Speaker 6: wore a mask. There were just two crew people in
Speaker 6: me and the producer was on the other end of
Speaker 6: a cell phone asking questions or on zoom. So just
Speaker 6: you know, it was possible to still produce programs during COVID,
Speaker 6: but you know, crews couldn't travel, and it was just
Speaker 6: it's it's you know, just one of of course, millions
Speaker 6: of small things that have been affected by by the pandemic.
Speaker 5: M Now we talked about or mentioned the Washington State
Speaker 5: Department of Health and Human Services, tell us what was
Speaker 5: the heart of this in terms of what was what
Speaker 5: were the issues that were addressed at this and what
Speaker 5: was the result. And of course this is what the
Speaker 5: media was also interested in. Part of the new part
Speaker 5: of this story is the.
Speaker 6: New part of the story is this wrongful death suit.
Speaker 6: And I've updated it also in the in the book
Speaker 6: If I Can't Have You. It's funny every year there's
Speaker 6: been that date to the back of the book because
Speaker 6: so many things have happened. This was brought because of course,
Speaker 6: there was never an arrest in Susan Coxpewll's disappearance, her husband,
Speaker 6: you know, a suspect, the person of interest was never charged.
Speaker 6: Nobody was ever charged. And I've learned a lot the
Speaker 6: last couple of years about what are literally called no
Speaker 6: body case cases. A no body case is when there's
Speaker 6: no body found, and Susan's ever been found. It often
Speaker 6: means that prosecutors don't bring charges because the best way
Speaker 6: of getting a conviction is if you have the evidence,
Speaker 6: you know, from a body being found, and so with
Speaker 6: without that, you know, attorneys sometimes you know, have to
Speaker 6: get creative and uh Ann Bremner, Seattle attorney who's UH
Speaker 6: done a lot of UH, worked on a lot of
Speaker 6: UH cases over the years, usually UH pro being bringing
Speaker 6: charges UH for families that that the prosecutors don't bring
Speaker 6: and she UH one of the only things they could
Speaker 6: try to do to to you know, find justice was
Speaker 6: to Josh Powell's not around to to be able to
Speaker 6: to charge him with anything. So they made UH, you know, frankly,
Speaker 6: what I think is a really uh a very good
Speaker 6: case against the State of Washington for UH the when
Speaker 6: when Susan's sons Charlie and Braden we're in we're in
Speaker 6: protective custody. So as you know, after Susan dissapp hear Josh,
Speaker 6: you know, very quickly within a week packed up his home.
Speaker 6: You'd think he'd stay and looked, sure why, but he didn't.
Speaker 6: He packed up his house and the kids moved to
Speaker 6: his father's in uh puell Up, Washington where they grew up.
Speaker 6: And then you had two states involved in trying to
Speaker 6: UH keep track of this man and his family because
Speaker 6: Washington State was still I was UH now now had
Speaker 6: some responsibilities because the UH children eventually were in custodial care,
Speaker 6: and while UTAH was still conducting an investigation of UH
Speaker 6: Susan's disappearance. While you know, I saw all the records
Speaker 6: and it was really I don't know if I've ever
Speaker 6: been shot so shocked as when I read those records
Speaker 6: about what Charlie and Brayden, the the lives they led
Speaker 6: that last couple of years of their lives. As as
Speaker 6: I think we've talked about on this on this program before.
Speaker 6: Sure they were taken from Josh's custody UH when his father, Steve,
Speaker 6: who you mentioned, was UH charged with both pornography and voyeurism.
Speaker 6: So they were taken from the house. They were uh
Speaker 6: temporarily placed with their per grandparents, citizens parents, uh as
Speaker 6: foster parents. So they were under now the protection of
Speaker 6: the d Department of Health and Human Services in UH
Speaker 6: Washington State or what's commonly called CPS Child Protected Services.
Speaker 6: Josh still had a visitation with them twice a week,
Speaker 6: which was uh lax. Uh. I think it'd be fair
Speaker 6: to to call it that. And the the protection they
Speaker 6: did or didn't get during the last year and a
Speaker 6: half of their life is is what was it question here?
Speaker 6: And what was the basis for the wrongful death suit?
Speaker 6: And uh, if you'd like me to explain the details
Speaker 6: of what that was, I can go into.
Speaker 5: Detail, absolutely, go ahead and do. Okay.
Speaker 6: Well, they there was of course a caseworker who was
Speaker 6: uh always accompanied, you know, she drove the boys to
Speaker 6: and from their visitations with Josh because because Josh was
Speaker 6: so much in the news, the other parents at the
Speaker 6: building where he usually would have had his custody visits,
Speaker 6: so there would have been some security, some staff around,
Speaker 6: you know, other parents coming and going to see their children.
Speaker 6: They the the parents didn't want him having his visitations there.
Speaker 6: He was just very strange. So he was allowed to
Speaker 6: have uh one of his visitations every week at the
Speaker 6: home of the minister who lived across the street from
Speaker 6: Josh's father, Steve, who you know had taken uh an
Speaker 6: interest in the family and was trying to help Josh.
Speaker 6: So visitations were there, and then along the way the
Speaker 6: state decided that a second visitation during the week Josh
Speaker 6: could have at this rental home. Josh should rented a
Speaker 6: house not far from his father's house, uh empty put
Speaker 6: you know, a few sticks of furniture in it, and
Speaker 6: was basically pretending to live there, and and the boys
Speaker 6: would have one of their visits there, and that's where
Speaker 6: they died ultimately, because they raced ahead of the the
Speaker 6: caseworker that day, February twelfth, two thousand twelve, and he
Speaker 6: shut the door in her face. But what what I
Speaker 6: found out when I looked at uh fortunately in time
Speaker 6: when I was rewriting the book, is that the boys
Speaker 6: that had physical exams as part of their uh you know,
Speaker 6: being in protective custody, they had strange rashes on their body,
Speaker 6: they bodies. They told their grandfather that the that Josh
Speaker 6: slipt nude with them. They were obviously in a house, well,
Speaker 6: they were in a house that uh where their grandfather,
Speaker 6: Steve Powell, was producing an enormous trove of pornography and voyeurism,
Speaker 6: and you know, who knows what they were exposed to
Speaker 6: in that sense. Uh. The boys once they went to
Speaker 6: live with their grandparents, Chuck found them once they were
Speaker 6: you know, taking the baths together. They were four and
Speaker 6: six years old at the time, and one was trying
Speaker 6: to drown the other in the bathtimes and Chuck that
Speaker 6: it was not a game, It was not a game.
Speaker 6: Something had so damaged those boys between the day their
Speaker 6: mother disappeared in two thousand and nine and when they
Speaker 6: died in two thousand twelve, just you know, they had
Speaker 6: really been damaged and most likely molested. Living with their
Speaker 6: father and grandfather, they drew pictures of uh I think
Speaker 6: it was uh Brandon, who was the youngest, drew a
Speaker 6: picture of a you know, telling telling a d an
Speaker 6: adult to stay away from him and not not to
Speaker 6: mess with him. They also were remembering some things about
Speaker 6: the last night, you know, of their mother's life. Uh.
Speaker 6: Josh had always said, you know, he took the boys
Speaker 6: camping winter camping is a it's a d real thing
Speaker 6: in Utah, even if it's you know, below freezing, and
Speaker 6: it was a blizzard. Uh. And that he left Susan
Speaker 6: at home, the boy said, And they and they drew
Speaker 6: pictures that their mother was sleeping in the back of
Speaker 6: the van and that they left her out, you know,
Speaker 6: in the desert. H with the crystals, with the rock
Speaker 6: The boys were really interested in looking at rocks and things,
Speaker 6: and so they were remembering more. But they were, you know,
Speaker 6: physically and emotionally had they acted a a out you know,
Speaker 6: a lot after their mother died. And you know, they
Speaker 6: were so fortunate to have the love of of Judy
Speaker 6: and Chuck Cox for the last couple of years, but
Speaker 6: they had definitely been harmed. And that was the basis
Speaker 6: of the wrongful death suit. And again this is this
Speaker 6: is one of very few paths that a family can
Speaker 6: take if criminal changes are never brought against somebody. And
Speaker 6: so that was the basis of the UH lawsuit. And
Speaker 6: the fact that you know Chuck Cox, who by his
Speaker 6: career was he was a faa F crash investigator. He
Speaker 6: knew about investigations, he knew about burned bodies, you know,
Speaker 6: he knew this stuff and was very proactive, and he
Speaker 6: warned especially uh Utah police, but warned CPS in Washington
Speaker 6: State for many, many months that Josh was gonna hurt
Speaker 6: those boys, and nobody believed him. So when they finally
Speaker 6: brought UH, their first attempt at bringing UH a wrongful
Speaker 6: death suit was dismissed by a lower court. But finally
Speaker 6: it was able to proceed. And the what I thought
Speaker 6: was really fascinating. I don't know if this happens with
Speaker 6: other cases, but but Anne Bremner and her team were
Speaker 6: able to point to how many seconds Charlie and Braden
Speaker 6: suffered once their father closed that door on the caseworker,
Speaker 6: and they asked for a certain n you know, dollar
Speaker 6: amount for every minute that each boy suffered, because we
Speaker 6: know from evidence of the scene that the first thing, well,
Speaker 6: Josh had prepared for this. He'd bought cans of gasoline,
Speaker 6: he'd given away things, he'd sent you know, text to
Speaker 6: the emails saying goodbye. He'd emptied his bank account, he
Speaker 6: had an axe, and he was prepared for when those
Speaker 6: boys came that Sunday afternoon, Super Bowl Sunday, two thousand twelve,
Speaker 6: he shut the door on the caseworker. He struck both
Speaker 6: boys in the head with an axe. He poured gasoline
Speaker 6: on them and himself and the house exploded and they
Speaker 6: could figure out how many you know, I I believe
Speaker 6: it was seven minutes that those boys suffered before they died,
Speaker 6: and so the reward amount for the suit was was
Speaker 6: tied to that. The the jury trial here uh in
Speaker 6: Pierce County, Washington was was interrupted by COVID. There was
Speaker 6: uh some discussion about, gosh, do they just start all over,
Speaker 6: or did they get a different jury, or you know,
Speaker 6: do they reach some tentative settlement, But everybody really wanted
Speaker 6: to continue the trial, so it picked up months later.
Speaker 6: And I'm sure the video of that is is on YouTube.
Speaker 6: You know, everybody's just just the Coxes there and the
Speaker 6: attorneys and the judge, and everybody's masked, and it's another
Speaker 6: world to see a trial going on during during COVID,
Speaker 6: and they had some witnesses, and the jury awarded more
Speaker 6: than anybody predicted, more than was being asked. They awarded
Speaker 6: ninety eight million dollars to the family. Now that's been appealed,
Speaker 6: and uh, even the judge in that case couldn't believe
Speaker 6: that it was such a big award, and it's been
Speaker 6: it's been uh cut in in by by two thirds,
Speaker 6: so I believe it's thirty eight million now. But basically,
Speaker 6: the state of Washington has a has a has uh
Speaker 6: a jury has agreed that those boys could have their lives,
Speaker 6: could have been saved and weren't. And I think it's
Speaker 6: such an important message for other states and other courts.
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Speaker 5: We talked about this incredible jury settlement or recommended settlement
Speaker 5: and thirty eight million dollars, so incredible validation of what
Speaker 5: had happened and their responsibility Washington State Department of Health
Speaker 5: and Human Services. What's very very interesting out of that
Speaker 5: is the court case that was the impetus in court
Speaker 5: in the custody battle. Josh believed that he could gain
Speaker 5: custody of his children wrongfully, but there was conditions for
Speaker 5: him to try to gain custody of his children, and
Speaker 5: that was this psycho sexual examination. Tell us about this
Speaker 5: reason for this and what this effect of this evaluation
Speaker 5: and its result and the court case result and what
Speaker 5: you believe and Chuck believed was the react was the
Speaker 5: result of this court decision.
Speaker 6: That was that led to Josh's, you know, terrible decision
Speaker 6: to kill the children in himself. Let me make one
Speaker 6: quick correction. The the the A judge reduced the award
Speaker 6: to thirty two point eight million and from from a
Speaker 6: from ninety eight million. The the decision that led to
Speaker 6: that seemed to make Josh feel cornered. He he had
Speaker 6: been optimistic that he was gonna win custody, but I
Speaker 6: I don't you know, he he never would have uh,
Speaker 6: there had been. But the the last minute sort of
Speaker 6: turn of events that that led to all this is
Speaker 6: that w at the last minute, you know, during this
Speaker 6: UH custody hearing, when he and the Coxes were fighting
Speaker 6: for custody of the boys, the UH Utah investigators had
Speaker 6: informed the attorneys in Washington State, the state actually arguing
Speaker 6: for the for the costs, that child pornography had been
Speaker 6: found on Josh, Josh's computer in Utah that had been
Speaker 6: there at the time Susan disappeared. And right, there's probably
Speaker 6: a lot more on that computer. They've never been able
Speaker 6: to They've still never been able to, you know, break
Speaker 6: through all the firewalls and the all the coding and everything.
Speaker 6: But they'd found some kind of child pornography. And if
Speaker 6: Washington State had known that, you know, Utah had known
Speaker 6: that for you know, two or three years, it's just
Speaker 6: inconceivable they didn't share that information while this was going on.
Speaker 6: But they told, yeah, the attorneys this in February twenty twelve,
Speaker 6: and that you know, some new conditions on Josh, and
Speaker 6: he was I think he was terribly terribly angry and
Speaker 6: frustrated by that. He'd gone into court on that on
Speaker 6: that very day, the feeling very optimistic, telling people you
Speaker 6: know that he felt really optimistic. He was going to
Speaker 6: go home with his children that day. And then what
Speaker 6: he hears is that, no, you know, there's some conditions
Speaker 6: you have to meet. And one is because because we
Speaker 6: know now about your computer, you're going to have to
Speaker 6: have what's called a psychosexual exam. So that is besides
Speaker 6: for more in depth, uh, psychological exam. A psychosexual exam
Speaker 6: is when I suppose there must be a way to
Speaker 6: give one to a to a a female defendant. I
Speaker 6: don't know, but with a male defendant there you know,
Speaker 6: penile response is measured when they are shown different pornographic images. Right,
Speaker 6: and he was, you know, very That seemed to be
Speaker 6: the tipping point, and Chuck Cox told everybody, you know,
Speaker 6: this is not good. I'm really worried about Josh now.
Speaker 6: And so within day Josh had begun he'd planned I
Speaker 6: don't think he'd planned this before. I think that's very
Speaker 6: much the thing that got him thinking about, well, the
Speaker 6: only thing he could do to get even I mean,
Speaker 6: he he really, you know, hated Susan's parents, hated the
Speaker 6: Mormon Church, which you know Susan had was still a
Speaker 6: member of and the Coxes were members of and and
Speaker 6: he'd grown up in the church, but he had left it.
Speaker 6: He he just had so much hate in him and
Speaker 6: he planned this without as far as we know, without
Speaker 6: telling anybody. And it meant again, you know, paying some bills,
Speaker 6: cleaning out his bank account, leaving instructions with a couple
Speaker 6: of people about you know what needed to be done,
Speaker 6: taking taking things to a storage area, you know, getting
Speaker 6: away the kid's toys. If somebody had been watching him,
Speaker 6: I they might've, but nobody was watching him, and that,
Speaker 6: you know, it reminds me so much of after Susan disappeared,
Speaker 6: and he was still in in Utah for a couple
Speaker 6: of weeks and then moving to Washington State. They didn't
Speaker 6: seemed to be watching him or trailing him or you know, uh,
Speaker 6: I h, there's backtracking a bit, but the the uh
Speaker 6: A day after Susan disappeared, you know, and they'd taken
Speaker 6: his van to search, and you know, he went to
Speaker 6: the Salt Lake City Airport and rented a car and
Speaker 6: was missing for right, you know, twenty four hours. I mean,
Speaker 6: they nobody was really keeping cats on him, you know, it, Chuck. Uh,
Speaker 6: Chuck told me, you know, a lot of things. One day,
Speaker 6: I mean he used to when he knew the caseworker
Speaker 6: had picked up the boys, you know, and taken them
Speaker 6: to this house that was Josh was running, you know,
Speaker 6: uh co Uh, Chuck wasn't supposed to be anywhere near it,
Speaker 6: but he might you know, drive by to kind of that.
Speaker 6: Everything was, you know, as as should be. But I
Speaker 6: think it was the psychosexual exam that got you know,
Speaker 6: really put Josh in a corner. And Chuck told everybody,
Speaker 6: you know, naw, this is it. He's really Josh is
Speaker 6: really cornered. Now, Josh does not behave well when when
Speaker 6: he's cornered, and he he plotted this, this murder suicide
Speaker 6: and uh, you know, I don't uh think that he
Speaker 6: as far as I know, he didn't. He said a
Speaker 6: couple the texts that could be interpreted as goodbyes to
Speaker 6: his attorney and to a sister, and that was pretty much.
Speaker 5: Yet what about one of the most amazing, vivid and
Speaker 5: horrifying scenes that pops up when you read this is
Speaker 5: about Elizabeth Griffin Hall, the social worker that is the
Speaker 5: person that delivers the children to these visits. And you
Speaker 5: describe that in that day that she drops those kids off,
Speaker 5: but also just before that there is talk of a surprise.
Speaker 5: She hears that as well, and the Coxes here about
Speaker 5: this surprise. Tell us about this surprise, and before we
Speaker 5: talk about the actual horrifying day when Griffith Hall goes
Speaker 5: and delivers the kids, and tell us about that.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I think about her a lot, probably
Speaker 6: as much as I think about you know, Susan and
Speaker 6: the Coxes and the boys at at the time. I believe,
Speaker 6: I believe for many years I was the only interview
Speaker 6: she gave M and it was probably, you know, like
Speaker 6: a y a year after the event. I think she's done,
Speaker 6: you know, one or two other interviews now, but you know,
Speaker 6: she's just, you know, just a in a terrible situation.
Speaker 6: The surprise was, you know, she arrived with the boys
Speaker 6: and as they ran ahead of her, you know how
Speaker 6: children are, they ran up the sidewalk to the front
Speaker 6: door of the house and Josh was there with the
Speaker 6: door open, and he greeted them, and before she could
Speaker 6: get in, he shut the door in her face. But
Speaker 6: he she heard him say, Charlie, I've got a surprise
Speaker 6: for you. And I, you know, does that mean I
Speaker 6: I'm gonna murder you or uh I you know, h
Speaker 6: who knows what he meant. But it's chilling when you
Speaker 6: know of that, you know it later is just is
Speaker 6: just chilling. I've got a surprise for you. And one
Speaker 6: of the the next thing, she she could smell Jasoline,
Speaker 6: and you know, she had formed a real, a real
Speaker 6: bond with these these kids and just in those you know,
Speaker 6: several minutes a couple of times a week where she
Speaker 6: would drive them and and be present and uh, you know,
Speaker 6: it's just a just a frendous experience for her.
Speaker 5: And when she does go to the to the door,
Speaker 5: you you you, I know it's hard to talk about it,
Speaker 5: but the the exchange between her and josh Is is
Speaker 5: just remarkable. And I think if you could give us
Speaker 5: that exchange, because it's absolutely amazing. When she calls nine
Speaker 5: to one one and frustration those excruciating seven minutes. So
Speaker 5: he's tell us about that.
Speaker 6: Well, he's the children are brunn ahead, and he he
Speaker 6: turns and smiles at Elizabeth, you know, where grins or smirks.
Speaker 6: That's the last thing she sees and and then he
Speaker 6: shuts the door and she hears him say I'm a
Speaker 6: surprise for you, trolly, and then pretty s she's she
Speaker 6: n pounds on the door. She says, Josh has to
Speaker 6: let me in. Josh has to let me in. She
Speaker 6: can smell, you know, gasoline, and uh so not natural gas,
Speaker 6: but the gasoline, and she uh her c her phone
Speaker 6: is in the car, so uh when he won't open
Speaker 6: the door and it's locked, she goes to her car, uh,
Speaker 6: which is in the driveway, and gets her phone. The
Speaker 6: first thing she does is call her office, and she's
Speaker 6: instructed to call nine one one, and at some point
Speaker 6: she also knows to move her car because if something's
Speaker 6: gonna happen, So she gets her car out of the driveway,
Speaker 6: she calls nine one one and uh that call in
Speaker 6: a transcript of that call is easy to find on
Speaker 6: YouTube or anywhere on the internet. It's it's just harrowing
Speaker 6: because you know, she gets a gentleman who I forget
Speaker 6: how many years he'd been on a job, but you know,
Speaker 6: he wasn't new and he you know, she tries to
Speaker 6: explain what's going on. She's been locked out of this
Speaker 6: house during a custody visit, and she smells gasoline, and
Speaker 6: you know, it's hard to read and hear because we
Speaker 6: think of him, you know, how can you be so stupid?
Speaker 6: He's asking her what what? What color is your car?
Speaker 6: What is your license plate? You know, what are you?
Speaker 3: Who are you?
Speaker 6: What are you doing there? And then he actually tells her,
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, you know, I'm sorry, lady, but you know,
Speaker 6: we have to respond to emergency calls first. And she says,
Speaker 6: this is the life death emergency. And he's still asking,
Speaker 6: you know, various questions and says that he'll uh sends
Speaker 6: and eventually we can hear a fire truck in the
Speaker 6: in the background. It goes on for it will seems forever,
Speaker 6: but it's a I believe it's at least three minutes
Speaker 6: and Kay and I don't think she's still on the
Speaker 6: phone with him when the house explodes, but it it,
Speaker 6: it explodes, uh pretty quickly and uh. He he gave
Speaker 6: an interview later that course, that was just the worst experience.
Speaker 6: And he you know, he was following protocol and he
Speaker 6: said he did know. You know, she was telling him,
Speaker 6: Elizabeth was telling him, you know, this is Josh Powell.
Speaker 6: This is Josh Powell, who's a suspect in his wife's disappearance.
Speaker 6: This is and he said later he knew who Josh
Speaker 6: Powell was, but he it just didn't register, you know,
Speaker 6: with with what she was telling him. And you know,
Speaker 6: as you can probably tell, I, I mean I have
Speaker 6: sympathy for people who are were caught in this. I mean,
Speaker 6: nobody is responsible except for Josh Powell. No, but that's
Speaker 6: you know, if my if my sympathy shows through, well
Speaker 6: you know, so be it. I y, you know, I
Speaker 6: I think it was terrible, terrible state circumstances. And you know,
Speaker 6: I uh, I know that Elizabeth I'm not I don't
Speaker 6: know if she ever went back to work. I don't
Speaker 6: think she went back to work full time, but m
Speaker 6: she or her supervisor told me later she no longer
Speaker 6: takes you know, the hard cases. She had a PhD.
Speaker 6: And was, you know, the most qualified person you could
Speaker 6: they'd think of to to do cust you know, to
Speaker 6: be an I a caseworker on something like this. But
Speaker 6: you know who who could have thought of of the
Speaker 6: terror that Josh planned for that day? So, uh, the
Speaker 6: house exploded, she she was there, you know, the police
Speaker 6: and fire units arrived and the her you know, the
Speaker 6: house uh was uh, you know, burned to the ground
Speaker 6: pretty much, some of the frame was still there. So
Speaker 6: I'd been watching this story for a few years, kind
Speaker 6: of you know, hoping Susan would be found or there'd
Speaker 6: be some kind of a an ending. Publishers like endings.
Speaker 6: You know. The story still doesn't have an ending. But
Speaker 6: the Uh, I was driving on a a freeway in
Speaker 6: Seattle when I heard on the radio that the house
Speaker 6: had exploded and burned, and I thought I was gonna
Speaker 6: drive off the road. I yeah, And then to realize
Speaker 6: and then to find out that it was it was planned,
Speaker 6: it wasn't some accident. So I went. I went to
Speaker 6: the house the next day, and I started working on
Speaker 6: the story. And uh went to see cause you know,
Speaker 6: you have to go you have to you have to
Speaker 6: go there, you have to go to the scene of
Speaker 6: all these things, and and uh and already there were
Speaker 6: you know, purple ribbons on the fence around the house.
Speaker 6: Purple was Susan's favorite color. And mm and it was
Speaker 6: uh just uh, you know, just a terrifying day. And
Speaker 6: to think that unfortunately, this jury, you know, agreed that
Speaker 6: with a with a lot of people and with Susan's family.
Speaker 6: This could have been prevented. This could have been prevented
Speaker 6: if people had if the stated paid attention more to
Speaker 6: Josh and the threat he presented and hit the threat
Speaker 6: to his children.
Speaker 5: Yeah, let's use this as an opportunity to stop for
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Speaker 5: Details these messages. Now we talked about that there was
Speaker 5: only one real person responsible, the dispatcher that basically hung up,
Speaker 5: and then she had to call another dispatcher to tell
Speaker 5: her about Now the building, the home. The rented home
Speaker 5: was with the three people in it, the two children
Speaker 5: that were in her care occasionally or lately, but the
Speaker 5: thing is that police believed that Josh's father had something
Speaker 5: to do with this particular disappearance and also Josh's brother.
Speaker 5: It was fascinating the investigation that the police try to
Speaker 5: endeavor to connect Steve and to connect brother Mike with this.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about this endeavor to try
Speaker 5: to do that and what it results with in terms
Speaker 5: of criminal charges for Steve and what happens to brother Mike.
Speaker 6: You know, this is something that I think everybody's still
Speaker 6: trying to sort out. And the you know, Susan, the
Speaker 6: case of Susan's disappearance in Utah is is closed. That
Speaker 6: was closed in two thousand thirteen, but uh s, there
Speaker 6: have been some private searches for her and there's some
Speaker 6: people investigators that you know help Chuck. And basically they've
Speaker 6: tried to chart where did Josh drive during that twenty
Speaker 6: four hours he had the rental car. Well, they know
Speaker 6: the rental car that he they know he drove eight
Speaker 6: hundred miles, So they looked closely at you know, where
Speaker 6: would he have gone if it was four hundred miles
Speaker 6: in one direction and the four hundred miles back to
Speaker 6: leave the car at the airport and in the not
Speaker 6: until after uh, Josh and the kids were dead did
Speaker 6: they find out more about both Steve and his brother
Speaker 6: Mike's you know, where they were, where they were during
Speaker 6: that period of time. You know, it's easy to assume that,
Speaker 6: you know, when we found out so much about Steve
Speaker 6: and you know what a creepy was and how he
Speaker 6: when Susan and Josh had you know, he was sexually
Speaker 6: obsessed with his daughter in law. He you know, I
Speaker 6: read every page of this. I think it's a twenty
Speaker 6: thousand page journal that Steve had kept over the years,
Speaker 6: and it reminds me of what a you know, really naive,
Speaker 6: immature juvenile would write. Because he was all about his
Speaker 6: obsession with Susan, and he wrote that he thought, you know,
Speaker 6: she divorced Josh and sh and he would marry her
Speaker 6: and raise the kids. And but you know, he we know,
Speaker 6: he followed her. Steve followed her around pallup with his
Speaker 6: camera when she wasn't looking, and you know, liked to
Speaker 6: take pictures of her and her and her legs and
Speaker 6: you know, saved her tampons when she was living in
Speaker 6: his house, just all kinds of really cepy stuff. So
Speaker 6: it was easy you know, to think that maybe he
Speaker 6: had some role in her disappearance, although to me that
Speaker 6: would be the opposite of Steve's behavior. He was so
Speaker 6: you know, obsessed with her. I I don't I've never
Speaker 6: really thought that he would have helped get rid of her.
Speaker 6: And in fact, they eventually proved that he, you know,
Speaker 6: was in Washington State the day she disappeared in Utah, right,
Speaker 6: some people still challenge that, but but there's absolutely no evidence.
Speaker 6: And then uh, we found out later in two thousand
Speaker 6: thirteen that that Michael Josh's brother, who was a graduate
Speaker 6: student in Minnesota that often lived again. You know, there's
Speaker 6: the fan, there's Steve Powell's home in pew Alup, Washington,
Speaker 6: where he's grown kids, you know, except for one daughter,
Speaker 6: who you know, escaped to a more normal life. Most
Speaker 6: of his adult children lived there off and on all
Speaker 6: the time. And it's it's just kind of a really
Speaker 6: weird place. But Mike was in usually in either pew
Speaker 6: all Up or Minnesota. Later, but the an investigator happened
Speaker 6: to be at a salvage yard in Oregon when the
Speaker 6: salvage yard you know where abandoned cars are, got a
Speaker 6: phone call from somebody in Minnesota. Well, it was Michael
Speaker 6: Powell wondering if his car was still there that he'd
Speaker 6: left there a couple of years before, and here's this
Speaker 6: investigators standing there. I mean, it's really freaky coincidental. And
Speaker 6: so Utah police now know that Mike Powell had probably
Speaker 6: helped Josh in some way get rid of Susan and
Speaker 6: on his way there. So there's a route for the
Speaker 6: listeners who maybe don't know the western half of the
Speaker 6: United States very well. Utah is huge land masks and
Speaker 6: one of the things they looked at were abandoned mines
Speaker 6: in Utah. Well, there are ten thousand abandoned mines in Utah,
Speaker 6: summer boarded up, some aren't. But then there's there's a route,
Speaker 6: a northern route where you could drive from Salt Lake
Speaker 6: City too pl Washington on kind of a straight, a
Speaker 6: straight path, and right this town where the salvad yard
Speaker 6: was was on that path. And so then the thinking became, okay, uh,
Speaker 6: Josh put Susan somewhere on the night that that he
Speaker 6: took her into boys out in the van. But then
Speaker 6: a couple of days later he moved her body, and
Speaker 6: his brother helped him move the body and so she
Speaker 6: must have been in this re rental car or maybe not.
Speaker 6: I'm not I don't think they ever looked for DENI
Speaker 6: or found DNA in the in the rental car. But right, Uh,
Speaker 6: when they finally took uh dogs to the salvea jard
Speaker 6: where Mike's car was, the dogs alerted on his car.
Speaker 6: They didn't find specifically her DNA, but they did alert
Speaker 6: to their having been a corpse in the body. And
Speaker 6: so the police then you tell the police go to
Speaker 6: visit uh Michael Powell in Minnesota where he's a graduate student,
Speaker 6: and uh they'd questioned him before, of course, and he's
Speaker 6: very much his brother's defender. Well by now his his
Speaker 6: brother's dead, but he's still is his brother's defender. And
Speaker 6: and they let him know that they have his car.
Speaker 6: And almost a year to the date that Josh uh
Speaker 6: died and killed the kids, Michael Powell jumps off a
Speaker 6: building in Minnesota and inmid suicide. And so that's you know,
Speaker 6: it's clear that he helped. And uh so now they've
Speaker 6: done you know, they've done some searches along that road
Speaker 6: that is a different part of Utah and I'm Idaho
Speaker 6: incidentally than uh where Josh said he'd gone winter camping
Speaker 6: with the kids, which was more uh southwest uh Utah
Speaker 6: and where they uh uh did their original searches. So
Speaker 6: it's it's really interesting. I found a uh email a
Speaker 6: memo uh uh about when they went to tell Steve
Speaker 6: so see s see s. Pow By now was in
Speaker 6: prison for child pornography or voyeurism, and they they went
Speaker 6: to tell him, uh first of all, that you know
Speaker 6: that uh Josh and the boys were dead, and that
Speaker 6: a year later about his son Michael, and uh his
Speaker 6: visible response to them, the only reaction they saw was anchor. Yeah,
Speaker 6: you know, he seemed cranky for a few days, and
Speaker 6: that was sort of uh his re his reaction. And
Speaker 6: so he also had defended Josh, you know, to the
Speaker 6: very end. And I'm uh one of the uh few
Speaker 6: people that think that he didn't that Josh. I'm sorry
Speaker 6: that Steve Powell wasn't really clued in or not that
Speaker 6: he you know, we know, he he wasn't in Utah
Speaker 6: to day Susan disappeared. But his son, they knew he
Speaker 6: had a big mouth, and they knew and they must
Speaker 6: have known he wrote everything down. I don't think they
Speaker 6: ever told him what really happened. I have a hunch
Speaker 6: that he didn't know where Susan was and that, you know,
Speaker 6: he didn't really know what his sons had done because
Speaker 6: I don't think they trusted him.
Speaker 5: So then it's interesting.
Speaker 6: Yeah, when he died, When Steve Powell died of a
Speaker 6: heart attack a couple of years ago, you know, everybody thought, oh,
Speaker 6: you know, the last person has taken the secrets to
Speaker 6: you know, his grave. But I just have a feeling
Speaker 6: he didn't know where Susan was.
Speaker 5: You say that that you don't believe he had any idea,
Speaker 5: But police thought it was interesting and more than interesting
Speaker 5: that he had so many conversations with his son around
Speaker 5: that time, around the disappearance and before. And you also write,
Speaker 5: which very interesting is Steve's personal family history, which seems
Speaker 5: to be have these eerie parallels. Maybe you could just
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about that as well.
Speaker 6: Oh, well, you're you're right, those are very uh interesting.
Speaker 6: Kind of the kind of sidelines to this is that
Speaker 6: in the last few days before Susan disappeared, uh, Josh
Speaker 6: was the Josh spent most of his time those last
Speaker 6: few years in the basement of their house in West
Speaker 6: Valley City, Utah, you know, on his computers and on
Speaker 6: his phone, and he they know he talked to his
Speaker 6: father several times, and even on the day she disappeared,
Speaker 6: he called for a pancake recipe. You know, Susan's friends
Speaker 6: always responded, well, who needs a recipe for pancakes? And
Speaker 6: you know, Josh never ever cooked, He never did anything.
Speaker 6: And he you know, his fight for custody of those
Speaker 6: boys wasn't uh out of love, it was out of power.
Speaker 6: He wanted to win. He wanted to win. He wanted
Speaker 6: to have them them and win and and beat you know,
Speaker 6: Susan Terrence, the the you know An and win this.
Speaker 6: But he was He did talk to his father a lot.
Speaker 6: And it'd be nice to know or interesting to know
Speaker 6: more about about I. I just don't think Steve was saying, well,
Speaker 6: here's how you could get rid of her. But but
Speaker 6: you know, maybe we'll find out some day. I don't
Speaker 6: know how. But one of the things I learned doing
Speaker 6: this book, Dan that I now is a is a
Speaker 6: part of everything and everything I write, everything I research,
Speaker 6: is how important family history is. You know, people like
Speaker 6: Josh are not you know, they are raised and they're
Speaker 6: raised by people who are also you know, try troubled.
Speaker 6: And when I looked at the family history of the Powells,
Speaker 6: I mean, it was really, uh it was almost inevitable.
Speaker 6: You'd think inevitable that Josh would be uh dangerously troubled.
Speaker 6: Steve Powell as a child, uh his I think he
Speaker 6: had one or two siblings, and they were completely you know,
Speaker 6: moved around and tossed around all the time between their
Speaker 6: divorced parents and their grandparents. And this was uh in
Speaker 6: the Pacific Northwest, and uh n you know, no no
Speaker 6: real security, uh and uh Steve was uh punished you know.
Speaker 6: Uh I believe you know, hit uh by his grandparents
Speaker 6: once when they found out that he had told uh
Speaker 6: other children that he'd been you know, taken away from
Speaker 6: one parent. And I guess his grand parents said You're
Speaker 6: never gonna see your mother again or something like that.
Speaker 6: And but they were, you know, secrets. Secrets are a
Speaker 6: part of the story, and they're a part of this
Speaker 6: terrible family dysfunction. And so he grew up with a
Speaker 6: lot of you know, instability. And but Steve was you know,
Speaker 6: he was raised Mormon, and he actually went on a mission,
Speaker 6: uh to South America. You know his children by that time.
Speaker 6: Steve's children never participated in that in that part of
Speaker 6: the of the Mormon you know, in your in your
Speaker 6: young years when you go on a mission. But he
Speaker 6: had and he uh married his wife, Carrie was you know,
Speaker 6: a good Mormon, and they you know, seemed to have
Speaker 6: the start of a of a kind of average life.
Speaker 6: And then we know, you know, so one thing that
Speaker 6: uh I said, Check was such a great investigator. So
Speaker 6: he drove to Spokane, uh one day, and he was
Speaker 6: able to get a copy of the divorce records between
Speaker 6: Steve Powell and his wife, which were from the early
Speaker 6: nineteen nineties. I believe it was so uh that was
Speaker 6: fascinating background for me because uh I, because their their
Speaker 6: childhood was you know, they were going through a custody battle,
Speaker 6: their children, five children, uh, Steve and his wife in
Speaker 6: the early nineties. And so Terry, his wife, is you know,
Speaker 6: of course, uh including every negative thing she can say
Speaker 6: about Steve, and and Steve is saying you know, things
Speaker 6: about her. But she also uh includes quite a bit
Speaker 6: about the children, how the children were afraid of Steve,
Speaker 6: how how much he worked to you know, make his
Speaker 6: children take sides right and wanted them to live with him.
Speaker 6: There was uh the one daughter was old enough that
Speaker 6: she could you know, get out of the house. Uh
Speaker 6: when her parents were divorcing, another daughter, uh told her
Speaker 6: mother she was afraid to s you know, spend the
Speaker 6: week in at Steve's. That her brothers you know, had
Speaker 6: stripped her naked and touched her one day against her will,
Speaker 6: and all kinds of things also in that divorce document,
Speaker 6: things about Josh's childhood pulling a knife on his mother
Speaker 6: once and threatening her. And uh, the there's another brother
Speaker 6: who you know had ha made nooses and and uh
Speaker 6: you know, weird violent drawings and uh it was and
Speaker 6: he turned s see, Steve turned to children against their mother.
Speaker 6: Ay except for uh one of the daughters, and uh
Speaker 6: you know, uh we had a joke that that that
Speaker 6: Steve's house in puelp was g Fort Powell. We called
Speaker 6: it Fort Powell because yeah, that's where he and the kids,
Speaker 6: you know, and for a while, you know, Charlie and
Speaker 6: Braden were were part of that. But somebody that I
Speaker 6: has uh interviewed over the years who is a a
Speaker 6: psychiatrist and did a lot of work uh interviewing serial
Speaker 6: killers to find out more about their childhoods. She she
Speaker 6: told me that, uh, she never met a killer or
Speaker 6: a serial killer that didn't didn't have a very disruptive
Speaker 6: childhood and was not abused themselves as children.
Speaker 5: M hmm. Let's stop for a second, just for these messages.
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Speaker 5: Now we talked about Steve. But the most dramatic thing
Speaker 5: I think, and it relates to the title of this
Speaker 5: book as well, something that Steve had told his children
Speaker 5: twenty years before regarding when people can't stay together. If
Speaker 5: you like, I could read it. But can you tell
Speaker 5: us what he essentially said?
Speaker 6: You know what did you say? You could read it?
Speaker 5: Yeah, you just said Steve had told is that sometimes
Speaker 5: people can't let go and murder a loved one.
Speaker 6: Uh huh. Isn't that just to think of a parent
Speaker 6: telling their children and I think they were teenagers. This
Speaker 6: is at the time of the divorce. I believe that
Speaker 6: he said, you know, sometimes you can't let go you.
Speaker 6: You know, I want to get even and if you
Speaker 6: if I can't have you, you know, nobody can have you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Incredible. What now we talked about you talk about the
Speaker 5: incredible effort that Chuck Cox and Judy. But Chuck especially
Speaker 5: can't let this go. So he as You're right, he's
Speaker 5: still searching for his dog. He is still investigating. He
Speaker 5: can't let this go.
Speaker 6: Kenny, Well, no, he can't. And and yet I wanna
Speaker 6: say they are you know, there are people with a
Speaker 6: strong faith and it's really easy to admire them and
Speaker 6: respect them. And they do they participate, you know, in
Speaker 6: any you know, television coverage events or local coverage. You
Speaker 6: know they are there all the time. They're there when
Speaker 6: there's anything in court. And yet you know they have
Speaker 6: they have other children. Uh, they have grandchildren, they have
Speaker 6: their church. They somehow have found uh a balance and
Speaker 6: I not an accept tents, but they they find a
Speaker 6: way to uh to go on. And I mean I
Speaker 6: I just you know, seen and witnessed and heard Chuck
Speaker 6: over the years, and he he has, you know, told
Speaker 6: me stories that well one of them was the the
Speaker 6: day after the fire, the police chief of the West
Speaker 6: Valley city where Susan had disappeared, came came to f
Speaker 6: pewallup and he and Chuck sat in the car across
Speaker 6: from where their house had been that had exploded. This
Speaker 6: is just the day after the fire. And uh, Chuck
Speaker 6: told me that, Uh, Maxwell cried and told Chuck, you
Speaker 6: know you were right, you were right you to warn us,
Speaker 6: you were right. Josh was gonna do something. But uh,
Speaker 6: I never saw I've seen I've seen Chuck, you know,
Speaker 6: tear up, particularly in the early days when when she
Speaker 6: was missing at But there's a you know, there's a
Speaker 6: real uh strength to him that he Uh I I
Speaker 6: believe that he believes that they may never know what
Speaker 6: happened to Susan, but he just kind of keeps looking.
Speaker 6: I think it's been a a few year and n
Speaker 6: years now since they've actually done a search, but they've
Speaker 6: got a couple people that kind of helped them and
Speaker 6: have done some some have continued to try to investigate
Speaker 6: some things. And and this, Uh, I think this this
Speaker 6: this trial for the wrongful death suit. Uh, there was
Speaker 6: an awful lot that that was that came out uh
Speaker 6: because of that, and I think there's some things they're
Speaker 6: still looking at. I know the FBI has never been
Speaker 6: able to really get into both Michael and and josh
Speaker 6: It's computers because the two of them were doing an
Speaker 6: awful lot of back and forth when at the time
Speaker 6: Susan disappeared and then course afterwards, and they just can't
Speaker 6: seem to crack that.
Speaker 5: Is there a reason why they can't crack those computers?
Speaker 5: Is is is there something that Mike knew or did?
Speaker 5: Is there? Cause it seems when you only hear stories
Speaker 5: of that of somebody being some sort of a computer
Speaker 5: expert or at least gaining somebody's expertise to be able
Speaker 5: to wipe out records.
Speaker 6: Well, I guess it was Josh and uh, you know
Speaker 6: he was he was I don't think of him as
Speaker 6: particularly bright, but he had you know, you don't spend
Speaker 6: his time uh with computers and apparently, I mean they've
Speaker 6: even sent the computers to the company that makes the
Speaker 6: software that they used to to block things, and they
Speaker 6: they haven't been able to, uh to crack it. So
Speaker 6: I think it was just I have the feeling it's
Speaker 6: just many, many, maybe a variety of different software programs
Speaker 6: that uh that hit it. But I'm I'm really surprised
Speaker 6: the the t FBI experts haven't been able to to
Speaker 6: find out because you know, I mean, potentially it would
Speaker 6: say where Susan is it? I I I would imagine
Speaker 6: they discussed, well, you know, if I I left her,
Speaker 6: you know, maybe the next day Josh told his brother,
Speaker 6: I left her here or we have to go here,
Speaker 6: uh to get her right. But I'm really I've always
Speaker 6: been interested in where was she for that one that
Speaker 6: first day? You know, where was that because Utah probably
Speaker 6: wasn't way out in the desert. If he then with
Speaker 6: a rental car, you know, got her to mover, uh,
Speaker 6: probably with something, it could have even been somewhere, you know,
Speaker 6: not far outside the city.
Speaker 5: You talk about too, that this Anne Bremner, she didn't
Speaker 5: buy into the idea that the prosecution couldn't prosecute this
Speaker 5: case partly because of nobody and because of other difficulties.
Speaker 5: What was her take on on that and why did
Speaker 5: she believe, essentially that they could have got a conviction.
Speaker 6: Well, she's and I one of my one of my
Speaker 6: few heroes. She's helped other families with no body cases,
Speaker 6: and in fact, I write about her quite a bit
Speaker 6: in uh so, my new book is about Kyraen Horman,
Speaker 6: who's the boy missing from his grade school in Portland, Oregon.
Speaker 6: M We just passed the ten year anniversary of that
Speaker 6: case and he hasn't been sound.
Speaker 4: Uh and.
Speaker 6: So this her work with the Cox's family happened at
Speaker 6: about the same time that Kyne disappeared. But and heels
Speaker 6: that you know, as I said, prosecutors can drag their feet. Uh.
Speaker 6: There I did find somebody who's kind of the expert
Speaker 6: in no body cases to keep that former p federal
Speaker 6: prosecutor he Ki, who keeps track that of of no
Speaker 6: body cases that are successfully prosecuted and without a body.
Speaker 6: And but Anne really really believed that, you know, she'll
Speaker 6: look at at ways to get around this and in
Speaker 6: this case, the fact that I think the thing that
Speaker 6: made The case for her was that here was an
Speaker 6: entity being in the state of Washington that was supposed
Speaker 6: to be doing a job protecting these kids. Now, in
Speaker 6: a lot of no body cases, there is no entity
Speaker 6: like that to bring along full death suit with, so
Speaker 6: you know, that doesn't that doesn't exist. But in this case,
Speaker 6: you know, somebody was supposed to be protecting those boys,
Speaker 6: and was there a chance that in fact, uh, there
Speaker 6: were errors committed and and there were and it's all
Speaker 6: it's really frightening to read the d documents that even
Speaker 6: up until even you know, the week when Josh was
Speaker 6: told you're gonna have to take a psychical sexual examine
Speaker 6: and all of that, just the week before that, the
Speaker 6: kind of glowing reviews he got from not the caseworker,
Speaker 6: not Elizabeth, but from you know, the people she was,
Speaker 6: you know, employed by a private agency. Caseworkers often are
Speaker 6: work for an agency that that do that work. But
Speaker 6: but the how the State of Washington and CPS, you know,
Speaker 6: and they had interviews with him over the you know
Speaker 6: period of time and with the k and with the
Speaker 6: kids and and you know, uh, even even as a
Speaker 6: psychologist at one point just you know, s said Josh
Speaker 6: was fine, that Josh could be Josh could be a
Speaker 6: loving parent.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Uh so they were, but they were definitely right red flags.
Speaker 5: This as well was interesting too because there was this
Speaker 5: pastor from his church, right, Tim Atkins. Yeah, so there
Speaker 5: was some plans that I don't know it was a
Speaker 5: former counseling, but they there were plans to meet with
Speaker 5: this Tim Atkins, and he would have been or tried
Speaker 5: to be an important person in this whole thing. This
Speaker 5: whole mess tell us a little bit more about his rule.
Speaker 6: So Tim Atkins was a minister of a small conservative
Speaker 6: church group. He happened to be a neighbor of Steve Powells.
Speaker 6: He you know, knew about when the Josh and the
Speaker 6: boys arrived, and I think he just you know, wanted
Speaker 6: to reach out and and help if he could would
Speaker 6: because here's a man he uh you know, I've spent
Speaker 6: a lot of time with Tim and his family, and
Speaker 6: I I think he uh was a bit naive, but
Speaker 6: but meant well and uh tried to offer you know,
Speaker 6: friendship and fellowship to Josh. I think I think once
Speaker 6: or twice Josh and the boys went to Tim's church.
Speaker 6: But you know, Josh was really suspicious of churches, and
Speaker 6: and uh, this hatred for the the Mormons, you know,
Speaker 6: court of kind of ran his his mind. But uh,
Speaker 6: you know Tim offered you know, his home, and so
Speaker 6: sometimes Josh would have his custody visits there. The boys
Speaker 6: would play and play with Tim's kids and and they'd
Speaker 6: have a meal, you know together, and uh, I think
Speaker 6: Tim gave him a Bible. He you know, prayed with Josh,
Speaker 6: or wanted to pray with Josh, or made Josh pray
Speaker 6: with him, you know. Uh, definitely meant well. And on
Speaker 6: the Sunday that the house exploded, Uh, I'm trying to
Speaker 6: remember if Tim uh how he exactly got the word.
Speaker 6: Of course it was on television here on radio, but
Speaker 6: he went across the street to Steve's house and uh
Speaker 6: one of the Josh's sister, Elina, was there, uh alone,
Speaker 6: I think, and sat at sat at the table with her,
Speaker 6: and she'd gotten one of the good bye texts from
Speaker 6: j from Josh and and uh, so I I know
Speaker 6: he was, you know, reaching out to the family. Then
Speaker 6: I think, I think so many people underestimated Josh. So
Speaker 6: many I think, starting with the West Ely City Police
Speaker 6: and then you know, most of the people who cross
Speaker 6: paths with him, and here in Washington State, they just
Speaker 6: underestimated what he was capable of.
Speaker 5: You write about a person named Alina or Elena and
Speaker 5: her strange support of her brother and her father and
Speaker 5: the things that she went and did in order to
Speaker 5: try to rehabilitate their reputations. I guess through a website
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about her feelings about all
Speaker 5: of this and her allegiances.
Speaker 6: Well, Elena was Josh's younger sister and you know, in
Speaker 6: her in her twenties. Though when when all of this occurred,
Speaker 6: and we said some time with her, she wouldn't go
Speaker 6: on the record. I she she since in the last
Speaker 6: years she's given uh a few interviews. But she was
Speaker 6: the younger sister who you know is mentioned of the
Speaker 6: divorce documents that said she didn't feel safe, you know,
Speaker 6: staying at her father's house. She didn't wanna shower while
Speaker 6: she was staying at her father's house. And she was
Speaker 6: maybe ten years old, and but by the time she
Speaker 6: was uh, you know, grown. She had also been brainwashed
Speaker 6: by Steve Powell. And I don't think you know, I'm
Speaker 6: not using that term lightly. He brainwashed those kids, uh,
Speaker 6: and it was kind of like, you know, them against
Speaker 6: the world, Fort Powell against the world. So she was
Speaker 6: living there, and you know, Josh took every advantage of
Speaker 6: or he could. He just didn't know how to be
Speaker 6: a father take care of his kids. So uh when
Speaker 6: he and the boys, you know, moved back after Susan disappeared,
Speaker 6: she would, you know, watch the children. And I think
Speaker 6: Josh Peter a little bit t to do that. Most
Speaker 6: of these people are never working. Also, Uh, they just
Speaker 6: live at their father's house. And she uh was very
Speaker 6: defensive of Josh and even you know, it caused a
Speaker 6: split between her and her older sister, who was you know,
Speaker 6: the normal healthy one that was uh living in Utah
Speaker 6: with her family. Uh uh Alena, you know, uh just
Speaker 6: uh shows sides and uh. So one of the things
Speaker 6: was this website that there were a couple of websites. Uh.
Speaker 6: Josh wanted to start one soon after Susan disappeared, and
Speaker 6: actually sat on a sofa at her friend's house in
Speaker 6: Utah to to to try to build one. And uh
Speaker 6: then he of course moved back to Puyallup and the
Speaker 6: website very quickly, very quickly became not about who Susan
Speaker 6: is or was or her disappearance. It became about Josh
Speaker 6: and Steve's theories about what happened to Susan. And there
Speaker 6: was a a man in Utah who disappeared, Uh, I
Speaker 6: believe it's just a few weeks before Susan, and they
Speaker 6: go hombed on the vat and decided that she'd run
Speaker 6: away with his cry and he he's never been found.
Speaker 6: But you know that's not Susan. They're just you know,
Speaker 6: no chance. And but they they would, they would, you know,
Speaker 6: uh try to uh promote these theories that she'd run
Speaker 6: off and left her children and that ever, every theory
Speaker 6: they could think of that Susan, to besmirch Susan and
Speaker 6: her reputation, to say she's not she's not the woman
Speaker 6: you thought, she's not the mother you thought, you know,
Speaker 6: and uh and l Alena participated in that and w
Speaker 6: and then later she started her own website, I think,
Speaker 6: and put up a bunch of old family videos that
Speaker 6: she thought, oh I know what they were. She they
Speaker 6: showed that Susan used to be uh friendly with Steve
Speaker 6: and right, so to try to uh dismiss that argument
Speaker 6: that Susan was always suspicious of Steve that that's why
Speaker 6: she and Josh moved to Utah was to get away
Speaker 6: from Steve. Well, here's a family photo of s Uh
Speaker 6: Susan smiling with Steve in his presence, And so doesn't
Speaker 6: that prove Susan isn't who we thought she was And
Speaker 6: just you know, it'd gotten nasty, It really did.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely, it's amazing to so much of the vivid
Speaker 5: of almost cinematic scenes in this book. The blue casket,
Speaker 5: the one casket for the two boys, Charlie and Braden,
Speaker 5: the two thousand mourners at the funeral, people from coming
Speaker 5: from out of state to come, strangers mostly attending this
Speaker 5: to come. This resonating with so many people throughout the
Speaker 5: America un still and so many people throughout the world.
Speaker 5: The searches on foot, horseback, air, water, underwater, exhaustive searches,
Speaker 5: many searches, searches of property. This case has captivated the
Speaker 5: imagination of people and it won't let go. People messaged
Speaker 5: me said that they were obsessed with this case. There's
Speaker 5: so many responses from this.
Speaker 6: Well, I think it is. You know, with every there's
Speaker 6: not always a mystery with every crime. I mean, there
Speaker 6: are always questions to be answered, you know, why did
Speaker 6: this happen? And often the crime is well, like I said,
Speaker 6: Christie used to say, the crime is the end of
Speaker 6: the story, and really there's so much that comes before,
Speaker 6: and you know, who are these people? Why did this happen?
Speaker 6: I always like to say it's important to know in
Speaker 6: what community did this crime happen? That tells you a
Speaker 6: lot about the people. But in this case, the crime
Speaker 6: is not the end of the story, and there's there
Speaker 6: are several mysteries still a part of this. And I think, like,
Speaker 6: like we mentioned the John Benney case, I think it's
Speaker 6: those cases that forever haunt us, like Natalie who's never
Speaker 6: been found and who killed John? Bunny Ramsay, where's Susan Powell?
Speaker 6: You know, those kinds of those kinds of mysteries that uh,
Speaker 6: you know go go unsolved. Uh I I think I
Speaker 6: think it's very intriguing. I think, especially with this case,
Speaker 6: we look, we learn a little bit more. Uh you know,
Speaker 6: every once in a while, there's uh uh you know,
Speaker 6: I don't I don't believe in the word closure. I
Speaker 6: just don't think, oh, you know, there's no one day
Speaker 6: you know, when they when they won the jury award,
Speaker 6: you know, several weeks ago. I don't think the Coxes said,
Speaker 6: wh boy, that's over with, you know, or at least
Speaker 6: that's done. No, it's it's not like that. And even
Speaker 6: if Josh had been arrested or you know, it just that.
Speaker 6: I I don't think you wake up in one day
Speaker 6: and then there's there's closure. But I think you learn
Speaker 6: to live with a tragedy. And I think I think
Speaker 6: the lucky ones find some way to learn to live
Speaker 6: with it and and and then there are people that
Speaker 6: can't or or don't don't learn that. But but it's still,
Speaker 6: you know, it's still you know, quite a mystery. And
Speaker 6: I know everybody would like to know where Susan.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's incredible to the the bedroom that the cox
Speaker 5: is built for to have to house the two boys.
Speaker 5: And they, like they said, uh, they were like little animals.
Speaker 5: They had to be you know, socialized basically they get
Speaker 5: along and be able to live in this home. Ye
Speaker 5: and uh, as we mentioned before, there was the dark
Speaker 5: circles under their eyes. They had lost a lot of
Speaker 5: weight just before the night before. They had mentioned before
Speaker 5: they didn't want to go with their daddy before, but
Speaker 5: especially were hesitant and mentioned Brayden mentioned, I don't want
Speaker 5: to see daddy, I want to stay here. So they
Speaker 5: were very adamant that day, so so much heartbreaking. Again,
Speaker 5: no one could know, no one could predict, no one
Speaker 5: could prevent what happened. And then despite Chuck Cox and
Speaker 5: Judy their fears that this, especially once he had that
Speaker 5: psycho sexual evaluation and knew that he wasn't going to
Speaker 5: get custody of the kids, that he was to be feared,
Speaker 5: and certainly that horror came true. Just stay incredibly, I think,
Speaker 5: you know, I think a lot of this.
Speaker 6: I think it's human nature to second guess yourself and
Speaker 6: to let something like the fact that the boys bagged
Speaker 6: not to go that day. I I mean, I would
Speaker 6: never be able to forget that. But yeah, you know,
Speaker 6: the the Coxes are, you know, they've just resolved to,
Speaker 6: you know, focus on what what they can do, not
Speaker 6: anything they can change. They can't change now, and what
Speaker 6: you know, I mean that happens all the time with children.
Speaker 6: You know, I don't and it's not gonna be you
Speaker 6: don't know, You're they're going to their death, you know,
Speaker 6: I know. Elizabeth Griffin Hall, a social worker d a
Speaker 6: caseworker told me, I mean she drove them to their death.
Speaker 6: And uh, you know, uh, but the Coxes seem to
Speaker 6: be able to focus on, you know, what what can
Speaker 6: they do? Now? What can they do? And and uh
Speaker 6: and I really wanna make sure I add something about
Speaker 6: what this means for other states. I and even before
Speaker 6: the the the Wrongful Death UH reward award, some time
Speaker 6: after Charlie Braden's death, a a state legislator here is
Speaker 6: proposed a law that would say that if you're even
Speaker 6: a person of interest in your spouse's death or disappearance,
Speaker 6: that you r you can't have custody of your children.
Speaker 6: That that didn't go anywhere, and I I never found
Speaker 6: out why that didn't really go anywhere in the legislator legislature.
Speaker 6: Maybe maybe uh maybe it's too broad, right, but I
Speaker 6: think that it's something for states to uh pay attention to.
Speaker 6: And especially after this you know, multi million dollar uh
Speaker 6: wrongful death UH suit that who what how do you
Speaker 6: handle custody issues and custodial visits when there's been a
Speaker 6: crime committed? And you know, I believe that with Josh,
Speaker 6: he should have his only custody visits should have been
Speaker 6: you know, in a in an environment where there was
Speaker 6: security at least and some kind of controlled environment. But
Speaker 6: you know, it wasn't in the office building where a
Speaker 6: number of other parents had their visits, where there was
Speaker 6: staff everything. They didn't you know, they were talked into
Speaker 6: allowing him to be at the pastor's home and then
Speaker 6: at this rental house that maybe its States were stricter
Speaker 6: about where do custody visits, where can they take place?
Speaker 6: And how do we really protect children from our worst
Speaker 6: possible the worst possible scenario. I I really think that's
Speaker 6: uh something that could be you know, something that could
Speaker 6: be done that that could come out of all of
Speaker 6: this and for states to pay, you know, pay a
Speaker 6: new attention to people who are having custody visits, who
Speaker 6: are under suspicion they might be innocent, but they haven't
Speaker 6: been cleared. And how do you create a secure environment
Speaker 6: during those custody visits if there's you know, they're still
Speaker 6: allowed to see their children.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I think a combination of the of
Speaker 5: the two things, the case itself and the details, but
Speaker 5: also even more importantly, this lawsuit will be somewhat of
Speaker 5: a deterrent. I think if if other states and and
Speaker 5: uh jurisdictions realize that they may be you'll have to
Speaker 5: up an incredible decision, financial decision like this is thirty
Speaker 5: something million dollars. So hopefully, hopefully they we'll learn from this,
Speaker 5: that person. And because we have seen people take out
Speaker 5: their frustrations and their their desperation and kill their children.
Speaker 5: So this is not the first time at all.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it is not unusual. You know, it's
Speaker 6: familial homicide when person kills her spouse and themselves and
Speaker 6: their children, their whole family, and it's just I think
Speaker 6: it's one of the you know, most tragic sorts of murders,
Speaker 6: and you know, to take to kill your children, you know.
Speaker 6: But you know, the Conxes knew that, you know, they
Speaker 6: they're the only ones who didn't underestimate Josh. They never
Speaker 6: did for a minute. They always thought he was capable
Speaker 6: of the worst. And and you know, really nobody believed them.
Speaker 6: S maybe you know, and Bremner and a few people,
Speaker 6: but uh, you know, he was just you know, h
Speaker 6: h his his anger at them at the church, at
Speaker 6: you know, at Susan you know, and you just think,
Speaker 6: you know, when I gave talks on this book and
Speaker 6: I still do. But when I'd give a talk at
Speaker 6: a at a library in Seattle, and and you know,
Speaker 6: I sort of uh adopted the uh you know, the
Speaker 6: New York City transit systems, saying it, if you see something,
Speaker 6: say something, you know, because Susan's friends knew that Josh
Speaker 6: was you know, this was a domestic dispute. This is
Speaker 6: domestic violence, yea. It it was a case of domestic violence.
Speaker 6: And they knew that he was treating her badly, and
Speaker 6: they knew that she was uh afraid something would happen
Speaker 6: because she wrote, you know, she wrote a handwritten will
Speaker 6: that she put in in her safety deposit box saying,
Speaker 6: if anything happens to me, you know, look at Josh,
Speaker 6: it wasn't an accident. If anything happens to me, it
Speaker 6: wasn't an accident. Then she did a video, you know,
Speaker 6: diary of ever all their belongings. So and she says
Speaker 6: on the front of on the beginning of that, you know,
Speaker 6: I don't know what's gonna happen, but I'm documenting her
Speaker 6: life right now. And uh so, I I wish. The
Speaker 6: other thing I wish is that people had, you know,
Speaker 6: somebody had convinced her to leave if one of her
Speaker 6: sisters really said, Susan, I'm gonna I'll drive down there
Speaker 6: right now and get you in the boys. But for
Speaker 6: many reasons, uh, she didn't. She didn't leave Josh because
Speaker 6: he'd well, he threatened her, he told her, you know,
Speaker 6: you'll never see the boys.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: And but you know, women used to come up to
Speaker 6: me and say, you know, if I told my daughter
Speaker 6: to you know, get out, to to leave her husband, uh,
Speaker 6: she'd never talked to me again, you know. And these
Speaker 6: were parents who said, you know, they felt their children
Speaker 6: were in uh, you know, potential domestic violent situations. So
Speaker 6: saying if you see something, say something isn't always n
Speaker 6: you know, sometimes you're you're your children aren't gonna wanna
Speaker 6: hear that. But yeah, but there's you know, so many
Speaker 6: angles to this story and the the custody of situation
Speaker 6: and the domestic violent situation, and uh, it just c
Speaker 6: kind of goes on and on.
Speaker 5: It's very interesting that this is m many times, uh,
Speaker 5: especially recently, that there are people that are rather kill
Speaker 5: than divorce just because somehow that would be harmful to
Speaker 5: their religious reputation or or they would look unfavorable in
Speaker 5: their own with other members of the church. So I
Speaker 5: think it's just again incredible that somebody would consider murder
Speaker 5: rather than divorce, and in this particular case, rather than
Speaker 5: not have custody of their children, full coustody of their children,
Speaker 5: not just visitations, they decided to slaughter their children in
Speaker 5: such a dramatic way. I want to thank you so much.
Speaker 6: I think often it's getting even too and it's revenge.
Speaker 6: I read these cases about, you know, when couple split
Speaker 6: and the dad kills himself and the kids because it's
Speaker 6: revenge to his wife.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, yeah, I want to thank thank you so much
Speaker 5: for coming on and talking about if I can have
Speaker 5: you the update Susan Powell he mysterious disappearance and the
Speaker 5: murder of her children. Thank you so much, Rebecca Morris.
Speaker 5: For those that might want to check this out, do
Speaker 5: you have a website and tell us how they might
Speaker 5: take a look at this book?
Speaker 1: Sure?
Speaker 6: My website is Rebecca T. Morris, M O R R
Speaker 6: I S dot com. Rebecca T. Morris dot com is
Speaker 6: the website. I'd love to pep hear from people. There's
Speaker 6: a way to contact me through that. I'm also on
Speaker 6: Facebook Rebecca Morris and the book If I can't have you.
Speaker 6: Is it's now, it's been paperback for years. It was
Speaker 6: originally hardcover. It's a paperback, it's an audiobook, it's an
Speaker 6: e book, and all the usual places which are kind
Speaker 6: of narrowed right now, but stores closed, but it's always
Speaker 6: there of course on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles and other
Speaker 6: sites like that. And as you mentioned before, and the
Speaker 6: subject of a twenty twenty program this Friday. Unless you
Speaker 6: know less, we're reporting, you know, civil unrest in the
Speaker 6: United States after the election. Who knows. It could get bumped,
Speaker 6: but but it'll air so that everybody can watch. Look
Speaker 6: at the twenty twenty website too, or or my website
Speaker 6: for information about the show.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Great, Thank you so much, Rebecca Morris. It's been
Speaker 5: an absolute pleasure. If I can't have you, thank you
Speaker 5: so much. You have a great evening.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 5: Good night,