Speaker 1: Friend right absolutely, James Fox, Hi, James, Hey, good to
see you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much for letting me come here. And
the second time I've been here in studio. Last time,
I don't know if you remember, but we had some
type of technical issues. I think I got all that
stuff behind me.
Speaker 3: I think it's the other than CNN or National Geographic
Filming in here. You're the only other person that I've
ever done on camera inside my magical zone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is magical. I just this place is
just amazing undisclosed location.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But anyway, since we just said started out like that,
I think I'm going to just run a clip right
here of this place that it just took just I
don't know, maybe what ten minutes ago.
Speaker 4: So here we go.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna run this clock all right here, I am
in the studio with James Fox.
Speaker 4: We're going to see where it all happens.
Speaker 3: And this light isn't on right here, because I wanted
to show you this is a lovely time I had
in Texas on a lake with how put Off. Oh.
This was during production of the first documentary, well, actually
my second documentary, Out of the Blue. That's Tim colemand
Bors Zooba back in the nineties. That's one of my
parents is on Joe Rogan. This is just for fun.
Yeah yeah. This is my father who was a ah
cool a journalist. This is him Proba when we lived
in New York working for Cards the magazine back in
the sixties. Wow, what a great picture. Love leaving the
trips light on here. This is the letter I got
from Steven Spielberg's Larry Kinge on my movie back in
two thousand and nine. That's really cool. That's my dad
and I on a each together. Awesome goofing off. And
this is where you edit. This is where I edit.
I've seen there's all my hard drive. Those are solid state,
yeah big, about twenty terabytes of solid state. Yeah wow.
This normally that disc is normally I've seen what happened.
It's just kind of funny, you know, it's just kind
of it's a little silly, but it's fun all right. Anyway, Well,
thank you. And this is uh the situation room over here.
That's the situation exactly.
Speaker 4: Well here we are, so yeah, thanks again.
Speaker 2: And I wanted to talk to you about your movie,
but other things too, because it's quite a bit going on.
Speaker 4: Lots of changes a lot has.
Speaker 3: How to keep up with it? I need Yeah, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So how's your movie doing?
Speaker 3: Doing well? It's only been out three weeks. It was
at the top of the charts on docks. I think
it's number two on Apple and numbers three or something
on Amazon. It gone back and forth. You know. We
have more promotions coming to the end of the month.
We got more coming to February. But it's the most
independent released film that I've ever done, like we don't have. Normally,
you produce a documentary and you get completion funds and
then you get a budget, you sign with a distributor
or somebody buys the movie, like I've done with all
my previous films, almost all of them. But in this case,
we don't even have a distributor. We have somebody more
seen as an aggregator. So it's somebody that can take
the film and just literally put it on the various
platforms like Amazon and Apple and all the other Google
Play and Vendango and YadA ya YadA, and then and
then we come up with all the pr money that
you need to pay for the trailer and all that stuff.
So it's the most independent production that we've ever done,
so it's a very grassroots effort.
Speaker 4: That's great.
Speaker 3: Now I got it.
Speaker 2: I told you at dinner earlier that I've watched it
three times and I love it. It's I used to say,
out of the Blue, and I know you have your
own you know, worst critic on your films. Out of
the Blue, I used to say, long before I ever
met you the first time. You know, I've told people
that that was my absolute favorite film is out of
the Blue. And now I just I just love this one.
I mean, I rarely watch anything more than once, and
I watch that three times, and I just love the
way you transition things so smoothly. It shows a maturity
or something something's changed in your filmmaking that this was
just a real smooth.
Speaker 3: I like pacting, you know, as you can see on
the board behind me, I generally do like very broad
strokes when I set out to I'm like winging it
practically to make a production, and I'm capturing things as
I'm learning them, as things are unfolding. I don't like,
like a lot of reality TV shows feel very stage
because they are everything that's happening, and my productions are happening.
They're unfolding as they unfold, including the last interview that
I got, the last possible second with Richard Greeb. He
contacted me that I had mispronounced his name, so I said,
I propose that, well, Richard Gieve, he's the Uh. We
were actually right over here in the edit studio, and
it was it was a really key bit of testimony
on the cow on the nineteen ninety Calvine photograph because
the photographers and witnesses had vanished for twenty four years.
The print had disappeared, and then, thank god to the
hard work and dedication of David Clark and others, the
photograph was found. Craig Lindsay, the former ARIF press officer,
managed to get it on camera. Interview with him. Then
we got and then I got Nick Pope to go
on camera, Clark to go on camera, the guy that
is in the analysis working the photograph going to camera.
But we don't know what happened to the witnesses, right,
So yeah, the last possible minute, we're over here editing away.
It was a bunch of people in the room and
I've been contacting Richard. He was over and over and
over and then you know, he kind of went dark
and I thought maybe I pushed too hard. Yeah, and
he slipped between the cracks like a bar of soap
in the bathtub or something. And and then he called
and so that whole interview was done just completely unprepared.
Grab my cell phone, quick, gab your cell phone, film
me talking to my cell phone, and you know, yeah,
so it was all It all happened like that. I mean,
even Kirk McConnell, the Senate Armed Service Committee Chief Chief
of staffer, flew up at the last minute, you know,
from Washington, d C. And actually we did. We actually
filmed in here. Wow, for that interview.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was great having him on, even though it
was just audio. But uh, you know, I mean it
was he I'm glad you had like subtitles because he
was a little difficult to understand.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, I mean, uh yeah, that was really great.
Speaker 2: But so the story is those those guys were I mean,
it's another it's hard to even say this men in
black type of situation.
Speaker 3: You know. When he was first telling me the story,
I was like, well, hang on a second, so this
is what you heard. He goes, No, he goes. I
was standing outside having a cigarette break with my coworkers,
the guys. The witness said that took the photograph. We
were standing outside and this bar rolls up. You saw this?
He yes, I swear to my great great great green. Yeah,
it's one of my favorite lines in the movie. He said.
I work with him in the kitchen. I made poached eggs.
They made those stuns and you know, buddy Guessa pair
after thirty four years. Yeah, and I had Patty's Zubov.
She's been a copy editor with me for a while.
She's very, very good at talking eyes and crossed the
tase and she contacts me and she's like, James, uh,
why did you leave that poached eggs and toast in?
I don't what's what's how's it relevant that story? I
looked at her, I was talking to her. I said, Patty,
you don't find that really funny, you know, and it's
kind of a personal thing. And she's like, yeah, yeah,
it is funny. Yeah, a good thing you left to do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was funny. I did notice that.
But yeah, no, that's great.
Speaker 3: And you can't not notice that scene in the movie. Yeah,
that's a right, I mean, it's a real moment. You know,
you only get a handful of those moments in the film,
and it's like it's it's relevant, it's personal, it's it's humanizing,
you know.
Speaker 2: And you know, I thought I thought there was a
couple of mic drops, I mean more than a couple,
and one of them I really really liked hearing from
was Kirk McConnell. I want to say, And can you
explain a little bit about him? You know what, he
was an intelligence officer.
Speaker 3: Thirty seven years on the hill. He was in multiple
different clearances or security clearances, and he started in an
official capacity investigating UFOs on the Hill. But he'd been
up there for a long time Senate Armed Service Committee
in a ficial capacity u IT b uf vos from
twenty seventeen since the New York Times article published the
secret Pedagon UFO up until twenty twenty four. And I
guess he was frustrated from the excessive secrecy and lack
of transparency that was going on, particularly with Sean Kirkpatrick,
former head of Arrow and len Val Logan was also
part of the UAP task Force who's in the film
Called me up. One day I was filming in DC.
One of the last pickup film projects I was doing.
He goes, hey, I got a guy I think, I
think he's willing to come forward, and turned out to
be Kirk and we couldn't make it work. While I
was there with the camera crew in DZ long story short,
he's like, hey, I'll fly up from d C and
I'll come meet you. And it was like one of
the last you know, I think maybe I got Richard
Greeve right after that, but that was the last couple
of interviews that I got squeezed them into the movie. Yeah,
and they made a colossal difference.
Speaker 4: It did.
Speaker 2: I mean, some of the things he's saying, it's like, what.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you know one of the I kind of
kicked myself because.
Speaker 5: He he got to, according to him, sit in in
a skiff with somewhere between eight and twelve first hand witnesses.
Speaker 3: Now, everyone criticizes David Grush because he's not a first
hand witness. These were first hand witnesses with high level credentials,
really credible, you know, current officials testifying in a skiff
that yeah, this sub's real. And I was asking him
on a Reddit thing that we did. The Reddit community
got together as woman Andre helped put it together. Andrea,
all the various Reddit communities got together to push for
government transparency and they featured Len val Logan, myself, and
Kirk McConnell, a former staff member of the Senate Art
Service Committee. And I suddenly thought in the middle of it,
and it was talking about a moment. I said, can
you put us in that room? What it was like
when you were sitting in a skiff with the senators
with a firsthand witness. What did it feel like? What
were the expressions on the senator's faces? What did you
feel like? And it's a I highly recommend anybody watching
this go to my Twitter now x and watch it's
It's probably somewhat buried at this point we've had a
lot of activity, but I could be found at James C.
Fox and I put a two minute segment up there,
and it's one of the most powerful, one of the
most powerful moments for me in my thirty years, not
the most, but certainly the top five of my thirty
years investigating this stuff, because it really puts you in
the room with the first hand witness and senators and stuff,
and the intensity of it in the atmosphere and the
aftermath trying to process it all. Yeah, you know, it's
pretty intense stuff.
Speaker 2: I mean, can you imagine being in that situation and
hearing what these people are hearing, and then you have
to keep it to yourself, I mean that or your
your spouse. So whatever it is, you know, you have
to just be tight about It must be so difficult.
Speaker 3: Nobody can really relate to it, because I remember I
had a similar thing from the outside. He was experiencing
that on the inside. But when I was investigating, you know,
a moment of contact when I did the film Moment
of Contact, and I was investigating this alleged uffo crash
that happened in nineteen ninety six in Virginia, Brazil. Every
time I would come back from Brazil, like I would,
I was just like it was called PTSD, but it
was profoundly moved by what I was learning. And I
would come home and a couple of times I started
talking about it to my friends. You know, I would
go to an event at my son's soccer whatever. I'm
talking to fellow parents and oh my gosh, you know,
how'd you guys back from Brazil? And I start talking
a little bit, and I could see them looking at
me like I was absolutely nuts, and so I was like, okay,
we all have to put a note to self, don't
talk about this particular case at all. Yeah, wait until
the movie comes out, and then trying to process it myself,
coming to terms of it, because it's such a game changer.
Speaker 2: It changes everything, right, and speaking of Brazil, you're going
to be heading down there in a few days. I
don't know if you can talk about that, but also
if you can talk about anything else as far as
that case goes, the differences that well, you know, I know,
when anyone puts out a movie, all of a sudden
they're contacted by people that are involved. All these new
leads come up, you know, and then you feel like,
oh my god, there should be a part two. A
lot of times you hear about that in books and movies.
So anything breaking or new, and as far as Brazil.
Speaker 3: Goes, so we have Yeah, I'm going it's been on
my list to go back. I mean, I've I've had
a number of leads and it's so funny, like Geords
Napp told me, don't read the comments, you know, on
any of the appearances that you do, And.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes you can't help not bad advice though.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, for the most part, people are pretty enthusiastic
and supportive, and that's great. You know, all one can
do in the end of the days is try. And
you know, there were a couple of comments people made about, oh,
you know, James said there was ufol there was footage
of the Virginia. Yeah, just because I said I think
it exists. In fact, I'm quite sure that it does
exist because I talked to several doctors that have seen
it that I chase down. Uh, you know, it's very,
very difficult. It's a very difficult situation that the fear
factor is is very real in Brazil. I mean it's
it's it's it's spooky poking around. You know, they're threatening
their own people. So you can imagine a foreigner like
me out there poking around trying to reveal something they
desperately trying to keep secret. It's real, and it's it's
a little it's a little scary, and I'm aware of that.
And but that piece of footage, particularly if we got
the providence, would be a massive, unprecedented, game changing event
of the world. Yes, I think so, I mean, I
me're not going to believe it no matter what.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, that's right, but if that could be.
Speaker 2: But the footage supposedly is in the hospital of the
being correct.
Speaker 3: Well, there's multiple different yes, but one in particular, yes, yeah,
Humanitas Hospital. I mean the doctors in nineteen ninety six,
there were you know, comfortable they owned cameras, right, you know, yeah, yeah,
some of the other service people like you know, the
police department and the fire department they had cameras, right,
and then the of course the military had cameras. We've
located a couple of things and we'll see what happens.
But there's another testimony that we're going after as well.
It's not just that. And we've had some developments on
this end, and I don't want to go in too
much detail, but there was a with help with the Gentleman,
we filed a foyer request so long ago that i'd
actually forgotten about. Yeah, it was over two years ago.
Speaker 4: I've heard her people forgetting about him. All of a sudden.
Speaker 3: They showed up yesterday and it's quite telling.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's quite I read it, but I'm betting it
to myself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. It's going to be featured in the
in the director's cut of the new film, and I
talk about a little bit, but essentially from all the
people that I've had a look at it say to me,
this is basically, you know, if there was none of
there there, they would have said, there's no there there.
They said, we can't release this because of you know,
national security, blah blah blah. You know. Yeah, so it's
like it basically implying that if we did release this
information to you, and I was asking for the flight
logs coming into a specific spot with specific dates, and
they won't release those flight logs. Yeah, I've been writing
now in the CIA.
Speaker 4: It's pretty awesome.
Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty crazy.
Speaker 4: It's kind of chilling to read.
Speaker 3: It's kind of chilling. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: So I want to just shift gears to talk more
about bits and parts of the film, which I think
is great. But since you've been doing this, you know,
how many films in total about UFOs do we have out.
Speaker 3: That I've done? Yes, so I did. So I never
know quite how to answer that question, because I did
UFOs fifty Years in Denial in the mid nine and
I finished it around ninety eight, I would guess, And
then I started on out of the Blue in ninety
nine two thousand, and then sold that to I sold.
People always ask me, like, when do you know a
documentary's done it. It's usually like you're out of money,
you're you're collapsing, you're exhausted. I mean, and I remember
one of my partner's boards was in a fetal position,
crying his wife screaming that you're killing my husband. And
I've been there too, and you know, but it wasn't
quite it wasn't quite where I wanted it to be.
But we were done. Then we were out of gas,
we were out of money, we're out of everything. Just
squeeze dry. And so then so then we sold that
to NBC Universal to decide. Yeah, the sci Fi aired
it because I sold fifty Years of Denial to Discovery
Communications and then aired on the Learning Channel. And then
I got a letter three years later because they bought
like a three year broadcast option. Everything's changed since then,
but a three year broadcast option and that's it. So
it goes to one entity, they do their thing with
it for three years, and then I own it again. Yea.
Nowadays you can put it on all these multiple platforms
and it can go to t Bobs transactional download you
can rent, and then it goes to these other things
where you have ads and there's lots of just so
many more options nowadays. But then I got the rights
back and I was like, you know, this film is
never quite what I wanted it to be. I'm gonna
revisit and I'm going to revamp Out of the Blue,
which I spent I think two and a half years
doing wonderful and in the process of that, I got
that director's cut Out of the Blue done. So I
did two versions of Out of the Blue, and then
I did that National Press Club event with Leslie Kane
in two thousand and seven, and I made a two
hour special onto that and that's called I Know What
I Saw. I think I was thirty nine or forty
when I sold that, and then I was like, I
just I need a break from UFOs. I stepped back.
I did. I did a cool little film in the
E p OL's Bill called Pretty Slick. I needed a break.
I just I really remember the break, and in the
back of my mind, I was like, I've tried and
I've kind of failed on every time I try to
do the ultimate feature length documentary film on the topic
of UFOs. And so when I turned forty three, I said,
I'm gonna give it one more crack and that's uh.
And that's when I did the phenomenon.
Speaker 2: It took me eight years, and that was a tough
one to get through. I remember when it was called
seven oh one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had lots of yes, a lot.
Speaker 2: Of different yeah, but that was a tough one all
the way through, right right, I feel like it was
a yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean, but it was an amazing film.
Speaker 3: And when I finished that one, I was, I remember,
I was, I was, I was staying up. We had
a little loft above my office, like a stair like
like literally a steep staircase to go up to a
loft kind of like just loft here. But and uh,
and I had a complete I'd never had one before.
I had a complete and utter meltdown. I mean, basically,
I won't pour your audio into the details of getting
the film complete was an absolute nightmare. Like just some
reason like as closer you get to the finishing line,
it becomes exponentially more difficult. And then there were all
sorts of other factors that were coming into play. And
then I got the film done and then because of
another whole series of issues, I was getting contacted by
a distributor because we're we're getting threatened to sue because
we had done a deal with Netflix. But then the
next Flix deal fell through because it was during the
you know, the height of like you know, the pandemic
had hit, and all the previous deals that we had
fell through because we were gonna have a theatrical distribution,
and all these things happened. So suddenly, like all these
things fell through and under the cloud of COVID and
stakes were made. And then basically I remember my distributor going,
you know, we might have to just shelve this movie
because it's kind of a liability. Right now. This guy
is saying he's going to sue unless he gets this.
Netflix is pissed off, and you guys are going after Discovery,
and oh my god, I just like I just lost it, thinking,
like I did my dream movie. It's the movie that
I've always set out to do, that I spent twenty
five thirty whatever twenty five years to accomplish, and it's
probably not going to see the light of day, or
it could not see the light of day, and I
just hit my breaking point, you know. And and on
top of that, I had gone back and forth to
Brazil over a twelve year period investigating this let's crash
case that happened in ninety six, and I and I
ended up cutting all that out of the phenomenon, right,
So anyway at the phenomena, Yeah, sorry, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: I remember you. You're saying you had to cut it
out to make it standalone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did that. And then and then I set
my sights on on I'm rambling, but I set my
sights on that case and made a whole movie on
a moment of contact. Yeah. And then now I naturally, okay,
I learned that the US was involved in the possible
retrieval of some of those materials bodies from Virginia in
nineteen ninety six because one of the Brazilian authority, he
is the flight control officer radar that monitors all the
incoming flights in a particular region came clean, came forward
on a podcast on camera, So like, yeah, I watched
the flight come in and they didn't have Brazilian government
authorization to land, and I was like USAF. He kept saying, USAF,
it's the United States Air Force. This plane came in
on the twentieth of I think he said it was
the twentieth of January nineteen ninety six. And then and
then this higher up came in the room and said,
let the plane land. So now I've got the connection
with the United States. I'd heard it rumor, but now
I had a pretty solid, pretty solid information that the
US was involved. And so naturally, going into the program,
I was probably five months. After five months, I would
have never guessed, five months after the release a moment
of contact that a high level intelligence officer David Crush
would testify under oath to a bipartisan group of lawmakers
that there's a crash reteoval program biologics. I would have
never seen that one coming because I really feel like,
in some respects moment of contact might have been a
little head of its time. Maybe people were quite ready
for it. Yeah, you know. And so so naturally that
opened the door for me investigating the program, right because
I was gonna I wanted to go to Washington, DC
and find out what we could uncover about this so
called craft fuel program, and David Grusha opened the door
for me. So it was it was just like divine intervenal.
I mean, it was just it was a miracle. Yeah,
it happened. I remember when I was watching it live.
I was sitting right over here and the other on
the other side of the barn, and my son was
trying to get me to come outside and play with him.
And it was one of the only times I ever
looked at him and I just said not now. And
I had. I had tears just streaming down my face
as I was all this weight off my shoulders because
being laughed at and ridly cooled, and I thought, this
is coming out. Wow. Yeah, I can't believe this moment
is happening. I never thought I'd live to see it
of me neither.
Speaker 4: That was kind of a shock, the whole thing going
through that. So, how let's talk a little bit about you.
Speaker 3: So how many dogs? How many dogs? Is that? That's
like six and a half?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, just like I didn't get the number?
Speaker 2: Yeah you remember, no, no know what you know out
of the blue?
Speaker 3: Is that two versus? It's definitely two versis Yeah? Does
that really counted? Is the half of it? What is? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Anyway, but your yourself, I guess I want to ask you,
how has this this road you have taken affected your
you know, your development in your your life these days.
I mean for myself, I can talk real quickly that
since I've started to look into this, you know, in
this whole phenomenon, I think it's a it's been a
really it's been a gift to me in many many ways.
But it also you know, it's also we get these
you know, situations where you know, people ridicule you know,
they think this is you're crazy for looking into this.
I I think I lost a really h good, really
good job that I had because of looking into this topic.
But I mean it all worked out great. I'm glad
it worked out that way. I much rather work for
myself anyway. But I mean, how has this affected you
and changed your life going down this road that you've
gone down?
Speaker 3: You know, I get online criticism, you know now, and
it's about you know, being called a grifter and all
these things, and not a lot of it, but some
of it, you know, and you know there's a part
of you, that part of me that just goes, this
guy has no idea what I've been through just trying
to get to the bottom of this. I mean, to me,
it's a personal. It's a personal investigation. I just happen
to share my results of my research publicly with my films. Right,
I bring a camera with me and I document. I'm
just a very curious person by nature, and I and
I want to get to the bottom of something. I'm
coming to the I'm coming to the realization I'm probably
never going to get to the bottom of it. But
but I have to laugh now because I'm going I
had so much criticism for so long in my life,
like ridiculed, laughed at, made fun of. I remember I
would go to like cocktail parties and I would ask
people do me a favor, you know, and don't tell
people what I do because initially I was kind of
excited about it, but then I just felt under attack
and I would spend the whole night just having to
defend my position. Really, quite honestly, in the day, I
had no interest in doing that anymore. So now I
get criticism, and like it's kind of like water off
a duck's back, because I'm like, yeah, you think this
is criticism. You should have seen what I've been through
in the nineties in early two thousand.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you get this one. Because I always get it.
Speaker 4: So you believe in UFO.
Speaker 3: No, you're a believer. Yeah, you're a believer. Yeah. I
think to myself, it's not a question of believing. It's
more like you either know about the phenomenon or you don't.
Speaker 4: And then and then the question is what are they?
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, not if you believe, I mean
they're Yeah, they're obviously unidentified.
Speaker 3: Anytime I see anybody, I saw Tucker Carlson talking about
it with Michael Schallenberger I think today online, and Tucker's like, oh,
I know what they are. They're not extraterrestrial, they're you know.
And I got no beef with Tucker, But I'm like, Tucker,
you can't make any of those definitive statements. I've been
researching this all around the world for thirty years, and
I have no idea where they come from. Yeah, I
think it could be all the above. Could be interdimensional,
it could be time travelers, could be us in the
who the hell? There could be some inter it could
be some I mean look at the Betty in Barney
Hill case. Yeah, I said they're from a particular star consolation.
Maybe just maybe they're interplanetary. Maybe they were interplanetary. Maybe
there's some that's time travelers, maybe some are already here,
maybe some you know what I mean, why not it
be all of those answers. I'm just saying, I don't know. Yeah,
i'd like to know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And here's a question I ask a lot of people.
My own position is that I don't think the government
really knows the whole picture. What is your opinion on that.
Speaker 3: I would have to believe that, Yeah, I would have
to believe that. I mean, obviously they've got dividendive proof
that you know that they're real. They've got all the
sensory data they've got, they've got recovery wreckage, they've got bodies.
I'm convinced, But that doesn't mean they have all the answers.
As in fact, I was talking to an individual the
other day who remain nameless, someone that I would say
would be in a position to know, and this individual
said to me that they were quite certain that there
was about twenty people that had a bigger picture idea
of what was going on, like a big picture, the
bigger picture, not like they understand all of the complexities
to the phenomenon, but the bigger picture. And then it
was a little scary.
Speaker 2: But do they have a legacy type of situation where
to be passed down.
Speaker 4: People retire and die.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you know, so that always made me
wonder about all the way back from Roswell, you know, era,
to hear what happens to these little secrets. Yeah, as
they generationally move forward.
Speaker 3: You know, I heard that the nineteen fifty three Kingman
Arizona UFO would get taken out every ten years and
see if technology the scientists had gotten caught up with
it yet. They sort of take it out, dust it off,
have a new bunch of scientists, take a look at it,
scratch our heads, put it back in there for another
ten years, bring it back out again. You know.
Speaker 4: Now they have AI. Yeah, yeah, you know, and that'll
do it.
Speaker 3: And then I remember somebody saying, yeah, it was like
it was like they just landed and walked away. I
was like, well, how do you know they landed and
walked away. How do you know that? Yeah? Well, because
there was the object was empty, there was nobody in it,
it didn't crash, it was a controlled landing and the
doors were open. Well, okay, you.
Speaker 4: Can sort of assume, but maybe not so would.
Speaker 3: That have been a gift. Did the nineteen fifty three Kingman,
Arizona case? Did it just like, was it a gift?
Have they figured it out? I have no idea. I
don't know.
Speaker 2: And there's controversy about that case if I remember right,
whether it's.
Speaker 3: Controversy about every case. Yeah, yeah, that's there's no case
crash case is not controversial. Yeah, when you're talking about
a crash, retreevile or live aliens or dead aliens or
whatever or technology, how could that not be controversial. You
can't make that big of a claim without having like
that's why you have to allegedly theoretically you know this
kind of thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, sorry, no, No, Well, since we're on the
topic of controversial, Uh, let's talk a little bit about
Jason Sands, because I think if there's any part of
your documentary that people have been saying there's a little
controversial is about Jason Sands. So can we talk a
little bit about that?
Speaker 3: What do you Okay, Well, we'll talk about I'll talk
about his encounter that, I'll talk about some other things
about him as okay, Because.
Speaker 4: I know you have some pictures to.
Speaker 3: Show, Yeah, I do. I could show you I did
bring so, and I also brought a statement. So I'll
start off with what I start off with what I
know and see, I don't know how well you can
see this and you can see that well, yep, I
can see a perfect is at Nelly's test range in
nineteen ninety three, ninety fourthing like that. Yep. Okay, we
got another one here. There's Jason Sands right there. Yep,
we got another one here. I've got his his wife
covered up because she requested, oh I see, yeah, that's
why I did. I just put that over her face
because she said, please promise me you won't reveal my identity.
I said, okay, no problem, I'll cover you up. She
gave me promise. And there's another one here, Jason Sands
right here. Yeah. And then I have this. And this
is from a congressional source that I met face to
face with on a couple of occasions, from a congressional
source who was aware of his testimony. Mister Sands testified
to three congressional committees and arrow as a whistleblower. His
military and intelligence community background clearances and assignments were fully vetted.
We were, not, however, able to validate some of the
details of his extraordinary testimony. However, mister sands testimony provided
significant new insights that were later validated by multiple witnesses.
Now I mister Sands makes an extraordinary claim. I remember
working on my first UFO documentary in the mid nineties
when I don't remember which sort of tabloid ETV show
it was Inside Edition, maybe I'm not sure, and there
was leak UFO footage from Nelli's Test Range with the
voices of the individual was talking about this UFO that
was on the base. It was filmed on the base
from all the multiple censers at Nellis Test Range in
the winter of nineteen ninety four, and I remember that
I almost featured at one of my dogs. According to
Jason Sands, three days later, he was in a convoy
with a number of individuals we have their names first
and last. There was two three trucks, three Blazers, Chemi Blazers,
Camo Blazers, and I think there was three or four
in the first truck, a couple in the second truck,
and a couple in the third and the third truck.
And it was early early in the morning, wintertime, very cold,
and they were driving up to a place called Quartz
I think it was Quartz Mountain, and they were within
the Nellis Test Range, so the Ron military area, you know,
the civilians can't get to. And according to mister Sands,
he claims that they saw an individual on the side
of the road that looked like he was wearing a
similar outfit as theirs military gear, that looked like in
distress and needed help.
Speaker 4: Walking funny, right.
Speaker 3: Walking funny, trying to run, running awkward, almost like there
was going to fall over. There was just something odd
and they thought maybe it was like a plane crash
or something happened. This individual needed help. And as they
get a little closer, he looked like he had a
little slight blue tint to his skin. Maybe he was
like suffering from hypothermia, you know, he wasn't They weren't
entirely sure. And when they came up on him on
this individual, the guy in the passenger's seat we have
that individual's name first and last, actually got in touch
with them. He screams, he's got no ef in ears.
Jason was on sitting behind the driver in the back
seat of the Chevy Blazer, and he gets out the
passenger door and he's thinking to himself, this guy is
in dire need of medical attention, and you're going to
make fun of his birth effect of no ears, like
what kind of person are you? Kind of thing, And
he's getting out of the back and he said he's
taking his jacket off because he's going to give the
guy some warmth. It was very cold. And then that's
when he locked eyes on this individual, and he said
it was almost like a snake bite, like like shocking,
like this person is is this a mutant? Is this?
What is this? This is not a human that I'm
familiar with. The eyes were really really big, The ears
were all the lobes, everything was on the inside. This
was clean cut, and the eyes were really really big.
And he starts speaking some sort of gibberish almost like
like like Swedish or something, some Scandinavian, but.
Speaker 4: Somehow he was understanding the words.
Speaker 3: But he said, according to Jason Sands, that he could
understand everything that the guy was saying. He's looking for
some type of mental tantillium or something. And he said
that another thing he noticed was that his out his
army fatigues running through the desert should have dust and
dirt all over them, but they didn't have a speck anywhere.
Speaker 4: That is even such bizarre part of that story.
Speaker 3: The bizarre part of the story exactly. Anyway, I wrestled
with this story for sometime. First of all, you know,
I am I probably took uh you know. The Phenomenon
was the first documentary that I ever actually covered alleged
closing encounters of the third kind, right. I always felt
like it was a bit of a slippery slope. I mean,
that's a tall order you're going to talk about, you know,
I'm sure everyone out there knows. Close encounter of the
third kind is when the witness claims to see entities, beans, aliens,
whatever you want to call them, connected to the spacecraft
or you know, because you got close. Kind of the
first kind, somebody claiming to see a UFO second kind
interferes with the or interacts with the environment. And Richard
Dryfer's dryver is his case, and close kind of the
third kind is when he burned his face and marks
on the ground whatever. So third kindness is entities. And
I covered a couple of those cases. I covered Zekoro,
I covered Rua, I covered Virginia, I covered the case
in off the coast of Australia, Papua New Guinea with
the father father Gili like fifty eight or something oway
and the landing case in Australia wasn't quite a closing
out of the third kind. However, some way this has
came forward and said that might have happened. But that's
that's that's another story. So I only have his his testimony.
We have the leaked video from three days prior on
the base. His credentials checked out. I mean I talked
to everybody I possibly could within the Intel about this
individual's credent, his credentials. I got his military records print,
you know over over there, and I went through all
of that, and I remember because you know, some people
were like, you know, he's got PTSD and he's got
some issues. There's no question of that exposure to things
that he's done in his life. And uh, but by
his story, you know, everything else checks out. I mean,
he's named even like this one individual said, you know,
I got in trouble just for asking about the program
that he knew the name of. You know this he
he checks out like he is who he says he is,
and he was where he says he was. So I
remember I was feeling really frustrated and and and uh,
I finally got this. We found uh the individual that
allegedly debriefed all the military people after the alleged encounter.
That individual would not confirm or deny were I think.
I think the way they phrased it is, we're aware
of the incident, but we're now you know, wouldn't confirm
or deny, not even hon or off the record, there's nothing.
So I was really frustrated, and I remember saying, Okay,
I literally said, well, do you I talked to a
couple of boys. Do you think this happened? Or do
you think it? What do you think? People that I trusted,
and they were like, well, despite his PTSD and despite
some of his other claims, we think it happened. I
was like, okay, well I'm going to feature this. I'm
going to feature it, but what about the people that
were with him? Have I okay? So, uh, I I'd
be careful how I say this. But we did reach out.
We did reach out to one started a correspondence and
as soon as we mentioned the encounter, ghosted ye. It's like, hey,
how you doing a long time to see blah blah blah.
Hey do you remember the blah blah blah blah? You know, gone,
that was it, And then I have other names and
it's an ongoing thing, so we'll see. Yeah, I mean,
I'd love. I'd love because we have it. We have
we have a location, we have a rough roughly a date,
we can get the exact date, and and we have
some names first and last.
Speaker 2: So you know the crazy thing about his uniform, just
wearing a uniform like theirs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, uh, you.
Speaker 2: Know, I don't know why, but to me, when a
story is bizarre like that, it almost gives more ability
to the story. Then you know, a weird detail to
make up. Yeah, I mean it's a weird detail. Why
would you make that up?
Speaker 3: There?
Speaker 4: So bizarre and so I like those type of stories.
Speaker 3: Two other things I thought about too, uh and Jason
sands it it's it's a long complicated story. He had
gone on a couple of Uh, I don't know X.
What was you? What do you? It's like a joining
a group on X saying making some other spaces I
think they call Yeah, the space is making some one
or two really kind of outliners claims. And I remember
calling up going like even in the zero zero, zero
one percent chance that that is true, Like, that's the
most discrediting thing. I think, like, you can't, what do
you Anyway, I was exprestraated, but I was like, you know,
I was the one that blues covered by accident, Like
I'm the one that I heard about it.
Speaker 4: It was actually the storyboard like behind you.
Speaker 3: It was a little clipboard and it was in the
shot of behind the scenes and had his name written
on it, and if you zoomed in, yeah you see name.
And so I kind of booze covered. I felt bad
about it because he had he hadn't gone through the
dobster process. He wasn't thinking about going to public like
you know, with his name and everything else. It was
I'm sure he was ready for that, and that kind
of accelerated that whole process. But I remember thinking about
a couple of things. One is I met Robert Bigelow,
and it was right after the letter I showed you
Steven Spielberg from two thousand and nine. Yeah, so I
that film kind of probably came out in late two
thousand and nine. I know what I saw, and I
got an email which I could show you. I still
have it. I got an email from Robert Bigelow's secretary
and she said, mister Fox, got a message from Robert Bigelow,
wants to congratulate you on your movie. A job well done.
And I thought, wow, I heard about Bigeloa. Oh wow,
bigelo And so we ended up getting together at his
house in Las Vegas. And this was like probably late
two thousand and nine, maybe two thousand and dan an
exact date. And so I went to his home that
it was with my sister, and we had lunch and
he talked about two things that really kind of stuck
in my head. One was the politics of disclosure. And
he was like, yeah, we've done the study, and you know,
we made the determination after a year or two years
or whatever it was, that it would have this impact
on organized religion, it would have an impact on financial institutions.
And he literally said, take all the scandals you ever
heard in life, and multiply that by a thousand or
a million or whatever, and that is what we think
the impact that this story is going to have on
the human race. I'm not so sure I agree with that,
but whatever. And then he said, and they're walking among us,
and I said, I'm sorry, I'm not sure, do you
what do you mean? And he said, they're walking among us.
They're walking among us. Well, I'm sorry, what do you
mean by that? And he goes, I mean exactly that
they're walking among us. Now, I certainly wasn't ready for
that information back in two thousand and nine, you know,
I hadn't covered any close accounts of the third kind.
I'd heard about them, obviously, I'd heard about abductions and
d D, but I'd always steered clear. I thought, Eh,
I wasn't ready for it, but I but I did.
I did have to say that, you know, this guy's
put more investment, you know, the you know hired you know,
nids and all the intellectual heavyweights and scientific community and
all his studies and the contracts with government and da
da da da, da da da. I guess he would
be in a position to know if it were true.
I can't just believe it because it's him telling me that.
But then I also thought about, you know, when I
got together with Gary McKinnon, and Gary McKinnon was considered
to be one of the biggest computer hackers in the
history of you know, and he was just trying to
find out UFO secrets and got caught and nearly went
to jail for the rest of his life. If he
would be in America, he's going to be extra. Died
from England. And one of the two things he said
was one he found a list of non terrestrial officers.
That's what he said. Wow, back in late nineties, early
two thousands, whatever the year, that was very at least
at least twenty years ago. At least twenty years ago.
He's like, yeah, I found this lace. I saw this object.
It was a cigar shaped hit this bubble. Well it
was floating in the atmosphere, really good resolution, no rivets,
you know, all that stuff. And then he said, yeah,
I found this list of non terrestrial officers. And it's like, yeah,
I guess one could argue that that could be astronauts,
I guess, but it's weird to call them non terrestrial officers.
I've never heard that reference in it before, but it
just got me thinking because I remember time and time
again like this. The phenomenon's pretty pretty crazy. It's pretty
out there. And you know, just because I hear something
and I've learned this from thirty years, it's like, you know,
you have that knee jerk reaction of this can't possibly
be true, therefore it isn't. Yeah, I've just excuse me.
I've learned to suspend judgment and go, okay, I'll listen
to this.
Speaker 2: And yeah, now I remember when he was I remember
hearing about him hacking, you know, those many years ago,
huge before it was dial up and you know the
way it was dial up, how he got he did
it with dialog all the way back then. And you know,
I'm just amazing, but I had never heard because I
wasn't really paying much attention to the UFO world. Yeah,
I just had heard that he had done it and
that he was, you know, likely news. Yeah, most likely
going to be extradited.
Speaker 3: And yeah, it was like sixty years in prison or.
Speaker 2: Something something like that. Was it s it was espionage
or what was the charge.
Speaker 3: Where he told me he said he knew that he'd
been caught when he was in one of the insistants
at Johnston'space Center and he was downloading that image, the
image of the Firth and yeah, and the and the
cigar shaped craft and he said he saw the cursor
move and then the screen, you know, and he was
he was it was my Eureka moment, but also that
moment where I've been caught and I think it was
a couple months later he woke up in the morning
in London with men in suits over his bed, talk
about spooky, and that was it. Maybe just you know, yeah,
imagine waking up with there in your.
Speaker 2: House and then you know here that he can't go
out of the k yeah, for the rest of his
life basically, which is really something.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So one of the things you.
Speaker 3: Shouldet a pardon. Yeah. One of the is he didn't
do anybody in any harm.
Speaker 2: I know this is kind of still, but one of
the things I really love about your documentaries is the narrator,
Peter his his. I wish he could tell me bed
time stories.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you know, next time, I actually know
what I'm gonna do. I'm so glad you made me
think of this. The next time I get him to
narrate a movie, I'm gonna get him. Hey, on the side,
can you just say how you reached the voice will
of James? But please?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah you should do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, more creative and fun than that.
Speaker 4: But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to live out
near Marin County.
Speaker 2: He lives there, right, yeah, yeah, somewhere out there, remember
hearing a move.
Speaker 3: He used to live either in Sauce Alito or Mill
Valley or something. Right now he's out like uh sebastable
or something. Oh yeah, yeah he relocated.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I didn't I did want to say this
that uh And I know we talked about it earlier
before the show, but I really feel so sorry for
the poor people out in California, and many of them
have been on the show that have had, you know,
terrible situations.
Speaker 4: It's just a terrible.
Speaker 3: Thing ongoing on. I know, unimaginable, Yeah, unimaginable, like unimaginable.
You're very like that's all you. I mean, you're lucky
to even have that, like your your sanctuary, right your home,
your possessions, your bed, you're and to all just be
taken away in a flash, right, I mean, it's so devastating.
It's just it's it's really yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So my heart out to all you people out there.
And there's no need for these silly conrasy theories about
there's all kinds of I mean, all you have to
do is open social media and you hear like a
directed pulses and players and all that, and people don't
understand this, but I do because my sister lost her
house on a fire, you know, a forest fire. And
basically what happened was she had ashes on the floor
from an oak dresser right on the floor, and then
six feet away was an antique table with a newspaper
on it. So what happens is the air, the airport,
buckets of air. The fire does these little flashes. And
that's what people can't understand. They're saying, why are these trees? Okay,
when the bridge is burned out, you know that type
of thing. But that does that's fire is a strange thing.
Speaker 3: And you've seen I've seen pictures of a house standing
and everything around it burned, all the other houses burned. Yeah,
it's just some kind of weird Yeah.
Speaker 2: And someone that was on the show recently, on my
show here, I won't say his name because I don't
have his permission, but he sent me a video and
his house was saved. The fireman were right there spraying
his house, while his neighbor's house was burned right down.
So but his house made it with some damage, but
at least he still has it.
Speaker 4: And yeah, it's really sad.
Speaker 2: But anyway, onto back onto your your movie. The Calvine photo.
I love that photo. I had David Clark on a
couple of times talking about that. I think that's my
personal feelings on that is that is the best photo
that I know about me.
Speaker 3: A better one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's that one in Australia that's pretty
amazing the guy took with the polaroid.
Speaker 3: James Kibble, Right, Yeah, I got pretty revealed that for
the first time in the phenomenon. Yeah. Remember, I mean
that's a good photograph. But nowhere, I mean, come on, yeah,
I mean you know it's an object and yeah, it's cool.
I mean you can definitely see it. Like he said.
He literally said in his haste, James Kibble. I got
him on camera. He'd been hiding for fifty years. He
said that he saw the thing. He had it, he
had his you know, did.
Speaker 4: He say it was a Polari?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he said he was documenting his garden for his mother. Yeah,
and all of a sudden he got this flash and
he looked up and there was his disc and I
think he said it was like kind of doing this
kind of like a leaf kind of falling and he
grabbed his camera and he said, in his haste he
hid himself in the face, split his nose open.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and but clicked and as it did so, it
went like this, yeah, boom, he clicked the picture got
one and then he said it sped off and an
unbelievable rate of speed. And I asked him, I was like,
can you describe the acceleration? And he said it was
like being shot out of a gun of a like
the barrel of a gun. Yeah, damn gone, Well.
Speaker 4: Hear that so many times. Really do things just shoot off?
Speaker 3: But the Calvine UFO photograph, Thank you David Clark and
all the others that were involved in in that case,
and and thank you to Richard ve Uh for coming
forward because that definitely is a is a big piece
of the of the puzzle that was missing. And I
believe Richard and and obviously, uh, you know Craig Lindsay,
the former press officer for r F Air Force Nick
Pope coming on and commenting on it.
Speaker 4: He talked about that photo for years.
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, I heard about the late nineties and
his book. I think open open Skies, Closed Minds, I
think it was. But yeah, I remember I mean, if
you Nick Pope. For pretty much most of my movies.
I remember Boyish, you know. We'd go and i'd meet
him at the at the at Parliament when he was
at the desk of the mod and come out and
shoot an interview and maybe go to lunch and have
a couple of pints. And I see this interview, this
little young boyish, I mean, he looked like he was
like twenty five, you know. But I would ask him like, hey,
you know, what's some of the best cases, and he
just would always say, oh, there was this I think
he said, excuse me for I think he said. I
think he said it took a place in Scotland. There
were two hikers and they had like five prints and
this object. I don't remember if he talked about the
military jet, but he definitely talked about points of reference
and this big diamond shaped UFO and I remember thinking, like,
what happened to that picture? It was in a poster.
I pastored him and pastored him in pastoral because I
was like, look, he goes, I don't know, man, I left,
I'm retired now. I said, we'll contact the people that
you were working with therapy around the They didn't throw
the buttograph of the garbage. You can, I guarantee you
if somebody kept it, you know, oh you know, and
I what about your predecessor? You know all this stuff,
and all I can say again, I can't. I can't
overstate the significance of the work that David Clark did
because they buried that story and it would have never
seen the light of day. I had not been for
the work they didn't had it not been for Greg
Lindsay holding onto that one print, right, you know, and
asked Craig Lindsay about that. And I'm sure you know this,
or maybe you do or maybe you don't. But I
asked them. I was like, well, what are the other five? Prints?
Looked like I wasn't sure if there was six or
five in total in all, but he said that Craig
Lindsay had seen them all. He said that you had
that diamond shaped you know, disc diamond whatever you want
to call it, ground fence, and then you have what
turns out they're almost positive it was a Harrier jump jet, yes,
and that you know, the camera guy got up the
courage because I guess they were hiding under the tree.
They were terrified what is this silent object just hovering there,
suspended in the sky right there, And when the jet came,
that's when they got the courage out and took six
I think five or six yeah photos, And he said
that the jet like this is according to and other
people said there were two jets. I'm just telling you
what Craig Lindsay told me. He said it was picture
click click object click click click. So the Harrier jet
goes right round and they take a picture, and the
Harrier jets in a different position, but the disc or
the or the diamond shaped craft is stationary. And then
after that it just shot off straight up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's not going to be one of ours.
I mean, there's speculation that was something to do with
some of our you know, maybe an experimental craft or
something like that. But we're not going to have anything
shoot straight up.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. Look, we can't absolutely eliminate
the possibility that it was some super secret military prototype,
whatever you want to call it. I have a tough
time with that because of the of the technology that
was what thirty four years ago, thirty five years ago.
That's a huge story. If that's the case. They managed
to keep this revolutionary technology from us. And I'm not
saying look, I've I can never say never. My in
clean based on all the research that I've done, is
that that was not our technology. That was that would
fall into the category of other. But I could be wrong, right,
I could be wrong either way. It's a huge story
because if if if it is one of ours, then
we've you know, it's for all intensive purpose. I guess
it would be considered anti gravitic technology or certainly something
that could an object with no wings, no visible means
of propulsion, didn't make any sound, that could that could hover,
fly and then go straight up in the I mean
right crazy.
Speaker 2: So I just want to say goodbye to everyone over
at KGRA. We'll be back next week with Ryan Graves.
And I also have Terry Randall on from Nova, so
that that's an in studio with Ryan Graves next week.
Thank you at KGr A Radio. Now, James, i'd like
to have you on for a little while longer, yeah,
and I would like to discuss what do you think
about the drone situation.
Speaker 3: I got a text from this Air Force colonel that
was actually helping me dig my teeth into the Virginie
UFO case, because he was like, look, if that plane
really did come into landing Campenis I got cont I'll
get to the second. I got contacted by this guy
anonymously for several months. We're going back and forth with emails,
and he was very knowledgeable. And I get contacted by
a lot of people. This guy stood out. I was like,
this guy is really really knowledgeable. Only one day I
was like, who are you? And he goes, well, actually,
I'm a I'm a I'm a former United States Air
Force couronel. I'm also a fighter pilot and I had
a very dramatic UFO and count in nineteen eighty in Europe.
And Uh, I was like, ah, that blames it. Well,
he texted he actually has a cameo in the in
the in the pro the outtakes. Yeah, exactly, And uh
he texted me a couple of weeks ago when the
film compt He goes, James, let me ask you a question.
How did you manage to orchestrate an alien invasion or
a drone UAP invasion to coincide with the release of.
Speaker 4: Your movie perfect.
Speaker 3: I was like, how did you do that?
Speaker 4: Because I'd like to know you know that's an expensive campaign.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and so I was reaching out to everybody
I could possibly reach out to because I knew everyone
was going to be asking asking me those questions. What
I find unusual is that the size of the drones,
the loiter time of the drones. I mean, obviously, you know,
I'm sure that the United States military has highly advanced
drones that we're totally not even aware of. I mean,
they probably have things that look like a bird that
fly out there too. I'm sure they've got I mean,
I remember going to the nineteen fifties and sixties. It's
the like the James Bond equivalent museum of like all
the high tech stuff that was done, you know, forty fifties,
sixty years ago. Have you heard about that. It's in Washington, DC. Event,
Holy smokes, sounds like it. Stuff. You're seeing stuff that
was obviously classify at the time, but like dragonflies from
like the nineteen fifties or sixties, really intricate that could
fly and they look exactly like a dragonfly. Crazy fifty
years ago, I was blowing my mind. You can only
imagine what they have nowadays, right, you know what I mean? Nanotechnology, gnats, whatever,
So I'm certain it's quite possible there's an element of that. However,
there were fifty drums coming in off the ocean that's
scratching their heads. The government's going, we don't know what
they are, but don't worry about it. Everything's fine.
Speaker 4: It's like, wait, yeah, it's kind of like the UFO.
Speaker 3: I jokingly said that about the movie Jaws on Rogan
because it was like, you remember Jaws when they were
like the mayor was like, everything's fine, don't worry about that,
don't worry about you know, they have this swim swim,
you know, massive tourist based industry economy, and you know,
everything's fine, and it's so funny like they would say that.
It's just like Bill Nelson, the head of Nelton, head
of NASA. I was so glad I got that question. Yeah,
because he's going, we don't know what they are, but
they're not extraterrestrial. I'm like, yeah, how could you say
what something isn't when you don't know what it is exactly?
So to answer your question on the drone thing, I
think it's complex and I think that if there was
an easy answer, they'd give it to us. But something
weird is going on because there's you know, warbs that
are being seen as well, there's a high loiter time.
Why would they be flying these things over residential areas
night after night after night. I mean I had friends
that lived there calling me going, what the hell's going on?
Never seen anything like this?
Speaker 4: And I got to tell you what in my conversation with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. So I did answer your question,
I don't. I don't know. I wish, I wish I did.
I don't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the conversation I had recently with Ryan Graves, yeah,
he said that nothing has slowed down. It's just the
media reporting. So they're still ongoing. And I still get
things sent to me, Like today, someone sent me something
I think it was from Norway. Drones over there. I mean,
this is a This isn't just the United States and
New Jersey. It's and you know what, it was around
Christmas time for a couple of years in a row,
if that happened.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I read a report by a guy named Jeff Nusatelli,
I think it is who was stationed at Vandenburg Air
Force Base. I think it was two thousand and three,
two thousand and four, two thousand and five where he
talks about these mass these incursions with orbs and these
massive football field sized you know, triangles over the base.
I think that's a that's a case that Yeah, so
there's nothing. Yeah, these these things have been happening, you know,
for the FOO fighters back in the World War two orbs. Yeah,
so I don't know, something weird going on. That's a
question of that. I mean why, you know, I remember
the former SENTI Majority leader Schumer, yeah, coming, you know,
and there was somebody in the crowd screaming, you know,
these drones, and he goes, these drones. I'm sorry you
wrote the legislation. You guys are calling them UAPs. Well,
we don't know what they are, yeah, exactly. So it's
an unidentified aerial or novelist phenomena. It's in the bloody sky,
you know. But I think they used the word drones
because they knew that UAP had a bit of a
scarier you know, because it's like, you know, that's that's like,
you know, one associates UFO UAP last, but with other
worldly right, not us or not any kind of foreign
So I think they use the word drones because it
makes people sleep better. Maybe that's what it is some
of the drones, and maybe maybe there's some drones some conventionable.
It's really weird. These are not your hobby drones. I
fly drugs, right, These are highly sophisticated, very large, long
loiter times and hours and hours yep. And then what
are they doing? Right?
Speaker 2: And and then there was some people reporting that they
flew or drone up to one and that their drone doll.
Speaker 3: Out of the sky. Yeah. I heard that number of
those instances.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know what what is that all about?
It it's another weird mystery.
Speaker 3: And that could that could be military?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3: It could military would have that ability. I would imagine
to drop other things. It could be a potential thread
out of the sky, you know, I mean, I don't know.
I mean because the UFO bdify UFO usually has an
evasive maneuver, evasive action. Anytime you go, you know, try
they usually take off at a pretty high rate. I'm
just saying, I don't know. Certainly would be fitting of
lots of incidences in the past.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what do you think is you know, you
mentioned that you may revamp one of your older movies.
Speaker 4: Do you have things planned and the.
Speaker 2: That was the identified That was the end of say
what do you have in the future planned? In the
future anything? Anything planned?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, going back to Brazilt, Yeah, I'm going to revamp.
Just like I did with Out of the Blue, I'm
gonna do that with Moment of Contact. I'm going to
bring it up to twenty twenty five. We've got some
new developments on the case. We got the Foyer thing.
We've got a number of new people coming forward, forensic pathologists,
things of that nature. Are going to get them on camera.
I've got a brilliant idea for the whole new it's
I got it all mapped out, and then I'm probably
going to do an event at the National Press Club.
I've been talking a little bit about that with Leslie
Kane and uh yeah, because things are happening so quickly
right now that it would be good, I think. And
I could make a movie out of it, just like
I did with the idea what I saw. I could
document it, like get all the witnesses out. The common
theme would be not totally sure. I'm still thinking about
thinking it through, but it would be uh, you know,
because because I'm curious, what is it going to take
because everyone's frustrated because to we're these first hand witnesses. Yeah,
first of all, the terrified for their security and safety,
not just their careers. But you know, the fear factor
is real, right, So I'm curious and I'm looking into this, like,
what would it take. Let's just say that the incoming
administration wanted to wave their magic wand and provide immunity
for these first hand witnesses to come forward and testify
under oath and open congressional airings, because we know that
a handful of them have done it in a skiff
behind closed doors. Yeah right, But what is it going
to take to get them at the comfort level they
need to come forward and reveal the details needed to
verify the claims they're making. You know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Do you that I would ever let that happen?
Speaker 3: Well, when you say they, I mean the people that
the keepers of the secret.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the gatekeepers, the gatekeepers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they're losing control of the situation. I
don't think they're gonna I don't think they're gonna hold on.
But I don't I don't think so. I think they
probably know at this point it's probably somewhat of a
controlled disclosure in my opinion. Yeah, I mean I I
you know, I remember. The closest we ever came to
what felt like potential I would say disclosure, but certainly
I pushed in that direction was two thousand and seven,
two thousand and eight, when when England was releasing their
previously classified files, mod and the French were doing the same,
and other countries were having like things being released. There
wasn't a whole lot attraction at the time going on
in the United States. However, we found out later that
there was, but it was class It was all that
in secret because when I was meeting with Bigelow back
in two thousand and nine, he was working with ASAP,
you know, which eventually evolves into into a TIP. So
Leslie Kane and I were asking for a new government
investigation into UFOs and guess what it was happening at
that time. Isn't that weird? Think about? Yeah, we were like,
you know, start a new project blue book will it
was and it was AWESAP and a tip and it
was under it was underground, it was hidden, and it
leaked ten years later. Nicol, Yeah, that's great. Something I
a little factoid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, something I have talked about maybe once or twice
on this, but I find it really interesting. South Carolina,
I spent some time and I'm involved in group strummers
who strum our guitars, you know, and talking to a
guy there who I did a little UFO presentation there,
which was great. We had two hundred fifty people show up,
you know. I did UFO one O one there.
Speaker 3: Is that literally what you called it?
Speaker 4: Or yes, yeah, for you know, people just interested in it.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So anyway, I had really a fun time doing that.
Speaker 2: But this guy says, oh, yeah, I had a water
cooler talk when I was worked for the government with
the UFO guys in Ohio at you know. And he says, yeah,
I had water cooler talk all the time. I said, oh, yeah,
when was that in the late late sixties and he said, yeah,
right into the nineteen seventies. I said, wait a minute,
not nineteen seventy, and he said, yeah, nineteen seventy. After
nineteen seventy, he goes, I don't know exactly when, but
he said, you were still talking to these guys about
UFOs then, And I said, Project Bluebook closed in nineteen
sixty nine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I thought that was really interesting. Now I
can't you know, I talk.
Speaker 2: I see him all the time when I'm down there,
but you know that I don't think I can get
any further than that, but I thought it was interesting.
Speaker 3: I think of Project blue Book and it's almost synonymous
with that one statement by Errol Brown was the Secretary
of the Air Force when he's like he's got this
little shit eating grin on his face, and then the
camera's on his face and he kind of straightens up
and he's like, oh, yeah, I have not been hiding anything.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 3: I love I mustn't given that quote like so much
runtime with LOFE because it's so telling, you know, it's
like sabled robot it. I've noticed with the program. There
was a moment during the press conference at NASA where
they were just like reeling off the same baloney they've
been really for, you know, and then I juxtaposed, you know,
the Air Force staying the same thing fifty six.
Speaker 4: That's I love way you did that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love the way Jay and Heech
is yeah, yeah, that's exact birth. That was beautiful yeah yeah, yeah,
So yeah, I mean one thing, key and what NASA
was doing. They were working with just unclassified information, so silly,
so it doesn't even.
Speaker 3: Decide to fail.
Speaker 2: It's of course window dressing. As you say, I would
like to play the trailer to the program.
Speaker 3: Please just do it.
Speaker 4: Here we go.
Speaker 3: In twenty seventeen, The New York Times.
Speaker 4: Published a story exposing a secret government program investigating UFOs.
Speaker 2: That story was kind of a catalyst for a lot
of things that have happened since.
Speaker 4: Members of Congress start to ask.
Speaker 3: Questions instruments report there is something there.
Speaker 2: There are flight characteristics that we can't explain.
Speaker 3: UAPs are unexplained. It's true, they need to be investigated.
Here we are.
Speaker 1: Having a hearing where just a few years ago did
acknowledge that these things were real.
Speaker 3: Do you believe that our government is in possession of UAPs? Absolutely?
Speaker 6: Based on interviewing over forty witnesses over four years.
Speaker 3: You're telling me people have come forward claiming first hand
knowledge of craft of non human origin.
Speaker 6: That's correct.
Speaker 3: We have sources who have asserted not only that there
have been crashes, but there have been crash retriebles. Do
we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft?
Speaker 6: Biologics came with some of these recoveries.
Speaker 3: Yeah, were they human or non human? Non human?
Speaker 6: I'm sitting here today because the American people are being
lied to.
Speaker 3: We are the American government, and we are open and
we're going to be open about this. What has been.
Speaker 2: Revealed, non human intelligence exists, non human intelligence has been
interacting with humanity.
Speaker 3: Is only part of the story.
Speaker 6: The partners are kindagon the CIA if they're going to
have to answer the man.
Speaker 3: Some are risking everything. Have you had incidences that has
caused you to be in fear for your life? Yes,
personally to uncover the rest What is being done to
verify the assertion that the US government has spaceships of
non human intelligence in their possession. That kind of revelation
unearthed people's beliefs.
Speaker 6: We go to jail to say thanks that I've been
exposed to in the program.
Speaker 3: Here we go.
Speaker 4: All I can say is bravo.
Speaker 3: I got to see that movie that that was incredible. God,
I had me on the edge of my seat. Yeah
I know, I know.
Speaker 2: So anyway, I want to thank you so much. It's
been such a pleasure during this show with you tonight.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having on it. It was good fun.
We'll do it again, I hope so.
Speaker 2: And it's so nice to be here and what a
lovely place you have, and I'm so glad that things
have worked out, you know. I know it's a tough, tough,
uh you know, thing to go through when all the
work you put in and then.
Speaker 3: Me getting ripped off. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to say that, but that part, that
part is really tough, but I was very tough.
Speaker 4: I hope, not gonna lie that was that was tough.
Speaker 2: I hope you can just keep plowing ahead and you know,
get that behind you in the rearview mirror and.
Speaker 3: Keep doing what you're doing with We love what you do.
I can speak.
Speaker 2: I'm speaking for myself, but I'm also speaking for a
lot of people, my listeners.
Speaker 3: We love what you do. I think I got a
couple of films left in me.
Speaker 4: Good glad to get you all right. Take care,