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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. This January, film Rise released the chilling true
Speaker 5: crime documentary Unseen, from award winning director and producer Laura Paglan.
Speaker 5: For two years, women had been disappearing from Mount Pleasant,
Speaker 5: a poverty stricken African American neighborhood in Cleveland, with little
Speaker 5: investigation from police and city officials. Then, in two thousand
Speaker 5: and nine, a reported rape led Cleveland police to a
Speaker 5: grisly discovery the bodies of eleven women decomposing in the
Speaker 5: house and yard of known sex offender Anthony Soul. How
Speaker 5: was it that a serial killer was able to operate
Speaker 5: virtually in plain sight for two years? Told in riveting
Speaker 5: detail by the women who were able to escape Soul's
Speaker 5: deadly clutches, Unseen draws viewers into a world where marginalized
Speaker 5: women plagued by drug use, shunned by society, and dismissed
Speaker 5: by the police, become easy prey for a predatory monster.
Speaker 5: Unseen questions not only the police failures in this case,
Speaker 5: but also why Soul's neighbors turned a blind eye to
Speaker 5: his bizarre activities. Through intimate, revealing interviews, Paglin gives voice
Speaker 5: to Soul's victims, allowing them to tell their stories, showing
Speaker 5: us how the attempt to come to grips with their
Speaker 5: horrific experiences. Unseen was in an official selection at Cleveland
Speaker 5: International Film Festival and doc New York City. It was
Speaker 5: also a contender for the Social Impact Award at Greenwich
Speaker 5: International Film Festival and Documentary Award nominee at Portland Film Festival.
Speaker 5: Unseen acts as a haunting indictment of a police force
Speaker 5: that failed its citizens. The subject of our program this
Speaker 5: evening is Unseen, a true crime documentary about a Cleveland
Speaker 5: serial killer and the women he prayed on with my
Speaker 5: special guest producer and director and co writer Laura Paglin.
Speaker 5: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 5: green to this interview. Laura Paglin, thank you, thank you
Speaker 5: very much. Incredible Unseen about Anthony Soul. Tell us when
Speaker 5: this was released, you'd say, it just released. To tell
Speaker 5: us how it's available, and tell us when it was released,
Speaker 5: and just tell us a little bit about these film
Speaker 5: festivals that it was premiered at.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, it's kind of a long process because the
Speaker 2: film was you might say, released in film festivals, started
Speaker 2: exhibiting at film festivals in twenty sixteen. However, I didn't
Speaker 2: secure distribution until twenty eighteen with film Rise. So now
Speaker 2: people can watch it on iTunes and Amazon. And I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: I forgot your other question.
Speaker 5: You know, I just want to see where it was
Speaker 5: available and that it is as of we mentioned in
Speaker 5: the introduction as of this January, So the end of
Speaker 5: January it's available. Now it is. Yes, Now, I just
Speaker 5: looked basically at just your IMD background, So tell us
Speaker 5: it doesn't look like from that background that you'd be
Speaker 5: interested in something like this. So tell us how you
Speaker 5: came to do this film, why you wanted to do
Speaker 5: this film, what you thought you might be able to
Speaker 5: say with this film. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 5: why you wanted to do this film Unseen.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I mean I'd never really done anything involving
Speaker 2: true crime before. I never had any particular interest. However,
Speaker 2: my past documentaries have dealt with kind of you might say,
Speaker 2: underdogs of society.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 2: The last film I did, called The Facing Forward, a
Speaker 2: students story, was about a young inner city teenager who
Speaker 2: came from a very kind of chaotic background and he
Speaker 2: was put in this very rigorous, strict school. So it's
Speaker 2: kind of a culture shock for him. And so the
Speaker 2: whole film I follow him for a span of several years,
Speaker 2: and so I deal with that. And then another another
Speaker 2: film that went to sun Dance was called No Umbrella.
Speaker 2: Election Day in the City And realize it's been a
Speaker 2: long time, but you might remember that the two thousand
Speaker 2: and four national elections was a very very close one,
Speaker 2: and so the whole film takes place at this one
Speaker 2: polling location where this eighty two year old city council
Speaker 2: woman who's about five foot tall is trying to get
Speaker 2: enough voting machines for again, these inner city people to
Speaker 2: vote with. So, yeah, I was more interested in, I guess,
Speaker 2: portraying people. So yeah, you would think, well, how does
Speaker 2: that really segue into something like this, So kind of
Speaker 2: the long answer to your question is that when I
Speaker 2: heard about these murders in October two thousand and nine,
Speaker 2: I kept telling myself, no, I was not interested in
Speaker 2: doing this, but it's really literally the scene of the
Speaker 2: murders is about fifteen minutes from my house. So I
Speaker 2: kind of just created a reason to go down there.
Speaker 2: And again, I didn't want to be a gawker. I
Speaker 2: thought I couldn't think of what I could possibly contribute
Speaker 2: because there was so much press. There was press from
Speaker 2: all over the world, and you know, I thought, well,
Speaker 2: what you know, this is just being covered. It's very depressing. Again,
Speaker 2: what am I going to contribute? So what happened was
Speaker 2: I was working on another film that actually kind of
Speaker 2: took place in the same neighborhood. So I create an
Speaker 2: excuse just to go there. I thought, of women, I'll
Speaker 2: just get a few shots of the house. Maybe I
Speaker 2: can kind of tie it in. And at that point there,
Speaker 2: as you know, the twenty four hour news cycle being
Speaker 2: what it is, all of the press had left because
Speaker 2: of the Fort Hood shooting, and so you know, there
Speaker 2: were a few camera local camera people, but so I
Speaker 2: was just filming the house and all of these people
Speaker 2: started coming up to me. Neighbors who were still so
Speaker 2: upset by this, and they just wanted to talk. So
Speaker 2: I guess my first sort of aha moment was thinking, Wow,
Speaker 2: people really want to talk about this. You know there
Speaker 2: is something here, There's something for me to do, though
Speaker 2: again I didn't know what it was yet.
Speaker 5: Now, part of the process to do this is very
Speaker 5: similar to you are a writer, so very similar to
Speaker 5: an author in many ways, and part of that is
Speaker 5: just basic. Your beginning process is probably a lot of research.
Speaker 5: And I saw Robert Sperner's name and he was on
Speaker 5: the program talking about his book House of Whorors and
Speaker 5: say he's involved in this film in some way tell
Speaker 5: us about Robert Spyerna's involvement. But also just the research
Speaker 5: that you did do before you underwent this project.
Speaker 2: Actually, surprisingly I did. I didn't do that much research
Speaker 2: because I guess at the beginning in two thousand and nine,
Speaker 2: you know, not that much was known. I mean, when
Speaker 2: I first started, we didn't even know who the women were.
Speaker 2: They were still trying to identify the women, so it's
Speaker 2: not as if there was anything to research. I was
Speaker 2: just sort of following what was going on in the papers.
Speaker 2: So I guess Unlike a book, where you can kind
Speaker 2: of cover a lot, you have to very quicklyocus in
Speaker 2: on a theme. And so I knew sort of write
Speaker 2: off that I wasn't particularly interested in serial killers because
Speaker 2: to me, im, you know, they're not It's not someone
Speaker 2: I can identify with as a person, you know. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm curious as a as an individual about you know,
Speaker 2: what makes them tick. But as far as making a film,
Speaker 2: I want to make it about people that I might
Speaker 2: be able to identify and sympathize with. So I decided
Speaker 2: to focus it more on the victims. The problem with
Speaker 2: that again aside from just getting access to families, especially
Speaker 2: during this time of grief, as you know, how do
Speaker 2: you kind of recreate someone who has already passed, And
Speaker 2: a lot of these women were poor, they'd been away
Speaker 2: from their families because of drugs, and so a lot
Speaker 2: of them didn't even have photos. It was you know,
Speaker 2: pre digital aid, so you know, there might be just
Speaker 2: one or two photos. So then I thought, well, it's
Speaker 2: got to focus more on the women that escaped, But
Speaker 2: so far there had only been a couple that had
Speaker 2: actually spoken to the media, and again, the media is
Speaker 2: sort of all over them. Because they had come forward,
Speaker 2: and so I really didn't get very far. You know,
Speaker 2: I've just sort of filmed a lot of the things,
Speaker 2: you know, the action that was going on outside the
Speaker 2: house and sort of whoever whoever was accessible at the time.
Speaker 2: But it really wasn't until twenty eleven when there was
Speaker 2: the trial that I was aware of of more of
Speaker 2: the women that escaped, and that's how I met Robert
Speaker 2: actually was at the trial. I mean, it pretty much
Speaker 2: drew all the reporters and writers and people who were
Speaker 2: working on this. So it was really at that point
Speaker 2: that because they were, as I should explain, that the
Speaker 2: judge had put a gag order on the witnesses, so
Speaker 2: even if they were willing to talk, they simply couldn't.
Speaker 2: So around you know, twenty eleven twenty twelve is when
Speaker 2: we were able to meet many of these these people,
Speaker 2: including more of the women that escaped, and again Robert
Speaker 2: writing a book, had and having he was really great
Speaker 2: at tracking people down, interviewed you know, far more people,
Speaker 2: and also was able to get his book out sooner.
Speaker 2: Film is a very long process, so he was very
Speaker 2: helpful in terms of of you know, setting me up
Speaker 2: with some of the subjects who particularly some of the
Speaker 2: women that has had escaped. So that is how that worked.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about before we talk about some of
Speaker 5: the victims, and especially as you do in the film,
Speaker 5: you opened with victim Melvet Sockwell and she leads to
Speaker 5: Anthony Sowell receiving a fifteen year sentence or a sentence
Speaker 5: where he is in there for fifteen years rape that
Speaker 5: she reports to police. Melvet Sockwell. Very powerful opening to
Speaker 5: unseen for all of the victims. And you say you
Speaker 5: met them after the trial. Obviously you couldn't speak to
Speaker 5: them before that. What did you say to them to
Speaker 5: convince them? Because this is a film that goes beyond
Speaker 5: the typical even with victim centered or focused documentaries, to
Speaker 5: get that much more information, it's that much more intimate.
Speaker 5: It's everything that possibly you would want to know about
Speaker 5: how they got to where they got to. What did
Speaker 5: you say to them to convince them? How did you
Speaker 5: go about convincing them that you were going to do
Speaker 5: something different than some people that are even leary of
Speaker 5: the media, and they may have been as well. Tell
Speaker 5: us about that.
Speaker 2: Well, I can't say it was, you know the same
Speaker 2: for everybody. It's hard to say, I mean Vanessa Gay
Speaker 2: for example, I think she was more willing to tell
Speaker 2: her story. I mean, it was kind of a cathartic
Speaker 2: experience for her. But initially, actually, as it happened, my
Speaker 2: previous film was screening and I invited her to a
Speaker 2: screening of that, and so she actually met the subject
Speaker 2: of my last documentary and they had conversation. So that
Speaker 2: was really fortuitous, and they kind of hit it off,
Speaker 2: and that was kind of an amazing experience to have,
Speaker 2: you know, the subject of my past film talking to
Speaker 2: potentially the subject of my new film. And I mean,
Speaker 2: and she is just a people person, and you know,
Speaker 2: I kind of hit it off with her just personally.
Speaker 2: I mean, she has a great sense of humor, and
Speaker 2: so I think, you know that that may have had
Speaker 2: something to do with it. And initially I did interview
Speaker 2: her first with an interview I didn't use uh, but
Speaker 2: I actually we talked all about her background and you know,
Speaker 2: nothing about actually what happened in the house. And at
Speaker 2: the time, to be honest with you, I was kind
Speaker 2: of shy about asking about the how she had given
Speaker 2: this really powerful testimony in Core, which you see in
Speaker 2: the film, and I thought well, I don't want to
Speaker 2: drag her through that again. I mean, I have to say,
Speaker 2: this is not something I enjoyed doing, you know, dragging
Speaker 2: someone having them relive, you know, what happened in there,
Speaker 2: and to relive all the horrors. So, you know, I
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time on you know, I wanted
Speaker 2: to know what she was like as a person growing up,
Speaker 2: and so we spent a lot of time on that initially,
Speaker 2: but then I realized, wow, I really do have to
Speaker 2: talk about what happened. So then later we we kind
Speaker 2: of redid the whole thing. And so these interviews, they
Speaker 2: were long, and again I didn't just get right into hey,
Speaker 2: you know what happened. That was usually after a couple hours.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it wasn't it wasn't easy, and it wasn't
Speaker 2: something they just agreed to right away. Usually wouldn't meet
Speaker 2: with them first. But yeah, I mean I can't tell you.
Speaker 2: It's not like I have some some men formula.
Speaker 5: And you wouldn't give it to me anyway.
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, I really don't know. I mean I
Speaker 2: didn't make any assumptions that they would want to do it.
Speaker 2: You know, I just told them what the film was
Speaker 2: about and it's about humanizing the victims and telling their
Speaker 2: story and not because you do see in most films
Speaker 2: that deal will deal with a serial killer, the victims
Speaker 2: are just kind of the tools. I mean that they're
Speaker 2: just sort of thrown in there like okay, yeah, here
Speaker 2: was his first victim, and you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah. What I wanted to say too, is that you
Speaker 5: in you do have that one interview with her, another interview,
Speaker 5: another interview, then you show the powerful court testimony and
Speaker 5: then it's juxtaposed or you cut to your interview which
Speaker 5: deals with the same thing, and then again her very
Speaker 5: very powerful DEMONI and her powerful testimony in this film.
Speaker 5: I also wanted to just tell people that are trying
Speaker 5: to visualize this as well, is that this Vanessa Gay
Speaker 5: and other victims in this despite what you might think
Speaker 5: when you you know, when you picture these people in
Speaker 5: your mind, I want you to tell us about Vanessa
Speaker 5: Gay as well, in terms of what she looks like,
Speaker 5: by what you might think, despite all this background, and
Speaker 5: then this film is quite a bit about not to
Speaker 5: say that it's only about that, but it is quite
Speaker 5: a bit about drug addiction, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is well to your first question. Yeah, Vanessa
Speaker 2: is a really effervescent, kind of bubbly person like when
Speaker 2: you first meet her. In fact, I didn't I specifically
Speaker 2: did not label the women, you know, when you id
Speaker 2: them and lower. I just put her name. I didn't
Speaker 2: say survivor or victim because I don't even well kind
Speaker 2: of giving it away. But I don't want you to
Speaker 2: know immediately who they are. I just want you to
Speaker 2: kind of see them on their own terms. And so, yeah,
Speaker 2: she and Latundra Billups are two women. They're they're really
Speaker 2: well spoken. You know, Latundra comes off as kind of
Speaker 2: a business woman, maybe you know again, someone you might
Speaker 2: want to chat with over, you know, with over a
Speaker 2: cup of coffee, have a conversation. So and and you know,
Speaker 2: you asked me about kind of what I learned from this,
Speaker 2: because I had a picture in my head of what
Speaker 2: a crack addict was. I mean, most these women were
Speaker 2: lured in with the promise of crack to Sowell's house.
Speaker 2: So I kind of had this picture of, you know,
Speaker 2: these women with their teeth falling out, hair falling out
Speaker 2: and skinny, and so you know, they were anything. But
Speaker 2: I mean, of course that it does affect a lot
Speaker 2: of the women that way, but they had been kind
Speaker 2: of spared the physical ravages of this addiction or so,
Speaker 2: so yeah, it's not always what you think. And again,
Speaker 2: and that's how I want the audience to view them
Speaker 2: as well. You know, these could be my neighbors people
Speaker 2: I know, and I think, actually, I mean, it's interesting
Speaker 2: because back then the whole heroin addiction or epidemic hadn't
Speaker 2: really hit. And so I think now, you know, middle
Speaker 2: upper classes people are kind of realizing, yeah, this stuff
Speaker 2: isn't just something that happens in urban neighborhoods or in
Speaker 2: poor neighborhoods. This could happen to me or to my friends.
Speaker 2: So I may be digressing, so feel free to stop me.
Speaker 5: You talk about as well in your show, and then
Speaker 5: you have a very dramatic and very interesting subject here.
Speaker 5: Pastor Larry Harris a very interesting character, and he talks
Speaker 5: about Mount Pleasant then in the beginning, or when he
Speaker 5: was young. And now when you were making this film,
Speaker 5: Mount Pleasant is where all of this happened. As you
Speaker 5: show and as you tell through this film, tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about Mount Pleasant and Pastor Larry Harris.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, it's ironic that the place where this happened
Speaker 2: is called Mount Pleasant. I mean it's a sad irony,
Speaker 2: but in fact it was a very pleasant place to live.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's been kind of an immigrant neighborhood,
Speaker 2: but then for a very long time a solid working
Speaker 2: class black, you know, mostly black neighborhood up until maybe
Speaker 2: the early eighties, and then again when the crack epidemic
Speaker 2: hit and you know, it just it just got destroyed.
Speaker 2: So it's in it even now. It's it's pretty sad
Speaker 2: when you drive around and you see these cute little houses,
Speaker 2: the little porches, and yeah, people talked about how they
Speaker 2: leave their doors unlocked at night, and all the little
Speaker 2: stores and breakfast places and just the sense of community.
Speaker 2: So you know it just like it kind of kills
Speaker 2: me to see that. And then it's you know, it's
Speaker 2: right next door to Shaker Heights, which again is one
Speaker 2: of the more affluent neighborhoods, and it's it's kind of
Speaker 2: amazing how you can just kind of go around a
Speaker 2: corner and feel like you've dropped off the edge of
Speaker 2: the earth. So so Pastor Larry his church is right
Speaker 2: in Mount Pleasant, and again, you know, I couldn't put
Speaker 2: a lot in the film, but he talked about how, yeah,
Speaker 2: the the people that come to the church were mostly
Speaker 2: from the neighborhood, but now they you know, they've moved
Speaker 2: out and a lot of them drive in just from
Speaker 2: the suburbs and so, uh so, yeah, even the church,
Speaker 2: and he admits this in the film, there's kind of
Speaker 2: a schism or not a schism, but the church is
Speaker 2: maybe not as involved with the community around it as
Speaker 2: much as it could. And uh so, I think he
Speaker 2: kind of admits some of his failures as a as
Speaker 2: a church to really kind of embrace these women that
Speaker 2: are addicted to crack and oh and really kind of
Speaker 2: give them their full love and support. And you'll see
Speaker 2: that in other parts of the film where there's this
Speaker 2: really harrowing description that Vanessa talks about after she escapes
Speaker 2: from the house that was on a Sunday and then
Speaker 2: there were these church people and they just kind of
Speaker 2: looked away. So yes, but Pastor Larry makes some very
Speaker 2: powerful statements in the films.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, you have a character that really stands out at first,
Speaker 5: you sympathize with them to a certain degrees. Obviously, somebody
Speaker 5: immigrated to America and he is in this new transformed
Speaker 5: neighborhood in Mount Pleasant across from Anthony Soul's home and
Speaker 5: raised sausages at the corner and all of this. Mayhem
Speaker 5: goes on in that neighborhood and his name's Assad and
Speaker 5: he's a store owner, and you show his background and
Speaker 5: he talks about these two young crackheads and his brother
Speaker 5: tell us about this character, and that first interview, it's
Speaker 5: like you do, do the interview and then continue later
Speaker 5: and later it becomes more and more powerful. Tell us
Speaker 5: about this very very interesting character that you dug up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well he is, you know, the Arab store or
Speaker 2: corner store owner. And you know, you see that in
Speaker 2: a lot of these poor black neighborhoods there's usually a
Speaker 2: corner store. And you know, originally he talks about his
Speaker 2: brother getting shot and killed because these these two I
Speaker 2: don't know if it was over some drug deal or
Speaker 2: you know what exactly happened, but he was held up
Speaker 2: and shot, and so yes, you do feel sympathy for him.
Speaker 2: And you know, he talks again about just how he
Speaker 2: and his wife and family have to work in this
Speaker 2: really dangerous environment. And he even again it's not in
Speaker 2: the interview, but he even you know, kind of is
Speaker 2: nice to some of the kids that come in and
Speaker 2: gives them candy and so so, yeah, you kind of
Speaker 2: feel for him. But then I don't know if I
Speaker 2: should be giving away the whole story. But then later
Speaker 2: you learn some of his real views about how he
Speaker 2: feels about the women who were so Well's victims, and
Speaker 2: it is it is kind of shocking, but you kind
Speaker 2: of have to put it in context as well, because
Speaker 2: he reflects I think what many people in society think
Speaker 2: of these women that were addicted to crack, and it
Speaker 2: just would be afraid to say in front of a
Speaker 2: camera or would know better. So I guess that's what
Speaker 2: I have to say about him.
Speaker 5: It's amazing though he has do You ask him in
Speaker 5: these interviews about his impressions of him, and he said,
Speaker 5: you know, I had you know, I hate to give
Speaker 5: this away, but this is powerful. He says, I had
Speaker 5: a really good feeling about this Anthony soul. He seemed
Speaker 5: like a high class guy, right right, you know, And
Speaker 5: then yeah, we also get and I know that you
Speaker 5: have obviously a focus in this and and sort of
Speaker 5: a perspective for this documentary. So you take information, you
Speaker 5: have short clips of the police and very again I
Speaker 5: think interesting, fascinating and disturbing, actually police officers eating bags
Speaker 5: of potato chips talking to Nancy Soul. Tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit about your impression and what you were trying
Speaker 5: to convey or what you thought was conveyed with these
Speaker 5: short clips.
Speaker 2: I guess I wanted to. I wanted this on the
Speaker 2: surface to feel like kind of a crime thriller or
Speaker 2: I don't know, just a regular crime documentary where you're
Speaker 2: kind of trying to figure out, Hey, what happened, what
Speaker 2: did so well? Do you know, is he gonna tell
Speaker 2: us the identity of these women? So I threaded the
Speaker 2: I used the interrogation footage that the police had and
Speaker 2: kind of threaded that throughout the film. But but you know,
Speaker 2: you kind of learn that he's just playing with them.
Speaker 2: He's almost pretending to be as if someone who's insane,
Speaker 2: and so that's pretty much how I used it. And
Speaker 2: you're kind of asking me before the interview, you know,
Speaker 2: did I try to interview so Well? And in fact
Speaker 2: I didn't, and I knew Robert had had interviewed him
Speaker 2: and written to him, But I think to do that
Speaker 2: would have just made him seem more like a regular guy.
Speaker 2: And again the focus was really on the women, and
Speaker 2: I just don't think it would have really added anything.
Speaker 2: So here he's kind of just this unpleasant, cipher like individual.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I guess that was more sort of an
Speaker 2: intuitive to use that material the way I did.
Speaker 5: You have, as I mentioned before, you opened the film
Speaker 5: with Melvit Sockwell, and that's the first victim, and that's
Speaker 5: where she escaped. And what happened is he got fifteen
Speaker 5: years and he was released and he came to Imperial Avenue,
Speaker 5: the infamous address. You have access to and gained access
Speaker 5: I should say, not had you gain access to Latundra
Speaker 5: Leila Billups you have access in it? Okay, thank you.
Speaker 5: And you had Crystal Dozier's son. You had a sad
Speaker 5: Taya like we mentioned, a store owner. You had survivor
Speaker 5: again incredible, Gladys Wade. You had Anthony Soul's sister, Tresa Garrison.
Speaker 5: And then you have Lussanda Landa Sanda Losande Okay, sorry,
Speaker 5: Long's mother you have, and you have some Vanessa Gate
Speaker 5: as we mentioned, and you have pastor Larry Harris. You
Speaker 5: also have this is incredible too, is this Lloyd Roosevelt,
Speaker 5: former sex offender, just tell us a little bit about this.
Speaker 5: This is not given too much away. This is interesting footage.
Speaker 2: Which one now Roosevello. Yeah, actually that's someone that Robert
Speaker 2: was really helpful in tracking down. In fact, he had
Speaker 2: not registered. You know, you're supposed to register if you're
Speaker 2: a sex offender anytime you move, and he hadn't, so
Speaker 2: we couldn't find him. And it involved you know, going
Speaker 2: around to all these former residencies, asking neighbors, winding up
Speaker 2: at some you know, a little dive bar and slipping
Speaker 2: a note to the owner because he supposedly came in there.
Speaker 2: I mean, how we actually you know, got to him
Speaker 2: was kind of amazing. But yeah, he tells a story
Speaker 2: of how, you know, he was so Well cellmate, and
Speaker 2: you know, they offer these programs for sexual offenders, and
Speaker 2: so Well would not admit to being a sexual offender,
Speaker 2: so he never got any of the you know that
Speaker 2: I guess went through any of these programs that are
Speaker 2: supposed to help you cope and real life and admit
Speaker 2: your problems. And so when so Well got out, he
Speaker 2: was deemed you know, of low risk. So only because
Speaker 2: he wouldn't admit that he was sexual predator, which it
Speaker 2: sounds ridiculous, but that's sort of another way. He kind of,
Speaker 2: you know, fell through the cracks.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 2: You know, maybe people weren't paying as much authorities weren't
Speaker 2: paying as much attention to him. I don't know. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: Roosevelt talks about that, and Roosevelt Lloyd was a sex
Speaker 2: offender himself. Yeah, which I mentioned.
Speaker 5: Sure certainly everybody wanted to be wanted to cooperate on
Speaker 5: this incredible One of the most powerful things in this
Speaker 5: incredibly powerful film is Gladys Wade and the response from
Speaker 5: the police. And of course you mentioned how crucial this
Speaker 5: is because six more women are killed after this. So
Speaker 5: this premise that you're presenting is is super reinforced by
Speaker 5: Gladys Wade. Tell us a little just a little bit
Speaker 5: about Gladys Wade.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now that is probably one of the most shocking stories,
Speaker 2: just on the surface. So Gladys was attacked by Sowell
Speaker 2: and she met she managed just incredible, you know, to escape,
Speaker 2: and she escaped down the stairs, cut her hand on
Speaker 2: the glass and she got out. And this part is
Speaker 2: not even in the film, but she she actually went
Speaker 2: to It wasn't the corner story we're talking about before,
Speaker 2: but another store, she ran over there and asked them
Speaker 2: to call the police, and they said, oh, get out
Speaker 2: your your hand. You know, you're bleeding on the floor,
Speaker 2: if you can believe that. And then Sowell is even
Speaker 2: standing right out there while this was going on, and
Speaker 2: you know, people and then he said she stole money
Speaker 2: from him. People believed him. And but at any rate,
Speaker 2: finally I think she she ran from the scene and
Speaker 2: she flagged down some police, and they actually did their job.
Speaker 2: They came and they collected evidence. They found, you know,
Speaker 2: the blood. You know, obviously they must not have gone
Speaker 2: all the way into the house. But oh no, they did,
Speaker 2: that's right. They rested so well. So they did everything
Speaker 2: they were supposed to do. They treated her well, you know,
Speaker 2: she got treated for her wounds. And and then ultimately,
Speaker 2: when it went to I guess this it was an
Speaker 2: assistant prosecutor said, uh, you know, obviously she had a background,
Speaker 2: of course, because she'd been on drugs and there had
Speaker 2: been some violence in her background. And so they the
Speaker 2: prosecutor deemed her case. They said she was not a
Speaker 2: credible witness and decided there was not enough evidence to
Speaker 2: continue investigating the case and so as she says, they
Speaker 2: took his word over hers and dropped the case. And
Speaker 2: then after that six women were murdered by so well. So,
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the pride, the most shocking part of
Speaker 2: this whole story. And in fact, recently I think it
Speaker 2: went to this case went to the the Supreme Court,
Speaker 2: but they've decided that the families do in fact have
Speaker 2: a right to sue the city over this.
Speaker 5: Wow. Yeah, you talk about Latundra Billups or you have
Speaker 5: an interview with or a few interviews with Latundra Billups Leila,
Speaker 5: And this is again incredibly powerful too because in the
Speaker 5: later interview she talks about her I mean, really we're
Speaker 5: talking on not exaggerating brush with death and how exactly
Speaker 5: she did it. I've read a lot of things. This
Speaker 5: is more than I've ever read exactly what she said
Speaker 5: to convince this guy. So tell us just not to
Speaker 5: give it away too much away, but just tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about that interview with Latundra Billups and
Speaker 5: her incredible brush with death.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know again, I think some of the women
Speaker 2: that got away just had a talent for talking themselves
Speaker 2: out of it or sort of acting as if you know,
Speaker 2: I mean Latundra billups, I mean she blacked out, she
Speaker 2: was nearly choked to death and then amazingly woke up.
Speaker 2: And she describes her shock at kind of looking at
Speaker 2: so well, he was shocked to see that she was
Speaker 2: still alive. And uh, and again I think she she
Speaker 2: just sort of acted like, oh no, you know, no
Speaker 2: big deals if she didn't remember, and you know, pretended
Speaker 2: to be all upset over her shirt that was ripped,
Speaker 2: and then went on about, oh, you know, that was
Speaker 2: my mother's shirt, and just kind of diverted the attention
Speaker 2: and managed to talk her way out of the house,
Speaker 2: you know, just acting pissed off at him. And so
Speaker 2: that's just an amazing story because you have kind of
Speaker 2: what she sang on the outside and then what's going
Speaker 2: on you know inside. And I think the same with Vanessa.
Speaker 2: It's a very similar kind of story, you know, how
Speaker 2: they sort of kept their composure.
Speaker 5: Yeah, similarity. The similarity was that it looked like and
Speaker 5: you you could I don't I just don't want to
Speaker 5: underestimate or downplay how crucial it was both of them,
Speaker 5: and you could see that that probably is a part
Speaker 5: of their transformation from this to the people to recover
Speaker 5: psychologically from this is amazing. So it's way beyond survivor.
Speaker 5: But both of those people had to talk him into
Speaker 5: not killing them, they thought, because that's the kind of language.
Speaker 5: When Lidundra woke up and he was watching her, he said, Oh,
Speaker 5: I gotta kill you and I got to kill myself.
Speaker 5: You are certainly going to go to the cops. And
Speaker 5: she had to really do an acting performance of her life,
Speaker 5: didn't she.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 5: Now you have these other interviews with Crystal Dozier, another victim,
Speaker 5: obviously Crystal Dozier's son, and again a lot of these
Speaker 5: interviews really explain the personal tool on the families. Tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about that interview with Crystal dozier son.
Speaker 2: Okay, so Crystal Doser was one of the victims, and
Speaker 2: so her son, Anthony Doser describes, you know, what it
Speaker 2: was like to grow up with his mom on on
Speaker 2: crack and often how he and his younger sister, who
Speaker 2: was kind of protecting, just didn't have enough to eat,
Speaker 2: and you know, so they would they would sometimes live
Speaker 2: off of teaspoons of peanut butter and then the horror
Speaker 2: of this was that when he was taken out of
Speaker 2: his mother's house, that even his grandmother was addicted to crack.
Speaker 2: And you know, that's one thing I learned. I originally thought, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I knew about the crack epidemic, and but
Speaker 2: I didn't. And I thought that these women that had
Speaker 2: been the victims were maybe the one person in the
Speaker 2: family that had been addicted to crack. But the more
Speaker 2: interviews I did, I realized, you know, their whole families
Speaker 2: addicted to this stuff, just I mean, almost like a
Speaker 2: lost generation or two generations of people. And so Anthony Doser, yeah,
Speaker 2: he so he talks about yeah, and you know, his
Speaker 2: grandmother was on crack as well, and he has a
Speaker 2: lot of mixed feelings about his mother, which you can imagine,
Speaker 2: you know, because he kind of says, well, she wasn't
Speaker 2: he didn't call her on Mother's Day because she wasn't
Speaker 2: really his mother, you know, he hadn't acted like a
Speaker 2: mother and it's not in the film. But he was
Speaker 2: very lucky in that he was taken in by a
Speaker 2: foster dad who I met, who was just a really
Speaker 2: warm and caring person. That didn't happen till he was
Speaker 2: a teenager, but I think that that really saved his life.
Speaker 2: And it's also interesting because at one point he himself
Speaker 2: was thinking of becoming a police officer and was doing
Speaker 2: some of the training. So he even had some sympathy
Speaker 2: for some of the police officers and you know, why
Speaker 2: they couldn't find these missing women or why they didn't
Speaker 2: take some of the reports seriously. Though ultimately he was definitely,
Speaker 2: you know, really critical, and that's that's another part of
Speaker 2: the film, about how some of the families had reported
Speaker 2: their loved ones missing, but that the police didn't take
Speaker 2: it seriously or won't even issue a missing person's report.
Speaker 2: So they said, well, she's an adult, you know, she'll
Speaker 2: come back when she wants to. So his feelings about
Speaker 2: his mother are just very conflicted, and it makes makes
Speaker 2: a really kind of interesting character in this film.
Speaker 5: He seemed to have a lot of sympathy for his
Speaker 5: mother that he really didn't ever get to know, right,
Speaker 5: So it was really sad to hear that he seemed
Speaker 5: to have a comprehension of his mother's situation and their relationship,
Speaker 5: but after the fact, much after the fact, Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2: He did get to see her in her sober moments
Speaker 2: and could kind of see the person or the mother
Speaker 2: that she could have been.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and he actually knew that that. He was convinced
Speaker 5: from the information that he had heard that she wanted
Speaker 5: to be clean, and it was evidenced by her being around.
Speaker 5: She wasn't like, she wasn't around, and so when she
Speaker 5: did go missing, it wasn't a matter of it took
Speaker 5: too long. Every other people in the family also reported
Speaker 5: her missing, as you re.
Speaker 2: Right, right, Yeah, I mean it's true a lot of
Speaker 2: these women would go missing, but they would still call,
Speaker 2: they'd still come by after a while, So I think
Speaker 2: I think that's where you know, a lot of the
Speaker 2: families had difficulty conveying this to the police that yes,
Speaker 2: she is on crack, but she still calls, she still
Speaker 2: comes by. You know, she doesn't disappear for a year
Speaker 2: half a year, So yes, and yeah, you know, it's
Speaker 2: I think again, it's hard for people to comprehend. But
Speaker 2: when this drug addiction gets a hold of people, it
Speaker 2: just it just changes them. So yes, they may be,
Speaker 2: you know, in their heart of hearts, they're a family person,
Speaker 2: but they still kind of have to go out there
Speaker 2: and get that drug.
Speaker 5: So yeah, you have very powerful footage of Vanessa Gee
Speaker 5: and again very similar in that this is crucial. You know,
Speaker 5: this is addition to anybody that's read anything as these peoples,
Speaker 5: these victims brush like I say, near brush with death.
Speaker 5: And again we won't give it away, but her it's
Speaker 5: amazing that we have her looking and sounding that together
Speaker 5: after what she experienced, because even though these other people
Speaker 5: had this brush with death, this woman had even more
Speaker 5: in terms of things to wipe out of her mind
Speaker 5: that she saw. Just tell us a little bit about
Speaker 5: how she escaped from this, and again you provide this
Speaker 5: footage for the trial and the interview. Tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit about Vanessa Gay and this very powerful part
Speaker 5: of the film.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if you want me to give
Speaker 2: that part away to you about what she saw when
Speaker 2: she left the house, but yeah, I would say she
Speaker 2: saw what you could only be described as something you'd
Speaker 2: see in a horror film. I mean, really, just so
Speaker 2: you know, I can't tell you. I just think she's
Speaker 2: a really resilient person. You know, she has other interest
Speaker 2: beyond the horrors of what happened to her. And she's
Speaker 2: again really a people person, and I think you know
Speaker 2: she has strong relationships with her friends and family, and
Speaker 2: I think that that's helped her to a large extent
Speaker 2: to try to get past this. Though she's myth. You know,
Speaker 2: you can never get past something like this. But I mean,
Speaker 2: I think she just has a real love of life
Speaker 2: and that's how she's been able to cope with this.
Speaker 2: So and you know, I can't say, oh, she's just
Speaker 2: I'm sure she would never admit that she's perfectly okay,
Speaker 2: but you know, she moves on and in fact, right now,
Speaker 2: I know she's she's actually working for a victim's advocacy
Speaker 2: group and so she really finds that work fulfilling. And
Speaker 2: so you know, she she's just like anyone else she sees.
Speaker 2: You know, she's living her life.
Speaker 5: So you have a very amazing interview, and especially that
Speaker 5: she agreed to an interview with This is Tresa Garrison,
Speaker 5: Anthony Soul's sister. What does she speak to in the
Speaker 5: interviews that you have with her? Ah?
Speaker 2: Well, I did feel, as I said, I wasn't focusing
Speaker 2: on so well, but I felt I kind of needed
Speaker 2: to give a little background to kind of lead you
Speaker 2: up to this. So you know that there's you know,
Speaker 2: you know something about him so she was his sister,
Speaker 2: and yeah, she paints a pretty scary picture of him,
Speaker 2: you know, even when he's a child, and she describes
Speaker 2: him as a mean child and so uh and then
Speaker 2: she also describes that and I think what's what's interesting
Speaker 2: about this is that she is as just as shocked.
Speaker 2: I mean, she knew he had problems, and but that
Speaker 2: she's really just as shocked by what happened is as
Speaker 2: we are, you know, being his sister.
Speaker 5: But you include you include the footage where he calls
Speaker 5: her on the run and he's he's on the run
Speaker 5: and they find Yeah. Yeah, so it's amazing what he
Speaker 5: says to her. And again we won't give that way,
Speaker 5: we give those for people the word Well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to give it away because I
Speaker 2: was actually just as shocked when I was interviewing her
Speaker 2: that she revealed this. But I again, I don't want
Speaker 2: to give away the whole whole film, but I I
Speaker 2: was kind of Actually you can kind of see the
Speaker 2: person behind the camera looks a little unprepared to kind
Speaker 2: of adjust the camera suddenly when she makes the statement.
Speaker 2: So but yeah, you'll have to just watch the film.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just it's it's amazing. That's all I can
Speaker 5: say is that just as the film slowly develops and
Speaker 5: moves forward, just more and more to ponder and and
Speaker 5: there's more and more revealed. What we didn't mention too
Speaker 5: is that again everyone knows the story that there was
Speaker 5: this incredible smell in the neighborhood, so much that raised
Speaker 5: sausage that was at the corner was forced to put
Speaker 5: expensive modification environmental controls to be able to deal with
Speaker 5: that smell, and yet the smell persisted. And do you
Speaker 5: have footage with very powerful footage of Asad the store
Speaker 5: owner talking about smell and garbage bags and so incredible
Speaker 5: that this could go on, like you say, and we
Speaker 5: did in the beginning of this, that this could go
Speaker 5: on for so long.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean again, it is a bit of irony
Speaker 2: that you would have. I mean, people make a joke
Speaker 2: of it, but yeah, yeah, you would have a sausage
Speaker 2: factory right next door to so old house. But you know,
Speaker 2: just to people know, this was a family owned business.
Speaker 2: So the owner Race Sausage, you know, they were like
Speaker 2: the first owners of or African American owners of a
Speaker 2: sausage business. And they actually employed ex offenders and so
Speaker 2: they were probably one of the strengths of the community.
Speaker 2: Again there, I did do some interviews which were not
Speaker 2: included in the film, but you know, got to know them.
Speaker 2: And so when the smell of the dead bodies first
Speaker 2: became noticeable, of course neighbors complained and the health department
Speaker 2: was sent out, and the first thing they looked at,
Speaker 2: of course, was the sausage company. And then you know,
Speaker 2: they made them go through all these costly modifications, I
Speaker 2: mean totally, like thirty thousand dollars redoing their sewage system
Speaker 2: and you know, installing all kinds of things, and I
Speaker 2: mean again, it just sounded like a nightmare from their
Speaker 2: perspective because they could barely afford to do this. And
Speaker 2: then after all was said and done, you know, the
Speaker 2: place is spotless, and they smelling the smell and yeah,
Speaker 2: and then even they again it's not in the film,
Speaker 2: but they described so well as kind of like he was.
Speaker 2: They thought of him as the stable and reliable neighbor
Speaker 2: because they had some cop some pipes or copper pipes
Speaker 2: or siding on their house or on their factory that
Speaker 2: was stolen. And you know, he said, oh well, I'll
Speaker 2: keep an eye out you know, so, and I believe
Speaker 2: actually he had he had stolen some of this, so so, yeah,
Speaker 2: it just damaged them and then obviously but you know,
Speaker 2: prevented them from investigating what was really going along. And
Speaker 2: then you know, some of the people thought it was
Speaker 2: coming from a sod taia store because it smells. Being
Speaker 2: what they were, you know, it depended on what direction
Speaker 2: the the air, I mean, the wind was blowing, so
Speaker 2: he couldn't really tell. So they you know, people would
Speaker 2: accuse him of you dirty Arab and so he would
Speaker 2: get comments like that, and his you know, his wife
Speaker 2: got too sick from the smell to work there. But yeah,
Speaker 2: even he thought, well, it can't be the sausage. It's
Speaker 2: just so clean. So just nobody, nobody knew where it
Speaker 2: was coming from. So I mean, yes, in retrospect, you
Speaker 2: could blame the health department. I don't know, you know,
Speaker 2: should they know what a dead body smells like? It's
Speaker 2: but they're just such odd circumstances in this case.
Speaker 5: You do talk about this though, that that when these
Speaker 5: bodies were discovered in two thousand and nine, up to
Speaker 5: that point, those eleven women, there was no investigation by
Speaker 5: police of those level women until that two thousand and nine,
Speaker 5: and then Anthony Soul promised to help authorities identify those victims.
Speaker 5: And yet, as you put in this, that didn't happen,
Speaker 5: did it?
Speaker 2: Right? So what is the the question or the.
Speaker 5: I'm just saying, I'm just making a statement. But you
Speaker 5: also have that the result of all of this, this
Speaker 5: was a death penalty case. You show the very powerful
Speaker 5: reaction in court. You have that footage included, you have
Speaker 5: we mentioned Vanessa Gay at trial talking about this incredible
Speaker 5: horror story that she witnessed. But you show the reaction
Speaker 5: of Anthony Soul and it seems to be no reaction
Speaker 5: when she's making these claims and her testimony and she's hysterical.
Speaker 5: But the death penalty gets his reaction, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean he no, he's just stony faced.
Speaker 2: And I and actually that he acted rather peculiarly. Sure
Speaker 2: during the death pen I mean he kind of bows
Speaker 2: to the audience. There's this one place and it's again
Speaker 2: not in the film, where his one of his sisters
Speaker 2: is talking or one of his family members about how
Speaker 2: they love him or something and he cries a bit.
Speaker 2: But yeah, any any kind of emotion is for himself
Speaker 2: and nobody else. So yeah, and I don't know if
Speaker 2: you know lawyers told him not to react. That's very possible,
Speaker 2: but but yeah, I mean you can't expect him to
Speaker 2: react as if he did something, because that would be
Speaker 2: admitting it. And yeah, as we discussed earlier, he never
Speaker 2: helps the police with anything and to this day is
Speaker 2: never admitted that he killed any of the women's.
Speaker 5: And you have that on tape as well. It's interesting
Speaker 5: with the police where he just he pretends he can't remember.
Speaker 5: It's a cloud. He is not cooperative at all. I
Speaker 5: think we need to say that mentioned as you do
Speaker 5: the all the victims, Melda Hunter and Turner, Crystal Dozier,
Speaker 5: a La Chandra Long, Michelle Mason, Nancy Cobbs, Janice Webb,
Speaker 5: to Shanna Culver, Fealacia Fortson, Tanya Carmichael, Kim Smith. This
Speaker 5: film was you wrote this with someone else as well?
Speaker 5: Could you tell us Anell's bang Girder. Could you tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about his contribution to this and
Speaker 5: that a little bit of that writing process.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's it's not really writing.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's now something that documentary filmmakers will put
Speaker 2: in when they've now the director and the editor of
Speaker 2: you in a you're writing it, but you're really editing
Speaker 2: it and making decisions about what to put in and where.
Speaker 2: So so actually we both agreed Nels and I to
Speaker 2: not use that credit, but once I entered it in IMDb,
Speaker 2: there it was. But still, I mean, there is a
Speaker 2: storytelling process going on, and Nell's is just a brilliant editor.
Speaker 2: His one of the last documentaries he edited, called Camera Person,
Speaker 2: was nominated for an Academy Award. And I have to say,
Speaker 2: you know, I made a rough cut myself, which was
Speaker 2: kind of pedestrian. I mean, it kind of proceeded chronologically
Speaker 2: told the story, but it wasn't really working the way
Speaker 2: it should. And he just he grabbed that material and
Speaker 2: in two weeks had just like a really powerful opening.
Speaker 2: So and I think it's also a matter of you know,
Speaker 2: just just using there was so much material, but it's
Speaker 2: just a matter of using just enough to tell the
Speaker 2: story and for us to feel the emotion of the scene.
Speaker 2: And yeah, he just has kind of the magic touch.
Speaker 2: So I would, in fact watch any film that Nels
Speaker 2: Bangerterer has put his editing hands on. It's just it
Speaker 2: was just a real joy to work with him.
Speaker 5: Yes, it's seventy five minute film and it really does
Speaker 5: move despite people sitting and being interviewed. But just incredible
Speaker 5: way put this together and also very very effective music,
Speaker 5: very effective. Thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Actually my composer too, is fabulous, Simoni Juliani, who I
Speaker 2: used for my previous film Facing Forward again. You know,
Speaker 2: just getting the editing the music to me is really
Speaker 2: it's not just something you just do at the end.
Speaker 2: It's everything.
Speaker 5: So yes, I want to applaud you for this. It's incredible.
Speaker 5: It's been very careful, very powerful, very dramatic, very explorative.
Speaker 5: I don't know anymore superlatives I can give you except
Speaker 5: this is a must see. This is unseen true crime
Speaker 5: documentary about a Cleveland serial killer and the women he
Speaker 5: prayed on. A fantastic job. Thank you very much, Laura Paglin.
Speaker 5: For those that might want to see this, to give
Speaker 5: us information, maybe a Facebook page, a website, or how
Speaker 5: they could get to see.
Speaker 2: Unseen, Okay, hopefully you can write the sun your your website,
Speaker 2: but it's the The website is www Unseen documentary dot
Speaker 2: com and there you'll find all the links to iTunes
Speaker 2: and Amazon and the other platforms. At one point I
Speaker 2: got up to number two on iTunes, So if people
Speaker 2: can watch it on that that would be marvelous because
Speaker 2: we want to keep it up there and have people
Speaker 2: recognize the film.
Speaker 5: Absolutely well. Thank you very much, Laura Paglin. It has
Speaker 5: been a pleasure. Thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 5: talking about Unseen.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, thanks for having me.
Speaker 5: You have a great evening you too. Good Night.