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We're promitted term condition sety deals. 42 00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:15.360 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 43 00:02:15.479 --> 00:02:18.479 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 44 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:25.840 written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 45 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:29.560 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 46 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:34.159 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 47 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.080 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 48 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:52.000 Good Evening. This January, film Rise released the chilling true 49 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:57.360 crime documentary Unseen, from award winning director and producer Laura Paglan. 50 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:01.039 For two years, women had been disappearing from Mount Pleasant, 51 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:05.879 a poverty stricken African American neighborhood in Cleveland, with little 52 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:10.680 investigation from police and city officials. Then, in two thousand 53 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:13.520 and nine, a reported rape led Cleveland police to a 54 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:18.520 grisly discovery the bodies of eleven women decomposing in the 55 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:23.199 house and yard of known sex offender Anthony Soul. How 56 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:25.479 was it that a serial killer was able to operate 57 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:30.120 virtually in plain sight for two years? Told in riveting 58 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:33.120 detail by the women who were able to escape Soul's 59 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:38.319 deadly clutches, Unseen draws viewers into a world where marginalized 60 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:42.280 women plagued by drug use, shunned by society, and dismissed 61 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:46.240 by the police, become easy prey for a predatory monster. 62 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:50.879 Unseen questions not only the police failures in this case, 63 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:54.280 but also why Soul's neighbors turned a blind eye to 64 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:59.960 his bizarre activities. Through intimate, revealing interviews, Paglin gives voice 65 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:04.000 to Soul's victims, allowing them to tell their stories, showing 66 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:06.159 us how the attempt to come to grips with their 67 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:11.879 horrific experiences. Unseen was in an official selection at Cleveland 68 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:16.519 International Film Festival and doc New York City. It was 69 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:19.920 also a contender for the Social Impact Award at Greenwich 70 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:25.319 International Film Festival and Documentary Award nominee at Portland Film Festival. 71 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:29.600 Unseen acts as a haunting indictment of a police force 72 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:34.319 that failed its citizens. The subject of our program this 73 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:38.639 evening is Unseen, a true crime documentary about a Cleveland 74 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:42.240 serial killer and the women he prayed on with my 75 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:47.519 special guest producer and director and co writer Laura Paglin. 76 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:49.800 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 77 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:56.720 green to this interview. Laura Paglin, thank you, thank you 78 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:04.120 very much. Incredible Unseen about Anthony Soul. Tell us when 79 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:08.959 this was released, you'd say, it just released. To tell 80 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.680 us how it's available, and tell us when it was released, 81 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:14.879 and just tell us a little bit about these film 82 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:17.160 festivals that it was premiered at. 83 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.199 Okay, well, it's kind of a long process because the 84 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:26.319 film was you might say, released in film festivals, started 85 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:31.360 exhibiting at film festivals in twenty sixteen. However, I didn't 86 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:36.079 secure distribution until twenty eighteen with film Rise. So now 87 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:41.959 people can watch it on iTunes and Amazon. And I'm sorry, 88 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:43.720 I forgot your other question. 89 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:46.839 You know, I just want to see where it was 90 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:50.519 available and that it is as of we mentioned in 91 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:53.360 the introduction as of this January, So the end of 92 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:57.800 January it's available. Now it is. Yes, Now, I just 93 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:02.759 looked basically at just your IMD background, So tell us 94 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:07.879 it doesn't look like from that background that you'd be 95 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:10.839 interested in something like this. So tell us how you 96 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:13.920 came to do this film, why you wanted to do 97 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.720 this film, what you thought you might be able to 98 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:19.800 say with this film. Tell us a little bit about 99 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:22.680 why you wanted to do this film Unseen. 100 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:26.439 Okay, Yeah, I mean I'd never really done anything involving 101 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:32.120 true crime before. I never had any particular interest. However, 102 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:36.920 my past documentaries have dealt with kind of you might say, 103 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:38.959 underdogs of society. 104 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:40.399 You know. 105 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:43.959 The last film I did, called The Facing Forward, a 106 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:49.399 students story, was about a young inner city teenager who 107 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.800 came from a very kind of chaotic background and he 108 00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:57.319 was put in this very rigorous, strict school. So it's 109 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:02.120 kind of a culture shock for him. And so the 110 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:05.560 whole film I follow him for a span of several years, 111 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:10.839 and so I deal with that. And then another another 112 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:14.040 film that went to sun Dance was called No Umbrella. 113 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:16.639 Election Day in the City And realize it's been a 114 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:19.839 long time, but you might remember that the two thousand 115 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:24.959 and four national elections was a very very close one, 116 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:29.680 and so the whole film takes place at this one 117 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:34.240 polling location where this eighty two year old city council 118 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:37.560 woman who's about five foot tall is trying to get 119 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:44.480 enough voting machines for again, these inner city people to 120 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:50.199 vote with. So, yeah, I was more interested in, I guess, 121 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:55.680 portraying people. So yeah, you would think, well, how does 122 00:07:55.759 --> 00:08:02.360 that really segue into something like this, So kind of 123 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:06.399 the long answer to your question is that when I 124 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:09.920 heard about these murders in October two thousand and nine, 125 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:16.639 I kept telling myself, no, I was not interested in 126 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:21.560 doing this, but it's really literally the scene of the 127 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:24.439 murders is about fifteen minutes from my house. So I 128 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:27.720 kind of just created a reason to go down there. 129 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:31.360 And again, I didn't want to be a gawker. I 130 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:34.639 thought I couldn't think of what I could possibly contribute 131 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:37.799 because there was so much press. There was press from 132 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:42.720 all over the world, and you know, I thought, well, 133 00:08:42.759 --> 00:08:47.000 what you know, this is just being covered. It's very depressing. Again, 134 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:50.000 what am I going to contribute? So what happened was 135 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.320 I was working on another film that actually kind of 136 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:58.000 took place in the same neighborhood. So I create an 137 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:00.759 excuse just to go there. I thought, of women, I'll 138 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:02.759 just get a few shots of the house. Maybe I 139 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:08.200 can kind of tie it in. And at that point there, 140 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:11.559 as you know, the twenty four hour news cycle being 141 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:15.679 what it is, all of the press had left because 142 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:19.919 of the Fort Hood shooting, and so you know, there 143 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:22.720 were a few camera local camera people, but so I 144 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:25.240 was just filming the house and all of these people 145 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:28.279 started coming up to me. Neighbors who were still so 146 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:32.600 upset by this, and they just wanted to talk. So 147 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:38.159 I guess my first sort of aha moment was thinking, Wow, 148 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:40.879 people really want to talk about this. You know there 149 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.240 is something here, There's something for me to do, though 150 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:46.039 again I didn't know what it was yet. 151 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:51.399 Now, part of the process to do this is very 152 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:54.600 similar to you are a writer, so very similar to 153 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:57.759 an author in many ways, and part of that is 154 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:02.440 just basic. Your beginning process is probably a lot of research. 155 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:06.559 And I saw Robert Sperner's name and he was on 156 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:09.639 the program talking about his book House of Whorors and 157 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:12.639 say he's involved in this film in some way tell 158 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:17.519 us about Robert Spyerna's involvement. But also just the research 159 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:22.960 that you did do before you underwent this project. 160 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.799 Actually, surprisingly I did. I didn't do that much research 161 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:33.919 because I guess at the beginning in two thousand and nine, 162 00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:36.519 you know, not that much was known. I mean, when 163 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:40.480 I first started, we didn't even know who the women were. 164 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:43.919 They were still trying to identify the women, so it's 165 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:47.480 not as if there was anything to research. I was 166 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:50.399 just sort of following what was going on in the papers. 167 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:55.840 So I guess Unlike a book, where you can kind 168 00:10:55.879 --> 00:11:00.440 of cover a lot, you have to very quicklyocus in 169 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:04.600 on a theme. And so I knew sort of write 170 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:08.919 off that I wasn't particularly interested in serial killers because 171 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:11.000 to me, im, you know, they're not It's not someone 172 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:14.960 I can identify with as a person, you know. I mean, 173 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:18.519 I'm curious as a as an individual about you know, 174 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:22.879 what makes them tick. But as far as making a film, 175 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.759 I want to make it about people that I might 176 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:30.519 be able to identify and sympathize with. So I decided 177 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:36.720 to focus it more on the victims. The problem with 178 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:42.039 that again aside from just getting access to families, especially 179 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:46.200 during this time of grief, as you know, how do 180 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:50.080 you kind of recreate someone who has already passed, And 181 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:52.759 a lot of these women were poor, they'd been away 182 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:55.919 from their families because of drugs, and so a lot 183 00:11:55.960 --> 00:11:58.480 of them didn't even have photos. It was you know, 184 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:02.200 pre digital aid, so you know, there might be just 185 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:06.799 one or two photos. So then I thought, well, it's 186 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.799 got to focus more on the women that escaped, But 187 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.399 so far there had only been a couple that had 188 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:17.080 actually spoken to the media, and again, the media is 189 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:20.000 sort of all over them. Because they had come forward, 190 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:26.039 and so I really didn't get very far. You know, 191 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:28.200 I've just sort of filmed a lot of the things, 192 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:30.559 you know, the action that was going on outside the 193 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:36.039 house and sort of whoever whoever was accessible at the time. 194 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:40.480 But it really wasn't until twenty eleven when there was 195 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.759 the trial that I was aware of of more of 196 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.720 the women that escaped, and that's how I met Robert 197 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:51.240 actually was at the trial. I mean, it pretty much 198 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:54.840 drew all the reporters and writers and people who were 199 00:12:54.919 --> 00:13:00.440 working on this. So it was really at that point 200 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:05.200 that because they were, as I should explain, that the 201 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:10.480 judge had put a gag order on the witnesses, so 202 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:13.480 even if they were willing to talk, they simply couldn't. 203 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:20.080 So around you know, twenty eleven twenty twelve is when 204 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.519 we were able to meet many of these these people, 205 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:29.320 including more of the women that escaped, and again Robert 206 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:34.919 writing a book, had and having he was really great 207 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:40.559 at tracking people down, interviewed you know, far more people, 208 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:43.000 and also was able to get his book out sooner. 209 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:49.000 Film is a very long process, so he was very 210 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:53.120 helpful in terms of of you know, setting me up 211 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:58.080 with some of the subjects who particularly some of the 212 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:03.240 women that has had escaped. So that is how that worked. 213 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:09.519 Now you talk about before we talk about some of 214 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:12.320 the victims, and especially as you do in the film, 215 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:19.080 you opened with victim Melvet Sockwell and she leads to 216 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:22.840 Anthony Sowell receiving a fifteen year sentence or a sentence 217 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:27.519 where he is in there for fifteen years rape that 218 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:31.919 she reports to police. Melvet Sockwell. Very powerful opening to 219 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:37.000 unseen for all of the victims. And you say you 220 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.600 met them after the trial. Obviously you couldn't speak to 221 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:43.360 them before that. What did you say to them to 222 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:47.559 convince them? Because this is a film that goes beyond 223 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:54.600 the typical even with victim centered or focused documentaries, to 224 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:58.879 get that much more information, it's that much more intimate. 225 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:05.120 It's everything that possibly you would want to know about 226 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:10.279 how they got to where they got to. What did 227 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.559 you say to them to convince them? How did you 228 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:14.840 go about convincing them that you were going to do 229 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:18.519 something different than some people that are even leary of 230 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:20.600 the media, and they may have been as well. Tell 231 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:21.120 us about that. 232 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.159 Well, I can't say it was, you know the same 233 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:33.200 for everybody. It's hard to say, I mean Vanessa Gay 234 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:37.799 for example, I think she was more willing to tell 235 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:40.600 her story. I mean, it was kind of a cathartic 236 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.799 experience for her. But initially, actually, as it happened, my 237 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:51.240 previous film was screening and I invited her to a 238 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:56.879 screening of that, and so she actually met the subject 239 00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:01.279 of my last documentary and they had conversation. So that 240 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:04.799 was really fortuitous, and they kind of hit it off, 241 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:09.080 and that was kind of an amazing experience to have, 242 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:12.919 you know, the subject of my past film talking to 243 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:17.039 potentially the subject of my new film. And I mean, 244 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:21.759 and she is just a people person, and you know, 245 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:25.960 I kind of hit it off with her just personally. 246 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:28.360 I mean, she has a great sense of humor, and 247 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:31.919 so I think, you know that that may have had 248 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.080 something to do with it. And initially I did interview 249 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:39.519 her first with an interview I didn't use uh, but 250 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:44.679 I actually we talked all about her background and you know, 251 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:49.000 nothing about actually what happened in the house. And at 252 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:50.960 the time, to be honest with you, I was kind 253 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:55.159 of shy about asking about the how she had given 254 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:59.159 this really powerful testimony in Core, which you see in 255 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:02.000 the film, and I thought well, I don't want to 256 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:05.160 drag her through that again. I mean, I have to say, 257 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:08.559 this is not something I enjoyed doing, you know, dragging 258 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:12.920 someone having them relive, you know, what happened in there, 259 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.599 and to relive all the horrors. So, you know, I 260 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:18.599 spent a lot of time on you know, I wanted 261 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:22.079 to know what she was like as a person growing up, 262 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.160 and so we spent a lot of time on that initially, 263 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:29.960 but then I realized, wow, I really do have to 264 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.799 talk about what happened. So then later we we kind 265 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:39.119 of redid the whole thing. And so these interviews, they 266 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:42.160 were long, and again I didn't just get right into hey, 267 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:46.359 you know what happened. That was usually after a couple hours. 268 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:51.039 So yeah, it wasn't it wasn't easy, and it wasn't 269 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.759 something they just agreed to right away. Usually wouldn't meet 270 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.440 with them first. But yeah, I mean I can't tell you. 271 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:01.359 It's not like I have some some men formula. 272 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:04.559 And you wouldn't give it to me anyway. 273 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.960 So yeah, no, I really don't know. I mean I 274 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:10.799 didn't make any assumptions that they would want to do it. 275 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.440 You know, I just told them what the film was 276 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:19.240 about and it's about humanizing the victims and telling their 277 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:24.000 story and not because you do see in most films 278 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:27.119 that deal will deal with a serial killer, the victims 279 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:30.319 are just kind of the tools. I mean that they're 280 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:32.960 just sort of thrown in there like okay, yeah, here 281 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:35.480 was his first victim, and you know that kind of thing. 282 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.519 Yeah. What I wanted to say too, is that you 283 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:47.240 in you do have that one interview with her, another interview, 284 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:50.799 another interview, then you show the powerful court testimony and 285 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.640 then it's juxtaposed or you cut to your interview which 286 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:57.640 deals with the same thing, and then again her very 287 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:04.160 very powerful DEMONI and her powerful testimony in this film. 288 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:07.640 I also wanted to just tell people that are trying 289 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:13.079 to visualize this as well, is that this Vanessa Gay 290 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:17.240 and other victims in this despite what you might think 291 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:22.279 when you you know, when you picture these people in 292 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:26.119 your mind, I want you to tell us about Vanessa 293 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:28.720 Gay as well, in terms of what she looks like, 294 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:32.319 by what you might think, despite all this background, and 295 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:36.400 then this film is quite a bit about not to 296 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.839 say that it's only about that, but it is quite 297 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:41.559 a bit about drug addiction, isn't it. 298 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:46.839 Yes, it is well to your first question. Yeah, Vanessa 299 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.160 is a really effervescent, kind of bubbly person like when 300 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:54.839 you first meet her. In fact, I didn't I specifically 301 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:57.599 did not label the women, you know, when you id 302 00:19:57.839 --> 00:19:59.960 them and lower. I just put her name. I didn't 303 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:05.240 say survivor or victim because I don't even well kind 304 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:07.160 of giving it away. But I don't want you to 305 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:10.720 know immediately who they are. I just want you to 306 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:14.079 kind of see them on their own terms. And so, yeah, 307 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:19.119 she and Latundra Billups are two women. They're they're really 308 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.960 well spoken. You know, Latundra comes off as kind of 309 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:28.279 a business woman, maybe you know again, someone you might 310 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:31.640 want to chat with over, you know, with over a 311 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:35.759 cup of coffee, have a conversation. So and and you know, 312 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.799 you asked me about kind of what I learned from this, 313 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:42.279 because I had a picture in my head of what 314 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:47.519 a crack addict was. I mean, most these women were 315 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:51.880 lured in with the promise of crack to Sowell's house. 316 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:55.480 So I kind of had this picture of, you know, 317 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.480 these women with their teeth falling out, hair falling out 318 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.400 and skinny, and so you know, they were anything. But 319 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:06.839 I mean, of course that it does affect a lot 320 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.359 of the women that way, but they had been kind 321 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:16.200 of spared the physical ravages of this addiction or so, 322 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:21.440 so yeah, it's not always what you think. And again, 323 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:24.480 and that's how I want the audience to view them 324 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:27.400 as well. You know, these could be my neighbors people 325 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:32.240 I know, and I think, actually, I mean, it's interesting 326 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:37.839 because back then the whole heroin addiction or epidemic hadn't 327 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:43.599 really hit. And so I think now, you know, middle 328 00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:48.720 upper classes people are kind of realizing, yeah, this stuff 329 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:53.880 isn't just something that happens in urban neighborhoods or in 330 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:58.400 poor neighborhoods. This could happen to me or to my friends. 331 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.200 So I may be digressing, so feel free to stop me. 332 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.720 You talk about as well in your show, and then 333 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:14.519 you have a very dramatic and very interesting subject here. 334 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:19.400 Pastor Larry Harris a very interesting character, and he talks 335 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:23.240 about Mount Pleasant then in the beginning, or when he 336 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:26.440 was young. And now when you were making this film, 337 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:31.039 Mount Pleasant is where all of this happened. As you 338 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:34.720 show and as you tell through this film, tell us 339 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.319 a little bit about Mount Pleasant and Pastor Larry Harris. 340 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:43.319 Okay, well, it's ironic that the place where this happened 341 00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:47.000 is called Mount Pleasant. I mean it's a sad irony, 342 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:51.839 but in fact it was a very pleasant place to live. 343 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:56.079 And you know, it's been kind of an immigrant neighborhood, 344 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.400 but then for a very long time a solid working 345 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:04.039 class black, you know, mostly black neighborhood up until maybe 346 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:07.519 the early eighties, and then again when the crack epidemic 347 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:13.759 hit and you know, it just it just got destroyed. 348 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.559 So it's in it even now. It's it's pretty sad 349 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:21.119 when you drive around and you see these cute little houses, 350 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:24.440 the little porches, and yeah, people talked about how they 351 00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:28.079 leave their doors unlocked at night, and all the little 352 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:32.519 stores and breakfast places and just the sense of community. 353 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:39.720 So you know it just like it kind of kills 354 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:44.039 me to see that. And then it's you know, it's 355 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:47.599 right next door to Shaker Heights, which again is one 356 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:53.079 of the more affluent neighborhoods, and it's it's kind of 357 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:55.319 amazing how you can just kind of go around a 358 00:23:55.400 --> 00:23:58.559 corner and feel like you've dropped off the edge of 359 00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:04.920 the earth. So so Pastor Larry his church is right 360 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:08.839 in Mount Pleasant, and again, you know, I couldn't put 361 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.279 a lot in the film, but he talked about how, yeah, 362 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:15.519 the the people that come to the church were mostly 363 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:19.279 from the neighborhood, but now they you know, they've moved 364 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:21.559 out and a lot of them drive in just from 365 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:26.920 the suburbs and so, uh so, yeah, even the church, 366 00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:30.799 and he admits this in the film, there's kind of 367 00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:36.359 a schism or not a schism, but the church is 368 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:40.400 maybe not as involved with the community around it as 369 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:46.000 much as it could. And uh so, I think he 370 00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:51.640 kind of admits some of his failures as a as 371 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:55.240 a church to really kind of embrace these women that 372 00:24:55.440 --> 00:25:01.400 are addicted to crack and oh and really kind of 373 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:06.440 give them their full love and support. And you'll see 374 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:10.400 that in other parts of the film where there's this 375 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:17.039 really harrowing description that Vanessa talks about after she escapes 376 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.039 from the house that was on a Sunday and then 377 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:21.400 there were these church people and they just kind of 378 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:27.599 looked away. So yes, but Pastor Larry makes some very 379 00:25:28.119 --> 00:25:30.000 powerful statements in the films. 380 00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:36.440 Absolutely, you have a character that really stands out at first, 381 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:40.720 you sympathize with them to a certain degrees. Obviously, somebody 382 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.920 immigrated to America and he is in this new transformed 383 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:50.960 neighborhood in Mount Pleasant across from Anthony Soul's home and 384 00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:55.519 raised sausages at the corner and all of this. Mayhem 385 00:25:55.839 --> 00:26:00.240 goes on in that neighborhood and his name's Assad and 386 00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:03.400 he's a store owner, and you show his background and 387 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:08.519 he talks about these two young crackheads and his brother 388 00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:13.799 tell us about this character, and that first interview, it's 389 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:17.200 like you do, do the interview and then continue later 390 00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:20.359 and later it becomes more and more powerful. Tell us 391 00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:23.680 about this very very interesting character that you dug up. 392 00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:32.000 Yeah, well he is, you know, the Arab store or 393 00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:36.720 corner store owner. And you know, you see that in 394 00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:42.119 a lot of these poor black neighborhoods there's usually a 395 00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:46.680 corner store. And you know, originally he talks about his 396 00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:54.759 brother getting shot and killed because these these two I 397 00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.200 don't know if it was over some drug deal or 398 00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:01.000 you know what exactly happened, but he was held up 399 00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:05.079 and shot, and so yes, you do feel sympathy for him. 400 00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:09.000 And you know, he talks again about just how he 401 00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:13.599