WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:11.480 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:14.599 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:21.960 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 4 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:25.679 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:29.960 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:41.159 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:45.799 In two thousand and four, the FBI was tipped off 8 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:52.000 to a gruesome pattern of unsolved murders along American roadways. Today, 9 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:55.159 at least eight hundred and fifty homicides have been linked 10 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:59.679 to a solitary breed of predators, long haul truck drivers. 11 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:04.120 They've been given names like the truck stop killer, who 12 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:06.799 rigged a traveling torture chamber in the rear of his 13 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:11.239 truck and is suspected to have killed fifty women, and 14 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:15.319 the Interstate strangler, who once answered a phone call from 15 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:19.599 his mother while killing one of his dozen victims. The 16 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.480 crisis was such that the FBI opened a special unit, 17 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:30.159 the Highway Serial Killings Initiative. In many cases, the victims, 18 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:33.480 often at risk women, are picked up at truck stops 19 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:38.760 in one jurisdiction, sexually assaulted and murdered in another and 20 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:43.959 dumped along a highway in a third place. The transient 21 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:48.920 nature of the offenders and multiple jurisdictions involved make these 22 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:54.719 cases incredibly difficult to solve. Based on his own on 23 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:58.359 the ground research and drawing on his twenty five year 24 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:04.680 career as an FBI's special agent, Frank Figluozy investigates the 25 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:09.560 most terrifying cases. He also rides in a big rig 26 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:13.319 with a long haul trucker for thousands of miles, gaining 27 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:17.039 an intimate understanding of the life and habits of drivers 28 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:22.919 and their roadside culture. And he interviews the courageous traffic 29 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:27.240 victims of these crimes and their inspiring efforts to now 30 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:32.759 help others avoid similar fates. Long Haul is a gripping 31 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:37.280 exploration of a violent, disordered world hiding in plain sight 32 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:43.000 and the heroes racing to end the horror. It will 33 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:48.039 forever unsettle how you travel on the road. The book 34 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:51.719 that we're featuring this evening is long Haul, Hunting the 35 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:57.400 Highway serial Killers with my special guest, former FBI Assistant 36 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:01.680 director and National Security contributor for him News and author 37 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:06.439 Frank Figluzy. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much. 38 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:09.159 For this interview, Frank big Luesy. 39 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:12.879 Thank you, Dan. I am I'm thrilled to be a 40 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.039 part of this and be a small part of what 41 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:19.719 you've been doing for fourteen fifteen years, So thanks for having. 42 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:23.800 Thank you so much. You take us right into this book, 43 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:28.159 long Haul Hunting the Highway serial Killers. You offer a 44 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:31.919 dramatic example of what readers will discover in the following 45 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:34.800 pages and know hear from you in this interview. You 46 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:39.439 take us to April fools Day, nineteen ninety. Arizona State 47 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:43.560 Trooper Mike Miller spots a truck with its hazard lights 48 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:46.800 on on the shoulder of I ten in Casta Grande. 49 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:52.120 Tell us what he finds, Yeah, the Grande. If anybody's 50 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:55.639 ever driven between Phoenix and Tucson, the Costa Grande marks 51 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:59.479 the halfway point on Ien and this trooper seize the 52 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:02.360 truck hazard lights on, gets out of his car, puts 53 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:05.759 his trooper hat on, and approaches the cab of the truck. 54 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:09.319 And that's when he hears the screams of a young 55 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:14.159 woman who is shackled in the back of the cab 56 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:19.680 and naked except for a pair of fuzzy lion bedroom 57 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:25.600 slippers and he realizes, you know, I've got a problem here, 58 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:31.839 and that driver was Robert Ben Rhodes, who we later 59 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:37.560 find out was a notorious killer who may have killed 60 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:43.160 as many as fifty people, mostly women. This begins a 61 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:50.160 massive investigation. Amongst Robert Ben Rhodes's victims was a fourteen 62 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:53.759 year old girl whose body is found only later, much later, 63 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:58.600 in an abandoned Illinois farmhouse. This fourteen year old was 64 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:04.120 hitchhiking boyfriend outside of Houston, Texas. He you know, the 65 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:07.600 boyfriend and her were picked up by Rhodes. The boyfriend 66 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:11.160 was quickly killed because he was a mere speed bump 67 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:17.639 in the way, and then for the next weeks, Rhodes 68 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:24.959 proceeds to rape and torture Regina Walters at his discretionion. 69 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:31.720 The cruelty of Rhodes is really mind blowing. At one point, 70 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:37.720 he calls he actually anonymously calls Regina's father, who of 71 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:40.759 course is distraught over where Regina may or may not 72 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:44.399 be yes and he says, I've made some changes. I've 73 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:46.959 cut her hair, and he hangs up. I tell the 74 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:50.360 story of Regina in the book, because number one, it's ghastly. 75 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:54.800 But the photos that Rhodes took up her just before 76 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:59.519 he killed her. Are seared into my brain because if 77 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.319 you see the photos of Regina Walters, you're looking at 78 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:06.399 a girl who's been tortured and raped, knows she may 79 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:09.399 be killed and has been. Her hair's been cut into 80 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:12.480 a short bob, she's been forced into a black dress 81 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:15.879 and high heels, and the look on her face and 82 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:21.160 the body language is someone who is really pleading to 83 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:25.560 not be raped again. Her arms are outstretched, the look 84 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.319 on her face is ghastly, and it's something that really 85 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:29.920 sticks with you. 86 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:34.519 Now, you were a former FBI Assistant director and twenty 87 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:38.680 five years as special agent and true you talk about 88 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:42.759 the long haul this book project, it's origins beginning in 89 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:47.000 twenty twenty one with the conversation. Tell us about that 90 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:50.480 conversation and who that was with and how this was 91 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:52.560 the impetus for this book to begin. 92 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:55.680 Yeah, you know, I kind of with all my various 93 00:06:55.759 --> 00:07:01.160 leadership roles around the FBI, I kind of prided myself 94 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:05.040 on how much I knew about the corners of the FBI, 95 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:08.120 the nooks and crannies of the FBI. At one time, 96 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:10.519 I was the Chief Inspector of the FBI, which meant 97 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:14.600 I had to audit programs everywhere in the FBI. 98 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:15.040 And so. 99 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:18.720 People think, oh, well, Frank has probably written a book 100 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:22.000 about something he's worked here in the FBI. Well that's 101 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:24.759 not true. The truth is that I knew little to 102 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:29.360 nothing about the Highway Serial Killer Initiative inside the FBI 103 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:34.160 until I retired and had a discussion with the woman 104 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:38.560 who has headed up this initiative, the HSK within the FBI. 105 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:42.160 She's assigned to Behavioral Analysis Unit for at Quantico, Virginia. 106 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:44.240 And I said, what do you do for a living? 107 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:47.439 And she said, I head up the Highway Serial Killings 108 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:52.319 Initiative And I said what. She said, Yeah, we have 109 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:55.639 an initiative involving at least eight hundred and fifty murders 110 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:59.120 that we know of alongside our nation's roadways that we 111 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:03.959 believe are committed by long haul truckers. And I said, okay, 112 00:08:04.040 --> 00:08:07.800 you got to tell me more, and she did. I 113 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:10.160 had to learn more myself. That's the investigator in me. 114 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:13.480 I had to dig deeply. The FBI can't talk about 115 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:17.399 pending investigations, and so I knew that and I respected that, 116 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.079 but now I had to know more. And this is 117 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.199 my journey. This book is really the story of my 118 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:26.319 journey into three cultures. Long haul trucking, for which, by 119 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.279 the way, I rode over two thousand miles with a 120 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:31.920 long haul trucker on a flatbed across the country to 121 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.519 try to get deep into the long haul trucking culture 122 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:41.159 and understand it. Then second culture I dig into is trafficking, 123 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:45.679 sex trafficking, because the vast majority of these victims eight 124 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:49.519 hundred and fifty of them are indeed sex trafficking victims. 125 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.240 And then thirdly, of course, the crime analysis, the behavioral 126 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:57.840 analysis of these crimes, and the people who work to 127 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:00.440 connect the dots to stop the killer. So it's a 128 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:05.639 book about three cultures focused around the most heinous killers, 129 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:10.679 the most compelling victims. Really a deep dive into trafficking 130 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:12.000 and crime analysis. 131 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:19.080 Let's talk about Catherine Devein and the Highway Serial Killings Initiative. 132 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.840 Yeah, indeed, one of the people I spent a great 133 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:26.039 deal of time with was Catherine Devane. And by the way, 134 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.919 that is a pseudonym. You know, serial killers tend to 135 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:32.360 be a bit unpleasant, and so the head of the 136 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:35.159 initiative is you know, asked me to please use an 137 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.919 alias and I did. And she's been doing this for 138 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:44.720 seventeen years. And her job is to lead a team 139 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:50.480 that gathers the data from local, county and state law 140 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:55.039 enforcement agencies around the country with regard to their unsolved 141 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:59.600 highway killings. And she starts connecting the dots. And yes, 142 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:03.600 there are fils and ow algorithms, but quite honestly, also 143 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:07.679 it is brain power. It is their knowledge and expertise 144 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:11.919 that says this one looks like that one. And I 145 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:17.440 get deep in the book into commonalities victims, something called victimology, 146 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.320 of course, which is the study of how a victim 147 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:24.000 comes to be the victim, what the crime scene looks like. 148 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:27.399 Are they redheads? And I get deep into the well 149 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.559 known series of murders called the Redhead murders along our 150 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:36.440 nation's highways, committed by truckers. Are they shot? Are they strangled? 151 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:39.759 Are they duct taped? If so rare? Are they found 152 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:42.639 in a ditch, under a tree or in water? Is 153 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:46.399 their own clothing used to strangle them or to gag them? 154 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:50.480 Are they raped before they die or post mortem? All 155 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:53.960 of this is discussed in the book because those are 156 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:57.519 the details that matter, Those are the details that connect 157 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:00.360 one case to another. And then of course, even when 158 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.960 you've connected cases because of those commonalities, well that's nice, 159 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:07.120 but you then have to solve the case by finding 160 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:12.799 the killer. And this initiative is based on the premise 161 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:16.799 that law enforcement agencies will enter their data and allow 162 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.720 the FBI to make those connections. That's the key, and 163 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.960 part of Catherine De Bane's job is getting out there 164 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:26.759 on the road preaching the gospel of the HSK two 165 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:31.519 police departments who often say, look, we were a small department, 166 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:35.080 we're a sheriff's office. We don't have an analyst to 167 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:39.039 enter the data. You know, there's like two two hundred 168 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:42.639 questions on these FBI forms that you've got to fill 169 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:45.759 out about your victim, your crime scene, your location, your murder, 170 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:48.159 and if you don't answer those questions that the FBI 171 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:53.120 is really challenged. In fact, sometimes this unit at Quantico, 172 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:57.080 Virginia will simply pick up a lead from reading the newspaper. 173 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:00.000 They'll say, look, look at this. This happened in our 174 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:03.559 Alabama and doesn't this look like the thing that happened 175 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:06.879 the murder that happened in Oklahoma. It's those kinds of 176 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:08.080 connections that get made. 177 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:13.440 You're talking about that she's trying to impress to law 178 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:17.759 enforcement agencies about the importance of entering information into the 179 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:23.399 FBI's ViCAP Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, because, as you say, 180 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.679 it's essential that they put that information in. You also 181 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:30.279 chronicle in the book the reasons why on Earth they 182 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:33.399 wouldn't enter information into this database. 183 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:39.639 Yeah, the hsk I Highway Serial Killings Initiative is a 184 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:45.360 sub database within ViCAP, and many many police departments don't 185 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:48.240 even know it exists. So again, a large part of 186 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:51.600 the FBI's job is education and awareness, and then you 187 00:12:51.639 --> 00:12:54.279 know as to reasons why that data may not get 188 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:57.039 entered at all. You got everything from a lack of 189 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.759 resources and budget to lack of computer resources. Again, some 190 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:04.320 of these departments don't even have a crime analyst, let alone. 191 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:06.639 Sometimes they don't have detectives. If you've got to stay 192 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:09.240 you know, a county sheriff's office, for example, whose job 193 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:13.480 is road patrol, and they're stuck with this case. Somebody's 194 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:15.600 got to do this, And in some cases, the IFI 195 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:19.799 will help get a grant from DOJ to get that 196 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:22.960 analytical resource. Sometimes, if you've got a serious of cases, 197 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:25.799 they'll they'll fly out to you and say, look, we'll 198 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:28.279 enter the data for you, but this is garbage and 199 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:30.679 garbage out. We can't help you if we don't know 200 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:31.600 about your case. 201 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:37.120 Now you include the Nashville Metro Police Department homicide detective 202 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:42.960 path Postaglione, and he caught up with long hauler killer 203 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:47.960 Bruce Mendelhall sitting in his vehicle at a Tennessee truck stop. 204 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:54.879 Tell us about this case and this officer and Bruce Mendelhall. 205 00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:02.279 Yeah, Mendenhall is another notorious repeated serial killer. And actually 206 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:04.879 this was a this was a good news story, if 207 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:07.759 there's any such thing in this business. By that, I 208 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.879 mean he was captured within two weeks of one of 209 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:16.080 his murders. And sometimes these things go on for literally decades, decades, 210 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:20.399 meaning they don't Sometimes it's decades before they the police 211 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:24.320 even know the name of a victim. DNA, by the way, 212 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:27.960 no surprise, is now solving many of these cold cases 213 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:30.399 where a detective says, well, I'll let me enter the 214 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.720 DNA and see what happens, and bingo, now we get 215 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.039 a connection to a killer or to DNA found on 216 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:40.080 another victim years ago. And that, by the way, that 217 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:42.360 happened a couple of times while I was writing this book, 218 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:44.159 I had to you know, I thought I had a 219 00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:47.720 comprehensive understanding of all the cases, and then I had 220 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.360 set alerts on my on Google Alerts to alert me 221 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.840 if another development occurred in any case involving truckers and 222 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.240 killers and bingo. You know, I had a couple happened 223 00:14:58.279 --> 00:14:59.519 while I was writing the book and I had to 224 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:03.480 insert them. So the story of the story of yeah, 225 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:05.600 so it's very much still happening. This is not a 226 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.919 history book. It is, but it's also still very much 227 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:12.960 at real time. So Mendenhall interesting story. And there's something 228 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:15.480 really kind of spooky that happens to me personally I'll 229 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:19.600 share with you. But he grabs a girl named Sarah 230 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:23.840 Nicole Hulibert at a truck stop, and yes, she is 231 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:27.000 a trafficking victim related to that. That truck stop, it's 232 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.039 it's one of the rare truck stops that is in 233 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:32.120 a downtown area of a city. You don't usually see that, 234 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:36.159 but the highway dumps you off quickly into Nashville, and 235 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:41.480 this truck stop was there, and he grabs her. There. Now, 236 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:46.720 a really sharp detective named Pat pestil Pastilione, Nashville, PD 237 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:49.960 is work and gets assigned to that case, and he's, 238 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.360 you know, occasionally he's surveilling that truck stop afterwards, just 239 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.879 to get familiar with it. And sure enough he sees 240 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:01.519 this truck. It seems suspicious to him, him the way 241 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:04.559 the driver's acting, and he decides he's going to walk 242 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.360 up and talk to the driver. And he says something 243 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:11.000 to Mendenhall, like are you the guy we're looking for? 244 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.679 And Mendenhall shrugs his shoulders and says, if you say so. 245 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:23.759 And in that truck Pasciglione finds basically a mobile crime scene. 246 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:28.799 He's got blood from five different victims in there, He's 247 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:33.799 got sex toys and knives and guns and pornography. It's 248 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:39.919 then that POSTIONI knows, of course, that he's got his man. Now, ironically, 249 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:43.919 as I'm on the road researching this book, I happen 250 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:50.399 to find myself riding through Nashville past Nashville, and I've 251 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:53.399 spent a week with this particular driver who was gracious 252 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:56.600 enough to have me sleep in his cabin, ride along 253 00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:59.159 with him for thousands of miles, and I go, look, 254 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:00.600 you know, it is time for me to go home. 255 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.080 We've got to find an airport that I can you know, 256 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:04.920 I can get I can get to and get home. 257 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:08.240 And we realized the next big city coming up with 258 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:11.839 an airport is Nashville. And I am, you know, as 259 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.519 many people who spend time in a long time in 260 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.200 a truck, I'm in need of a shower. And so 261 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:19.559 he goes, look, we'll pull off at this in Nashville. 262 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.319 We'll stop at this truck stop and you can take 263 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.119 a shower at the truck stop and get and then 264 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:27.759 take an uber to the airport. And as I'm inside 265 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.680 this truck stop and I'm showering, I start thinking about 266 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.119 where I am, and I realize I am at the 267 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:42.279 very same truck stop where Mendenhall killed Sarah Hulbert and 268 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:46.880 where Mendenhall was arrested as well. That you know, there 269 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.839 were coincidences throughout my trip, but this one really struck me. 270 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:55.839 You say, in your journey with this truck driver you 271 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:59.960 call Mike, you learned of the many characteristics of truckers 272 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:04.400 that would lend themselves to an environment conducive to serial killing. 273 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:09.000 Yeah. Again, twenty five years as an FBI agent, I 274 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.759 didn't want to write a book that just regurgitated high 275 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:16.920 profile killer truckers. I mean, many true crime fans know 276 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:20.000 many of these murders and many of these victims. I 277 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:22.079 didn't want to write that book. I wanted to write 278 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:26.680 a book that said, and by the way, I'm an investigator, 279 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:29.039 and I have my own theories. I want to ask 280 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:35.799 the questions like which truckers are more likely to be killers? 281 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:40.319 I also asked the question which victims, which kinds of 282 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:46.000 sex trafficked women and girls are more likely to be killed. 283 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:48.880 This is the kind of thing that I'm trained to 284 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:52.960 do as an FBI agent, and I wanted to kind 285 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:57.559 of help my colleagues in law enforcement to focus more squarely. So, 286 00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:02.680 for example, when I asked the head of this FBI initiative, so, look, 287 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.799 you've got about eight hundred and fifty killings that you 288 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.000 know of over the years. You're telling me that twenty 289 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:12.160 five long haul truckers are already in prison for multiple merders. 290 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.359 And yet you're telling me there's also about two hundred 291 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:20.160 cases that are considered unsolved and active. How many suspects 292 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.839 do you have right now that you're actively working in 293 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:27.759 these unsolved cases? The answer staggered me. It was four 294 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:32.640 hundred and fifty suspects right. 295 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.240 Now that are on the roof. 296 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.559 So I say that to say that I wanted to 297 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.720 get in the weeds about Okay, how do we break 298 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:45.359 this down? There's just too many truckers. So I get 299 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:51.200 into the different kinds of trucking. There's a hierarchy of trucking. 300 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:53.880 You've got people at the high end of the pace 301 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:57.559 scale that are doing flatbed. I happen to ride flatbed. 302 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.799 What does that mean? It means you've got to have 303 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:07.160 some knowledge of math and physics, weight distribution, strapping and 304 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:12.640 chaining and tarping your load, meeting mandatory DOT requirements for 305 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.079 points of securement based on the size and weight of 306 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.720 your load. You've got to determine whether you can even 307 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:20.880 get gas today because your load's too heavy or not. 308 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.440 You're physically engaged with the load because you are the 309 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:28.440 one that is doing the chains and straps. You know what, 310 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:31.480 One day we picked up and carried a what's called 311 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:35.319 a suicide coil, which is an incredibly heavy roll of 312 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:38.759 steel and that has to be chained and strapped and 313 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.400 secured properly. And why is it called a suicide coil 314 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.200 because if you do it wrong and it's not secured, 315 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:46.640 it could roll right through the back of your cab. 316 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:49.880 So you don't want that happening, so I go through. 317 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:53.039 You know, those people are paid well. But even more 318 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.640 higher pay is for truckers who do the heavy loads 319 00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:58.039 that you see on the highway, you know with the 320 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:01.200 follow car and the lead car hey load, heavy load. 321 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:04.599 Or there's also something called low boys. Low boys are 322 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:08.839 inches off the ground because their cargo, their load is 323 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:13.960 extremely tall and requires the lower profile truck so it 324 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:19.079 can fit under bridges and such. You've got hasmat people 325 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:22.160 who carry has mat. They're well paid. You've got reefer 326 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.920 drivers that refers to refrigerated trucks where our nation's produce 327 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.319 is transported. And then you have what's called the dry banners, 328 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.720 the guys and gals who are carrying you know, dry goods, 329 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.000 a load of Kleenex from California to North Carolina. That's 330 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.559 the simplest form of driving. I'm not saying it's easy, 331 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:42.960 but their physical engagement with the load consists of opening 332 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.920 the back door when they drop off their load. So 333 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:49.119 I get into the psychology of that. Who does what 334 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:51.920 and who's more likely to be the killer. I also 335 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:55.279 talk about corporate drivers, you know, big names we all 336 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:56.920 are familiar with. We see it on the side of 337 00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:01.359 the trailers, right JB. Hunt, Warner, et cetera. And the 338 00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:04.480 high tech monitoring that goes on in those companies making 339 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.160 it a little less likely that that driver has the 340 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.559 time to kill and the opportunity to kill. I talk 341 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:13.519 about own owner operators who have a little more free 342 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:16.640 license and less monitoring. I do the same thing for 343 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.839 the victim side and talk about the different kinds of 344 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.720 sex trade and pimp controlled girls. And I say girls 345 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:27.240 by the way, because some of them are literally not 346 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:31.000 not women yet they're they're miners. Most start as miners 347 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:33.319 in the trafficking world. And I get into you know, 348 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.519 whether a pimp controlled girl or renegade or an outlaws 349 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:40.680 these are different terminolog's a different terminology that describes trafficking 350 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.440 victims who's more likely to die. And some of the theories 351 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:46.440 in the book I hope may help law enforcement. 352 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:50.559 That's as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. 353 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:57.279 You talk about also the analysis of the kinds of 354 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:02.640 offenders that have been seen in these trucker serial killing cases. 355 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:07.920 And now are seeing more recently. So tell us about 356 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:11.480 the type of offenders that have been analyzed. 357 00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:16.799 Yeah, there's not so. I'm careful to say after talking 358 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:20.440 to the experts that there's not a huge distinction between 359 00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:23.359 the average There is such a thing as an average 360 00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:28.279 serial killer and a trucker serial killer. There are, of course, 361 00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:33.079 some obvious distinctions, but essentially serial killers, including the truckers, 362 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:37.240 fall into one of two categories. The one The first 363 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.119 one is where the killer simply enjoys the power of 364 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:47.440 life and death. He gets off on that and even 365 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:53.200 to the point of sexual satisfaction. Often those people take 366 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:57.640 their time killing. They like that feeling of prolonged power 367 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:02.559 and control, and they they often will rape their victims, 368 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:08.839 perhaps multiple times, as as Robert ben Rhodes did. And 369 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:13.920 then there's the second kind of killer who dispatches with 370 00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:18.240 his victims very quickly because he's about killing. He just 371 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:20.519 wants to kill, and it's not so much about sex. 372 00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:24.720 Now he may again become aroused with the killing and 373 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.039 thinking about it afterwards and take a souvenir, but he's 374 00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:31.160 going to kill very quickly. He's about the killing, often 375 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:35.160 not interested in sex at all. 376 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:38.920 Tell us about this the reality of the trucking industry 377 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:44.240 and the intersection between addicted women and the reality of 378 00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:46.440 the trucking industry and commercial sex. 379 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.240 Yeah, there's a long history here and I get into 380 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:53.599 that in the book. You know, even in the days 381 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.160 where there was a widespread usage of the CB radio, 382 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.160 which is less happens less today, but it was all 383 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:02.880 about the CB radio. And of course, you know, uh, 384 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:07.000 CB radio back then was kind of the let's say, 385 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:09.559 the social media of the trucking world. People would get 386 00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:12.279 to know each other. They would talk incessantly to the 387 00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:15.559 truckers would talk incessantly to other truckers. They talk about 388 00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:18.480 their kids and their family, where the good food was, 389 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:21.000 and where the cheapest gas was, and hey, look out 390 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.640 ahead because there's a traffic jam, bad weather's coming. All 391 00:25:24.680 --> 00:25:26.480 of that happened on the CB radio. But you know 392 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:30.160 what else happened on the CB radio advertising for sex. 393 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:34.440 And there's a whole language of that that I get 394 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:38.079 into in the book and explain the coded language, you know, 395 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:42.519 and truckers would say, who would pull into a truck 396 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:48.000 stop would say to the the would be a sexual partner. Yeah, 397 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.279 I'm in the red house in the corner well, that's 398 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:52.400 the red truck in the corner of the of the 399 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:55.400 truck stop, and the advertising would happen there, and the 400 00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.359 communication would happen there. It's much and so a lot 401 00:25:59.359 --> 00:25:59.759