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Speaker 7: You are now listening to true Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer the Nightstalker BTK every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your
Speaker 7: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. Detective Richard
Speaker 7: Shelby was the first Sacramento detective to make a connection
Speaker 7: between a series of rapes that began in can unities
Speaker 7: in East Sacramento. Law enforcement failed to stop him before
Speaker 7: he transformed into a Southern California serial killer, committing some
Speaker 7: fifty three rapes and twelve homicides from nineteen seventy six
Speaker 7: to nineteen eighty six. After Detective Shelby's retirement, twenty years
Speaker 7: after the case had gone cold, he was contacted by
Speaker 7: his old employer, the Sacramento Sheriff's Department. They had learned
Speaker 7: through DNA analysis that the East area rapist and the
Speaker 7: original Nightstalker were the same person, and they were reopening
Speaker 7: the investigation. Retired West Coast Chief of Special Investigation for
Speaker 7: the federal government Russ Oas, contacted Shelby and asked him
Speaker 7: to write down everything he recalled. Shelby was once again
Speaker 7: involved in the active investigation, his notes morphing into his
Speaker 7: instrumental book Hunting a Psychopath. The East Area Rapist Original
Speaker 7: Nightstalker Investigation. The Original Investigator Speaks Out, published in twenty
Speaker 7: and fourteen. In twenty sixteen, the FBI re entered the investigation,
Speaker 7: utilizing advances in DNA technology, offering a fifty thousand dollars
Speaker 7: reward and asking for the public's help in capturing the
Speaker 7: serial killer. Joseph James DeAngelo was arrested April twenty fifth,
Speaker 7: twenty eighteen, after a DNA match. The book they were
Speaker 7: featuring this evening and is Hunting for a Psychopath And
Speaker 7: my interview is with Detective Richard Shelby. The hunt for
Speaker 7: the psychopath is over. The Golden State Killer, East Airy Rapist,
Speaker 7: Original Nightstalker captured. Welcome back to the program, and thank
Speaker 7: you very much for a GREENUS interview.
Speaker 8: And congratulations Detective Richard Shelby.
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you glad to help you out.
Speaker 8: Thank you so much. As we just spoke to you
Speaker 8: briefly just before we got on the air. Tell us
Speaker 8: about this historic moment. How where were you, who called you,
Speaker 8: how did you hear about this? And lastly, what was
Speaker 8: your reaction, how surprised? What did you know beforehand? Tell
Speaker 8: us about this.
Speaker 4: I was sitting in my little home office when I
Speaker 4: got a phone called Carol Daly and said they've got
Speaker 4: him their book and him in. And my first thought
Speaker 4: was nothing. And I thought about that, and I had
Speaker 4: two feelings to that. What was like I just had
Speaker 4: a shower and wiped off four years of slime, and
Speaker 4: the other was Okay, done over, what's the next case?
Speaker 4: Just move on from there excuse which I have no
Speaker 4: intention of doing, by the way.
Speaker 8: Yeah, so your initial reaction was probably not as well.
Speaker 8: It's anti climactic. It wasn't as a big a moment.
Speaker 8: Did you expected a different reaction, more jubilant. No.
Speaker 4: I thought they would get him, you know, it was
Speaker 4: almost certain they've got to be on DNA. In fact,
Speaker 4: I was still actively involved in running down different different
Speaker 4: drum persons of interest. We used to call him suspects
Speaker 4: now politically correct, same person of interest. And I was
Speaker 4: very glad, very glad to hear it. And I was
Speaker 4: glad for all the people that whose lives he messed up,
Speaker 4: not just the ones that he salted, but everybody else.
Speaker 4: There were people out there that he stalked, and they
Speaker 4: knew he was stalking them, and for whatever reason. They
Speaker 4: were never actually attacked by him, so overall it was
Speaker 4: just a real lighter feeling. It just felt good about it.
Speaker 4: I didn't get jubilant like some people. I don't think
Speaker 4: any of the cops got that jubilant, but they were
Speaker 4: all very, very glad to hear it.
Speaker 8: You sorry, you say you weren't so surprised, and you
Speaker 8: were involved in the active investigation, so I know that
Speaker 8: I didn't. I wasn't aware of your how involved you were, Okay,
Speaker 8: might tell us go ahead.
Speaker 4: Jumped in there. My investigation was what I was doing.
Speaker 4: People were contacting me or here there, and I'd get information,
Speaker 4: and if they looked really good, then I would go out,
Speaker 4: and you know, I'm too open doing it. I'd go
Speaker 4: out and knocked on doors, talk to people, calling him up.
Speaker 4: I was in communication with the Sheriff's department, but I
Speaker 4: was not in communication with him regarding this DNA search.
Speaker 4: That was in need to know on the basis, which
Speaker 4: is the way it should have been, So I didn't know.
Speaker 4: I think about that. That was a total squa Okay,
Speaker 4: it was totally surprise to me that they had done it,
Speaker 4: but not a surprise that it was gonna happen. And
Speaker 4: the way they did it was really pretty brilliant. Who
Speaker 4: was uh Paul Hols was a uh frenzy investigator as
Speaker 4: a scientist, he was one cause the one person described
Speaker 4: him our good, our geek guy, he knew what to
Speaker 4: do about. He's the one who made the DNA profile
Speaker 4: on the here put it all together as if I
Speaker 4: understand correctly, He orchestrated that whole search through the DNA,
Speaker 4: I mean through the databases of the genealogy and they
Speaker 4: worked it out. And they took a months to do that,
Speaker 4: cause they'd go through thousands of names, all kinds of
Speaker 4: well anybody stand any genealogy research, no knows what's going on.
Speaker 4: And once that was done, they got up to the
Speaker 4: current people once still alive. Then he got into the
Speaker 4: modern formats, the various programs, and there must be dozens
Speaker 4: of him out there and checking tax records, etc. It's
Speaker 4: when they sew that he'd when he when it aired
Speaker 4: down to him, they saw he'd been a cop at Exeter.
Speaker 4: Was not decited to say, and then they started getting
Speaker 4: their hopes something that just might be the guy they're
Speaker 4: looking for.
Speaker 8: When I sorry, go ahead, no, I just go ahead.
Speaker 8: How the thing is in reviewing your book Hunting a Psychopath,
Speaker 8: written in twenty fourteen that goes back to nineteen seventy
Speaker 8: six and also includes the Visalia ransacker, it does very
Speaker 8: very very interesting the very early conclusions that you made
Speaker 8: and obviously observations regarding military and also police as well
Speaker 8: when you talk about the baton and the evidence. So
Speaker 8: take us back to nineteen seventy six and when you
Speaker 8: first became involved and you say you weren't involved in
Speaker 8: the you were involved in the fifth assault, and tell
Speaker 8: us how you worked it your way back and under
Speaker 8: whose instructions it was to do that, How whose initiative
Speaker 8: an impetus was this investigation, and but your procedure and
Speaker 8: going backwards and looking at other cases for similarities.
Speaker 4: When I when this first case came out, first one
Speaker 4: to me in October seventy six, it was Jane Carson,
Speaker 4: now Jane Sandler. I had worked a series of rapes
Speaker 4: earlier earlier that year called the Early Bird Rapist. We
Speaker 4: know who he was. He left the state. We didn't
Speaker 4: have today's technology. He would have been in jail no time.
Speaker 4: So when this one came out, myself Carol Daily John
Speaker 4: here when detectives named Matterson Lewis were sent out to
Speaker 4: the house. Home invasion, sexual assault. That's all we knew,
Speaker 4: and we weren't really the team. We were a team
Speaker 4: for that particular case, but none of the others. And
Speaker 4: what I noticed on that was the guy. He the
Speaker 4: suspect knew the minute her husband was leaving for work.
Speaker 4: Could have been a collegionist by a doubt. He left
Speaker 4: like six point thirty in the morning. We used the
Speaker 4: dog to track him, first time that had been done.
Speaker 4: I based that one on a paddle'neil and homicide used
Speaker 4: the dog. I thought he could do that, We could
Speaker 4: do that, So we got bloodhound somewhere and we followed
Speaker 4: the guy. And the suspect left the victim's house through
Speaker 4: the backyard open fence across the field. I think in
Speaker 4: one of the books out there says there was this
Speaker 4: crop going there was nothing growing there but weeds. They're
Speaker 4: about two foot tall with fat and the guy he
Speaker 4: had parked his car on a curb that I went
Speaker 4: and phrased that. The trail led to the curb, and
Speaker 4: directly across from that curb was two houses. That's all
Speaker 4: on the other side of the curve was just again
Speaker 4: a feel it's probably I'd huddered, fee why if that? Well,
Speaker 4: as it turns out, in one of those houses across
Speaker 4: the street in their car, the guy and normally took
Speaker 4: his garbage out at eight o'clock in the morning, I
Speaker 4: think it was that morning he took it out ten
Speaker 4: minutes early. He saw this green bell air should be
Speaker 4: sitting there when he came out the regular time, the
Speaker 4: shevy was gone. Das chuck me as some real planning,
Speaker 4: cause we got into it. We found out the several
Speaker 4: houses in neighborhood, including the victims, somebody had broken into
Speaker 4: them and taken Jolie, but left somebody else's jewel. He's
Speaker 4: taking joy from one house to another house and drop
Speaker 4: it off, take theirs, take it someplace else and drop it.
Speaker 4: In Jean's case, did he had taken her jewlie left
Speaker 4: somebody else's too. The other people getting hang up phone calls,
Speaker 4: and she got, look these kind of calls. She got
Speaker 4: one call to the guy, so I'm gonna kill your husband,
Speaker 4: and then they stopped one week prior to the to
Speaker 4: the assault. So I took it upon myself cause I
Speaker 4: thought it it stunk like a serial killer, Assyria rape
Speaker 4: this out there. So I started checking around with the
Speaker 4: other detectives, said we didn't really have the system to
Speaker 4: speak of, and I found two more reports. It sounded
Speaker 4: like the same guy. So I'm pretty sure in my
Speaker 4: own mind that that we had a an the cyrivial
Speaker 4: rapists going And it was October fifth, October ninth, there
Speaker 4: was another one that I heard about it. He m
Speaker 4: get see the damn thing to read about the report
Speaker 4: or anything for a while, and then the first part
Speaker 4: of November, and I think, is you were fifth something
Speaker 4: like that? We had two more, we had one or
Speaker 4: two third in the morning, oh about eleven o'clock at night,
Speaker 4: eleven o'clock at night. Everything is the same except there
Speaker 4: was no actual section. So so at that point I
Speaker 4: had no doubt that we hadn't been there cerial rapists.
Speaker 4: As I said, die with Carol Herman, cause I think, uh,
Speaker 4: we still bouncing around and like I said, we don't
Speaker 4: really attain and told him, but I thought, and they agreed.
Speaker 4: I went to the Lieutenant Route who was the exact
Speaker 4: lieutenant forre de Sectis, and told him about it, and
Speaker 4: he had worked at cerial rapists before he had even
Speaker 4: I remember he just stood up, walked out and started
Speaker 4: making preparations. Then it went upstairs to will be called
Speaker 4: the fourth floor where all the big wigs hung out,
Speaker 4: and they started I guess they they got an interest
Speaker 4: started doing something with it. But from that point and
Speaker 4: then they formed the task force. But I was with
Speaker 4: with Root. I was I was to go to the
Speaker 4: crime scene and go backwards. I was to find out
Speaker 4: what these victims had in common, if anything could lead up,
Speaker 4: explain how he just guy managed to pick 'em what
Speaker 4: it was when he knew about the neighborhoods, And I
Speaker 4: managed to put it together that he proud these neighborhoods
Speaker 4: pretty thoroughly. And they all had a couple of things
Speaker 4: in common with The one thing they all had in
Speaker 4: common was they go to a public place like lunch rooms.
Speaker 4: I think three of 'em were the same pizza parlor
Speaker 4: one summer in the same month, and they were three
Speaker 4: consecutive victims. Uh Alpha Beta market not in here, but
Speaker 4: outside of this county, had three three victims with connected
Speaker 4: with that market in some way, and that that kind
Speaker 4: of thing. A number of 'em had connections with the
Speaker 4: medical by connection, I mean they might've been to the
Speaker 4: hospital visiting a a a patient. They might have worked there.
Speaker 4: It might had a relative working there. They might just
Speaker 4: gone down got prescription filled something. He would have put
Speaker 4: them at the hospital where somebody could see them coming
Speaker 4: and going. He and a number of them connected with schools,
Speaker 4: and every one of 'em, and this end of the
Speaker 4: state had a e Their house or house nearby was
Speaker 4: for sale, just rented, just sold, being remodeled, that kind
Speaker 4: of thing. So I mean tho those all down south
Speaker 4: to by the way, that the most of 'em applied
Speaker 4: down there. And then of course we had four military bases,
Speaker 4: and there was indications he was military because of what
Speaker 4: he wore and how he born stuff. But then there
Speaker 4: was also indications he was a cop. There was indications
Speaker 4: that he was a in construction or a architect. You know,
Speaker 4: just goes on for every It was nothing the point
Speaker 4: of solid to any kind of occupation. And the guy
Speaker 4: knew what we were doing, and that I was convinced of.
Speaker 4: I didn't know why we we test every cop we
Speaker 4: could in this county, because you can't really go outside
Speaker 4: the county start grabbing all the other cops and what
Speaker 4: are you gonna find out? Do they have the same
Speaker 4: blood type? Then what do you do? Nothing? And there's
Speaker 4: too many you can't fall 'em all around, and you
Speaker 4: gotta trust some of 'em, I guess somewhere down the line.
Speaker 4: So we never really had any solid idea what this
Speaker 4: guy did for a living being a cop wasn't surprising because,
Speaker 4: like I said, he knew what we were doing. In
Speaker 4: one particular uh disturbis prowler calling it was, I went.
Speaker 4: I responded to that cause I was out that night
Speaker 4: and the lady said, I thought you were uh guys
Speaker 4: who were already here. I heard the police were ready ill,
Speaker 4: so he had a scanty. As it turns out, he
Speaker 4: could have found his victims, like I said, but just
Speaker 4: gone back to work, got their license plate, ran it
Speaker 4: through DMV, and got their address. And there you go
Speaker 4: that all the neighborhoods had su similar markings through like
Speaker 4: nature areas or green belt areas. They call it main
Speaker 4: thorough affairs. He and he was all over the place,
Speaker 4: and then when they gave descriptions, they were everywhere. But
Speaker 4: most of these descriptions, in fact, all of them really
Speaker 4: came from from people who saw suspicious persons in their neighborhood.
Speaker 4: Suspicious generally being they didn't belong there, or they look
Speaker 4: kind of funny or or something like that. And on
Speaker 4: the named back up on something else that we now know,
Speaker 4: King Clark and the second met a homicide was doing.
Speaker 4: He found a UH roll of microfilms he found and
Speaker 4: had a lot of reports from the seventies they thought
Speaker 4: were gone. In December nineteen seventy two, the UH there
Speaker 4: was a a neighbor and said somebody kept going through
Speaker 4: their backyard and they and they were kicking open the
Speaker 4: gate and breaking the fence, and they went over their
Speaker 4: fence and to the other neighbor's yard and then there
Speaker 4: they beat a poodle to death. That was in seventy two.
Speaker 4: Then in January seventy three there was a rate of
Speaker 4: two sisters and I I think it's the same guy
Speaker 4: because the first thing he said to was all I
Speaker 4: want is your money, which is what he told all
Speaker 4: the other victims. And then the girls shoot. They talk
Speaker 4: about you know, he had a small penis, couldn't maintain
Speaker 4: or couldn't obtain and maintain an erection, no real interest
Speaker 4: in sex, just like this guy was. And then we
Speaker 4: have a series of prowlers, our burglaries, the mo the uh.
Speaker 4: The suspect would lock the front door and the other
Speaker 4: ways come in. He had opened two or three exits.
Speaker 4: He could spend hours in that house and he would
Speaker 4: take coins and piggy banks. They'd break him open and
Speaker 4: he did take stereos and the other expensive items and
Speaker 4: two dollar bills. He was seen three times and described
Speaker 4: as a kid. But they'll stopped at the end of
Speaker 4: March and didn't come back up again. All we had
Speaker 4: cat burgers in there and this this area where they
Speaker 4: were curried in the car ranch Couldov and Carmichael and
Speaker 4: the same exact areas with the ease day of rapist
Speaker 4: would start hitting in seventy six, well in nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 4: who like say he ransackers starts and the same mo.
Speaker 4: There's no question about them. They're exactly the same. And
Speaker 4: the guy seemed on there and with the guise is
Speaker 4: about thirty years old, kind of heavy set. When he runs,
Speaker 4: he lumbers, knees knocked together and then uh. He killed
Speaker 4: Professor Snelling in September of seventy five. In December seventy five,
Speaker 4: par say PD detecting mcgallan confronted him right their face
Speaker 4: to face, shine light in his eyes and his face,
Speaker 4: and the guy shot at McGowan and he shot the
Speaker 4: flashlight out of his hand. He actually hit the the
Speaker 4: lins dead center. That blew up McGowan's face and knocked
Speaker 4: him down.
Speaker 8: Grandimal.
Speaker 4: The guy's gone. He next thing you know, he's back
Speaker 4: down here in June doing rapes and backtracking. We found
Speaker 4: out that he did one in November of seventy five
Speaker 4: and October seventy five. What they now know is I
Speaker 4: had just hadn't confirmed, but I was told us I
Speaker 4: wanted to detectives. His parents lived ron Scridova, near where
Speaker 4: all these crimes went down. So at least I was
Speaker 4: right on that this guy who lived in Rench Cordova
Speaker 4: one time with all these might it looks like he
Speaker 4: was here. I don't know where he was living when
Speaker 4: he was here, but his parents are there. And then
Speaker 4: he went to buy saying all that stuff went on there. Well,
Speaker 4: he was an Exeter cop. Then he comes back up here,
Speaker 4: he goes sport for Auburn, PD, which is about forty
Speaker 4: miles out of Sacramento, and then you get these crimes
Speaker 4: in Cordova, and Citrus Heights and Carmichael. I learned something
Speaker 4: from that. Everybody says that all the pearls say the
Speaker 4: rapists won't hit near his own home. The iritibirg rapist
Speaker 4: hit eight times around his parents' house. This guy he
Speaker 4: had at least four times around his parents' house. So
Speaker 4: that's something you know, may you to put in their
Speaker 4: little books.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that goes against the profile completely, doesn't it?
Speaker 4: Oh? It absolutely does. I never made that connection for
Speaker 4: what I didn't think hell a profile was. I don't
Speaker 4: think when I worked that first case, I don't have
Speaker 4: much use for him anyway, and then the second one.
Speaker 4: But see, he was here in December, did his thing
Speaker 4: up at least through March of seventy three. He c
Speaker 4: he could have been what they called the rancher Cordova
Speaker 4: cat murder. That guy was never caught. But pet he
Speaker 4: turns up and by say, in seventy four, seventy five.
Speaker 4: One other thing about this gentleman, Well, he was here
Speaker 4: in Cordova. He killed four small dogs, Three were poodles.
Speaker 4: One might all four it might have been poodles. One
Speaker 4: of 'em I found one night when it in the
Speaker 4: guy's house. I I thinking back, I think it was
Speaker 4: a terrier, but I don't know. They was beating up
Speaker 4: so bad and was half one of the bed and
Speaker 4: testines were out in southern California. He hit a poodle
Speaker 4: in the eye. I guess the engined it pretty bad.
Speaker 4: And I read the various reports that, uh, somebody walking
Speaker 4: to a German shepherd went to a backyard when when
Speaker 4: the shepherd came out, he had been sliced pretty bad
Speaker 4: with the knife and ran and Rancha Cordova, I there
Speaker 4: was two murders here and the majorities Brian and Katie
Speaker 4: Majory and oh they they stumbled into somebody. It looked
Speaker 4: like they stumbled in the study rapist that they're they're
Speaker 4: not walking their dog in the evening and their dog
Speaker 4: ran and they went in the backyard to get it
Speaker 4: and gone through a broken down fence and it was
Speaker 4: a pool. They found a plu was filled into the
Speaker 4: to a swinging punt. Their swinging pool. And then this
Speaker 4: guy apparently realized he'd been seen. He came out and
Speaker 4: murdered both of 'em. I know when when he left
Speaker 4: the scene, they witnessedit he had a smirk on his face.
Speaker 4: He is one sick puppy.
Speaker 8: When you were looking what was the A lot of
Speaker 8: people know this by now from the incredible uh interest
Speaker 8: in this case, especially recently, but just in the last
Speaker 8: few months as well, but very early on. He had
Speaker 8: an mo and you recognized it. And it was important.
Speaker 8: All of the elements that you recognize, you s you
Speaker 8: talk about like fourteen out of eighteen similarities there, so
Speaker 8: you when you rassd later when you looked at other cases,
Speaker 8: when you went backwards, what were all those key similarities?
Speaker 8: Very very interesting to talk about. I've never read about
Speaker 8: a case where so many reports of unusually small penis.
Speaker 8: I don't think this is going to help this guy's
Speaker 8: fan mail in prison though.
Speaker 4: No, no, And we didn't solicit that information neither. By
Speaker 4: the way, even those girls in January seventy three brought
Speaker 4: it up, we didn't. We were kind of shocked the
Speaker 4: first time we heard it. When they went back over
Speaker 4: some of the original rates. I imagine they asked them
Speaker 4: with the risk of them, they didn't. This guy's in mole,
Speaker 4: Like I say, he was the proud the neighborhoods. He
Speaker 4: knew those neighborhoods really well, and probably everybody had lived there.
Speaker 4: He could make phone calls. At first they would just
Speaker 4: hang up calls. Later they came on scene. And then
Speaker 4: he would you break it at night, And somebody said
Speaker 4: he's an expert at breaking in. Doesn't take anything to
Speaker 4: break into a house. Screwdriver, you can do it. But
Speaker 4: he'd come through a door or window. Very often. He
Speaker 4: would go to the house first and take the screen
Speaker 4: off and just sit in the bushes. In one case,
Speaker 4: they could often put it back, but you could see
Speaker 4: the mud on the window where he'd opened and closed it.
Speaker 4: And when they're in bed asleep, he'd he'd come in
Speaker 4: and uh shine light in her eyes, awake him up.
Speaker 4: He'd always tell 'em only want I'm not gonna hurt you.
Speaker 4: All they want is your money. And when when the
Speaker 4: uh man was in the house, he'd have the girl
Speaker 4: ti man. Then he would tie the girl. Then he'd
Speaker 4: retie the man, and he'd tie it super super tight,
Speaker 4: and there had the circulations cut off their hands and
Speaker 4: literally turned black, and the nerves that'd quit and flo
Speaker 4: some of those people who took 'em days to get
Speaker 4: the full use of the fuel their hands back. And
Speaker 4: then he would uh, he'd leave him the bed he'd ransacked,
Speaker 4: and he'd come back and he'd put take the woman
Speaker 4: out of the bed and some excuse about and didn't
Speaker 4: want them trying to get loose, and put her in
Speaker 4: the living room floor. Then he would put dishes on
Speaker 4: the man's back. He would throw he's always talking in
Speaker 4: the husk wisp almost always talking in the husk, whisper
Speaker 4: through clenched teeth, and then he would uh, you know,
Speaker 4: t if you move, I heard somebody, I'm going to
Speaker 4: kill your girlfriend to cut a year off or something
Speaker 4: like that. And then he'd go back in and ransacked
Speaker 4: the house. And every few minutes you go back and
Speaker 4: check on them, and eventually his assaulted woman. Sometimes he
Speaker 4: had the whole game, but there's nothing he didn't miss.
Speaker 4: Are the times just barely normal?
Speaker 3: He is Ryan here and I have a question for you.
Speaker 6: What do you do when you win?
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Speaker 4: It's like he had no real interest in six every
Speaker 4: one of them, with one exception, said he had a
Speaker 4: real small penis. The one Dril I talked to, and
Speaker 4: it was after the rape, a few days after. You're like,
Speaker 4: I wasn't interested in the sexual assault. They had been established.
Speaker 4: So I set her down, had her living room and
Speaker 4: my partners walking around looking things over, and I explained
Speaker 4: to her, all'm interested in is is you know what happened,
Speaker 4: but let up this what after? I don't care about
Speaker 4: the sex. Well, she started talking and started telling about
Speaker 4: the size of the penis and tell me she was
Speaker 4: an expert. I didn't care about what it was. But
Speaker 4: she kept on and on, and she pointed to a
Speaker 4: quarter and actually and said it's no bigger than a
Speaker 4: no longer than it's about five inches long, and no
Speaker 4: bigger around that quarter. So that stuck with me. That
Speaker 4: was in my report as a matter of fact. But
Speaker 4: they all had something like say like that. Then the
Speaker 4: description stays the same, and all of a sudden the
Speaker 4: registered nurses assaulted and she said it was bigger than
Speaker 4: we thought. It was circumcised. That was a shocker. Then
Speaker 4: the next couple victims said the same thing, and then
Speaker 4: the next couple victims said, now it's about three inches
Speaker 4: long and circumcised. Side what till he's got and the
Speaker 4: description of him, we're almost like always identical. He's always
Speaker 4: pretty solid, pretty good shape. When he ran through the
Speaker 4: backyard and stuff. He just sleep fences like you know,
Speaker 4: like Superman or something. But he, uh, there's a couple
Speaker 4: all of a sudden he had a pot belly and
Speaker 4: that just happened all at once. Then he had a
Speaker 4: calloused hand. A couple of weeks later they had small
Speaker 4: soft hands. He don't go from one to dead in
Speaker 4: just a matter of a few weeks. And they uh
Speaker 4: pretty much stayed the same, I think. And then in
Speaker 4: up in Danville in seventy nine, spending seventy nine, the
Speaker 4: man woke up, looked into the room and he saw
Speaker 4: this guy putting a mask on. Was this this uh
Speaker 4: intended dictim? I understand he's really large, like an athlete
Speaker 4: jumped up and then when they're confronted the guy, so
Speaker 4: his wife had a chance to get out in the
Speaker 4: suspect didn't quite know what to do cause they've been confronted.
Speaker 4: The guy's a coward at heart. Anyway, when his wife
Speaker 4: is gone, read and take this guy's head and twist
Speaker 4: it off. He intended. Victim left and the guy went away,
Speaker 4: and the cops came with the dogs and they tracked
Speaker 4: him into some ivy give him crawling in the ivy
Speaker 4: he had it. It was so recent that the odor
Speaker 4: was too heavy. Had to take dogs back out and
Speaker 4: start over him. By then the guy was gone. Then
Speaker 4: he turned up in the go out of Santa Barbara County,
Speaker 4: and that was in the end of seventy nine, and
Speaker 4: there's a couple there. He went there and did the
Speaker 4: same thing, separate him. The woman could hear him saying,
Speaker 4: I gotta kill him or we gotta kill him, or
Speaker 4: something like that. So she got up and s she's tied.
Speaker 4: Feet and hands are tied. But when he went to
Speaker 4: check on her her husband, she hopped over to the
Speaker 4: door and got out the door and blindfolded, she ran
Speaker 4: and fell against the door. So meantime, the sauce that
Speaker 4: comes out and grabs her and brings her back in. Then,
Speaker 4: well that's happening, and her husband gets out. He goes
Speaker 4: out the same way. He goes out the back of
Speaker 4: the door, yelled at the neighborhood, didn't come out, and
Speaker 4: then jump behind an orange street when this guy came out.
Speaker 4: So the guy comes back in. Well, the woman's not
Speaker 4: gonna stick around over her head cut off, so she
Speaker 4: goes back out and the buying is off. Her feet
Speaker 4: are gone by then, and she's naked running down the
Speaker 4: drive pick As it turns out, there's an off duty
Speaker 4: FBI agent living right next to him upstairs facing their house,
Speaker 4: reading a book, and he heard all this, so he
Speaker 4: came downstairs and the guy's on the bicycle rides right
Speaker 4: by him, and the f guy agent had no idea
Speaker 4: what this guy was. He would have shot him out
Speaker 4: off the bicycle. But anyhow, he gets in his car,
Speaker 4: which couldn't start right away, and what he did They
Speaker 4: He finally spots him, follows him a few blocks and
Speaker 4: the guy drops the bike, goes over fence with no problem,
Speaker 4: and then heads off to a a nature area and
Speaker 4: cops all over and he got away. After that, he
Speaker 4: murdered every victim he had down there, and and I
Speaker 4: I understand he was pretty brutal. He beat their heads
Speaker 4: and so hard they were unrecognizedable pieces of ball are
Speaker 4: on the on the floor and that kind of thing.
Speaker 4: I have. I read some of those reports. I didn't
Speaker 4: see any of that, but someone was talking about I
Speaker 4: forget who it was, and so probably the way it was.
Speaker 4: And then uh, he quit in eighty one, and then
Speaker 4: he came back in eighty six attacking ellow cruise to
Speaker 4: be her pretty bad. And then he's gotten heard no
Speaker 4: more from him since since then. Uh. Down at Exeter
Speaker 4: and Vicelia, the Vicearia ransector. This guy was uncertain. Now
Speaker 4: there's two other murders down there are young girls close
Speaker 4: to Exeter. One of them a guy was convicted and
Speaker 4: one I can get the reports. He condicted nothing. He
Speaker 4: had a notebook found about ten feet from the girl,
Speaker 4: and they booked him on there and convicted him. He
Speaker 4: died in prison on that. And then the good Letta
Speaker 4: they have another one teenage girls. He's also blooded and
Speaker 4: they uh, and somebody was seen running away they thought
Speaker 4: a teenager, but they made no connection between that murder,
Speaker 4: and uh, he stereo the rapists down there by the
Speaker 4: way they call the original life sucker. But what bothers
Speaker 4: me about this whole thing? And and and by say Ransacker,
Speaker 4: I've got a description of the guy given by McGowan,
Speaker 4: a under hypnosis one by uh the professor's melting daughter,
Speaker 4: and I'm pretty similar. McGowan's is detailed. But nowhere up
Speaker 4: here do you find that description of the stereo rapist.
Speaker 4: Up here. He's always well, it's pretty solid, getting run
Speaker 4: of the jump fences and the down there the guy
Speaker 4: falls through them. I guess he's he's pretty lumbering. There
Speaker 4: is two in the descriptions and learn length. I just
Speaker 4: can't live with it, I I said, I think I
Speaker 4: said in the book. I know I've said more than once.
Speaker 4: I'm convinced there is more than one rapist. I see
Speaker 4: nothing to indicate those guys knew each other, and they
Speaker 4: have a copycat rapist. It's not unusual. He stereo rapists
Speaker 4: had a copycat rapist. We know who he was, and
Speaker 4: we had not a shred of evidence to book him,
Speaker 4: not one.
Speaker 8: Now it's about you were retired, as I mentioned in
Speaker 8: the introduction, and then you get a call in your
Speaker 8: retirement and meanwhile, this case. You're living with this still.
Speaker 8: I mean, this never went from your mind, and it
Speaker 8: never went from your how your conscience basically, But you
Speaker 8: get a call in your retirement, and meanwhile, you know
Speaker 8: about DNA advances. You are maybe you don't understand them completely,
Speaker 8: but you're released it. Seeing their development and their progress.
Speaker 8: Tell us about how you become involved again and what
Speaker 8: information has learned, and how they make the connection with
Speaker 8: the original night Stalker and the East Area rapists are
Speaker 8: one and the same.
Speaker 4: My wife said, this case never seems to leave, is
Speaker 4: always coming back. When I retired, I got Chad detective.
Speaker 4: People knew that didn't involve the company. They tell me
Speaker 4: about it, maybe asking me a question or something. And
Speaker 4: then over the years, as the passporce was gone, I
Speaker 4: still get the information if something good came up at
Speaker 4: passed it under somebody. I retired, I continued. Then about
Speaker 4: two thousand two, I think it was again. It's the
Speaker 4: UH think he was under sheriff at the time, might've
Speaker 4: been sheriff, I don't know now. Anyhow, they they he
Speaker 4: learned that they just made some more connections from the
Speaker 4: original livestocker down South. If I say er, I mean
Speaker 4: the uh. He used to rape his stuff here and
Speaker 4: they were putting together a task force. And you wanna
Speaker 4: know if I want to be on it, well, I
Speaker 4: dropped out of the on call reserve. I was just
Speaker 4: done so they they couldn't do it. I couldn't do
Speaker 4: it legally. But then I was interested in it. And
Speaker 4: like you say, information comes up. I can play around,
Speaker 4: but I call myself a cheer leader. Cheer leader and
Speaker 4: rest lors came out, and then he asked me to
Speaker 4: help him with something. So when picked up somebody's garbage
Speaker 4: or something, then he had a good suspect. In fact,
Speaker 4: that guy was up to something. I don't know what
Speaker 4: it was. There was enough information to book him at
Speaker 4: the time, but he's nothing to do with the stay
Speaker 4: rapis it turns out. And then I started getting the
Speaker 4: information that was really good and it will held back
Speaker 4: into this again. So I started working the thing again.
Speaker 4: The DA I mean the DNA. I knew of it.
Speaker 4: I knew kind of what it was, but that was
Speaker 4: really about it. And I was just then, Uh, I
Speaker 4: just sit back and waited hope something would turn up.
Speaker 4: Matter if I recollected UH samples and people, and one
Speaker 4: of 'em I had went to his garbage. I couldn't
Speaker 4: get the guy to help, went to his garbage and
Speaker 4: had to send three times cause the first three times
Speaker 4: it came back for female. We were looking through the
Speaker 4: y and I had an I had a cousin his.
Speaker 4: They didn't know each other, and I got his and
Speaker 4: compared the two, so then I knew I had the
Speaker 4: right right people. As it turns out, it led to
Speaker 4: a UH killer on on death row, David Carpenter. He's
Speaker 4: a UH called a trail side killer. And nobody nest
Speaker 4: to have had anything to do with this series going on.
Speaker 4: It's just they had that freak and there every family
Speaker 4: has one, I guess, and then we just will. I
Speaker 4: just sit back and waited, you know, for the DNA
Speaker 4: for somebody else to find it. Cause when I when
Speaker 4: I could, i'd I would collect it, send it in
Speaker 4: and pay the bill myself. Cause what they do is
Speaker 4: they'll collect the DNA First, the DOJ won't touch it
Speaker 4: cause I'm no longer scorn officer. The second orcadtybout, but
Speaker 4: they put it in a pile so they collect I
Speaker 4: don't know, I think it's a dozen and actual they
Speaker 4: take months and months and then they'll runt 'em all
Speaker 4: at one time. So I just spent the money myself
Speaker 4: and had it done. That's so I knew it was over. Wow.
Speaker 8: You talked about uh inspector uh uh Paul Holes FBI,
Speaker 8: a forensic scientist, Paul Holes and him putting this profile
Speaker 8: together in the end to be able to do this
Speaker 8: and his uh involvement go over twenty five years. Tell us, uh,
Speaker 8: you tell us a little bit more about the book itself, then, Y.
Speaker 8: You know you'd say in this book in the beginning, well,
Speaker 8: I'm not an author, and if you're expecting that kind
Speaker 8: of book, but I have to argue with you about that,
Speaker 8: because it's a very very exciting book because it really
Speaker 8: takes you behind the scenes of the investigator and the
Speaker 8: investigation and everything, all those details and all the incredible information.
Speaker 8: You talk about the the Michelle McNamara's book and the
Speaker 8: quote that she uses for the for the title of
Speaker 8: the book in the dark what he had said, he said,
Speaker 8: he was very dramatic in his when he was in Sacramento,
Speaker 8: and he continued, but especially at that time, so just
Speaker 8: for the record. Tell us what he said about in
Speaker 8: the dark and in the dark in the night, you know,
Speaker 8: real clumsy, But tell us just a little bit about
Speaker 8: what he said and where that came from.
Speaker 4: I don't know where he got it, but it was
Speaker 4: the assault on Greenleaf I think was the name of
Speaker 4: the street. Fifty year old girl. He took kudalla a
Speaker 4: a drainage ditch, and then he was leaving. He was
Speaker 4: he made some threat and if she screamed or yelled
Speaker 4: or something, he says, I'll be I'll be gone in
Speaker 4: the dark. I think's what it was. Yeah, that's the
Speaker 4: exact quote. You'll be quiet, I'll I'll be gone in
Speaker 4: the dark, and and you won't live or whatever it was.
Speaker 4: And he sounded really metal, dramatic, and I thought, this
Speaker 4: guy's been reading some porn someplace, or or I don't know,
Speaker 4: some kind of hard type of thing. And then he
Speaker 4: used it again a couple more times, and that's what
Speaker 4: Michelle picked up on. I don't know where he got it.
Speaker 4: Could have come out of a movie or a play,
Speaker 4: but I'll be gone in the dark like he was.
Speaker 4: He was trying to draw a picture like a drama.
Speaker 4: You'll you're not gonna be around and I'll be gone
Speaker 4: you never find me again. And he came to a
Speaker 4: little k and that's what that was all about. On
Speaker 4: on the book. You're right, I did. We'll put a
Speaker 4: lot in there like that, a lot of enemies out
Speaker 4: of the chef's department. I didn't name any people in there,
Speaker 4: but didn't matter. They could figure out who's who. But
Speaker 4: it was it was no different than any other organization,
Speaker 4: you know, uh, law office or anything else. You got
Speaker 4: people that don't get along, you got ones to do.
Speaker 4: There's always that kind of thing. We uh, we didn't
Speaker 4: really have an organization at the time when I got there.
Speaker 4: One of the guys I I talked to that was
Speaker 4: there in the fifties, late fifties, he described it to
Speaker 4: me as to go along and the stuff I talk about,
Speaker 4: some of the history of the chif Park. It came
Speaker 4: out out of him cause he was there and either
Speaker 4: he experienced it or he knows people that did. And
Speaker 4: when they were hiring people in the fifties up to
Speaker 4: very early sixties, they hired them for their brawn and
Speaker 4: not their brain. I'm not saying anybody was dumb, but
Speaker 4: there really was a large cowtown and you're always fighting somebody.
Speaker 4: So that's what they were. After one uh death, he's
Speaker 4: long gone now. He had been in jail for fighting
Speaker 4: and they called there for him to ask him why.
Speaker 4: I said, well, this guy's missing my wife. Oh that's okay,
Speaker 4: and you gotn't fighting the bar cause over your wife.
Speaker 4: He did the right thing. Who does what they would
Speaker 4: do today? But we because a Dwayne Load took over
Speaker 4: in seventy and he started changing this whole thing and
Speaker 4: organizing it, getting things together. He got real uniforms, but
Speaker 4: we were still behind in some organization. With detectives, it
Speaker 4: was uh. They had their their specialties robbery and homicide
Speaker 4: and so forth. But like in homicide, Carol Davy was
Speaker 4: working homicide, but she still got the sexual assaults. Alex
Speaker 4: Mangus was in there too, and she also worked sexual assaults.
Speaker 4: There was only two women working detectors by the way,
Speaker 4: I think it was seventy six. Uh. Sandy Curtis came
Speaker 4: in and went longer, and more of 'em came into it.
Speaker 4: But we just happened to be standing in the lot
Speaker 4: of where we work. I think I put in the
Speaker 4: book about staying around the water cooler. That's just to
Speaker 4: give a focus point. All I know is that the
Speaker 4: captain came in and and picked five of us, and
Speaker 4: so you're gonna go out and handle this. I think
Speaker 4: it's cause we were just standing there and I got
Speaker 4: picked because I'd been working that one series, and Carol
Speaker 4: got picked because he was female. I had work series
Speaker 4: through and it was about I don't when it was
Speaker 4: after that year. Soon after they they formed a sex
Speaker 4: assault detail for adults, and YE went for the kids
Speaker 4: and things got organized. But when I was looking for
Speaker 4: any related reports to this guy, I started with gossip
Speaker 4: because they will talk about reports, and I picked right
Speaker 4: up one, two. But then they had to go back
Speaker 4: in the to the records. But I didn't do that
Speaker 4: until a couple other drimes occurred. But today it'd all
Speaker 4: be right there and they have it all mapped out,
Speaker 4: probably on a computer. Everything is so technological today.
Speaker 8: You do you talk about in this book? And I
Speaker 8: know the last case that I examined to the last
Speaker 8: book that I featured was the same thing where it
Speaker 8: was amazing despite the enthusiasm and optimism of eyewitness report.
Speaker 8: It's what are your conclusions now? Given you you say
Speaker 8: you had problems with the composite that was released and
Speaker 8: how it was released, and description of hair color, and
Speaker 8: just what's your comment on eyewitness reports? Considering everything and
Speaker 8: now with this arrest justice thing, no go ahead.
Speaker 4: The first thing you gotta remember is they're totally subjectives.
Speaker 4: The victims. They ever saw him. When they did, it
Speaker 4: was just a brief glimpse of the mask type thing
Speaker 4: and not much else. One girl saw him his whole face.
Speaker 4: Hed I what you call it. It's like, I think
Speaker 4: of the scheme ask for the face part cut out.
Speaker 4: There's a name for that. She turned around, solves full face.
Speaker 4: People ask me, well, what kind of details Bill, Here's
Speaker 4: a sixteen year old girl turned around, find this freak
Speaker 4: stand by in here with an axe over her head.
Speaker 4: All she saw it was white eyes and white mouth.
Speaker 4: There's no other description. The first composite was the compositive composites.
Speaker 4: People were talking about suspicious persons they saw in the neighborhood.
Speaker 4: You know, I saw his profile, decide or that side
Speaker 4: and that kind of thing. So they got them all
Speaker 4: together in the public spit too much pressure wanting to
Speaker 4: know what this guy looked like. We didn't know. So
Speaker 4: Captain Stoum put together the composite of all those composites
Speaker 4: to make a composite. To be least, that's the first
Speaker 4: one out there. And well, it's not really all that
Speaker 4: far off. It's it's just basically useless. They had a
Speaker 4: couple up and there. I think that actually you're pretty close.
Speaker 4: We know now we didn't before, but they were everywhere
Speaker 4: in the world. There wasn't much you could do with
Speaker 4: those things.
Speaker 8: In now that you've seen photos like I mean, I
Speaker 8: had one featured on this program here where he has
Speaker 8: dark you know why, his brown curly hair. He he
Speaker 8: doesn't have blonde hair. And it's a photo a side shot,
Speaker 8: but it does sort of resemble the composite if you
Speaker 8: use your imagination, except for the the the blonde hair,
Speaker 8: I would say you had Uh again, your description was
Speaker 8: the dark hair, dark hair on the legs. It wasn't
Speaker 8: the blonde description. So in light of the photos that
Speaker 8: you've probably already seen of DeAngelo, what do you think
Speaker 8: about what was in w that's the material that's in
Speaker 8: your book about that description.
Speaker 4: Uh, there's there's two things I can say about that. One,
Speaker 4: the ten year old boy saw this guy standing over
Speaker 4: a lighted over a a lighted lamp. She said he
Speaker 4: had black hair and blue eyes, and the kid's pretty calm.
Speaker 4: Based on that, I still think I knew who there was.
Speaker 4: But apparently the year I guess, did you have an
Speaker 4: every guy who said that the her blindfold slipped and
Speaker 4: she lifted her head. She could have seen him, but
Speaker 4: she's afraid to. So she ticked out his legs and
Speaker 4: had him in hair and it was light brown and
Speaker 4: not much of it. Then uh, he left one and
Speaker 4: in August I think it was of seventy sixth he
Speaker 4: left the victim's house. He was naked from the waist down.
Speaker 4: Neighbor across the street and saw him. This is in
Speaker 4: the early morning, and he was She thought he was
Speaker 4: wearing white shorts. If he wasn't, he was just naked.
Speaker 4: Now we recovered I fulst and PDM pound to the
Speaker 4: sixty one Valliant in UH January seventy seven. In March
Speaker 4: of seventy seven, the the UH yard that hauled it
Speaker 4: in the till yard was praying it for sale and
Speaker 4: they found a complete change of clothes in there, more
Speaker 4: than one and all the identifying marks were gone. And
Speaker 4: they found some forty five Ammo shotgun Ammo and two
Speaker 4: rank guys like hops Hues and they found a wig,
Speaker 4: a blonde wig. So I've never really known that this
Speaker 4: guy bore a wig. He probably did or all the time,
Speaker 4: I'm guessing basically see the guy today. It's uh, it
Speaker 4: just really hard to say. I I don't know that
Speaker 4: he did wear a wig all the time. I saw
Speaker 4: a guy one night that I still think it was him.
Speaker 4: And if I can find a picture this guy from
Speaker 4: November seventy six, I'll pay if it was him or not.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's very interesting you chronicle that you saw a
Speaker 8: person of suspicion, you backed around, and then you couldn't
Speaker 8: find him, which indicated to you that he was trying
Speaker 8: to avoid you, which made even more suspicious. But yet
Speaker 8: at the same time you had a call to report
Speaker 8: for search warrant for a suspect that looked good for
Speaker 8: the East Dairy rapist, this Art Pinkton. Yeah, you said that.
Speaker 4: I was sure that I was saying we always sure
Speaker 4: that Art was the guys name was actually Art Frosser.
Speaker 4: He was a merely dissorted sex offender. He killed his
Speaker 4: father a brother a few years ago. The arrow through
Speaker 4: the neck lest I heard he was in Taska there
Speaker 4: or someplace. We were head to do a first point him,
Speaker 4: but I was killing a few minutes. Sandy Carlson with me,
Speaker 4: and we drove down to Doing Boulevard, which is between
Speaker 4: It's it connects green Leaf and wood Park. But ten
Speaker 4: at night, and I see a guy walking towards this
Speaker 4: and it's just a little lad to be out walking
Speaker 4: like that. So, you know, driven, having driven squad cars
Speaker 4: for a lot of years, get picked up on it
Speaker 4: as we go by. I just I got it back,
Speaker 4: looks at him. I made a U turn, came back
Speaker 4: and he's gone. Now we're talking less than a minute.
Speaker 4: He had two places to go, wood Park or really
Speaker 4: run fast and down to the green Leaf, which I
Speaker 4: don't think you could do. The house in the corner
Speaker 4: of wood Park and Dowey. The lights went out right there.
Speaker 4: There's a big tree out front. So I shot down
Speaker 4: through to the green Leaf. He wasn't there. I came
Speaker 4: back to the wood Park and I turned down just
Speaker 4: enough to see that nobody walking came back. I remember
Speaker 4: it right now, the lights on my on my car
Speaker 4: hitting that big tree. You know, I don't know what
Speaker 4: I thought. I saw it like. They went back to
Speaker 4: the dewey and I said, well, boys, get out, and
Speaker 4: I took off. I had no intention of leaving, and
Speaker 4: went down about a block or so and I swung around,
Speaker 4: came back up on that on that street where the
Speaker 4: guy parked his car after the rape, when the wood
Speaker 4: park and I turned the street, stopping there, I turned
Speaker 4: right across the curtain, right into that field, and here
Speaker 4: this guy is walking right down the street going the
Speaker 4: other way. Everything in my head, you know, was saying
Speaker 4: get him. I orda knew that I would have, and
Speaker 4: I was given a serious thought to getting out of
Speaker 4: the car and trying to stag that guy. And my partner,
Speaker 4: who's patently new, told me to get her gun out,
Speaker 4: must go. If I hadn't a knowing now what we know,
Speaker 4: if I'd done it, they'd take off the full board
Speaker 4: run and uh, I probably couldn't have caught him. I
Speaker 4: don't know what he had a car nearby where you live,
Speaker 4: I don't know. I suppose they could have got a
Speaker 4: b had out there. We could have found this car.
Speaker 4: But I still think that was very rapist. And his
Speaker 4: hair was kind of a light brown, not true blonde.
Speaker 4: Actually kind of like you might think. This guy looked
Speaker 4: like he pretty well fit the physical So if I
Speaker 4: live the guy being five foot nine, this guy's probably eleven.
Speaker 4: That's something else this guy did on some of the race.
Speaker 4: I remember some of the duty was borning.
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Speaker 6: Today witness.
Speaker 4: He walked kind of slouched or been to knee over
Speaker 4: the shoulders, or he was kind of bow legged and
Speaker 4: at wanted a time. This guy got heil it. I
Speaker 4: know what he was doing.
Speaker 8: Now.
Speaker 4: He knew that somebody's gonna be able to judge his
Speaker 4: hid t. He just tried to disguise it. The six
Speaker 4: foot woman, the six foot victim said he could look
Speaker 4: down the top of his head. Well, this guy's five
Speaker 4: to eleven, so she's slicked six foot. That wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 4: Wouldn't have happened at all. He was He was very clever.
Speaker 4: I never knew if he was smart or not. Some
Speaker 4: people say he's brilliant, but I'm not smart enough to
Speaker 4: recognize brilliant if I see it. And he did nothing
Speaker 4: particularly brilliant. He did anything a coyute or a snake
Speaker 4: might do. Yeah, just called.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: He had it all planned out. His whole life's been
Speaker 4: doing this. He had it all planned out ahead of time.
Speaker 4: I think I really think he treated this whole thing
Speaker 4: both back up on that. I always thought the guy
Speaker 4: was a kid to a totally wrong air, and he
Speaker 4: treated the whole thing like a college. He had a
Speaker 4: college to get it. While I'm gathering, as he started
Speaker 4: at about age thirty one, so I'm gonna make a while. Yes,
Speaker 4: if that was him in seventy two seventy three, then
Speaker 4: he did start younger than that. We just didn't pick
Speaker 4: up on it until he was thirty one years old.
Speaker 8: What do you make of What do you make of
Speaker 8: him being seventy two and it seems all the descriptions
Speaker 8: had him as much younger. What was your Were you
Speaker 8: surprised with that?
Speaker 4: Oh? No, because they've they've I was surprised he was
Speaker 4: that old. That's just my personal opinion. They varied from
Speaker 4: eighteen to thirty five. They were all over the place,
Speaker 4: Just like his height was five foot seven to six
Speaker 4: foot something. They just go everywhere. I was surprised that
Speaker 4: he was at all. It's thirty one. I think they
Speaker 4: tracked him back to seventy six or something like that.
Speaker 4: But he was busy at least four years before that,
Speaker 4: so he started well, he had the stary as a kid.
Speaker 4: He he was doing it in his twenties. They they
Speaker 4: were right on that age, and I was totally off
Speaker 4: by trying not to form any solid opinions of what
Speaker 4: this guy was, or what he looked like, or where
Speaker 4: he worked or anything. But I was certain of the age,
Speaker 4: or reasonably.
Speaker 8: Certain when you found out about his military experience the navy, uh,
Speaker 8: because you talk about there was some indication that there
Speaker 8: was a knot, a diamond knot used and that could
Speaker 8: be used in a in a a nautical application. N
Speaker 8: What did you think about his military and his police
Speaker 8: background when you heard the news who it was?
Speaker 4: The knot? He used a diamond knot on two of
Speaker 4: the k of the incidents that I know of, I
Speaker 4: don't think he used it many of them, and that
Speaker 4: could be used in decorating nautical horses in the names.
Speaker 4: That really didn't mean saying me, just that he knew
Speaker 4: the not boy Scouts in fact, said the Adventist teacher
Speaker 4: their kids that used to used to What I found
Speaker 4: it interesting was I think two occasion, maybe three he
Speaker 4: was described as having a watch cap, which I think
Speaker 4: of as a big n wold cap that the sailors
Speaker 4: might wear. He was seen wearing a heavy jacket like
Speaker 4: the sailors, but always connected with merchant marine and once
Speaker 4: he had heavy gloves like that. We had a UH
Speaker 4: A suspect in a car registered out of the Coast Guard.
Speaker 4: Down in southern California. A Merchant Marine ring was stolen
Speaker 4: and go Letta just before the first double homicide down there,
Speaker 4: and up there we had a victim who's U lived
Speaker 4: literally right opposite the level levee but where the second
Speaker 4: metal water treatment plant is. The next victim was the
Speaker 4: man who was a supervisor of that plant and he
Speaker 4: had been in the coast Guard. Then became a ring,
Speaker 4: so all all I could and then there was a
Speaker 4: UH evidence that they found a suspect print. They think
Speaker 4: it was his print in Goletta after the Offerman Manning homicide.
Speaker 4: Next to it was a small woman's footprint on a
Speaker 4: deck shoe. They don't know they were connected or anything else.
Speaker 4: I just noticed the the uh, the navy thing. So
Speaker 4: what I kept wondering about there was nothing solid to
Speaker 4: go on, is this guy was I s I think
Speaker 4: he's probably Merchant Marine, or it could be Coast Guard.
Speaker 4: Well he was Navy, if I wasn't at all surprised,
Speaker 4: I thought he was a Navy. What I really thought
Speaker 4: was this guy he'd never been in the military, but
Speaker 4: had a fascination with it, or if he had, he
Speaker 4: didn't pick up a whole lot for it. All the
Speaker 4: stuff he did, everybody said, well the special Forces through Well,
Speaker 4: the guy crawled like a bug or a snake out
Speaker 4: through the weeds. He was quiet, super quiet, and victims
Speaker 4: could barely hear him walk in the house if at all,
Speaker 4: And he spent a lot of time in the roof
Speaker 4: of the house. Nobody had ever looked up there. It
Speaker 4: took a while before I did, but I wasn't patrolling
Speaker 4: out there that much then, so I'm not surprised to
Speaker 4: his military I didn't really think he was. I thought
Speaker 4: it was a fascination with it, and I suspected that
Speaker 4: vastination was with these special forces techniques in the military
Speaker 4: just had to be something he did in the sixties,
Speaker 4: probably because he had to join now to get drafted.
Speaker 8: So how important was it his location? The geographic location
Speaker 8: of where he ends up being in Citrus Heights, a
Speaker 8: suburb of Sacramento, and in though I don't know exactly
Speaker 8: when he had this house and the living arrangements, they
Speaker 8: said in the reports that his grandchild and his daughter
Speaker 8: were living at the home in Citrus Heights presently, just
Speaker 8: when he was arrested last week. How significant it is
Speaker 8: his residence in Citrus Heights, for you bought that house.
Speaker 4: Nineteen seventy seven, had been living there ever since. I
Speaker 4: don't know exactly where it is. I never saw the
Speaker 4: street name given out. I know we have retired deputy.
Speaker 4: He doesn't live far from him, and UH said that
Speaker 4: information that person came the same as all the other neighbors.
Speaker 4: This guy was always in rampages. He had three daughters,
Speaker 4: one left, got pregnant and came back somewhere down the line.
Speaker 4: His wife, I heard, was a lawyer, and she packed
Speaker 4: up and moved down south somewhere. And he has relatives
Speaker 4: all over down south southern California. I don't they know
Speaker 4: each other, but according to the UH ancestry type stuff,
Speaker 4: he's got him down there, so almost anywhere he in
Speaker 4: Citrus Heights would be pretty relevant. Simply don't know. I
Speaker 4: don't know where where the house is located.
Speaker 8: Do you know the name of the street, Uh, Canyon
Speaker 8: Oak Drive?
Speaker 4: Yeah? He Uh. That put him within walking distance of
Speaker 4: of two of those victims. I really think if I
Speaker 4: hadn't seen that guy on do you. That night there
Speaker 4: bit a third victim in that area. But after that
Speaker 4: he would hit gener except for Cordova. He would hit
Speaker 4: one area twice. He had once come back later. There
Speaker 4: was UH. When I was doing all that research trying
Speaker 4: to figure out when and where he was gonna hit,
Speaker 4: I had some information. I thought the guy's prowling pretty good.
Speaker 4: He was down here, right up here in this area
Speaker 4: by Bert Kay's walk. There was three streets gwentever here
Speaker 4: Merlindale and might forget together when they had a farm,
Speaker 4: no person and farm get whatever.
Speaker 8: It was tom Gate night.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I went to uh, the UH exec and
Speaker 4: I said, I I think he's gonna hit here. Get
Speaker 4: im proof. Not really just a few reports here and there.
Speaker 4: We had five officers playing clothes wandering the streets at
Speaker 4: night ranch Goodoba. Why not? I said that just there
Speaker 4: for pr purposes putting over there is we right? But no,
Speaker 4: we can't. Well, we had one ray from form would
Speaker 4: kind of figured the guy probably gonna come back in
Speaker 4: that area. So we had that area really really staked out.
Speaker 4: We had things at bar from the military. You put
Speaker 4: these little stakes in the ground. If somebody lost me
Speaker 4: as somebody feed 'em and it sits and lays off
Speaker 4: up just like dog boots. Same thing. Well, that night
Speaker 4: I went to one officer that the I feel like
Speaker 4: he was signed there. I I put him over by
Speaker 4: thorn would I figured, you know, safer for him over there.
Speaker 4: That night he hit on merlindale Gal's name was Linda's.
Speaker 4: He's come out admitted, told the public whose he is. Anyway,
Speaker 4: Then I started going back through the doll like I
Speaker 4: did all there was going back to you there and
Speaker 4: talking to everybody and finding reports. Had I known what
Speaker 4: the reptrol officers knew, we would have had that place
Speaker 4: rat packed with cops that night, like that whole weekend.
Speaker 4: They had even chased the guy on foot one night
Speaker 4: and when one of the alleys strive there, so there
Speaker 4: wasn't any questions he was gonna hit there exactly when.
Speaker 4: I don't know, I thought for some reason that weekend,
Speaker 4: but that was the area that I just didn't have
Speaker 4: the information trying to get it collect at all. Is
Speaker 4: something else.
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 4: Shooting ground on one spotman going there and his pullet
Speaker 4: and read it. Who knows you can blame anybody can
Speaker 4: fall back on me as much as anyone Hm, but
Speaker 4: he was a predictable on on on a Cedarhurst. I
Speaker 4: remember very clearly in my office, I got a report.
Speaker 4: It looks like the guy had been in the house,
Speaker 4: didn't do anything, disturbed something, and then left. And I
Speaker 4: was walking down the door and said Curtis, who just
Speaker 4: got as signed temperant. The detectives walked in and I
Speaker 4: s invited him along. Sid got to this house. It's
Speaker 4: a small house. The driveway and and next to his
Speaker 4: all concrete, and we walked up to a window on
Speaker 4: the side and the small window probably two foot by
Speaker 4: whatever it was, and it's about maybe five feet off
Speaker 4: the ground I can't remember, and you can see a
Speaker 4: dusty footprint right on the wall. But the guy going
Speaker 4: in that way, and it was like in the other
Speaker 4: tennis shoe prints to be found in the street. So,
Speaker 4: based on everything I knew by this point, this was
Speaker 4: in May of seventy seven, the guy who that we're
Speaker 4: looking for, if he's picking these other houses, he'd go
Speaker 4: across the street. He'd take a house a second from
Speaker 4: the corner. So we went to the right to the
Speaker 4: east side, and we find a woman and her daughter
Speaker 4: living there and she's finding all kinds of things strange
Speaker 4: in her house. Phone hang up, phone calls for a while,
Speaker 4: and they just quit. The week or so before, she
Speaker 4: found her door sometimes unlocked, sometimes so out of a jar.
Speaker 4: She found a uh vase or planet or something was
Speaker 4: on the table sitting on the floor. Had told me
Speaker 4: right there, then we had the right house. So we
Speaker 4: told her what to do about all this stuff and
Speaker 4: blocking windows and block and don't leave the key out
Speaker 4: of the format or doormat like she was doing. So
Speaker 4: they confirm it. We went across the street and nobody homes.
Speaker 4: Who go in the backyard and there's a tree in
Speaker 4: the corner. Sure as hell, there's his footprints, a beer
Speaker 4: can and cigarette. But so we go to the guy
Speaker 4: next door who's home, and he said, yeah, I saw
Speaker 4: a blonde here. The guy walk out of there, who
Speaker 4: a couple of weeks eary ten o'clock at night said
Speaker 4: he was no taller, and that's that's I just convinced
Speaker 4: me the guy really was about five or five nine.
Speaker 4: And the guy walked out the Cedar Hurst down just
Speaker 4: a few days before this, maybe we hit the other
Speaker 4: end of the Seedar Hurst. A man who had a
Speaker 4: new job came home, found his uh NEX schedule was gone,
Speaker 4: and the gun and the and the light stand had
Speaker 4: been unloaded and put back dead giveaway of the year. Well,
Speaker 4: a couple of people and detective cut holes of that,
Speaker 4: and he went and shut up about it was all
Speaker 4: over the radio, police police radio. If this guy was
Speaker 4: the guy here, if he was the one and he
Speaker 4: was listening to his own radio, or however he did it,
Speaker 4: he knew ahead the time. Many I I told Curtis said,
Speaker 4: think ish'on not coming back. We we you know, we're
Speaker 4: not gonna do anything here, Notify patrol, notify the gallant
Speaker 4: what to do, and had the luck to win and
Speaker 4: so forth because precautions to take. And here's hell, all
Speaker 4: the prowling that neighborhood stopped and never came back. He knew,
Speaker 4: we knew, he knew we had at both ends. And
Speaker 4: it was not long after that he well, he hid
Speaker 4: in uh down the s Southern gall now s Southern
Speaker 4: Sacramento Parkway, Fourth Parkway. But all that. Not long after
Speaker 4: that he he disappeared for the summer. I don't know
Speaker 4: where he went. There's all kinds of theories, but yeah,
Speaker 4: he was predictable as to win where he was gonna hit,
Speaker 4: and you could tell her where he had been, just
Speaker 4: because the neighborhood start prowling around yourself. There's all sorts
Speaker 4: of prowlers.
Speaker 8: One thing you did go a sorry, one thing you
Speaker 8: didn't predict. And and again I've I saw this on
Speaker 8: a program. Of course, it was a fair amount of
Speaker 8: misinformation included with this story, of this version of the story.
Speaker 8: You talk about this Italian man that was at one
Speaker 8: of the presentations one of the forums that you and
Speaker 8: Carol were at, and Sargeant Irwin or you and Carol
Speaker 8: at least and tell us about this Italian guy and
Speaker 8: what he said, and then in reality what happened seven
Speaker 8: months later.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was the There was two forums in November,
Speaker 4: and there was the second one. Carol and I were
Speaker 4: in there talking. In fact, I pushed her head. She
Speaker 4: went out there when she started getting bogged down in
Speaker 4: some of the details. Because I was doing the NDATH research,
Speaker 4: I would hide joined her. Herman was out side looking
Speaker 4: for whatever he's looking for, and uh we t it
Speaker 4: was all over. This Italian guy, very speaking English company.
Speaker 4: He could trus shoot his mouth off and he's walking
Speaker 4: up and down and tell us how till we were
Speaker 4: and this wouldn't happen italy, and on and on and on,
Speaker 4: and I made some comment turning me to shut up
Speaker 4: and left by the way. So the last form I
Speaker 4: had to attend, which is fine with me, that was
Speaker 4: early November or mid November, November seventy sixth. Then in
Speaker 4: uh late May seventy seven, he and his wife were assaulted.
Speaker 4: And they're the ones who live right next to their
Speaker 4: water treatment plant, divided by that levees all and then
Speaker 4: h that was really about it. It did not happen
Speaker 4: next day like everybody said. It was seven months later.
Speaker 4: And because the next victim worked at that plant and
Speaker 4: had been the coast Guard Ani Marines, I'm not at
Speaker 4: all sure that this guy wasn't coincidental. Probably the year
Speaker 4: was at that meeting, saw that and decided to follow
Speaker 4: him home or whatever he did, and just put it
Speaker 4: off for a while. And there's always the other option
Speaker 4: thing he's so strange. But I was gonna tell you
Speaker 4: he was in the roof from my house. I'm pretty
Speaker 4: sure my uh youngest son about to turn five, I
Speaker 4: think four or five. He came in one night and
Speaker 4: woke us up. And he was really scared. I remember
Speaker 4: that he crawled between us, and I remember what he
Speaker 4: told us. We just couldn't wake up. And then, uh,
Speaker 4: the next morning he said there was a guy hanging
Speaker 4: upside down looking in the window, and he had on
Speaker 4: a one of those watchcaps, he thinks, but he had
Speaker 4: a little string of a beanie on the you know,
Speaker 4: little beanie, a little bobber thing. He said that bomber
Speaker 4: thing was bouncing back and forth. That's how he saw him.
Speaker 4: And then the guy shined a light across the room
Speaker 4: once and then he was gone. To day, he says,
Speaker 4: the guy was also on there. He get him on
Speaker 4: the roof, walking back and forth, making all kinds of noise. Well,
Speaker 4: the next day we went out lucky and there's no prints,
Speaker 4: no marks of any kind. Where we lived in Kragova,
Speaker 4: off to the north of us, across the road, it's
Speaker 4: just all river rock and just dredged when the dreadgers
Speaker 4: came through looking for Goldman. All this big rock it
Speaker 4: and behind this was kind of an L shaped park.
Speaker 4: At each end of that park was a school. At
Speaker 4: one end it was like up to the fifth sixth grade,
Speaker 4: and the other end seventh and eighth grade. It was
Speaker 4: ideal for this guy used to like to do his
Speaker 4: prowling around. So I'm pretty well convinced it was him
Speaker 4: at that time, somebody my son, but recently he was
Speaker 4: looking at one of those messy's boards on the Internet
Speaker 4: full of the trolls and one hand you. One of
Speaker 4: 'em was saying if Shelby's kid existed, and then so
Speaker 4: he he responded, yeah, and the kid did exist, and
Speaker 4: I'm him, and then somebody So I did a Google
Speaker 4: search in that roof. You couldn't hang upside down on
Speaker 4: why I was sure you can't. I used to walk
Speaker 4: on it all the way down to the edge. Wasn't
Speaker 4: nest deep a roof, but it it happened. If it
Speaker 4: was him or not, I'd that money if there's a
Speaker 4: way to prove it. I don't know if he knew
Speaker 4: who I was, or he just uh happened to pick
Speaker 4: that copy did cause it was we were in the
Speaker 4: middle of the block. We weren't either end of it.
Speaker 4: He he, he's really lucky I didn't wake up fully.
Speaker 4: Like I can promise you, I would use my head
Speaker 4: and call the Shehar's office and quietly manipulate if I
Speaker 4: called the shot from where I was in the office
Speaker 4: in the house, and head car has not come to
Speaker 4: that scene, but go a couple of blocks away, then
Speaker 4: walked and surround it. I would have blown the bastard
Speaker 4: away right through the roof, then justified it later a
Speaker 4: little different than it is today. I would be violating
Speaker 4: somebody's rights if I'd known who it was. If I
Speaker 4: don't how bad he was gonna get, I would just
Speaker 4: shot him.
Speaker 8: Certain Yeah, what do you make of What do you
Speaker 8: make of the nineteen eighty w given that you say
Speaker 8: he bought this house in seventy seven and Citrus Heights,
Speaker 8: what do you think of the crimes ending in eighty
Speaker 8: one and then the number one he moves to southern California.
Speaker 8: We know why the just the heat was on, the
Speaker 8: heat from you guys was on, so eighty one to
Speaker 8: eighty six. What do you make that? And what do
Speaker 8: you make of the motive? There was one indication that
Speaker 8: he said early on in the rapes that he was
Speaker 8: laughed at. Again. I hate to do this, but over
Speaker 8: his penis size. But really, what do you think of motive?
Speaker 8: And what do you think of this? Eighty one to
Speaker 8: eighty six break. What does it.
Speaker 4: I think the motive is only a psychiatrist is gonna
Speaker 4: be able to tell you what that is, because all
Speaker 4: this might might face is card around hundred and done it.
Speaker 4: He's just making noise. I don't think he even cared.
Speaker 4: He was violent right from the start. He killed all
Speaker 4: those dogs. I guess poodles make too much noise. Because
Speaker 4: he beat him to death. I mean when I say
Speaker 4: beat the ar mean this club knocked him out. He
Speaker 4: really beat him. I don't know what he was like
Speaker 4: before that, But then it was in the neighborhoods wherever
Speaker 4: he lived, in the same way when he got down south.
Speaker 4: It's a wild guess. I do know that somebody knows him.
Speaker 4: Said right about then, he started getting really fat, really
Speaker 4: put on the weight, if you think about it. He
Speaker 4: was getting a little bit older too, so it wasn't
Speaker 4: quite so he easy to go crawling through the bushes,
Speaker 4: You're leaping over fences, that kind of thing. When he
Speaker 4: went back in eighty six, I'm I can only make
Speaker 4: a wild guess that he was down there for some
Speaker 4: other reason, and he just thought he would just have
Speaker 4: a little more fun one more time, and went out
Speaker 4: and brutally beat that young girl to death. But I mean,
Speaker 4: it's just I don't know enough about him, and nothing
Speaker 4: I saw in the investigation and would tell me what
Speaker 4: he was doing or why he told all almost all
Speaker 4: the diculams. I know he's from here. I know you
Speaker 4: from there. I saw you at the prom, he told Jane.
Speaker 4: I saw it at the Officers Club, And it just
Speaker 4: one of the one place he asked the girls, where
Speaker 4: is the doctor keep his drugs? For the information in
Speaker 4: the house, he's searching it. He knows their doctors. He
Speaker 4: knows all that already. So he he never told any
Speaker 4: of them the truth about anything. He talked about his
Speaker 4: van by his camp by the river. He murdered somebody
Speaker 4: in Bakersfield. He might have I don't know. And I say,
Speaker 4: why he stopped, why he said those things, the way
Speaker 4: he said those things, it's just a blow smoke. Why
Speaker 4: he stopped is just anybody's kissed. I don't know if
Speaker 4: he would even know, But evidently he really put on
Speaker 4: the weight in the eighties.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, it looks like well again, I shouldn't even
Speaker 8: weigh in. It looks like, you know, he has a family,
Speaker 8: at least he has his family home. So is his
Speaker 8: life changes at some point which probably affects how he
Speaker 8: does and conducts his crimes, and and when and and how,
Speaker 8: I would think to a certain extent. So I guess
Speaker 8: people will look at that, and we'll get the reports
Speaker 8: on that. What was the most surprising thing when this
Speaker 8: arrest was made? You say you weren't as surprised because
Speaker 8: you thought it was imminent. But what was the biggest
Speaker 8: surprise for you?
Speaker 4: I think it's just like a revelation of who were
Speaker 4: looking at that he was so different to what I
Speaker 4: anticipated that he in fact was did I say it
Speaker 4: ran said? Or because the because of the descriptions, I
Speaker 4: didn't think they were the same I I said, I
Speaker 4: think even I might have said in the book, I
Speaker 4: don't know. They either knew each other or they really,
Speaker 4: you know, were aware of each other, or they knew
Speaker 4: each other. They might have been related. I'm not convinced. Yeah,
Speaker 4: that's not the case, cause the the VI, the physical
Speaker 4: descriptions of so Veri Dmos are exactly the same thing.
Speaker 4: Not many differences in those things at all. He uh,
Speaker 4: I don't know this this guy uh conundrum. I guess
Speaker 4: that he was a cop didn't really surprise me. I
Speaker 4: wouldn't have been surprised either way that he was in
Speaker 4: the military. That didn't fully surprise me, although I didn't
Speaker 4: think he was, but there was it had been uh well,
Speaker 4: actually there's nothing to and they really strongly indicated he
Speaker 4: had any one particular occupation. Could you look look reports
Speaker 4: various things that they they all tied together on this train.
Speaker 4: He was pretty clever. He had his disguises. I'd really
Speaker 4: liked to know where he got all those different cars
Speaker 4: and at least two of 'em had license plates Bridge
Speaker 4: Chunk cars on it was out of Low Die and
Speaker 4: one I don't know, somewhere else country across the county.
Speaker 4: He bounced around a whole lot.
Speaker 8: He used a lot of techniques to avoid apprehension, like
Speaker 8: it seemed there were reports of accents that they were
Speaker 8: very sure uncertain that he used various accents, a Mexican
Speaker 8: accent and other accents. So he had some techniques to
Speaker 8: throw off law enforcement, didn't he This guy I couldn't.
Speaker 4: Decide at the time. I thought, damn, I kind of
Speaker 4: thing now that he thought he was quite some kind
Speaker 4: of a good actor, and he tried to some if
Speaker 4: I thought a couple of times he picked up a
Speaker 4: hint of a Mexican accent. I think once they said Oriental,
Speaker 4: once or twice German, just handsome accents. If I started
Speaker 4: looking at sometimes that people in the acting profession, I
Speaker 4: don't mean famous, access to these acting clubs and that
Speaker 4: kind of thing. He tried that all the time. And
Speaker 4: and like he talked about his van and l camping
Speaker 4: by the river, and I don't know he uh, he
Speaker 4: tried what he could. What he did do is he
Speaker 4: would throw a little red hearings. He left behind some
Speaker 4: school papers he probably took from somebody and left them
Speaker 4: out there a scene over and after you hear which
Speaker 4: town in Contra Costa County at some place, and it
Speaker 4: was called the school papers, the rant papers. Paul Hol's
Speaker 4: been a great deal of time effort running down the
Speaker 4: uh uh a sketch in there. There was a housing development.
Speaker 4: I think he even figured out what house development was.
Speaker 4: He left behind a badge, was a state police badge
Speaker 4: or something up picture in that book up here what
Speaker 4: it is, and that couldn't be traced anywhere. He left
Speaker 4: behind a jacket. He was sold in three stores, one
Speaker 4: in Sacramento and two in San Francisco, the one in
Speaker 4: Sacramento never sold it on the two in Si Francisco.
Speaker 4: Who I think one of us said they might have
Speaker 4: he changed masks all the time. He uh, he didn't
Speaker 4: think he could different kinds of cars. He just sometimes
Speaker 4: he would dress in the military uniform. Like once he
Speaker 4: had blout boots. He wore fatigues. The knight is the
Speaker 4: I killed across that dog beaten to death. They said
Speaker 4: they saw a sixteen eight year old black he had
Speaker 4: kid had fatigues, jump off the roof, run right across
Speaker 4: the backyard and rover the fence and gone, So that
Speaker 4: you know, that kind of stuff makes you think you're
Speaker 4: looking for a kid. And any way, he talked, acted
Speaker 4: pretty often. Did I don't know. He's probably more sophisticated
Speaker 4: than I thought.
Speaker 8: Right now, he's when you talk clear, sorry, when when
Speaker 8: you talk about sophistication too, it's aid admirable. And Catherine
Speaker 8: Casey author Katherine Casey, author of him plaint citis, has said,
Speaker 8: you know that cases that you worked on in Texas,
Speaker 8: the evidence gathering was not as careful as was here
Speaker 8: so that they could have DNA samples to be able
Speaker 8: to be tested, so he used a mask and he
Speaker 8: did avoid a lot of the things. Even though he
Speaker 8: had no idea of DNA, he still was careful do
Speaker 8: not leave evidence that he knew all that that time
Speaker 8: was available to be determined.
Speaker 4: Everything they could. They collected hairs, which most of them
Speaker 4: can be dog hairs. They collected cigarette butts, beer cans,
Speaker 4: soda cans. They got a band aid once we got
Speaker 4: his blood off of victim's hair, just a small spot,
Speaker 4: so they hit all that and then they collected the sperm.
Speaker 4: But they did what to do with that side of
Speaker 4: blood type? Really, you know, I don't know. They wighted
Speaker 4: something else to connect it. But in nineteen ninety two,
Speaker 4: one my last management little management meetings, they had a
Speaker 4: new core here and he said he's rearranging everything and
Speaker 4: didn't have room's story or anything. He said he had
Speaker 4: a vial of the of the East. He stayed rape
Speaker 4: the sperm. He's gotta throw it out. My first thought
Speaker 4: was I'll take it home and freezing. Thought. I didn't
Speaker 4: want to grabbing my freezer. My wife would killed me anyway,
Speaker 4: So I just I didn't say anything. What did you know?
Speaker 4: One of those do over things that I got a million,
Speaker 4: I'd take it if I had to, I'd go rind
Speaker 4: of a freezer someplace, I'd put it in there. Then
Speaker 4: today they could confirm and we know it is that
Speaker 4: they could confirm it the year and this guy did
Speaker 4: the same thing just by the sperm.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 4: Count A Costa County did the DNA test on three
Speaker 4: of their victims, and nobody else in northern California did
Speaker 4: on any of them. But those three tied exactly, you know,
Speaker 4: the ones down south. So there's there's no question there
Speaker 4: about who did what because they collected go ahead, so
Speaker 4: no go ahead. They collected every piece of evidence they could,
Speaker 4: tons of finger passed. They left nothing behind.
Speaker 8: You're talking about Larry Detective Larry Crompton, among others at
Speaker 8: A Costa Country, Costa County, Costa County, pardon me. And
Speaker 8: he's also the author of Sudden Terror. And you were
Speaker 8: the only people up to just recently that had written
Speaker 8: any books.
Speaker 2: And I have.
Speaker 8: Lyman Smith and Charlene Smith's niece, her uncle and aunt
Speaker 8: were killed in this and she under a pseudium and
Speaker 8: pen has written a couple of books. But so you
Speaker 8: were talking about Larry Crompton and their testing of DNA
Speaker 8: in this particular case, What piece of DNA evidence was tested?
Speaker 8: Tell us a little bit more about what Paul Hols
Speaker 8: developed and from what. Tell us a little bit more
Speaker 8: about that what you know from that DNA.
Speaker 4: Paul Holes is an actual scientist. They referred to him
Speaker 4: as their resident geek. He's the one that took the
Speaker 4: DNA the year and made a profile out of it.
Speaker 4: He said he took as far down whatever that meant,
Speaker 4: numbers he could get while he was still in that
Speaker 4: did he ask for a transfer to the DA office
Speaker 4: as an investigator. He really wanted to work this case.
Speaker 4: I guess he had to work the other stuff at
Speaker 4: the same time. And then from from Contra costs. I'm
Speaker 4: assuming it was Spermise where they got the DNA, cause
Speaker 4: Pipe never never heard. I got the report somewhere, I
Speaker 4: just don't remember reading it. But then Holes took this
Speaker 4: stuff and then they pumped into some sort of program
Speaker 4: and did their They went surfing on the internet. I
Speaker 4: gather today there are some sites that people can put
Speaker 4: in their DNA hoping with someone to come along and
Speaker 4: spot it and recognize the relative. Well, he went surfing
Speaker 4: and they found that they found some people that had
Speaker 4: I think ten or twenty markers that are similar, well
Speaker 4: how many markers, I don't know, if it's like they're
Speaker 4: the ten or twenty cousin or something. So they started
Speaker 4: doing actional geology research going back to these people, and
Speaker 4: they went back quite a ways and they they found
Speaker 4: one person that looked pretty good up at Oregon. They
Speaker 4: tested him and it wasn't But then when they got
Speaker 4: to the to the living people, then they had to
Speaker 4: put that aside and start going through modern technology, the
Speaker 4: the the uh, various sites on the Internet and there's
Speaker 4: a bunch of 'em, and then there's a couple too,
Speaker 4: and Lexus and Nexus to cops use not and then
Speaker 4: whatever real estate've got. And they started doing that, and
Speaker 4: they started narrowing it down to various people eliminated them,
Speaker 4: and they got they getting pretty close to nothing, which
Speaker 4: makes sense cause you can't have everybody involved. And then
Speaker 4: they got down to this guy, and then they saw
Speaker 4: he'd been a compet Exeter, and they got a little
Speaker 4: bit interested in there was a compet Aubert. You're pretty
Speaker 4: sure they had him. They just had to go ahead
Speaker 4: and finish it all out. And Paul Hols has one
Speaker 4: engineer engineered that whole thing, and again they'd been working
Speaker 4: on it for about a year, been quite around probably
Speaker 4: though you'd never heard from Paul Holes anymore that he
Speaker 4: retired and just went off, you know, off the record.
Speaker 4: You don't seem or here he will now, I guess.
Speaker 4: But he and those case deserve a lot of kudos
Speaker 4: for this, I mean a lot of them.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was very interesting to Paul
Speaker 8: Holes be in the face of the FBI as a
Speaker 8: spokesperson and to me, uh, maybe I I'm privy to
Speaker 8: more information just from these authors and like yourself, But
Speaker 8: it looked like this was a really unique response by
Speaker 8: the FBI, how optimistic it seemed they were. And then
Speaker 8: with the advances of DNA, with the familiar DNA advances specifically,
Speaker 8: and I was told by An Penn and another author
Speaker 8: about these advances in the last year or so, so
Speaker 8: it it seemed to me that there was this real optimism,
Speaker 8: not you know, just dramatic optimism for a book's sake
Speaker 8: or a television program's sake, or just to continue, you know,
Speaker 8: the investigation and to reach out to the public. But
Speaker 8: it seemed like it was definitely optimistic that they would
Speaker 8: have results in this, and you talk about then they
Speaker 8: pray it, no go ahead.
Speaker 4: None of those guys were interested in writing books and movies.
Speaker 4: It didn't occur in idiom. I don't think the reward
Speaker 4: doesn't apply to them. They couldn't get it anyway because
Speaker 4: of their job. They were out to solve this four
Speaker 4: decades old series. It actually turns out much probably five
Speaker 4: or six decades. So they were out to solve that.
Speaker 4: And I didn't talk to all of them, a couple,
Speaker 4: but they're very, very enthused. In fact, the morning after
Speaker 4: the guy was booked, I got to call him the
Speaker 4: a's office and he said, was the first one he's
Speaker 4: gonna call it. He got really excited about it, pretty enthused.
Speaker 4: They feel really well. I think of it as we
Speaker 4: were working at the time, like we were new cars
Speaker 4: at the time, a new model, but we really got
Speaker 4: old fast. What's going on today was literally star trek.
Speaker 4: Thinking back then today you got the new model, the
Speaker 4: younger guys, and they got all these bells and whistles
Speaker 4: and all the technology. Most of I don't even know
Speaker 4: what the hell with is much less I understand it,
Speaker 4: and it's what brought him down was modern technology. He
Speaker 4: was pretty clever. But back to your point, these guys
Speaker 4: were all pretty excited, and well a couple of I
Speaker 4: talk to you weren't that excited, but they were really
Speaker 4: glad to relieve. And one of them said the same
Speaker 4: thing I did. Okay, this is over. What's the next one?
Speaker 4: Keep going from there?
Speaker 8: Well, well you can say what's next? I think, just
Speaker 8: my what do I know? But maybe I'll ask who
Speaker 8: you think this looks like? You know, the law enforcement
Speaker 8: has had better times. It's a little bit, we'll say, understatement,
Speaker 8: be leaguered. This is a really, really great positive law
Speaker 8: enforcement story, isn't it. It's not just a great true
Speaker 8: crime story that everybody now is trying to catch up
Speaker 8: and everyone's so interested. This is a fantastic day for
Speaker 8: law enforcement, isn't it. And the FBI, well this is I'm.
Speaker 4: Not sure how much the FBI had to do with it.
Speaker 4: They never worked it before because you have to have
Speaker 4: a federal crime before they get involved, right. They they
Speaker 4: led their credentials for prestige and they come up to
Speaker 4: sixty thousand dollars reward, which I think I come across
Speaker 4: two people that were interested in that. The rest of
Speaker 4: 'em didn't really care. They wanted this guy out of here.
Speaker 4: But he wa, you're right, it's a positive achievement in
Speaker 4: the in today's climate and all the shooting's going on
Speaker 4: and so forth, he's finding few and who people wanna
Speaker 4: be a cop? Yeah, I looked it up. I remember
Speaker 4: looking up how many cops were killed ryan a duty
Speaker 4: back in the sixties and seventies. So I looked it
Speaker 4: up again recently. In uh late sixties, that started going up.
Speaker 4: They had four killed at one time he cast the junction.
Speaker 4: By nineteen seventy four, it was two hundred and fifty
Speaker 4: six or fifty eighty year had been killed in one year.
Speaker 4: It's been going down ever since. I think it's down seventy,
Speaker 4: but that doesn't mean a whole lot. There's still so
Speaker 4: many people out here that anti cop unless they really
Speaker 4: need some help. So this has got to be a
Speaker 4: big boost. In fact, on those mess these boards, I'd
Speaker 4: been told repeatedly that the guy was the cop and
Speaker 4: the cops were trying to protect him. Every cop I
Speaker 4: knew Woul had turned in his own father. If you
Speaker 4: had thought he was the theorepist, sure sure.
Speaker 8: Yeah, see and was interesting too. I mean, it's just
Speaker 8: very very interesting.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 8: They said that took place. The arrest took place on
Speaker 8: National DNA Day, which commemorates the discovery of the DNA
Speaker 8: double helix. I said, Wow, that's a Hollywood moment right there.
Speaker 4: Well, they probably waited for that too, probably if somebody
Speaker 4: was aware it was coming and just made that movement.
Speaker 4: I wanted to be one to put the cuffs on
Speaker 4: this guy. Two things that want. I want to be
Speaker 4: when he stepped out the door and see if he
Speaker 4: recognized me, because if he did, he don't up. I
Speaker 4: wanted to put the cuffs I could him for a
Speaker 4: proper fit. But I asked the officer about that. He said, well,
Speaker 4: he said, the guy said these cuffs are tight, And
Speaker 4: the cops response was, oh really Yeah.
Speaker 8: I was gonna just say, yeah, you have to make
Speaker 8: sure his cuffs were extra tight.
Speaker 4: Oh I would and flesh it had he had a
Speaker 4: good complaint coming. Yeah. I know that you ad.
Speaker 8: I'm sure that you sorry. I'm sure that you can't
Speaker 8: make a prediction, but I'm sure that you want to
Speaker 8: make a prediction, or at least you will make a
Speaker 8: prediction and see how it comes true or not. What
Speaker 8: do you think he's gonna do? I mean, some people said,
Speaker 8: do you think he's gonna confess? And I have said,
Speaker 8: I don't think so. But what do you think?
Speaker 4: Well? I think his the fifth lawyer is going to
Speaker 4: do what she can to give him off, and if
Speaker 4: she does, she's gonna hate herself and she knows it.
Speaker 4: And I think once they once he's uh through a
Speaker 4: pre lamb and they hold him over and maybe he'll
Speaker 4: wait till he's being convicted, but he go cop out
Speaker 4: to everything. I think his ego would just make him
Speaker 4: talk and talk and talk about it won't be until
Speaker 4: you know there's there's no chances getting off. He said,
Speaker 4: know that already, But then he'll he'll spill the beans
Speaker 4: on the whole thing.
Speaker 8: Do you think so? Yeah, yeah, I do?
Speaker 4: But what interesting? On to wall? And he drive there
Speaker 4: was an assault in seventy seven in the seventy eight
Speaker 4: I remember now, and uh he uh, he got the
Speaker 4: man in bed and he heard some heard a horn
Speaker 4: walk outside. I think it was like three times, and
Speaker 4: then uh, the woman heard it too. It was he
Speaker 4: has ought over seventy seven and then they heard like,
Speaker 4: let me have the numbers wrong but they hit three
Speaker 4: knocks at the door and three knocks at the window,
Speaker 4: and then she heard him suspect whispering to a woman
Speaker 4: on the outside of the inside the window is whispering back.
Speaker 4: If they're communicating, why he didn't let her in? I
Speaker 4: don't know, But the question is who is that woman
Speaker 4: and why were they whispering? They never know. But this
Speaker 4: guy was he married at that time? I don't know.
Speaker 4: But it's something nobody's ever bothered to to you, uh
Speaker 4: talk about. They just sort of ignore it. I always said,
Speaker 4: you could have six guys to on these crimes, and
Speaker 4: one of 'em just nailed on DNA. He's gonna get
Speaker 4: creative for all of them. And I'm surious defense lawyer,
Speaker 4: you'll jump on that one too. Anyway, back to your question.
Speaker 8: Y, you talk about the the lawyer defending him too.
Speaker 8: It it's interesting too that th because this is a
Speaker 8: high profile case. Again, not a sympathetic case, but it's
Speaker 8: a high profile case, which makes it different. There is
Speaker 8: no sympathy gonna be expressed for this guy. And you say,
Speaker 8: it's very interesting that you say you think he's gonna talk.
Speaker 4: Oh, sorry, go, I think it's his ego I think
Speaker 4: he wants to brag about it. Most of them do.
Speaker 4: I talked about how good they were and how they
Speaker 4: are smart the cops for so long, and it was
Speaker 4: just some fluke that got him and his lawyer got
Speaker 4: I'm convicted. H He has nothing to gain by not talking.
Speaker 4: He hasn't got a humanitarian bone in his body that
Speaker 4: he might do it be for his benefit nobody.
Speaker 8: Else this guy's got unlike anybody else that they because
Speaker 8: I mean, I never got the Zodiac. This this renewed interest. Finally,
Speaker 8: it almost catches up to the Zodiac level of interest
Speaker 8: I think now. And I told the producer, I said,
Speaker 8: this story is huge, But this story is gonna get
Speaker 8: much much bigger. Just you see the message boards, you've
Speaker 8: seen all the interest you've seen that. I don't know
Speaker 8: if you've seen the program, but you know of the
Speaker 8: programs that have been recent. Yeah, there's gonna be a
Speaker 8: lot of information about this story and a lot of
Speaker 8: people looking into every single conceivable thing. Where he lived,
Speaker 8: where he worked, what he did. This is gonna be big,
Speaker 8: isn't it.
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 8: It is.
Speaker 4: Here's a couple of things that the Preston hasn't talked
Speaker 4: much about. Maybe they have in between. If I said
Speaker 4: Exeter back in these I guess it was the early seventies.
Speaker 4: I think when he was down there. Anyway, they had
Speaker 4: two two young girls, teenagers that were murdered, not at
Speaker 4: the same time, and some way apart. The guy was
Speaker 4: convicted for one. They found it, as I understand that
Speaker 4: I've read reports. I understand they found his notebook, like
Speaker 4: tim feet the crime scene and they convicted him on that.
Speaker 4: He died in prison. One I'm going to pick up
Speaker 4: as his indications is whoever killed that girl killed one later,
Speaker 4: same guy. So this guy just gotta wrote it and
Speaker 4: died in prison. Then you go to southern California and
Speaker 4: I don't have the names. I I read the report
Speaker 4: on that when a young girl was budgeting to death
Speaker 4: near Goletta and a teenager was seeing running the area
Speaker 4: and he took some junk jewelry or something from it,
Speaker 4: and they said, well, that's not the year. I bet
Speaker 4: it was, but those things are gonna be coming up.
Speaker 4: And now a woman's come forward. And Exeter when the
Speaker 4: guy was a compet and said, yeah, he put me
Speaker 4: in the squad car, he took me out here and
Speaker 4: rape me. So If that's true, you're gonna see some
Speaker 4: more of them coming up. So this guy's been really acting.
Speaker 4: A lot of people coming forward. E said it was
Speaker 4: a hot homicides. All the statue imitations there, they're long gone. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: So you're right. You're gonna hear a lot more about
Speaker 4: this case quite a bit, and then somebody's gonna write
Speaker 4: a book about the whole thing. And I wish them, well,
Speaker 4: you get into so complicated in depth. I wouldn't have
Speaker 4: the brain power for well.
Speaker 8: I mean you you were like you laid the groundwork.
Speaker 8: Larry Crompton wrote a book. You wrote a book. Other
Speaker 8: people have written books. Even Michelle McNamara's book will add
Speaker 8: to the I guess for further investigation. I hate to
Speaker 8: do this, but I want to just clear up something
Speaker 8: from the internet as well. The TMZ reported last week
Speaker 8: that the suspect was named in Michelle McNamara's book. I
Speaker 8: am not taking anything against Michelle McNamara's book. Then now
Speaker 8: other reports are attributing that her book was crucial. Just
Speaker 8: for the record, tell us about that.
Speaker 4: About the books. Crompton wrote his book for a Sudden tear.
Speaker 4: He didn't add anything to the investigation. He explained what
Speaker 4: he knew was going on when it came to Sacramento.
Speaker 4: He had to put in some fiction because he didn't
Speaker 4: know he wasn't here. And I wrote my book. I
Speaker 4: wrote for different reasons that I put in fact, but
Speaker 4: he didn't have it, and I did the report where
Speaker 4: he didn't. I didn't ad anything new to that investigation.
Speaker 4: What we did, both of us, was provided a platform
Speaker 4: for somebody who wanted to go there and work that
Speaker 4: case or know all about it. They could to read
Speaker 4: our reports. You either wanna either book, and they'll get
Speaker 4: pretty much all the information they need. This is what happened.
Speaker 4: If I wanna continue the investigation, this is what to do.
Speaker 4: McNamara came in and I talked to her many many times,
Speaker 4: and sometimes we're friendship and times sometimes we weren't. In
Speaker 4: her book, we were just getting over near the spot.
Speaker 4: She didn't add anything new to that investigation at all.
Speaker 4: Happened nothing, and she didn't name a suspect. The person
Speaker 4: who gets credit for finding out who that is is
Speaker 4: Paul Holes and the guys on the team that worked
Speaker 4: with him to track back the DNA. That's where it
Speaker 4: all came from. So as the DA and Sacramento DA,
Speaker 4: Schubert said when asked if Mac and Mary help, she said,
Speaker 4: had a word. No, it had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 4: All that is hype put up by her husband to
Speaker 4: call your Harper magazine the Hollywood and wants to do
Speaker 4: a movie that kind of thing. Yeah, I'll say this,
Speaker 4: My wife's so have to do it. But somebody ask
Speaker 4: me all these things, and being said about her solving
Speaker 4: the case, I'm thinking, you know, no matter how you
Speaker 4: package it, BS is still BS. Yeah, her her book
Speaker 4: in effect, you could read that book. She didn't like
Speaker 4: me at the particular time, and she readly liked Paul Holes.
Speaker 4: But all three books are nothing more than the platform
Speaker 4: somebody that wants to jump in there and work that investigation. Yes,
Speaker 4: so again again, like you say, you go ahead. I
Speaker 4: just reemphasized it.
Speaker 8: Sorry you in your purpose too, is not your purpose
Speaker 8: was to further this investigation. Your purpose was that this
Speaker 8: was in your head and you were asked and you
Speaker 8: were called upon. This is not your natural state to
Speaker 8: be able to want to do this. But then again, uh,
Speaker 8: the thing is, it's an incredible book. It's an incredible
Speaker 8: book for the the true crime fan now is is
Speaker 8: more sophisticated, and I want people to know about this
Speaker 8: book that instead of a book that all it has
Speaker 8: is hype, We've got to go back to you, the
Speaker 8: integral part of the early investigation, the person that recognized
Speaker 8: things that other people didn't, and the person that presevered
Speaker 8: and fought on with this and kept this investigation. Like
Speaker 8: you say, you're still working this thing right to the
Speaker 8: very end. So I want to congratulate you on the
Speaker 8: outcome of this, and also I want to thank you
Speaker 8: for coming on and talking about your again landmark book,
Speaker 8: Hunting a Psychopath, The stere Rapists, Original Nightstalker Investigation. The
Speaker 8: original investigator speaks out. I want to thank you very
Speaker 8: much Richard for this interview today.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you. If I can help out, Hey, Len,
Speaker 4: I'm glad I did.
Speaker 8: Well. I want to thank you very much and hope
Speaker 8: to speak to you again and again. Congratulations. A huge
Speaker 8: day for law enforcement and the huge day for all
Speaker 8: the dedicated detectives and law enforcement that were able to
Speaker 8: capture this very very interesting but despicable serial killer. Congratulations
Speaker 8: and have a great night.
Speaker 4: They do the same.
Speaker 8: Bye bye, Thank you.