1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to this after life. 2 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 2: Everybody really excited to have you joining us today, as 3 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,000 always in your host Edam Gainwell, I'm thrilled to be 4 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,199 joined today with doctor and Laura Lecon. She's the founder 5 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,199 of nest Labs and the author of a really really 6 00:00:11,199 --> 00:00:13,519 cool fourth coming book I'm excited to dive into today 7 00:00:13,519 --> 00:00:16,519 with y'all. It's called Tiny Experiments how to live freely 8 00:00:16,519 --> 00:00:18,519 in a goal obsessed world, and this is something that 9 00:00:18,559 --> 00:00:21,519 definitely resonated with me as someone who is both goal 10 00:00:21,559 --> 00:00:23,760 obsessed and trying to get out of that circuit. 11 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: So and Lork, thank you so much for joining me 12 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:26,559 on the podcast today. 13 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to 14 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:31,120 chat out. 15 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,359 Speaker 2: So one thing that I'm really particularly excited to talk 16 00:00:33,359 --> 00:00:36,159 with you about is the way that your work intersects 17 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,359 with some of the most pressing questions that a lot 18 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:40,039 of us are facing today, and things like how do 19 00:00:40,079 --> 00:00:42,000 I find fulfillment in a world that I think it's 20 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,079 pushing me in one direction, you know, go get this degree, 21 00:00:45,119 --> 00:00:46,719 get this job, do this thing, x y Z. You know, 22 00:00:46,719 --> 00:00:49,759 it's always this very linear kind of path, and we're 23 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,320 finding ourselves in these worlds of different kind of limits now, 24 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,600 whether it's thinking about the mental health that I have, 25 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:55,920 the kind of work that I want to do, the 26 00:00:56,039 --> 00:00:58,200 environmental constraints that like I feel like the linear path 27 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,240 doesn't quite doesn't quite work, you know, as as it 28 00:01:01,399 --> 00:01:03,479 seemed like it used to. And then there's just the 29 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,200 other side of the equation that's like, how do we 30 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,079 both best draw from kind of modern science and contemporary 31 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,799 thinking as well as like the wisdom of past and 32 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,640 present cultures of of you know, how people lived well 33 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:15,959 in the past. Right, how do I like think about 34 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,280 all these pieces together? And so I think it's exciting 35 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,599 because your work brings us right into the center of 36 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,920 this this area and again something that's super relevant because 37 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,319 we're seeing more and more younger generations talking about mental 38 00:01:26,359 --> 00:01:27,959 health and what pathways need. 39 00:01:27,799 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: To be for life. 40 00:01:29,239 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 2: So I think to kind of kick us off, you know, 41 00:01:32,239 --> 00:01:34,159 one of the areas that I think encapsulates this is 42 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:35,599 that you that you kind of talk about, is that 43 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,200 our kind of pathway of setting goals is broken. And 44 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,519 I love this idea because I agree, you know, but 45 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,400 I think it's it's something that we find ourselves hitting 46 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,560 walls so many times. So like, let's kind of open 47 00:01:45,599 --> 00:01:47,760 that up and start us here in terms of like 48 00:01:48,439 --> 00:01:49,439 what what what is it like? 49 00:01:49,439 --> 00:01:50,359 Speaker 1: How do we great goals make? 50 00:01:50,359 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: It seems like something you can't really break, but we 51 00:01:52,519 --> 00:01:53,480 somehow manage to do it. 52 00:01:56,239 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, So if you kind of go back to the 53 00:01:58,719 --> 00:02:02,040 most common definition of goals, the one that most people 54 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,840 are using, it really means getting to a specific destination. 55 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: Right. 56 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 3: We define where we want to get what success means 57 00:02:10,439 --> 00:02:13,000 to us, and then we work really really hard to 58 00:02:13,039 --> 00:02:17,919 get there. And then two things might happen. Either you 59 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,400 don't get there and you're deeply and happy about that 60 00:02:20,479 --> 00:02:24,479 and dissatisfied because you feel like you feel or interestingly, 61 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,840 you get there and you're also disappointed because you thought 62 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,319 that by getting there, all of a sudden everything would 63 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,280 be perfect, you'd be happy, you'd get everything you desire, 64 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,960 and you realize that actually this goal doesn't unlock infinite happiness. 65 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,280 And then there's maybe another goal now that you can chase. 66 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,479 So it's this infinite treadmill. We're all on chasing the 67 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,599 next goal one after the other without ever feeling fulfilled. 68 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,759 That's really how we manage our goals today. If you 69 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,000 I loved how you mentioned connecting scientific with them, but 70 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,120 also antioned philosophical wid because if you go back to 71 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:09,520 how scientists approach progress and success, for scientists, success is 72 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,360 not getting to a specific destination, is just learning something new. 73 00:03:14,039 --> 00:03:17,199 As long as you've learned something new, this is success. 74 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,080 And that may not look like what you have predicted 75 00:03:20,599 --> 00:03:25,120 when we started, right, and this looks like for a scientists, 76 00:03:25,199 --> 00:03:29,599 like a cycle of experimentation. They ask a question, They're like, Okay, 77 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,719 what is going on here, Let's formulate the research question, 78 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,439 let's test it, and then let's see what happens. Right, Well, 79 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,000 those cycles of growth is really how a lot of 80 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,599 ancient civilizations and ancient philosophies recommend the way you approach 81 00:03:44,639 --> 00:03:48,080 human growth as well. Right, It's all fields and cycles 82 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,919 and circles and seasons. It's never that very linear path 83 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,360 that is predetermined and that you have to follow with 84 00:03:54,439 --> 00:03:58,639 specific milestones and goals that are that mean failure if 85 00:03:58,639 --> 00:04:02,479 you don't reach them. Right, It's about transformation and reinventing yourself. 86 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,840 So to me, that's the main thing about reinventing our 87 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,560 relationship to goals is really letting go of this linear 88 00:04:10,639 --> 00:04:13,960 approach to them and having a more psychical. 89 00:04:13,919 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: I love that idea too, and it is it is 90 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,199 something interesting too that you know, I was always when 91 00:04:18,199 --> 00:04:20,959 I was studying anthropology as a you know, in school 92 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:22,480 back in the day, it was like I guess I 93 00:04:22,519 --> 00:04:24,040 still study it today too, but like, you know, when 94 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,240 I was formally studying it, you know, I would always 95 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,439 be intrigued when we would find a group or culture 96 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,680 or you know, when folks were talking about the syxical 97 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,360 notion of time versus a linear notion, and like, even 98 00:04:34,399 --> 00:04:37,160 thinking about that is really interesting when one we kind 99 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:38,879 of talk about, you know, time moves forward, right. 100 00:04:38,879 --> 00:04:40,959 Speaker 1: We even used like the idea of progress right when 101 00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:42,399 you write about in the book too, of this idea of. 102 00:04:42,399 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: Like progress is a directional or like a kind of 103 00:04:44,759 --> 00:04:48,720 orientation that we're moving in a certain you know, pathway, 104 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,560 and like that, like, I think we often don't always 105 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:54,439 connect the idea of like time as being linear and 106 00:04:54,439 --> 00:04:56,360 then also our goals as a thing that like we 107 00:04:56,399 --> 00:04:58,120 move forward and do x y z blah blah, even 108 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,680 though like that's one hundred percent how we make it 109 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,040 to do right and how we think about the. 110 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,759 Speaker 1: Pathway that we're going down. 111 00:05:03,439 --> 00:05:05,439 Speaker 2: But then the right's idea of like seasons is a 112 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,160 great example there of like we all know what a 113 00:05:07,199 --> 00:05:09,120 season like, there's four of them, you know, and they 114 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,040 move and they move our year in a way. And 115 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,040 like recognizing that idea is super fun. Then that of 116 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:15,600 course I'm going to put my nerd hat and be like, 117 00:05:15,639 --> 00:05:17,279 oh yeah, we can talk about chakras and wheels too, 118 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:18,800 and like everything is kind of turning and moving in 119 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,759 and on itself in cyclical and spiral time, and so 120 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,879 that is I think a very cool way to help 121 00:05:23,959 --> 00:05:24,759 us ref rethink that. 122 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: And so I'm curious about this too, because the other. 123 00:05:27,399 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 2: Thing that you said here that was was I want 124 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,519 to think with is like they did when we were 125 00:05:32,519 --> 00:05:34,720 talking about what scientific you know, thinking is doing, and 126 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:35,959 like we talk about what you predict something that will 127 00:05:35,959 --> 00:05:37,959 happen and make a hypothesis that I'm going to do X, 128 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:39,360 and then we're going to see why I result, and 129 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,319 if we do or don't see it, that's still helpful. 130 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,079 Speaker 1: And this is something that that I've seen too in. 131 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,399 Speaker 2: Terms of you know, publication around kind of pure reviewed 132 00:05:47,439 --> 00:05:50,360 journal articles that there's like a positivity bias, like I 133 00:05:50,439 --> 00:05:52,720 want to publish that something happened, meaning there's there's an 134 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,639 anti negativity bias not that like we don't want to 135 00:05:54,639 --> 00:05:56,240 say negative result, but we don't want to say something 136 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,879 nothing happened. But that's totally useful for science too, to 137 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:00,800 say we did not find and the change when we 138 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,680 did X, you know, and like why didn't happen? And 139 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,879 so even this interesting idea that that like I'm curious 140 00:06:05,879 --> 00:06:07,079 how we think about this, Like when we say we 141 00:06:07,079 --> 00:06:09,600 predict the thing, we want to see a kind of 142 00:06:09,639 --> 00:06:11,959 positive change results, and like we look away from one 143 00:06:11,959 --> 00:06:14,600 that that feels negative, and so that kind of pushes 144 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:16,199 I feel like it builds a bit of that linearity 145 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,519 right where it's like if I don't see a specific 146 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,240 type of change that I that I predict I'm going 147 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,240 to see, then it somehow it doesn't doesn't count. 148 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:23,759 Speaker 1: Does that Does that work? 149 00:06:24,319 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 3: M I love? I love that you're mentioning this because 150 00:06:28,399 --> 00:06:30,680 you know there's a big movement at the moment in 151 00:06:30,759 --> 00:06:35,959 science for open science and pre registering studies during your 152 00:06:35,959 --> 00:06:40,439 study is basically posting your protocol online for everybody to see, 153 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,720 and then you run the study, and then you can't 154 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,480 go back and change the pole or what you were 155 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:47,720 you were you said you were going to do based 156 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,000 on the results, which sounds crazy that this is not 157 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,959 the norm, right, It's not so, so you're forced to 158 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,920 accept and to publish whatever results you get, whether positive 159 00:07:00,079 --> 00:07:02,480 or negative, or whatever results you get, you have to 160 00:07:02,519 --> 00:07:05,199 publish them. And I feel like in the way that 161 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,279 you manage your goals and the way you design personal experiments, 162 00:07:09,319 --> 00:07:12,519 which I took about in the book, this is why 163 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:17,279 it's so important to define what is the experiment you're 164 00:07:17,319 --> 00:07:19,279 going to run, and what are the parameters, and to 165 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,399 stick to it until the end of the experiment, and 166 00:07:22,439 --> 00:07:26,199 to really withhold judgment until you're done. So, for example, 167 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,839 if you say that you're going to run an experiment 168 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,360 of publishing a new podcast episode every week for a 169 00:07:33,399 --> 00:07:36,800 six months, you can't stop in the middle and say, like, ef, 170 00:07:36,839 --> 00:07:39,199 I don't know like this and I'm not sure this 171 00:07:39,279 --> 00:07:43,040 is working and then decide that nothing happened and not 172 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,959 learn anything from it. I mean, you can, but that 173 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,120 wouldn't be a very good way or useful way of 174 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,439 running an experiment. The useful way of doing this is 175 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,000 you decide what you're going to do, you run the experiment, 176 00:07:54,079 --> 00:07:57,319 you collect all of that data without any judgment yet, 177 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,040 and at the end of the experiment, You look and 178 00:08:01,079 --> 00:08:03,920 you reflect and you ask yourself, Okay, did I like this? 179 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,600 Did I enjoy it? Was that good? What benefits did 180 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,519 it bring? Or was that horrible? Maybe I hated every 181 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,560 secle of it. And that's data too. That's also useful 182 00:08:12,639 --> 00:08:14,680 for you to learn and to grow and to decide 183 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,920 what your next experiment is going to be. So you 184 00:08:16,959 --> 00:08:21,000 can also take some of that new approach to science 185 00:08:21,079 --> 00:08:25,720 that we have now that is more open and more honest, 186 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,399 I want to say, and apply that to the way 187 00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:29,720 you run experiments and your day. 188 00:08:29,839 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: I love that. 189 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, it's because it's we do see like an 190 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,919 ongoing conversations too, in terms of like a desire for 191 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,840 more transparency and openness across the board, right, whether it 192 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:40,279 is like how we're doing science, whether it's politics, you know, 193 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:41,960 whether it's how I'm getting my degree, because it's like 194 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,960 people love also these kind of more authentic conversations where 195 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,080 it's like two people talking about their challenges working, getting 196 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,000 a job, trying to find something out, versus like here's 197 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,159 the five things you got to do to get your 198 00:08:51,159 --> 00:08:53,279 resume to have it ready for the you know whatever 199 00:08:53,399 --> 00:08:56,679 the interview and it's interesting to kind of kind of 200 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,080 note that like there is this that desire to see 201 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:00,840 and like that can be a place also to the 202 00:09:00,879 --> 00:09:03,039 notions of like kind of personal experimentation of of what 203 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,159 I can do with my life, which I think, I 204 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,120 think is really nice, especially because we're kind of seeing again, 205 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,559 like we're running up to these these sort of different 206 00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:13,960 walls now or different kind of limitations of like this 207 00:09:14,279 --> 00:09:16,720 kind of linear path doesn't quite do it for me, right, 208 00:09:16,879 --> 00:09:19,200 And like especially you know, we're seeing you know obviously 209 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,039 AI and things are changing in technology, you know, how 210 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,039 we are learning, how we're playing and spending time together 211 00:09:25,039 --> 00:09:28,799 on social media this before, right, and kind of changing 212 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:30,639 how we communicate with one another, so that this interesting 213 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,080 idea of like we can't just keep doing what we've 214 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,440 always done, right, we have to kind of rethink these pieces, 215 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,200 and like I mean, I guess to help comcrotize this too. Also, 216 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:41,240 like you know, you have a really interesting story also 217 00:09:41,279 --> 00:09:43,039 that you you know, you you did the tech you 218 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,840 did the tech pathway right, you kind of found your 219 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,360 way into the heart of the Google mecha, you know, 220 00:09:49,759 --> 00:09:51,919 and then realize that things weren't quite working out the 221 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,759 way you had thought. And so I mean, tell folks, 222 00:09:53,799 --> 00:09:55,039 if you're not familiar with your story, like a little 223 00:09:55,039 --> 00:09:56,840 bit about how that happened and how that like kind 224 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:58,159 of cracked open the idea of like, wait, let me 225 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,279 rethink literally how I'm going to be doing my career 226 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:02,840 pathway and my life could be. 227 00:10:05,879 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 3: So I used to have I used to follow a 228 00:10:08,799 --> 00:10:13,879 very very linear care pathway. Actually I went to a 229 00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:16,720 pretty good school. I tried to get good grades, and 230 00:10:16,759 --> 00:10:18,960 then I got a job at Google. And once I 231 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,200 found myself there, I discovered that they had an also 232 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:30,559 fairly linear way of managing success, really defining it, codifying it, 233 00:10:30,799 --> 00:10:35,960 and then in a very kind of almost yeah, I 234 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,480 guess Google is a company made of engineers, right, So 235 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,799 they had really engineered what success looked like and how 236 00:10:42,799 --> 00:10:44,759 it worked inside of the company. So you had this 237 00:10:44,879 --> 00:10:47,840 red brick that was telling you exactly what to do, 238 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,120 when to do it, what kind of projects to work on, 239 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,279 what skills to be able to demonstrate, and if you 240 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,080 did that, and if you followed that re brick, you 241 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,720 would end up climbing the ladder again in a very 242 00:10:58,759 --> 00:11:02,799 linear way. But you had high visibility and clarity in 243 00:11:02,919 --> 00:11:08,639 terms of what success looked like. And I felt like 244 00:11:08,919 --> 00:11:12,360 which was a deep realization for me, but it really 245 00:11:12,399 --> 00:11:14,679 felt like to me after a while, as if someone 246 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,320 had spoiled the movie. I knew exactly what was going 247 00:11:18,399 --> 00:11:22,799 to happen, and I somehow lost interest in the game 248 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,480 because I knew exactly what would happen to the main character. 249 00:11:29,879 --> 00:11:32,919 When I left Google, I decided to start a startup, 250 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,159 and that was also interesting because I really thought I 251 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,840 was leaving that linear path, but I ended up repeating 252 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,440 a lot of the same things that I was doing 253 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,679 at Google. I tried to follow a playbook, I downloaded 254 00:11:44,799 --> 00:11:48,240 all of the case studies from other startups, and I 255 00:11:48,279 --> 00:11:50,960 tried to figure out how to climb that ladder just 256 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,000 a different letter. And it's only when my startup failed 257 00:11:55,039 --> 00:11:59,159 and I found myself completely lost with no clear next 258 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,759 run on the ladder that I could climb, that I 259 00:12:01,799 --> 00:12:06,240 had to finally stop and take a moment to reflect 260 00:12:06,279 --> 00:12:10,759 and ask myself, what is it that I truly want 261 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,919 to explore? What am I actually curious about? If external 262 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:21,120 validation and money was not part of the equation. What 263 00:12:21,279 --> 00:12:24,080 is something I would want to be doing every day 264 00:12:24,159 --> 00:12:28,240 when I wake up, even if nobody was watching. And 265 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,879 for me, it's always been the brain. I've always been 266 00:12:30,879 --> 00:12:33,559 fascinated with the way we think, the way we feel, 267 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,279 and so I went back to school to study neuroscience 268 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,120 and ended up on the path that I am on today, 269 00:12:39,519 --> 00:12:43,480 which is very wiggly. I generally have no idea where 270 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,639 I'm going. You know, I just wrote a book, i 271 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,679 finished my PhD. I'm also running a small business, I'm 272 00:12:49,759 --> 00:12:52,440 running online, I'm doing a bit of speaking here and there. 273 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,120 And the reason why I love this path today is 274 00:12:57,159 --> 00:12:59,159 that I have no idea what's going to happen in 275 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,159 the movie. I don't know what's going to happen next, 276 00:13:01,639 --> 00:13:03,679 and I'm a little bit surprised almost every day with 277 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,279 what's on my calendar. And I think that's the. 278 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: Way that resonates. 279 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 2: And I think that that's great too, that like you 280 00:13:10,639 --> 00:13:12,879 kind of recognize when things aren't working, like how do 281 00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:16,519 you then sort of reconjigure things? But then it's like 282 00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:19,320 it does require this moment. And something important that you're 283 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,519 write about too is that we have to be okay 284 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,639 with that discomfort of not really knowing what what is 285 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,000 the next thing, But at the same time as as 286 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,759 you know it too, like there's the when you have 287 00:13:26,759 --> 00:13:29,080 a curiosity mindset to it sentence says, Oh, this is exciting. 288 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going to happen. And this is 289 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:31,919 one of these things. I mean, there's two things that. 290 00:13:31,919 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: Actually stuck out there that I think are really important 291 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,360 for us to think about. And I recognized when I was, like, 292 00:13:36,639 --> 00:13:39,279 you know, reading your story, that one can be in 293 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,000 the kind of career treadmill and then both be burnt 294 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,039 out by the work and like doing too much and 295 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,200 then also bored at the same time, and like we 296 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,320 also don't realize like those seem like they're antithetical, like 297 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:49,720 how could I else both be like doing too much 298 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,320 and be like I don't want to do any of this, 299 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,080 you know, And like I've I've seen that in myself too, 300 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,159 in terms of like you know, putting work in kind 301 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,320 of the wrong pathway and then you realize that like 302 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,600 you're doing both these and it's like the board parts, 303 00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:02,279 I think your point is really important. It's like I 304 00:14:02,279 --> 00:14:03,840 know where the movie goes. I know exactly how to 305 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,840 what this ladder climbing would look like. I know where 306 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:08,039 I would go, and I can see it like and 307 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,240 like assessed to I want to be in that that 308 00:14:10,279 --> 00:14:12,879 spot you know, and at the same time, I'm so busy, 309 00:14:12,919 --> 00:14:15,000 I don't really have the energy to do that. And 310 00:14:15,399 --> 00:14:17,559 how do I put those two signals together and say, wait, 311 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,159 maybe this is not the right piece. And the other 312 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,399 side is is this notion of for some for many 313 00:14:23,399 --> 00:14:24,600 of us. I mean, it's scary to be like I 314 00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:26,279 don't know what the next thing would be, right, and 315 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,720 so it's like this kind of curiosity versus kind of 316 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,159 reactive mindset, and and so I'm curious, like to kind 317 00:14:32,159 --> 00:14:33,960 of help help folks think about how do we get 318 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,320 out of this box? And I feel like I'm kind 319 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,519 of stuck and I'm either burnt out and board or 320 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:39,720 or one or the other. But I'm kind of afraid 321 00:14:39,799 --> 00:14:41,519 of like I don't know what to do next, right 322 00:14:41,759 --> 00:14:43,399 either if I don't have the resources or I don't 323 00:14:43,399 --> 00:14:45,039 know what the pathway, Like, how do I kind of 324 00:14:45,039 --> 00:14:47,159 help put that mindset together in terms of being more 325 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,080 more curious versus reactive. 326 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,759 Speaker 3: I guess yeah, I think you'll you'll like that term, 327 00:14:53,879 --> 00:14:57,919 considering that you're an anthro apologized. But in the book 328 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:03,200 I use the term self anthropology. And what I encourage 329 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,279 people to do is, again, if you think about the 330 00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:10,840 scientific method and that cycle of experimentation. Scientists don't just 331 00:15:10,879 --> 00:15:14,600 start testing stuff right there's a phase of observation. You 332 00:15:14,759 --> 00:15:18,200 just observe how things are right now, and then you 333 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,720 ask yourself, how could they be different or why they're 334 00:15:20,759 --> 00:15:23,320 working this way. Now, let's test this by designing an 335 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,720 experiment and collect data. But it all starts always with observation. 336 00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:32,080 And what I call self anthropology in a bit of 337 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,759 a cheeky way, is basically the idea that you're going 338 00:15:35,799 --> 00:15:40,120 to pretend that you're an anthropologist studying your own life 339 00:15:40,639 --> 00:15:43,840 and the same way an anthropologist goes and studies a 340 00:15:43,879 --> 00:15:47,559 different culture and look at it with fresh eyes, asking 341 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,399 why are they doing things this way? Why are they're 342 00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:53,399 communicating this way? And why are you doing approaching this 343 00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:55,679 in disorder and not that one? Why is this more 344 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,919 important to them than that other thing? And taking no 345 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,519 and really again without any judgment, just looking at how 346 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,279 things are working in that environment, you can learn a 347 00:16:09,279 --> 00:16:13,799 lot about your life and you can discover patterns that 348 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,840 you may not have noticed in the past because of 349 00:16:16,919 --> 00:16:20,399 exactly what you just described earlier. You're so easy trying 350 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,360 to climb that ladder that you never take the time 351 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,000 to take a little step back and really ask yourself, wait, 352 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,399 why am I even doing this thing? And why am 353 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:34,080 I doing it this way? So I encourage people who 354 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,360 are in this situation feeling a little bit stuck, not 355 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,559 quite sure what to do next, to just go back 356 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,080 to starting with observation. You don't need to have the 357 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,120 solution yet, you don't need to have a plan yet. 358 00:16:46,639 --> 00:16:50,200 You just need to observe what is currently working, what 359 00:16:50,279 --> 00:16:53,519 is currently not working for you, just taking little notes 360 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,080 and in a very practical way. An exercise that I 361 00:16:57,159 --> 00:16:59,679 do with members of my community is I tell them, 362 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,640 for twenty four hours, you're becoming the anthrologist untroplgious of 363 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,680 your own life. You can do that in your Apple 364 00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:10,400 notes and your Google keep, whatever notes you're taking on 365 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,480 your phone, and anytime you notice something interesting as you 366 00:17:13,519 --> 00:17:15,680 go about your day, you take a notes. That could 367 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,160 be after a conversation with someone where you're like, oh, 368 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,880 I feel weirdly energized after talking for twenty minutes about 369 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,400 this obscure topic with the colleague, or that could be 370 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:29,519 things like, oh, I feel really drained after giving this presentation, 371 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,079 or I was feeling anxious all morning before this meeting 372 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:37,279 little observations like this, just do that for twenty four hours. 373 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,279 Those are going to be the seeds for you to 374 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,880 then decide what you want to try to tweak and 375 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:44,519 play with and the experiment with. 376 00:17:44,599 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great. 377 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 2: I think it's it is interesting because oftentimes we want 378 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,000 to add that value judgment right away is like am 379 00:17:52,039 --> 00:17:53,519 I either seeing a thing or I'm not seeing a 380 00:17:53,559 --> 00:17:56,640 thing right or that, Yeah, the presentation was hard, but 381 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,200 I don't then say it. Let me observe and actually, 382 00:17:58,519 --> 00:18:00,400 how is I emotionally feeling? How is I physically feeling? 383 00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:03,039 How was I saying other people reacting in the scenario 384 00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:06,559 or did I feel energized? And like that is a 385 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,839 really important thing that yes, obviously cool plug for anthropology, 386 00:18:09,839 --> 00:18:11,960 you know, but like this bonus too because even this 387 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,200 idea of kind of withholding judgment, I think is really important, 388 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,519 right and probeague of mine Jay Hasburg, you know athopologists, 389 00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:20,640 He's been at metaphor a long time. You know, it's 390 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,839 also in the tech sector, Like wrote a book called 391 00:18:23,839 --> 00:18:26,200 ethnographic Thinking, and one of the kind of features that 392 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,160 like goes with design thinking is this idea of withholding 393 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,160 judgment as we're observing as we're getting a sense of 394 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:31,920 like what it is that we're seeing, because we do 395 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,880 want to be like that's either unimportant data or that 396 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,319 one's the most important data, even that like interrogating why 397 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,079 why is this more or less important? 398 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: Right is? I think it's a really. 399 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 2: Important part to be able to kind of learn to 400 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,160 pay attention to right and have that kind of curiosity 401 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,240 and willingness to do so, because it is tricky and 402 00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:50,720 uncomfortable to be like, let me just watch how I 403 00:18:50,759 --> 00:18:53,160 feel and watch how this is happening, and like as 404 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:54,839 if I was an alien coming down to earth and 405 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:56,200 like saying, okay, what what's you know? 406 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: How is this this this space working? You know? 407 00:19:01,519 --> 00:19:04,079 Speaker 3: And to your point, I just want to add because 408 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,319 I think you're making a really important point here. We 409 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,279 talked about how we're too busy to take the time 410 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,119 and give ourselves the space to reflect on how we 411 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,039 feel and how things are going. But to your point here, 412 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,599 I feel like sometimes also we keep ourselves busy because 413 00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:25,599 we're maybe too scared of deeply looking at how we're 414 00:19:25,759 --> 00:19:29,400 actually feeling. Because we know deep down that if we 415 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,640 start doing this, if we start honestly observing the way 416 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,839 we feel, inside and the way we behave on a 417 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,599 day to day basis. This might lead to very big changes, 418 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,319 and big changes can be very scary, So sometimes it 419 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,039 just feels a little bit more reassuring and comfortable to 420 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:53,119 just keep busy and not look too closely as to 421 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:53,440 how we feel. 422 00:19:54,279 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 2: That's a great point, and it is one of those 423 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,440 you know, I'm sure you hear the two words someone's 424 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,160 how you doing, I'm just busy, you know, and that's 425 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,960 like the everybody's response, and truthfully, yes we are all busy. 426 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,880 But like it's this funny point of like it's either 427 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,559 become a badge of honor and or I think you're 428 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,759 right that for many of us in oftentimes it's like 429 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,480 that's why I don't have to think about the other 430 00:20:12,519 --> 00:20:14,640 actual questions, because the questions are hard, right. 431 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,839 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's like it's one of those 432 00:20:16,839 --> 00:20:17,279 things that you. 433 00:20:17,319 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 2: Know, if you've done it before, you know what will 434 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,680 feel better when you do it, But it's hard to excavate, 435 00:20:21,759 --> 00:20:23,400 you know, the old bones that you that you don't 436 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,160 want to do because I think it's something else that's 437 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,240 important that you help me think about too through your book, 438 00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:30,480 is that this this idea that like we all have 439 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:32,279 a course of inner curiosity, right, and like we were 440 00:20:32,279 --> 00:20:34,480 born with that's that's how kids and babies play. I 441 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,640 have I have a you know, almost six month old 442 00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:39,359 son now, and it's like watching him just begin to 443 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,319 discover and he has zero preconceptions of how things are 444 00:20:41,319 --> 00:20:44,559 supposed to go, and you know, to often to hilarity, right, 445 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:47,480 you know, it's it's important to recognize like that's the 446 00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:49,119 kind of the you know, the childlike wonder. 447 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: You know, it's like it's very different when you're. 448 00:20:50,319 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: Watching your own kid do it, you know, but it's 449 00:20:51,519 --> 00:20:55,400 like this this funny thing of like learning that that's 450 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:56,759 that's going to be there, and like, you know, I 451 00:20:56,839 --> 00:20:58,200 always want to make sure that, you know, I keep 452 00:20:58,240 --> 00:20:59,519 that or like we like how do we keep that 453 00:20:59,559 --> 00:21:01,920 in our lives? And so you note that that we 454 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,720 often see that kind of inner curiosity kind of quailed 455 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:06,200 over time, right. I think part of it is is, 456 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,559 you know, too, like through the linear thinking model, it's like, oh, 457 00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:10,440 there's not a ton of space for curiosity. If it's 458 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,079 like go down this put this is you know, you 459 00:21:12,079 --> 00:21:13,759 can be curious in this little box and that's it, 460 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:14,440 you know. 461 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,559 Speaker 1: So so some like, let's think about this. 462 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 2: You know, oftentimes that kind of inner curiosity gets quelled, 463 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,839 like how do we either kind of excavator on earth 464 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,000 that you know, like we have observations? Was one bucket, 465 00:21:24,039 --> 00:21:26,400 Like what else can we do in that area to 466 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:27,759 kind of say, let me, let me poke at that 467 00:21:27,759 --> 00:21:32,279 that little that little voice, you know, maybe be less busy. 468 00:21:31,559 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 3: And so so there's observation. And then once you're you 469 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:41,200 start absorbing those different patterns, you can get back into 470 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:45,119 a bit more like an active mode and start playing 471 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,319 with ideas, and we be testing some of them. And 472 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,920 this is where I really like the container of the 473 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:57,359 experiment for this, because again, as you mentioned, where we're like, okay, 474 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,640 how do I even practice curiosity if as been in 475 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,119 a you know, just purely execution climbing the latter mode? 476 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,359 How do I reinject this into my life? That's why 477 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,200 my book is called Tiny Experiments and that Big Experiments, 478 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,519 because I really feel like keeping them small means that 479 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,119 you can integrate them in your life without making big 480 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,599 changes yet, and I think they will result in big 481 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,839 changes and transformation. But you don't have to do that 482 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,599 from the get go. You can start with something quite small, 483 00:22:30,039 --> 00:22:33,920 and so those seats of inspiration that those observations that 484 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,640 you made, you can look at them and then ask yourself, Okay, 485 00:22:37,559 --> 00:22:41,200 what something that could be different? What could I play with? 486 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:44,839 What could I change? What could I test? So, for example, 487 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,799 if you've noticed that a specific topic gives you a 488 00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:53,880 lot of energy, what if you blocked an hour or 489 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,079 two hours every week to explore that topic, no emails, 490 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,519 your phone in another room, you tell the kids that 491 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:02,480 they have to go and play and do something else, 492 00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:05,519 because for one or two hours, you're just going to 493 00:23:05,559 --> 00:23:08,640 be a nerd and explore everything you want to learn 494 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,559 about this topic. And do that a little bit every 495 00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:13,759 week and maybe take notes, etc. Just for the purpose 496 00:23:13,799 --> 00:23:17,720 of exploring an idea that you're curious about. If you've 497 00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:21,519 noticed that you're extremely tired in the morning and you 498 00:23:21,559 --> 00:23:25,200 can't really get good job done, good work done, maybe 499 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,079 try shifting some of your low effort admin tasks to 500 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,200 the morning. Test that for a few weeks, and again 501 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,000 take little note, see how that feels. Is that working 502 00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:38,680 for you or not? And you can really design those 503 00:23:38,839 --> 00:23:41,640 small personal experiments in any area of your life. It 504 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,039 can be in your relationships with your partner, saying, let's 505 00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:49,160 experiment with a weekly date night where we both come 506 00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:52,160 with prepared questions for the other one and we just 507 00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:55,920 ask each other about our lives. You can experiment with 508 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,960 your health, with your creativity, with your work processes, knowledge management, 509 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,440 any of those different kind of things, and by doing so, 510 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,599 it will also make you even more observant of the 511 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,920 way these things are changing your life. You'll be more preasent. 512 00:24:13,599 --> 00:24:17,759 And so even if there's no big milestone or outcome 513 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,599 that you can pin and say this is success, you 514 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,599 will actually progress, you will actually change, you will actually 515 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,559 evolve as a human being. And to me, that is 516 00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:29,039 a better definition of senes No. 517 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 2: I love that too, and I think and it puts 518 00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:33,640 us pushes us also to this like the more circular 519 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,319 kind of framing versusly like I hit milestone X y Z, 520 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,160 and now I've done things. 521 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: You know, now I'm now I'm. 522 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: Ten percent better, you know, not to hit on ten 523 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,559 percent happier but interesting idea, right inter the meditation, you know, 524 00:24:44,599 --> 00:24:46,759 But like, but I think that I think that's a great, 525 00:24:46,839 --> 00:24:49,920 a great point to kind of recognize that it can 526 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,960 both be anything, right, And I love the idea of like, yeah, 527 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,839 let's either come with you know, set date night for 528 00:24:54,039 --> 00:24:55,720 you know, for six weeks, we're going to have here's 529 00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:57,279 ten questions that we want to know about each other, 530 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,200 and like they're gonna get progressively harder to answers, but 531 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,839 you know, or whatever it is, or even this is 532 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,359 like yeah, like are you're not a morning person? Like 533 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,240 that's actually fine, Like don't let visit tell you that 534 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,759 you're you're crappy. It's like just then change your task 535 00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:09,960 that you don't have to eat what was it Mark 536 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,759 Twain to eat the eat the frog first or whatever, 537 00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:13,119 eat the biggest frog first. It's like, no, eat the 538 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,680 biggest frog later, if you want to eat the smallest 539 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,920 one first, if that's easier for you, right, and kind 540 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,680 of recognizing that like it you know with that too, 541 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:21,359 like this the kind. 542 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: Of time boxing it, right. 543 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 2: I think it's really really an important piece that you 544 00:25:24,079 --> 00:25:26,599 point out too, because it's like, hey, how do I 545 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,359 know if it's working and be like, well, part of it, 546 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:29,720 like say, if I'm gonna do it for six weeks 547 00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:31,200 or one week or a month or whatever it is, 548 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,240 and like commit to doing that and then you can 549 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:35,359 actually see, Okay, what how do I feel after doing 550 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,799 that for this amount of time. And it's funny because 551 00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:41,799 you know, as someone that is a uh is a 552 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,880 continuously bad planner, that like it's you know, Philly's fist 553 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,160 hard to put these things. But when I put a 554 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,279 small time box of something, like it's much easier to 555 00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:50,440 then both get something done but then feel like it's 556 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,480 it's more I can accomplish it, right, It's like it 557 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:54,359 kind of gets sort of the paralysis of. 558 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,279 Speaker 1: Like how do I how do I do this? You know? 559 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,319 Speaker 2: And that that ties into this other piece of that 560 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,079 was really interesting that you talk about, is that like 561 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,799 it's like chronos versus chiros, right, it's like the quality 562 00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:07,000 and quantity of time. So like thinking about this idea 563 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,799 of like both how much time am I putting into something? 564 00:26:08,839 --> 00:26:11,480 But like as I'm working on something, it's not about 565 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,440 did I put in again We're. 566 00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: Gonna hit on numbers here, ten thousand hours, like do 567 00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:15,279 this thing. 568 00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 2: It's like that's not necessarily the point that we're talking 569 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,519 about here, right, but that that's like a big experimise 570 00:26:19,519 --> 00:26:20,640 is like a hell of a lot of work, right, 571 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:22,680 But I could do something smaller. 572 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: So, so how do we think about this idea? 573 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 2: Of like this, the Chronos and chiros in terms of 574 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,240 the time we're putting into something. 575 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 3: Yes, so yeah, you perfectly defined that Chronos quantity of time, 576 00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:38,000 Cairos quantity of time, and the ancient Greeks has those 577 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,039 two different works to describe time. And so Chronos is 578 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,880 really the time of clocks, of meetings, of saying let's 579 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,160 be here at ten am and we're going to work 580 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,880 on this for one hour, whereas when you focus on Cairos, 581 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,079 what you're reading trying to optimize for is that of 582 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,559 time rather than as much time as possible. And so 583 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,680 if you have twenty minutes of really deep work where 584 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,680 you're highly connected with and inflow with whatever you're working on, 585 00:27:08,519 --> 00:27:12,559 that's going to have more value than spending ten thousand 586 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,240 hours practicing whatever skill. It's also knowing sometimes that some 587 00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:24,200 moments have more weight and more quality than others, and 588 00:27:24,279 --> 00:27:27,480 that also can help you navigate decisions in your life. So, 589 00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:32,880 for example, that's knowing that in this moment, maybe bad 590 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,680 time with your kid is more important than answering this 591 00:27:37,839 --> 00:27:41,480 email that is in your inbox. That's really having this 592 00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:45,000 approach of Cairos and knowing that each minute has a 593 00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:49,279 specific and special unique quality to it that you can 594 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,599 attune yourself to and really decide what you want to experience, 595 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,240 what do you want your really your your life and 596 00:27:57,279 --> 00:28:01,279 your experience to be in this moment, rather than having 597 00:28:01,759 --> 00:28:06,160 the chronos approach where each minute is equal and the 598 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,920 goal is to you as much as possible using all 599 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,079 of those tiny boxes that all add up to your life. 600 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,400 And the best way I think to show to really 601 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,599 for anyone listening to this to know that they have 602 00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:25,400 experienced chiros, they know what it is intrinsically is that 603 00:28:25,799 --> 00:28:29,119 you know how sometimes you have a conversation with someone 604 00:28:29,559 --> 00:28:32,480 and then you look at the time and it was 605 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,160 four hours talking with them, and you really didn't see 606 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,640 the time going. That's chiros. That shows you that time 607 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,960 is elastic depending on its quality, and that other times, 608 00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:49,359 you know, things go very slowly if you don't want 609 00:28:49,359 --> 00:28:52,240 to be here, if you're worried, you don't feel connected 610 00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:56,440 with whoever you're with. So that's chiros. We've all experienced it, 611 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,480 but we can be a little bit more intentional with it. 612 00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:01,519 Speaker 2: No, I love that idea too, and it's it's it's 613 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,440 counter to of course the other like I think frustrating 614 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,519 prevailing wisdom, right that time is money, right, Because then 615 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:09,640 it's like because a dollar is an individual thing, right, 616 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,400 that it's like worth this much. And like if we 617 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,240 say time is that, then it has a different value too. 618 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,720 And it's like, but it doesn't, right, Like we have 619 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,960 a subjective experience that matters of what we're doing and 620 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,279 what we're doing it, and like getting in like as 621 00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:23,000 you said too, like that flow right where that time 622 00:29:23,079 --> 00:29:24,960 just flies by and something it's been a couple hours 623 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,359 and you're like, wow, I didn't realize what I was 624 00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:29,920 reading books, talking to a friend, you know, watching a movie, 625 00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:31,640 playing with your kid, you know, going on a walk, 626 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:33,519 or I mean, or if you're I don't know, if 627 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:35,240 you're coding, it's fine too, right, It's like doesn't matter 628 00:29:35,279 --> 00:29:37,000 what it is. But we all know, we all have 629 00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:39,440 we've had that, right. I mean, I think it is 630 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,799 really powerful to recognize that that we It's helpful to 631 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,039 like again like look back and reflect on those moments 632 00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:48,480 and know that when we had them and giving different 633 00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:51,559 weight to time is such an important piece. And I 634 00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:54,319 think that that speaks to this the like the importance 635 00:29:54,319 --> 00:29:56,880 of a mindfulness approach that you also talked about right that. 636 00:29:57,799 --> 00:29:59,279 Speaker 1: You know what is mindfulness? 637 00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:01,319 Speaker 2: Meaning as you think abo this parayly, oftentimes we're like, oh, 638 00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:03,519 some people say, oh, it's like meditating. It's like maybe 639 00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:05,000 like part of it, but like I think it's really this. 640 00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:08,000 It's like, am I aware of the experience that I'm having? 641 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:08,599 Speaker 1: Right? 642 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,039 Speaker 2: And am I kind of being more attuned to that 643 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,400 itself versus you know, I meditated for ten minutes? 644 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: Right? 645 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,279 Speaker 2: And it's funny because oftentimes, like if people say I 646 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,240 don't know either how to be mindful or what the 647 00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:22,880 earth has like some foof food stuff, I don't know, 648 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,400 it's like, well, then just sit and meditate for ten 649 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,319 minutes and we'll give you a time to start with. 650 00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:29,519 But then, you know, think about how you felt during 651 00:30:29,559 --> 00:30:31,440 that ten minutes and if it was anxious, that's actually fine. 652 00:30:31,599 --> 00:30:33,480 And if it was like bored, that's okay too. If 653 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,680 it's sleepy, that's fine. If it was excited, that's also great. 654 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,720 And it's like recognizing that we don't need to judge 655 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,519 the chronos there, right, It's like the chronos gave us 656 00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:43,759 just a bounded moment to try something, but really, then 657 00:30:43,799 --> 00:30:45,400 we're going after the cairos after the. 658 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: End of it right. 659 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And that non judgmental aspect is so important. 660 00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:58,559 There are a lot of experiences that we simply cannot control, 661 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,920 whether you're you to external factors or internal chemistry or 662 00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:08,759 just you know, events relationships that we have. There are 663 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,279 simply a lot of things that we feel and that 664 00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:15,240 we think that are out of our control. But then 665 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,799 we have somehow somewhat a little bit more control over 666 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,240 how we respond to our own thoughts and emotions. And 667 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,200 this is exactly what you're describing here, being aware of 668 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,359 them but also not judging them, not judging necessary whether 669 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,759 they're good or they're bad. They just happened, and you 670 00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:38,559 can learn from any of these experiences, whether good or bad. 671 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,400 That kind of like goes back to what we were 672 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,599 talking about earlier. Also, is that if you start disconnecting 673 00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:49,480 your actions from this artificial idea of success, you can 674 00:31:49,599 --> 00:31:54,480 just again be aware and observe of, you know, how 675 00:31:54,519 --> 00:31:57,440 you feel, your emotions, your thoughts, et cetera. As you 676 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,640 explore an idea or a path or something that you're 677 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,680 curious about, and if you don't get to the place 678 00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:08,839 you expected to get to, that's fine. That can actually 679 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,839 be good. Something unexpected, something surprising something that you can 680 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,279 learn from. And I think that connects to my. 681 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: It's a great point too. 682 00:32:16,759 --> 00:32:21,559 Speaker 2: And yeah, if we're able to not judge a prejudge scenario. 683 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,799 Speaker 1: What's interesting about that too? You know? 684 00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 2: That has me me thinking that I like. 685 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: The idea that. 686 00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 2: The quality of our experiences in time as we can 687 00:32:33,759 --> 00:32:35,680 it matters. I don't want to prejudge that. But then 688 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,119 also we have things like procrastination that I don't want 689 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,599 to do something around, like you know, I just can't 690 00:32:41,599 --> 00:32:43,480 get started, right, And what I love is that you 691 00:32:43,519 --> 00:32:45,920 also tackle this idea that it's like, well, actually that's 692 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,920 not a bad thing, right, you know, we we have 693 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,359 such a negative idea because like productivity also again in 694 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,000 modern business parlance, right, it's. 695 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: Like go Google do this. You know, here's your here's 696 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:55,920 your five points of to do list. 697 00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:59,279 Speaker 2: Procrastination we're always fighting as somehow, how are we always 698 00:32:59,279 --> 00:33:00,720 fighting against this thing we don't want to know, we 699 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,039 don't want to do or don't want to start. Like 700 00:33:02,279 --> 00:33:03,799 that's curious, But I think I like the way you 701 00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:06,440 flip this for us and say, actually, let's rethink what 702 00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:09,440 procrastination is doing here. It's not just this bad guy 703 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,920 that we have to overcome what am I be telling 704 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,400 us something important? So I'll tell me a bit about 705 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:15,519 what that is. And then also like, how'd you How 706 00:33:15,519 --> 00:33:17,599 did you come to that idea that procrastination is not 707 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:18,240 such a bad guy? 708 00:33:18,279 --> 00:33:23,039 Speaker 3: If you all, yeah, it's a you know, this is 709 00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:27,039 a kind of a thread that runs through the entire book, right, 710 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,519 is that any challenge can become an opportunity for growth 711 00:33:31,559 --> 00:33:34,200 if you choose to approach it from a place of curiosity. 712 00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:40,519 And I choose procrastination as an illustration of this because 713 00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:44,480 I know this is something that most people think is bad. 714 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,799 Most people agree procrastination is bad. I don't want to 715 00:33:47,799 --> 00:33:53,039 be procrastinating. If you look up online articles to try 716 00:33:53,079 --> 00:33:57,559 and help you deal with procrastination or manage procrastination, most 717 00:33:57,599 --> 00:34:01,640 of them are titled how to beat fascination. There's something 718 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,359 really violent going on yet, And so yeah, we really 719 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,079 want to get rid of it. And so I picked 720 00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:14,400 that example as something that really most people just want 721 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,239 to get rid of, and showing how you can actually 722 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,199 grow and learn if you choose to approach it from 723 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:26,400 a place of curacity. Because what is procrastination really it's 724 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,559 a signal from your brain and your body, that something 725 00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:32,320 is not quite right and that you're not in the 726 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,039 best conditions possible to do whether a task you feel 727 00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:39,679 like you should be doing, and that problem can come 728 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,199 from different places. It can be a problem coming from 729 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,280 the task itself. So maybe actually you should not even 730 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,000 be doing that task in the first place. Maybe someone 731 00:34:51,039 --> 00:34:53,559 else should be doing it, or maybe we should not 732 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,559 even be doing that task in the first place. It 733 00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:58,599 ended up on your task list, it's been there, and 734 00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:01,559 you've been feeling horrible about it for not doing it 735 00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:05,079 for two weeks, but actually, nothing bad's going to happen 736 00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:07,360 if nobody does that thing, so you can just move 737 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,360 it from your task list. 738 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 1: So that. 739 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,159 Speaker 3: Could be the reason why you're procrastinating, is that subconsciously 740 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,079 you know there's no point doing this thing. Another reason 741 00:35:18,119 --> 00:35:21,719 why you may be procrastinating is because the task is 742 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,920 just not fun, not enjoyable, not exciting. That's also a 743 00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:27,239 very valid reason why you don't want to work on it. 744 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,360 And in that case, once you've identified this by approaching 745 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,840 it from a place of curiosity, you can say, okay, so, okay, 746 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,719 I do want to do the task. I think it 747 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,639 makes sense to do it, but how can I make 748 00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:41,440 it fun, maybe work with someone, go to your favorite 749 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,679 coffee shop, et cetera. And other times. Another signal that 750 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,280 procrastination can be sending you is that, let's say, yes, 751 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,800 you're convinced you want to do it, it looks like fun, 752 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,320 and you're still not doing it. Why Probably because you 753 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,119 feel like you don't have the necessary skills or expertise 754 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,920 or tools not able to do it yourself. So in 755 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,280 that case, you can get those tools, you can get support, 756 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,960 you can get coaching, mentoring, but you're not stuck anymore. 757 00:36:07,519 --> 00:36:10,280 And you notice when I go through all of those 758 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,679 different potential sources of procrastination that again there's no judgment there. 759 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,760 I'm really just looking at the signal and I'm asking, hey, procrastination, 760 00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:23,840 what are you trying to tell me? Here? Almost talk 761 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,199 to it as if it was a friend and say, hey, 762 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,760 I know you're trying to tell me something. What are 763 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:29,760 you saying? I'm listening. 764 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,039 Speaker 2: I think that that's super important. It's and it's it's 765 00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:34,360 like that power of reframing too, right. It's something that 766 00:36:35,079 --> 00:36:39,800 I it's like I recognized years ago in my life too, 767 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,239 that that you know, one when I was feeling anxious 768 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:43,599 for something like you know kind of like this is 769 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,320 this doesn't feel great. You know, it's like you want 770 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:46,400 to kind of get rid of the feeling that you 771 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,440 feel like this isn't good. But then I kind of 772 00:36:48,519 --> 00:36:50,679 learned to reframe and say, well, no, what is this. 773 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,159 What is this friend in my neighborhood here like trying 774 00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:54,639 to tell me like it's trying to protect me for 775 00:36:54,639 --> 00:36:55,039 some reason. 776 00:36:55,119 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: It's like wants to make sure I'm okay. 777 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,199 Speaker 2: And it's like this interesting idea of like, oh, like anxiety, 778 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,000 you know, stop up to kind of say hello, let 779 00:37:01,039 --> 00:37:02,920 me let me see what it has to say. In procrastination, 780 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,760 you know that resonates in that similar kind of way 781 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,239 that you know, in one box, this is a negative thing, right, 782 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:10,719 and the other side it's like what is this trying 783 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,119 to tell me? And like oh wait, maybe I need 784 00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:13,519 to get some different kind of skills, or maybe we 785 00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:16,960 can actually improve the process entirely. And you know that 786 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,079 the whatever the forty emails is supposed to stay, like 787 00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:21,320 we can actually automate that process or whatever it is, right, 788 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,800 like recognizing we don't have to do it that specific way, 789 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,800 and so it's not procrastination that's the problem. It's like 790 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,119 us kind of seeing, you know, how can I move 791 00:37:28,199 --> 00:37:30,400 through what needs to get done right? And like that 792 00:37:30,519 --> 00:37:32,199 might be going around it, it might be you know, getting 793 00:37:32,199 --> 00:37:33,800 skills for it. And I think that that's actually really 794 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,280 really helpful and like to generate something out of it, right, 795 00:37:38,599 --> 00:37:41,400 And I think even this concept of kind of the 796 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,880 generative form of thinking is is something that I took 797 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,159 away from from the work too that I think is 798 00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:48,280 really helpful because it kind of says when we have 799 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,519 a roadblock, that's asking ourselves is it a roadblock? And 800 00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:52,960 then or what is the block trying to tell us? 801 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,320 Like and maybe again it is like I need to 802 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,840 get a different kind of pathway to get through it 803 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:57,360 or around it. 804 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:57,519 Speaker 3: You know. 805 00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 2: It's something that really stuck with me too. Like so 806 00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:04,119 one I've I've got my short term procrastination thinking. The 807 00:38:04,159 --> 00:38:06,400 other side is like this like much longer legacy thinking, 808 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,679 which I thought was really interesting in a way to 809 00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:10,960 approach this too, because it's like, you know, against linear pathway. 810 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,920 It's like I'm thinking about, Okay, what am I going 811 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,760 to accomplish across my boxes and my calendar and then 812 00:38:16,159 --> 00:38:19,039 both either leave behind, But like legacy is an interesting 813 00:38:19,159 --> 00:38:20,639 like challenge point because it's like, either what do I 814 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,360 leave behind when I when I die or or just 815 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:24,519 when I leave a company or something. 816 00:38:24,599 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: Right, it's like how do people know what I did? 817 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,519 Speaker 2: And we're with a slight obsession with that also in 818 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,760 kind of today's contemporary culture, you know, and like you 819 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,079 also help us like smack that around a little bit 820 00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:36,159 as well too. I guess that's finally metaphor we're asking 821 00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:38,400 for gently massage it to can help but think play 822 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,400 differently about what it could be. So like let's go 823 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,719 to that set end of the spectrum too, Like so 824 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:44,960 we have legacy thinking now of like let's actually rethink 825 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,239 what we're trying to do there too, Like how does 826 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,800 that how does that reshape our thinking in your pathway? 827 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 3: Yes, I absolutely had. I felt like I had to 828 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,400 have a chapter about this question in the book because 829 00:38:58,519 --> 00:39:01,400 I know that a lot of the kind of people 830 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,000 like you, like me, who actually do care about having 831 00:39:05,079 --> 00:39:07,599 an impact a positive impact on the world and the 832 00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:11,360 people around us. As you said, this concept of legacy 833 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:18,920 making sure that we leave something behind were remembered and 834 00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:24,719 we're really just having this reinsurance that it mattered that 835 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,519 we were here at some point it is something that 836 00:39:28,599 --> 00:39:33,440 we all cling onto as if it would give meaning 837 00:39:33,519 --> 00:39:37,400 to our lives. And what I want to do in 838 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,519 what I do in the book in the last chapter 839 00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:44,599 actually is that I challenged that thinking. And what I 840 00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:47,800 say is that you can create meaning in your life 841 00:39:48,159 --> 00:39:52,960 in the here and now in present by shifting your 842 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,119 mindset from how am I going to be remembered when 843 00:39:56,159 --> 00:39:58,960 I'm gone, which when you think about it makes absolutely 844 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,119 no sense. You're not. You're going to buy yourself to 845 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:07,519 enjoy all of that, you know, So shifting your mindset 846 00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:12,480 to how can I be as generative as possible in 847 00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:16,320 the present and the here and now positively contributing to 848 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:21,320 the lives of my fellow living human beings for sharing 849 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:26,159 this earth with me at the moment. And if everybody 850 00:40:26,199 --> 00:40:30,440 did that, actually we would end up, in a indirect 851 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,840 way leaving a better legacy. But I don't think focusing 852 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,679 on leaving a better legacy is the way to go 853 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,119 about achieving that. So that's really what I advocate for, 854 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,239 is really trying to have the most positive impact possible 855 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,079 again today, and it doesn't have to be on in 856 00:40:49,079 --> 00:40:52,920 the entire world. It can be on your local community, family, friends, 857 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,199 et cetera. The great thing about this approach as well, 858 00:40:56,639 --> 00:41:00,840 which ties back to the idea again of experimentating, is 859 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,719 that you can see straight away if what you're doing 860 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,480 is working, and you can adapt your approach and you 861 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,000 can keep on tweaking until you get to the kind 862 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,840 of impact that you want to have. If you wait 863 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,079 until you're dead to for the results to be available, 864 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,480 you're not going to be able to do anything to 865 00:41:20,679 --> 00:41:23,079 change the trajectory if that's not really where you want 866 00:41:23,119 --> 00:41:23,239 it to. 867 00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 1: And I think that's a great point. 868 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,079 Speaker 2: And like, you know, while we're seeing also kind of 869 00:41:28,079 --> 00:41:31,519 this I want to say rebellion, but it's also more 870 00:41:31,599 --> 00:41:34,320 just like you know, this push against retirement is like 871 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,280 wait till you're like, I can't wait till I'm retired. 872 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,559 It's like why, you know, you know, do the things 873 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,079 like that the kind of push back we see if 874 00:41:40,079 --> 00:41:41,360 people say, well, do what you want to do now, 875 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,800 like what are you waiting until you're potentially sixty five 876 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,079 or seventy or eighty, which you know, will we even 877 00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:46,519 be able to retire? 878 00:41:46,559 --> 00:41:48,039 Speaker 1: I don't know, so, I mean that's probably part of 879 00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:49,119 the question there, you know. 880 00:41:49,679 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 2: But but this idea that like yeah, why why are 881 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:54,880 we putting off basically what we want to see in 882 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,320 the world? Like that seems it, See when you think 883 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:57,679 about it, it's kind of crazy, right, You're like you 884 00:41:58,039 --> 00:42:00,199 won't even be there, So it's like you might have 885 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,800 done some good, but like you know, the story might change. 886 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,519 And again, one of these things is like, you know, 887 00:42:05,599 --> 00:42:07,719 depending who you ask, like say, Rockefeller did great things, 888 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,039 you know for the United States, is like, yeah, welly 889 00:42:09,039 --> 00:42:11,480 also like screwed a bunch of people and like you know, 890 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,000 did a ton of like environmental damage and ruined a 891 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,440 bunch of you know, culture. So it's like there's all 892 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,079 these like bigger questions of like okay, like where and 893 00:42:19,119 --> 00:42:21,480 when does even a good legacy stick around for and 894 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,639 like how long does it change as cultural trans change? 895 00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:26,559 And so it seems like, you know, I think it's 896 00:42:26,559 --> 00:42:28,000 a very important point, I guess, to kind of have 897 00:42:28,119 --> 00:42:32,159 us recognize that like there's more work to do now 898 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,039 than there is like in the potential future. 899 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:34,519 Speaker 1: You know. 900 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I'm glad you mentioned retirement as well, because 901 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,440 another side of the coin of being too focused and 902 00:42:44,639 --> 00:42:47,199 obsessed with legacy is that you have a lot of 903 00:42:47,199 --> 00:42:52,840 people in their sixties seventies eighties who are perfectly healthy 904 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,119 and capable of having an amazing impact on their local communities, 905 00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,920 that don't feel like they can do anything because it's 906 00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:03,199 too late to build a legacy at this stage. They 907 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,559 feel like, oh, like, you know, now, I only have 908 00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:08,199 a few decades left, Like there's no point. Most people 909 00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:11,199 who build a really big legacy they got started earlier, 910 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,639 they did that over the course of their enterier career. 911 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,199 It's too late, right if you stop focusing on legacy 912 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,119 and on generativt right now in the present moment. It's 913 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,920 never too late to get started with any kind of 914 00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:27,800 you know, meaningful, impactful project. 915 00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: That you want. 916 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,599 Speaker 2: I love that point, yes, because it is it is like, 917 00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:33,440 oh yeah, it's it's like no, it's it's too late 918 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,719 when you're dead, you know. But it's like when you're 919 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,719 if you're living then yeah, exactly right. And and that's 920 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,039 the thing, it's like people are living now here, right, 921 00:43:40,079 --> 00:43:42,119 so it's like set of a legacy, we need like 922 00:43:42,199 --> 00:43:43,360 a generacy. 923 00:43:44,599 --> 00:43:47,199 Speaker 1: You know. But that that's a really powerful point too. 924 00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:49,199 Speaker 2: And I think also with that too, and something I 925 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,639 take from you know again thematically through the book too, 926 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,960 is like it's not like having the biggest impact. 927 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: It's not doing the most things, right. 928 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,599 Speaker 2: It's not again, it's not the quantity thing necessarily, right, 929 00:43:58,599 --> 00:44:00,000 It's like not do ten more things. 930 00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:01,559 Speaker 1: It's more like look for. 931 00:44:01,519 --> 00:44:03,559 Speaker 2: That that quality at that that those kind of chirosk 932 00:44:03,559 --> 00:44:05,679 experiences that you can have with folks, whether it's cooking 933 00:44:05,679 --> 00:44:07,760 a meal with somebody or like your neighbors are taking 934 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,400 their trash out. You know, it's like those things are 935 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,199 actually what people remember, you know at the end of 936 00:44:12,199 --> 00:44:14,800 the day, versus Oh, I wrote three thousand you know 937 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,880 pages in this dissertation that no one read. You know, 938 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,920 it's like it's big and important, as we all know, 939 00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:21,800 but like at the same time, you know, it's it's 940 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,320 it's not necessarily it might be the think it changes 941 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,440 somebody's life, but it probably won't change as many people's lives. 942 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,079 I mean, you know, but again that's the future thing, right, 943 00:44:28,119 --> 00:44:29,639 what what what could my thesis do? 944 00:44:31,119 --> 00:44:31,320 Speaker 1: You know? 945 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 2: But I love this idea to have kind of reminding 946 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,360 us to come back to the here now. And also 947 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,320 that speaks to the mindfulness angle too, right that like 948 00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:39,519 if we're being present in kind of noting what am 949 00:44:39,559 --> 00:44:42,599 I experiencing in this moment with self with others, you know. 950 00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:44,679 Then that also says this is this is that moment 951 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,559 of generation, you know. And one piece of that too, 952 00:44:47,599 --> 00:44:50,239 that another kind of bow to tie there, which I 953 00:44:50,519 --> 00:44:53,079 really appreciated that you explored too, is like they did 954 00:44:53,199 --> 00:44:55,400 playing and dancing right, like these have to be important 955 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,480 parts of our work and how we do and like 956 00:44:58,639 --> 00:45:00,440 and like this resonated with me too, because it was 957 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,280 like when I I left a corporate job a few 958 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,719 years ago and I was I was in the kind 959 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:07,760 of path of like I don't know what I'm like, 960 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,000 I was doubt, you know, I'm not sure I was 961 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:09,239 going to do. 962 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 1: I wanted to figure out the next thing. 963 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, I ended up taking a 964 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,360 month long road trip and like did some speaking engagements 965 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,559 and like visited family and it was like this very nice, 966 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:18,960 like first time I've done the thing. 967 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,159 Speaker 1: I was like, I was gonna take the great American 968 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:20,559 road job. 969 00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 2: I've never done that, you know, and it was like 970 00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:25,400 this very like it was perfect timing and this right moment. 971 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,760 But it's this it was like I had zero schedule, 972 00:45:28,159 --> 00:45:29,760 like I should I did be at this place in 973 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,079 this date, but how I got there and like what 974 00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:34,840 I did in between, and that was actually one of 975 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:36,719 the most important things I could have done at the time, 976 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,480 because it was like, let me put that space into 977 00:45:38,519 --> 00:45:40,360 experience this moment now where I don't have to be 978 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,119 anywhere else, I don't have to be thinking about what 979 00:45:42,159 --> 00:45:47,159 I should be doing, and it like changes your your perception, 980 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,039 right because you're like, I'm watching trees and I'm sitting 981 00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:52,000 at this rest stop, and I'm looking at these dogs 982 00:45:52,079 --> 00:45:53,480 running around in this yard, you know, and it's like 983 00:45:54,079 --> 00:45:56,559 it's very you know, spacious, I guess in one way, 984 00:45:56,559 --> 00:45:58,159 and you kind of realize there is that space in 985 00:45:58,199 --> 00:46:00,599 the center. Once you finally kind of stop moving for 986 00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:02,800 a second, you realize how much space is actually around you. 987 00:46:04,079 --> 00:46:06,119 Speaker 1: And it was I guess from all that. 988 00:46:06,039 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 2: Came this idea of playfulness, right, like let me I 989 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,159 can play with what I could do, what this could be. 990 00:46:10,199 --> 00:46:12,400 And so I'm kind of curious to thoughts about this too, like, 991 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:13,960 you know, how did you come to play as one 992 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,840 of these key key pieces of like finding joy and work, 993 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,000 finding joy and experimentation because it is fun, I think, 994 00:46:20,079 --> 00:46:20,360 you know. 995 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you did mention at the being of 996 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:31,199 our conversation, how children are naturally curious, and another another 997 00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:34,559 behavior that they have that is very natural to them 998 00:46:34,639 --> 00:46:41,000 is learning through play, exploring through play, being naturally playful 999 00:46:41,039 --> 00:46:43,559 about anything that they do and their approach, and also 1000 00:46:43,679 --> 00:46:48,039 connecting and relating to others through play and playfulness. I 1001 00:46:48,079 --> 00:46:50,559 know it may sound a little bit antithetic with the 1002 00:46:50,679 --> 00:46:54,039 scientific mindset, but it's actually really important because a lot 1003 00:46:54,079 --> 00:46:58,239 of scientific discoveries happen through being playful, open minded, looking 1004 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,239 at things in a different way, asking questions are non obvious, 1005 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,199 so you can really also approach problems and challenges in 1006 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:10,639 your life from this angle of playfulness and just asking yourself, 1007 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,400 what if I approached this a little bit more like 1008 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,000 a game. What if I stop caring so much about 1009 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:21,159 the outcome? What if this was fun? And very often 1010 00:47:21,199 --> 00:47:24,039 when you ask yourself these questions and you just start 1011 00:47:24,119 --> 00:47:27,480 playing a little bit more with ideas, with projects, with challenges, 1012 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,199 you'll not only discover new ways of approaching these things 1013 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,039 you're working on, but it will just be more fun 1014 00:47:35,079 --> 00:47:36,679 and enjoyable to you while you're working there. 1015 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,880 Speaker 2: I love it, so I think I encourage us all 1016 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,000 just get out there and play, right. It's like remembering 1017 00:47:41,039 --> 00:47:43,480 that that it turns out we get all serious, but 1018 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,079 it's like life can be fun, you know, as creepy 1019 00:47:45,119 --> 00:47:46,559 as the Joker was in the dark night, like when 1020 00:47:46,559 --> 00:47:48,679 he's asking why so serious that there's something to it? Right, 1021 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,760 It's like we can we can have fun with this, right, 1022 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,840 I think so Again, thank you so much for chatting 1023 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,760 with me too, Like this has been super fun to 1024 00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,719 kind of think through playful right, to kind of think 1025 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,679 through these ideas, And I appreciate the work that you're 1026 00:48:01,679 --> 00:48:04,159 putting out. It is important for us as so many 1027 00:48:04,159 --> 00:48:06,079 folks are rethinking what they can do for their career 1028 00:48:06,079 --> 00:48:09,760 paths and again like retirement, like why wait, these questions 1029 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,239 think are really important for us to kind of learn 1030 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,960 to let go of legacy and negative perceptions of procrastination 1031 00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:18,599 and kind of stop talking about time as this one 1032 00:48:18,679 --> 00:48:21,519 linear pathway, but we can actually experiment, you know, around 1033 00:48:21,519 --> 00:48:25,000 ideas and around ideas, and so if folks both want 1034 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,159 to learn more, I'm excited for them to check out 1035 00:48:26,159 --> 00:48:27,599 you book. You know you've got nest Labs. Also to 1036 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:29,519 tell me a bit about nest Labs. So folks want 1037 00:48:29,519 --> 00:48:30,920 to get it. Even course, you got community, you get 1038 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,679 a whole, you get a whole like great world there too. 1039 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,239 So what's what's happening over in the in the lab 1040 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,239 space that folks can that folks need to know about. 1041 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 3: Yes, So nest Labs. I write a weekly newsletter that 1042 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,000 I send you about one hundred thousand people every week 1043 00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:48,079 on Thursday, so that's completely free. You can sign up 1044 00:48:48,119 --> 00:48:49,639 and I discuss a lot of the topics that we 1045 00:48:49,679 --> 00:48:52,920 talked about today. There's also a private community where we 1046 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,960 have online courses and coaching, little workshops, and we also 1047 00:48:57,079 --> 00:49:00,880 conduct experiments all together, so you can your little luck 1048 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,599 book there and announce your experiment, and then everybody's kind 1049 00:49:04,639 --> 00:49:09,280 of like joining in supporting you, providing feedback and supporting accountability. 1050 00:49:10,199 --> 00:49:13,519 So yeah, so that's next Labs. And then there's the 1051 00:49:13,559 --> 00:49:17,480 book obviously that's coming out very soon, and that's separate. 1052 00:49:17,559 --> 00:49:20,400 You can go on tiny experiments dot org and you 1053 00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:21,320 can learn more about it. 1054 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:22,800 Speaker 2: We'll definitely a link to it in the show notes. Now, 1055 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:24,639 all that good stuff, so folks can find out your work. 1056 00:49:24,639 --> 00:49:26,159 But thank you again so much for putting all this 1057 00:49:26,199 --> 00:49:28,119 out there in the world. I think it's it's such 1058 00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:31,159 important topics and conversations and timely for where we're at. 1059 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,599 So thank you for generating so many good things and 1060 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,000 great to talk with you today. 1061 00:49:36,559 --> 00:49:37,880 Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Adam, thank you,