Speaker 1: Welcome to this after life.
Speaker 2: Everybody really excited to have you joining us today, as
always in your host Edam Gainwell, I'm thrilled to be
joined today with doctor and Laura Lecon. She's the founder
of nest Labs and the author of a really really
cool fourth coming book I'm excited to dive into today
with y'all. It's called Tiny Experiments how to live freely
in a goal obsessed world, and this is something that
definitely resonated with me as someone who is both goal
obsessed and trying to get out of that circuit.
Speaker 1: So and Lork, thank you so much for joining me
on the podcast today.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to
chat out.
Speaker 2: So one thing that I'm really particularly excited to talk
with you about is the way that your work intersects
with some of the most pressing questions that a lot
of us are facing today, and things like how do
I find fulfillment in a world that I think it's
pushing me in one direction, you know, go get this degree,
get this job, do this thing, x y Z. You know,
it's always this very linear kind of path, and we're
finding ourselves in these worlds of different kind of limits now,
whether it's thinking about the mental health that I have,
the kind of work that I want to do, the
environmental constraints that like I feel like the linear path
doesn't quite doesn't quite work, you know, as as it
seemed like it used to. And then there's just the
other side of the equation that's like, how do we
both best draw from kind of modern science and contemporary
thinking as well as like the wisdom of past and
present cultures of of you know, how people lived well
in the past. Right, how do I like think about
all these pieces together? And so I think it's exciting
because your work brings us right into the center of
this this area and again something that's super relevant because
we're seeing more and more younger generations talking about mental
health and what pathways need.
Speaker 1: To be for life.
Speaker 2: So I think to kind of kick us off, you know,
one of the areas that I think encapsulates this is
that you that you kind of talk about, is that
our kind of pathway of setting goals is broken. And
I love this idea because I agree, you know, but
I think it's it's something that we find ourselves hitting
walls so many times. So like, let's kind of open
that up and start us here in terms of like
what what what is it like?
Speaker 1: How do we great goals make?
Speaker 2: It seems like something you can't really break, but we
somehow manage to do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So if you kind of go back to the
most common definition of goals, the one that most people
are using, it really means getting to a specific destination.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: We define where we want to get what success means
to us, and then we work really really hard to
get there. And then two things might happen. Either you
don't get there and you're deeply and happy about that
and dissatisfied because you feel like you feel or interestingly,
you get there and you're also disappointed because you thought
that by getting there, all of a sudden everything would
be perfect, you'd be happy, you'd get everything you desire,
and you realize that actually this goal doesn't unlock infinite happiness.
And then there's maybe another goal now that you can chase.
So it's this infinite treadmill. We're all on chasing the
next goal one after the other without ever feeling fulfilled.
That's really how we manage our goals today. If you
I loved how you mentioned connecting scientific with them, but
also antioned philosophical wid because if you go back to
how scientists approach progress and success, for scientists, success is
not getting to a specific destination, is just learning something new.
As long as you've learned something new, this is success.
And that may not look like what you have predicted
when we started, right, and this looks like for a scientists,
like a cycle of experimentation. They ask a question, They're like, Okay,
what is going on here, Let's formulate the research question,
let's test it, and then let's see what happens. Right, Well,
those cycles of growth is really how a lot of
ancient civilizations and ancient philosophies recommend the way you approach
human growth as well. Right, It's all fields and cycles
and circles and seasons. It's never that very linear path
that is predetermined and that you have to follow with
specific milestones and goals that are that mean failure if
you don't reach them. Right, It's about transformation and reinventing yourself.
So to me, that's the main thing about reinventing our
relationship to goals is really letting go of this linear
approach to them and having a more psychical.
Speaker 2: I love that idea too, and it is it is
something interesting too that you know, I was always when
I was studying anthropology as a you know, in school
back in the day, it was like I guess I
still study it today too, but like, you know, when
I was formally studying it, you know, I would always
be intrigued when we would find a group or culture
or you know, when folks were talking about the syxical
notion of time versus a linear notion, and like, even
thinking about that is really interesting when one we kind
of talk about, you know, time moves forward, right.
Speaker 1: We even used like the idea of progress right when
you write about in the book too, of this idea of.
Speaker 2: Like progress is a directional or like a kind of
orientation that we're moving in a certain you know, pathway,
and like that, like, I think we often don't always
connect the idea of like time as being linear and
then also our goals as a thing that like we
move forward and do x y z blah blah, even
though like that's one hundred percent how we make it
to do right and how we think about the.
Speaker 1: Pathway that we're going down.
Speaker 2: But then the right's idea of like seasons is a
great example there of like we all know what a
season like, there's four of them, you know, and they
move and they move our year in a way. And
like recognizing that idea is super fun. Then that of
course I'm going to put my nerd hat and be like,
oh yeah, we can talk about chakras and wheels too,
and like everything is kind of turning and moving in
and on itself in cyclical and spiral time, and so
that is I think a very cool way to help
us ref rethink that.
Speaker 1: And so I'm curious about this too, because the other.
Speaker 2: Thing that you said here that was was I want
to think with is like they did when we were
talking about what scientific you know, thinking is doing, and
like we talk about what you predict something that will
happen and make a hypothesis that I'm going to do X,
and then we're going to see why I result, and
if we do or don't see it, that's still helpful.
Speaker 1: And this is something that that I've seen too in.
Speaker 2: Terms of you know, publication around kind of pure reviewed
journal articles that there's like a positivity bias, like I
want to publish that something happened, meaning there's there's an
anti negativity bias not that like we don't want to
say negative result, but we don't want to say something
nothing happened. But that's totally useful for science too, to
say we did not find and the change when we
did X, you know, and like why didn't happen? And
so even this interesting idea that that like I'm curious
how we think about this, Like when we say we
predict the thing, we want to see a kind of
positive change results, and like we look away from one
that that feels negative, and so that kind of pushes
I feel like it builds a bit of that linearity
right where it's like if I don't see a specific
type of change that I that I predict I'm going
to see, then it somehow it doesn't doesn't count.
Speaker 1: Does that Does that work?
Speaker 3: M I love? I love that you're mentioning this because
you know there's a big movement at the moment in
science for open science and pre registering studies during your
study is basically posting your protocol online for everybody to see,
and then you run the study, and then you can't
go back and change the pole or what you were
you were you said you were going to do based
on the results, which sounds crazy that this is not
the norm, right, It's not so, so you're forced to
accept and to publish whatever results you get, whether positive
or negative, or whatever results you get, you have to
publish them. And I feel like in the way that
you manage your goals and the way you design personal experiments,
which I took about in the book, this is why
it's so important to define what is the experiment you're
going to run, and what are the parameters, and to
stick to it until the end of the experiment, and
to really withhold judgment until you're done. So, for example,
if you say that you're going to run an experiment
of publishing a new podcast episode every week for a
six months, you can't stop in the middle and say, like, ef,
I don't know like this and I'm not sure this
is working and then decide that nothing happened and not
learn anything from it. I mean, you can, but that
wouldn't be a very good way or useful way of
running an experiment. The useful way of doing this is
you decide what you're going to do, you run the experiment,
you collect all of that data without any judgment yet,
and at the end of the experiment, You look and
you reflect and you ask yourself, Okay, did I like this?
Did I enjoy it? Was that good? What benefits did
it bring? Or was that horrible? Maybe I hated every
secle of it. And that's data too. That's also useful
for you to learn and to grow and to decide
what your next experiment is going to be. So you
can also take some of that new approach to science
that we have now that is more open and more honest,
I want to say, and apply that to the way
you run experiments and your day.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, it's because it's we do see like an
ongoing conversations too, in terms of like a desire for
more transparency and openness across the board, right, whether it
is like how we're doing science, whether it's politics, you know,
whether it's how I'm getting my degree, because it's like
people love also these kind of more authentic conversations where
it's like two people talking about their challenges working, getting
a job, trying to find something out, versus like here's
the five things you got to do to get your
resume to have it ready for the you know whatever
the interview and it's interesting to kind of kind of
note that like there is this that desire to see
and like that can be a place also to the
notions of like kind of personal experimentation of of what
I can do with my life, which I think, I
think is really nice, especially because we're kind of seeing again,
like we're running up to these these sort of different
walls now or different kind of limitations of like this
kind of linear path doesn't quite do it for me, right,
And like especially you know, we're seeing you know obviously
AI and things are changing in technology, you know, how
we are learning, how we're playing and spending time together
on social media this before, right, and kind of changing
how we communicate with one another, so that this interesting
idea of like we can't just keep doing what we've
always done, right, we have to kind of rethink these pieces,
and like I mean, I guess to help comcrotize this too. Also,
like you know, you have a really interesting story also
that you you know, you you did the tech you
did the tech pathway right, you kind of found your
way into the heart of the Google mecha, you know,
and then realize that things weren't quite working out the
way you had thought. And so I mean, tell folks,
if you're not familiar with your story, like a little
bit about how that happened and how that like kind
of cracked open the idea of like, wait, let me
rethink literally how I'm going to be doing my career
pathway and my life could be.
Speaker 3: So I used to have I used to follow a
very very linear care pathway. Actually I went to a
pretty good school. I tried to get good grades, and
then I got a job at Google. And once I
found myself there, I discovered that they had an also
fairly linear way of managing success, really defining it, codifying it,
and then in a very kind of almost yeah, I
guess Google is a company made of engineers, right, So
they had really engineered what success looked like and how
it worked inside of the company. So you had this
red brick that was telling you exactly what to do,
when to do it, what kind of projects to work on,
what skills to be able to demonstrate, and if you
did that, and if you followed that re brick, you
would end up climbing the ladder again in a very
linear way. But you had high visibility and clarity in
terms of what success looked like. And I felt like
which was a deep realization for me, but it really
felt like to me after a while, as if someone
had spoiled the movie. I knew exactly what was going
to happen, and I somehow lost interest in the game
because I knew exactly what would happen to the main character.
When I left Google, I decided to start a startup,
and that was also interesting because I really thought I
was leaving that linear path, but I ended up repeating
a lot of the same things that I was doing
at Google. I tried to follow a playbook, I downloaded
all of the case studies from other startups, and I
tried to figure out how to climb that ladder just
a different letter. And it's only when my startup failed
and I found myself completely lost with no clear next
run on the ladder that I could climb, that I
had to finally stop and take a moment to reflect
and ask myself, what is it that I truly want
to explore? What am I actually curious about? If external
validation and money was not part of the equation. What
is something I would want to be doing every day
when I wake up, even if nobody was watching. And
for me, it's always been the brain. I've always been
fascinated with the way we think, the way we feel,
and so I went back to school to study neuroscience
and ended up on the path that I am on today,
which is very wiggly. I generally have no idea where
I'm going. You know, I just wrote a book, i
finished my PhD. I'm also running a small business, I'm
running online, I'm doing a bit of speaking here and there.
And the reason why I love this path today is
that I have no idea what's going to happen in
the movie. I don't know what's going to happen next,
and I'm a little bit surprised almost every day with
what's on my calendar. And I think that's the.
Speaker 1: Way that resonates.
Speaker 2: And I think that that's great too, that like you
kind of recognize when things aren't working, like how do
you then sort of reconjigure things? But then it's like
it does require this moment. And something important that you're
write about too is that we have to be okay
with that discomfort of not really knowing what what is
the next thing, But at the same time as as
you know it too, like there's the when you have
a curiosity mindset to it sentence says, Oh, this is exciting.
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going to happen. And this is
one of these things. I mean, there's two things that.
Speaker 2: Actually stuck out there that I think are really important
for us to think about. And I recognized when I was, like,
you know, reading your story, that one can be in
the kind of career treadmill and then both be burnt
out by the work and like doing too much and
then also bored at the same time, and like we
also don't realize like those seem like they're antithetical, like
how could I else both be like doing too much
and be like I don't want to do any of this,
you know, And like I've I've seen that in myself too,
in terms of like you know, putting work in kind
of the wrong pathway and then you realize that like
you're doing both these and it's like the board parts,
I think your point is really important. It's like I
know where the movie goes. I know exactly how to
what this ladder climbing would look like. I know where
I would go, and I can see it like and
like assessed to I want to be in that that
spot you know, and at the same time, I'm so busy,
I don't really have the energy to do that. And
how do I put those two signals together and say, wait,
maybe this is not the right piece. And the other
side is is this notion of for some for many
of us. I mean, it's scary to be like I
don't know what the next thing would be, right, and
so it's like this kind of curiosity versus kind of
reactive mindset, and and so I'm curious, like to kind
of help help folks think about how do we get
out of this box? And I feel like I'm kind
of stuck and I'm either burnt out and board or
or one or the other. But I'm kind of afraid
of like I don't know what to do next, right
either if I don't have the resources or I don't
know what the pathway, Like, how do I kind of
help put that mindset together in terms of being more
more curious versus reactive.
Speaker 3: I guess yeah, I think you'll you'll like that term,
considering that you're an anthro apologized. But in the book
I use the term self anthropology. And what I encourage
people to do is, again, if you think about the
scientific method and that cycle of experimentation. Scientists don't just
start testing stuff right there's a phase of observation. You
just observe how things are right now, and then you
ask yourself, how could they be different or why they're
working this way. Now, let's test this by designing an
experiment and collect data. But it all starts always with observation.
And what I call self anthropology in a bit of
a cheeky way, is basically the idea that you're going
to pretend that you're an anthropologist studying your own life
and the same way an anthropologist goes and studies a
different culture and look at it with fresh eyes, asking
why are they doing things this way? Why are they're
communicating this way? And why are you doing approaching this
in disorder and not that one? Why is this more
important to them than that other thing? And taking no
and really again without any judgment, just looking at how
things are working in that environment, you can learn a
lot about your life and you can discover patterns that
you may not have noticed in the past because of
exactly what you just described earlier. You're so easy trying
to climb that ladder that you never take the time
to take a little step back and really ask yourself, wait,
why am I even doing this thing? And why am
I doing it this way? So I encourage people who
are in this situation feeling a little bit stuck, not
quite sure what to do next, to just go back
to starting with observation. You don't need to have the
solution yet, you don't need to have a plan yet.
You just need to observe what is currently working, what
is currently not working for you, just taking little notes
and in a very practical way. An exercise that I
do with members of my community is I tell them,
for twenty four hours, you're becoming the anthrologist untroplgious of
your own life. You can do that in your Apple
notes and your Google keep, whatever notes you're taking on
your phone, and anytime you notice something interesting as you
go about your day, you take a notes. That could
be after a conversation with someone where you're like, oh,
I feel weirdly energized after talking for twenty minutes about
this obscure topic with the colleague, or that could be
things like, oh, I feel really drained after giving this presentation,
or I was feeling anxious all morning before this meeting
little observations like this, just do that for twenty four hours.
Those are going to be the seeds for you to
then decide what you want to try to tweak and
play with and the experiment with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2: I think it's it is interesting because oftentimes we want
to add that value judgment right away is like am
I either seeing a thing or I'm not seeing a
thing right or that, Yeah, the presentation was hard, but
I don't then say it. Let me observe and actually,
how is I emotionally feeling? How is I physically feeling?
How was I saying other people reacting in the scenario
or did I feel energized? And like that is a
really important thing that yes, obviously cool plug for anthropology,
you know, but like this bonus too because even this
idea of kind of withholding judgment, I think is really important,
right and probeague of mine Jay Hasburg, you know athopologists,
He's been at metaphor a long time. You know, it's
also in the tech sector, Like wrote a book called
ethnographic Thinking, and one of the kind of features that
like goes with design thinking is this idea of withholding
judgment as we're observing as we're getting a sense of
like what it is that we're seeing, because we do
want to be like that's either unimportant data or that
one's the most important data, even that like interrogating why
why is this more or less important?
Speaker 1: Right is? I think it's a really.
Speaker 2: Important part to be able to kind of learn to
pay attention to right and have that kind of curiosity
and willingness to do so, because it is tricky and
uncomfortable to be like, let me just watch how I
feel and watch how this is happening, and like as
if I was an alien coming down to earth and
like saying, okay, what what's you know?
Speaker 1: How is this this this space working? You know?
Speaker 3: And to your point, I just want to add because
I think you're making a really important point here. We
talked about how we're too busy to take the time
and give ourselves the space to reflect on how we
feel and how things are going. But to your point here,
I feel like sometimes also we keep ourselves busy because
we're maybe too scared of deeply looking at how we're
actually feeling. Because we know deep down that if we
start doing this, if we start honestly observing the way
we feel, inside and the way we behave on a
day to day basis. This might lead to very big changes,
and big changes can be very scary, So sometimes it
just feels a little bit more reassuring and comfortable to
just keep busy and not look too closely as to
how we feel.
Speaker 2: That's a great point, and it is one of those
you know, I'm sure you hear the two words someone's
how you doing, I'm just busy, you know, and that's
like the everybody's response, and truthfully, yes we are all busy.
But like it's this funny point of like it's either
become a badge of honor and or I think you're
right that for many of us in oftentimes it's like
that's why I don't have to think about the other
actual questions, because the questions are hard, right.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's like it's one of those
things that you.
Speaker 2: Know, if you've done it before, you know what will
feel better when you do it, But it's hard to excavate,
you know, the old bones that you that you don't
want to do because I think it's something else that's
important that you help me think about too through your book,
is that this this idea that like we all have
a course of inner curiosity, right, and like we were
born with that's that's how kids and babies play. I
have I have a you know, almost six month old
son now, and it's like watching him just begin to
discover and he has zero preconceptions of how things are
supposed to go, and you know, to often to hilarity, right,
you know, it's it's important to recognize like that's the
kind of the you know, the childlike wonder.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like it's very different when you're.
Speaker 2: Watching your own kid do it, you know, but it's
like this this funny thing of like learning that that's
that's going to be there, and like, you know, I
always want to make sure that, you know, I keep
that or like we like how do we keep that
in our lives? And so you note that that we
often see that kind of inner curiosity kind of quailed
over time, right. I think part of it is is,
you know, too, like through the linear thinking model, it's like, oh,
there's not a ton of space for curiosity. If it's
like go down this put this is you know, you
can be curious in this little box and that's it,
you know.
Speaker 1: So so some like, let's think about this.
Speaker 2: You know, oftentimes that kind of inner curiosity gets quelled,
like how do we either kind of excavator on earth
that you know, like we have observations? Was one bucket,
Like what else can we do in that area to
kind of say, let me, let me poke at that
that little that little voice, you know, maybe be less busy.
Speaker 3: And so so there's observation. And then once you're you
start absorbing those different patterns, you can get back into
a bit more like an active mode and start playing
with ideas, and we be testing some of them. And
this is where I really like the container of the
experiment for this, because again, as you mentioned, where we're like, okay,
how do I even practice curiosity if as been in
a you know, just purely execution climbing the latter mode?
How do I reinject this into my life? That's why
my book is called Tiny Experiments and that Big Experiments,
because I really feel like keeping them small means that
you can integrate them in your life without making big
changes yet, and I think they will result in big
changes and transformation. But you don't have to do that
from the get go. You can start with something quite small,
and so those seats of inspiration that those observations that
you made, you can look at them and then ask yourself, Okay,
what something that could be different? What could I play with?
What could I change? What could I test? So, for example,
if you've noticed that a specific topic gives you a
lot of energy, what if you blocked an hour or
two hours every week to explore that topic, no emails,
your phone in another room, you tell the kids that
they have to go and play and do something else,
because for one or two hours, you're just going to
be a nerd and explore everything you want to learn
about this topic. And do that a little bit every
week and maybe take notes, etc. Just for the purpose
of exploring an idea that you're curious about. If you've
noticed that you're extremely tired in the morning and you
can't really get good job done, good work done, maybe
try shifting some of your low effort admin tasks to
the morning. Test that for a few weeks, and again
take little note, see how that feels. Is that working
for you or not? And you can really design those
small personal experiments in any area of your life. It
can be in your relationships with your partner, saying, let's
experiment with a weekly date night where we both come
with prepared questions for the other one and we just
ask each other about our lives. You can experiment with
your health, with your creativity, with your work processes, knowledge management,
any of those different kind of things, and by doing so,
it will also make you even more observant of the
way these things are changing your life. You'll be more preasent.
And so even if there's no big milestone or outcome
that you can pin and say this is success, you
will actually progress, you will actually change, you will actually
evolve as a human being. And to me, that is
a better definition of senes No.
Speaker 2: I love that too, and I think and it puts
us pushes us also to this like the more circular
kind of framing versusly like I hit milestone X y Z,
and now I've done things.
Speaker 1: You know, now I'm now I'm.
Speaker 2: Ten percent better, you know, not to hit on ten
percent happier but interesting idea, right inter the meditation, you know,
But like, but I think that I think that's a great,
a great point to kind of recognize that it can
both be anything, right, And I love the idea of like, yeah,
let's either come with you know, set date night for
you know, for six weeks, we're going to have here's
ten questions that we want to know about each other,
and like they're gonna get progressively harder to answers, but
you know, or whatever it is, or even this is
like yeah, like are you're not a morning person? Like
that's actually fine, Like don't let visit tell you that
you're you're crappy. It's like just then change your task
that you don't have to eat what was it Mark
Twain to eat the eat the frog first or whatever,
eat the biggest frog first. It's like, no, eat the
biggest frog later, if you want to eat the smallest
one first, if that's easier for you, right, and kind
of recognizing that like it you know with that too,
like this the kind.
Speaker 1: Of time boxing it, right.
Speaker 2: I think it's really really an important piece that you
point out too, because it's like, hey, how do I
know if it's working and be like, well, part of it,
like say, if I'm gonna do it for six weeks
or one week or a month or whatever it is,
and like commit to doing that and then you can
actually see, Okay, what how do I feel after doing
that for this amount of time. And it's funny because
you know, as someone that is a uh is a
continuously bad planner, that like it's you know, Philly's fist
hard to put these things. But when I put a
small time box of something, like it's much easier to
then both get something done but then feel like it's
it's more I can accomplish it, right, It's like it
kind of gets sort of the paralysis of.
Speaker 1: Like how do I how do I do this? You know?
Speaker 2: And that that ties into this other piece of that
was really interesting that you talk about, is that like
it's like chronos versus chiros, right, it's like the quality
and quantity of time. So like thinking about this idea
of like both how much time am I putting into something?
But like as I'm working on something, it's not about
did I put in again We're.
Speaker 1: Gonna hit on numbers here, ten thousand hours, like do
this thing.
Speaker 2: It's like that's not necessarily the point that we're talking
about here, right, but that that's like a big experimise
is like a hell of a lot of work, right,
But I could do something smaller.
Speaker 1: So, so how do we think about this idea?
Speaker 2: Of like this, the Chronos and chiros in terms of
the time we're putting into something.
Speaker 3: Yes, so yeah, you perfectly defined that Chronos quantity of time,
Cairos quantity of time, and the ancient Greeks has those
two different works to describe time. And so Chronos is
really the time of clocks, of meetings, of saying let's
be here at ten am and we're going to work
on this for one hour, whereas when you focus on Cairos,
what you're reading trying to optimize for is that of
time rather than as much time as possible. And so
if you have twenty minutes of really deep work where
you're highly connected with and inflow with whatever you're working on,
that's going to have more value than spending ten thousand
hours practicing whatever skill. It's also knowing sometimes that some
moments have more weight and more quality than others, and
that also can help you navigate decisions in your life. So,
for example, that's knowing that in this moment, maybe bad
time with your kid is more important than answering this
email that is in your inbox. That's really having this
approach of Cairos and knowing that each minute has a
specific and special unique quality to it that you can
attune yourself to and really decide what you want to experience,
what do you want your really your your life and
your experience to be in this moment, rather than having
the chronos approach where each minute is equal and the
goal is to you as much as possible using all
of those tiny boxes that all add up to your life.
And the best way I think to show to really
for anyone listening to this to know that they have
experienced chiros, they know what it is intrinsically is that
you know how sometimes you have a conversation with someone
and then you look at the time and it was
four hours talking with them, and you really didn't see
the time going. That's chiros. That shows you that time
is elastic depending on its quality, and that other times,
you know, things go very slowly if you don't want
to be here, if you're worried, you don't feel connected
with whoever you're with. So that's chiros. We've all experienced it,
but we can be a little bit more intentional with it.
Speaker 2: No, I love that idea too, and it's it's it's
counter to of course the other like I think frustrating
prevailing wisdom, right that time is money, right, Because then
it's like because a dollar is an individual thing, right,
that it's like worth this much. And like if we
say time is that, then it has a different value too.
And it's like, but it doesn't, right, Like we have
a subjective experience that matters of what we're doing and
what we're doing it, and like getting in like as
you said too, like that flow right where that time
just flies by and something it's been a couple hours
and you're like, wow, I didn't realize what I was
reading books, talking to a friend, you know, watching a movie,
playing with your kid, you know, going on a walk,
or I mean, or if you're I don't know, if
you're coding, it's fine too, right, It's like doesn't matter
what it is. But we all know, we all have
we've had that, right. I mean, I think it is
really powerful to recognize that that we It's helpful to
like again like look back and reflect on those moments
and know that when we had them and giving different
weight to time is such an important piece. And I
think that that speaks to this the like the importance
of a mindfulness approach that you also talked about right that.
Speaker 1: You know what is mindfulness?
Speaker 2: Meaning as you think abo this parayly, oftentimes we're like, oh,
some people say, oh, it's like meditating. It's like maybe
like part of it, but like I think it's really this.
It's like, am I aware of the experience that I'm having?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: And am I kind of being more attuned to that
itself versus you know, I meditated for ten minutes?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: And it's funny because oftentimes, like if people say I
don't know either how to be mindful or what the
earth has like some foof food stuff, I don't know,
it's like, well, then just sit and meditate for ten
minutes and we'll give you a time to start with.
But then, you know, think about how you felt during
that ten minutes and if it was anxious, that's actually fine.
And if it was like bored, that's okay too. If
it's sleepy, that's fine. If it was excited, that's also great.
And it's like recognizing that we don't need to judge
the chronos there, right, It's like the chronos gave us
just a bounded moment to try something, but really, then
we're going after the cairos after the.
Speaker 1: End of it right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And that non judgmental aspect is so important.
There are a lot of experiences that we simply cannot control,
whether you're you to external factors or internal chemistry or
just you know, events relationships that we have. There are
simply a lot of things that we feel and that
we think that are out of our control. But then
we have somehow somewhat a little bit more control over
how we respond to our own thoughts and emotions. And
this is exactly what you're describing here, being aware of
them but also not judging them, not judging necessary whether
they're good or they're bad. They just happened, and you
can learn from any of these experiences, whether good or bad.
That kind of like goes back to what we were
talking about earlier. Also, is that if you start disconnecting
your actions from this artificial idea of success, you can
just again be aware and observe of, you know, how
you feel, your emotions, your thoughts, et cetera. As you
explore an idea or a path or something that you're
curious about, and if you don't get to the place
you expected to get to, that's fine. That can actually
be good. Something unexpected, something surprising something that you can
learn from. And I think that connects to my.
Speaker 1: It's a great point too.
Speaker 2: And yeah, if we're able to not judge a prejudge scenario.
Speaker 1: What's interesting about that too? You know?
Speaker 2: That has me me thinking that I like.
Speaker 1: The idea that.
Speaker 2: The quality of our experiences in time as we can
it matters. I don't want to prejudge that. But then
also we have things like procrastination that I don't want
to do something around, like you know, I just can't
get started, right, And what I love is that you
also tackle this idea that it's like, well, actually that's
not a bad thing, right, you know, we we have
such a negative idea because like productivity also again in
modern business parlance, right, it's.
Speaker 1: Like go Google do this. You know, here's your here's
your five points of to do list.
Speaker 2: Procrastination we're always fighting as somehow, how are we always
fighting against this thing we don't want to know, we
don't want to do or don't want to start. Like
that's curious, But I think I like the way you
flip this for us and say, actually, let's rethink what
procrastination is doing here. It's not just this bad guy
that we have to overcome what am I be telling
us something important? So I'll tell me a bit about
what that is. And then also like, how'd you How
did you come to that idea that procrastination is not
such a bad guy?
Speaker 3: If you all, yeah, it's a you know, this is
a kind of a thread that runs through the entire book, right,
is that any challenge can become an opportunity for growth
if you choose to approach it from a place of curiosity.
And I choose procrastination as an illustration of this because
I know this is something that most people think is bad.
Most people agree procrastination is bad. I don't want to
be procrastinating. If you look up online articles to try
and help you deal with procrastination or manage procrastination, most
of them are titled how to beat fascination. There's something
really violent going on yet, And so yeah, we really
want to get rid of it. And so I picked
that example as something that really most people just want
to get rid of, and showing how you can actually
grow and learn if you choose to approach it from
a place of curacity. Because what is procrastination really it's
a signal from your brain and your body, that something
is not quite right and that you're not in the
best conditions possible to do whether a task you feel
like you should be doing, and that problem can come
from different places. It can be a problem coming from
the task itself. So maybe actually you should not even
be doing that task in the first place. Maybe someone
else should be doing it, or maybe we should not
even be doing that task in the first place. It
ended up on your task list, it's been there, and
you've been feeling horrible about it for not doing it
for two weeks, but actually, nothing bad's going to happen
if nobody does that thing, so you can just move
it from your task list.
Speaker 1: So that.
Speaker 3: Could be the reason why you're procrastinating, is that subconsciously
you know there's no point doing this thing. Another reason
why you may be procrastinating is because the task is
just not fun, not enjoyable, not exciting. That's also a
very valid reason why you don't want to work on it.
And in that case, once you've identified this by approaching
it from a place of curiosity, you can say, okay, so, okay,
I do want to do the task. I think it
makes sense to do it, but how can I make
it fun, maybe work with someone, go to your favorite
coffee shop, et cetera. And other times. Another signal that
procrastination can be sending you is that, let's say, yes,
you're convinced you want to do it, it looks like fun,
and you're still not doing it. Why Probably because you
feel like you don't have the necessary skills or expertise
or tools not able to do it yourself. So in
that case, you can get those tools, you can get support,
you can get coaching, mentoring, but you're not stuck anymore.
And you notice when I go through all of those
different potential sources of procrastination that again there's no judgment there.
I'm really just looking at the signal and I'm asking, hey, procrastination,
what are you trying to tell me? Here? Almost talk
to it as if it was a friend and say, hey,
I know you're trying to tell me something. What are
you saying? I'm listening.
Speaker 2: I think that that's super important. It's and it's it's
like that power of reframing too, right. It's something that
I it's like I recognized years ago in my life too,
that that you know, one when I was feeling anxious
for something like you know kind of like this is
this doesn't feel great. You know, it's like you want
to kind of get rid of the feeling that you
feel like this isn't good. But then I kind of
learned to reframe and say, well, no, what is this.
What is this friend in my neighborhood here like trying
to tell me like it's trying to protect me for
some reason.
Speaker 1: It's like wants to make sure I'm okay.
Speaker 2: And it's like this interesting idea of like, oh, like anxiety,
you know, stop up to kind of say hello, let
me let me see what it has to say. In procrastination,
you know that resonates in that similar kind of way
that you know, in one box, this is a negative thing, right,
and the other side it's like what is this trying
to tell me? And like oh wait, maybe I need
to get some different kind of skills, or maybe we
can actually improve the process entirely. And you know that
the whatever the forty emails is supposed to stay, like
we can actually automate that process or whatever it is, right,
like recognizing we don't have to do it that specific way,
and so it's not procrastination that's the problem. It's like
us kind of seeing, you know, how can I move
through what needs to get done right? And like that
might be going around it, it might be you know, getting
skills for it. And I think that that's actually really
really helpful and like to generate something out of it, right,
And I think even this concept of kind of the
generative form of thinking is is something that I took
away from from the work too that I think is
really helpful because it kind of says when we have
a roadblock, that's asking ourselves is it a roadblock? And
then or what is the block trying to tell us?
Like and maybe again it is like I need to
get a different kind of pathway to get through it
or around it.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's something that really stuck with me too. Like so
one I've I've got my short term procrastination thinking. The
other side is like this like much longer legacy thinking,
which I thought was really interesting in a way to
approach this too, because it's like, you know, against linear pathway.
It's like I'm thinking about, Okay, what am I going
to accomplish across my boxes and my calendar and then
both either leave behind, But like legacy is an interesting
like challenge point because it's like, either what do I
leave behind when I when I die or or just
when I leave a company or something.
Speaker 1: Right, it's like how do people know what I did?
Speaker 2: And we're with a slight obsession with that also in
kind of today's contemporary culture, you know, and like you
also help us like smack that around a little bit
as well too. I guess that's finally metaphor we're asking
for gently massage it to can help but think play
differently about what it could be. So like let's go
to that set end of the spectrum too, Like so
we have legacy thinking now of like let's actually rethink
what we're trying to do there too, Like how does
that how does that reshape our thinking in your pathway?
Speaker 3: Yes, I absolutely had. I felt like I had to
have a chapter about this question in the book because
I know that a lot of the kind of people
like you, like me, who actually do care about having
an impact a positive impact on the world and the
people around us. As you said, this concept of legacy
making sure that we leave something behind were remembered and
we're really just having this reinsurance that it mattered that
we were here at some point it is something that
we all cling onto as if it would give meaning
to our lives. And what I want to do in
what I do in the book in the last chapter
actually is that I challenged that thinking. And what I
say is that you can create meaning in your life
in the here and now in present by shifting your
mindset from how am I going to be remembered when
I'm gone, which when you think about it makes absolutely
no sense. You're not. You're going to buy yourself to
enjoy all of that, you know, So shifting your mindset
to how can I be as generative as possible in
the present and the here and now positively contributing to
the lives of my fellow living human beings for sharing
this earth with me at the moment. And if everybody
did that, actually we would end up, in a indirect
way leaving a better legacy. But I don't think focusing
on leaving a better legacy is the way to go
about achieving that. So that's really what I advocate for,
is really trying to have the most positive impact possible
again today, and it doesn't have to be on in
the entire world. It can be on your local community, family, friends,
et cetera. The great thing about this approach as well,
which ties back to the idea again of experimentating, is
that you can see straight away if what you're doing
is working, and you can adapt your approach and you
can keep on tweaking until you get to the kind
of impact that you want to have. If you wait
until you're dead to for the results to be available,
you're not going to be able to do anything to
change the trajectory if that's not really where you want
it to.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a great point.
Speaker 2: And like, you know, while we're seeing also kind of
this I want to say rebellion, but it's also more
just like you know, this push against retirement is like
wait till you're like, I can't wait till I'm retired.
It's like why, you know, you know, do the things
like that the kind of push back we see if
people say, well, do what you want to do now,
like what are you waiting until you're potentially sixty five
or seventy or eighty, which you know, will we even
be able to retire?
Speaker 1: I don't know, so, I mean that's probably part of
the question there, you know.
Speaker 2: But but this idea that like yeah, why why are
we putting off basically what we want to see in
the world? Like that seems it, See when you think
about it, it's kind of crazy, right, You're like you
won't even be there, So it's like you might have
done some good, but like you know, the story might change.
And again, one of these things is like, you know,
depending who you ask, like say, Rockefeller did great things,
you know for the United States, is like, yeah, welly
also like screwed a bunch of people and like you know,
did a ton of like environmental damage and ruined a
bunch of you know, culture. So it's like there's all
these like bigger questions of like okay, like where and
when does even a good legacy stick around for and
like how long does it change as cultural trans change?
And so it seems like, you know, I think it's
a very important point, I guess, to kind of have
us recognize that like there's more work to do now
than there is like in the potential future.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I'm glad you mentioned retirement as well, because
another side of the coin of being too focused and
obsessed with legacy is that you have a lot of
people in their sixties seventies eighties who are perfectly healthy
and capable of having an amazing impact on their local communities,
that don't feel like they can do anything because it's
too late to build a legacy at this stage. They
feel like, oh, like, you know, now, I only have
a few decades left, Like there's no point. Most people
who build a really big legacy they got started earlier,
they did that over the course of their enterier career.
It's too late, right if you stop focusing on legacy
and on generativt right now in the present moment. It's
never too late to get started with any kind of
you know, meaningful, impactful project.
Speaker 1: That you want.
Speaker 2: I love that point, yes, because it is it is like,
oh yeah, it's it's like no, it's it's too late
when you're dead, you know. But it's like when you're
if you're living then yeah, exactly right. And and that's
the thing, it's like people are living now here, right,
so it's like set of a legacy, we need like
a generacy.
Speaker 1: You know. But that that's a really powerful point too.
Speaker 2: And I think also with that too, and something I
take from you know again thematically through the book too,
is like it's not like having the biggest impact.
Speaker 1: It's not doing the most things, right.
Speaker 2: It's not again, it's not the quantity thing necessarily, right,
It's like not do ten more things.
Speaker 1: It's more like look for.
Speaker 2: That that quality at that that those kind of chirosk
experiences that you can have with folks, whether it's cooking
a meal with somebody or like your neighbors are taking
their trash out. You know, it's like those things are
actually what people remember, you know at the end of
the day, versus Oh, I wrote three thousand you know
pages in this dissertation that no one read. You know,
it's like it's big and important, as we all know,
but like at the same time, you know, it's it's
it's not necessarily it might be the think it changes
somebody's life, but it probably won't change as many people's lives.
I mean, you know, but again that's the future thing, right,
what what what could my thesis do?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: But I love this idea to have kind of reminding
us to come back to the here now. And also
that speaks to the mindfulness angle too, right that like
if we're being present in kind of noting what am
I experiencing in this moment with self with others, you know.
Then that also says this is this is that moment
of generation, you know. And one piece of that too,
that another kind of bow to tie there, which I
really appreciated that you explored too, is like they did
playing and dancing right, like these have to be important
parts of our work and how we do and like
and like this resonated with me too, because it was
like when I I left a corporate job a few
years ago and I was I was in the kind
of path of like I don't know what I'm like,
I was doubt, you know, I'm not sure I was
going to do.
Speaker 1: I wanted to figure out the next thing.
Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, I ended up taking a
month long road trip and like did some speaking engagements
and like visited family and it was like this very nice,
like first time I've done the thing.
Speaker 1: I was like, I was gonna take the great American
road job.
Speaker 2: I've never done that, you know, and it was like
this very like it was perfect timing and this right moment.
But it's this it was like I had zero schedule,
like I should I did be at this place in
this date, but how I got there and like what
I did in between, and that was actually one of
the most important things I could have done at the time,
because it was like, let me put that space into
experience this moment now where I don't have to be
anywhere else, I don't have to be thinking about what
I should be doing, and it like changes your your perception,
right because you're like, I'm watching trees and I'm sitting
at this rest stop, and I'm looking at these dogs
running around in this yard, you know, and it's like
it's very you know, spacious, I guess in one way,
and you kind of realize there is that space in
the center. Once you finally kind of stop moving for
a second, you realize how much space is actually around you.
Speaker 1: And it was I guess from all that.
Speaker 2: Came this idea of playfulness, right, like let me I
can play with what I could do, what this could be.
And so I'm kind of curious to thoughts about this too, like,
you know, how did you come to play as one
of these key key pieces of like finding joy and work,
finding joy and experimentation because it is fun, I think,
you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you did mention at the being of
our conversation, how children are naturally curious, and another another
behavior that they have that is very natural to them
is learning through play, exploring through play, being naturally playful
about anything that they do and their approach, and also
connecting and relating to others through play and playfulness. I
know it may sound a little bit antithetic with the
scientific mindset, but it's actually really important because a lot
of scientific discoveries happen through being playful, open minded, looking
at things in a different way, asking questions are non obvious,
so you can really also approach problems and challenges in
your life from this angle of playfulness and just asking yourself,
what if I approached this a little bit more like
a game. What if I stop caring so much about
the outcome? What if this was fun? And very often
when you ask yourself these questions and you just start
playing a little bit more with ideas, with projects, with challenges,
you'll not only discover new ways of approaching these things
you're working on, but it will just be more fun
and enjoyable to you while you're working there.
Speaker 2: I love it, so I think I encourage us all
just get out there and play, right. It's like remembering
that that it turns out we get all serious, but
it's like life can be fun, you know, as creepy
as the Joker was in the dark night, like when
he's asking why so serious that there's something to it? Right,
It's like we can we can have fun with this, right,
I think so Again, thank you so much for chatting
with me too, Like this has been super fun to
kind of think through playful right, to kind of think
through these ideas, And I appreciate the work that you're
putting out. It is important for us as so many
folks are rethinking what they can do for their career
paths and again like retirement, like why wait, these questions
think are really important for us to kind of learn
to let go of legacy and negative perceptions of procrastination
and kind of stop talking about time as this one
linear pathway, but we can actually experiment, you know, around
ideas and around ideas, and so if folks both want
to learn more, I'm excited for them to check out
you book. You know you've got nest Labs. Also to
tell me a bit about nest Labs. So folks want
to get it. Even course, you got community, you get
a whole, you get a whole like great world there too.
So what's what's happening over in the in the lab
space that folks can that folks need to know about.
Speaker 3: Yes, So nest Labs. I write a weekly newsletter that
I send you about one hundred thousand people every week
on Thursday, so that's completely free. You can sign up
and I discuss a lot of the topics that we
talked about today. There's also a private community where we
have online courses and coaching, little workshops, and we also
conduct experiments all together, so you can your little luck
book there and announce your experiment, and then everybody's kind
of like joining in supporting you, providing feedback and supporting accountability.
So yeah, so that's next Labs. And then there's the
book obviously that's coming out very soon, and that's separate.
You can go on tiny experiments dot org and you
can learn more about it.
Speaker 2: We'll definitely a link to it in the show notes. Now,
all that good stuff, so folks can find out your work.
But thank you again so much for putting all this
out there in the world. I think it's it's such
important topics and conversations and timely for where we're at.
So thank you for generating so many good things and
great to talk with you today.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Adam, thank you,