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Chum chumbucasino dot com. 19 00:00:57.439 --> 00:00:59.679 Nover necessary word by long eighty plus terors the conditions 20 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:00.600 of plus secret tales. 21 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:12.079 You are now listening to True Murder the most Shocking 22 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.200 Killers in true crime history and the authors that have 23 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:22.560 written about them, Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, BTK. Every 24 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:26.280 Week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 25 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:30.560 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your 26 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.359 host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 27 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:51.319 Good Evening, Ted Bundy Examining the Unconfirmed Survivors' Stories is 28 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:55.439 the first publication to collate the known and frequently discussed 29 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:59.280 stories of those individuals who share their encounters with Ted 30 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:04.719 Bundy decades after the execution of the serial killer. It 31 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:10.400 compares these reports with data compiled by investigators, psychologists, and 32 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:15.840 contemporaries of Ted Bundy as found in police files, psychological assessments, 33 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:21.360 and relevant literature. Includes thorough investigations into the accounts of 34 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:27.960 Blondie singer Debbie Harry, Ronda Stapley, Sarah a survivor so 35 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:35.360 Trea Chritsonis, as well as numerous other unconfirmed survivors. Features 36 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:37.879 the self debunked story of a woman who had previously 37 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:42.120 believed to be a Ted Bundy survivor delves into the 38 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:47.280 possible motivations of deliberate and indeliberate victim players, as well 39 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:51.680 as doctor Elizabeth Loftus Discoveries of the malleability of human memory. 40 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:56.080 Aaron Banks, who is meant who was mentored by Ted 41 00:02:56.120 --> 00:03:00.719 Bundy expert Kevin M. Sullivan previously controls Bit a chapter 42 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:04.879 to the author's sixth book on the case, The Enigma 43 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:10.120 of Ted Bundy, The Questions and Controversies surrounding America's most 44 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:14.199 infamous serial killer. Welcome to the program, and thank you 45 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:16.560 so much for this interview, Aaron Banks. 46 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:17.639 Thank you. 47 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:23.879 Now, Aaron, for this book Ted Bundy, examining the unconfirmed 48 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:27.879 survivors stories. You state right initially in the book for 49 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:32.080 people that might want to know why this publication. 50 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:37.039 Yes, I do. It was important for me to write 51 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:41.080 this book to do justice to the entire case and 52 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:46.039 especially the actual and confirmed victims, everybody who worked on 53 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:52.360 this case, psychologists and law enforcement, because I think that 54 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:58.919 these new claims by the unconfirmed survivors are important to 55 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:04.719 invest the gate and to really look into to see 56 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:08.719 if they actually hold up under scrutiny, because they're comparing 57 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:13.400 themselves to the actual confirmed victims and that is a 58 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:14.280 heavy subject. 59 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:23.240 Absolutely, you include the confirmed survivors, Karen Sparks Epley, Carol 60 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:29.279 de Ranch, Kathy Kleiner, Karen Chandler Pryor, and Cheryl Thomas. 61 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:34.959 Yes I do, and many many others. Of course, many 62 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:39.560 of the victims who did not survive, But as for 63 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:43.439 the survivors that we know of, those are the names. 64 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:47.720 Of course, we can always count people like Leslie Parmenter 65 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:50.480 who had a run in with Bundy, who certainly would 66 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:54.160 have been a victim, similarly to Kim Leech, who was 67 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:58.319 not as fortunate, and other people who went to the 68 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:02.560 police after Bundy had approached them. For instance, on the 69 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:08.319 night of Susan Rancourt's abduction on April seventeenth, nineteen seventy four, 70 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:12.079 there were at least two other women who came forth 71 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:15.199 and reported to police. There was a young man and 72 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:19.160 he seemed really strange. He was very nervous. He tried 73 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:22.600 to get me to take his books to his car, 74 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:26.480 and who later ran off in fright because he was 75 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:30.000 just acting very oddly. And thanks to them, we know 76 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:34.839 exactly how many women he must have tried this routine, 77 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:39.759 his different ruses with over the years. 78 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:44.079 Now, you say that there was many questions you wanted 79 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:49.519 to explore, and obviously you wanted to investigate these claims 80 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:56.600 to their fullest yes. But also you talked about the mythologializing, 81 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.120 mythologicalizing of Ted Bundy. 82 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:08.800 Well, this is something that I just witnessed in the groups. 83 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:12.680 When I first joined Facebook and got into Ted Bundy, 84 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:16.839 I saw exactly how many people there are still buying 85 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:22.680 into these common myths about the door handle being not 86 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:27.240 in place when he did his abductions, which is not true, 87 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:32.120 as we know from Carol Deran, who's a survivor, and 88 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:37.480 after talking to Volkswagon, it became very evident that this 89 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:41.000 could not be a true claim. Right. Other things were 90 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:45.759 he killed only women with dark hair. This is also 91 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.399 something that is not correct. If you look at the 92 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:52.079 photos of the victims, you can very clearly see that 93 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:55.720 they had all types of different hair colors, hair does, 94 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:59.040 and so forth. So this was just one part, of course. 95 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:03.680 Another part is there is a group of people who 96 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:08.800 are deeply enmeshed with Bundy. In fact, they claim to 97 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:12.519 be in love with him, and I think by highlighting 98 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:15.959 exactly what he did and how brutally he was, how 99 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:21.519 merciless in his approach, we can help these people maybe 100 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:25.160 see a little clearer that there's nothing to actually be 101 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:31.959 enmeshed with there's no romantic Bundy, no misunderstood folk ravel. 102 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:34.879 There's really just the killer. 103 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:40.480 Right now. You examined some stories and I was surprised 104 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:44.920 to have this story included because I had Ronda Stapleon 105 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:48.680 with her book I think in twenty sixteen when it 106 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:52.879 was released. I survived Ted Bundy, the attack, escape and 107 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:57.319 PTSD that changed my life. You say that her publication 108 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:01.000 divides the Bundy community in equal parts to this day, 109 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:04.279 Explain explain that for us? 110 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:08.759 Well, when I still had the online group where we 111 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:14.279 studied Bundy together and whenever Ronda Stapley came up, it 112 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:17.360 was very clear that there were was this camp of 113 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:21.399 people who thought, you can never ever question somebody who 114 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:25.199 claims that they were attacked and also raped and almost 115 00:08:25.319 --> 00:08:28.480 escaped the killer. And those who said, but wait a minute, 116 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:31.639 we still have a couple of questions. If psychologists and 117 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:36.919 law enforcement ask questions, then why can't we, I mean, 118 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:42.240 should we not hold ourselves to the same standard and say, well, 119 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:45.759 we're not saying you weren't attacked, be it by Bundy 120 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:49.799 or somebody else, but there are certain parts, their components 121 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:52.240 in your story that just cannot have happened that way. 122 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:55.159 Can we just take a look at this together. So 123 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:57.960 those two camps are still at war with each other 124 00:08:58.039 --> 00:08:59.279 in the Bundy community. 125 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:05.799 Unfortunately, what was it about you? You mentioned things about 126 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:11.360 the door handle in some of these would be survivors' stories. 127 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:17.519 Tell us what you had issue with Ronda's story completely? 128 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:23.399 Well, that is actually my longest chapter. And I read 129 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:26.799 her book about four or five times, also together with 130 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:30.720 friends of mine, just to see if maybe they came 131 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:35.080 up with different results, you know, to their research. Could 132 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:40.000 this have happened? Could this not have happened? And the 133 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:43.840 door handle certainly is one of the things that do 134 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:48.080 not make sense, especially like I said, because I contacted Volkswagen, 135 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:52.240 and because you cannot remove just the outer part or 136 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:55.279 the inner part of the door handle and think that 137 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:58.360 it will still be operable and still stick. That does 138 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:01.080 not make sense. It just doesn't work. And I've tried 139 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:06.000 this at home myself. Another thing was her claim that 140 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:13.279 she had broken two of her ribs. That I absolutely 141 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:17.720 believe she suffered a horrendous attack. But the problem with 142 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:21.279 that is that my mother broke her ribs just last year, 143 00:10:21.879 --> 00:10:25.720 and even without that, I know that you cannot move 144 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:29.440 when you break your ribs. You can hardly even breathe. 145 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:35.080 So for her to say that she walked home after 146 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:38.639 her struggle in the river, where she also says she 147 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:43.240 was unconscious for several minutes, it's just a little strange. 148 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:47.320 She says that she continued to go to classes and 149 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:51.120 move about quite normally. In fact, she even went on 150 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:55.240 to jog late at night because that was her way 151 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:58.360 of dealing with the trauma that she had suffered from 152 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:03.399 the attack. That she she stayed she went through. This 153 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:07.320 is just one of the many things that don't really 154 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:10.919 work out. I don't know if there's just a timeline error. 155 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:16.879 Maybe she felt like this happened just a couple of 156 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:20.879 days after or that she went to classes the day 157 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:24.159 after the attack happened, and in truth it was several weeks. 158 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:28.399 I mean, trauma works in mysterious ways. I cannot say that. 159 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.159 All I can say is the way she wrote it 160 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:35.000 in her book just doesn't make sense. Because I talked 161 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:40.000 to different psychologists, to hospitals, to doctors, and they all 162 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:42.720 told me the same thing. If you break your ribs, 163 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:46.080 you cannot breathe, you cannot move, you cannot go for 164 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:47.919 jobs late at night. 165 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:53.840 What's interesting about Ronda's book is that it seems to 166 00:11:53.960 --> 00:12:00.799 have an endorsement to some level of credibility Anne Rule, 167 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:05.799 which seems for all intensive purposes, she was the resident 168 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:11.200 expert before Kevin Sullivan came around, people taking her word 169 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:17.240 as gospel. So what is it about what Anne Rule 170 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:20.840 had said about her credibility? What? How do you well? 171 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:25.879 I mean? And Rule certainly was an authority when it 172 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.120 came to anything Bundy, certainly, but she was also just 173 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:32.960 another person. So just because she says, well, I find 174 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.679 this person credible and this other person didn't make it 175 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.200 into my book because she mentions a couple of survivors 176 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.039 stories that you know, when women contacted her to talk 177 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.960 about it, that she thought were realistic. I don't know 178 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:53.000 what standards she had or what methods she applied to 179 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:56.799 verify these stories, whether it was just you know, the 180 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:01.360 tone of voice, or whether she actually looked into the timelines, 181 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:04.840 the dates, the years, and all the things that I did. 182 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:07.720 I looked at weather, at charts, I looked at the 183 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:10.519 speed limit in New York City when looking into Debbie 184 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:14.159 Harry's story. So I did a lot to actually try 185 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:17.559 to find out could this have happened? I'm not saying 186 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:20.320 that anvul didn't, but maybe she just came to different 187 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:21.759 conclusions than I did. 188 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:28.720 Let's move on to another person that claims to have 189 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:35.120 encountered Ted Bundy, so Tria chritsnis Yeah. In early twenty eighteen, 190 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:42.240 Heiro Channel seven Washington State News Agency conducted an interview 191 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:45.759 with so Tria. What was it about what she had 192 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:49.000 to say? Tell us what she said and what problems 193 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:50.279 you had with her account? 194 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:56.000 Well, she also repeated some of the claims that Rondas 195 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.759 Stapley had. The stories in fact seemed somewhat similar, and 196 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:04.039 that could be indicative of hey, maybe they're telling the truth, 197 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:07.240 but it could also mean well, maybe Siritria Critsonas was 198 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:11.080 influenced by Stapley's story and sort of built her a 199 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:14.240 narrative around that. I don't know which is true. I'm again, 200 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:17.120 I'm never saying that this didn't happen. I'm just pointing 201 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:20.399 out the things that could not be true. I mean, 202 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.960 I'm asking you and everybody who listens to this, how 203 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:30.000 likely is it that an experienced killer gets somebody in 204 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.960 his car then decides, oh, well, I don't like her haircut, 205 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:38.600 So I'm just gonna let her out in front of 206 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:44.639 the university building on campus where hundreds of people are 207 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:47.519 watching on He shoves her out of the car onto 208 00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:51.320 the hard ground, giving everybody time to look at him. 209 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:55.799 The car, the plates right. I just don't see it. 210 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.720 I just don't see that personally. Plus the problem was 211 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:02.960 with the university that it very likely was closed on 212 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:05.879 that day because it was a bad snow day, and 213 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:09.559 a friend of mine back then looked up snow days 214 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:15.360 during that time and especially in January and February, and 215 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:19.039 basically half the city is closed at that point, even 216 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:22.799 the universities. The buses do not run. So that's another 217 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:26.159 factor that made me go, naw, I don't know if 218 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:28.279 she's maybe confusing something there. 219 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:33.519 What about the idea do you discuss as well? The 220 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.840 idea that they didn't report these incidents to police or authorities. 221 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:41.840 Ronda didn't and so Tria didn't as well. 222 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:46.000 Yes, many of them did not. And I find that 223 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:50.000 very bothersome because, as I mentioned in my book, I'm 224 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.080 also a survivor, and the first thing I thought was, 225 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:56.639 I do not want this to happen to another living person. 226 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:00.039 So the fact that they didn't go to police, p 227 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:04.919 I understand that, especially in the seventies, it was a 228 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:07.519 different time. There was a lot of shame involved. People 229 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:11.000 were also partly more religious, as in Ronda Stapley's case 230 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:16.080 sheep in race in Utah after all, but still, I mean, 231 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:20.039 can you really live with yourself knowing that this person 232 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:23.399 is out there, there's a rapist and possibly a killer 233 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:27.440 because he abducted you, so it's likely that he will 234 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:31.000 let you live after this encounter. Can you really live 235 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:33.200 with yourself doing this? This is kind of what I 236 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:36.240 have the problem with. Another thing is that this is 237 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:40.159 just a little too convenient for me because all of 238 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.320 the evidence that they stated that they had on their 239 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:47.360 bodies and about this encounter is of course gone forever. 240 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:52.399 Ronda Stapley disposed of her clothes in a dumpster. Citria 241 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:56.480 Critzonis didn't talk to any of her classmates about this. 242 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.320 Somebody surely must have witnessed that and said, hey, you know, 243 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:03.000 I'll a come to the police, let's get this guy. 244 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.039 Nobody did that. I just think it's odd. 245 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:13.960 Right now you talk about another would be survivor, Mitzi 246 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:19.160 Beader Herb's story and that she was presidently samam Ashes 247 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:24.039 on July fourteenth, nineteen seventy four. Yeah, what did she 248 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.279 have to say? And what were you as you write, 249 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:31.559 what were you sort of offended by one of her statements? 250 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:35.400 Well, I mean, I'm not su sure I was offended, 251 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:38.599 but I just thought that in her case, it was 252 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:42.480 very obvious she didn't have a story to tell right 253 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:45.839 off the bat. When the interviewer, Mason Weaver I think 254 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:51.200 his name was, asked her about the encounter, her eyes 255 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:54.240 went blank. She sort of panicked, and then went on 256 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:57.960 to describe everything that happened that day, what she was wearing, 257 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:00.599 what they were doing at the lake, what it was 258 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.119 usually like at the lake, that she wanted to sell 259 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.559 a horse, and that she wasn't feeling too well that day, 260 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.680 but nothing really about Bundy. And when she finally got 261 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:14.680 back to Bunny, she couldn't actually remember the encounter and 262 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.599 then seemed to this is my personal opinion, it seemed 263 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:23.079 to draw from Bundy lore bundy mythology saying while his 264 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.160 eyes changed color, they got really dark and he got 265 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.920 really mean. That struck me a little bit as odd, 266 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:34.240 because this certainly was a traumatic encounter for twelve year 267 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:38.440 old girl to have. If a grown man approaches you 268 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.680 and tries to get you to go someplace with him, 269 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:48.200 and then acts very aggressively towards you. I think that 270 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:53.400 in her case, it became very clear that she was 271 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:58.599 all about the ultimate message. Her message was be aware 272 00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:03.519 of your surroundings, right, always have somebody with you, have 273 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:08.240 somebody know where you are, be careful out there, especially 274 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:10.759 as a girl, as a little girl, and as a woman. 275 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.279 And she also drove that home as well as the 276 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:17.319 interviewer did at the end of the interview. And I 277 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:19.799 still felt like, but she didn't actually tell us anything 278 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:24.839 about Bundy, right, It was really just the message that 279 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.359 she had, which is a good one, really it is. 280 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:30.960 And I think it's important to teach both girls and 281 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.920 also little boys that because boys are also getting victimized. 282 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.279 But I just think that it wouldn't have needed a 283 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:42.599 creation or a possible creation of yet another Bundy story 284 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:44.440 to drive that point home. 285 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:52.680 Absolutely. You cite another person, Victoria lh those initials. Yeah, 286 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.039 and you call it more of a leaflet than a book, 287 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:59.440 conquering the Haunting Memories of Ted Bundy, the thirty pages 288 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.880 of her encounter and how it influenced her life. What 289 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.119 did you have to say about this in terms of 290 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:09.519 the plausibility. 291 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:16.240 Well, with Victoria, it became evident that she talked or 292 00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:20.559 wrote like a person who may have a unique perspective 293 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:25.000 of reality. Again, I'm not trying to ever diagnose somebody, 294 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:30.440 but from my personal experiences and reading, she seemed rather 295 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:34.359 delusional in her thinking and very disorganized in her speech 296 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:40.640 at times. For instance, she claimed things about Bundy that 297 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:47.240 were simply just odd, like he was driving by when 298 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:50.680 she was out walking, and then he was driving back 299 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:54.599 and forth with his genitals waving out of the window. 300 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:59.200 I mean, first of all, that's some impressive contortionism right there, right. 301 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.200 But also she later stated that when she gave her 302 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:07.240 statement to police, they had organized a class field trip 303 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:10.440 so she could give a statement because they had agreed 304 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:13.119 they wouldn't tell her parents about it, but she still 305 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:17.119 needed to obviously come down and make a report. I mean, 306 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:19.279 first of all, the police just doesn't work like that, 307 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:24.119 not even in the seventies they didn't. And then the 308 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:28.400 forensic psychologist that allegedly was at the station acted as 309 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:32.680 a Hollywood agent, asking her if it could note down 310 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:35.880 her name real quick in case they ever made movies 311 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.400 about Ted Bunny the serial killer, which in the seventies 312 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:43.440 early seventies. He was not He wasn't known as anything 313 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:49.000 back then. And ten years later, she had moved to 314 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:53.519 a different city and suddenly, while she was out about 315 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.599 walking yet again, a police officer stops her saying, hey, 316 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:00.279 aren't you the girl that had that run in with 317 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.200 Ted Bundy. She was in a different city. This was 318 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:08.119 a completely different police officer than any of the ones 319 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.680 that she had seen or met at the station ten 320 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:17.400 years ago. That police officer also only stopped her to 321 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:21.160 offer her a chance to appear in a movie right 322 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:27.880 that they were making about Ted Bundy. There's yeah, there's 323 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.640 a lot wrong with that. And she later went on 324 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:36.319 to admit in her leaflet or book that she had 325 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:41.000 had surgery and it left her chemically unbalanced and with 326 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:46.920 some problems with memory. She couldn't remember the incident with 327 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:51.599 Bundy for decades after just suddenly from one day to 328 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:57.000 the next. That's not really how trauma or amnesia works 329 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:03.160 for once, but her admission that there was something going 330 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:06.960 on with her memory, with her brain, with amnesia, that 331 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:12.000 she had had surgery pointed to her maybe having more 332 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:18.720 of a psychological issue with you know, how she views reality. 333 00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:24.440 Yes, and she claimed that she just demanded to be 334 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:27.279 let go by Ted Bundy, and so she was. 335 00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:31.880 That was so horrible. I mean, I'm really trying to 336 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:35.079 be especially fair and sort of a little more gentle 337 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:41.319 with the people who may suffer from delusional beliefs. But 338 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:45.480 I think that's a terrible thing to say, because I 339 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.319 think we all know if you are in a serial 340 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:51.440 killer's car, if a serial killer has you and you 341 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:54.039 just a man let me go, you will let me go. 342 00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:57.319 That's not going to happen. So to insinuate, well, the 343 00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:01.799 others were basically just too stupid or not daring enough 344 00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:05.200 to free themselves and not die. They should have just 345 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:08.039 told him they would leave right now is just awful. 346 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:16.000 Yes. Absolutely, Let's talk about a famous person's claim. Oh yeah, 347 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:20.599 I've encounter with Ted Bundy. And that's Debbie Harry from Blondie, 348 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:23.640 the singer from Blondie, right, And she says that this 349 00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:27.240 was in the early seventies, And you talk about her 350 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.400 initial statement and then the new interview in twenty twenty. 351 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:33.640 Tell us what she had to say about her encounter 352 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:36.000 with Ted Bundy and where this was. 353 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:40.359 Well, back then she was in New York City, she 354 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:43.799 lived in the Village neighborhood back then, and she wanted 355 00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:47.359 to go to an after hours club, so obviously it 356 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:52.559 was at night. She also says that when a small 357 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:55.440 white car pulled up next to her and the driver 358 00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:00.799 first offered and then insisted she get into his car, 359 00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:04.599 that it was extremely hot and stuffy in the car, 360 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:09.279 and that he was had a terrible odor. I mean, 361 00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:14.799 first of all, if it was so hot in the car, 362 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:18.720 how exactly did that happen? Because it was late at 363 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:22.119 night in New York City. I looked up how hot 364 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:25.759 it was back in the seventy seventy one, seventy two, 365 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:29.599 seventy three. Because she didn't really give an exact year 366 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:32.440 at first, and also not an exact month later when 367 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:37.160 she said it was nineteen seventy sharp, the average temperature 368 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:41.119 in the summers was about seventy five degrees, so at night, 369 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:43.920 you can imagine it was not that hot. It was 370 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:47.000 already cooler. Why was it that hot in the car. 371 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.880 Of course, she needed that element in her story, is 372 00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:58.640 my personal opinion, because she needed to credibly state or 373 00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:04.319 sell that she reached through the open window, which was 374 00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:07.480 really just I think she says eight inches or ten 375 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:14.880 inches wide open, and then freed herself by reaching towards 376 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:19.799 the door handle and being catapulted from the car. So 377 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:22.400 all of this kind of goes hand in hand. It 378 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:24.880 had to be hot, the window had to be opened 379 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:29.240 just a little bit so she could reach through the window. 380 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.720 And I actually tested this out and it doesn't work 381 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:36.519 the way that she says. I had a friend who 382 00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:41.319 has an original nineteen sixty eight a Volkswagen Beetle test 383 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.119 this out for me and almost damage her car in 384 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:47.799 the process. I damaged my mother's car in the process, 385 00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:52.400 and actually cracked the window because I reached through the hole, 386 00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:57.160 tried to reach the door handle, couldn't. My weight shifted, 387 00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:01.400 my head bumped into the ceiling of the car, the 388 00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:07.279 roof of the car, and well the window cracks and 389 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:12.160 I almost got thrown under the wheels. Basically, so none 390 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.880 of this can really have happened the way that she says. 391 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:19.440 But that's also that's really just one element of the 392 00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:22.519 various other things that sounded a little odd. 393 00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:23.640 M hm. 394 00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:28.039 Let's use this as an opportunity, Aaron to stop for 395 00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:32.839 a second for our sponsor, which is best Fiends. Regular 396 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.920 listeners will know that I'm obsessed with playing Best Fiends. 397 00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:40.039 I think it's the best match three style game. The 398 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:43.279 others are essentially the same game with different color schemes. 399 00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:46.839 So try this puzzle game and stop crushing the same 400 00:27:46.839 --> 00:27:51.920 old candy. With Beth's Fiends, there was an exciting storyline 401 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:55.640