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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder the most Shocking
Speaker 3: Killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them, Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, BTK. Every
Speaker 3: Week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your
Speaker 3: host journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 4: Good Evening, Ted Bundy Examining the Unconfirmed Survivors' Stories is
Speaker 4: the first publication to collate the known and frequently discussed
Speaker 4: stories of those individuals who share their encounters with Ted
Speaker 4: Bundy decades after the execution of the serial killer. It
Speaker 4: compares these reports with data compiled by investigators, psychologists, and
Speaker 4: contemporaries of Ted Bundy as found in police files, psychological assessments,
Speaker 4: and relevant literature. Includes thorough investigations into the accounts of
Speaker 4: Blondie singer Debbie Harry, Ronda Stapley, Sarah a survivor so
Speaker 4: Trea Chritsonis, as well as numerous other unconfirmed survivors. Features
Speaker 4: the self debunked story of a woman who had previously
Speaker 4: believed to be a Ted Bundy survivor delves into the
Speaker 4: possible motivations of deliberate and indeliberate victim players, as well
Speaker 4: as doctor Elizabeth Loftus Discoveries of the malleability of human memory.
Speaker 4: Aaron Banks, who is meant who was mentored by Ted
Speaker 4: Bundy expert Kevin M. Sullivan previously controls Bit a chapter
Speaker 4: to the author's sixth book on the case, The Enigma
Speaker 4: of Ted Bundy, The Questions and Controversies surrounding America's most
Speaker 4: infamous serial killer. Welcome to the program, and thank you
Speaker 4: so much for this interview, Aaron Banks.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Now, Aaron, for this book Ted Bundy, examining the unconfirmed
Speaker 4: survivors stories. You state right initially in the book for
Speaker 4: people that might want to know why this publication.
Speaker 2: Yes, I do. It was important for me to write
Speaker 2: this book to do justice to the entire case and
Speaker 2: especially the actual and confirmed victims, everybody who worked on
Speaker 2: this case, psychologists and law enforcement, because I think that
Speaker 2: these new claims by the unconfirmed survivors are important to
Speaker 2: invest the gate and to really look into to see
Speaker 2: if they actually hold up under scrutiny, because they're comparing
Speaker 2: themselves to the actual confirmed victims and that is a
Speaker 2: heavy subject.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, you include the confirmed survivors, Karen Sparks Epley, Carol
Speaker 4: de Ranch, Kathy Kleiner, Karen Chandler Pryor, and Cheryl Thomas.
Speaker 2: Yes I do, and many many others. Of course, many
Speaker 2: of the victims who did not survive, But as for
Speaker 2: the survivors that we know of, those are the names.
Speaker 2: Of course, we can always count people like Leslie Parmenter
Speaker 2: who had a run in with Bundy, who certainly would
Speaker 2: have been a victim, similarly to Kim Leech, who was
Speaker 2: not as fortunate, and other people who went to the
Speaker 2: police after Bundy had approached them. For instance, on the
Speaker 2: night of Susan Rancourt's abduction on April seventeenth, nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 2: there were at least two other women who came forth
Speaker 2: and reported to police. There was a young man and
Speaker 2: he seemed really strange. He was very nervous. He tried
Speaker 2: to get me to take his books to his car,
Speaker 2: and who later ran off in fright because he was
Speaker 2: just acting very oddly. And thanks to them, we know
Speaker 2: exactly how many women he must have tried this routine,
Speaker 2: his different ruses with over the years.
Speaker 4: Now, you say that there was many questions you wanted
Speaker 4: to explore, and obviously you wanted to investigate these claims
Speaker 4: to their fullest yes. But also you talked about the mythologializing,
Speaker 4: mythologicalizing of Ted Bundy.
Speaker 2: Well, this is something that I just witnessed in the groups.
Speaker 2: When I first joined Facebook and got into Ted Bundy,
Speaker 2: I saw exactly how many people there are still buying
Speaker 2: into these common myths about the door handle being not
Speaker 2: in place when he did his abductions, which is not true,
Speaker 2: as we know from Carol Deran, who's a survivor, and
Speaker 2: after talking to Volkswagon, it became very evident that this
Speaker 2: could not be a true claim. Right. Other things were
Speaker 2: he killed only women with dark hair. This is also
Speaker 2: something that is not correct. If you look at the
Speaker 2: photos of the victims, you can very clearly see that
Speaker 2: they had all types of different hair colors, hair does,
Speaker 2: and so forth. So this was just one part, of course.
Speaker 2: Another part is there is a group of people who
Speaker 2: are deeply enmeshed with Bundy. In fact, they claim to
Speaker 2: be in love with him, and I think by highlighting
Speaker 2: exactly what he did and how brutally he was, how
Speaker 2: merciless in his approach, we can help these people maybe
Speaker 2: see a little clearer that there's nothing to actually be
Speaker 2: enmeshed with there's no romantic Bundy, no misunderstood folk ravel.
Speaker 2: There's really just the killer.
Speaker 4: Right now. You examined some stories and I was surprised
Speaker 4: to have this story included because I had Ronda Stapleon
Speaker 4: with her book I think in twenty sixteen when it
Speaker 4: was released. I survived Ted Bundy, the attack, escape and
Speaker 4: PTSD that changed my life. You say that her publication
Speaker 4: divides the Bundy community in equal parts to this day,
Speaker 4: Explain explain that for us?
Speaker 2: Well, when I still had the online group where we
Speaker 2: studied Bundy together and whenever Ronda Stapley came up, it
Speaker 2: was very clear that there were was this camp of
Speaker 2: people who thought, you can never ever question somebody who
Speaker 2: claims that they were attacked and also raped and almost
Speaker 2: escaped the killer. And those who said, but wait a minute,
Speaker 2: we still have a couple of questions. If psychologists and
Speaker 2: law enforcement ask questions, then why can't we, I mean,
Speaker 2: should we not hold ourselves to the same standard and say, well,
Speaker 2: we're not saying you weren't attacked, be it by Bundy
Speaker 2: or somebody else, but there are certain parts, their components
Speaker 2: in your story that just cannot have happened that way.
Speaker 2: Can we just take a look at this together. So
Speaker 2: those two camps are still at war with each other
Speaker 2: in the Bundy community.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, what was it about you? You mentioned things about
Speaker 4: the door handle in some of these would be survivors' stories.
Speaker 4: Tell us what you had issue with Ronda's story completely?
Speaker 2: Well, that is actually my longest chapter. And I read
Speaker 2: her book about four or five times, also together with
Speaker 2: friends of mine, just to see if maybe they came
Speaker 2: up with different results, you know, to their research. Could
Speaker 2: this have happened? Could this not have happened? And the
Speaker 2: door handle certainly is one of the things that do
Speaker 2: not make sense, especially like I said, because I contacted Volkswagen,
Speaker 2: and because you cannot remove just the outer part or
Speaker 2: the inner part of the door handle and think that
Speaker 2: it will still be operable and still stick. That does
Speaker 2: not make sense. It just doesn't work. And I've tried
Speaker 2: this at home myself. Another thing was her claim that
Speaker 2: she had broken two of her ribs. That I absolutely
Speaker 2: believe she suffered a horrendous attack. But the problem with
Speaker 2: that is that my mother broke her ribs just last year,
Speaker 2: and even without that, I know that you cannot move
Speaker 2: when you break your ribs. You can hardly even breathe.
Speaker 2: So for her to say that she walked home after
Speaker 2: her struggle in the river, where she also says she
Speaker 2: was unconscious for several minutes, it's just a little strange.
Speaker 2: She says that she continued to go to classes and
Speaker 2: move about quite normally. In fact, she even went on
Speaker 2: to jog late at night because that was her way
Speaker 2: of dealing with the trauma that she had suffered from
Speaker 2: the attack. That she she stayed she went through. This
Speaker 2: is just one of the many things that don't really
Speaker 2: work out. I don't know if there's just a timeline error.
Speaker 2: Maybe she felt like this happened just a couple of
Speaker 2: days after or that she went to classes the day
Speaker 2: after the attack happened, and in truth it was several weeks.
Speaker 2: I mean, trauma works in mysterious ways. I cannot say that.
Speaker 2: All I can say is the way she wrote it
Speaker 2: in her book just doesn't make sense. Because I talked
Speaker 2: to different psychologists, to hospitals, to doctors, and they all
Speaker 2: told me the same thing. If you break your ribs,
Speaker 2: you cannot breathe, you cannot move, you cannot go for
Speaker 2: jobs late at night.
Speaker 4: What's interesting about Ronda's book is that it seems to
Speaker 4: have an endorsement to some level of credibility Anne Rule,
Speaker 4: which seems for all intensive purposes, she was the resident
Speaker 4: expert before Kevin Sullivan came around, people taking her word
Speaker 4: as gospel. So what is it about what Anne Rule
Speaker 4: had said about her credibility? What? How do you well?
Speaker 2: I mean? And Rule certainly was an authority when it
Speaker 2: came to anything Bundy, certainly, but she was also just
Speaker 2: another person. So just because she says, well, I find
Speaker 2: this person credible and this other person didn't make it
Speaker 2: into my book because she mentions a couple of survivors
Speaker 2: stories that you know, when women contacted her to talk
Speaker 2: about it, that she thought were realistic. I don't know
Speaker 2: what standards she had or what methods she applied to
Speaker 2: verify these stories, whether it was just you know, the
Speaker 2: tone of voice, or whether she actually looked into the timelines,
Speaker 2: the dates, the years, and all the things that I did.
Speaker 2: I looked at weather, at charts, I looked at the
Speaker 2: speed limit in New York City when looking into Debbie
Speaker 2: Harry's story. So I did a lot to actually try
Speaker 2: to find out could this have happened? I'm not saying
Speaker 2: that anvul didn't, but maybe she just came to different
Speaker 2: conclusions than I did.
Speaker 4: Let's move on to another person that claims to have
Speaker 4: encountered Ted Bundy, so Tria chritsnis Yeah. In early twenty eighteen,
Speaker 4: Heiro Channel seven Washington State News Agency conducted an interview
Speaker 4: with so Tria. What was it about what she had
Speaker 4: to say? Tell us what she said and what problems
Speaker 4: you had with her account?
Speaker 2: Well, she also repeated some of the claims that Rondas
Speaker 2: Stapley had. The stories in fact seemed somewhat similar, and
Speaker 2: that could be indicative of hey, maybe they're telling the truth,
Speaker 2: but it could also mean well, maybe Siritria Critsonas was
Speaker 2: influenced by Stapley's story and sort of built her a
Speaker 2: narrative around that. I don't know which is true. I'm again,
Speaker 2: I'm never saying that this didn't happen. I'm just pointing
Speaker 2: out the things that could not be true. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm asking you and everybody who listens to this, how
Speaker 2: likely is it that an experienced killer gets somebody in
Speaker 2: his car then decides, oh, well, I don't like her haircut,
Speaker 2: So I'm just gonna let her out in front of
Speaker 2: the university building on campus where hundreds of people are
Speaker 2: watching on He shoves her out of the car onto
Speaker 2: the hard ground, giving everybody time to look at him.
Speaker 2: The car, the plates right. I just don't see it.
Speaker 2: I just don't see that personally. Plus the problem was
Speaker 2: with the university that it very likely was closed on
Speaker 2: that day because it was a bad snow day, and
Speaker 2: a friend of mine back then looked up snow days
Speaker 2: during that time and especially in January and February, and
Speaker 2: basically half the city is closed at that point, even
Speaker 2: the universities. The buses do not run. So that's another
Speaker 2: factor that made me go, naw, I don't know if
Speaker 2: she's maybe confusing something there.
Speaker 4: What about the idea do you discuss as well? The
Speaker 4: idea that they didn't report these incidents to police or authorities.
Speaker 4: Ronda didn't and so Tria didn't as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, many of them did not. And I find that
Speaker 2: very bothersome because, as I mentioned in my book, I'm
Speaker 2: also a survivor, and the first thing I thought was,
Speaker 2: I do not want this to happen to another living person.
Speaker 2: So the fact that they didn't go to police, p
Speaker 2: I understand that, especially in the seventies, it was a
Speaker 2: different time. There was a lot of shame involved. People
Speaker 2: were also partly more religious, as in Ronda Stapley's case
Speaker 2: sheep in race in Utah after all, but still, I mean,
Speaker 2: can you really live with yourself knowing that this person
Speaker 2: is out there, there's a rapist and possibly a killer
Speaker 2: because he abducted you, so it's likely that he will
Speaker 2: let you live after this encounter. Can you really live
Speaker 2: with yourself doing this? This is kind of what I
Speaker 2: have the problem with. Another thing is that this is
Speaker 2: just a little too convenient for me because all of
Speaker 2: the evidence that they stated that they had on their
Speaker 2: bodies and about this encounter is of course gone forever.
Speaker 2: Ronda Stapley disposed of her clothes in a dumpster. Citria
Speaker 2: Critzonis didn't talk to any of her classmates about this.
Speaker 2: Somebody surely must have witnessed that and said, hey, you know,
Speaker 2: I'll a come to the police, let's get this guy.
Speaker 2: Nobody did that. I just think it's odd.
Speaker 4: Right now you talk about another would be survivor, Mitzi
Speaker 4: Beader Herb's story and that she was presidently samam Ashes
Speaker 4: on July fourteenth, nineteen seventy four. Yeah, what did she
Speaker 4: have to say? And what were you as you write,
Speaker 4: what were you sort of offended by one of her statements?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'm not su sure I was offended,
Speaker 2: but I just thought that in her case, it was
Speaker 2: very obvious she didn't have a story to tell right
Speaker 2: off the bat. When the interviewer, Mason Weaver I think
Speaker 2: his name was, asked her about the encounter, her eyes
Speaker 2: went blank. She sort of panicked, and then went on
Speaker 2: to describe everything that happened that day, what she was wearing,
Speaker 2: what they were doing at the lake, what it was
Speaker 2: usually like at the lake, that she wanted to sell
Speaker 2: a horse, and that she wasn't feeling too well that day,
Speaker 2: but nothing really about Bundy. And when she finally got
Speaker 2: back to Bunny, she couldn't actually remember the encounter and
Speaker 2: then seemed to this is my personal opinion, it seemed
Speaker 2: to draw from Bundy lore bundy mythology saying while his
Speaker 2: eyes changed color, they got really dark and he got
Speaker 2: really mean. That struck me a little bit as odd,
Speaker 2: because this certainly was a traumatic encounter for twelve year
Speaker 2: old girl to have. If a grown man approaches you
Speaker 2: and tries to get you to go someplace with him,
Speaker 2: and then acts very aggressively towards you. I think that
Speaker 2: in her case, it became very clear that she was
Speaker 2: all about the ultimate message. Her message was be aware
Speaker 2: of your surroundings, right, always have somebody with you, have
Speaker 2: somebody know where you are, be careful out there, especially
Speaker 2: as a girl, as a little girl, and as a woman.
Speaker 2: And she also drove that home as well as the
Speaker 2: interviewer did at the end of the interview. And I
Speaker 2: still felt like, but she didn't actually tell us anything
Speaker 2: about Bundy, right, It was really just the message that
Speaker 2: she had, which is a good one, really it is.
Speaker 2: And I think it's important to teach both girls and
Speaker 2: also little boys that because boys are also getting victimized.
Speaker 2: But I just think that it wouldn't have needed a
Speaker 2: creation or a possible creation of yet another Bundy story
Speaker 2: to drive that point home.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. You cite another person, Victoria lh those initials. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and you call it more of a leaflet than a book,
Speaker 4: conquering the Haunting Memories of Ted Bundy, the thirty pages
Speaker 4: of her encounter and how it influenced her life. What
Speaker 4: did you have to say about this in terms of
Speaker 4: the plausibility.
Speaker 2: Well, with Victoria, it became evident that she talked or
Speaker 2: wrote like a person who may have a unique perspective
Speaker 2: of reality. Again, I'm not trying to ever diagnose somebody,
Speaker 2: but from my personal experiences and reading, she seemed rather
Speaker 2: delusional in her thinking and very disorganized in her speech
Speaker 2: at times. For instance, she claimed things about Bundy that
Speaker 2: were simply just odd, like he was driving by when
Speaker 2: she was out walking, and then he was driving back
Speaker 2: and forth with his genitals waving out of the window.
Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, that's some impressive contortionism right there, right.
Speaker 2: But also she later stated that when she gave her
Speaker 2: statement to police, they had organized a class field trip
Speaker 2: so she could give a statement because they had agreed
Speaker 2: they wouldn't tell her parents about it, but she still
Speaker 2: needed to obviously come down and make a report. I mean,
Speaker 2: first of all, the police just doesn't work like that,
Speaker 2: not even in the seventies they didn't. And then the
Speaker 2: forensic psychologist that allegedly was at the station acted as
Speaker 2: a Hollywood agent, asking her if it could note down
Speaker 2: her name real quick in case they ever made movies
Speaker 2: about Ted Bunny the serial killer, which in the seventies
Speaker 2: early seventies. He was not He wasn't known as anything
Speaker 2: back then. And ten years later, she had moved to
Speaker 2: a different city and suddenly, while she was out about
Speaker 2: walking yet again, a police officer stops her saying, hey,
Speaker 2: aren't you the girl that had that run in with
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy. She was in a different city. This was
Speaker 2: a completely different police officer than any of the ones
Speaker 2: that she had seen or met at the station ten
Speaker 2: years ago. That police officer also only stopped her to
Speaker 2: offer her a chance to appear in a movie right
Speaker 2: that they were making about Ted Bundy. There's yeah, there's
Speaker 2: a lot wrong with that. And she later went on
Speaker 2: to admit in her leaflet or book that she had
Speaker 2: had surgery and it left her chemically unbalanced and with
Speaker 2: some problems with memory. She couldn't remember the incident with
Speaker 2: Bundy for decades after just suddenly from one day to
Speaker 2: the next. That's not really how trauma or amnesia works
Speaker 2: for once, but her admission that there was something going
Speaker 2: on with her memory, with her brain, with amnesia, that
Speaker 2: she had had surgery pointed to her maybe having more
Speaker 2: of a psychological issue with you know, how she views reality.
Speaker 4: Yes, and she claimed that she just demanded to be
Speaker 4: let go by Ted Bundy, and so she was.
Speaker 2: That was so horrible. I mean, I'm really trying to
Speaker 2: be especially fair and sort of a little more gentle
Speaker 2: with the people who may suffer from delusional beliefs. But
Speaker 2: I think that's a terrible thing to say, because I
Speaker 2: think we all know if you are in a serial
Speaker 2: killer's car, if a serial killer has you and you
Speaker 2: just a man let me go, you will let me go.
Speaker 2: That's not going to happen. So to insinuate, well, the
Speaker 2: others were basically just too stupid or not daring enough
Speaker 2: to free themselves and not die. They should have just
Speaker 2: told him they would leave right now is just awful.
Speaker 4: Yes. Absolutely, Let's talk about a famous person's claim. Oh yeah,
Speaker 4: I've encounter with Ted Bundy. And that's Debbie Harry from Blondie,
Speaker 4: the singer from Blondie, right, And she says that this
Speaker 4: was in the early seventies, And you talk about her
Speaker 4: initial statement and then the new interview in twenty twenty.
Speaker 4: Tell us what she had to say about her encounter
Speaker 4: with Ted Bundy and where this was.
Speaker 2: Well, back then she was in New York City, she
Speaker 2: lived in the Village neighborhood back then, and she wanted
Speaker 2: to go to an after hours club, so obviously it
Speaker 2: was at night. She also says that when a small
Speaker 2: white car pulled up next to her and the driver
Speaker 2: first offered and then insisted she get into his car,
Speaker 2: that it was extremely hot and stuffy in the car,
Speaker 2: and that he was had a terrible odor. I mean,
Speaker 2: first of all, if it was so hot in the car,
Speaker 2: how exactly did that happen? Because it was late at
Speaker 2: night in New York City. I looked up how hot
Speaker 2: it was back in the seventy seventy one, seventy two,
Speaker 2: seventy three. Because she didn't really give an exact year
Speaker 2: at first, and also not an exact month later when
Speaker 2: she said it was nineteen seventy sharp, the average temperature
Speaker 2: in the summers was about seventy five degrees, so at night,
Speaker 2: you can imagine it was not that hot. It was
Speaker 2: already cooler. Why was it that hot in the car.
Speaker 2: Of course, she needed that element in her story, is
Speaker 2: my personal opinion, because she needed to credibly state or
Speaker 2: sell that she reached through the open window, which was
Speaker 2: really just I think she says eight inches or ten
Speaker 2: inches wide open, and then freed herself by reaching towards
Speaker 2: the door handle and being catapulted from the car. So
Speaker 2: all of this kind of goes hand in hand. It
Speaker 2: had to be hot, the window had to be opened
Speaker 2: just a little bit so she could reach through the window.
Speaker 2: And I actually tested this out and it doesn't work
Speaker 2: the way that she says. I had a friend who
Speaker 2: has an original nineteen sixty eight a Volkswagen Beetle test
Speaker 2: this out for me and almost damage her car in
Speaker 2: the process. I damaged my mother's car in the process,
Speaker 2: and actually cracked the window because I reached through the hole,
Speaker 2: tried to reach the door handle, couldn't. My weight shifted,
Speaker 2: my head bumped into the ceiling of the car, the
Speaker 2: roof of the car, and well the window cracks and
Speaker 2: I almost got thrown under the wheels. Basically, so none
Speaker 2: of this can really have happened the way that she says.
Speaker 2: But that's also that's really just one element of the
Speaker 2: various other things that sounded a little odd.
Speaker 3: M hm.
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Speaker 4: the survivors or the would be survivors, their claim that
Speaker 4: they survive an encounter with Ted Bundy.
Speaker 3: We have you talk.
Speaker 4: About Mally clop story, Elizabeth's daughter Mollie and her story. Yeah,
Speaker 4: tell us about the updated and the second edition of
Speaker 4: The Fantom Prince My Life with Ted Bundy by Elizabeth
Speaker 4: Klopfer and what this addition was by her daughter explained right.
Speaker 2: So, in early twenty twenty, the new version of The
Speaker 2: Phantom Prince came out. It was updated, had yet another
Speaker 2: chapter by Elizabeth Klepfer, and also a surprise edition by Mollie,
Speaker 2: and Mollie made a few very shocking revelations. First of all,
Speaker 2: that Bundy had not been the loving family man that
Speaker 2: he had been portrayed as, that he was abusive emotionally,
Speaker 2: physically towards her and also sexually, and she went into
Speaker 2: detail about one encounter that she had with him where
Speaker 2: he sexually molested her, which caused huge ruckus in the
Speaker 2: Bundy community and also yet again dividing the community, splitting
Speaker 2: them right down the middle of people who said, yes,
Speaker 2: we had always seen this coming. Many of us had
Speaker 2: suspected that there was way more to this story because
Speaker 2: serial killers, of course, very often have a facade of family,
Speaker 2: tried to portray themselves as normal people with the normal life.
Speaker 2: But if you go into the stories of the family members,
Speaker 2: for example, Melissa Moore, Keith Jasperson's daughter, or btk's daughter.
Speaker 2: There were always signs it was not all as peachy
Speaker 2: as it was made out to be, and the same
Speaker 2: happened with Bundy. I had been awfully criticized when I
Speaker 2: once wrote an article for the Crime Piper Blow about
Speaker 2: my theory that Ted Bundy was actually a Heba file
Speaker 2: and a fabo file, which is a person who's attracted
Speaker 2: to minors. Now that's not the same as a pedophile,
Speaker 2: because they're attracted to ubescent children ages usually thirteen and up.
Speaker 2: And I had written about, you know, his younger victims,
Speaker 2: because many people believe that Kim Leech was his only
Speaker 2: underage victim she was twelve years old, and that it
Speaker 2: had happened in sort of a frenzy because he was
Speaker 2: in a psychotic bipolar state in Florida he was desperate
Speaker 2: to kill. But no, he had had many underage victims,
Speaker 2: at least eight that we know of, which include the
Speaker 2: fifteen year old unnamed Idaho hitchhiker right that he confessed
Speaker 2: to killing. So there was definitely something there in the
Speaker 2: fact that he later claimed wellography made me do it,
Speaker 2: which is very debatable. But no pornography had ever been
Speaker 2: found at his residences, not in Washington, not in Utah,
Speaker 2: not anywhere. Instead, he had always been a fan of
Speaker 2: cheerleader magazines. Now we all know how old a cheerleader
Speaker 2: on those magazines or in those magazines usually are.
Speaker 4: So you're saying too that with people that were for
Speaker 4: some reason committed to disagreeing with you, that he could
Speaker 4: have been had an interest in young girls.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The idea that which you also write about is Burgling Berlingers.
Speaker 4: Berlinger's movie project was purported to be from the perspective
Speaker 4: of Elizabeth, and so you talk about those circumstances in
Speaker 4: which this movie was made which are contrary to that,
Speaker 4: and then you offer the explanation why Mollie is likely
Speaker 4: not lying when her motivation is h is not suspect.
Speaker 4: So please explain that as you do.
Speaker 2: In the book. Yeah, exactly. There were many people who said, well,
Speaker 2: she just did it for money, She's just money hungry,
Speaker 2: and so's her mother. But those were the same people
Speaker 2: who had completely guzzled up the stories of the other
Speaker 2: unconfirmed survivors, not accusing them of being money hungry and
Speaker 2: just going for a quick cash grab. The thing with
Speaker 2: Mollie and Elizabeth Klepfer is that they were silent for decades.
Speaker 2: There were many people who contacted them, a couple that
Speaker 2: I'm friends with, and they were shot down. They just
Speaker 2: wanted nothing to do with anything Bundy. They could have
Speaker 2: made millions in those decades, they did not. They only
Speaker 2: came forth with the second Edition and the Amazon Prime
Speaker 2: documentary by tish Wood, after Berlinger had decided, well, I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna make a movie and I'm gonna portray Bundy
Speaker 2: like a family man and a heart throb. And look
Speaker 2: what a great time Elizabeth and Ted had as a couple.
Speaker 2: It was very odd to see that, and because of
Speaker 2: course he hadn't asked Elizabeth Klepper or even her daughter
Speaker 2: what their input was. If they were okay with this project,
Speaker 2: you just went for it. And so the only chance
Speaker 2: that they got to sort of change the narrative and
Speaker 2: sort of rectify the mistakes made in this movie was
Speaker 2: to come out with the second edition, A Phantom Prince
Speaker 2: and the new documentary, and there they told it as
Speaker 2: it was that Bunny was a terrible person inside out,
Speaker 2: even as a private person. There was no loving Ted,
Speaker 2: there was no good guy Ted. He was really just
Speaker 2: the monster with them as well.
Speaker 4: To add more credibility to this as well, you talk
Speaker 4: about a documentary with doctor Dorothy ottno lewis crazy not
Speaker 4: insane about the prospect or the idea that he molested
Speaker 4: at least one of his own two sisters while he
Speaker 4: was a teen can explain?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I think the documentary came out in November
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen and that was a completely new and shocking
Speaker 2: revelation by doctor Atna Lewis that Bunny had told her
Speaker 2: he had once molested at one of his sisters when
Speaker 2: he was a teen. And you know, looking at the
Speaker 2: ages of his sisters, they were obviously a whole lot younger.
Speaker 2: So is this maybe where his pedophile or hebephile urgis started.
Speaker 2: You know, he stayed on that same level. Many people
Speaker 2: said he was always like a twelve year old boy.
Speaker 2: Basically you can see his behavior in court. He was
Speaker 2: just impulsive. He acted very immaturely, and maybe that's exactly
Speaker 2: because something happened to him when he was a child
Speaker 2: where he basically he was an arrested development. Right. We
Speaker 2: know that his grandfather was very violent, very brutal. He
Speaker 2: was cruel towards animals. He kicked one of his daughters
Speaker 2: down the stairs because she'd overslept. Very obviously, he was
Speaker 2: not fond of the idea that his daughter brought home
Speaker 2: a so called bastard, because of course, back in the day,
Speaker 2: that's what they were called. Bunyoways said that he had
Speaker 2: such a happy childhood growing up up with his grandparents
Speaker 2: thinking they were his parents. I just don't see that,
Speaker 2: because nobody could corroborate that. I think that something happened
Speaker 2: to him, whatever it was, if it was physical or
Speaker 2: even sexual violence, that sort of stunted his emotional development
Speaker 2: and turned him into what he ultimately became.
Speaker 4: You talk about some things that you discovered, and you
Speaker 4: write in this book about his upbringing and some of
Speaker 4: the controversy with his grandfather, Samuel Cowell and his influence
Speaker 4: on Ted Bundy, and so as you as you do
Speaker 4: in the book, tell us what you think was that influence.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that we know by now that it's
Speaker 2: not that somebody is born bad. Somebody may be born
Speaker 2: with a predisposition to men illness. Somebody may be born
Speaker 2: with a brain that functions differently. So maybe have the
Speaker 2: brain of what we call a psychopath, some with antisocial
Speaker 2: personality disorder or another personality disorder, whatever cluster that is ABC.
Speaker 2: But that's not enough to actually activate somebody into erupting
Speaker 2: and violence. It would have taken more than that. It
Speaker 2: would have taken a neglectful or violent upbringing. We know
Speaker 2: that he was neglected or felt neglected because his parents
Speaker 2: were working. His mom remarried, married Johnny Bundy, and immediately
Speaker 2: had another child, and another child and another child, and
Speaker 2: Ted sort of became the substitute father. So he never
Speaker 2: really felt like he received that love and care. And
Speaker 2: he even remarked this later on to doctor Carlisle during
Speaker 2: the psychological assessment, and that he felt really sorry about
Speaker 2: the fact that he could never really talk to his
Speaker 2: mother about his dad. You know, he questions about his heritage,
Speaker 2: where he came from, or about anything personal or emotional.
Speaker 2: They just talked about different subjects, but it never got personal.
Speaker 2: So it's made me strange for ordinary people to hear.
Speaker 2: But this type of neglect already would have been enough.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at cases like Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 2: he didn't have an abusive upbringing, but he was severely
Speaker 2: neglected or felt very neglected as well. And sometimes it
Speaker 2: takes just that. But in Ted's case, he also suffered
Speaker 2: from an early identity crisis because he'd been raised thinking
Speaker 2: that his grandparents were his parents and that his mother
Speaker 2: was a sister. Now, if you tell a little boy
Speaker 2: at the age of three four, well, these are not
Speaker 2: your your actual parents. And by the way, i'm your mother,
Speaker 2: and I'm taking you all the way from Philadelphia to
Speaker 2: Tacoma now where you're gonna live with me. Oh and
Speaker 2: by the way, I'm also changing your last name. You're
Speaker 2: not a Cowl anymore. You're a Nelson now. And then
Speaker 2: shortly after he gets yet another new name. That does
Speaker 2: something to a child. I mean, he just you can't
Speaker 2: catch up, You can't catch catch a break. Basically, who
Speaker 2: are you? He always had this, this identity crisis. He
Speaker 2: struggled with who he was. And that's also that becomes
Speaker 2: evident in the ruses that he used and the way
Speaker 2: that he behaved in court as opposed to you know,
Speaker 2: with his girlfriends, for example, where he was extremely immature
Speaker 2: and through temper tantrums and so forth. So and of
Speaker 2: course the violence that he may have experienced at the
Speaker 2: hands of Sam Cowell. His grandfather also didn't help, So
Speaker 2: I think it's all factors that played into this absolutely.
Speaker 4: You also talk in cite doctor Elizabeth Loftus and that
Speaker 4: you say that memories change over time and why eyewitness
Speaker 4: testimonies are not reliable. Can you touch on that for us?
Speaker 2: Yes, Well, Elizabeth Loftus has dedicated her entire life to
Speaker 2: studying memory basically, and she did a study I think
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy four, even with a colleague of hers,
Speaker 2: John Palmer, and she wanted to prove how leading questions
Speaker 2: used during eyewitness interviews can influence and alter memory basically.
Speaker 2: So the I think it was forty students participating in
Speaker 2: this experiment were shown a brief clip of a car collision,
Speaker 2: and after that they were separated and we're asked to
Speaker 2: describe the collision. And when Loftus used more emotionally lame
Speaker 2: words when she talked about tell me what it was
Speaker 2: like when the car smashed into each other. Smashed that
Speaker 2: is obviously a very emotional word. When she said, tell
Speaker 2: me what happened when the cars connected with each other,
Speaker 2: that influenced the eyewitness testimonies. So the next time she
Speaker 2: asked the people where she had used the word smashed,
Speaker 2: she said, was there a glass? Did you see glass
Speaker 2: on the ground? Or did the windshield break? And they
Speaker 2: all said yes, So their memory had been altered. They
Speaker 2: heard the word smash. That changed something of how they
Speaker 2: preceived the entire accident or the clip, and then it
Speaker 2: sort of spiraled from there.
Speaker 4: You talk about as well that you talk about him
Speaker 4: being in a victim, and we talked about Ted Bundy
Speaker 4: being an unconverned victim of Samuel Cowell and his and
Speaker 4: his life growing up. You also talk about Bundy also
Speaker 4: some of the statements he made, or pardon me, that
Speaker 4: Anne Ruhl made about the idea that he picked his
Speaker 4: victims with the long hair. Again, you just put that
Speaker 4: to rest, to spell that that notion. Tell us what
Speaker 4: you found out about that idea.
Speaker 2: About the hair idea, or about more. Okay, Well, it
Speaker 2: didn't really take a whole lot because I just looked
Speaker 2: at every available victim photo. So I looked through the
Speaker 2: police files and used Google and did everything to just
Speaker 2: get my hand on as many photos as possible and
Speaker 2: also see if I could date those photos. And of
Speaker 2: course what became evident is, first of all, they were
Speaker 2: not all dark haired. There were blond ones, brunettes, and
Speaker 2: different shades dark brown, even people with blackish brown hair,
Speaker 2: different lengths of hair. Now, of course, we always have
Speaker 2: to take into account that Lisa Levi had shorter hair
Speaker 2: when she was attacked, but that was not his usual.
Speaker 2: He didn't really use his usual mo here. That was
Speaker 2: a blitz attack. It was dark in the room. I
Speaker 2: don't think that he was going through the rooms and
Speaker 2: seeing is that my type? Am I going to kill her?
Speaker 2: He was just in a complete frenzy. But with the
Speaker 2: other girls, you know, I absolutely believe that he had
Speaker 2: a type. I mean, you just have to look at
Speaker 2: his girlfriends. Diane Edwards had brown hair and Elizabeth Klapfer
Speaker 2: had here. So yeah, he probably was into pronounced. But
Speaker 2: when the kill urge emerged and he couldn't get his
Speaker 2: hands on so many that he had pre selected, then
Speaker 2: he just went for anybody that would go with him.
Speaker 2: Anybody that was pretty, that was a woman that was Caucasian. Sure,
Speaker 2: but the hair color was like the least of his issues.
Speaker 2: Are the things that really mattered to him.
Speaker 4: Yes, let's use this as an opportunity to stop for
Speaker 4: this commercial break.
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Speaker 4: Now we talked about you talk about things in this book,
Speaker 4: like so many of these unconfirmed survivors, when interviewed or
Speaker 4: on Facebook posts or in various interviews, talk about the
Speaker 4: entity and Ted Bundy's eyes and his physical appearance transforming changing.
Speaker 4: Tell us about some of the or many of the
Speaker 4: stories that include that kind of idea of the entity.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean the entity is a difficult thing. Even
Speaker 2: among my psychologists friends, everybody argues about what that actually
Speaker 2: was Did he have dissociative personality disorder? Was it just
Speaker 2: his way of trying to explain there is an urge
Speaker 2: in me that almost seems like a different and Ted
Speaker 2: like an entity or not. We'll probably never really know
Speaker 2: the answer. I think that Bill Hagmeyer probably learned the
Speaker 2: truth and all there really was to the entity thing,
Speaker 2: because Ted Bunny ultimately admitted, you know, everybody asked me
Speaker 2: about this entity. The thing is I really just wanted
Speaker 2: to kill. I can't explain it otherwise. I really just
Speaker 2: had to kill. So that was really all there is
Speaker 2: to it. As for these metaphysical myths like oh, his
Speaker 2: eyes turned black, that's actually easily explained. There's nothing supernatural
Speaker 2: or demonic about it. There's a condition called my dreassis.
Speaker 2: I hope I'm pronouncing this correctly because I've only ever
Speaker 2: seen it written. And this is when you're in a
Speaker 2: state of high arousal, when you're very excited, or even
Speaker 2: when you when you're very stressed, your pupils dilate to
Speaker 2: the extent that it looks like there's no color left
Speaker 2: in your eyes. It's all black. Another thing is with
Speaker 2: the odor. Some of the investigators and psychologists noted that
Speaker 2: he at times smelled bad, almost like rugburn, or like
Speaker 2: sulfuric or just weird, weirdly toxic. That is also a
Speaker 2: stress response, and I think we can all agree that
Speaker 2: if you're accused of murder and you're being assessed by
Speaker 2: psychologists and you think, oh boy, they see right through me,
Speaker 2: you're very, very stressed, and so you know your pupils dilate,
Speaker 2: you have this midra assis going on, and you start
Speaker 2: to smell, you start to sweat very badly because you're nervous.
Speaker 2: So there's not really anything demonic or satanic going on.
Speaker 2: I understand that some people find this very fascinating, and
Speaker 2: there's sort of an overlap with the true crime and
Speaker 2: the horror community or paranormal community, But I'm personally not
Speaker 2: too interested in these paranormal stories because, first of all,
Speaker 2: we can't really verify any of those claims if they
Speaker 2: are ghosts or spirits or demonic possessions. All we can
Speaker 2: say with certainty is that science can explain many of
Speaker 2: the phenomena that previously were thought to be supernatural.
Speaker 4: You include a story with Liz Eric eric Kellyan made
Speaker 4: mismounce her name, you titled the Self debunked story of
Speaker 4: October first, twenty nineteen article. She wrote, or I believed
Speaker 4: I encountered Ted Bundy until my research proved me wrong.
Speaker 4: Can you tell us about this story and the less
Speaker 4: and that she has for everyone reading that?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the lesson was basically very similarly to the
Speaker 2: one that Mitzi beter Herb had, which was be very
Speaker 2: mindful of your surroundings, trust your got instinct, be careful,
Speaker 2: maybe do not pick up hitchhikers and so forth. But
Speaker 2: she was very honest about her her story. She really
Speaker 2: initially thought that Ted Bunny had picked her up. Again,
Speaker 2: here we are with the memories she remembered his face.
Speaker 2: Of course, it turned out that it could not possibly
Speaker 2: have been Ted Bundy. But instead of you know, sort
Speaker 2: of beating around the bush or trying to make the
Speaker 2: narrative fit, she admitted, you know, I looked into it,
Speaker 2: I did my own research, and I realized it had
Speaker 2: to be honest, it was not Ted Bundy. I think
Speaker 2: it's important to admit that and encourage people. Look, even
Speaker 2: if you already said something online, even if you wrote
Speaker 2: something online or you started writing a book or a
Speaker 2: story about your encounter, and you do the research, or
Speaker 2: you suddenly realize no, this could not have happened. Admit it.
Speaker 2: Just come forward there. People are going to be way
Speaker 2: more grateful and are not going to mock you and
Speaker 2: disbelieve you if you just if you're just honest and say, well,
Speaker 2: I still have a message. It was not Ted Bunny,
Speaker 2: but I still have a message. And that's just be
Speaker 2: careful out there, guys.
Speaker 4: With this book. You risked criticism for this. Why is this?
Speaker 4: Why did you risk any kind of criticism with this?
Speaker 4: Why would people be critical of you unearthing the facts?
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know that we live in an
Speaker 2: age of the me too movement, and not that this
Speaker 2: is generally a bad thing. It's always good to see
Speaker 2: that people in power, no matter if they're men or women,
Speaker 2: are taken down a notch and are being held accountable
Speaker 2: for abusive behavior. Of course, the problem is that women,
Speaker 2: especially women, have come forth and declared certain men guilty
Speaker 2: of a crime, yet they can't prove it, and then
Speaker 2: they argue, well, how should we prove it? This usually
Speaker 2: happens behind closed doors. That's true. I've been there. I
Speaker 2: know how awful this is. It feels like the victim
Speaker 2: has a fate and the perpetrator has free will basically,
Speaker 2: but you just can't make a statement and say cancel
Speaker 2: this person. This person is guilty of a terrible crime
Speaker 2: and you have no proof, right. So I knew I
Speaker 2: was going to get attacked for for the book and
Speaker 2: for daring to look into all of these different stories
Speaker 2: and try to find like a common denominator there about
Speaker 2: why these people might be fabricating stories or why some
Speaker 2: of them might just misremember very honestly not know that
Speaker 2: it didn't happen the way it did. But it was
Speaker 2: just important for me to change how we discuss these
Speaker 2: cases and that we just accept that somebody is accused
Speaker 2: of a crime that they didn't commit. Now you can
Speaker 2: always argue, well Bunny was a bad guy, Does it
Speaker 2: really matter if we ascribe even more crimes to him,
Speaker 2: if we say, well he did this or that, Well, yeah,
Speaker 2: it does because it changes how we profile him. It
Speaker 2: changes how we look at his psychopathology at the time,
Speaker 2: at the timeline, and everything else, and that also influences
Speaker 2: how or potentially how law enforcement and psychologists are going
Speaker 2: to look at future cases. So it's very important to
Speaker 2: always be honest and try to be as scientific and
Speaker 2: reasonable and logical as possible with these types of cases.
Speaker 4: What did you Were there any surprises in all of
Speaker 4: this in terms of what you did uncover for this
Speaker 4: book project.
Speaker 2: Everything was surprising because I didn't go in saying I
Speaker 2: want to debunk all of this or I want to
Speaker 2: prove they're all right. I just went in with an
Speaker 2: open mind, being very curious. Okay, let's see if we
Speaker 2: can actually do this. I mean, how many of them
Speaker 2: are potentially telling the truth? I mean, how exciting would
Speaker 2: it be to be able to talk to real survivor
Speaker 2: and include them and learn more about who Ted BONDI was.
Speaker 2: I didn't go in with a preconceived not at all.
Speaker 2: So everything was surprising to me that I uncovered. I
Speaker 2: think maybe in hindsight, maybe I was surprised that all
Speaker 2: of the stories had so many different elements that didn't
Speaker 2: make sense. I had expected to at least find a
Speaker 2: couple cases where I would say, well, yes, I completely
Speaker 2: believe that it happened the way this person says, but
Speaker 2: that just didn't really happen. Other than with Molly klepfor.
Speaker 4: You mentioned Kevin M. Sullivan being your mentor with this project,
Speaker 4: tell us a little bit more of the invaluable help
Speaker 4: that Kevin M. Sullivan imparted to you for this project.
Speaker 2: He was just always very encouraging and he told me
Speaker 2: right after that, I think this is a very important
Speaker 2: thing to write down these stories. You've done it on
Speaker 2: your blog, and now you're trying to turn this into
Speaker 2: a book.
Speaker 4: Do it.
Speaker 2: Any question you ever have that I could help with,
Speaker 2: you can ask me. He did that. I mean, he
Speaker 2: was just an invaluable source. Most of all, though, he
Speaker 2: was just the best friend you can ever imagine. He
Speaker 2: was always encouraging, He always had some really good advice
Speaker 2: about how to tackle a certain issue, or what else
Speaker 2: to look into, or just how to word certain things.
Speaker 2: Because of course, when you get into all these women
Speaker 2: were not just attacked but partly claim that they were raped.
Speaker 2: There's just things where you have to ask yourself, is
Speaker 2: it necessary that I write this in a book because
Speaker 2: it's distasteful and it could be re traumatizing if this
Speaker 2: person really was a victim, if you had have Ted
Speaker 2: Bundy or another offender. So we sort of talked through
Speaker 2: these things a little bit, and he was just there
Speaker 2: step by step, every step of the way, and I
Speaker 2: appreciate him.
Speaker 4: Ever, he must have told you about similar instances where
Speaker 4: he had disagreements with people. Once he's trying to write
Speaker 4: a book and offering anybody he has over the years,
Speaker 4: offered anybody that felt that they were had an encounter
Speaker 4: with Ted Bundy or had any information regarding Ted Buddy
Speaker 4: to come forward. So he did probably tell you about
Speaker 4: some of the encounters he's had with people that disagreed
Speaker 4: with him.
Speaker 2: Yes, he did. I mentioned I think two of them
Speaker 2: in the book, and that was one man, surprisingly who
Speaker 2: claimed that he had been a Ted Bundy victim and
Speaker 2: also witnessed the abduction of the unidentified Idaho hitchhiker. He
Speaker 2: said that Ted Bunny was a pedophile who also tried
Speaker 2: to sexually molest him, and his story just kept changing.
Speaker 2: He had initially contacted Solid to talk about him, you know,
Speaker 2: can I maybe get a mention in your book? Then
Speaker 2: later he recan and said, well, it's not exactly my
Speaker 2: intention of making it into your book. But when Sally
Speaker 2: dug a bit, it's just that his story changed so
Speaker 2: dramatically each time, and he always got ready to say,
Speaker 2: well next time I have a funky phone. Something isn't
Speaker 2: right with my phone. Next time, I'll tell you all
Speaker 2: about it, and he just kept posting in the groups
Speaker 2: as well. At some point people were of course overjoyed,
Speaker 2: Oh my new Bundy information, tell us everything, and he
Speaker 2: never really did. He just kept repeating these different elements
Speaker 2: of the story that did not fit together at all, right,
Speaker 2: and eventually became admin of his own group, where to
Speaker 2: this day I hear he is telling people that tomorrow
Speaker 2: I will write it all down. Today I can because
Speaker 2: my phone is being weird. So that's one of the
Speaker 2: people that I know about. And another is, of course,
Speaker 2: when Sally said, he also believes that there are a
Speaker 2: couple elements, some elements and staple story that he cannot
Speaker 2: believe happen the way she claims, just because he knows
Speaker 2: the case inside out like nobody else. There was a
Speaker 2: documentary filmmaker who very badly attacked him and then started
Speaker 2: rumors about him online that he hated raped women and
Speaker 2: he disbelieved raped women, which is absolutely not true. So
Speaker 2: this is yeah, this is just the kind of backlash
Speaker 2: and criticism that you face when you dare go into
Speaker 2: these stories. And I think we can all agree that
Speaker 2: Sullivan is as successful as he is because he really
Speaker 2: does care about the victims. He cares about the cases.
Speaker 2: He knows a stuff. He's written six books and more
Speaker 2: coming obviously, as he announced, so he really Yeah.
Speaker 4: We mentioned just in an introduction you were part of
Speaker 4: Kevin Sullivan's last book, the sixth book. Tell us just
Speaker 4: what your participation was in that book and what the
Speaker 4: title of that book was.
Speaker 2: Yes, that was the sixth book, The Enigma. And he
Speaker 2: asked me if I maybe wanted to explore how Ted
Speaker 2: Bundy is viewed in Europe and especially in Germany where
Speaker 2: I grew up, and I said, I can certainly try.
Speaker 2: It was overjoyed that he thought I was good enough
Speaker 2: a writer and a researcher to do this, and I
Speaker 2: spent a couple of months online on different forums across Europe,
Speaker 2: even on French forums, always translating, you know, with Google Translate,
Speaker 2: what they were saying to me and how they were
Speaker 2: answering the polls, talking to a lot of people online
Speaker 2: about how they viewed Ted Bundy. Were they maybe really
Speaker 2: interested in the research side of things or was it
Speaker 2: more like your average true crime afficionado who sort of
Speaker 2: love serial killer stories, sort of like you would like
Speaker 2: horror stories, or is it maybe people who are in
Speaker 2: love with serial killers, the hypristophiles? What else is there?
Speaker 3: And is there?
Speaker 2: Can you say that maybe in Northern Europe people are
Speaker 2: generally behaving differently or viewing Ted Bundi differently than in
Speaker 2: Eastern Europe, for example, or Southern Europe? And why could
Speaker 2: that be? So? I sought to explore that I made
Speaker 2: very clear early on in the chapter that this was
Speaker 2: only my own personal findings gathered within a few couple
Speaker 2: of months. If you wanted to do an actual reliable
Speaker 2: field study, I mean, it would be fantastic to have,
Speaker 2: but obviously that would have to happen with way more
Speaker 2: participants and over a longer period of time.
Speaker 4: This is a fascinating addition to the true to the
Speaker 4: Ted Bundy official story. And I want to thank you
Speaker 4: so much for coming on and talking about Ted Bundy
Speaker 4: examining the Unconfirmed Survivor stories. We talked about, or you
Speaker 4: mentioned in your book about your crime Piper blog. Can
Speaker 4: you tell us a little bit about that and if
Speaker 4: you have a website or a Facebook page for the
Speaker 4: Ted Bundy Examining the Unconfirmed Survivor Stories.
Speaker 2: I do not have a page for the book. Friends
Speaker 2: of mine told me that I should definitely finally create
Speaker 2: a writer page for myself because obviously I'm ster still
Speaker 2: working on other projects, both true crime and fiction and
Speaker 2: so forth, so I'm working on that. Keep on the
Speaker 2: look look out. And as for the blog, that's a
Speaker 2: word Press blog that I started with a couple of
Speaker 2: friends of mine initially in twenty eighteen, and it was
Speaker 2: really never supposed to be this big thing that it became,
Speaker 2: because by now we have I think about one hundred
Speaker 2: and ten posts written by me and friends and guest bloggers,
Speaker 2: and we're definitely gonna keep going posting about both Ted Bundy,
Speaker 2: partly Edmund Kemper, Scott Peterson, we have a couple of
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson writers, and also explore different paraphilias and things
Speaker 2: topic relating to psychology. So yeah, we're gonna stay around.
Speaker 4: That's great. Thank you so much, Ted Bundy examining the
Speaker 4: official unconfirmed survivors' stories. Thank you so much, Aaron Banks.
Speaker 4: It's been an absolutely an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: You have a great da.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 4: Thank you, good night,