Speaker 1: Welcome to the deep dive. Today. We're to be going
Speaker 1: deep on cyber warfare. We've got a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: fascinating sources lined up, academic book excerpts, some articles, reports,
Speaker 1: all aimed at giving you the listener a clearer picture
Speaker 1: of this digital battleground.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very complex landscape. And one of the
Speaker 2: first things you realize when you start looking into cyber
Speaker 2: warfare is that even defining it is a battle in itself.
Speaker 1: It really is. It's like trying to nail jelly to
Speaker 1: a wall. So how do we even begin to understand
Speaker 1: what is and isn't cyber warfare?
Speaker 2: I think it's helpful to think about it like this.
Speaker 2: Imagine a spectrum of activity. On one end, you've got
Speaker 2: your classics cybercrime, you know, actions that are purely motivated
Speaker 2: by financial gain.
Speaker 1: Okay, so like the Heartland payment systems breach where hackers
Speaker 1: stole millions of credit.
Speaker 2: Card numbers, exactly digital highst classic. But then on the
Speaker 2: other end of.
Speaker 1: The spectrum, we've got actual cyber warfare, where motives are
Speaker 1: political or strategic.
Speaker 2: You got it, think disrupting a nation's power grid or
Speaker 2: stealing military secrets. Murky middle ground. That gets really.
Speaker 1: Interesting because you could use the same tactics for both
Speaker 1: crime and warfare right exactly.
Speaker 2: So you could have something like website defacement. Let's say
Speaker 2: a group like Team Evil might deface a website to
Speaker 2: protest a government's actions.
Speaker 1: Well, another group might deface a company's website to damage their.
Speaker 2: Business, same action, different goals.
Speaker 1: So motive is key, But how do you prove intent
Speaker 1: when everybody's hiding behind keyboards in fake IP addresses? It
Speaker 1: seems like pinning down responsibility would be almost.
Speaker 2: Impossible, And that's the whole challenge of plausible deniability. It's
Speaker 2: like leaving a threatening note, but you're wearing gloves and
Speaker 2: you're disguising your handwriting.
Speaker 1: Nobody would know who did it, right, And.
Speaker 2: That's how states can use intermediaries or mask their digital footprints.
Speaker 2: It makes it really hard to say definitively, this is
Speaker 2: who did it.
Speaker 1: It's a digital who doing it, Isn't it? No wonder?
Speaker 1: It's so hard to figure out the rules of engagement
Speaker 1: when it comes to cyber warfare, like is a cyber
Speaker 1: attack an active war? When is a military response justified? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think the two thousand and eight war between Russia
Speaker 2: and Georgia really kind of brought this to lay.
Speaker 1: Right Now, you had actual tanks rolling.
Speaker 2: In, but at the same time you have this massive
Speaker 2: wave of cyber attacks that hit Georgian government websites, so.
Speaker 1: In chaos and confusion totally.
Speaker 2: And while Russia denied any involvement, they obviously benefited from
Speaker 2: the disruption.
Speaker 1: It's like a sneak attack but for the digital age, right, and.
Speaker 2: It really exposed a huge gap in international law. You know,
Speaker 2: traditional rules of warfare were written for a world of
Speaker 2: bombs and bullets, not bits and bites playing.
Speaker 1: Catch up big time. So we've got this shadowy world
Speaker 1: where the lines between crime and warfare are blurred. Attribution
Speaker 1: is a nightmare, and the rule book is basically still
Speaker 1: being written. But who are the players in this digital arena.
Speaker 1: It can't just be governments, right, absolutely not.
Speaker 2: It's a very diverse cast of characters. We've got non
Speaker 2: state actors. Could be activests like Team Evil or cyber
Speaker 2: criminals just out to make a quick buck.
Speaker 1: Some are driven by ideology, some by cold.
Speaker 2: Hard cash totally, and the skill level varies widely as well.
Speaker 2: So you have your sort of script kitties who are
Speaker 2: using pre made hacking tools, so.
Speaker 1: Like someone trying to bake a soouf flea out.
Speaker 2: Of a box precisely. But then you have these highly
Speaker 2: skilled programmers who can create sophisticated malware.
Speaker 1: You know, they're like the master chefs of the digital underworld.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then lurking in the shadows, you have your
Speaker 2: state sponsored hackers, you know, the elite forces of cyber warfare.
Speaker 1: Okay, so these are government backed teams YEP, with.
Speaker 2: The resources and training to conduct really sophisticated attacks, everything
Speaker 2: from stealing state secrets to disrupting critical infrastructure.
Speaker 1: It's like a digital arms race with governments constantly trying
Speaker 1: to outdo each other.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. But the thing that's really frightening is that you
Speaker 2: don't need a government budget to play in this game.
Speaker 1: You're talking about things like the configure worm configer.
Speaker 2: It infected millions of computers all over the world, including
Speaker 2: government systems, critical infrastructure.
Speaker 1: The worm that just won't die to this day.
Speaker 2: We don't know for or who created it, or what
Speaker 2: their goal was. It's a stark reminder that anyone with
Speaker 2: a keyboard and an Internet connection can be a force
Speaker 2: to be reckoned with in cyber warfare.
Speaker 1: Which brings us to another fascinating case, ghost Net. It
Speaker 1: sounds like something straight out of a spy movie.
Speaker 2: It does, right. This Chinese espionage ring infiltrated over one
Speaker 2: thousand computers in over one hundred countries.
Speaker 1: We're talking embassies, government offices.
Speaker 2: Even the Dalai Lama's office was compromised. They did it
Speaker 2: all through social engineering.
Speaker 1: Hold on, So they tricked people into compromising their own systems,
Speaker 1: like a digital trojan horse exactly.
Speaker 2: So they'd send very targeted emails, sometimes with malicious attachments,
Speaker 2: sometimes with links. Someone in the Dali Lama's office clicked
Speaker 2: on a link that seemed harmless enough.
Speaker 1: But they were actually installing malware that gave the attackers
Speaker 1: full access to their computer. Right.
Speaker 2: It just shows that the human element is still the
Speaker 2: weakest link in the cybersecurity chain.
Speaker 1: So that means that you, the listener, are a potential target.
Speaker 1: Think about the information share online, the links you click.
Speaker 1: You could be giving an attack or a backdoor into
Speaker 1: your life without even realizing it. Okay, so we've met
Speaker 1: the players. Now let's talk tactics. What are some of
Speaker 1: the weapons in their digital arsenal?
Speaker 2: Well? A classic one is the denial of service attack.
Speaker 2: The d DOS attack basically flooding a website with so
Speaker 2: much traffic that it crashes, preventing legitimate users from accessing it.
Speaker 1: Like those attacks on Estonia back in two thousand and seven.
Speaker 2: Exactly Estonian government websites, media websites, they were all knocked offline,
Speaker 2: crippling their ability to communicate.
Speaker 1: Is a real wake up call to the world.
Speaker 2: And while Russia denied involvement, it had all the hallmarks
Speaker 2: of a state sponsored attack.
Speaker 1: Clausible deniability strikes again. But d DOS attacks are just
Speaker 1: one tool in the cyber warfare playbook. There's also website defacement,
Speaker 1: which we talked about before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like Team Evil replacing website content with their anti
Speaker 2: Israel messages.
Speaker 1: More symbolic than destructive, but still disruptive.
Speaker 2: You've also got social engineering, like in the ghost net case.
Speaker 2: And of course there's malware.
Speaker 1: Our old friend, the configureworm.
Speaker 2: Configer is a prime example. But malware comes in all
Speaker 2: shapes and sizes. Some malware is designed to steal data,
Speaker 2: some to spy on your activity, some can even cause
Speaker 2: physical damage.
Speaker 1: And then you have the ultimate cyber weapon, yeah, the
Speaker 1: zero day exploit.
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, the holy grail for hackers. That's where an
Speaker 2: attacker finds a vulnerability in a piece of software that
Speaker 2: the developers don't even know about yet.
Speaker 1: So it's like having a master key that can open
Speaker 1: any door. I can see why those are so valuable, Exactly.
Speaker 2: A zero day attack can be incredibly effective because there's
Speaker 2: no patch, there's no defense against it. Nations will often
Speaker 2: hoard these vulnerabilities, you know, use them very sparingly, because
Speaker 2: once they're discovered and patched, they lose their effectiveness.
Speaker 1: The constant cat and mouse.
Speaker 2: Game attackers finding new exploits defenders scrambling to patch them
Speaker 2: before they can be used, and the stakes.
Speaker 1: Are unbelievably high. I mean, imagine a zero day exploit
Speaker 1: that could shut down a power grid or disrupt air
Speaker 1: traffic control.
Speaker 2: It's a chilling thought. So we've talked about players and tactics,
Speaker 2: but let's get back to that digital fog of war.
Speaker 2: How do investigators even begin to unravel these attacks and
Speaker 2: figure out who's really behind them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like detective work, but in the digital age.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it. So you have
Speaker 2: these forensic experts analyzing network traffic. They're examining the malware
Speaker 2: code looking for unique signatures, trying to track down domain registrations,
Speaker 2: server locations.
Speaker 1: Following digital breadcrumbs exactly.
Speaker 2: But attackers are getting smarter all the time, right, so they're.
Speaker 1: Using things like proxy servers and botnets to cover their.
Speaker 2: Tracks, which makes attribution even more difficult. So even with
Speaker 2: all the high tech tools at their disposal, it's still
Speaker 2: incredibly challenging to say with one hundred percent certainty, this
Speaker 2: is who did it.
Speaker 1: So take the DDAs attacks on South Korea and the
Speaker 1: US back in two thousand and nine.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Initially everyone thought it was North Korea, but
Speaker 2: once they started digging deeper, it turned out to be
Speaker 2: much more complicated. The attack actually seemed to originate in Miami.
Speaker 2: It was routed through the UK, controlling servers in multiple countries,
Speaker 2: which then commanded a whole botnet that actually launched the attacks.
Speaker 1: It's like a digital shell game, it really is.
Speaker 2: It shows that even when we think we have a suspect,
Speaker 2: there's often more to the story than meets the eye,
Speaker 2: and all.
Speaker 1: That uncertainty makes responding to cyber attacks incredibly difficult.
Speaker 2: So what do you do when you come under digital fire?
Speaker 2: What's the playbook?
Speaker 1: Well, I imagine responses can range from diplomatic pressure and
Speaker 1: sanctions to maybe developing our own offensive cyber capabilities.
Speaker 2: Right, but that raises a whole other set of questions.
Speaker 2: What are the ethical implications? What about the legal concerns?
Speaker 2: What if we misidentify the attacker and we retaliate against
Speaker 2: the wrong country.
Speaker 1: We could end up triggering a real world conflict exactly?
Speaker 2: And who's to say things won't spiral out of control.
Speaker 2: One cyber attack leads to another, and before you know it,
Speaker 2: we're tumbling down a very dangerous path.
Speaker 1: The lack of clear rules and the potential for miscalculation
Speaker 1: makes responding to cyber attacks in incredibly complex.
Speaker 2: Absolutely so, where does all of this leave us. We're
Speaker 2: living in a world where the line between physical and
Speaker 2: digital battlefields is blurring, the rules are constantly evolving, and
Speaker 2: the stakes are incredibly high. And as we'll explore in
Speaker 2: the next part of our deep dive, the future of
Speaker 2: cyber warfare is evolving in ways that are both fascinating
Speaker 2: and frightening.
Speaker 1: Buckle up, it's going to be a wild ride. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to our deep dive into cyber warfare.
Speaker 2: Where we left off kind of pondering the implications of
Speaker 2: a world where those lines between the physical and the
Speaker 2: digital battlefields are blurring.
Speaker 1: Right, And you know, it almost feels like we're stepping
Speaker 1: out of the battlefields and into a science fiction novel
Speaker 1: because now we're facing the rise of AI in cyber warfare.
Speaker 2: AI. Yeah, it's a game changer for sure.
Speaker 1: So give us the outlook good, bad, ugly?
Speaker 2: Well, think about this a cybersecurity force that never sleeps.
Speaker 2: It can analyze mountains of data in the blink of
Speaker 2: an eye and spot threats before they even materialize. That's
Speaker 2: the potential upside of AI when it comes to defense.
Speaker 1: So it's like having an army of superpowered security guards
Speaker 1: constantly patrolling our digital borders exactly.
Speaker 2: AI can sift through these massive amounts of data to
Speaker 2: tech threats, respond to them way faster than any human
Speaker 2: ever could. It could be a game changer in terms
Speaker 2: of defending against these attacks.
Speaker 1: That sounds promising, But I have a feeling there's a
Speaker 1: flip side to this AI coin.
Speaker 2: There always is, right, So those same capabilities that make
Speaker 2: AI so powerful for defense can also be weaponized.
Speaker 1: So what are we talking about?
Speaker 2: AI powered malware that learns and adapts to our defenses
Speaker 2: becoming more sophisticated with every single attack, or AI systems
Speaker 2: churning out incredibly convincing fake news and propaganda.
Speaker 1: Oh great, Now we not only have to worry about
Speaker 1: hackers and government agents, but now we have to worry
Speaker 1: about rogue AI spreading disinformation and chaos.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a real concern. And then there's the question
Speaker 2: of autonomous weapons.
Speaker 1: Hold on, are we talking about like Skynet here killer
Speaker 1: robots going row?
Speaker 2: Not quite, but we are talking about cyber weapons that
Speaker 2: are capable of operating independently without any human intervention.
Speaker 1: So that raises some serious questions. Right about accountability?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? So who's responsible when an AI launches an attack?
Speaker 2: Is it the programmer, the government that deployed it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a real moral and legal minefield. And what
Speaker 1: about unintended consequences? Is there a chance that an autonomous
Speaker 1: cyber weapon could misinterpret its programming or encounter a situation
Speaker 1: that it wasn't designed to handle.
Speaker 2: It's definitely possible. That's why the development and deployment of
Speaker 2: these autonomous cyber weapons needs to be approached with extreme caution.
Speaker 2: But even if we put AI aside for a moment,
Speaker 2: another major concern is the increasing vulnerability of critical infrastructure.
Speaker 1: So we're talking about things like power grids, transportation systems,
Speaker 1: financial networks.
Speaker 2: The systems that keep society running. And the problem is
Speaker 2: a lot of these systems were designed before cybersecurity was
Speaker 2: even really a thing, so.
Speaker 1: They're like old houses with flimsy locksading for someone to
Speaker 1: break in.
Speaker 2: And the consequences of a successful attack on critical infrastructure
Speaker 2: could be absolutely devastating, widespread blackouts, economic chaos, we could
Speaker 2: even see loss of life.
Speaker 1: It's a chilling thought. And it's not just nation states
Speaker 1: that we have.
Speaker 2: To worry about, right right, Terrorist organizations are increasingly turning
Speaker 2: to cyber warfare tactics.
Speaker 1: So are we saying groups like ISIS could potentially launch
Speaker 1: cyber attacks to disrupt Western societies.
Speaker 2: It's a real possibility, and they may not have the
Speaker 2: resources of a nation state, but they can still inflict
Speaker 2: significant damage. And remember, attribution is difficult. A terrorist group
Speaker 2: could launch an attack and it might take months to
Speaker 2: figure out who was responsible.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like the cyber battlefield of the future
Speaker 1: is going to be pretty complex. We've got AI powered attacks,
Speaker 1: vulnerable infrastructure, terrorist groups getting in on the action. How
Speaker 1: are policymakers even supposed to wrap their heads around all
Speaker 1: of this?
Speaker 2: That's a million dollar question and there's no easy answer.
Speaker 2: But I think one crucial step is to move away
Speaker 2: from this siloed approach to cybersecurity siloads.
Speaker 1: What do you mean?
Speaker 2: Well, right now, we tend to think about cyber threats
Speaker 2: in these separate categories. You know, we've got cybercrime, we've
Speaker 2: got cyber espionage, we've got cyber warfare, right, But in reality,
Speaker 2: these things are all interconnected.
Speaker 1: So an attack that starts out as cybercrime could escalate
Speaker 1: into cyber warfare, or maybe a cyber espionage operation could
Speaker 1: be used to gather intelligence for a future cyber attack.
Speaker 2: It's all part of the same web, right, And if
Speaker 2: we're going to effectively defend ourselves, we need to start
Speaker 2: thinking about cybersecurity as one unified challenge.
Speaker 1: Okay, so how do we do that?
Speaker 2: Well, we need to break down those barriers between government agencies,
Speaker 2: private companies, international organizations.
Speaker 1: So it's about sharing information, coordinating our efforts, developing a
Speaker 1: comprehensive strategy that can adapt to this constantly shifting landscape exactly.
Speaker 2: And it's not just about technology, right, we need to
Speaker 2: invest in education and training as.
Speaker 1: Well, bring people up to speedsol.
Speaker 2: Cultivate a workforce that really understands how cyber warfare works
Speaker 2: and can defend our systems against these increasingly sophisticated attacks.
Speaker 1: It sounds like we need a whole of society approach
Speaker 1: to this, everyone from government agencies to private businesses, even
Speaker 1: individual citizens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we all have a part to play. We need
Speaker 2: to be aware of the threat, understand our role in cybersecurity,
Speaker 2: and work together to protect our digital world. The future
Speaker 2: of cyber warfare is uncertain, but one thing is for sure,
Speaker 2: it's going to be a wild ride. Welcome back to
Speaker 2: the deep dive where we've been kind of, you know,
Speaker 2: really digging into this complex and evolving landscape of cyber warfare.
Speaker 1: And it really is a global issue, isn't it. Cyber
Speaker 1: attacks they don't respect national borders.
Speaker 2: No, they don't.
Speaker 1: So it seems like international cooperation is absolutely key when
Speaker 1: it comes to tackling this threat.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. It's like trying to contain a wildfire, but it's
Speaker 2: spreading across multiple countries. You need everyone working together if
Speaker 2: you want to put it out.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what does international cooperation in cyber warfare actually
Speaker 1: look like in practice. Are we talking about treaties, global
Speaker 1: cyber police force? What are we talking about?
Speaker 2: It's definitely complicated. I mean there have been some attempts
Speaker 2: to establish some international norms and agreements, but progress has
Speaker 2: been slow.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I can imagine getting all the countries in the
Speaker 1: world to agree on anything, let alone something as complex
Speaker 1: as cyber warfare.
Speaker 2: It's like hurting cats.
Speaker 1: Exactly, hurting digital cats.
Speaker 2: But you know it's not impossible. For example, the UN
Speaker 2: has been working on this set of norms for responsible
Speaker 2: state behavior in cyberspace, so.
Speaker 1: It's like a digital Geneva convention.
Speaker 2: That's a good way to put it. Yeah, it's aimed
Speaker 2: at preventing conflict, promoting stability, protecting critical infrastructure online.
Speaker 1: A Digital Geneva convention. I like that. But what about enforcement?
Speaker 1: How do you hold countries accountable if they violate these norms.
Speaker 1: I mean it's not like we have a global cyber
Speaker 1: police force ready to swoop in and arrest the bad guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Enforcement is the tricky part. No easy answer right now.
Speaker 2: It's really about diplomacy and international pressure. So you're trying
Speaker 2: to shame countries that engage in irresponsible behavior, maybe impost sanctions.
Speaker 2: You want to make it clear that there will be
Speaker 2: consequences for their actions.
Speaker 1: It's like a digital game of diplomacy, using carrots and
Speaker 1: sticks to encourage the good behavior and discourage the bad actors.
Speaker 2: Exactly. We're also starting to see these regional partnerships and
Speaker 2: alliances focused on cybersecurity, like NATO has their Cyber Defense
Speaker 2: Center of Excellence.
Speaker 1: So basically, countries are teaming up to share information, coordinate
Speaker 1: their defenses, have each other's.
Speaker 2: Backs, strengthen numbers. Right by working together, countries can pool
Speaker 2: their resources, share their expertise and intelligence, create a more
Speaker 2: robust cyber defense network.
Speaker 1: So international cooperations obviously super important. What about individual responsibility?
Speaker 1: What can we as everyday internet users do to protect ourselves?
Speaker 2: You know, that's a great question and it's something that
Speaker 2: we should all be thinking about.
Speaker 1: Because we don't have control over what nation states terrorist
Speaker 1: groups are.
Speaker 2: Doing, right, but we can take steps to make ourselves
Speaker 2: less vulnerable to attacks.
Speaker 1: So it's all about being cyber aware, practicing good digital
Speaker 1: hygiene exactly.
Speaker 2: Be mindful of what you're sharing online. Think twice before
Speaker 2: you click on any suspicious links or opening attachments from
Speaker 2: senders that you don't recognize. Treat your passwords like they're
Speaker 2: the keys to your digital kingdom.
Speaker 1: Protect them absolutely.
Speaker 2: Strong passwords, two factor authentication, make sure your software is
Speaker 2: up to date.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all those things that we hear about, but sometimes
Speaker 1: we let slide.
Speaker 2: And it's not just about the technical stuff. It's also
Speaker 2: about thinking critically. You know, don't fall for phishing scams,
Speaker 2: Question the information that you see online. Don't believe everything you.
Speaker 1: Read, because in this world of cyber warfare, information can
Speaker 1: be a weapon.
Speaker 2: Exactly. We need to be much more discerning consumers of information.
Speaker 2: Double check your sources, look for signs of manipulation. Don't
Speaker 2: be a pawn in someone else's game.
Speaker 1: So as we kind of wrap up our deep dive
Speaker 1: into the world of cyber warfare, it seems like the
Speaker 1: key takeaway is that it's a complex threat that requires
Speaker 1: a multi pronged approach. We need strong defenses at the
Speaker 1: national and international level, but we also need informed citizens
Speaker 1: who understand the risks and take responsibility for their own cybersecurity.
Speaker 2: Well said, Yeah, the future of conflict is becoming increasingly
Speaker 2: digital and the battleground is really everywhere these days. But
Speaker 2: by staying informed being vigilant and working together, I think
Speaker 2: we can navigate this uncharted territory and create a safer
Speaker 2: and more secure digital world.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on this deep dive into cyber warfare.
Speaker 1: It's certainly been an eye opening journey, to say the least.
Speaker 1: Remember knowledge is power, and that's never been truer than
Speaker 1: in this digital age.
Speaker 2: Stay safe out there in the digital world.