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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the deep dive. Today. We're to be going

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<v Speaker 1>deep on cyber warfare. We've got a whole bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating sources lined up, academic book excerpts, some articles, reports,

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<v Speaker 1>all aimed at giving you the listener a clearer picture

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<v Speaker 1>of this digital battleground.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a very complex landscape. And one of the

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<v Speaker 2>first things you realize when you start looking into cyber

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<v Speaker 2>warfare is that even defining it is a battle in itself.

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<v Speaker 1>It really is. It's like trying to nail jelly to

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<v Speaker 1>a wall. So how do we even begin to understand

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<v Speaker 1>what is and isn't cyber warfare?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's helpful to think about it like this.

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<v Speaker 2>Imagine a spectrum of activity. On one end, you've got

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<v Speaker 2>your classics cybercrime, you know, actions that are purely motivated

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<v Speaker 2>by financial gain.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so like the Heartland payment systems breach where hackers

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<v Speaker 1>stole millions of credit.

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<v Speaker 2>Card numbers, exactly digital highst classic. But then on the

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<v Speaker 2>other end of.

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<v Speaker 1>The spectrum, we've got actual cyber warfare, where motives are

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<v Speaker 1>political or strategic.

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<v Speaker 2>You got it, think disrupting a nation's power grid or

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<v Speaker 2>stealing military secrets. Murky middle ground. That gets really.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting because you could use the same tactics for both

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<v Speaker 1>crime and warfare right exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So you could have something like website defacement. Let's say

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<v Speaker 2>a group like Team Evil might deface a website to

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<v Speaker 2>protest a government's actions.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, another group might deface a company's website to damage their.

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<v Speaker 2>Business, same action, different goals.

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<v Speaker 1>So motive is key, But how do you prove intent

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<v Speaker 1>when everybody's hiding behind keyboards in fake IP addresses? It

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<v Speaker 1>seems like pinning down responsibility would be almost.

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<v Speaker 2>Impossible, And that's the whole challenge of plausible deniability. It's

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<v Speaker 2>like leaving a threatening note, but you're wearing gloves and

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<v Speaker 2>you're disguising your handwriting.

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<v Speaker 1>Nobody would know who did it, right, And.

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<v Speaker 2>That's how states can use intermediaries or mask their digital footprints.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes it really hard to say definitively, this is

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<v Speaker 2>who did it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a digital who doing it, Isn't it? No wonder?

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<v Speaker 1>It's so hard to figure out the rules of engagement

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to cyber warfare, like is a cyber

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<v Speaker 1>attack an active war? When is a military response justified? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>I think the two thousand and eight war between Russia

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<v Speaker 2>and Georgia really kind of brought this to lay.

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<v Speaker 1>Right Now, you had actual tanks rolling.

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<v Speaker 2>In, but at the same time you have this massive

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<v Speaker 2>wave of cyber attacks that hit Georgian government websites, so.

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<v Speaker 1>In chaos and confusion totally.

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<v Speaker 2>And while Russia denied any involvement, they obviously benefited from

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<v Speaker 2>the disruption.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a sneak attack but for the digital age, right, and.

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<v Speaker 2>It really exposed a huge gap in international law. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>traditional rules of warfare were written for a world of

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<v Speaker 2>bombs and bullets, not bits and bites playing.

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<v Speaker 1>Catch up big time. So we've got this shadowy world

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<v Speaker 1>where the lines between crime and warfare are blurred. Attribution

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<v Speaker 1>is a nightmare, and the rule book is basically still

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<v Speaker 1>being written. But who are the players in this digital arena.

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<v Speaker 1>It can't just be governments, right, absolutely not.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a very diverse cast of characters. We've got non

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<v Speaker 2>state actors. Could be activests like Team Evil or cyber

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<v Speaker 2>criminals just out to make a quick buck.

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<v Speaker 1>Some are driven by ideology, some by cold.

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<v Speaker 2>Hard cash totally, and the skill level varies widely as well.

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<v Speaker 2>So you have your sort of script kitties who are

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<v Speaker 2>using pre made hacking tools, so.

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<v Speaker 1>Like someone trying to bake a soouf flea out.

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<v Speaker 2>Of a box precisely. But then you have these highly

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<v Speaker 2>skilled programmers who can create sophisticated malware.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, they're like the master chefs of the digital underworld.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then lurking in the shadows, you have your

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<v Speaker 2>state sponsored hackers, you know, the elite forces of cyber warfare.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so these are government backed teams YEP, with.

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<v Speaker 2>The resources and training to conduct really sophisticated attacks, everything

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<v Speaker 2>from stealing state secrets to disrupting critical infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a digital arms race with governments constantly trying

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<v Speaker 1>to outdo each other.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. But the thing that's really frightening is that you

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<v Speaker 2>don't need a government budget to play in this game.

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<v Speaker 1>You're talking about things like the configure worm configer.

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<v Speaker 2>It infected millions of computers all over the world, including

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<v Speaker 2>government systems, critical infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 1>The worm that just won't die to this day.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't know for or who created it, or what

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<v Speaker 2>their goal was. It's a stark reminder that anyone with

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<v Speaker 2>a keyboard and an Internet connection can be a force

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<v Speaker 2>to be reckoned with in cyber warfare.

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<v Speaker 1>Which brings us to another fascinating case, ghost Net. It

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<v Speaker 1>sounds like something straight out of a spy movie.

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<v Speaker 2>It does, right. This Chinese espionage ring infiltrated over one

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<v Speaker 2>thousand computers in over one hundred countries.

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<v Speaker 1>We're talking embassies, government offices.

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<v Speaker 2>Even the Dalai Lama's office was compromised. They did it

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<v Speaker 2>all through social engineering.

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<v Speaker 1>Hold on, So they tricked people into compromising their own systems,

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<v Speaker 1>like a digital trojan horse exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So they'd send very targeted emails, sometimes with malicious attachments,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes with links. Someone in the Dali Lama's office clicked

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<v Speaker 2>on a link that seemed harmless enough.

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<v Speaker 1>But they were actually installing malware that gave the attackers

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<v Speaker 1>full access to their computer. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>It just shows that the human element is still the

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<v Speaker 2>weakest link in the cybersecurity chain.

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<v Speaker 1>So that means that you, the listener, are a potential target.

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<v Speaker 1>Think about the information share online, the links you click.

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<v Speaker 1>You could be giving an attack or a backdoor into

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<v Speaker 1>your life without even realizing it. Okay, so we've met

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<v Speaker 1>the players. Now let's talk tactics. What are some of

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<v Speaker 1>the weapons in their digital arsenal?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? A classic one is the denial of service attack.

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<v Speaker 2>The d DOS attack basically flooding a website with so

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<v Speaker 2>much traffic that it crashes, preventing legitimate users from accessing it.

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<v Speaker 1>Like those attacks on Estonia back in two thousand and seven.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly Estonian government websites, media websites, they were all knocked offline,

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<v Speaker 2>crippling their ability to communicate.

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<v Speaker 1>Is a real wake up call to the world.

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<v Speaker 2>And while Russia denied involvement, it had all the hallmarks

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<v Speaker 2>of a state sponsored attack.

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<v Speaker 1>Clausible deniability strikes again. But d DOS attacks are just

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<v Speaker 1>one tool in the cyber warfare playbook. There's also website defacement,

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<v Speaker 1>which we talked about before.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like Team Evil replacing website content with their anti

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<v Speaker 2>Israel messages.

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<v Speaker 1>More symbolic than destructive, but still disruptive.

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<v Speaker 2>You've also got social engineering, like in the ghost net case.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course there's malware.

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<v Speaker 1>Our old friend, the configureworm.

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<v Speaker 2>Configer is a prime example. But malware comes in all

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<v Speaker 2>shapes and sizes. Some malware is designed to steal data,

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<v Speaker 2>some to spy on your activity, some can even cause

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<v Speaker 2>physical damage.

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<v Speaker 1>And then you have the ultimate cyber weapon, yeah, the

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<v Speaker 1>zero day exploit.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, yes, the holy grail for hackers. That's where an

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<v Speaker 2>attacker finds a vulnerability in a piece of software that

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<v Speaker 2>the developers don't even know about yet.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's like having a master key that can open

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<v Speaker 1>any door. I can see why those are so valuable, Exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>A zero day attack can be incredibly effective because there's

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<v Speaker 2>no patch, there's no defense against it. Nations will often

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<v Speaker 2>hoard these vulnerabilities, you know, use them very sparingly, because

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<v Speaker 2>once they're discovered and patched, they lose their effectiveness.

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<v Speaker 1>The constant cat and mouse.

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<v Speaker 2>Game attackers finding new exploits defenders scrambling to patch them

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<v Speaker 2>before they can be used, and the stakes.

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<v Speaker 1>Are unbelievably high. I mean, imagine a zero day exploit

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<v Speaker 1>that could shut down a power grid or disrupt air

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<v Speaker 1>traffic control.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a chilling thought. So we've talked about players and tactics,

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<v Speaker 2>but let's get back to that digital fog of war.

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<v Speaker 2>How do investigators even begin to unravel these attacks and

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<v Speaker 2>figure out who's really behind them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's like detective work, but in the digital age.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a great way to put it. So you have

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<v Speaker 2>these forensic experts analyzing network traffic. They're examining the malware

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<v Speaker 2>code looking for unique signatures, trying to track down domain registrations,

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<v Speaker 2>server locations.

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<v Speaker 1>Following digital breadcrumbs exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>But attackers are getting smarter all the time, right, so they're.

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<v Speaker 1>Using things like proxy servers and botnets to cover their.

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<v Speaker 2>Tracks, which makes attribution even more difficult. So even with

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<v Speaker 2>all the high tech tools at their disposal, it's still

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<v Speaker 2>incredibly challenging to say with one hundred percent certainty, this

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<v Speaker 2>is who did it.

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<v Speaker 1>So take the DDAs attacks on South Korea and the

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<v Speaker 1>US back in two thousand and nine.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, Initially everyone thought it was North Korea, but

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<v Speaker 2>once they started digging deeper, it turned out to be

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<v Speaker 2>much more complicated. The attack actually seemed to originate in Miami.

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<v Speaker 2>It was routed through the UK, controlling servers in multiple countries,

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<v Speaker 2>which then commanded a whole botnet that actually launched the attacks.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a digital shell game, it really is.

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<v Speaker 2>It shows that even when we think we have a suspect,

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<v Speaker 2>there's often more to the story than meets the eye,

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<v Speaker 2>and all.

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<v Speaker 1>That uncertainty makes responding to cyber attacks incredibly difficult.

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<v Speaker 2>So what do you do when you come under digital fire?

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<v Speaker 2>What's the playbook?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I imagine responses can range from diplomatic pressure and

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<v Speaker 1>sanctions to maybe developing our own offensive cyber capabilities.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, but that raises a whole other set of questions.

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<v Speaker 2>What are the ethical implications? What about the legal concerns?

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<v Speaker 2>What if we misidentify the attacker and we retaliate against

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<v Speaker 2>the wrong country.

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<v Speaker 1>We could end up triggering a real world conflict exactly?

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<v Speaker 2>And who's to say things won't spiral out of control.

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<v Speaker 2>One cyber attack leads to another, and before you know it,

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<v Speaker 2>we're tumbling down a very dangerous path.

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<v Speaker 1>The lack of clear rules and the potential for miscalculation

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<v Speaker 1>makes responding to cyber attacks in incredibly complex.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely so, where does all of this leave us. We're

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<v Speaker 2>living in a world where the line between physical and

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<v Speaker 2>digital battlefields is blurring, the rules are constantly evolving, and

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<v Speaker 2>the stakes are incredibly high. And as we'll explore in

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<v Speaker 2>the next part of our deep dive, the future of

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<v Speaker 2>cyber warfare is evolving in ways that are both fascinating

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<v Speaker 2>and frightening.

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<v Speaker 1>Buckle up, it's going to be a wild ride. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>back to our deep dive into cyber warfare.

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<v Speaker 2>Where we left off kind of pondering the implications of

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<v Speaker 2>a world where those lines between the physical and the

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<v Speaker 2>digital battlefields are blurring.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And you know, it almost feels like we're stepping

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<v Speaker 1>out of the battlefields and into a science fiction novel

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<v Speaker 1>because now we're facing the rise of AI in cyber warfare.

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<v Speaker 2>AI. Yeah, it's a game changer for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>So give us the outlook good, bad, ugly?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, think about this a cybersecurity force that never sleeps.

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<v Speaker 2>It can analyze mountains of data in the blink of

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<v Speaker 2>an eye and spot threats before they even materialize. That's

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<v Speaker 2>the potential upside of AI when it comes to defense.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's like having an army of superpowered security guards

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<v Speaker 1>constantly patrolling our digital borders exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>AI can sift through these massive amounts of data to

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<v Speaker 2>tech threats, respond to them way faster than any human

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<v Speaker 2>ever could. It could be a game changer in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of defending against these attacks.

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<v Speaker 1>That sounds promising, But I have a feeling there's a

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<v Speaker 1>flip side to this AI coin.

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<v Speaker 2>There always is, right, So those same capabilities that make

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<v Speaker 2>AI so powerful for defense can also be weaponized.

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<v Speaker 1>So what are we talking about?

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<v Speaker 2>AI powered malware that learns and adapts to our defenses

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<v Speaker 2>becoming more sophisticated with every single attack, or AI systems

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<v Speaker 2>churning out incredibly convincing fake news and propaganda.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh great, Now we not only have to worry about

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<v Speaker 1>hackers and government agents, but now we have to worry

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<v Speaker 1>about rogue AI spreading disinformation and chaos.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a real concern. And then there's the question

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<v Speaker 2>of autonomous weapons.

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<v Speaker 1>Hold on, are we talking about like Skynet here killer

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<v Speaker 1>robots going row?

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<v Speaker 2>Not quite, but we are talking about cyber weapons that

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<v Speaker 2>are capable of operating independently without any human intervention.

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<v Speaker 1>So that raises some serious questions. Right about accountability?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely? So who's responsible when an AI launches an attack?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it the programmer, the government that deployed it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a real moral and legal minefield. And what

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<v Speaker 1>about unintended consequences? Is there a chance that an autonomous

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<v Speaker 1>cyber weapon could misinterpret its programming or encounter a situation

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<v Speaker 1>that it wasn't designed to handle.

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<v Speaker 2>It's definitely possible. That's why the development and deployment of

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<v Speaker 2>these autonomous cyber weapons needs to be approached with extreme caution.

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<v Speaker 2>But even if we put AI aside for a moment,

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<v Speaker 2>another major concern is the increasing vulnerability of critical infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're talking about things like power grids, transportation systems,

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<v Speaker 1>financial networks.

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<v Speaker 2>The systems that keep society running. And the problem is

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of these systems were designed before cybersecurity was

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<v Speaker 2>even really a thing, so.

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<v Speaker 1>They're like old houses with flimsy locksading for someone to

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<v Speaker 1>break in.

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<v Speaker 2>And the consequences of a successful attack on critical infrastructure

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<v Speaker 2>could be absolutely devastating, widespread blackouts, economic chaos, we could

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<v Speaker 2>even see loss of life.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a chilling thought. And it's not just nation states

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<v Speaker 1>that we have.

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<v Speaker 2>To worry about, right right, Terrorist organizations are increasingly turning

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<v Speaker 2>to cyber warfare tactics.

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<v Speaker 1>So are we saying groups like ISIS could potentially launch

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<v Speaker 1>cyber attacks to disrupt Western societies.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a real possibility, and they may not have the

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<v Speaker 2>resources of a nation state, but they can still inflict

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<v Speaker 2>significant damage. And remember, attribution is difficult. A terrorist group

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<v Speaker 2>could launch an attack and it might take months to

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<v Speaker 2>figure out who was responsible.

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<v Speaker 1>So it sounds like the cyber battlefield of the future

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be pretty complex. We've got AI powered attacks,

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<v Speaker 1>vulnerable infrastructure, terrorist groups getting in on the action. How

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<v Speaker 1>are policymakers even supposed to wrap their heads around all

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<v Speaker 1>of this?

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<v Speaker 2>That's a million dollar question and there's no easy answer.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think one crucial step is to move away

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<v Speaker 2>from this siloed approach to cybersecurity siloads.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you mean?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, right now, we tend to think about cyber threats

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<v Speaker 2>in these separate categories. You know, we've got cybercrime, we've

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<v Speaker 2>got cyber espionage, we've got cyber warfare, right, But in reality,

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<v Speaker 2>these things are all interconnected.

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<v Speaker 1>So an attack that starts out as cybercrime could escalate

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<v Speaker 1>into cyber warfare, or maybe a cyber espionage operation could

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<v Speaker 1>be used to gather intelligence for a future cyber attack.

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<v Speaker 2>It's all part of the same web, right, And if

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to effectively defend ourselves, we need to start

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about cybersecurity as one unified challenge.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so how do we do that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we need to break down those barriers between government agencies,

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<v Speaker 2>private companies, international organizations.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's about sharing information, coordinating our efforts, developing a

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<v Speaker 1>comprehensive strategy that can adapt to this constantly shifting landscape exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's not just about technology, right, we need to

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<v Speaker 2>invest in education and training as.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, bring people up to speedsol.

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<v Speaker 2>Cultivate a workforce that really understands how cyber warfare works

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<v Speaker 2>and can defend our systems against these increasingly sophisticated attacks.

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<v Speaker 1>It sounds like we need a whole of society approach

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<v Speaker 1>to this, everyone from government agencies to private businesses, even

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<v Speaker 1>individual citizens.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we all have a part to play. We need

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<v Speaker 2>to be aware of the threat, understand our role in cybersecurity,

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<v Speaker 2>and work together to protect our digital world. The future

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<v Speaker 2>of cyber warfare is uncertain, but one thing is for sure,

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to be a wild ride. Welcome back to

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<v Speaker 2>the deep dive where we've been kind of, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>really digging into this complex and evolving landscape of cyber warfare.

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<v Speaker 1>And it really is a global issue, isn't it. Cyber

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<v Speaker 1>attacks they don't respect national borders.

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<v Speaker 2>No, they don't.

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<v Speaker 1>So it seems like international cooperation is absolutely key when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to tackling this threat.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. It's like trying to contain a wildfire, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>spreading across multiple countries. You need everyone working together if

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<v Speaker 2>you want to put it out.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so what does international cooperation in cyber warfare actually

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<v Speaker 1>look like in practice. Are we talking about treaties, global

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<v Speaker 1>cyber police force? What are we talking about?

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<v Speaker 2>It's definitely complicated. I mean there have been some attempts

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<v Speaker 2>to establish some international norms and agreements, but progress has

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<v Speaker 2>been slow.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I can imagine getting all the countries in the

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<v Speaker 1>world to agree on anything, let alone something as complex

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<v Speaker 1>as cyber warfare.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like hurting cats.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly, hurting digital cats.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know it's not impossible. For example, the UN

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<v Speaker 2>has been working on this set of norms for responsible

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<v Speaker 2>state behavior in cyberspace, so.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a digital Geneva convention.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a good way to put it. Yeah, it's aimed

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<v Speaker 2>at preventing conflict, promoting stability, protecting critical infrastructure online.

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<v Speaker 1>A Digital Geneva convention. I like that. But what about enforcement?

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<v Speaker 1>How do you hold countries accountable if they violate these norms.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean it's not like we have a global cyber

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<v Speaker 1>police force ready to swoop in and arrest the bad guys.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Enforcement is the tricky part. No easy answer right now.

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<v Speaker 2>It's really about diplomacy and international pressure. So you're trying

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<v Speaker 2>to shame countries that engage in irresponsible behavior, maybe impost sanctions.

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<v Speaker 2>You want to make it clear that there will be

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<v Speaker 2>consequences for their actions.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a digital game of diplomacy, using carrots and

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<v Speaker 1>sticks to encourage the good behavior and discourage the bad actors.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly. We're also starting to see these regional partnerships and

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<v Speaker 2>alliances focused on cybersecurity, like NATO has their Cyber Defense

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<v Speaker 2>Center of Excellence.

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<v Speaker 1>So basically, countries are teaming up to share information, coordinate

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<v Speaker 1>their defenses, have each other's.

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<v Speaker 2>Backs, strengthen numbers. Right by working together, countries can pool

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<v Speaker 2>their resources, share their expertise and intelligence, create a more

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<v Speaker 2>robust cyber defense network.

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<v Speaker 1>So international cooperations obviously super important. What about individual responsibility?

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<v Speaker 1>What can we as everyday internet users do to protect ourselves?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, that's a great question and it's something that

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<v Speaker 2>we should all be thinking about.

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<v Speaker 1>Because we don't have control over what nation states terrorist

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<v Speaker 1>groups are.

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<v Speaker 2>Doing, right, but we can take steps to make ourselves

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<v Speaker 2>less vulnerable to attacks.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's all about being cyber aware, practicing good digital

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<v Speaker 1>hygiene exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Be mindful of what you're sharing online. Think twice before

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<v Speaker 2>you click on any suspicious links or opening attachments from

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<v Speaker 2>senders that you don't recognize. Treat your passwords like they're

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<v Speaker 2>the keys to your digital kingdom.

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<v Speaker 1>Protect them absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>Strong passwords, two factor authentication, make sure your software is

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<v Speaker 2>up to date.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all those things that we hear about, but sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>we let slide.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's not just about the technical stuff. It's also

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<v Speaker 2>about thinking critically. You know, don't fall for phishing scams,

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<v Speaker 2>Question the information that you see online. Don't believe everything you.

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<v Speaker 1>Read, because in this world of cyber warfare, information can

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<v Speaker 1>be a weapon.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly. We need to be much more discerning consumers of information.

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<v Speaker 2>Double check your sources, look for signs of manipulation. Don't

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<v Speaker 2>be a pawn in someone else's game.

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<v Speaker 1>So as we kind of wrap up our deep dive

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<v Speaker 1>into the world of cyber warfare, it seems like the

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<v Speaker 1>key takeaway is that it's a complex threat that requires

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<v Speaker 1>a multi pronged approach. We need strong defenses at the

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<v Speaker 1>national and international level, but we also need informed citizens

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<v Speaker 1>who understand the risks and take responsibility for their own cybersecurity.

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<v Speaker 2>Well said, Yeah, the future of conflict is becoming increasingly

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<v Speaker 2>digital and the battleground is really everywhere these days. But

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<v Speaker 2>by staying informed being vigilant and working together, I think

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<v Speaker 2>we can navigate this uncharted territory and create a safer

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<v Speaker 2>and more secure digital world.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us on this deep dive into cyber warfare.

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<v Speaker 1>It's certainly been an eye opening journey, to say the least.

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<v Speaker 1>Remember knowledge is power, and that's never been truer than

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<v Speaker 1>in this digital age.

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<v Speaker 2>Stay safe out there in the digital world.