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Speaker 1: It's not that we want to advocate for violence, but

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it is true that after World War Two, violence was

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in some ways eradicated from the public sphere in every way.

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And you know, we for most modern people wouldn't understand

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that the one hundred years ago police would not be

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involved in let's say, home disputes, like would not be

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involved in family squabbles, in family fights. You know that

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you were allowed to have a duel between two men

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and to kill each other, and it would be and

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you would not go to jail because you had agreed

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to have a duel. All these things. You know, there

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is a way in which violence was far more organically

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integrated into society. It doesn't mean we're advocating for it,

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but like you said, if you suppress it completely in

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every single way, and then you come to a point

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where you say things like you know, words are violence

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and or silence is violence. Can you imagine it's like

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not just words but also silence, silence is violence. Then

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you are asking for it, like in someonays, you're asking

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for what's happened. And so it comes to a point

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if you equalize everything into violence and that words are

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violence and opinions are violence, then shooting Charlie Kirk is

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just it's just like one for one, right, It's like

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violence for violence. You know, you want to speak bad words,

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then we're gonna shoot you. And that is actually it's

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at the same level because it's all violence. You know,

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violence should be answered with violence. So yeah, there is.

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And so I think we are going to see I mean,

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I really do. It seems like the war is coming.

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It seems like that's at this point inevitable. I don't.

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I wish I could say it isn't, but people seem

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to be hungry for it. So this is Jonathan Show.

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Welcome to the Symbolic World. Hello everyone, we are finally

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announcing our Paradiso class. We have done two already. We

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have the Inferno, we have the Purgatory, and now we

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are moving to Paradise. That is right.

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Speaker 2: Dante himself says Inferno that we prefer Hell to Paradise,

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and similarly, most of us prefer to read Inferno. But

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when we come to reading Parodiso, we're very confused. So

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we're going to be actually taking you through that poem

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line by line like we did with Inferno and Purgatorio,

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and actually looking at how Dante very carefully reconciles some

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of the contradictory traditions about the heavens in the Christian

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apocalyptic tradition and does that through the persons of the saints.

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Speaker 1: And so this is truly important for us right now

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with the re enchantment of the world happening, we have

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to be able to look at those that did it,

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that did it in the most powerful way that we're

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able to reconcile the ancient pagan traditions with Christianity, with

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his modern understanding, the most modern understanding of the cosmos

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that he had. And so this is the work that

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we need to do. So we need to learn from Dante.

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So the course it starts November fifth to December third, right,

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is that what I've got five weeks, two to five

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on Wednesdays.

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Speaker 2: So the cost is going to be one hundred ninety

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dollars US. And if you don't want to watch live,

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you'll be able to follow along at your own pace.

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Just like with all of our courses. You'll have access

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to lecture, recording, slides, additional readings, and you can still

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ask questions and interact with your fellow classmates in our

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circle forums.

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Speaker 1: And so join us. After all of this suffering through

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Inferno and Purgatorio, the symbolic world finally goes to heaven. Yeah,

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join us.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to Catholic Unscripted on Catherine Bennett Clamp

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and we're delighted to be joined by a very familiar

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face to all of you, I'm sure, Jonathan Pajau, You're

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very welcome.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's great to be with you.

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Speaker 3: It's good to have you here. We were just talking

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before we started recording about the recent assassination I suppose

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you'd say, of Charlie Kirk, and then the things going

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on over here in the UK was to unite the

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Kingdom rally, and you were expressing a kind of change

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of thought around things after those events. Do you want

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to tell us a bit more about that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I we know, I wasn't a particularly

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a fan of Charlie Kirk. I mean, I wasn't against him.

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I just didn't. It wasn't. He wasn't that much on

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my radar. I knew of him. I was actually planning

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my team and then we're planning that I would be

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on his podcast in the in the next few months.

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But when he was shot. I mean, obviously was shocking,

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Like it was really it was shocking because it was

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clearly a public execution. It was done on purpose, kind

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of like how they tried to kill Trump and you know,

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to do make a spectacle of it. But it was

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mostly the reaction of people that really shocked us and

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shocked me, because people that I know, people, you know,

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friends of my daughter's, people around us. Some people celebrated,

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some people dismissed it as irrelevant, and you know, and

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so I felt like it really revealed something about the

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state of the world that although I kind of knew

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intuitively that I that I started to see more clearly.

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You know, some friends of mine went to the vigil

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in New York. It was actually Winston Marshall. He went

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to the vigil in New York and he said, you know,

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it was just a few days after he died, for

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goodness sake, and he said, the vigil was infiltrated by

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Antifa people wearing all black and you know, grinning and

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laughing in their faces and just putting their cameras up

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in people's faces and you know, moving around like little

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demons through the crowd, just giggling and laughing, and you

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know this is these are very I mean, like I said,

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it reveals where we are uh in the world, and

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in some ways how I think that the culture war

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has become a little more hot. So all of a sudden,

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you're asking questions about people in your church except people

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in my church. You know, what do I do? How

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do I do this? How do I now go back?

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And I understand that there are lies that are said

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about him, and so that some people believe that he

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was something that he Wasn't I agree with that, and

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I didn't agree with all his positions obviously, But yeah,

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but I don't know how to how to deal with

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the fact that that then it's not a big deal

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that someone like that was assassinated in public. I don't

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know how. I don't know how to deal with that.

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Speaker 4: The thing I found about it was that there were

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people who are new friends who were kind of making

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out like he deserved it. Yeah, but I would do

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it in a way that were they seem to be

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unconscious of what they were actually saying. You know, they

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were putting it across as a completely rational position, And

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it wasn't until you pointed out that you know what

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you're doing here is saying that it's justified that this

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guy was shot dead on a campus in front of

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thousands of people in his family. And then they were like, oh, no,

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I didn't really mean that, but that's like literally he said,

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I found that extraordinary. That that has crept into people's thinking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, people tend to think like, well, because of

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his political positions, he had it coming kind of thing,

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which is that you know, okay, that is that is

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obviously we've now tipped into another level here of political discussion,

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and it means that, you know, and it's weird because no,

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violence has always been part of politics. It's not like

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it's not like this is new that there actually in

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the modern age, let's say, since World War Two, the

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idea that violence should not be a part of politics

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has actually been a part of the peace, the great

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peace that we've enjoyed. And so if we're going to

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return to the idea that that violence is a part

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of internal politics, obviously we still kind of believe that

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violence is a part of external politics, right, that is,

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dealing with people that are you know, enemy armies or

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people that are breaking the laws. But if it's going

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to be part of internal politics. I mean, we are

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obviously heading towards very dark times. So now we have

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I mean, you know, let's say, hundreds of years ago,

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you know, people in the Parliament getting into a fistfight.

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You know, these things happened not all the time, but

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they haven't happened quite often. But now the means of

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violence have increased so much that to move down that

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road is to invoke far greater consequences.

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Speaker 3: Do you think So it's interesting, isn't it. I agree

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with that ththing you've said, and in fact I was.

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I faced criticism when I wrote an article for our

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website saying that there were people trying to make a

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saint of a young woman in Dundee in Scotland who

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she was fourteen, and she was out and about in

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the middle of town. We don't really know the full story,

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but someone was filming her and she pulled an axe

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out of one pocket and a twelve inch blade out

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of the other. And they've made memes about her saying

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she's like Joan of Arc, She's brilliant. She's getting rid

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of the pedophile immigrants single handedly, just like Joan of Arc.

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And I thought, I said to you, did that Mark,

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I said, what, what's going on? A fourteen year old

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girl is wielding an axe and that's somehow we've lost

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sight of what's actually happened there. Why are we said

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I understand people saying, no, we're not celebrating the acts,

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we're celebrating the fact that she's a young Yeah, but

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I just thought, now we have to be able to

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say this is awful, this is awful, that her doing

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that is an awful thing. She shouldn't have done that.

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Irrespective of what other problems there are in the world.

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Can we not say wielding an axe is not a

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great thing?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's obviously it's it's complicated. Everything has

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become so complicated there. I think there is room to

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defend yourself if you're being attacked by people, you know,

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I think that that's completely that's complete, legitimate. It's hard

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to know exactly what was going on in that particular situation.

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I think it's okay to defend yourself. But like you said,

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I think that it's general in general, the jubilation at

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the return of violence. I think that's a good way

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of understanding what's happening and it's not. And I think

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the reason why that Charlie Kirk event was so marked

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because it's you know, it's very symbolic in the rights

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in the sense that it was in public, it was

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done like as a kind of public execution. But I

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think in general, we're seeing, with what I call the

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breakdown of the World War two consensus, I guess you

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could call it, we're seeing a return of violence and

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they kind of return of jubilation towards violence. You know,

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we basically now all all so many people accepted that, yeah,

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we're gonna have World War three. Each the question of time,

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when is World War three gonna happen? Yeah, they'll probably

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be nuclear nuclear war. But you know, it's just how

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it is in the eighties. And remember the eighties and nineties.

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I mean, we did everything to stop a nuclear war.

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We did like anything we could do to avoid nuclear exchange,

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we would. But now it's like, you know, it might happen,

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like you know, dirty bomb in France, like that might happen.

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You know, you just have to be kind of ready

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for it.

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Speaker 3: There's a couple of times you've linked this to the

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post World War two consensus. Is there an element in

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which I don't really know how to explain this. But

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the establishment of the un, the the to the Holocaust

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does the most evil thing that could ever happen, that

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can never happen again. That there was there was a

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sort of enforce tyrannical and artificial suppression of any violence.

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That now it's it's erupting organically because the suppression was

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almost It's not that I'm advocating for violence, but that

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that was like, right, we are now this is who

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is it that wrote the end of history? And this

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is yeah, year zero, let's begin. But that's not the reality.

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That's not true.

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Speaker 1: No, I think that's right, And this is tricky things

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to talk about because obviously, like you said, it's not

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that we want to advocate for violence, but it is

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true that after World War Two, violence was in some

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ways eradicated from the public sphere in every way. And

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you know, we for most modern people wouldn't understand that

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one hundred years ago, police would not be involved in

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let's say, home disputes, like would not be involved in

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family squabbles, in family fights. You know that you were

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allowed to have a duel between two men and to

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kill each other, and it would be and you would

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not go to jail because you had agreed to have

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a duel all these things. You know, there is a

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way in which violence was far more organically integrated into society.

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It doesn't mean we're advocating for it, but like you said,

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if you suppress it completely in every single way, and

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then you come to a point where you say things like,

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you know, words are violence and or silence is violence.

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Can you imagine it's like not just words but also silence,

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silence is violence. Then you are asking for it, like

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in someoneys, you're asking for what's happened. And so it

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comes to a point if you equalized everything into violence

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and that words are violence and opinions are violence, then

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shooting Charlie Kirk is just it's just like one for one, right,

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it's like violence for Violet. You know, you want to

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speak bad words, then we're going to shoot you. And

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that is actually it's at the same level because it's

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all violence. You know, violence should be answered with violence.

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So yeah, there is. And so I think we are

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going to see I mean, I really do. It seems

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like the war is coming. It seems like that's at

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this point inevitable. I don't I wish I could say

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it isn't, but people seem to be hungry for it, so,

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you know, and it's the same, you know, and it's interesting.

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I mean, it's definitely related to World War two consensus,

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you know, because some things that were completely unacceptable. I mean,

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it's related to the Israel Gaza situation. Like I don't

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want to get too political, but you know, in some ways,

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the state of Israel is the World War two consensus state, right,

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it is this these group of people that have been

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without a state for thousands of years, that have been

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in the margins of society, that are finally given a chance,

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you know, to have their own state. But then what

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happens when that state now starts to act in the

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ways that are forbidden in the World War two consensus?

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How do you deal with that? And so it's like

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it's making everything break, like it's making everything crack because

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we have no frame to deal with this. And you know,

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that's why it's especially the right. It's making the Conservative

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Party in the US, the Republican Party in the US,

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it's just splitting it and it's like cutting it up

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because it's it's making its creating incoherence, and how we

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how do we deal with this now.

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Speaker 4: It's so complicated, frightens made. To be honest, Yes, that

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there's some incredible symbolism about the fact that this tension

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exists in that particular part of the world. Of course,

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you know, I find that fascinating.

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Speaker 1: It's the center of the world. It's been since it's

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been since thirty three, you know, it's been since the

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the the death of Christ, and it still is no

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matter what you say, it's it's still the center of

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the world. So and it's going to be. It's going

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to be the center of the world until the escaton,

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and you can't help that. So it's it's obviously that

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in some ways the most symbolic image of what's happening

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everywhere is being crunched into the Holy Land and is

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manifesting itself in the Holy Land. A lot of people

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say they always wonder, like, how is this this Jerusalem?

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How is it the city of peace? If it's a

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place of constant, constant conflict, And you have to really

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understand it as in some ways the heart of the world.

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And you know Christ talks about how you know, violence

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also comes out of the heart, right, and so if

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it becomes an image of the world, Like if the

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idea that Jerusalem is constantly in this state of uneasiness

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is also an image of how the world is in

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the state of uneasiness, you know. It's so it's like

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a microcosm of the state of things things.

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Speaker 3: I want to I want to move on a little

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and talk about the idea of enchantment. For a long

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time now, we've heard about re enchantment. I think I

302
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think I've had you know, you speak about re enchantment.

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We've spoken about it. Rod Drea's written Living in Wonder,

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and there's lots of talk about re enchantment. And as Catholics,

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we've quite liked this because we see, especially over here,

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the Protestant Reformation as kind of stripping away the supernatural,

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and so when we hear enchantment, we think bringing back

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all the kind of the supernatural and our lady. And

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but we've just had a conversation with a professor over here,

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Jacob Phillips, and he's brilliant in what he says, and

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he says we should have a little less enchantment and

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a bit more disenchantment.

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Speaker 1: I would say a few things that I would say.

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The idea that that Christianity is in itself kind of disenchairming.

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I think that's that's kind of hardwash. I don't think

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that's true at all. The idea that the principalities are

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submitted to Christ, you know, the idea that the angels,

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that all of the spiritual beings are submitted to Christ.

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That it's true, and in some ways you could say

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there is a reality which is that they become less

321
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salient to some extent because they they're submitted to Christ,

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and so they don't scream out in their own name

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the way that the ancient gods did, where you know,

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they are the gods would fight amongst themselves. That is

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something that definitely goes away, you know. But the idea

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that the world is not full of God's life and

327
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that the world is not full of divine presence, that's hagawash.

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And I hope no one ever believes that the animistic

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part right, the idea that there are that there are

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like you know, to titular spirits and and this continues

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in Christianity. But the difference is that we we participate

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in that process. You know, when when Christ says that

333
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will reign with him, it means that now the Saints

334
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are become in some ways the version of titular spirits

335
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that the ancients had, you know, the saints become the

336
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patrons of places, they become the patrons of families, the

337
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patrons of people, and in some ways they act as

338
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these these titular characters. But the difference, like you said,

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is that the Saints are all submitted to Christ absolutely

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and that they refract Christ in the world. But the

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Middle Ages was this is really a Protestant thinking. Like

342
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the idea that Judeo Christianity strips the world of its

343
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of its of its magic, or strips the world of

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it's like of its of of these these titular spirits

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or these these intelligences, I think is very Protestant and

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it I think it's also false. And I think that

347
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that's what's happening now, is that at some point now

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people are seeing that it's false. But we've had we've

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had hundreds of years of removing the language and wisdom

350
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that we had to deal with this reality, and now

351
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it's coming back. And you're right, it is coming back

352
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mostly pagan because we don't It's like it's as if

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we're discovering these things for the new time, for the

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first time. We're like that, We're like that teenage sorcerer

355
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that finds a grimoire and doesn't know what he's doing

356
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and opens it up and it's like, oh, look at this,

357
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and they're like pointed to all these things. Uh, and

358
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now they become completely taken over, broken down. You know,

359
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people are doing psychedelics, they're encountering these beings, people are

360
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doing meditation, they're encountering these beings. Uh, and they just

361
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see it all as all equal because they're all they're

362
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all democrats, right, they all believe in democracy. So you know,

363
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the demons are as the same as the angels and

364
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the saints, and it's all the same. So I think

365
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that it is actually in recovering a Christian, a true

366
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Christian ontology, like a recovering Dante, and recovering that vision

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of the world that we can enter into this kind

368
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of re enchanted reality without the pitfalls of it being

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just a just a pagan resurgence. But it's going to

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be a pagan resurgence because, like I said, it's kind

371
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of too late because you have a bunch of neophyts

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that are encountering spirits and they have no idea what

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they're doing. And so.

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Speaker 4: There is an element to the fact that, you know,

375
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the conflict between Christianity and Paganism, where Christianity saved us

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from the need to believe that we were cursed or

377
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that these spirits had power over power over us. So

378
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like that, it gets confused with the the de mysticism

379
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sort of language. But there was definitely a confrontation between

380
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the pagan world and the Christian world, and it was

381
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Christianity that saved us, wasn't it from that sort of.

382
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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it really is. The difference is that one

383
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of the things that the way that the pagan principalities

384
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were dealt with is that in some ways the people

385
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would see that they had authority, but they would in

386
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some ways try to trap or propitiate or do whatever

387
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they could to to basically be on the good side

388
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of these principalities or maybe even use them to their

389
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own purposes. And so and and people were afraid, Like

390
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you said, people were afraid of these principality, but they

391
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would still propitiate them in order to get something from them.

392
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That all that is absolutely gone. I mean, nobody is

393
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afraid of Saint Peter and propitiates to him because they

394
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hope to have a little bit of the keys for

395
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themselves and to be able to unlock some things, you know,

396
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I mean except for occultist nobody does that kind of stuff.

397
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Speaker 4: Yeah, And the whole idea was wrapped up in that

398
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Chesterton quote. You know, once we've stopped believing in God,

399
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it's not that we're believing nothing, it's that we're believing anything.

400
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And we seem to be going in that way exactly

401
00:22:51,799 --> 00:22:54,960
as you've just articulated that. You know, we've got like

402
00:22:55,039 --> 00:22:57,640
crystals and angels and all this kind of stuff coming

403
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:02,599
out because people have lost that hierarchical understanding of that

404
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,240
God is above us and that there is something more

405
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important than us and that we've got a place in that,

406
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you know creation in that pathem, yeah.

407
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Speaker 1: And that Christ, as Sempaul says, you know, Christ is

408
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subjugating all the thrones are the principalities to himself, that

409
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he is the one who sits on the throne in heaven,

410
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and that all the angels and are all submitted to him,

411
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and the demons too. They just don't know it, but

412
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ultimately the entire thing is because has become submitted to him.

413
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And one of the other things that we spoke

414
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about in that conversation was about how we've just come

415
00:23:39,279 --> 00:23:41,440
out of the lot. Well, it seems not that long ago.

416
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This trust the science narrative, And that's a perfect idea

417
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of the perfect example of saying it's the science we

418
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trust and not saying, actually, the science isn't what we trust.

419
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We can trust the good that undergirds any science. So

420
00:24:00,319 --> 00:24:05,480
in medicine, you could use your medicine to heal burns victims,

421
00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:07,920
or to give women big breasts, or you can use

422
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the theory of relativity to destroy a city or to

423
00:24:13,319 --> 00:24:15,680
what is some other good thing. She says, not knowing

424
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what the theory of relativity does.

425
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Speaker 1: Is that scientist does not have the good in itself.

426
00:24:23,759 --> 00:24:28,200
It's only the means to the to power over phenomena.

427
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That's what science is.

428
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Speaker 3: So if if if if Christ isn't what animates like,

429
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,559
if I think that the argument there was, if there

430
00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:40,319
isn't that Christian understanding and we say we put all

431
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,240
of this under Christ, then it can go awry. And

432
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this this brings me to your recent guest. I think

433
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,480
you said his name is Michael Levin. I was I

434
00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:52,559
was watching your conversation with him, and you'll have to

435
00:24:52,559 --> 00:24:52,880
tell me.

436
00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:59,599
Speaker 1: His name, the other guy, and I was about.

437
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Speaker 3: Forty five minut and I was just thinking, this is insane,

438
00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:07,839
this is madness and also frightening, and he was he's

439
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,759
I think you described him as a bit of a magician.

440
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Speaker 1: Well, I mean a magician in the sense that he

441
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,400
is in some ways rediscovering vertical vertical connections to in

442
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,200
the world of science. He's he's understanding that it's not

443
00:25:20,279 --> 00:25:22,640
just a bunch of stuff that you analyze, but that

444
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:28,119
there are living patterns that embody themselves in in biological form,

445
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and that these living patterns are in some ways best

446
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understood as intelligence. Is that want something and that are

447
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that are manifesting themselves in bodies. And so what he

448
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,519
now called himself a platonist, he says that he's a

449
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,599
he's kind of I mean, he's he's a scientist, right,

450
00:25:45,599 --> 00:25:48,720
so in some ways he's grasping for words about what

451
00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:51,160
it is that he's encountering. You know, he's not like

452
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,240
a trained philosopher or theologian, and so he's seeing that

453
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these are real and that the h and that if

454
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,839
you treat the world this way, like, if you act

455
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,400
as if the world is like this and that there

456
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,880
are these wills and patterns that embody themselves in the world,

457
00:26:08,319 --> 00:26:12,799
then you could yields much more than what the kind

458
00:26:12,799 --> 00:26:17,359
of geneticist type of biologists can do and can understand.

459
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But like you said, in some ways, there in a

460
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,960
way it's frightening because it does feel like magic is

461
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,039
coming back in the world because he can manipulate forms

462
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if he's able to tap into the right purpose. So

463
00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:31,279
you could think of it. I mean, I don't want

464
00:26:31,319 --> 00:26:33,000
to say that that's what he's doing, but you know,

465
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,079
it is a little bit akin to saying, well, if

466
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,359
I know the right formulation, like if I know the

467
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,480
right spell and I speak it on a phenomena, then

468
00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:45,000
I can reorder the phenomena to my will, right, I

469
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,599
can kind of reorder the phenomena to my will. And

470
00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:50,599
there's a little bit of that going on with him

471
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because especially because he seems to think or believe in

472
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what he calls freedom of embodiment, which is that he

473
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,440
would like humans to reach the capacity to have in

474
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,079
some ways the body that they that they would want.

475
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,359
And that's why it's closer the magic because magicians use

476
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,400
angels or trapped spirits or you know, kind of download

477
00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:16,519
these these wills into the world, but always to serve

478
00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:20,160
their own will, always to increase the power to or

479
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,000
to And that's different from the Christian vision and the

480
00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:26,640
Christian ontology, which is that we believe in all that stuff, right,

481
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,440
we believe that all of that stuff is real and

482
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,200
all that stuff works. But we think that we have

483
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,079
to say that I will be done right, that we

484
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,240
have to trust that we participate in God's will in

485
00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:39,759
a way that is for our good, and that our

486
00:27:39,839 --> 00:27:43,200
will and our desire to have wings or to have

487
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,400
you know, three arms could lead us down paths that

488
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,400
would be against our own our own good. But that's

489
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,799
something that I don't think that he's still figuring out,

490
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,079
you know. And so I mean, I hope to have

491
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,200
more conversations with him. But it's that you can see

492
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,920
that it's it's stuff that he's still he's still kind

493
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,039
of struggling with. They're dealing with you.

494
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 3: It's interesting you say, it's not it's not he's not

495
00:28:06,279 --> 00:28:08,839
doing it or he's not saying this, But that's not

496
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,440
the point. It's like people who say, well, in my hands,

497
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,000
this is perfectly safe. But who's to say it's always

498
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:17,680
in your hands.

499
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's always the problem of technology is that technology

500
00:28:21,599 --> 00:28:24,240
is power. That's what the technology is power, and that

501
00:28:24,799 --> 00:28:29,640
you know if it is, whatever you whatever you develop,

502
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,000
will be used by your enemy. Like you just always

503
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,720
have to understand that, Like when Elon must says, we're

504
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,799
putting chips in your brain, but don't worry, you know,

505
00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:40,039
it's like it's me. Hey, come on, you trust Elon, right,

506
00:28:40,079 --> 00:28:43,640
it's me. And also it'll be voluntary. It's like, well,

507
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,079
you know, I'm not sure that that's how it's going

508
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,799
to end. I'm not sure that how this story is

509
00:28:47,839 --> 00:28:51,799
going to end. Yeah, h.

510
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 4: Okay, I've got a question then, Yeah, can you tell

511
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,000
one symbol, story or myth that that's most profoundly transformed

512
00:29:05,039 --> 00:29:06,359
your own life and outlook?

513
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: And why, Well, it's going to be boring because I'm

514
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,799
to say two. There's really two in some ways. There's

515
00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:20,519
the Genesis one. I mean, from let's say, from the

516
00:29:20,599 --> 00:29:24,240
Creation to Babel to the Tower of Babel. I mean,

517
00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:27,599
to me, that is the most powerful story, one of

518
00:29:27,599 --> 00:29:31,119
the most the most powerful story ever told. And it's

519
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,319
only eclipsed, like you said, by the story of Christ himself,

520
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,319
because in some ways Christ reveals some aspects of that

521
00:29:39,599 --> 00:29:43,319
creation story that we're hidden maybe in the story, and

522
00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:45,559
that he kind of opens up and you see it

523
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,680
now through the through the lens of his story. So

524
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,559
there definitely are the are the stories that I go

525
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,200
back to all the time, you know.

526
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,519
Speaker 4: The archetypes. Would you say that like embedded in those stories?

527
00:29:58,559 --> 00:30:02,640
Are they archetypal story or is there some different way

528
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,119
of looking at it in terms of truth?

529
00:30:05,119 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean, I think I think the use of

530
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,640
the word archetype is a fine word. It's been kind

531
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,160
of you could say, twisted by Yung. But Saint Gregor

532
00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:16,640
Nisa used the word archetype when he talks about the

533
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:20,920
when he talks about the pattern of the tabernacle as being,

534
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,759
in some way is the pattern of the church. You know,

535
00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:25,400
that's the idea that it's the the archetype is the pattern,

536
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,279
and then there's the embodiment of that pattern. So I

537
00:30:28,319 --> 00:30:31,680
think that for sure, especially Genesis one, that's clearly what

538
00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:34,599
that story is. It's it's the pattern of everything. It

539
00:30:34,759 --> 00:30:39,200
describes the cosmos in the best way possible, and then

540
00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:43,480
that that pattern the thing. The problem with the pattern

541
00:30:43,519 --> 00:30:46,559
is that sometimes you don't understand all its implications because

542
00:30:46,559 --> 00:30:48,880
it's so simple. You know. It's like you look at

543
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,200
a seat and you're like, well, I don't know what

544
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,279
this is. It's the dot, right, It's just it's just

545
00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:54,319
a little dot. And then you have to it has

546
00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:57,160
to embody itself in order for you to see the implications.

547
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,880
And I think the entirety of scripture is that embody

548
00:31:00,279 --> 00:31:04,559
where you are now seeing the different iterations of the

549
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,119
union of heaven and Earth happen in different ways all

550
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,519
through the Bible, and that culminates, of course in Christ

551
00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:12,960
and then finally it actually culminates in the Book of Revelation.

552
00:31:13,119 --> 00:31:16,240
And so the final image of the heavenly Jerusalem and

553
00:31:16,319 --> 00:31:20,200
the great wedding you know of of of Christ and

554
00:31:20,359 --> 00:31:25,279
the all of creation, that is the final image of

555
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,880
the the final image of the spirit of God hovering

556
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,880
above the waters. The last one is that the sea

557
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,960
has become crystal, the creation has become a city, you know,

558
00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:37,279
and it's and she's prepared like a bride for her groom,

559
00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:41,799
and and God has married his creation. You know. That's

560
00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:44,559
that's the end of that story. So it's like, you know,

561
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,920
the the Genesis one, And like I said, it's it's

562
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,319
the it's it's the greatest story. But it doesn't mean

563
00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:52,440
that it's that it's like imaginary thing. Like that's the

564
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,920
problem with the word archetypes that sometimes people think that

565
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,599
archetype means it's imaginary. It's not imaginary, it's the realist

566
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,160
story it's ever been told.

567
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's what I meant, really, like, are those

568
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,480
are those? Because we see those patterns repeated throughout scripture,

569
00:32:06,519 --> 00:32:10,079
don't we? So like the garden, the image of the garden,

570
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:15,680
and obviously after Jesus rises from the dead, we see him.

571
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,279
He's mistaken by Mary Magdalen for the gardener, isn't he?

572
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,720
And you know they meet in the garden, but he

573
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:25,559
can't be held on there's all that dimension and the

574
00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:28,160
Tree of Good and you know, the knowledge of good

575
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,720
and evil, the Tree of life and the Cross and

576
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,880
all of those things. But like that, so they're repeated

577
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,160
throughout scripture, aren't they. That's right, That's exactly right.

578
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: And not only are they're repeated throughout scripture, but they're

579
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,079
repeated throughout all the stories. So you know, the all

580
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,279
of the stories that we tell, you know, all are

581
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,119
in some ways little iterations of the Genesis one story.

582
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,480
They're playing out the implication of the Genesis one story,

583
00:32:57,759 --> 00:32:59,599
you know, and sometimes it's harder to see because we

584
00:32:59,599 --> 00:33:04,640
don't if we don't have the you could say, the

585
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,119
capacity to identify the elements. Right, if you don't understand

586
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,160
what heaven is, then you don't understand what Earth is.

587
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,359
Then it is sometimes harder to see it in other

588
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,400
stories and to realize that no, this is talking about

589
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,000
the same thing. It's just using stand ins for each other.

590
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,119
But once you start to see what it is that's

591
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,680
implied with these categories, then you realize that it's everywhere.

592
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 3: Well, this brings me to a question. Something that preoccupies

593
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,599
me is the idea of femininity and masculinity. And I'm

594
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,640
very aware. I do a lot of talks with young women.

595
00:33:39,119 --> 00:33:43,839
And I was watching your conversation with Michael Knowles. It

596
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,920
was about three years ago in fact, but I watched

597
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,359
it again recently, and in it, one of the things

598
00:33:50,359 --> 00:33:54,519
he says is you were talking about symbols and pointing

599
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,480
symbolism and symbols, and he said, if gender expression is

600
00:33:58,519 --> 00:34:04,960
the symbol, that which is being symbolized is biological sex.

601
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,639
And I've been thinking, I think that's wrong. So I

602
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:13,840
said male. No, I thought, if male and female are

603
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,280
the symbols, this is what I prompted me to think

604
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,599
from what he said, which I agree was wrong. I said,

605
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,079
if male and female are the symbols, that which is

606
00:34:21,119 --> 00:34:25,800
symbolized is femininity and masculinity, which are cosmic principles of

607
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,360
all creation. So it is, in fact, just give me

608
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,679
your thoughts on this, it is in fact biological sex

609
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:37,199
that is the symbol. And so we can't get to

610
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,280
a point of saying. So then I started thinking about

611
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,079
the mess we're in, and I thought, we can't get

612
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:44,039
to a point of saying the symbols have no meaning,

613
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,199
which is where we've got to unless we destroy the

614
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,960
thing that they symbolize. And so then I know this

615
00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:53,800
might seem like a shift, but it makes sense to me,

616
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,400
and you spoke about it. We get into eucharistic theology.

617
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,440
So the thing that marriage them aizes has been destroyed.

618
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,000
So is there any wonder that marriage has been destroyed?

619
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,639
So I took Michael Knowles's point and thought, no, I'm

620
00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:10,599
not sure he's right there. I think it's you know,

621
00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:13,320
I think he's he's hung up.

622
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 1: On the way around, the way around. Yeah, but it's

623
00:35:17,639 --> 00:35:21,320
to be generous to Michael. I think that sometimes we

624
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,920
get tripped up with language, you know, of course recording.

625
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,480
And one of the things that one of the ways

626
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,159
of understanding is that there there's the the symbol is

627
00:35:33,079 --> 00:35:36,880
the ground in some ways, right, because you don't encounter

628
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,800
the pattern without its embodiment. The pattern is useless, like

629
00:35:43,639 --> 00:35:46,119
now it's useless. But it's like we always think, you know,

630
00:35:46,159 --> 00:35:48,320
it's like, oh, you just want to go to heaven. Actually, no,

631
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,079
you want you don't want to go to heaven, like

632
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,119
I mean, it's not that great to go to heaven.

633
00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:56,039
What you want is the resurrection in the kingdom of heaven.

634
00:35:56,119 --> 00:35:57,920
You want the kingdom of Heaven. It's not the same

635
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,800
as heaven. It's when heaven and bodies itself in phenomena.

636
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,679
And so the embodiment is the ground. And that's why

637
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,679
I understand what he's saying is like biological sex is

638
00:36:09,519 --> 00:36:15,079
the thing that is the most immediate to us to experience,

639
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,000
the difference between heaven and earth, between the masculine and

640
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:24,280
the feminine, between these higher like more universal categories. And

641
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,079
therefore one of the things you can try to do

642
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,440
is you can do it both ways. Like you said,

643
00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:31,920
one is you can try to destroy the myth. You

644
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,760
can try to destroy the pattern of the relationship between

645
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,360
heaven and Earth and try to break that, invert it,

646
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,400
twist it or whatever. But the other thing you can

647
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,400
also do is to It's like kind of decapitating something.

648
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,599
You cut off the genitals, right, you you try to

649
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,320
remove the embodiment so that the pattern floats off into

650
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,800
the air. Right, you try to destroy the So like,

651
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,599
I mean, this sounds very weird. So you have a city, right,

652
00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:02,880
you have Rome, and like Rome changes, right, so we

653
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,360
have the idea of Rome. Right. The idea of Rome

654
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,559
is what holds Rome together, but it has to be

655
00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:10,320
embodied in the city. So one of the things you

656
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,760
can do is try to pervert the idea of Rome,

657
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,000
so you can destroy the city. But then the other

658
00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:16,519
thing you can do is just bomb the hell out

659
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:19,079
of Rome until there's nothing left. And then let's see

660
00:37:19,079 --> 00:37:20,800
if they can like it. Let's see if the idea

661
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,639
of Rome is gonna is going to take seed again?

662
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,519
Maybe maybe not. You know, some cities, I mean, look

663
00:37:26,559 --> 00:37:33,840
at what happened to look at what happened to to Baghdad.

664
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,400
You know, it's like you know, after the Mongols got

665
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,000
through Baghdad, well, bagh Dad. You know it never it's

666
00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:42,719
sprung up, but very little. It didn't spring up like

667
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,280
it did, you know, before the before the twelfth century.

668
00:37:48,119 --> 00:37:50,519
Speaker 3: I think we've destroyed the idea of the city. I

669
00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:52,639
think I think it's because we've destroyed the idea of

670
00:37:53,199 --> 00:37:56,280
I think it My view tends towards the idea that

671
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,599
which is why I mentioned eucharistics theology, that we've destroyed

672
00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:05,320
the idea of the real presence. I know that's the

673
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:12,679
term that's been distorted as well, so that so then

674
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,400
everything crumbles because of that. So it doesn't surprise me

675
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,559
at all that we have such chaos and incoherence, and

676
00:38:20,599 --> 00:38:22,760
that the answer then is sacramental.

677
00:38:23,639 --> 00:38:26,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see what you mean that. I think that

678
00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:30,719
for sure, the attack on the on the Eucharists, and

679
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,000
the reduction of the Eucharists first of all to something

680
00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:37,199
that was merely symbolic like that, that attempt in some

681
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:42,000
ways was, like you said, wrenching out the heart of Christianity,

682
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,760
the place where the unity of Heaven and Earth was

683
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,280
was made manifest to us in a perfect way. And yeah,

684
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,119
and then downstream from that, like you said, downstream from

685
00:38:54,119 --> 00:38:56,519
that are the suburbs. You know, downstream from that are

686
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,440
well the church. If there's no Eucharist, then the church

687
00:39:00,599 --> 00:39:02,800
is you know, it's fine, we go there to worship God,

688
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,280
but we don't need the church. Like building, the building

689
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,519
is just you know, it's just the symbol. You don't

690
00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:08,840
really need it. And it doesn't have to be in

691
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,480
the middle of the town. It can be wherever. It

692
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,000
could be in a strip mall, it could be wherever.

693
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,719
And so you keep like evolving until basically nothing means

694
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,880
anything anymore, and you just, you know, it's just flat.

695
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:20,840
Everything comes flat.

696
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,519
Speaker 4: It's really interesting that I've got some Baptist friends and

697
00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:28,559
I kind of get invited up to the church occasionally

698
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,400
need to do Yeah, well yeah, that's come to an end.

699
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:38,519
But basically, sorry.

700
00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 3: Isn't it terrifying?

701
00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 4: Yeah? So, but basically there there there's tension within that

702
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,800
community between there are people who want a sacred space

703
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:56,800
to worship that they think should be separate, dedicated, yeah, yeah.

704
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,360
And then and then there are other people who think, oh,

705
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,079
there is no thing as a holy place, and so

706
00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:03,840
they want to you know, they let the kids play

707
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,440
football in the church and you know whatever, it doesn't

708
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,960
make any difference. And you can see how that's that

709
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,960
they're building that. I mean, it's architecturally a beautiful building,

710
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,480
but it could be someone's house, it could be literally anything.

711
00:40:18,559 --> 00:40:22,199
You know, all the Christian symbolism has been removed, and

712
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,360
you can see the tension between those people who are like, well,

713
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,079
shouldn't we have a bit of Christian something that marks

714
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:30,960
it out as something set for it for God. It's

715
00:40:31,039 --> 00:40:33,800
just craziness and that is the craziness of Protestantism.

716
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's important. I think the important thing to understand

717
00:40:38,039 --> 00:40:40,519
for people who will be watching wh will have that

718
00:40:40,639 --> 00:40:45,159
tendency is to think that you you have to have

719
00:40:45,199 --> 00:40:48,920
a building, right, and so the question is what is

720
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,639
that building pointing to what is being manifested in that building,

721
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,239
and people kind of know it intitally, like they'll still

722
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,800
reach reach a limit into in the sense that they

723
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,960
wouldn't have like if they could avoid it, they wouldn't

724
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,320
have their church meeting in like a five foot basement, right,

725
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,239
Like they wouldn't be like, oh, like it's not conducive

726
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,800
to the thing we're doing, Like they wouldn't have their

727
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,679
meeting in a hallway, right, And so because it's not

728
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,159
conducive to what you're doing, it was like, well, yeah,

729
00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:22,920
well keep scaling that up, Like there are certain spaces

730
00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:26,280
that are conducive to certain purposes, that are dedicated to

731
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,119
certain purposes, just like the bathroom is dedicated for the

732
00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:31,559
things you do there, just like the bedroom is dedicated

733
00:41:31,599 --> 00:41:33,920
for things to do there, but they are also possible.

734
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,559
There's also the idea that you dedicate spaces for worshiping God.

735
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,559
And it doesn't mean that you still can't pray God

736
00:41:41,599 --> 00:41:45,480
in your bathroom or in your bedroom, but it is

737
00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:49,599
important to dedicate spaces to these purposes because it lays

738
00:41:49,639 --> 00:41:52,800
out the hierarchy of what's important. Because at first, what

739
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,199
you say, and this is obviously normal, is you say,

740
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,679
why would you just worship on Sundays, Like, you know,

741
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,639
can't you worship any day? Like why do you? Why

742
00:42:01,679 --> 00:42:03,559
do you? Why can't you? Why do you worship in church?

743
00:42:03,599 --> 00:42:06,159
Can't you worship anywhere? And it starts that way, and

744
00:42:06,199 --> 00:42:10,199
it ends with, actually, you don't worship at all, you know,

745
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,559
and you don't know that, and there's no difference for

746
00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:16,119
you between going to the mall and and going to church.

747
00:42:16,159 --> 00:42:18,840
It's all the same. And so it's like, so I

748
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,119
think that it's it's I mean, it's weird to me.

749
00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:23,119
It's interesting because I think people could have argued that

750
00:42:23,159 --> 00:42:25,480
a few hundred years ago. But now that the world

751
00:42:25,519 --> 00:42:28,039
is so flat and that the world is so devout,

752
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,239
like it is so empty of meaning and a purpose

753
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,719
and of direction and of centers and all of that,

754
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,360
I'm surprised people can still think that way because it's like,

755
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,760
look around, folks. You know, the world's turning to mush.

756
00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:45,639
You know, we need we need dedication, like we need

757
00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:50,320
holy holy things, means dedicated to a purpose. You know. Yeah,

758
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,440
it's so true that architecture is just so depressing.

759
00:42:54,599 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 4: You know, the suburbs are just replicated blocks of houses

760
00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:01,400
on you know, and when you go into the town

761
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,719
centers in the UK anyway, it's I mean, you've just

762
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,880
recently been to London, so you've recognized that. You know,

763
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,719
we've still got quite a lot of beautiful architecture, but

764
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,000
we just have stopped building buildings like that, haven't We

765
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,880
just put last towers when you.

766
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: Go to the town centers, Like my town does not

767
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,000
have a center there's no town center in my town.

768
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,079
It's just a suburb and there's another suburb next to it,

769
00:43:26,119 --> 00:43:30,039
and there's another one next to it, and you between

770
00:43:30,079 --> 00:43:33,320
when you're in one suburb or another and there's no center.

771
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,239
So there you go. It's just like it's basically like

772
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,639
turning to mush. It's just a bunch of things laid

773
00:43:39,639 --> 00:43:42,559
out on a on a on an horizontal plane, but

774
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,000
of independent points that aren't connected with each other. You

775
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:45,880
don't know your neighbors.

776
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 4: We've seen that in America, I think, yeah, when we've visited,

777
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,960
you know, you've got like it's sort of interjoined by

778
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,719
strip malls and then like a residential area, whereas it's

779
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,960
still very much like towns in England, isn't it, with

780
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,400
you know, church and town squares and stuff like that.

781
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 3: So yeah, we do still have I think that those

782
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:11,519
kind of villages. But America was really I found it soulless.

783
00:44:11,599 --> 00:44:14,000
Like I love, I love, I love visiting America, and

784
00:44:14,039 --> 00:44:17,360
I'm not talking about everywhere, but there you want to

785
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:18,440
go for a cup of tea and you.

786
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,559
Speaker 1: Can go down the highway, Yeah, like you can.

787
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 3: Go down a road that's so wide and you're in

788
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,960
a car so big that it's just and you just

789
00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:31,920
why why do people seek to flatten everything? Is it

790
00:44:32,199 --> 00:44:35,519
just a power tyranny and creating power?

791
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,079
Speaker 1: It's really power is below. So a way of understanding

792
00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:43,480
it really with Genesis one. You know, you have you

793
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,880
have identity right and name and purposes, and then down

794
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,960
here you have power right. And so the more you

795
00:44:52,119 --> 00:44:54,960
the lower you go, you know, the the less the

796
00:44:55,039 --> 00:44:59,760
identity is visible, like the identity starts to kind of disappear,

797
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,360
and but then the more power you have. And so

798
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:10,559
the the idea of if you think of specialization right

799
00:45:10,639 --> 00:45:13,320
as a tool, So what you do in specialization is

800
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,159
that you break things. Right, So you say, oh, you

801
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,159
used to be a seamstress, you could make dresses, you

802
00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:21,320
could do all that. It's like, well what if I

803
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,199
had someone who could just sew, and then one other

804
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,800
person that can just cut, And then I move and

805
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,119
I break down the unity, I break down the idea

806
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:34,960
into multiple parts, and then I have so much power,

807
00:45:35,079 --> 00:45:38,000
like it just increases my power. And that's what it

808
00:45:38,039 --> 00:45:39,000
is you do.

809
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 3: But but what what about the person who's just in

810
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:43,840
a factory stitching a button.

811
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:45,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're alienating you know, so.

812
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:53,679
Speaker 3: I can understand it's it's seeking power, but for most

813
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,119
people it's it's really just living in a high rise

814
00:45:57,159 --> 00:45:58,159
in a solar city.

815
00:45:58,519 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: So that's why people why people are alienated, that's true.

816
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 3: So there is a hierarchy even in that, because here's

817
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,159
a hierarchy of though powerful and the and they're not powerful,

818
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,960
and even it's communism, I suppose is that.

819
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:19,199
Speaker 1: That it's communism and capitalism both have the same disease. Yeah,

820
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,079
and so the the capitalist with what happens, like you said,

821
00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:25,239
is that in some ways, the the factories and the

822
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,960
workers become the bodies of very very influential, powerful people.

823
00:46:30,639 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 4: Uh.

824
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,519
Speaker 1: They have kingdoms that no king in the ancient world

825
00:46:33,599 --> 00:46:36,679
could have dreamed of. And so you know, so you

826
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,840
have these these massive hierarchies where the like you said,

827
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,000
the people at the bottom are basically just interchangeable dots

828
00:46:44,039 --> 00:46:46,639
that you could just move around. They don't have personalities.

829
00:46:46,639 --> 00:46:49,960
They're just numbers on a spreadsheet. They're not And it's

830
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,760
so funny because we're so used to thinking that's how

831
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,440
the world works, that it's like it's actually not how

832
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,840
the world works. Actually, h you know, there is there

833
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,559
a family is how the world works in terms of

834
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,280
relationality and humanity or even I hate to say this,

835
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,480
people are gonna hate this, but like an ancient lordship

836
00:47:09,559 --> 00:47:11,679
is more like the world how the world works, because

837
00:47:12,159 --> 00:47:14,639
it's true that the serfs would have been the body

838
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,400
of the lord, but the surf, the lord knows their

839
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,119
name for goodness sake, and he knows that they just

840
00:47:21,159 --> 00:47:23,400
had a new little baby, and that, you know, maybe

841
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,559
they're a little bit in trouble, they need some medical help.

842
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,119
He has to take care of them because they're part

843
00:47:28,199 --> 00:47:31,559
of his world. But it's not true. For Google, my goodness,

844
00:47:31,599 --> 00:47:33,159
they just look at how many people they need to

845
00:47:33,199 --> 00:47:36,559
fire on a spreadsheet and they just basically pull the trigger.

846
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,880
So it's like it is. It's obviously our world is

847
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,280
very alienated, and communism is the same. Obvious communism is

848
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:47,119
much worse, but it has this kind of completely alienated

849
00:47:47,639 --> 00:47:51,559
structure where we're basically we're just robots, you know. But

850
00:47:52,079 --> 00:47:53,880
a lot of people are rejecting that now. You know,

851
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,679
this is what's interesting is, you know, economists are complaining

852
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,440
about the great what do they call it, like the

853
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,719
idea that people are just checking out, like all these

854
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,360
young people they're like, you know what I'm just not

855
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,679
gonna play the game. And they're annoyed with that. But

856
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,239
it's like this is a completely and these people what

857
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,280
they want is they also they want more connection, they

858
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,159
want more meaning, they want to stay close to their families.

859
00:48:15,199 --> 00:48:18,480
They're not going to move for a job like this idea.

860
00:48:18,519 --> 00:48:21,159
In the United States, in America, it's so normal, like, oh,

861
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,599
I'm just going to move for a job. I'm just

862
00:48:23,679 --> 00:48:25,599
gonna leave my family and I'm going to go somewhere

863
00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:28,679
else just because I have this career opportunity. This is

864
00:48:28,679 --> 00:48:32,360
completely normal. I've done it becau It's totally normal to

865
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,239
do that. But this is not this is not normal,

866
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:40,280
Like this is not normal, Uh society, No, I agree.

867
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 3: I think it's weird. I think it's it's like an

868
00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:46,639
over focus on solidarity without the folk, without the right

869
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:48,480
balance of subsidiarity.

870
00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 1: That's right. So there's a lack of subsidiarity, and that's

871
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,119
that's exactly what is needed right now is to be

872
00:48:55,199 --> 00:49:00,159
able to start participating in subsidiarity again, right, to be

873
00:49:00,199 --> 00:49:03,760
deliberate about our choices, to be deliberate about There's some

874
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,119
great I mean, there's some great initiatives I've see people

875
00:49:06,199 --> 00:49:12,280
doing some wonderful things trying to reintegrate subsidiarity in people's lives. Obviously,

876
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,079
church communities are a great way to do that in

877
00:49:15,119 --> 00:49:19,960
a very easy way. Involving your parents in your kid's life.

878
00:49:20,079 --> 00:49:22,159
You know, like these these are things that you never

879
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,760
you never in the past, you never would have said

880
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,280
out loud because it was so normal. But now it

881
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,519
actually become like not obvious that you should involve your

882
00:49:32,559 --> 00:49:35,320
parents and your children's life, that you have to say it.

883
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:41,559
And it's like maybe uncles and you know, the neighbors

884
00:49:41,679 --> 00:49:44,119
actually also like all of that, you know you should

885
00:49:44,119 --> 00:49:44,320
do that.

886
00:49:45,519 --> 00:49:47,599
Speaker 3: I really do. Do you think I've said for a

887
00:49:47,679 --> 00:49:49,559
little while, I'm trying to step back a little bit

888
00:49:49,599 --> 00:49:53,639
from some of the madness in social media and stuff.

889
00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:57,039
But I do think the answer first of all is

890
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,960
our ladies feat for sure, Like it's that's it's it's

891
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:07,719
that God's will be done. And then it's it's in ourselves,

892
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,960
Like if we're not striving for sanctity, if we're not

893
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,719
trying to be holy in our own lives and raise

894
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,960
our children and return them to God, it's no good

895
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,760
talking about the problems of the world, because you know,

896
00:50:19,519 --> 00:50:23,159
because what are we doing so I can totally see that.

897
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:25,039
Speaker 1: I just I just.

898
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 3: Because I know your time is short, and of course

899
00:50:27,039 --> 00:50:30,320
there's always much to talk about. I can't let you

900
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,800
go without without getting your thoughts, given that we've just

901
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:39,400
been talking about capitalism and communism and this, you know,

902
00:50:39,519 --> 00:50:42,880
kind of disordered ideas. I'm just trying to find a

903
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,000
way to crow bar this story and to be honest, Johnathan,

904
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,000
which I thought of you when I read it, because

905
00:50:48,679 --> 00:50:50,400
it's a story in the news a couple of days

906
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,559
ago of this woman saying she's challenging Nike and Adidas

907
00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:56,800
and Puma over single shoes and she points to the

908
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:03,840
fact she's a paralympian, that operations have been adopting kind

909
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:09,760
of disability into marketing to try and increase their revenue,

910
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:10,320
let's say.

911
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: And when I read.

912
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:17,039
Speaker 3: It, I thought, well, fair enough, so why not say, then,

913
00:51:17,079 --> 00:51:21,480
why don't you make shoes? Just one shoe? And I'm

914
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,400
trying to get this off. There we are, and I've

915
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:25,920
thought of you because I know you've spoken a lot

916
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:30,239
about the margins and the gargoyles on the outside of church.

917
00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:33,440
Not to call disabled people margins and garb oyls, but

918
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,760
there's an element in which it's not the norm. I

919
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:36,760
always remember exception.

920
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 1: I mean that that you become an exception to normality.

921
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, but wouldn't wouldn't this be the end result of that?

922
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,760
You know, once you start saying I'm going to adopt

923
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,880
something to leverage it for my own material gain a

924
00:51:53,079 --> 00:51:55,679
Nike or Puma, well of course, well I would say

925
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,920
good on you. Good on you saying well, then start

926
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:58,800
making one shoe.

927
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: Then I mean, it's obviously this is ridiculous, which is

928
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,199
why I imagine the reason why the article has been

929
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,039
written is just to rage. It's just rage bait. It's

930
00:52:08,079 --> 00:52:11,559
just for people to read it and think, how like

931
00:52:11,639 --> 00:52:15,360
ridiculous this is, or or agree. I guess some people

932
00:52:15,679 --> 00:52:19,320
might agree. You know, the problem with exceptions is that

933
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:24,119
their exceptions, and there's an indefinite amount of exceptions. This

934
00:52:24,199 --> 00:52:27,519
is the issue, and so that's why there's normality. And

935
00:52:27,559 --> 00:52:31,559
then especially in Christianity, we have something like compassion and mercy,

936
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,559
and compassion and mercy are there to be able to

937
00:52:34,639 --> 00:52:38,920
include exceptions, both you know, very small ones and people

938
00:52:39,079 --> 00:52:43,440
people sitting around you, people kind of breaking normality. But

939
00:52:43,519 --> 00:52:47,679
obviously also as a society and so Now the funny

940
00:52:47,679 --> 00:52:50,440
thing about this, I mean it's funny because you think, well,

941
00:52:50,559 --> 00:52:53,840
let's keep going down the slide this this line. Because

942
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:55,760
if you're going to make shoes for people with one foot,

943
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:57,760
then you should make shoes for people with club feet.

944
00:52:58,639 --> 00:53:01,480
And then you should maybe make shoes for people that

945
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,679
don't have a foot, maybe just have like a like

946
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:06,880
a nub at the end of their leg, and then

947
00:53:07,119 --> 00:53:09,159
you should make shoes. You know, like I can keep

948
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,920
going forever, right, I can continue. You could make shoes

949
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,159
for people that have lost three toes because it's really

950
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,440
uncomfortable in the shoe because they've lost three toes.

951
00:53:17,679 --> 00:53:19,599
Speaker 3: So before you even get onto gloves.

952
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so like there's just like an indefinite amount

953
00:53:22,159 --> 00:53:27,760
of exceptions obviously to the rule. And so the the

954
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,639
what I call it the weaponizing of compassion in some ways,

955
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,039
this you know, and it's an upside down version of

956
00:53:33,039 --> 00:53:36,760
what Christian mercy is, which is Christian mercy would be

957
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,760
something like you meet someone who's lost their foot, and

958
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:42,960
you know it could even be this good is something

959
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,000
that could actually happen. You could have someone who comes

960
00:53:45,039 --> 00:53:48,400
into the store with one leg and one foot and

961
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,719
the guy the counter has mercy on the person's like, Hey,

962
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,559
you know what, I'm going to charge you fifty percent

963
00:53:52,599 --> 00:53:55,320
off because you know, you know you've had a rough

964
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,679
you know, I really appreciate you. And that's a normal

965
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:00,599
Christian reaction to the situation.

966
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:01,559
Speaker 4: Uh.

967
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:08,079
Speaker 1: But the person demanding that now the normality adapts to

968
00:54:08,199 --> 00:54:14,559
them completely and creates official versions of their exception. That

969
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:19,800
is going into absolute madness. It's not sustainable, like I said,

970
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,800
because the idea that that having only one foot is

971
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,639
the only form of handicap that you could have. There's

972
00:54:26,679 --> 00:54:29,920
like there are millions of them, Like every single possible

973
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,559
exception that you could that you could could have, and

974
00:54:32,559 --> 00:54:34,159
you could you should make shoes for people that have

975
00:54:34,159 --> 00:54:36,800
no feed Why aren't you makings for people that have

976
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:37,519
no feet at all?

977
00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:40,079
Speaker 4: I mean it's relativism, though, isn't it. It's the natural

978
00:54:40,119 --> 00:54:43,320
trajectory that we're on, is this sort of complete meltdown

979
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,119
into utter relativism, where our own reality is the only

980
00:54:47,199 --> 00:54:50,360
reality we we understand, and therefore there has to be

981
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,639
a billion different versions of the reality.

982
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:58,599
Speaker 1: It's except it's the idea that the exception is always

983
00:54:58,679 --> 00:55:02,519
being stifled or pressed by the rule. That's the vision

984
00:55:02,559 --> 00:55:05,159
that we have and that in fact, the existence of

985
00:55:05,199 --> 00:55:08,480
the rule is a form of oppression because of exceptions.

986
00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:11,599
And so you know, but that's an untendable position, like

987
00:55:11,679 --> 00:55:13,559
you said, because what happens is you see it with

988
00:55:13,599 --> 00:55:17,000
the with the LGBT stuff, is that you just keep

989
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,639
adding letters to the LGBT and it's like the LGBT

990
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:22,880
Q I A, and then you just keep going because

991
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,199
there is no different to exception. There's no limit to

992
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,840
the exception because it's it's it's intercategorical in itself, and

993
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:35,000
like between categories, there's a bunch of chaos. Yeah, I

994
00:55:35,519 --> 00:55:36,920
think about it like you can think about it in

995
00:55:37,039 --> 00:55:38,920
terms of someone think about it this way. It's like

996
00:55:39,159 --> 00:55:41,039
you have a you have I don't know, an English

997
00:55:41,039 --> 00:55:44,679
person and a Somali and then they get married and

998
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,119
then you create a category which is, oh, he's half

999
00:55:47,199 --> 00:55:49,719
English a Somali, and then that person, to say, gets

1000
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,159
married with someone who have this and have that. And

1001
00:55:52,199 --> 00:55:55,440
so imagine if you had categories for every single mixture

1002
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,000
that existed, and you started to create like, well, I

1003
00:55:58,039 --> 00:55:59,920
need I need rights. What are the rights for the

1004
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,599
one quarter Somali, one quarter British, in one quarter you

1005
00:56:03,639 --> 00:56:08,280
know Samoan, and it's like, what what rights talking about?

1006
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,800
This is man, it's right to we have ways to

1007
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:16,280
deal with exceptions, but making the rule making rules for

1008
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,480
exceptions is not the right way to go. Making official

1009
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:20,920
things for exceptions doesn't work.

1010
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is which is why all one in Christ

1011
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,400
is the answer is the only to hold intention that

1012
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,239
that diversity in unity. We were talking about remarking the

1013
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,519
schools people are at pains, even in Catholic schools to

1014
00:56:35,599 --> 00:56:38,800
have LGBT bullying policies, and you think, why not just

1015
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,079
have an anti bullying policy and that includes gingers and

1016
00:56:42,679 --> 00:56:44,360
four I just to pick out.

1017
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 1: You know, like, yeah, what, I can't believe you're picking

1018
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:50,039
on gingers.

1019
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 4: It's the only safe category in England.

1020
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, and can imagine.

1021
00:56:57,519 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 3: Ginger lives matter. I'm all for it. We Jonathan, we've

1022
00:57:03,079 --> 00:57:06,400
encroached on your time, long enough for today because I

1023
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,760
know you're very busy man, but I thank you so

1024
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,239
much for covering such ground. It's always so interesting and

1025
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,239
I do hope you'll join us again in conversation court.

1026
00:57:15,599 --> 00:57:17,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, all the best, Thank you, it was great.

1027
00:57:18,199 --> 00:57:21,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks God blessed right and visit Jonathan's website Symbolic

1028
00:57:21,719 --> 00:57:24,880
World dot com. Is that right, Yeah, yeah, and check

1029
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,719
out his videos and content there, and also order your

1030
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,679
books because you've got some great books as well that

1031
00:57:29,719 --> 00:57:30,480
you've been working on.

1032
00:57:30,599 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're working. We've been publishing children's books, you know.

1033
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,360
In some ways this is the solution to I mean,

1034
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:37,920
a lot of things we're doing now is in someone's

1035
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,400
complaining about the state of the world, which is fine

1036
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:42,480
we need to do, but I think that if we

1037
00:57:42,559 --> 00:57:44,519
want things to get better, we have to capture we

1038
00:57:44,559 --> 00:57:47,360
have to we have to capture culture. And so we're

1039
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:52,679
telling beautiful, celebratory versions of the fairy tales, you know,

1040
00:57:52,719 --> 00:57:56,440
in the hope to to actually start with children, like

1041
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,199
to help children see beauty and to learn about how

1042
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,800
we have all these powerful stories and our traditions. Once again.

1043
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,159
Speaker 3: So yeah, they're brilliant. I ordered them myself for my

1044
00:58:05,199 --> 00:58:08,719
own children here last Christmas, so and I think you've

1045
00:58:08,719 --> 00:58:11,039
produced more since. So do take a look at that

1046
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:14,159
and visit our own webs That was good, wasn't it,

1047
00:58:14,239 --> 00:58:17,199
And visit our own website, Catholic Unscripted dot com and

1048
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,320
you can check out all our articles and videos there.

1049
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,239
But for now, thanks for watching God bless Goobye.

1050
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,679
Speaker 1: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to

1051
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,480
the Symbolic world dot com website and see how you

1052
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,639
can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers

1053
00:58:30,639 --> 00:58:33,599
with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase, So

1054
00:58:33,679 --> 00:58:35,800
go to the symbolic world dot com and thank you

1055
00:58:36,119 --> 00:58:36,840
for your support