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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every week,
Speaker 2: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening, a compilation of six fascinating historical true crime stories,
Speaker 6: all geographically attached, are close to the author's childhood home.
Speaker 6: There's Killer of the Cloth and the Content, Mosquito Point Road,
Speaker 6: Death of a First Basement, The Blue Guardina, and Pure
Speaker 6: Slash Evil and three of the killers are female. The
Speaker 6: book they're featuring this evening is Mosquito Point Road, Monroe County,
Speaker 6: Murder in Mayhem with my special guest, journalist and author
Speaker 6: Michael Benson. Welcome back to the program, and thank you
Speaker 6: very much for this interview. Michael Benson.
Speaker 7: Thanks Dan, good evening, Thank.
Speaker 6: You, good evening. Indeed, we talked about in the introduction
Speaker 6: that all of these stories are geographically attached or close
Speaker 6: to your childhood home. Tell us about growing up in
Speaker 6: Chile outside of a suburb of Rochester, Chili, New York.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about growing up there and
Speaker 6: the proximity to these stories.
Speaker 5: Okay, everybody in Chilai is laughing right now.
Speaker 6: Oh, there we go again.
Speaker 5: I did it with Highli. I grew up on a
Speaker 5: dirt road called Stallman Drive. It was off of Balentine Road,
Speaker 5: south of the city of Rochester, in the town of Chili.
Speaker 5: The northern border of our land was made by Black Creek,
Speaker 5: and Black Creek flowed into the Genesee River, which then
Speaker 5: flowed northward into Lake Ontario, going through the city as
Speaker 5: it went. Now, I think people who read the Devil
Speaker 5: Genese Junction are pretty familiar with the area and the
Speaker 5: murders of my babysitter, Georgia and Formacola and her friend
Speaker 5: from down the road Kathy Bernhard nineteen sixty six. Now,
Speaker 5: as I was growing up, I knew that Valentine Road
Speaker 5: had years before been known as Mosquito Point Road, and
Speaker 5: the assumption was that the name came The name change
Speaker 5: came about because real estate brokers didn't want prospective buyers
Speaker 5: thinking the area was insect infested, which it was. My
Speaker 5: dad never looked at the house after dark until we
Speaker 5: lived there, at which we were horrified that we hadn't
Speaker 5: had a constant battle against the insects. But as it
Speaker 5: turned out, that wasn't the reason for the name change.
Speaker 5: The name was changed because it became synonymous with a
Speaker 5: ghastly murder, one that took place in nineteen twenty, exactly
Speaker 5: one hundred years ago, and at the exact same spot
Speaker 5: is where my friends were last seen before they were
Speaker 5: murdered forty six years later, so that was where the
Speaker 5: idea for the book started. Six stories, to varying degrees,
Speaker 5: tied with my childhood home. Some took place right behind
Speaker 5: my house in jyly down the road a bit, some
Speaker 5: just across the Genesee River in the town of Brighton,
Speaker 5: and one's in the town of Greece, and ones in
Speaker 5: the town of Rondequoit, which are all simple drives from
Speaker 5: my house growing up that The Mosquito Point Road murder
Speaker 5: occurred on January eighth, nineteen twenty, black creeks frozen over,
Speaker 5: everything snow covered, and shortly before noon on that day,
Speaker 5: the body of a young man wearing only his underwear
Speaker 5: was found stashed on the ice under the stone trestle
Speaker 5: just north of Mosquito Point Road, same trestle. This appears
Speaker 5: on the cover of the book and where Georgiane and
Speaker 5: Cathy were last seen. It's actually a culvert and it
Speaker 5: was built as an aqueduct to carry the Genesee Valley
Speaker 5: Canal across Black Creek, and by nineteen twenty it was
Speaker 5: being used as a trestle to take the railroad across
Speaker 5: the creek. Now, the location was described to city wellers
Speaker 5: in the papers of the day as just south of
Speaker 5: britain Field. I had no idea what britain Field was,
Speaker 5: but I found out that it was a one year
Speaker 5: old airstrip that would grow in stages into the Rochester
Speaker 5: Monroe County International Airport. So the airport in Rochester has
Speaker 5: always been in the same place since there were airplanes.
Speaker 5: But the bridge was stone. It looked permanent, although today
Speaker 5: it's in a state of disrepair. A little bit of
Speaker 5: concern there someday somebody's going to walk across the thing
Speaker 5: and fall into the creek. But at two tunnels went
Speaker 5: under it, and they were just high enough, I know
Speaker 5: from personal experience, just high enough so that you could
Speaker 5: canoe under the trestle if you limboed back while you
Speaker 5: were paddling.
Speaker 7: But back in.
Speaker 5: Nineteen twenty, the man that they found under the bridge
Speaker 5: lying on the ice had been stabbed, horribly slashed, disemboweled,
Speaker 5: his skull caved in, and most disturbingly, his head had
Speaker 5: been skinned. His scalp was flayed off, his ears were shredded.
Speaker 5: One ear was hanging by a single thread of cartilage.
Speaker 5: Now on the banks of Black Creek, next to where
Speaker 5: the body had been stashed, sheriff's investigators found two sets
Speaker 5: of footprints, one man in one female, and the sheriff
Speaker 5: himself said that it was the most brutal murder he
Speaker 5: had ever seen around those parts in a long time. Now,
Speaker 5: the heaviest muddy footprints from the woman were found under
Speaker 5: a tree about sixty feet away from the body, where
Speaker 5: there was a large patch of red snow, and resting
Speaker 5: atop the body was a wooden club that had at
Speaker 5: one time been part of a railroad tie. There were
Speaker 5: bloodstains on the club, and it was presumed that the
Speaker 5: big stick had put the hole in the body's skull.
Speaker 5: Now nearby they found the heel from a woman's shoe
Speaker 5: stuck in the mud, and an investigator looked around at
Speaker 5: the female prince and envisioned a woman dancing about in
Speaker 5: distress as she watched the man being killed in a
Speaker 5: gruesome way. But as it turned out, that investigator had
Speaker 5: it all wrong. Investigators agreed that there must have been
Speaker 5: an extended attack because it would just take a lot
Speaker 5: of tenacity, especially kind of anger, to flail that much
Speaker 5: skin off of a man. So they but at first,
Speaker 5: you know, they they managed to identify the guy by
Speaker 5: a idea in his pocket, and the big break in
Speaker 5: the case came fairly quickly when a taxi cab driver
Speaker 5: from the city of Rochester, a guy named Charles Shearer,
Speaker 5: called up police headquarters and said he thought he might
Speaker 5: have given the victim and his killers a ride out
Speaker 5: Scottsville Road as far as the Valentine Bridge. Balentin Bridge
Speaker 5: was known as the Balentine Bridge before Valentine Road was
Speaker 5: named Valentine Road. The road was named after the bridge.
Speaker 5: Sheriff's detectives picked up Shearer at his home and took
Speaker 5: him to the morgue. They showed him the body. He
Speaker 5: went and said, yep, that was the guy in the
Speaker 5: cab and apparently must have been some face intact and
Speaker 5: with him during the ride, he said was a young couple,
Speaker 5: there was a man, there was the victim, and the
Speaker 5: victim was handcuffed to a young woman. They asked him
Speaker 5: if he had any clue as to the identity of
Speaker 5: the killer cup, and he said, well, he overheard them
Speaker 5: talking about a man named Arnold who lived on North
Speaker 5: Washington Street in the city. So that info led to
Speaker 5: the arrest of Jimmy and Pearl Odell, and they were newlyweds.
Speaker 5: Pearl was still a teenager, Jimmy was in his early twenties.
Speaker 5: Pearl had been on her own since she was fourteen.
Speaker 5: She grew up in Pennsylvania, and when she was just
Speaker 5: a teenager, her dad lost an arm in a mining
Speaker 5: accident and was unable to provide for his family, so
Speaker 5: she took off on her own defend for herself. Imagine
Speaker 5: this in nineteen twenty and in nineteeneen it's happened. So
Speaker 5: Pearl has a strong sense of survival and has no
Speaker 5: doubt relied on the kindnesses of strangers to get ahead.
Speaker 5: Well anyway, investigators learned that the name of the victim
Speaker 5: was Edward Knipe. That's spelled k n e i P.
Speaker 5: You know, keep going neep, But we know it's Nipe
Speaker 5: because at the time people would often mispronounce it as night,
Speaker 5: like a knight of shining armor. And he was a
Speaker 5: man who had before Pearl and Jimmy met taken Pearl's virginity,
Speaker 5: or so she claimed. Pearl had a reputation for telling
Speaker 5: a tall tale now and again. And Pearl told her
Speaker 5: husband that Knipe had drugged her chocolates. He gave her
Speaker 5: a Christmas present a box of chocolates, drugged the chocolates,
Speaker 5: and raped her while she was unconscious. Well, that news
Speaker 5: just ate at Jimmy O'Dell. He was a bit of
Speaker 5: a hothead to begin with. He'd been he'd left the
Speaker 5: service because of the mental problems, had anger issues. But
Speaker 5: he stewed on this for a long time and came
Speaker 5: up with a plant. He was going to kidnap Knipe
Speaker 5: and take both Knipe and his wife out into the country,
Speaker 5: where he would give Pearl an opportunity to punish Knipe
Speaker 5: for having raped her. Her web I thought was going
Speaker 5: to be an a.
Speaker 6: Yes, Michael, you're talking about how his plan tell us
Speaker 6: how on earth he could You talk about the amount
Speaker 6: of deputy badges that were handed out save for by
Speaker 6: the former sheriff. Tell us about more about this plan
Speaker 6: and this audacious plan, how he pulled it off.
Speaker 5: Well, he apparently the previous sheriff there had been strikes,
Speaker 5: labor unions had gone on strike, and the previous sheriff
Speaker 5: had deputized a large number of men to handle any
Speaker 5: riots that there might be. So there were deputy badges
Speaker 5: floating around Rochester so that you could get for cheap.
Speaker 5: Then somebody would blend you one if you needed to
Speaker 5: pretend you had some authority for any reason. So Odell
Speaker 5: has one of these badges, and he buys a pair
Speaker 5: of handcuffs, and then he goes to Knipe's workplace, flashes
Speaker 5: the badge, says, you know, the police or Monroe County sheriff,
Speaker 5: whichever it was, and they bring they bring Nipe out
Speaker 5: to him, and he says, oh, you're coming with me, buddy,
Speaker 5: And he then takes Nipe to the homie lives in
Speaker 5: with his with his bride and his stepfather and stepmother
Speaker 5: who been basically his parents, and he makes Knipe confess
Speaker 5: to to raping Pearl. Although Knipe never admits that he
Speaker 5: drugged her, he seems to imply that it was consensual,
Speaker 5: although certainly statutory since she was I think sixteen at
Speaker 5: the time. And then he puts the two of them
Speaker 5: in the car and they're going to head out to
Speaker 5: the country to so that Pearl will get be given
Speaker 5: an opportunity to punish this guy. But his car breaks
Speaker 5: down and he ends up getting a cab to take
Speaker 5: him out as far as Mosquito Point Road in Sconso Road,
Speaker 5: and that that's, of course, how he gets caught, is
Speaker 5: that the cabby remembers who he is. So yeah, the
Speaker 5: Pearl Pearl brings along with her because she's been told
Speaker 5: that she's going to be given this opportunity, and I
Speaker 5: think she realizes and I believe this to be true.
Speaker 5: I think that if Pearl had said, no, I'm not
Speaker 5: going to hurt him, I can't hurt anybody, that Odell
Speaker 5: would have killed them both as sort of an honor killed.
Speaker 5: So she has this eighteen inch file, and the file
Speaker 5: he's described as various in various ways, and there's no
Speaker 5: photos of it, but Odell's stepmom says that she used
Speaker 5: to use it to cut ham, although I guess maybe
Speaker 5: to make hash or something, and O'Dell himself says he
Speaker 5: used it to help change a tire. So it's hard
Speaker 5: to imagine a tool that could used for both of
Speaker 5: those things. But an eighteen inch file, I think we
Speaker 5: can imagine. And they go out to the spot near
Speaker 5: the near the the trestle and Knipe is handcuffed to
Speaker 5: a tree and Jimmy says, okay, Pearl, go at it,
Speaker 5: and she starts taking the file to Knipe's head and
Speaker 5: once she gets started, she decides she kind of likes it.
Speaker 5: And next thing you know, they're going to have to
Speaker 5: kill the guy because he has no skin left on
Speaker 5: his head. So anyway, the car and the resulting trial
Speaker 5: has to be one of the most bizarre, some of
Speaker 5: the most bizarre in Monroe County history. They were tried
Speaker 5: one at a time, and these are the days before yeah,
Speaker 5: I think even radio that you had to wait for
Speaker 5: the newspaper to get the news. So people blocked to
Speaker 5: the courthouse. You know, you had to show up at
Speaker 5: two in the morning to get a seat in the courtroom.
Speaker 5: And by the end, by the time they're waiting for
Speaker 5: the jurors to come back with verdicts, there were crowds
Speaker 5: of thousands of people outside the courthouse, shutting down traffic,
Speaker 5: people were trying to peek into the into the jurors room.
Speaker 5: Just mayhem and you know things that the one moment
Speaker 5: in the in the trial that really almost starts the
Speaker 5: riot is that Pearl announces while on the stand that
Speaker 5: she is pregnant, and that's it. That's it takes a
Speaker 5: long time for the judge to get to get order
Speaker 5: in the court after that.
Speaker 6: There are different versions as this story progresses and as
Speaker 6: you have Lao for the reader. At first, it sounds
Speaker 6: much simpler there she tells her husband that this person
Speaker 6: has defiled her, and but we hear different details. In fact,
Speaker 6: there's brought up a trial when they testify that we're
Speaker 6: talking a little bit more complicated situation because she said
Speaker 6: he had promised to marry her and there were plans
Speaker 6: for their marriage. Oh, it was a little bit more
Speaker 6: to the story. And as the trial. At the trial
Speaker 6: you say that everybody wanted to witness this. Women especially
Speaker 6: were enamored by this incredible thing. The spectators, it was
Speaker 6: a circus like atmosphere.
Speaker 5: Well, it's an amazing insight into what it was like
Speaker 5: to be a woman on her own in nineteen twenty.
Speaker 5: I mean, if we're supposed to believe everything that Pearl says,
Speaker 5: then she is roofied, raped and when she wakes up,
Speaker 5: she's okay with it as long as the guy promises
Speaker 5: to take care of her from men are sure, it's
Speaker 5: hard to imagine a situation like that today. Although desperate,
Speaker 5: we'll do desperate things. Uh, it's.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 5: In fact, she gets her reputation for telling tall tales
Speaker 5: by going around telling people that she did marry Knipe
Speaker 5: and that they went on a honeymoon together. It also
Speaker 5: comes out in the trial that she and O'Dell at
Speaker 5: first she doesn't want to marry Odell because she's not
Speaker 5: a virgin, and he keeps saying, oh no, that's okay,
Speaker 5: we can get married anyway. But they lived together and
Speaker 5: presumably have relations for weeks before they get married again.
Speaker 5: Just scandal, unbelievable scandal, and that's these are these are
Speaker 5: the sort of little details that made the made the
Speaker 5: crime so popular. I mean, trial of the century in
Speaker 5: Monroe County. Pearl was still a teenager, and she set
Speaker 5: demurely in the courtroom with a pretty hat on. It
Speaker 5: would make it would make a great movie.
Speaker 6: Dan One issue that I thought was very interesting too,
Speaker 6: was the big break they got was the cabby coming
Speaker 6: forward and saying, yeah, I transported these people and I
Speaker 6: dropped them off in the middle of nowhere here this
Speaker 6: Mosquito Point road. But the idea that he said that
Speaker 6: they were handcuffed together makes the story and all subsequent
Speaker 6: is much different than they went together in the car,
Speaker 6: but warn't handcuffed together, so lends credence to that original
Speaker 6: theory that he was taking them both out there.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think so and h and it's it's
Speaker 5: interesting that they're they're not terribly lovey dovey. During the
Speaker 5: trial process, at one point, you know, she says that
Speaker 5: she'll she'll stick with him even if he goes away
Speaker 5: to prison, but we're not we're not sure she's she's
Speaker 5: already thinking in terms of her own survival at that point.
Speaker 5: And during her trial, he's, well, he's already sing sing
Speaker 5: for the first time. She starts to talk about Jimmy
Speaker 5: as an abusive husband.
Speaker 6: That's right, which tind to.
Speaker 5: Say, which we could we could have figured out from
Speaker 5: the cab driver's testimony. Obviously, the way to do it
Speaker 5: is to handcuff night too. Odell and there's no reason
Speaker 5: to handcuff Pearl, and Pearl's going to be less able
Speaker 5: to stop Nighte if he decides to be aggressive. It
Speaker 5: only makes sense if he's taking them out there to
Speaker 5: punish them both.
Speaker 6: What's fascinating too in nineteen twenty yet or even twenty
Speaker 6: twenty the idea of the savagery, the brutality that she
Speaker 6: inflicted upon this former Well, this her rapist, she claims,
Speaker 6: and evidence that that would be. But again the circumstances.
Speaker 6: People were fascinated by this case, but they were especially
Speaker 6: fascinated those aspects of it, how much she had done
Speaker 6: and why. And tell us more about the reaction by
Speaker 6: media about this case.
Speaker 5: Well, it was splash front page headlines in the Rochester
Speaker 5: Democrat and Chronicle and Times Union for a year.
Speaker 7: And a half.
Speaker 5: I just say it was it was like the OJ
Speaker 5: trial of its day because it had everything. I mean,
Speaker 5: it had had extreme violence, It had, you know, non
Speaker 5: marital sex, it had it had a woman who turned vicious,
Speaker 5: but perhaps because she thought that if she didn't turn vicious,
Speaker 5: she herself would be harmed. It So it was complex
Speaker 5: in that way, psychologically complex, and Pearl's kind of cute.
Speaker 5: You know she's she looks good at a picture in
Speaker 5: the newspaper, although she was never eager to have her
Speaker 5: photo taken. I think the only the only photos I've
Speaker 5: seen two photos of her, and they were reused. But
Speaker 5: one looks like a portrait that might have been taken
Speaker 5: on a formal occasion, and the other is a candid
Speaker 5: a profile. And I know that when she was photographed
Speaker 5: and photographers swarmed her later under different circumstances, she would
Speaker 5: put her hands.
Speaker 7: Over her face.
Speaker 5: She's not eager to be famous in that particular way.
Speaker 6: Story. Let's talk about another story, and I'm hopefully I
Speaker 6: don't mispronounce this one. Jean Ken Ye.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, Well, see, your guess is as good as mark.
Speaker 5: I think it's a pen yet, n Ye, I think yeah,
Speaker 5: I think I think you.
Speaker 7: Got it right.
Speaker 5: Hell else, Well, the story starts in a way that
Speaker 5: it's kind of warms my heart in a weird way.
Speaker 5: It's the story of a forty year old odd minister
Speaker 5: and his much younger wife who's been abused and ends
Speaker 5: up dead and floating in the Genesee River with a
Speaker 5: couple of bullets in her right, across the river from
Speaker 5: where I lived, and but that the thing that I
Speaker 5: like about this is that the body was found by
Speaker 5: a group of children. A guy named Leslie McMahon and
Speaker 5: a couple other kids saw the body, and they're.
Speaker 7: All still around.
Speaker 5: They're all still alive, and I got to talk to them.
Speaker 5: They agree very little on what exactly happened before and
Speaker 5: after the discovery of the body, as you might expect
Speaker 5: memory seventy one years after the factor, they're a little vague.
Speaker 5: But we went with Leslie McMahon's story because it agreed
Speaker 5: most with what the contemporaneous reports said. And he also
Speaker 5: testified at three trials, so we're pretty sure he's the
Speaker 5: kid who found the body. And he's ten years old.
Speaker 5: He went to Valentine's schools in school I went to
Speaker 5: from first to fourth. I think we had some of
Speaker 5: the same teachers. And he said he saw something in
Speaker 5: the river that caught his eye. He's fishing on a
Speaker 5: Saturday morning, and he thought it was a dressmaker's dummy,
Speaker 5: and he did stopped fishing because his dad wanted to
Speaker 5: know if he wanted to go to the store with him,
Speaker 5: and he said sure, packed up his gear, went to
Speaker 5: the store with dad, and came back and there were
Speaker 5: police cars there, and he immediately knew then that what
Speaker 5: he had seen was not a dressmaker's dummy, and he
Speaker 5: told police that he had been there and seen the
Speaker 5: body at nine p thirty that morning, and that meant
Speaker 5: he was the first to see it until he had that.
Speaker 5: So yeah, So snag down a log was the body
Speaker 5: of a dark haired woman. She was wearing a white
Speaker 5: silk dress, faded pink slip edge, with the black bra
Speaker 5: and pink rayon panties. She'd been shot twice with a
Speaker 5: twenty five automatic pistol and one of them went through
Speaker 5: her heart. Nobody knew who she was. Sheriff Albert Skinner.
Speaker 5: He was sheriff in Monroe County for forty some years.
Speaker 5: He's now appearing in for the fourth time. In one
Speaker 5: of my books, he invited people to come down to
Speaker 5: the morgue to look at the body to see if
Speaker 5: anybody could identify her, because he says that once we
Speaker 5: figure out who she is, we're going to know who
Speaker 5: the killer is. And as he so often was, Sheriff
Speaker 5: Skinner was right.
Speaker 7: Now.
Speaker 5: Six hundred people show up to view the body and
Speaker 5: not a single one has any clue who she is,
Speaker 5: but because the body was found only hours after it
Speaker 5: went into the river, it was easily fingerprinted, and the
Speaker 5: FBI in a matter of hours matched the body's fingerprints
Speaker 5: to that of twenty five year old Jeane Hattennee. And
Speaker 5: she was a philharmonic violinist, the wife of an odd
Speaker 5: preacher named the Reverend George hit Tennie, so investigators called
Speaker 5: her her mom in Oakland, California, said that Jean's first
Speaker 5: husband had been killed in World War two the Battle
Speaker 5: of Lady Gulf in the Philippines, and that she'd remarried
Speaker 5: too soon. The mom thought, and the he Tennyees lived
Speaker 5: in Amherst, New York, which is closer to Buffalo than
Speaker 5: it is to Rochester. So Deputy Sheriff William Flynn drives
Speaker 5: to Buffalo. He picks up an escort from the Erie
Speaker 5: County Sheriff's deputies, and at two thirty in the morning,
Speaker 5: he knocks on Hittenye's door and her ten Yee answers,
Speaker 5: all stuffy and chilly. He told the cops his wife
Speaker 5: had run off, probably went to california'd be.
Speaker 7: With her mom.
Speaker 5: He didn't care anymore, didn't love her anymore. And they
Speaker 5: told him no, sorry, she's dead and she's in the
Speaker 5: Monroe County morgue. And the reverend seemed bizarrely unconcerned about
Speaker 5: the tragedy, right, So they put Antennee into the car
Speaker 5: and take him back to Monroe County and into the
Speaker 5: sheriff's apartment. The sheriff had an apartment then, maybe still does,
Speaker 5: I don't know, right down the hall from the jail.
Speaker 5: So the sheriff and the prisoners were neighbors. And Hettenya
Speaker 5: gets into the uh oh, they call him mister Attenney.
Speaker 5: He says, no, that's Reverend Antenny gets into the sheriff's
Speaker 5: apartment and has a temper tantrum, breaks a window, knocks
Speaker 5: over a lamp, and Sheriff Skinner, you know, pins him
Speaker 5: down and leans on him until he takes the fight
Speaker 5: out of him. This Sheriff Skinner had a reputation for
Speaker 5: a big man, big, big up and down, bigger round,
Speaker 5: and he could just lean on you and you couldn't breathe,
Speaker 5: and you didn't fight anymore. I don't think he did
Speaker 5: for eight minutes. Friends and relatives tell investigators that the
Speaker 5: ten Yees had a horrible marriage, that the reverend had
Speaker 5: lost jobs, because they had brawls in public. He once
Speaker 5: knocked out one of Jean's teeth. He proclaimed proudly for
Speaker 5: all to hear, that all wives need a good beating
Speaker 5: every now and again. So investigators began to wonder if
Speaker 5: this guy's a minister at all, Maybe he's just a
Speaker 5: con man. He'd been a Catholic priest, Episcopalian minister, a
Speaker 5: Greek Orthodox minister, and during tough times he took his
Speaker 5: forty seven old station wagon on the road and passed
Speaker 5: the offer tory hat. The car, which was found in
Speaker 5: his Amors garage, was a fully equipped portable church, had
Speaker 5: an organ that was powered by the more by the motor,
Speaker 5: had a collapsible altar. They asked his mother in law
Speaker 5: what religion is he, and she said he changes religions
Speaker 5: like a chamellion changes colors.
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Speaker 5: So cops and search the car and they find a
Speaker 5: clumsy attempt to clean the blood up, and then they find
Speaker 5: the twenty five caliber slug stuck inside the door of
Speaker 5: the car, and that's all Sheriff's Goinna has to hear
Speaker 5: book them. Sure, that's it, we got them. And it
Speaker 5: looks like an open and shutcase. But as it turns
Speaker 5: out that's only the beginning.
Speaker 6: He gets right away. His behavior is so incredible, incredibly odd.
Speaker 6: He thinks that he can't doesn't have to talk to
Speaker 6: the district attorney, Anthony Michelle, and he thinks that he's
Speaker 6: compromising his constitutional rights. Tell us what this attorney advises
Speaker 6: him and what does he say to police when asked?
Speaker 6: When question, well.
Speaker 5: I think the case. His future looks a lot brighter
Speaker 5: when he is appointed an attorney by the court. Says
Speaker 5: he can't afford his own attorney. He tries to get
Speaker 5: a couple of guys to represent him and ends up
Speaker 5: slamming the phone down, and he's appointed by the court
Speaker 5: representation by a guy named George Skivington of Scottsville. I
Speaker 5: went to school with his grandson, Peter, who's now a
Speaker 5: lawyer himself. And Skivington is a Perry Mason type. He's
Speaker 5: known for his out of the box thinking in courtroom theatrics.
Speaker 5: But even before he gets to attend attendan he's telling
Speaker 5: a story that he took his wife to a psychiatrist
Speaker 5: because she was crazy and driving him to distraction, and
Speaker 5: he comes home without her because she ran off. And
Speaker 5: this has happened before. But she always comes back up
Speaker 5: to three or four days. She contradicts what he said
Speaker 5: when he first saw the police, that she was probably
Speaker 5: on her way to California, but that's his story. Doesn't
Speaker 5: know where she is and his if the blood in
Speaker 5: the car isn't enough. Witnesses start to crop up saying
Speaker 5: that he was in Rochester.
Speaker 7: He was not.
Speaker 5: Only he was in downtown Rochester asking about how the
Speaker 5: river went and how you get upstream here, and he
Speaker 5: after the murder, he was back in Amherst at the
Speaker 5: dry cleaners, trying to get some bloodstained out of things,
Speaker 5: and he was changing his clothes in the dry cleaners,
Speaker 5: so he looks pretty guilty. And then George Skivington shows
Speaker 5: up and he fights for this guy like he's fighting
Speaker 5: for his own freedom. And usually court appointed the turnery
Speaker 5: attorney's usually saying, well, let's see if we can make
Speaker 5: a deal and avoid a trial. Not George, he says,
Speaker 5: well on the police never found the murder weapon. They
Speaker 5: dragged the Genesee River, they used a metal detector, no gun.
Speaker 5: And two they don't know where the crime took place.
Speaker 5: The attendees lived near Buffalo, the body's found near Rochester.
Speaker 5: Who knew where the case should be tried, and as
Speaker 5: it turns out, there are three trials. His convictions keep
Speaker 5: being overturned. I mean, once he's convicted the first time
Speaker 5: of second degree murder and then at the second trial
Speaker 5: he's convicted a first degree murder and sentenced, but that's
Speaker 5: ruled that's ruled double jeopardy because once the first jury
Speaker 5: said second degree murder, first of murder had to be
Speaker 5: off the table, right, And you know, his final con
Speaker 5: job comes in nineteen sixty six. He'd been in prison
Speaker 5: for seventeen years, usually just awaiting a new trial, and
Speaker 5: he told the court that to avoid a fourth trial,
Speaker 5: he would plead guilty to manslaughter, and in exchange for
Speaker 5: time served, he promised that he would join a monastery
Speaker 5: and become a monk. But that's uh, that was a
Speaker 5: con as well, because he walks out of attic a
Speaker 5: prison a free man weeks later, but he doesn't joined
Speaker 5: a monastery. In fact, he marries a much younger woman
Speaker 5: and moves to the American Southwest, where he lives out
Speaker 5: his years and finally dies in nineteen seventy seven at
Speaker 5: the age of sixty seven.
Speaker 6: Incredible, with all that overwhelming evidence, and it looks again
Speaker 6: like every single time that there's enough to convict him.
Speaker 6: And this incredible result where he does very little time
Speaker 6: to almost time served and walks out a free man, unbelievable.
Speaker 5: And it's it brings up an interesting legal question that
Speaker 5: if you have crime scenes that are in different jurisdictions,
Speaker 5: where do you hold the trial and who does the investigation?
Speaker 5: But it shouldn't be a matter of you know, the
Speaker 5: guy gets to go free because of that.
Speaker 6: No, no, no, it's it's also an example too that
Speaker 6: once you get two or three trials in the prosecution
Speaker 6: seems to put their hands in the air and say
Speaker 6: enough is enough in terms of money risked, money you know, spent.
Speaker 6: And that's why you get such a dramatic deal in
Speaker 6: this fourth trial, isn't it?
Speaker 5: That's that is that is correct and uh And until
Speaker 5: he agrees to plead guilty to manslaughter, he never ever
Speaker 5: admits to killing his wife.
Speaker 7: No, which.
Speaker 5: Which is you know, the smart thing to do if
Speaker 5: you happen to have killed somebody, you never say it
Speaker 5: out loud.
Speaker 6: Certainly, Now let's talk about another on the opposite side
Speaker 6: of religion. But at least it's some tie this incredible story.
Speaker 6: The Baby in the Convent again, incredible sentencing, incredible trials
Speaker 6: and incredible end results. Let's talk about this Baby in
Speaker 6: the Closet in a place Brighton and Our Lady of
Speaker 6: Lord's Convent, well St.
Speaker 7: Joseph.
Speaker 5: It's a famous story because it has been turned into
Speaker 5: a movie, Agnes of God. It was a play, there
Speaker 5: was a book called Unholy Child, but they were all fictionalized.
Speaker 5: Baby in the Convent is the first, as far as
Speaker 5: I can tell, story of what actually happened using the
Speaker 5: character's real names. It's the first true crime treatment of
Speaker 5: this case. And part of that I think is because
Speaker 5: of its sensitive nature. But yeah, during the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 5: Our Lady of Lords Convent in Brighton was a quiet place.
Speaker 5: Its residents were all nuns, mostly teachers at local parochial schools.
Speaker 5: Very last place where you'd expect to have a crime scene.
Speaker 5: But it was Tuesday, April twenty seventh, nineteen seventy six,
Speaker 5: it was a crime scene. That was the day that
Speaker 5: thirty five year old sister Maureen Murphy, the former Carol A.
Speaker 7: Murphy.
Speaker 5: She was an eighteen year veteran of the convent and
Speaker 5: she was found bleeding heavily from the vagina in her
Speaker 5: room by her fellow nuns. Now Carol Murphy had been
Speaker 5: born in Rochester. She was a lifelong Rochesterian. Her dad
Speaker 5: had recently died, which may have been a psychological factor
Speaker 5: in what happened. Her mom, Helen, had moved to Florida.
Speaker 5: She had two brothers and a sister, and she she
Speaker 5: had a little little episode that year. She was a
Speaker 5: graduate of Nazareth Academy class of nineteen fifty seven, Lake
Speaker 5: Avenue in City of Rochester and the sisters of Saint
Speaker 5: Joseph ran Nazareth Academy. So if you wanted to go
Speaker 5: from high school graduate to being a nun, that was
Speaker 5: a smooth transition. And she took Maureen as her nun name.
Speaker 5: Excuse me now. In addition to becoming a nun, she
Speaker 5: attended Nazareth College, earned a Bachelor of Science degree in
Speaker 5: history nineteen sixty five and then a master's degree in education,
Speaker 5: and since the autumn of nineteen seventy five she'd been
Speaker 5: the administrator at Trinity Montessori School in Pittsburgh, which is
Speaker 5: posh sections in the county, and she was considered an
Speaker 5: expert in preschool education and was often consulted for advice
Speaker 5: from other parochial schools in the diocese, an advocate for children.
Speaker 5: Irony of all ironies. So back at the convent, Sister
Speaker 5: Marines found bleeding bled everywhere. One nun calls an ambulance
Speaker 5: and Sister Maureene is rushed to the hospital. A tiny
Speaker 5: woman four or eleven, normally less than one hundred pounds,
Speaker 5: and doctors quickly determined that Sister Maureene had just given birth.
Speaker 5: This was news to all of her neighboring nuns, who
Speaker 5: said they had no idea she was pregnant, and certainly
Speaker 5: had no idea how she got that way. So bizarrely,
Speaker 5: this stukes me one of the most bizarre things about
Speaker 5: the story. Instead of notifying police are calling an ambulance,
Speaker 5: the doctors at the hospital told the nuns who had
Speaker 5: brought Sister Marene in to go back to the convent
Speaker 5: and search for the baby. Those nuns did as they
Speaker 5: were told and quickly made a horrifying discovery. They found
Speaker 5: a lifeless male infant in a plastic waste basket that
Speaker 5: had been placed behind a bookcase and out of view
Speaker 5: in Sister Maureene's room.
Speaker 7: The baby had.
Speaker 5: A cloth stuffed in its mouth and down its throat.
Speaker 5: A blue woman's nightgown was tied around its neck, and
Speaker 5: the nuns who found the baby, they took it out
Speaker 5: of the waste basket, wrapped it in a blanket, and
Speaker 5: took it to Genesee Hospital, where it was pronounced dead.
Speaker 5: The ambulance attendants who had taken sister Maureene to the
Speaker 5: convent were asked if they signing suspicious when they were
Speaker 5: picking her up, and they said, oh, we made a
Speaker 5: cursory examination of the area, but we didn't see anything.
Speaker 5: We didn't make a thorough search. Concentration was on the
Speaker 5: bleeding woman. There was no thought that she'd just given
Speaker 5: birth because while she's a nun.
Speaker 6: So he went to doctor Edlund. The autopsy was done
Speaker 6: by doctor Edlund, and it's mandatory when there's a suspicious death.
Speaker 6: What were the results of the autopsy.
Speaker 5: Well, doctor Edlund performs the autopsy with doctor George Abbott,
Speaker 5: his assistant, and they found that the child weighed six
Speaker 5: pounds twelve ounces and had been born alive. He could
Speaker 5: tell that this had been the case because there were
Speaker 5: traces of oxygen in the infant flugs and intestinal track,
Speaker 5: and the child had lived, but only for a matter
Speaker 5: of minutes. The theory was that sister Maureen was freaking
Speaker 5: out and was afraid that her secret would be discovered
Speaker 5: when the child cried, and in order to keep the
Speaker 5: child from crying, she jagged it and asphyxiated it. About
Speaker 5: a weird coincidence. I don't know if you remember Beck
Speaker 5: in the book Nightmare in Rochester, we talked about a
Speaker 5: pet store that sold baby bunnies right across the street
Speaker 5: from a pedophile and there was an article in the
Speaker 5: newspaper about the baby bunnies the morning of one of
Speaker 5: the double initial murders. And we found out that the
Speaker 5: pet shop sister was sister Rita, who taught at Corpus
Speaker 5: Christie School and had been Michelle Maenza's teacher a year earlier. Well,
Speaker 5: it turns out that sister Rita is a neighbor of
Speaker 5: sister Marine, lives down the hall. And you know, we
Speaker 5: tried to get an interview with her because what but
Speaker 5: an amazing life hurts what odd proximity to tragedy she's had. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean, sister Rita and I feel like I feel
Speaker 5: like we're in the same club that the horrible things
Speaker 5: happened to people who are close to us.
Speaker 7: Yea.
Speaker 5: Anyway, just when they thought the situation couldn't get any freak,
Speaker 5: here doctors at the hospital tells Sister Maureene that she's
Speaker 5: had a baby and the baby has passed away, and
Speaker 5: she looks at them like they have two heads. She says,
Speaker 5: what baby. I wasn't pregnant. That's ridiculous. I'm a virgin,
Speaker 5: and then, as if on cue, she delivers the after birth.
Speaker 7: H yeah.
Speaker 5: So they do a canvassing of the convent. They can't
Speaker 5: find a single nun with whom Sister Maureene shared her secret.
Speaker 5: You couldn't find a single nun who suspected she was pregnant.
Speaker 5: They all knew she was putting on weight, and she said, well,
Speaker 5: you know when she does put on weight, it's always
Speaker 5: in the tummy. So there was a question were the
Speaker 5: nuns unusually unobservant or were they liars. It seemed hard
Speaker 5: to imagine them being liars. Pregnancy in just about every
Speaker 5: case is very difficult thing to mask, especially true when
Speaker 5: you're a tiny woman. Some thought that nuns had to
Speaker 5: know the only other possibility was that a nun being
Speaker 5: pregnant was so unthinkable that they couldn't think it. You know,
Speaker 5: when did you know something was wrong with sister Maureene,
Speaker 5: police asked, and the consensus was they first knew something
Speaker 5: was wrong the more of the birth. She called in
Speaker 5: six She didn't make it into work, said she had
Speaker 5: a tummy ache, and when they came at noontime to
Speaker 5: check on her, they found her in a pool of blood.
Speaker 5: So that law enforcement in Monroe County is starting to
Speaker 5: feel a little shell shocked. It was a bizarre time
Speaker 5: for them. Right at the same time that sister Mariane
Speaker 5: had her son, a seven year old Michelle McMurray was
Speaker 5: found dead outside her apartment building on Rochester's J Street.
Speaker 5: She'd been left alone by her young mom in the
Speaker 5: middle of the night, went to a corner bar to
Speaker 5: buy a pack of cigarettes and came back with a
Speaker 5: man and she was gone. Those thought that that was
Speaker 5: the fourth double initial murder turned out to be a
Speaker 5: separate case that was solved by DNA technology years later.
Speaker 5: And as I wrote about that with my buddy investigator
Speaker 5: Don Tubman in Nightmare in Rochester, there's also a serial
Speaker 5: lapist on the loose in Rochester, and some thought maybe
Speaker 5: this explained sister Maureene's jam. Since late March, three girls
Speaker 5: aged ten or seventeen had been raped in Rochester's nineteenth ward.
Speaker 5: Two college girls at the University of Rochester had been
Speaker 5: raped on campus at knife point, and now they had
Speaker 5: a baby in a convent. Maybe that was connected.
Speaker 7: But they did.
Speaker 5: An investigation into sister Maureen's recent past and they discovered
Speaker 5: that nine months before she gave birth, she'd gone to
Speaker 5: Connecticut on vacation and she stayed at her sister's summer house,
Speaker 5: and she dressed in civilian clothes and didn't necessarily say
Speaker 5: that she was a nun. And she met a man
Speaker 5: and two men from the District attorney's office and a
Speaker 5: cop went to talk to the guy in Connecticut to
Speaker 5: see what they could find out. And the guy said, look,
Speaker 5: I did not know she was a nun. I did
Speaker 5: not know she became pregnant, and I would appreciate it
Speaker 5: if my name is kept out of it.
Speaker 6: And it was wow, yeah, different times.
Speaker 5: In May one, nineteen seventy six, sister Marine is booked
Speaker 5: in her hospital bed on suspicion of murder, and what
Speaker 5: follows is young next to Pearl and Jimmy O'Dell. Yeah,
Speaker 5: one of the truly bizarre trials in Monroe County history.
Speaker 5: And we have you talk about it the coverage in
Speaker 5: Mosquito Point Road.
Speaker 6: You talk about attorney Charles Cremey coming in, and it's crucial,
Speaker 6: of course, what attorney and that attorney's strategy at trial.
Speaker 6: What does he set out to do at this trial?
Speaker 6: How does he try to portray this crime? And this woman.
Speaker 5: Well emphasizes the loss of blood, that that sister Maureen
Speaker 5: had bled a lot during childbirth, and that she was
Speaker 5: in such a state of shock due to the trauma
Speaker 5: of childbirth and the loss of blood that she could
Speaker 5: not be held responsible for her actions after the birth.
Speaker 5: And there seemed to be some merit in that, although
Speaker 5: my instincts tell me that there's a certain amount of
Speaker 5: lingering involved.
Speaker 7: I'm always suspicious of.
Speaker 5: People who remember everything except for committing murder. Right, and
Speaker 5: I must have I must have blacked out temporary insanity.
Speaker 5: But sister Maureene eventually does remember.
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Speaker 5: She's not a virgin, and she does remember that she
Speaker 5: was pregnant, and she remembers reading books to learn about pregnancy,
Speaker 5: but she never ever admits to remembering killing your child,
Speaker 5: although at one point.
Speaker 7: She says, I must have done it. I was the
Speaker 7: only one there.
Speaker 6: Mm hmm. It's interesting she being, yeah, it's interesting. She
Speaker 6: talks about intent. When we talk about intent to kill.
Speaker 6: They asked her about if she ever considered she knew.
Speaker 6: She does admit she was, She knew she was pregnant,
Speaker 6: Other people knew. She went to other people as well.
Speaker 6: What did she say she would do as an option?
Speaker 6: What were her plans with this baby? And when they
Speaker 6: asked her about abortion again, what was her response? We
Speaker 6: spoke to her intention.
Speaker 5: She was horrified at the thought of abortion. She said,
Speaker 5: I could never hurt a child. Her plan was to
Speaker 5: keep the baby, and although plans seems like a strong word,
Speaker 5: because she knew that in order to do that, she
Speaker 5: would have to leave the convent, and she had never
Speaker 5: made any plans to leave the convent. I think she
Speaker 5: had procrastinated. She thought she had a couple more weeks
Speaker 5: to go before she was going to give birth. The
Speaker 5: going into labor caught her by surprise, and she really
Speaker 5: didn't have any plans for the future. And as it
Speaker 5: turned out, because she she killed the child, so it's
Speaker 5: hard to take too soon seriously. Her plans to be
Speaker 5: a single mom, she said, really far away from there.
Speaker 5: She couldn't even admit that she was with child.
Speaker 6: Yet at trial too. One of the hurdles, and if
Speaker 6: we go back to the description of the crime scene
Speaker 6: as well, when they found the baby in that wastebasket
Speaker 6: with the nightgown wrapped around her neck and the cloth
Speaker 6: deep down her throat or reportedly a pair of panties
Speaker 6: or some cloth, how did they deal with it? How
Speaker 6: did the defense deal with those issues?
Speaker 5: Well, I think.
Speaker 7: The defense.
Speaker 5: Said that sister Marrinen at the time that she was
Speaker 5: killing the baby. Wasn't aware she was killing the baby.
Speaker 5: She was merely trying to keep the baby quiet because
Speaker 5: sister Rina had just come home and was outside the door,
Speaker 5: and the secret would be out as soon as the
Speaker 5: baby started to cry, and she you know the system.
Speaker 5: Mariene admitted that she remembered the baby being born, She
Speaker 5: remembered seeing his arm move, but she never admitted to
Speaker 5: hearing the baby make a sound, and that maybe because
Speaker 5: the baby didn't that the stuffing the cloth into the
Speaker 5: mouth was meant to silence the child, although it's hard
Speaker 5: to imagine the cloth getting quite that deep down the
Speaker 5: baby's throat without there being an intent to kill.
Speaker 7: That's just me.
Speaker 6: When you talk about the trial itself, she decided with
Speaker 6: her attorney not to have a jury and judge alone.
Speaker 6: It might seem obvious why, but tell us about that decision.
Speaker 5: Right, Well, they opt to have her guilt or innocence
Speaker 5: be determined solely by a judge. I suspect that's because
Speaker 5: they knew which judge was going to be presiding over
Speaker 5: the trial, and they felt that they would get a
Speaker 5: fair deal out of him. The end of the case
Speaker 5: is very very strange in that he deliberates, comes back,
Speaker 5: acquits her without comment, not guilty, walks out of the courtroom,
Speaker 5: and goes on vacation and never ever explains the reasoning
Speaker 5: behind his decision. And that one of the my favorite
Speaker 5: quotes is that there were of course nuns in the
Speaker 5: courtroom who were there in support of Sister Maureene, and
Speaker 5: one of them said the other, oh, I knew she
Speaker 5: didn't do it. It was not exactly what happened here,
Speaker 5: But I mean, I've expiracy theories that the Catholic Church
Speaker 5: made a sizeable contribution to the judge's re election campaign
Speaker 5: just to make it a little easier for him to
Speaker 5: make up his mind. And to be fair, I mean,
Speaker 5: who really wanted to see Sister Maureene put in prison?
Speaker 5: She had, I think, established a prison for herself that
Speaker 5: she would always have to live in for the rest
Speaker 5: of her life. Didn't make any difference if she was
Speaker 5: in jail or not.
Speaker 6: Yeah, was she a sympathetic And also she took the stand,
Speaker 6: which again doesn't happen all the time. It's very fair,
Speaker 6: and in this book you have many cases of the
Speaker 6: defendant taking the stand and very dramatic courtroom testimony. What
Speaker 6: was her testimony like in terms of sympathy? Which was
Speaker 6: the end result in terms of the jurors were a
Speaker 6: sympathetic and would that also allow for maybe the judges
Speaker 6: feelings as well?
Speaker 5: Oh sure, Oh sure. Sister Maureen could not be cuter.
Speaker 5: She is a very sympathetic character. She's soft spoken, she's sweet, pious.
Speaker 5: To equate her with the horrible thing that happened was very,
Speaker 5: very difficult for anyone to do, and she was She
Speaker 5: sounded naive but educated on the stand. I mean, she
Speaker 5: talked about reading books to learn about what was happening
Speaker 5: to her body, and she talked about her embarrassment to
Speaker 5: tell the other nuns about her situation. And she says
Speaker 5: that she started to feel otherworldly after she gave birth
Speaker 5: and described physically shock and how one might feel from
Speaker 5: extreme loss of blood, and some of it sounded a
Speaker 5: little bit rehearsed, but overall, uh, she it's hard to
Speaker 5: be angry with her. Nobody was ever angry with Sister Maureene.
Speaker 5: People instinctively felt sorry for her because she had made
Speaker 5: a mistake in Connecticut and over what must have been
Speaker 5: an agonizing nine months of keeping a secret. She never
Speaker 5: had the courage to face the dilemma.
Speaker 7: She was in.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm, yeah, I've had I've had people ask me, well,
Speaker 5: what happened to sister Maureene said, well, sister Maureen fell
Speaker 5: out of public life. She was never heard from again,
Speaker 5: and you know that's she is stuck with her own
Speaker 5: guilt forever.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, let's talk about another story again. All of these
Speaker 6: are close to home for you, but this one you
Speaker 6: got a message or aparton me. You spoke to your
Speaker 6: mother and oh right, there was a person you'd play
Speaker 6: baseball with, Dave Harmon, And then you were talking to
Speaker 6: your mother a few years later and she asked, do
Speaker 6: you remember this Dave Harmon? And you asked, why tell
Speaker 6: us about.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, that's a first time.
Speaker 5: The picture in the book of Dave Harmon and me
Speaker 5: together and our well, yeah, I think we were ten
Speaker 5: years old at the time. I was second basement, who
Speaker 5: was first basement, was tall. I remember him being a
Speaker 5: very good glove man. If my throat was in the dirt,
Speaker 5: he'd scoop it up. And we didn't go to the
Speaker 5: same school because he lived on the other side of Childie,
Speaker 5: but we saw each other as teenagers. A few times
Speaker 5: we ran into each other grocery stores or something. Whatever
Speaker 5: it was, said Hi. Then in nineteen eighty two, I
Speaker 5: was already living in New York City by that time,
Speaker 5: my mom calls me and says, you remember Dave Harmon.
Speaker 5: I said sure, no, why and she said he's been murdered.
Speaker 5: Now these were the days long before the internet. So
Speaker 5: my mom clipped out the article in the Democrat and
Speaker 5: Chronicle and mailed it to me and said that David
Speaker 5: graduated in nineteen seventy five, so he was a year
Speaker 5: younger than he went to all of that Nazarene College
Speaker 5: in Kankakee, Illinois, south of Chicago, and he was very
Speaker 5: involved in the Nazarene church. And he married a girl
Speaker 5: really pretty, a little bit of a bubblehead, named Melinda Lambert.
Speaker 5: They got married when they were barely twenty at the
Speaker 5: Grace Church of the Nazarene in North Chaila.
Speaker 7: And then they.
Speaker 5: Moved to Kansas, to Aleitha, Kansas, famous for being the
Speaker 5: residence of the killers and in cold blood when they
Speaker 5: committed those crimes, but it had become a church town.
Speaker 5: Nazarene church pretty much ran things it's a much bigger
Speaker 5: place now and the church doesn't have quite as much influence.
Speaker 5: And the article in the paper didn't give a lot
Speaker 5: of details. They said Dave died of massive head injuries
Speaker 5: inflicted with a blunt object during my home invasion. And
Speaker 5: for years that was all I knew. But later my
Speaker 5: interest was rekindled and I learned more details about the crime.
Speaker 5: And it was about two thirty am on February twenty eighth,
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty two, and the Harman's next door neighbor, Gale
Speaker 5: berg Strand, heard thumping noises on the other side of
Speaker 5: her bedroom wall. They came from the next apartment and
Speaker 5: she woke up her husband, but the sound stopped well.
Speaker 5: Gail couldn't get back to sleep. There's something sinister about
Speaker 5: the sounds, as if someone was beating a side of
Speaker 5: beef with a baseball back. About an hour and a
Speaker 5: half later, there's a loud knocking on the berg Strands
Speaker 5: front door, and Gail knew right away that it was
Speaker 5: connected to the flacking noise. And at the door is
Speaker 5: Melinda Harmon, Dave's wife, and she has a small bruise
Speaker 5: on her cheek and she seems on autopilot, she's in shock,
Speaker 5: and she told them that she and her husband had
Speaker 5: been attacked. So the bergshman's call the police and police arrived,
Speaker 5: and Melinda says a couple of black guys had broken
Speaker 5: into the apartment and assaulted her and her husband. She
Speaker 5: said that she and Dave were asleep when she was
Speaker 5: awoken at two twenty by the sound of her husband
Speaker 5: being attacked the two men. The two men had entered
Speaker 5: the house downstairs to her exciting glass door and which
Speaker 5: she had carelessly forgotten in the lock, and they demanded
Speaker 5: the keys to the patron's bank where Dave worked. So
Speaker 5: she gave the men the keys and she was taken downstairs. Now,
Speaker 5: she told the police she overheard one of the guys
Speaker 5: say to the other, I think I hit him too hard.
Speaker 5: I think I might have killed him. One man then
Speaker 5: struck her in the face and knocked her unconscious, and
Speaker 5: when she came to more than an hour later, she
Speaker 5: ran next door to call the police. All right, the
Speaker 5: cops said, let's go next door and see. I found
Speaker 5: Dave in bed dead and their first thought is that
Speaker 5: he'd been shot in the face with a shotgun. Was
Speaker 5: the most brutal crime scene these policemen had ever seen.
Speaker 5: Upon a closer examination, they found that he had been
Speaker 5: beaten in overkill fashion in the face and head with
Speaker 5: a round, hard object. So Gail next door was pretty
Speaker 5: close when she was imagining the baseball back hitting the
Speaker 5: side of beats. The scene communicated deep anger. Must be
Speaker 5: exhausting to hit a guy fourteen times like that, and
Speaker 5: Dave never saw it coming. He'd been attacked to his
Speaker 5: sleep and his brain matter was splattered across the bedroom wall.
Speaker 5: He'd been struck in the face between twelve and fourteen
Speaker 5: times seven and seven, just like Gale heard, and one
Speaker 5: of his eyeballs had been knocked from its socket and
Speaker 5: was found on the rug several feet from the bed,
Speaker 5: but the weapon was missing well. Melinda's treated at the
Speaker 5: scene for her minor injuries by an EMT who does
Speaker 5: not believe a word she's saying. This guy has seen
Speaker 5: injuries that caused a person to lose and there's tremendous swelling.
Speaker 5: He would expect a person who'd been knocked cold to
Speaker 5: have bleeding on the brain, partial amnesia, loss of balance.
Speaker 5: In the majority of cases where people are not cold,
Speaker 5: they're only out for a minute or two. To be
Speaker 5: knocked unconscious for over an hour, the injury would have
Speaker 5: to be traumatic. And here's this woman with a little
Speaker 5: bruise on her cheek. And also she's up and about
Speaker 5: and she's talking and functioning and asking cops if they
Speaker 5: want coffee. And it's not what you'd expect from a
Speaker 5: person with a concussion. So she claimed to have been
Speaker 5: in bed beside Dave when the attack began, that she
Speaker 5: has no blood on her face or head, and the
Speaker 5: only blood was on the bottom of her nightgown. That's
Speaker 5: indicated to the investigators that she's been standing a safe
Speaker 5: distance away when the splatter began. Her pillow, on the
Speaker 5: other hand, is well splattered and covered with blood.
Speaker 7: Sure, yeah so.
Speaker 5: And when police first arrive, Belinda doesn't seem overly concerned
Speaker 5: about her husband. It's like Reverend at Tenne. It's not
Speaker 5: in grief. She learned he was dead, and the first
Speaker 5: call she makes is not to her dad or to
Speaker 5: the church. She calls her and Dave's best friend, Mark Mangelsdorf,
Speaker 5: who comes over right away. And even though it's the
Speaker 5: middle of the night, Mark arrives with wet hair as
Speaker 5: if he just stepped out of the shower, and in
Speaker 5: charge of the homicide investigation is Detective Vernon Wilson of
Speaker 5: the Metropolitan Major Case Investigation Squad. Detective Wilson drops the
Speaker 5: bank key's angle completely and focuses his investigation as he should,
Speaker 5: on Melinda's relationship with Mark Mangelsdorf's Marks. Mark's a student
Speaker 5: at Nazarene College. He's he goes to school at the
Speaker 5: place where Melinda works. There's only a few blocks away
Speaker 5: from the Harmons. He can't really account for his whereabouts
Speaker 5: at the time of the murders, as he was home
Speaker 5: alone sleeping. Investigators asked around, and they learned that Mark
Speaker 5: was a college superstar who was expected to go far
Speaker 5: in life, really smart, really had his act together good,
Speaker 5: and that the Harmons and Mangelsdorf has been quite the threesome.
Speaker 5: Mark was good friends with both Dave and Melinda. Dave
Speaker 5: and Mark played hockey together. We know Dave's a jock,
Speaker 5: and sometimes it was weird because Mark's carr would be
Speaker 5: in the Harmon's driveway even though Dave's wasn't there. And
Speaker 5: the biggest complicated cating factor in the investigation is Melinda's dad,
Speaker 5: Jay Wilmer Lambert, and he's a big wig in Oleitha.
Speaker 5: He's an upper echelon official in the church and had
Speaker 5: a lot of elected officials afraid of him. And you
Speaker 5: couldn't get elected in Oletha without the church's approval, and
Speaker 5: Lambert had a lot to say about who didn't didn't
Speaker 5: get approved. So it appeared to Detective Wilson that Melinda's
Speaker 5: dad was doing his best to keep the investigation from
Speaker 5: following its natural course. Every time he wanted to interview Melinda,
Speaker 5: Lambert's screen bloody murder grabbed his daughter and dragged her away.
Speaker 5: Now I think in a lot of places Lambert would
Speaker 5: have been charged with obstruction of justice. But in Oleitha,
Speaker 5: his tactics work and no attempt is made to talk
Speaker 5: to Melinda, and the case goes cold for years and
Speaker 5: years and years. And then there's a new generation of
Speaker 5: law enforcement in Oleatha, which includes a relentless comp named
Speaker 5: Bill Wall two thousand and one. He gives the case
Speaker 5: of fresh look, and he decides to drop in unexpectedly
Speaker 5: on Melnda and Mark wherever they might be and see
Speaker 5: how they react to questions that should have been asked
Speaker 5: them long before I knew it was going to be
Speaker 5: a long road to hope because Melinda's remarried. She's a
Speaker 5: soccer mom living in a big house in a nice neighborhood.
Speaker 5: And Mark is a millionaire. He's an executive with a
Speaker 5: major corporation, and they can both afford excellent lawyers. And
Speaker 5: as is true if most of the stories in Mosquito
Speaker 5: point Road, the dramatic conclusion of the story takes place
Speaker 5: in a courtroom.
Speaker 6: You talk about the primitive forensic situation the police were
Speaker 6: in at the time. This is twenty years later and
Speaker 6: a fresh look at this is DNA part of that
Speaker 6: fresh look or is it just something that they say
Speaker 6: is part of this fresh look.
Speaker 7: Well, Bill Wall's really smart.
Speaker 5: He finds both of the suspects alone when he talks
Speaker 5: to them, so they don't have an opportunity to compare notes.
Speaker 5: In fact, they haven't seen each other in years. I
Speaker 5: don't know if you remember the story of double indemnity
Speaker 5: and postman always rings twice. Whenever couples get together the
Speaker 5: murder the husband, they always think that they're going to
Speaker 5: go on and live happily ever after. But that's not
Speaker 5: the case because it's hard to build a relationship around
Speaker 5: a shared murder, and Melinda and Bill go their separate ways.
Speaker 5: So Bill Wall takes on Melinda first, and she makes
Speaker 5: some coffee and they're sitting around and she says, we'll
Speaker 5: kind of tell us what happened that night, and she says, well,
Speaker 5: first of all, the guy came in, he was wearing
Speaker 5: a ski mask. I couldn't see who it was. And
Speaker 5: right away he knows that he's got her because the
Speaker 5: original story was that there were two black guys, no
Speaker 5: mention of a scheme mask. Now it's one guy wearing
Speaker 5: a scheme mask, and Melinda, who is doesn't seem to
Speaker 5: have a guilty bone in her body and her own
Speaker 5: bubbly guilt giggly way talks for a long time before
Speaker 5: she realizes that she should shut up and call a lawyer. Yeah,
Speaker 5: now with Mark Mangelsdorff, that they use a bluff because
Speaker 5: Mark knows right away he should have a lawyer president
Speaker 5: if he speaks at all, and he's probably not gonna
Speaker 5: say anything, but they tell him, you know, well, well
Speaker 5: we've we've got the new DNA technology, so we pretty
Speaker 5: much know what happened. And they convince Melenda to cut
Speaker 5: a deal and testify against Mark, and again I think
Speaker 5: they end up getting convictions out of the deal. But
Speaker 5: both of those killers are currently walking free hopefully listening
Speaker 5: to this killed my first basement.
Speaker 6: You talk about. Part of that is the the defense
Speaker 6: attorney Michael Skagell And he's famous for getting off Kennedy
Speaker 6: cousin for the murder of Martha Moxley in Greenwich, Connecticut.
Speaker 6: Uh So he's a prestigious lawyer and and that's why
Speaker 6: he's hired.
Speaker 5: I thought that Michael skagle was convicted.
Speaker 6: Well we anyway, I mean who is Yeah.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, rich kids don't go to prison forever.
Speaker 6: M hm. It was still a great outcome anyway. So
Speaker 6: that's the cemented his reputation.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the thing of the Martha Moxley case, of course,
Speaker 5: he's fascinating. But the thing about Michael Staekle is he
Speaker 5: made a crucial mistake. He explained evidence that the police
Speaker 5: had not yet found. Sure now you see he says that,
Speaker 5: you know, if you find any DNA in the lawn
Speaker 5: outside the Moxley house, that's because I used to climb
Speaker 5: up the tree and watch Martha through her bedroom window
Speaker 5: and masturbate. And the police are going, what, we didn't
Speaker 5: find any DNA in the lawn, but there was an
Speaker 5: admission like that. It tends to make the spidey sense
Speaker 5: go off in a detective.
Speaker 6: Now back to the prosecution set for or Melinda and Mark.
Speaker 6: You talk about the everything decided at these trials, and
Speaker 6: Mark has obviously a good lawyer. What happens they have
Speaker 6: separate trials? What happens with her trial on me?
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, some of his courtroom. Actually I would prefer
Speaker 5: people read for themselves.
Speaker 7: Uh, but they.
Speaker 5: Belinda, Belinda's not that quick on the update, and she
Speaker 5: says that she knows in her heart that Mark was
Speaker 5: the killer. Doesn't really explain how she's standing a safe
Speaker 5: differance away from the attack when it begins, or why
Speaker 5: it took so many blows. But why anybody was angry
Speaker 5: with with Dave Harmon in the first place? I mean,
Speaker 5: she did they were they went to a church where
Speaker 5: you couldn't you weren't supposed to get divorced. But what
Speaker 5: had Dave done to deserve this? I'm not I'm not
Speaker 5: sure I quite understand the deal. Why all the anger?
Speaker 5: If Mark and Melinda wanted to have an affair? Uh?
Speaker 5: All right, get a divorce, or just do it on
Speaker 5: the sly. As far as I could tell, Dave's big
Speaker 5: crime was he was putting on weight and Melinda no
Speaker 5: longer found him sexy, and she just found another tall
Speaker 5: guy who was going to start up with him, but
Speaker 5: she couldn't face the voice. And in this sense, it
Speaker 5: reminded me a little bit about Sister Maureen, that she's
Speaker 5: so afraid of the church that she's willing to commit
Speaker 5: the ultimate crime to avoid embarrassment in front of her
Speaker 5: religious community. Yeah, again does play a big part in
Speaker 5: this book, doesn't it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And the idea that divorce would be more shameful
Speaker 6: or too much of a shameful event. Meanwhile they contemplate murder,
Speaker 6: and also the idea that he goes on to again
Speaker 6: And we could say, oh, psychopathic, but it doesn't. It doesn't.
Speaker 6: It seems so strange that he can go on, have
Speaker 6: other children, have a life, have a successful business, and
Speaker 6: even the court seems to look at him that way,
Speaker 6: and he returns to the streets a free man. That
Speaker 6: he could compartmentalize that event and move on is incredible.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Well, I think that that Mark is a genuine sociopath.
Speaker 5: I suspect that he had the right stuff to make
Speaker 5: it in business, which involves some of the strong points
Speaker 5: that sociopas have. He doesn't feel conscious, he's superficially charming.
Speaker 5: Being tall helps in the corporate world as well. And
Speaker 5: he could also brutally kill a man without ever really
Speaker 5: losing any sleep about it. And his wife seemed faithful
Speaker 5: to him. She was looking forward to getting him out
Speaker 5: of prison as quickly as possible so they could go
Speaker 5: on with their lives and raise their children. Continue with
Speaker 5: the American Dream and how he didn't wreck his chances
Speaker 5: at the American Dream that night in the Harmon's apartment
Speaker 5: is beyond me.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I agree with you there. Now we have two
Speaker 6: more stories that we should just briefly summarize, the Blue
Speaker 6: Guardina and Pure Slash Evil before we have to let
Speaker 6: you go. But let's talk about those two stories, okay.
Speaker 7: Well.
Speaker 5: The Blue Guardenia Story is an article I wrote for
Speaker 5: five eight to five magazine in Rochester publisher and editor
Speaker 5: Jane Millerman good Lady, and it is about the mafia
Speaker 5: war that took place in the city of Rochester during
Speaker 5: the late seventies and eighties, and a fellow from New
Speaker 5: York named Joseph mad Dog Sullivan, who was a freelance
Speaker 5: professional killer, and by the time he got to Rochester
Speaker 5: in nineteen eighty one, he was already a legend. He's
Speaker 5: the only man ever to escape from Attica Prison. He
Speaker 5: once escaped from a jail on Governor's Island in New
Speaker 5: York Harbor by swimming to Brooklyn, and it was winter
Speaker 5: at the time, and as a pro killer he was
Speaker 5: the best. He at least thirty notches on his gun,
Speaker 5: including Westy's boss Mickey. And he's brought into Rochester by
Speaker 5: his old football buddy at Attica who needs a guy
Speaker 5: hit a guy named Johnny Flowers Fiorino, And the things
Speaker 5: are a little bit complicated by the fact that surprise, surprise,
Speaker 5: it's December and Rochester and there's a big snowstorm and
Speaker 5: the murder takes place in the parking lot of the
Speaker 5: Blue Gardenia restaurant, which sounds like a film noir movie
Speaker 5: I've ever heard one. And he is with a Rochesterian
Speaker 5: who we call Hulk, and Hulk is a bodybuilder, not
Speaker 5: terribly bright, but he knows Rochester streets and he cannot
Speaker 5: id Fiorino, so that Sullivan will know he's killing the
Speaker 5: right man. But once the murder is accomplished, Hulk loses.
Speaker 7: His cool and.
Speaker 5: Drives in the middle of the snowstorm out of the
Speaker 5: Blue Guardians parking lot into the middle of Empire Boulevard
Speaker 5: and Irondi Quoit, right in front of an Arondi Quoit
Speaker 5: policeman who sees a car coming out of a bar
Speaker 5: parking lot, you know, driving erratically and figures he's got
Speaker 5: a drunk driver. But he ends up, of course, running
Speaker 5: into true trouble and there's a big shootout. And the
Speaker 5: other story, Pure Slash Evil, is about murder of a
Speaker 5: beautiful woman named Stephanie Joey Kobchinsky, and she's a little
Speaker 5: bit famous. Even before she became famous for being a victim,
Speaker 5: she was a very talented violinist, performed in public many times.
Speaker 5: Grew up in New Jersey and she had a job
Speaker 5: in nineteen ninety one as a music teacher. Has three
Speaker 5: grammar schools in the town of Greece, and she lived
Speaker 5: in the Newcastle of Departments, also in the time of Greece,
Speaker 5: where the super was a piece of human garbage named
Speaker 5: Eda Larabee. He would be the evil part of the title,
Speaker 5: and the story of Larabine and poor Stephanie is the
Speaker 5: final story in the book.
Speaker 6: Now, this is certainly a compilation of six fascinating historical
Speaker 6: true crime stories and so close to your childhood home
Speaker 6: and connection to you geographically but yet personally. We mentioned
Speaker 6: in the title that three of the killers are female. Again,
Speaker 6: how rare is some of these stories with the predominant
Speaker 6: killers and such savage killers are female. And also that
Speaker 6: the idea of these killers being female, but also the
Speaker 6: trials themselves and these people testifying at trials and these
Speaker 6: dramatic court cases involving these women. How unusual all the
Speaker 6: stories that you've done. How unusual are some of these
Speaker 6: stories that you present in this six fascinating historical true
Speaker 6: crime stories.
Speaker 5: They're they're very rare when women kill, they because they're
Speaker 5: they're often at a physical disadvantage with their intended victim.
Speaker 5: They tend to use passive methods. The women tend to
Speaker 5: poison mm HM and to have one of one of
Speaker 5: the female murderers wielding a metal object, a second standing
Speaker 5: by while her boyfriend smashes her husband's head to a pulp,
Speaker 5: and the third killing a perfectly innocent newborn child. It's
Speaker 5: very rare, and it's hard to believe that wasn't my
Speaker 5: intent when I I've started to put these stories together,
Speaker 5: I really was coming at it geographically. The fact that
Speaker 5: we had so much religion and so many female killers
Speaker 5: is a bizarre coincidence. Although you know that's the kind
Speaker 5: of thing you liked, and you got to buy the
Speaker 5: book because it's there, even if that wasn't my original intent.
Speaker 6: You also quote the wilderness behind your childhood house was
Speaker 6: a hotbed for violent crime, unfortunately for some, but fortunately
Speaker 6: for the readers of your books.
Speaker 7: Listen it well, Thank you, Dan.
Speaker 5: I try to tell these stories largely because there are
Speaker 5: lessons to be learned here. Now, I mean somewhere out there,
Speaker 5: I'm hoping is a woman who is unhappy with her
Speaker 5: husband and has a boyfriend, and the boyfriend saying, you
Speaker 5: know that life would be a lot better if he
Speaker 5: wasn't around. I hope they gives a second thought to
Speaker 5: doing committing murder, that the easier ways to go about it.
Speaker 5: I hope somewhere out there there's a a young woman
Speaker 5: who's who's pregnant and is embarrassed to let anybody know
Speaker 5: her condition and is wondering what she's going to do
Speaker 5: after she gives birth, who realizes that the baby is
Speaker 5: a precious human being and deserves to be treated that way,
Speaker 5: despite the circumstances of his origin. And you know, I
Speaker 5: hope that there's there's a young woman out there whose
Speaker 5: husband is older and mean to her, who knows enough to,
Speaker 5: you know, get the heck out of the house, not
Speaker 5: to wait around until that kind of relationship reaches its
Speaker 5: inevitable end.
Speaker 6: Yes, certainly, it's certainly fascinating stories, fascinating trials, and then
Speaker 6: even more fascinating verdicts. So this is a credible treat.
Speaker 6: Mosquito Point Road, Monroe County, murder, and certainly mayhem. Thank
Speaker 6: you very much, Michael Benson. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 7: Thank you for those that.
Speaker 6: Might want to take a look. Well, thank you for
Speaker 6: those that might want to take a look. Tell us
Speaker 6: about your website and Facebook pages.
Speaker 5: If so, well, yeah, you can find me on Facebook
Speaker 5: as author Michael Benson. And I'm I'm the Michael Benson
Speaker 5: with the white beard, like recently shaved because of quarantine
Speaker 5: and heat, but I'm the guy with the white beard
Speaker 5: and the Mosquito Point Road, and all of my books
Speaker 5: are available on Amazon dot com, where you can also
Speaker 5: look me up and put all of my books on
Speaker 5: one page for yourself.
Speaker 6: Well, just before I go, I want to apologize once
Speaker 6: again because it must be built a second or third time,
Speaker 6: to the beautiful town of Chili for its name, CHAILI
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 5: Oh you know, and we're still used to it.
Speaker 6: Oh, thank you, thank you so much, thank you, Michael Bennetton,
Speaker 6: thank you. Good night, take her good night.