Speaker 1: Hi, this is David Rowntree and you're listening to Unknown
Origins Radio.
Speaker 2: We live in a world filled with unknown.
Speaker 1: You can't handle it through.
Speaker 2: I'm as glad as hell. I'm not tying taking this anymore.
Speaker 3: Game over, man, Game over.
Speaker 1: I'm not your night, I'm not yours.
Speaker 2: We will not go quietly into the night.
Speaker 3: We will not vanish without a bite.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Unknown Origins.
Speaker 2: Three and good evening, everybody. Welcome to another edition of
Unknown Origins Radio here on the Dark Matter Radio Network.
I'm your host, Mark Johnson, and joining me is our
co host, mister Bruce Pearson. How are you tonight? Bruce?
Speaker 1: Loving the new and improved Unknown Origins Radio. Ready to
rock and roll?
Speaker 2: Mark, you know we've got the whole sound system set
up tonight. I'm very excited. But before we get to that,
we have to introduce our executive producer, Miss Irene Alan
Block is also going to be joining us tonight. How
are you tonight, Irene? I'm fine? How are you doing?
Speaker 1: Good?
Speaker 2: Just for you folks if you couldn't tell by the accent,
Irene is coming to us all the way from Wales, UK,
so we're going to be keeping her up a little
bit late tonight.
Speaker 1: Yep, we'll have to be on our best behavior.
Speaker 4: The boss is in. I thought she was an auzur
vy Jean. I'm sorry, I miss I misinterpreted that an accent.
I got it all wrong. I'm sorry about that.
Speaker 1: I thought it was zu beki. Still, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, anyway, welcome Irene. We're glad to have you
on board. This should be a lot of fun tonight.
We've got a great show coming up, so this will
be a lot of fun.
Speaker 5: So that's good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's going to be a good show tonight. And
we've got a great guest coming up and we'll be
introducing him in just a few minutes. I just wanted
to put a little something out there. This has been
a really weird and kind of horrible week down in Virginia.
I know a lot of people were following that live
newscast the young reporter and her cameraman who were murdered
by a disgruntled ex employee. And you know, if you
haven't been following on that, it was tragedy because it
happened live on the air. And this guy, yeah, it's
I don't know. I'm trying to like remain a little
calm because there's so many different ways that I can
rant about this, not only with the guy obviously emotionally disturbed,
claiming that you know, well she made a racist comment.
Well that was you know, his justification for committing killing
two people and wounding a third and then trying to
kill himself. Obviously that there was some issues there. But
I just want to put out there, you know, our
thoughts and prayers go out to the victim's families, you know,
to get through this tough time. It really is a terrible,
terrible situation.
Speaker 4: Well I couldn't you know, this hit struck you know,
a chord with me because as you know, I started
out as a you know, cameramen and a news reporter
and then an anchor out in the Southwest, And I
gotta tell you a lot of times when you're covering
live stories, there's a fair amount of danger around. I mean,
I knew over my career two chopper cameramen who both died,
one in LA and uh and one down in Texas
in helicopter crashes.
Speaker 1: And they were both newsmen. You know, they weren't even
flying the bird.
Speaker 4: But it you know, you're always in the middle of
live breaking action and it's a lot of tragic, uh
and dangerous situations. That's one thing to deal with with
fires and building collapses.
Speaker 1: And all kinds of issues.
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, ice covered roads, a guy standing out
there or waiting for a truck to come and clip them,
and those kind of things are you know, something at
least you can predict the danger of the situation. But
this was totally random and out of control. And you know,
I don't know if there's any way to preclude this
kind of stuff. I really believe that as horrible as
it is when you know when your tickets punched, there's
not a lot of way to prevent something like this.
And in terms of protecting yourself, it's the luck of
the drawer or fate or karma or whatever you want
to call it. It's horrible and to have it happen
on the ear is just disgusting.
Speaker 2: Well, they're really enraging. Thing is how politicized its being,
and with today's social media, you can't you know, both sides,
left and right are really diving into this. You know,
as somebody who finds himself usually planted either firmly in
the middle or way outside of the box and not
having anything to do with the mainstream. You know, I
just look at it that you know, this was a
mental health issue. This was not a gun's fault, Adam
and object's fault. Now I know. Actually, Irene and I
have had many debates about gun control or having guns
because living in the UK, you know, they don't have
guns over there, not for the most part. You could
get one if you get a permit or a license
for it. And it's much different attitude in Europe, and
a lot of Europeans look at us like, oh, it's
those gun crazy Americans again, But I look at it.
It's not the gun crazy Americans. It's the crazy Americans.
And this is what I feel is really the heart
of the issue here. But I don't know, there's going
to be a lot of debate on both sides, and
you know, I don't want to take up too much
of our show tonight debating that because it's a passionate subject.
But just again, our thoughts and prayers go out to
those family members.
Speaker 4: I think the unfortunate truth is, no matter where you
fall down on that argument, there's no way in this
country you're ever going to put that Genie back in
the bottle, and it's unless you really eliminate all of
the guns in the country, or virtually all of them,
you're not going to stop it. I mean, Chicago has
the stiffest gun control regulations in the country, and you know,
their murder rate is just astronomical. So I don't think
there is a good answer. Once again, if it's a
different country, you know, you can't evolve the country back before.
You know, you can't turn back time and prevent the
guns from being here. And it's not good. We have
raised the militaristic level across the country. Police departments are
highly armed now with all kinds of crazy weapons, and
so are the bad guys, and so it just keeps
spiraling upwards. And like you said, this is a mental
health issue. There's no way you're going to keep people
from you know, going off their trolley. And if I
can quote my father some of his rather interesting observations
back then it was five million, he had seven billion
people in the world. There's chances are a couple of
them are going to be off their trolley, and so,
you know, unfortunately now, I think one of the issues
is because of social media and media communications everybody is
aware of it instantly, and that makes it even seem
more prominent than it would have been in the past,
where it would take a while for that. You know,
a murder in Chicago may not have ever been put
in a printed in a paper in Washington, d C.
Now it's obviously well known on CNN and fifty other outlets.
So I think that has an impact to your perception.
Is it's a lot more frequent than it was in
the past, and statistically it really isn't. But that doesn't
diminish the nature of it, in the horror of it,
and it certainly doesn't minimize those who, you know, take
perhaps Irene's position that, you know, the elimination of guns
might be one of the answers. I just don't think
it's a practical solution anymore.
Speaker 2: So Well, just before we get really into anything else
like that, well, we're going to sidetrack because I think
we have a great guest tonight. Don't want to waste
any more of his time. We want to bring him in.
We've had this gentleman on the air with us over
three years ago, so it's been a long time coming
to have him back on. And since we have so
many brand new listeners. I think you're going to be
in for a treat. Our guest tonight is Jeff Mudget
and Jeff is the author of the book Bloodstains. And
what really is unique about Jeff is he is also
the great grandson of the most notorious early serial killer
in American history, AHH Holmes. So we want to welcome
Jeff to the program. How are you tonight, Jeff.
Speaker 6: Mark, I'm just fine, And I got to tell you
it's a pleasure getting to meet you again, Bruce and Irene,
and it's an honor being on your show. I've looked
forward to it for quite a while.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: Well, we're really happy to have you on. You said
you want to say some bers.
Speaker 1: No, I just want to thank you for those kind thoughts.
Speaker 4: I mean, you've got an interesting background and we're really
looking forward to talking to you about this whole piece
of history which is so unique and so amazing.
Speaker 1: So glad to have you here. We appreciate it.
Speaker 6: Thanks well.
Speaker 2: So what I'd like to have you do, Jeff? If
you can start off for those people who may not
be aware of your story, tell us a little bit
about your background and how did you find out about
your family history and your relation to this man who
was best known as H. H. Holmes.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I was a normal California trial attorney, had a
little business in San Francisco, separated apart from the law.
I had a nice house overlooking the Bay.
Speaker 2: I'd worked.
Speaker 6: I had gone to school at University San Diego to
get my degrees, worked hard, prospering in the American way,
and one night at dinner, which I try to accurately
describe in my book, my grandfather revealed that he'd kept
a secret from the entire family for over sixty years,
a secret that he now thought it was time for
him to reveal. And he told us that our ancestor
are my great great grandfather. My grandfather's grandfather was the
most notorious, evil, genius killer in American history. H. Holmes.
His real name was Herman Webster Mudget. He went by H. H.
Speaker 1: Holmes.
Speaker 6: And my grandfather decided that the burden was just too
much and he needed to get it off his shoulders
before he died, and he told the family and my book,
Mark Bruce Irene, is about the why the why someone
becomes that kind of killer. Now you can a lot
of books great books by great authors, The Devil in
White City, The Torture Doctor Deranged about what HH Holmes
was my book tries to stay away from that. I tried.
I tried to talk with my readers about why someone
who was so smart, so brilliant, one of the highest
IQ's every quartered at the University of Michigan Medical School,
someone who could have been a Louis Pasteur, decided to
be the real life doctor Frankenstein, but right here in America,
in Chicago, which to me is still amazing. And I've been,
I've been, I've been talking about this story for over
three years. As you mentioned, Yeah, I read the books.
Speaker 2: And I read the book back when uh the uh,
when we first had you on the show. And I
have to say, for if anybody I view want a
great read, please pick up the book. And I'm not
just saying that because Jeff is on the show. I
really thoroughly enjoyed it. I love the writing stuff and
how you delved into this whole mystery of Herman Webster Mudget,
who was this brilliant, brilliant person, but there was something
seriously wrong with him, I mean, for what he started
to get into. I mean when you found out that
you were related to the serial killer. I mean, what
was your initial reaction?
Speaker 6: Oh god, the initial reaction with my brother and my
cousins sitting around. You know, we were the normal American
male punch each other in the shoulder, banter back and
forth about it, and we were waiting for Grandma's dessert,
so you know, we shoved it off. The next day
when I woke up, it started affecting me immediately, and
it started to the point where I was I knew
my life, my characteristics were, I had idiosyncrasies, I had
differences from their people. Now people asked me often, why
would you write a book broadcasting that your lineage was
this evil? I mean, this was the definition of evil.
This wasn't this wasn't a psychotic, he wasn't crazy. This
was a man who decided to be evil. When I
when I answer that question now, and for the first
three years, I didn't know how to do that. Now
I tell them, listen, my family should be studied. None
of my family after him committed a crime, let alone
at jaywalking. They were military heroes, they were politicians, they
were journalists, they were scientists. No one they all paid
their taxes. No one committed a crime, and this is
an example that genetics and DNA were not predispositioned to
commit crime. It's a choice we make. And now I'm
quite proud of my family and where we've gone, having
this as our cornerstone as where we came from, because
no one can deny we came from the absolute worst.
Speaker 2: You came from the worst, and yet nobody else in
your family was like that. And so do you feel.
I know, there's been a lot of studies on the
criminally insane or people we look at that our sociopaths, psychopaths.
I took enough psychology in college that I know a
little bit about it. But you know, these people who
have absolutely no remorse, no feelings for other human beings,
and they could kill without pity, without you know, even
blinking an eye. And Holmes was truly one of the
most horrific of the serial killers because of the tortures
he would put people through, and not only just physical tortures,
the mental tortures before he killed them. Truly an evil individual.
And yet what do you think would make somebody like that?
Do you think he just chose to be that way?
Speaker 6: You know, Mark, now now we're getting Now we're getting
into a realm where maybe Irene could step in and help.
But this has to do with you and I trying
to decide what Freud considered or was his intent. This
man had such an intellect to try to try to
discover his intent, I think is I certainly can't. All
I know was he was psychopathic. There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 6: I know all three of you have researched what that means.
Speaker 2: That term.
Speaker 6: As a matter of fact, it was designed that term
for Holmes. It was also a killer was designed for
Holmes because they didn't have anything else to describe this monster. Now,
I don't think he was psychotic. I don't at all,
but there's no doubt that he was psychopathic. Now I'm
not an expert in the field enough to tell you
the exact differences between those and what makes a human
being a psychopath and not a psychotic. All I know is,
at any moment, Bruce, this man could have decided to
be your doctor, and he could have been a great one.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I think in an effort to try to
paint a more rounded and non monolithic picture him, because
I think this is important in the total understanding of who.
Speaker 1: This guy was.
Speaker 4: There's other aspects that showed that he was not only
had a predilection to violence. He did the whole insurance
scam thing. And correct me if I've missed.
Speaker 1: Any of the details of the master at it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, twelve thousand bucks for trying to do a deal
with a corpse. He was a school teacher. He did
a scam with the when I guess I'm not sure
what town it was in, but I know he taught
in Clinton County, New York. And it's interesting I live
in Clinton, New Jersey, so maybe we have something in common.
Speaker 1: I hope not.
Speaker 4: But Mark would argue that point. But having said that,
he did. He he forged his second father in law's
name on some deeds.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: He did a take the money and run deal with
one of the stores that he worked with, you know,
took took a powder.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: So, so he really was a kind of broad spectrum
of uh of crime and corruption beyond the most terrific
and poigning point, and that is, of course, the murders
and the torture and and disposing of the bodies and
all that. But you know, as you said, here's a
brilliant guy who's uh, who's got an incredible amount of
mental capacity, But man, he's just got some wiring that's
screwed up up in the upper balcony there. And so
it's not just a violent person. And we could find
people like that. Look at people serial killers like Ted Bundy.
Look at how charming and intelligent he was. And I believe,
with all due respect, I believe he was an attorney also,
wasn't he?
Speaker 1: But I digress.
Speaker 4: But the interesting thing is that this was not a
monolithic killer who was only involved in breaking the law
in a very horrible and heinous, you know, a horrible way.
He broke the law many times before that. Maybe he
was just finding his niche where he felt comfortable. What's
your thoughts on that.
Speaker 6: Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
It was a man who not only enjoyed torturing and
experimenting upon living people down in his basement, which we'll
get into later, but he also loved living elegantly anything
expensive he wanted. This was a man who made three
or four hundred thousand dollars a year in the eighteen nineties,
which I haven't I haven't tried to run that out
to what it would be the equivalent now, but I
would imagine it's ten twenty thirty million dollars.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah. He loved to travel, he loved to have valais.
Speaker 6: He had assistance with him, which makes him so different
than the other killers you were mentioning. He had men
helping him commit serial murders, which I don't know if
there's ever been another like that.
Speaker 1: That's an interesting point. How is he Is there any
indication of.
Speaker 4: How he was able to keep these guys quiet so
that somebody didn't rat him out, because I you know,
in reading the book, you understand, you know how he
had to have accomplices to carry this out, and certainly
the disposal to bodies was one area where he could
do it all himself. Do you can you shed some
light on how he was able to keep these guys
in line?
Speaker 1: Was it just by buying them off? It was the
money that good that you know nobody ratted him out?
Speaker 6: You know, I have a theory, it's way out there.
But the New York Times wrote about at the turn
the century there were people that considered Holmes the devil.
I would think that if we had the chance to
ask them, and they gave honest responses that these men
considered him something of a god, of a devil that
they honored, obeyed, and respected.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 2: He was obviously very charismatic, not only because he was
so learned going to medical school.
Speaker 1: He was a doctor.
Speaker 2: He achieved his doctor and was a practicing MD. And
that just really blows me away. And of course he
used that to his advantage later on. But you see,
he was also he was charming to women. He was
charming to people in general, and they had absolutely no
clue to the horrific actions that he was capable of.
Speaker 6: You know, he had four or five wives, maybe more.
Mine was the only legal one because he never divorced
my grandmother. I write about him visiting her asking for divorce,
her refusing. Her name was Clara. She had my great
grandfather there with her as a little boy when he
visited him standing outside on the walkway, staring in the
windows for hours, trying to decide what to do about
her refusal to divorce him. She finally he finally just
left let her live. And that's why I'm here talking
with you tonight. So it's like I said earlier, to
try to make up his mind for us to discuss
what was in that head of his is very difficult.
All I know is that he was pure evil. There
was no remorse. He lied about remorse. He lied about
remorse in his interview to the Hurst Papers in his
prison cell awaiting execution. He lied about evil and his
remorse on the at the at the trial which he
fired his own lawyers and conducted the defense himself.
Speaker 1: Now she your your great great grandmother, went back to
New Hampshire after that incident, right, I mean she never
left return he left.
Speaker 6: She never medical Michigan and then Chicago for medical school.
He knew he had legal problems, although I don't quite
understand why this man was concerned with any laws. He
asked her for divorce. She refused. But then, like you said,
he was very charismatic. He had hundreds of mistresses, so
no telling how many children you know from his ex.
Speaker 4: Colleagues that, yeah, I mean see, and you know, you
look at some modern or recent other examples of brilliant
people that just go in the wrong direction. I mean,
one could argue that, you know, psychos like Mengela and
the experiments that they canted on human beings with absolute
clearly you know, uh, complete uh and utter inhumane look
at the people that are treatment of the people that
that he massacred and disfigured and and killed that It's
it's one of those, uh situations where there's a thin
line between a genius in a cycle. I mean, that's
that's the you know, the doctor Frankenstein is the guy.
He's brilliant, but you know it's in a twisted way,
and he takes that brilliance and and just goes completely.
Speaker 1: Aberrant with it. It's it's a scary proposition. Uh.
Speaker 4: But he was clearly and I mean to excel and
be the highest IQ or highest performing individual in medical
school is certainly in any other forum would be a
great honor. And this guy used it to I mean
things like how he built built, you know, to have
the tradesmen you know, fired and compartmentized the work so
nobody knew what was really going on, uh with the
with the various contractors. I mean, we'll talk about that
more detail, but Uh, he was a very very highly
planned individual and what he carried out, and clearly, if
he got away with it for as long as he did,
I guess if he hadn't tripped up the wrong guy
another crook. What was that guy's name, Hedge Hedgeworth or Hedgepath.
I guess he probably would have gotten on along a
great A great.
Speaker 1: Number of people would have died. Perhaps.
Speaker 6: I love the way you have described it because I
read an article an essay by Freud once who tried
to explain how as your intellect went up on these
geniuses that level, that line between genius and crazy becomes
thinner and thinner to where it's very easy to cross
over at the top. And I certainly don't know what
it's like up at that top line, but down below
where we normal people are, the line between normal and
crazy is this very strong, heavy concrete wall. But as
you move up, it gets thinner and thinner. And Freud
tried to explain that.
Speaker 4: I can only relate to personal observation, and this is
not meant to disparage anybody.
Speaker 1: But for a number of years I was.
Speaker 4: Doing television contract where corporate work down at Bell Labs
in Murray Hill. And I have to tell you with
it because it would sound very insulting, and it's not
meant to be. But there were some very unique individuals
in the cafeteria at Bell Labs in Murray Hill, and
I won't say anything more than that, but these were,
you know, undoubtedly brilliant people, but they had some very
quirky you know, dress codes and the way they ate
and what they did and with their plates, and there
was some pretty creepy stuff going on there. I never
chose to eat in the cafeteria if I could avoid it.
Speaker 1: And I'm not over exaggerating. It was kind of a
well known.
Speaker 4: Anomaly, if you will, about working there as a contractor
or freelance employee. And so I think that bespeaks these
people are on another plane, and maybe the social skills
that you know, maybe we all try to adhere to
in society don't really mesh too well with their level
of mental capabilities. I don't know what the answer is,
but I've seen that firsthand to some degree in my observation,
and I may be completely incorrect, but it doesn't surprise me.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of people that.
Speaker 4: Are operating on such a high level that they just
don't get it and don't interact real well in social settings.
And I think that this is an extreme Perhaps I
would offer the suggestion that may this is an extreme
depiction of that kind of anomaly with these people. I
don't know, it seems to make sense.
Speaker 2: I agree, Jeff, with the research that you did and
what you talked about in the book was not only
you found out about it through the family, but you
you had eventually according to the book. And this is
something I want to ask you, and you know you
can tell us to whatever you're willing to tell us.
I know that there was a lot of the book
that you you novelized in order to get the whole
story out and work on the facts, and I know
sometimes you may have played a little bit with some
fictional aspects to it. But in the book you mentioned
about finding some of these old diaries of Holmes's, So
I have to really ask you, did you really find
those diaries or did you put a lot of what
you knew together the story from other types of research.
Speaker 6: You know, I decided to write my book based on
a true story rather than what so many novelists do
these days, Mark with the Truman Capodi in Cold Blood model,
where they call their books nonfiction and then admit at
the end of the book that they've made certain parts up.
I've never agreed with that. I have conjecture in my book.
I have theories in my book. There are gaps in
the Home story over and over again. I mean every
week now we have something coming in to fill in
another gap about Holmes. And as Hollywood grows, well, they're
falling in love with the story right now. I mean,
American Horror Story just admitted that they're using the Murder
Castle for their episodes this year, despite denying it earlier.
You've got DiCaprio, You've got Scorsese, going to make maybe
the most expensive epic ever made from this monster. I
decided to write my story based on a true story.
I would not answer questions about it's something a fact
or not. I would prove those portions of my story
true with evidence, because that's what I used to do
for a living. And that's why I'm going to prove
that he was the murderer of Catherine Etto's one of
the victims for Jack the Ripper. We're going to prove
he was never executed, that it was the greatest hoax
and fraud ever committed in American history, his execution. And
we're going to also see if I can get one
of the ghost stories, one of the paranount normal investigators
like ghost stories or ghost adventurers, who I'm hoping are
listening to your show tonight, and I challenged them last
week on Coast to Coast. You know, instead of these
little houses that you're investigating, let's go down into the
basement at sixty third in Wallace, where Harper's Magazine said,
if ever life after death is going to be proved,
it will be in Chicago at sixty third and Wallace.
And I tried to write about in the book there
is an energy in that basement. And I didn't believe
in ghosts. I didn't believe in the supernatural. I didn't
believe in God. Before I went down those steps an
hour later, I believed in all three. And I'm just
dying to see one of these big stories with these
big stars that they have willing to go down there
with me and prove to the world that there is
such a thing as an energy after death. And I
think we can do it.
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, on that note, I will say,
we might have some connections that could help you in
that department. So we'll talk off air about that. You're
going to say something burse.
Speaker 4: Well, no, I was just going to offer, Yeah, I'll
contact a very close friend of mine, and we'll see
if we can put you in touch with that and
make that happen.
Speaker 1: I'm sure we can.
Speaker 4: I just spoke to him this afternoon and we'll discuss
that off the air, and well, you know what, there's
no better way to find it out than to go
out there and do it. I think that's a fascinating concept.
And you know, well, you've got to go into the
detail at some point in the In this evening about
I hope you got a lot of jackhammer time, because
if you're going to open up that grave and prove
that there's nobody in it, it'll be interesting. And I
and I you know, having been an investigative journalist, it's
funny because you're in Chicago, and I hope, I hope
Eraldo gets a good whiff of what happens when you
really try to do the job right. I mean, the
whole thing with Capone's Hidden Treasure was an interesting promotion,
but very little else. So I wish you a lot
of luck in that. But I think that's a great
way to contact Let's have the facts come out.
Speaker 6: You know, I've been contacted by the Smithsonian and they
absolutely don't want this to be another Geraldo. They want
to take control of the evidence. They want to see
that it's handled properly scientifically. They've been reading my story,
and you know, I got to tell you, I'm quite
proud of the energy they're willing to put into this.
As soon as we break that tomb open, they're quite
they're quite questioning what remains will be left after he
was buried in cement all those years, or whoever was there.
They're going to I'm going to offer up tissue. They're
going to they're going to supervise the DNA comparisons with
what's in that tomb, and then we'll be able to
stand up to the world and I'll say either wait
a minute, I was a fool. It was him, he
was the one that was executed. Or I'll get to say,
see just like on just like on the radio show
with Mark and Bruce and Irene. See, I told you
it wasn't him ever ever after, And I've got some
stories now to tell you about what he did after
that period, which will make the first book look like
a comic strip.
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me throw this out there for
you then, Jeff, and again, this isn't like questioning your story,
your credibility. But I want to throw this out there
just because I know people are going to be asking
me this question, and that is you're told that he
is a member of your family family line, do you
have the documentation to prove that he was or is
this family history being passed down. The reason I asked
that is if they try to use your DNA sample
to do a match, what if he isn't a blood relative.
Speaker 6: Oh it's a great question, and that's the type of
thing that evidence needs, that you need to establish those links. Now,
when I first wrote the bookmark It's funny you should
say that I had quite a few challenges, just like
I do now stating that he was the murder of
Catherine Etto. As you can imagine the challenges I get
every day now. But back then, we had a challenger
who was writing another book about Holmes, who went to
ancestry dot com. They did a very rapid check, made
a mistake, and then they put out to the world
that I wasn't even related to HH Holmes. Well, I
had seen the genealogy that my grandmother had done. I
knew my grandfather, I knew my great grandfather who was
Holmes's son, and there was no question in my mind.
But we hired an outfit that put together one plus
one equals equals to two plus two equals four and
there's no there's no question that that's that's where we
came from, and we can prove it absolutely.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 4: I think it needs to be said also that from
my perspective, the fact that you know you are an
attorney and you are used to presenting evidence that, at
least to the general standard of jurispuritence in this country,
is beyond a reasonable doubt speaks highly to the background
that you bring to it. In other words, you were
not someone who uh you know, repaired cars for a
living and decided to go into this because you were
thrust into the family line. You do have the capabilities
and training and expertise in in trial attorney work to
you put together a case that will stand up and
bear scrutiny in court. And I think that's a testament
to the validity of your conclusions. The diligence of the
work and the books speaks for itself. I mean, anybody
can follow the pathway and say, well, I'll just discredit
it out of hand or accept it because it's pretty
well documented, so good for you.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, Bruce, what I've done is especially about
the Jack the Ripper evidences I've told, and I would
ask you three to do this for me as well.
We're challenging any of the major universities in the world,
any of the universities that teach law, the Harvards, they Yale,
the Oxford's, the Cambridges. All they've got to do is
fly me back, Okay, put me up at a lodge,
pay for some food. I'll stand up in front of
an auditorium of their law students, their professors, their judges,
anyone they want to have in that room to contest
my evidence. This is what I did for a living.
I used to present forensic evidence at I'm willing to
stand up in front of one of those audiences, Bruce,
and have them debate me word for word about the
credibility of what I'm presenting. I did this at the
TED in front of an audience of four three thousand
people of lawyers, doctors, journalists, scientists. We took a vote
after I presented the evidence, and they only gave me
fifteen minutes to prove beyond a recentatle doubt in fifteen
minutes is tough. Okay, no lawyer's ever been asked to
do that in the history of law. We took a
vote and we had over seventy five percent vote guilty
of that audience. So if you'll help me tonight, I'd
love to stand up at a Harvard or a Cambridge
and present the evidence in a slower fashion. Give me
an hour, give me two. We'll do it at visuals
and then they can decide what evidence they think is
credible or not. And I tell you what, I think
history needs it. I think history wants it, and I'd
love to be the one that gets to show it.
Speaker 1: That is a wonderful challenge. That is the as a journalist.
Speaker 4: That is the gold standard of what I, as an
investigator reporter trying to be as much as humanly possible
on bias, ascribe to and say, hey, here it is.
Let's bring it out in an open forum. If you
can tear it down, then I will stand corrected. But
I'm willing for the sake of the truth being told
to put this under whatever scrutiny is the highest standard
that we can ascribe to in human endeavor to find
out truth and fairness and go ahead, let the chips
fall or they may. There's no more honest way to
do it than that. And I think that that is
a very compelling offer. I have some connections around the country.
Maybe we can find a venue that would do that.
Speaker 1: I think it would be.
Speaker 4: Fascinating and from a school of law, it would be
an excellent hands on exercise for the law students to
be involved in that and to evaluate both sides of
that argument. I mean, that's that's a compelling and I
think a very valuable offer for you to make. And
you know what it opens you to, however, the chips
may fall, and that's a very honest way to approach it.
Speaker 1: Good for you. I'm impressed, and we'll talk about this
after way to.
Speaker 6: Trying to pull forward.
Speaker 2: Thanks now, Jeff, with with Holmes and the research you
started to do, and again, as you mentioned, there was
a lot of a lot few other different books about homes.
I think the most famous was Devil in the White City, which,
as you alluded to before, is now currently in development
as a major motion picture with Martin Scorsese directing and
Leonardo DiCaprio playing HH Holmes. Now, I never read that book,
and what I loved about your book was, of course
how it got into Holmes's mind, your relationship is a relative,
and how you handle that information. And again, so they're
not basing it on your book, they're basing it on
the other book. And from what I understand, there wasn't
as much real homes in that book. There was a
lot of other stories in patting going on. So do
you think that they might try to look at your
book or other you look more into the homes legend
about what he did, especially in Chicago.
Speaker 6: We've sold five books to Paramount, so I would imagine
they're looking at the way I put the story together. Now,
mister Larson is an incredible writer, and The Devil in
the White City is a great book, which I completely recommend.
I know I'm not supposed to do that.
Speaker 2: But it is.
Speaker 6: It's he was a master marketer Mark. He called the
book The Devil the White City when probably seventy percent
of the book was about Daniel Burnham, the architect of
the World's Fair. Now it worked. He sold millions of copies.
But my insiders in Hollywood tell me that's the problem
they have making the movie because they've written four scripts.
This is the fourth one they're trying to sell now
that Paramount says they're ready to roll with, but they
haven't even got the strip the script yet. And it's
because of that problem that the book is about this
this American historical figure Daniel Burnham and the World's Fair.
But the people want to see a movie starring Leonardo
DiCaprio as AHH Holmes in the Murder Castle, and that's
the issue they have. So you also, you know as
a writer, when my author friends, every author friend I
know that's ever had a book turned into a movie,
they hate it. Every one of them hates it. And
I try to give the movie guys a break. Here.
They're spending on undred and two hundred three hundred million
dollars on creating a story in two hours that you
got two or three years to write. It's not the
same equation. They have a lot harder job, right.
Speaker 2: And coming from the film industry myself, I understand with
the mechanics and the studio system and a lot of
how they'll take a great idea for a they'll take
a great book and then try to translate it into
a movie, and then depending on who's involved in the project.
It could either come out really good. You'll get all
of you Stephen King as a perfect example. They've made
a million movies on his you know, two million books,
and you know, you can get a couple of great,
fantastic movies like The Shawshank Redemption or The Green Mile.
Of course, those those had a lot to do with
Frank Darramant writing and directing those. Or you can get
you know, absolute pieces of garbage or movies that totally
miss them. And I'm going to catch a lot of
flak for saying this, but I thought The Shining was
crap because they totally Cooper he may be a master filmmaker,
he totally missed the mark and what that book was about.
And the book was a million times better than what
he did. It was just Jack Nicholson hamming it up
for two hours and they didn't even focus on the
scariest aspects of the book. So you know, and then
there are some books where they'll take a book and
literally the only thing that the movie in the book
have in common is the title, and that's it. Because
Hollywood will buy the rights to a book and then
they have the right to rewrite it. Anyway they want,
and they can say, oh, it's you notice these days
you'll see a movie saying inspired by a true story,
not even based on a true story, because you know,
they're not even pretending, hey, this is a true story.
We just made the whole damn thing up. But you
know what, this event inspired us, so now we're creating
our own version of it. Yeah. So there's a lot
of manipulation, and of course, being big Hollywood, everything is
written by committee. You know, every studio head has to
throw in their two cents. You know, another great Frank
Derebaunt movie I'll throw in is The Majestic. And in
the beginning of that movie, when it has Jim Carrey
is the writer sitting in the room with the studio heads,
which you never see him, You only hear their voices.
And of course the voices are all played by you know,
Rob Reiner and Gary Marshall and then these other big
name directors. But you know they're acting like typical suits
and they're taking this guy's story and they're throwing out
all these well why don't we put it like a
dog in it, you know, make it more interesting? And
then well, I have a kid with the dog and
all the things that have absolutely nothing to do with
the story. But you know, they're all trying to like
market it in such a way so they could bring
in the widest audience, and they dilute the main part
of the story. So you know, you get you get
a director like Scorsesey who has a lot of clout
and can demand things, but he still has to answer
to the studios who were paying and funding's good, you know,
so he can you know, has a lot of pull
and sway, but in the end, it's the studio that
owns that story and the movie and they can pretty
much do with it whatever they want.
Speaker 6: You know. And what my friends are telling me is
that the writer, now, he's the one that wrote The
Hunger Games, which is one of my favorite movies. My
daughter and I we can watch it three four times together,
and he's a great writer. He also wrote what's the
one of the Fella that does Them? That did the
bombs in Iraq with the.
Speaker 2: Song the hurt Locker, Yes.
Speaker 6: The hurt Locker, which is another incredible movie. So what
he's trying to put together now, which he'll have to
get approved by DiCaprio, by Scorsese. And then by paramount
is that Holmes and Burnham the architect knew each other
a matter of fact, that Holmes worked for Burnham now
having practiced law in California. My intenna goes straight up
in the air at that suggestion, because Burnham's family is
not going to be happy with the fact that their
ancestor is now being tagged with the most prolific serial
killer in the world. I don't know if that's going
to work.
Speaker 2: They but the family may may not like it. But
again we get down to they've already bought the rights
to the book and the story and historical figures. Unfortunately,
in Hollywood a fair game. Most most movies you see
with historical figures in there, there's very real, very little
real history involved. So, you know, Hollywood playing around with history,
much to the chagrin of surviving family members, is nothing new.
So if they want to do that, they're not going
to be worried about upsetting the family for what they
do with an historical figure that not too Let's face it,
not a lot of people out there really know who
he is, you know, and.
Speaker 6: You're probably right, and let's face it, you've got the
greatest probably some of the greatest litigation attorneys in the
world in LA working for Hollywood, so they know the issue.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and they and they also know if they
get sued or whatnot, they know how to outspend the competition.
So yeah, yeah, I mean, Hollywood, it's a it's a
vicious cycle. But you know, if if in the right hands,
and I think with Scorsese, who's an amazing director, and
even Leonardo DiCaprio, who he really is an amazing actor,
sometimes it takes it's hard for some people. Here, my
movie Guy is coming out, so you know, I'll talk
a little movies here. You know, people think, oh, he's
that kid from Titanic, he's just his kid actor. Well
he's in his forties now and he's a damn good
actor in most plays of things that he's in. Although
sometimes I think scorz Asey really needs to start working
with somebody else. But hey, that's just me.
Speaker 1: Now let's get back to the story. Yeah, the story,
some of the details if we can, right, That's.
Speaker 2: Where I was going next, which was with Holmes, when
you were you ever able to figure out in your
research when around the time he actually started to commit murder.
Speaker 6: That's a great question which hasn't been answered. Now there
are historians in New Hampshire. He grew up in Gilmington,
New Hampshire, a darling little town that if you ever
get the chance to go back in American history, you
can drive up and do it in one day. It's
an amazing little place that still has the house that
Holmes grew up in. The owners allowed me to go
up into his bedroom and look out the mirror he talked,
the windows that he talked about staring out of watching
people walking by. The church that I write about is there.
I got to tell you when I walked in and
sat down, I had chills going up and down my body.
I had to get out. It was it was threatening.
I'm an epileptic and it was threatening my condition. I
had to get out of the church. And then the
school that he taught elementary school at still stands. Now.
Think about that if you're a mother and a father
right now with a small child. H H. Holmes, your
child's teacher.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for having John Wayne Gacy come and do a
you know, a clown demonstration at your kid's birthday party?
Speaker 1: How about that? Exactly?
Speaker 2: Well, it's all hindsight. It's because people don't know and
these uh, you know, these guys, they they all operated
for years. Bundy Gacy, they even Holmes, operated for many
many years before they got caught or before you know,
the enough happened that they had enough evidence to come
out against them.
Speaker 6: Now back to your question, I kind of sidestepped. There
is a winery owner there now who bought the property
from the I always miss her name. She was the
author of Peyton Place. Do you both either one of
you remember that incredible author that wrote that story.
Speaker 2: Anyway, I don't remember her name, but I know the book.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they bought the property, turned it into a winery.
They think they can prove that his first murder was
committed at the creek behind that house, and it was
when he was six years old. I have no evidence
to back that up, but they're telling me they're working
on it right now.
Speaker 2: Now. There's also a lot of evidence with people who
grow up to be the serial killers, either early childhood
traumas or they started exhibiting psychotic cruel behavior as kids.
You know, kids who torture animals or have suffered some
kind of abuse. And in your book you mentioned that
Holmes actually had some kind of abuse happened to him
when he was young.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was I write about him being raped as
a small boy another by a man, and people ask me,
do you think that's what caused him to be the
monster he grew up to be? And I tell them no,
And I think I explained it in the book. His
discussion of that event was so logical, so mathematic, that
he was considering how he was going to use it
to further his purpose, rather than going home crying to
his mother and telling his father that he needed to
be avenged. And so I really don't think there was
an event that caused him to be evil. I like
the slogan that we used from Holmes when he gave
the interview with Hirst on the cover of my book,
I was born with the devil in me. He has
been with me ever since. I think that pretty much
sums up who he is. And when someone buys my book,
I asked them to stare into his eyes. Those are
his eyes on the cover. Stare into the eyes and
see what comes back to you. And I think it's
a different human being, maybe not even of our race.
That was he, So you know, that's I know where
you're going. People ask me a lot about, you know,
episodes in his childhood that could have created this monster.
Speaker 2: I don't think it.
Speaker 4: Was well, I would contend that did. Some of these
folks are once again on this high level of functioning
in terms of intelligence in the quotes respecting that he
completely disconnected himself from the horror of being raped as
a child and was very analytic in the description of
how he dealt with it even as a child. So
he was able, as a sociopath can do, to disassociate
himself with any of human emotions, empathy, compassion, any of
the attributes that we ascribe to ourselves as human beings, good, bad,
are indifferent which brass above the you know, the inculcated
reactionary actions of a lion or tiger that you know,
tears the head off a young animal because it's hungry,
and it doesn't show any compassion for the fact that
he's just done something that's pretty gross. So I think
that that able to do that ability to disconnect is
telling that, yeah, you know what, it didn't have an
impact on him in terms of turning the way he
would spend the rest of his life, perhaps, but It
just was an indication that at six years old, you
could take another person's life and even think along those
lines or not not be pretty remorseful after doing it.
I think that's pretty telling if you look at it
from another point of view.
Speaker 6: I like to think what he took from the incident, Mark,
was that this thing that we try to teach our
children about good and bad and the symbols for each
maybe wasn't as strong as his parents and his church
had been teaching him, and that he walked away from
that thinking, you know, the rules are off, I'm going
to do this the way I want to.
Speaker 2: Well, he was definitely a very wilful human being, very
calculating and cold, and it seemed like everything he did
he put a lot of thought into it before he
undertook it, which is part of the reason why he
went for years and years without being discovered exactly.
Speaker 6: And it's like, Mark, you bring up a great point.
It's why I believe in the law school dictionaries, in
the journals they should have when they try to define premeditated,
they should just put a picture of the murder castle up.
Here's a building that this man probably murdered his employer
seduced the widow, had her put his name on her
life insurance policy to where when she died he was
left their proper. He bought the property across the street
at Junction Grove built this immense hotel building a lifestyle
up above, and then the basement down below his factory
of death. In the three or four years that he
had before the World's Fair showed up in Chicago, this
greatest event in world history. Were millions from all over
the country and world showed up. And he had planned
this the whole time, as I like to think it
of as like the lion overlooking the savannah. He knew
these millions of people were going to flood and overload
law enforcement in Chicago. They wouldn't be able to keep
track of hardly anyone that actually lived there, let alone
the tourists that visited. And he was going to have
fair game.
Speaker 2: It's amazing, really, I mean, is there somebody who's that
calculating and planning ahead? I mean, right now, if you
talk to most people in modern culture, when you think
of who real evil serial killers, I mean, you could
throw out Bundy, you could throw out Ramirez and and Gasey,
but then you know, it's the fictional people like in
Hannibal Elector. Everybody knows Hannibal Elector, and you know the
Anthony Hopkins and then the TV show as you know,
Calculating serial Killers, but they're really not as detailed as
Holmes was. I don't know if anybody in modern in
the last hundred years who could really hold a candle
to homes in terms of how devastating intelligent intelligent he
was and planning to such meticulous detail. I mean, and
you know, we're coming up on our top of the
hour break here in a few minutes, so we'll definitely
be getting more into detail about the castle. But his
planning and the architecture and how he created this huge
building for the sole purpose of murder and nobody had
a clue. I mean, it's just it's just outstanding. Now
now today the basement you talked about, you know, going
in and trying to do a paranormal team, and I
just want to cover this real quick before we go
to break it is currently the post office is a
post office still operating upstairs? Yes it is. And what's
in the rest of the building.
Speaker 6: Well, you've got a huge post office above the basement now.
I at chapter twenty seven of Bloodstains, I write about
our first time into the basement, and which pretty much
separates me apart from the other authors, you know, the
author of Devil and White City, the torture Doctor or Deranged.
Those authors never went into the basement at the post
office themselves. When I and my friend tried to gain entrance,
we were refused. It was barricaded the door down the
steps into the basement. The employees thought it was haunted.
They didn't use the basement in the United States Post Office.
It took us four hours to talk their boss into
letting us in to that basement. It was only because
we fibbed and told them we were part of a
Hollywood film crew and that some of the employees might
be getting bit roles in the in the documentary. So
they let us down into the basement. And I write
about that first descent down those stairs, and it was
that hour changed my life.
Speaker 4: It Uh.
Speaker 6: My neurologists have told me what I had was a
common seizure, very common for epileptics. When I asked them,
how could I have known the exact location of apparatuses
in the basement when I had never seen it or
drawings about Holmes's basement before. They didn't have any answers,
only that, you know, their medical school training allowed them
to tell me you'd had a seizure. We're going to
give you some pills, you know, and you won't have
one again. Well, I continued having them with Holmes talking
to me about his exploits and and that's what I
tried to capture in the book.
Speaker 4: Let me hold you right there, because we're going to
take our break at the top of the hour. And
if this story isn't scary enough and compelling enough, the
fact that it's all true is enough to keep you
coming back and listen to the second part of our interview.
But on top of that, we're going to tie in
a link to Jack the Ripper and the evidence that
falls out of that. So don't go anywhere. We're going
to be right back with Unknown Origins Radio on the
Dark Matter Radio Network, So don't go away.
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Speaker 3: Folks back, Race, no.
Speaker 2: We don't Know, Jeff and welcome back everyone To Unknown Origins.
Radio here on The Dark Matter Radio. Network I'm Mark
johnson along With Bruce pearson and our executive Producer Irene Allen,
block and we are talking with our Guest Jeff, mudget
author of the Book, bloodstains discussing his great GRANDFATHER. H. H,
holmes a serial. Killer and, uh you, know it's been
a great first hour and really can't get into the,
UH i can't wait to get into the second. Hour.
Uh the we started talking about The Murder castle itself
and the the design That holmes put into it in
years ahead of, time between finagling his way in into
getting the, building uh, building the hotel and all the
special little things he. DID i was wondering if you,
could you, know for people who who who don't know
as much about The Murder, castle can you describe for
them exactly some of the, modifications special special little goodies
That homes put into each of the. Rooms, YEAH i.
Speaker 6: Think the most. Fascinating and you've got to you've got
to remember about the home. Store and this is this
is WHAT i found Out mark working on this, story
researching every FACT i. Could most of the story is
written is repeated by authors who google an article from
The New York times or The Chicago papers from a
reporter who wasn't even. There and now we have the home,
story AND i started finding out the DEEPER i dug
into each, piece the less was actually. True, so having
never been to the original murder, CASTLE i can only tell.
You i'll do my best describing. It but it's from
articles from reporters who weren't. There, Okay so we know
that people used to stay on the second floor that
was the. Hotel we know that certain rooms were selected
By holmes as the ones he directed his next. Victims.
Too they had gas. Vents he could either asphyxiate them
in the, room and he was one of the pioneers of.
Gas he could either asphyxiate them in the room or
render them unconscious to where his assistance would enter and
send the unconscious victim or body down a greased chute
and it would wind its way down to where other
assistants would catch her on a gurney and prepare her
for the doctor and his torture and. EXPERIMENTS i, mean
when you when you think about the movies Of, frankenstein
in the book you read Of, Frankenstein Mary shelley's awesome,
work this was. It this was the. One and when
you think About Hannibal lecter in The silence of The,
lambs this was. It this was the real, one and
that that basement was designed for him to conduct his.
Work i'm convinced it was about. Longevity i'm convinced he
was interested in female victims because of their. Ovaries i'm
convinced he was interested in extracting the chemicals which allow
which would allow him to solve aging and he could live.
Forever that's What i'm convinced he was. After CAN i prove. That,
no it's a. Theory, now it's got evidence backing it,
up but it's. Circumstantial so, now when those bodies were
on the, gurney he would conduct his, experiments remove whatever
piece of the body he was interested. In his assistance
would prepare the, body stripping the flesh so that he
could sell the skeletons to medical schools around the. Country
i'll give you an interesting. ANTIDOTE i was at a
book signing In. Iowa professor came up to me said
that they had just had a meeting at the university
that they were going to remove the skeleton from their
medical school museum because they were convinced they had bought
it From. Homes, WELL i sent chills up and down my.
Spine so he made a fortune in. Skeletons Scotland yard
believes there was An american doctor at the time of
The rippers trying to sell skeletons to The university Of
London Medical. School, now once that skeleton was, prepared the
rest of the flesh, remained and as you, know having
done the show and studied serial, killers that's where killers
are caught from the remains of the, body which has the,
evidence which you know creates an mo which allows the
police to identify the. Killer, Well holmes made a factory
where he could eliminate that. Waste he had, acid, bass
he had furnaces which were hot enough to create, glass
his own crematorium, hotter, hotter even that hot enough to create. Glass.
Wow so this was a Man that's like WHEN i
was talking about premeditation and the definition of it's. H. H.
Speaker 2: Holmes, now you, know when you mentioned some of the
things that they would do with the gas and and
the body, shoots it almost sounds like something that's out
of a comical haunted house or something that you would
find in an amusement. Park but this was serious. BUSINESS i,
mean he had keys to every. Room so if they
knock somebody out pump gas, in they, could you, know
go in and get the body or the unconscious person
at any time and dump them down the. Chute people
would think it's the. Garbagechute they wouldn't know any wiser,
well and he.
Speaker 6: Could he had eye holes where he could watch the
victim as she as the gas was introduced in the,
room and he could regulate how much he wanted and
the purpose he was after with this particular. Suspect so
when you talk about comic this wasn't anywhere like. That
this was a man who stood outside and waved to
the neighbors who was their neighborhood, doctor who lured you,
know tourists and ones he knew he wouldn't be caught
having killed into those rooms on the second floor where
he could asphyxiate.
Speaker 2: Them, well, yeah because these were people who were coming
To chicago and coming from cities from all Across, america
who wouldn't be missed right, away and they just disappear
in the crowds and nobody wouldn't even know that they
were there or.
Speaker 6: Gone their family never. Knew i've had two or three
ladies come up to me and very. Nice i've only
had one woman violently react to meeting me because she
thought one of her ancestors had been murdered By, holmes
WHICH i. Understood you, know it's not my. FAULT i
didn't have anything to do with, it BUT i understand that,
reaction that human. Reaction but the others were very.
Speaker 2: Polite they wanted to.
Speaker 6: Know they actually told me they didn't hold it against,
me WHICH i walked away thinking how great is the
human race that someone could have that reaction to me
and their ancestors'.
Speaker 2: Demise but you, know at the same, time you know
the whole sins of the. Father you can't blame pat you,
know future generations for the despicable acts of their ancestors
because they're different human. Beings they're not those. People so
when you mentioned how one person got really nasty with,
you being that What holmes did to her. FAMILY i understand,
that you, know they feel, bad they're upset with what
happened to their, family but it's not your.
Speaker 1: Fault, yeah But, mark let's be realistic.
Speaker 4: Here up until finally they put a lid on, it for,
generations the sectarian violence In Northern ireland was based, on you,
know just a repetitive set of you, know going back
to get even with the other, side back and, forth
back and. Forth and the second and third generation involved
in in that horrible conflict up there hardly knew what
it was.
Speaker 1: About but it was a tradition.
Speaker 4: If you're you, know and like with Shin, feine to
Blow british regulars or or bomb you, know department stores
or bus. Stops and the other side of the coin
was to go after the folks that were In shinfein
or that were. Separatists SO i think it's there's there's great,
traditions if you, will as sick as they are of
people carrying on a tradition of, hatred you, know there's
still comments, made as silly as they, are you, know
about the differences in The Civil war in this. COUNTRY
i mean one and fifty sixty years, ago so so human. Nature,
unfortunately as logical as what you're, saying and honestly truthful
is what you're. Saying people aren't truthful and. Logical they're
emotional and carry on traditions and sometimes not even understanding
what was behind.
Speaker 1: Them that's my, opinion.
Speaker 2: TROLL i was going to blow, off you, know the you,
know dismiss the other one just by, saying, well you
know it's The, IRISH i mean what? Else but but you,
know AND i could say that Because i'm Part, irish
so you, KNOW i got The i've got the right.
Here i'm a Fuken ginger as they like to.
Speaker 6: Say but ever gone to The university Of, Dublin.
Speaker 2: No i've. Never i've never been to THE.
Speaker 1: Uk no.
Speaker 6: Of the off the beaten path a little, bit BUT
i walked through it. Once you will be amazed at
how many of the things we take for granted The irish.
INVENTED i was, astounded you.
Speaker 2: Know and The irish had their, own you, know, discrimination
especially in the time of homes from the early to
late eighteen hundreds when they all immigrated over, here and
they were treated just as bad as a lot of
the other ethnic, minorities so they had they had a
lot of adversity to overcome when they got. Here but
we are. Discressing let's get back and talking a little.
Speaker 6: Bit.
Speaker 4: WELL i think this is a perfect time to Bring
irene in if she's if she will weigh in on,
this being that she lives In Great britain and she
needs to withhold you, know UPHOLD i should, say maybe
she wants to withhold some, evidence but she wants to
if she, wants we'd like to ask her to come
in as soon as you can and weigh in on
side of giving the brid sequel time in this, argument
because we are going to go across the pond and
do the most amazing link in this story before the
hour is up about the tie in With jack The
ripper and you, know The East end and The White chapel,
murders and maybe let's continue on and finish the story
out of Mister.
Speaker 1: HOLMES i think it's.
Speaker 4: Fascinating one item That i'd like you to, discuss and
that is why was the trial done In? Philadelphia was
that just a change of venue because of all the
publicity surrounding it is normal the case the change the
venue and capital crimes are now you.
Speaker 6: KNOW i think you're. Right it was the venue. Change
larsen did a great job of carrying in his book
about the. TRIAL i didn't go too much into the
legal back and, FORTH i. DO i was, Fascined i'll
tell you. THIS i was, fascinating and it was only
about the two children that he. Murdered from his, assistant Mister,
petzel there was never an investigation or a, trial even
an investigation of any of the murders that occurred at
The Murder, castle which to, me while WHY i liked
shows like yours and the help you give me telling these,
STORIES i find. Amazing, here you, guys go take. This
we have a federal government that bought The Murder castle
in nineteen thirty. Seven, okay it didn't burn to the,
ground standing. Erect i've got a picture of it with
a pickup truck right next to. It we can establish
the exact year the federal government bought The Murder. Castle
knowing what it was and had, been they tore it.
Down they built a post office over the, top in
violation of federal, law and knowing they had a responsibility
to investigate the. MURDERS i sent an fi, letter requests
and letter To President obama and His department Of Justice Attorney.
General nothing nothing. BACK i asked, them come, on let's
do the right. Thing let's investigate what's. There let's try
to put these things to. Bed let's let's try to
put them the. Rest at, least let's erect a monument.
THERE i told THEM i would fund a bronze monument
on the property of the Post office to the, victims
not The, holmes not to the, monster to the. VICTIMS
i got nothing. BACK i got something. Back they told
ME i could plan a Bush.
Speaker 1: HUH I i love and help me do the right.
Speaker 4: Analogy, here BECAUSE i think this is spot, on AND
i think this opens up an entirely another another pathway
for a. Show but let me draw an. Analogy let's
go To New York post nine to. Eleven Uh, giuliani
one of the most highly regarded prosecutors in Recent american,
history never could duct did a forensic investigation for the
hundreds and hundreds of people murdered in The World Trade. Center,
now is that not along the same lines of an
avocation of constitutional and judicial responsibility to conduct a Forensic
the most heinous mass murder In american, History no forensic
investigation was ever done on the, building on the, steel
on the. REMAINS i think you see a parallel, here
the fact that he was a reasonable request to, say
let's go into that basement and excavate and see if
there's any forensic evidence, left and at least let's acknowledge
that people were many people were murdered. There and like you,
say you're, not you, know applauding the, Murderer you're acknowledging the.
Victims and why would you get nothing back from AN
foi request in that. Nature that's that's pretty creepy in
and of, Itself but that's an entirely different. Show would
you agree or disagree with my point on that he was.
Speaker 6: A federal prosecutor and there should have been an. INVESTIGATION
i guess he was relying on the video of the
airplane striking the building.
Speaker 1: Alone, well, yeah that's pretty.
Speaker 4: Thin that's that that's prima facia evidence, Perhaps but you're the,
Attorney i'm. Not you're The you're you're the expert in that.
AREA i don't think that would hold up under many other. Cases,
uh the fact that you see a car uh t
bone another car at an. INTERSECTION, uh does not allow
the prosecutor to not look into any any other evidence
that may you, know whether it was the person was
drunk or under the, drugs or in a fit of,
rage or it was a revenge type of. Thing you
can't just jump to that conclusion based on, on, uh you,
know first person testimony or witnesses or even a. Videotape
is that is that ARE i, mean you're the you're
the expert. Jurisprudence i'm not by any, Means but is
that A is that a factual?
Speaker 1: Statement?
Speaker 6: YEAH i think there's a lot of questions about what
happened that day and the, country the government owes the
people answers to.
Speaker 4: ME i just wanted to DRAW i just thought it
was an interesting analogy that we just accepted move.
Speaker 1: On and it's interesting.
Speaker 4: Because weren't the wasn't the word on the street that
it burned, down burned to the, ground and it was
not demolished by the. Government isn't that what got out
in the folklore about the murder?
Speaker 1: Castle is that? Correct?
Speaker 6: Precisely and that's one of the reasons why when we
started the, SHOW i told, HIM i.
Speaker 1: Told you both all.
Speaker 6: Three listen when you asked me facts about the, Story
we've got to be careful because so much of it
is based on what a journalist says, happened and then
an author copying that journalist statement stating it as. Fact
and the burning to the ground is perhaps the most.
Dramatic it never burned to the.
Speaker 1: Ground, wow that's pretty.
Speaker 2: Creepy so they tore it to the, ground leaving government the. Basement,
yes building their new building on top of. It but
the abasement is still. Original and as you were mentioning
when you were able to finagle your way in, there
that you were mentioning how the post office employees didn't
even like going down.
Speaker 6: There it's not. Original and if you watch On History
channel The Haunted, history they followed me down with a
couple of film crews into the basement With Adam, seltzer
a friend of mine From. Chicago we went down into the.
Basement there are two original tunnels from When holmes owned the.
Building they were his escape. Tunnels if ever the police
would come in the front door of his, hotel he
was going to escape through these tunnels out the other
end of the. Street he never had to use. Them
so Those when The Post office built the new, building
they tore down the original base and they put a
new basement in his.
Speaker 1: Place it's.
Speaker 6: Offset there's many arguments from historians And holmes authors and,
experts so called experts about whether the dimensions of the
basement then and now and how it lays over the.
Speaker 2: Top who.
Speaker 6: Knows ALL i know is there are two original tunnels
down there still from When holmes constructed his Original.
Speaker 2: Now you also have talked about the paranormal, aspect and
of course this being a paranormal based, show you, Know
i'm very interested in to hear about what some of
your experiences were when you were down. There you said
you were actually hearing during this epileptic, seizure Hearing holmes's
voice talking to you telling what he. Did did anybody
else have any other experiences down?
Speaker 6: There, yeah my Friend Kim mesti's did, also AND i,
said the neurologist told me it was an epileptic. EPISODE
i never believed. THAT i THOUGHT i knew what happened
to me WHEN i went down in that. Basement and
LIKE i, Said i'm not a. PARANORMALIST i don't believe
in little girls on tricycles in hallways of, hotels that
type of. Thing i've always, believed As freud described and
as the other great, scientists there is an energy after.
Death energy just doesn't. Disappear it's like.
Speaker 1: Water and we all know.
Speaker 6: That we all know that from The hubble telescope and
the galaxies in the universe and all the stuff we're seeing.
Now we're you, know as a matter of, fact we're
gaining more information now in these last ten years than
the human race has had since we've been. Started And
i've always known there was an energy after, death and
we're going to prove it in the next maybe ten,
years maybe twenty, years but it's going to be proven.
Now Harper's magazine wrote that if ever the paranormal were
to be, proven it would be in that base and
at sixty third walls The Murder. Castle they knew. It
they felt it. Too the employees feel, it visitors feel.
IT i felt, it but someone. Serious that's Why i'm
trying to find figure out why these ghost. Shows are
they afraid to go into that basement to prove the
actuality of that. Energy i'm not sure they've had years
to do.
Speaker 2: It, well here would Be my question is is it
the ghost shows not trying to get in, there or
because it's a federal, building the federal government with the
post office there are they Getting is anybody allowed to
go in there and do an? INVESTIGATION i, mean who
would you need to? Contact you need to get permission
to get in? There and maybe you, Know i've dealt
with local issues with state governments with locations here in
The northeast that are notorious for being, haunted but you
can't get into them because the state owns, them and
they absolutely refuse to have anything to do with. It
ringuin manor prime example up. Here so many great stories
out of their. Hounds holzer wrote about it in his
phenomenal book from the seventies about. Ghosts but these days
you try to talk to the state park system runs,
it they don't even want to talk about. It they,
Refuse they don't want to be associated with. It they
only want to be known for the history and not anything,
paranormal even though the place is just hopping with. Activity
so it seems with the you, know my question would,
be has anybody even tried asking to get in? There if,
so who would they need to talk? To and have
they been turned.
Speaker 6: Down i've been in three. TIMES i went in with
The History. Channel my agent In, chicago a friend Named.
Susan i'll if she clears me giving her name out
over the, Air i'll give you her. Name she had
the Post office IN dc Clear History channel going down
into the. Basement they were required to give a five
thousand dollars check for a charitable. Donation and when the
Ghost hunters asked me about IF i was willing to
go down with them on a, SHOW i, said, sure
but you're going to have to write a check to
a charitable nation of the Post office is selection of.
Choice and for some reason they balked despite making millions
from their.
Speaker 2: Show well that's sci fi And pilgrim, films and that
doesn't surprise.
Speaker 1: Me doesn't surprise me at.
Speaker 4: ALL i could have predicted that, one for, you knowing
WHAT i do about the whole. Organization so that's a.
Shame so it's not a question of The Post office
putting political blockades in the.
Speaker 1: Way that's a good. Sign so that could be.
Speaker 6: DONE i think history can be. MADE i Think i'd
be willing to set aside my medicine and go down
without the protections THAT i have because Of i've had
a long theory about AND i know you've had guests
on your show before about how there are there are
people who believe epileptics have this ability to feel that
energy may be more so than. Others AND i told
the Ghost Centers i'd be willing to go off my
medicine for a couple of days to go down into
the to the basement with them to see what we
could figure out THE i.
Speaker 2: Don't, know you, know there's the theory that epileptics could
be more open to. IT i know Doctor Barry taft
has done a lot of research over the years and
in his, book and we had him on the show
a couple of years. Ago you, know he said he
observed that most people who have this activity are epileptics
are haven't run in the. Family, NOW i don't believe
that everybody who has paranormal experience is. Epileptic i'm, sorry
it just doesn't. Happen BUT i do think that there
could be a correlation of people who are epileptic because
of the way the brain is wired and it's, misfiring
it could make them more susceptible to certain types of.
Speaker 6: ENERGIES i can only tell you, this AND i tried
to describe it in the. Book this friend of mine
WHO i played college basketball, With we've known each other
thirty five. Years he went down with. Me he AND
i are like. Brothers the voice wanted me to kill
him and was telling me how to do it in the,
basement and actually arranged for the custodian from the post
office to have to go upstairs to get.
Speaker 2: Something the voice in the basement was talking to, you
telling you. This oh.
Speaker 6: Yeah AND i tried to describe in the. Book AND
i let my readers Decide mark And bruce Whether i'm
crazy Or i'm telling them WHAT i, Saw and you know,
what that's up for them to. Decide ONLY i can
only write WHAT i felt. Now WHEN i went down
with The History, channel with all the film crews with,
me nothing not an ounce of, energy, nothing you.
Speaker 2: Know and a lot of that is because of the
film crew and the way they go down with all
the electronics that they're bringing, down and having done many
of these types of, investigations when you bring up the
big toys and the and the, investigators these things have
a habit of drawing up and hiding but when you
were down, there it was just you and your friend that, time.
Speaker 6: The three and the custodian from there the.
Speaker 2: Custodian so, again you don't have people in there looking
specifically for this type of, activity and it's playing, on you,
know isolating people and. Weaknesses from a psychological, standpoint it's
very reminiscent of what we refer to as demonic, activity
that type of isolation to isolate the victims and then
start messing with them, psychologically which is what it sounds
like for.
Speaker 6: You it was an amazing event for me in my.
LIFE i, know AS i explained, earlier WHEN i came
back up those, STEPS i believed In, god the, supernatural
and the.
Speaker 4: Paranormal, well and that's just the. Point whether people believe
it or, not these life changing episodes are something that
no one will ever be able to dissuade you.
Speaker 1: From and if you.
Speaker 4: Accept some of the research and authors and interviews that we've,
done and you Know i've in some form or, Fashion
i've been researching this and trying to understand it like
so many other people for the last forty years, Now
if you would accept the possibility of a parallel existence
of some type shape or form of that, soul that,
entity that life, force that was this, monster then it's
very possible that that type of communication could take. Place you,
know there's no doubt about the viability of psychic, phenomena
the ability to read and determine places of murder and so.
FORTH i, mean the Program Psychic. Detectives if you had
any doubt about, that watch that law enforcement and prosecutors
and everybody else acknowledge there's no way these people could
do what they. Do so if that's the, case then
why is it any less plausible that our friend could
have communicated to you if it was in fact the
spirit or some type of communication from that, entity to
try to convince you to continue, that you, know the
heinous kind of crimes that took place in the eighteen.
EIGHTIES i think it's.
Speaker 1: Very at a very, logical dispassionate.
Speaker 4: Level THAT'S i, mean you can't dispute, that and Certainly
i'm not going to convince you of that you had the.
Experience so no matter WHAT i say or anybody. Else you,
Know i've had, many many people that have had these,
experiences And mark will agree with me because he's heard,
people you, know at the point where it's this cathartic.
Experience you don't care what other people. Think you, KNOW
i care if you Think i'm. Crazy i'm. NOT i
know WHAT i, SAW i know WHAT i, experienced and
it's changed my view of the. World as you just,
SAID i think it's an amazing honesty that you come
forth and say that and let the chips fall where they.
May that's something that could never be proven one way
or the, other but it adds to the mosaic to, say,
hey there's enough evidence, here there's enough possibility here that
maybe there's something to. It and IF i had the,
answers i'd be. RICH i wouldn't be on this. Show
i'd be you, know eating bond bonds in someplace Where
i'd like to, be In fiji or.
Speaker 6: Something, Actually i'm enjoying the show quite a. Bit IF
i was a, billionaire i'd still be on. It It's
i'm having a great. TIME i can tell you. This
WHEN i went on THE, TED i stood up in
front of that audience and told them about my experience
in that, basement THAT i believed in that, energy and
THEN i told, Them, okay now let's wipe that slate.
Clean i'm going to present evidence to you as, prosecutor
And i'm going to have you. Decide as my Grand,
jerry we swore that audience. In we did it again
In michigan up In Sue Saint. Marie we swore that audience,
in AND i, said, now wipe all that stuff. Clean
we're going to present evidence to you whether probable cause
exists THAT Hh holmes Killed Catherine etto's In. London and
they did. To, uh to their, credit they wiped everything.
Clean and then they stood there and considered the. Evidence
and we almost had a unanimous vote about three weeks
ago In.
Speaker 2: Michigan well Before that's WHAT i want to get into.
Next but real, quick it is the bottom of the.
Hour we're talking With jeff mudget, uh the author of
the Book bloodstains about his RELATIVE Hh, holmes his great
grandfather and, uh the the you had presented in the
book and uh and you've we've talked with you a
little bit about this in the. Past some compelling evidence
that at least, one if not possibly, more of the
murders attributed To jack The ripper In london may have
been caused BY Hh.
Speaker 6: Holmes we can prove that he killed. ONE i don't
have any evidence connecting him with the.
Speaker 2: Other four or.
Speaker 6: Sixth some aripperologists say, five some say. Seven we can
prove he Murdered Catherine ETOs and as a previous prosecutor
and trial. Attorney that's What i'm sticking. With. Now if
the world demands we prove more than that, ONE i
can't do, it, No BUT i can do this.
Speaker 2: One, now how did you? Know how do you know
That holmes was there In london when it.
Speaker 6: Happened, well And i'll explain that to you as we
get to the last thirty. Minutes but we think we
know what ship he wrote over on there's a passenger
list still in. Existence we're going to check that passenger,
list checked the, handwriting it was signed by each. Passenger
we'll run it by the computer that we have working
for us at The university Of, buffalo which works for
The department Of justice and The Post office comparing their handwriting.
Needs we also know that he wrote letters From london
back to his lawyer in The United, states complaining about
what paper his favorite, paper how he couldn't get The
New York herald while he was In. London then from
the postmarks and the dates the letters were, received The
Dear boss letter and The Saucy jack. Postcard it would
have been impossible for him to have written those letters
From New york or from The United states because letters
had to travel by ship and they took seven days
to get across and we have the. Postmarks so by
establishing with proof that he wrote the, letters we proved
that he was In london at the time of the.
Speaker 2: Murder now the murder of the one And i'm SORRY
i did not remember her, Name Catherinetto's. Cathernetto's now there
was within the last year or two was there was
a big deal over In london where they supposedly found
SOME dna evidence in the suspects for The ripper. Case And,
irene are you there of living over? There is wondering
if if you had any commentary on that particular part
of the, Case.
Speaker 1: Leslee give her a second to come up to the.
Speaker 5: Mic but, Sorry, Elo, Jeff i've been. Listening is absolutely
fantastic and you're scared the living day lights THAT i, mean.
Speaker 1: Especially for the gory.
Speaker 5: Bits i'm SORRY i haven't been on, before but my
grandchildren have arrived From london And havoc.
Speaker 2: So, Irene what do you know about with what they
recently found over there within the last couple of, years
with the evidence for that one person who killed at
least one of the.
Speaker 5: Victims ALL i know is that A Dr jari lu
Hell LEON i can't really pronounce his name From. Liverpool, yeah,
yeah apparently done for somebody that had bought a, shawl
a private, person an author or somebody who bought this
shawl that had been found near the body Of Catherine.
Doo's do you know anything about, That, JEFF i.
Speaker 6: Know a lot about. It AND i know that that,
evidence THAT dna evidence that he tried to introduce to
the world to sell his book would not have stood
up in. Court it would have been thrown. Out.
Speaker 1: Interesting, Wow, yeah THE dna was.
Speaker 6: Faulty they admitted that that it would not have. Compared.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah so here again the public railroading of the facts
now makes that solidify itself into concrete evidence in the
in the general public's.
Speaker 1: Mind that's.
Speaker 6: Fascinating and, see and that's what we run up, Against.
Bruce we run up. AGAINST i stand up AND i
try to tell people we're going to present evidence in
a legal fashion as IF i was in A california state.
Court we're going to let you, decide and the eyes
roll in the audience is the first response because they've
seen so many authors trying to sell, books and anyone
that's read my book mark you can help me with.
THIS i have one chapter about him Being jack The.
Ripper the rest of the book has nothing to do
With jack The. Ripper it's not HOW i plan on
Selling bloodstains if it ever, goes you, know. Viral it
has to do With jack The ripper is the world's.
Mystery it's it's the most infamous.
Speaker 2: Set of murders there.
Speaker 6: Are AND i knew that when we proved That holmes
was there and he Killed Catherine, etto's it would explode
The holmes story the way that the WAY i needed
it to, go because of because of just. Understanding. Listen
the WAY i like to tell people is now That
hollywood's fallen in love with his, story and the movie's
going to be made An american horror, story and THEN
amc wants to do a series on, It you're going
to have people trying to prove That jack The ripper WAS. Ahh,
holmes not me PROVING. Ahh holmes Was jack The, ripper
Because jack The ripper was three or four murders In.
London Ah holmes is a monster In america and it
doesn't even compare the stories two is in the.
Speaker 2: World, sorry that's that. Question?
Speaker 5: Sorry is it true he killed about two hundred women In?
Speaker 6: America Mister larson thinks the number is over two. Hundred
the author Of The devil in The White, City holmes
admitted to twenty seven to The Hurst agency before he
was allegedly, executed then recant two days.
Speaker 2: BEFORE i think.
Speaker 6: It was many more than. THAT i think it was, seven,
eight nine. Hundred there are historians now In chicago who
believed he owned a concrete and glass factory that at
night would take out blocks of concrete into The Chicago
river and dump them over the side this huge furnace
that was thirty forty feet. Long he never sold any
glass from, it just was a fire. Burning now you
know Who holmes, Is you know the, Story you know
the monster that we're talking. About the, Numbers you know.
What he wouldn't have justified the expense making those enterprises
for twenty seven.
Speaker 2: People, no most, definitely no.
Speaker 4: Way and he wasn't baking pottery in those, Ovens there's
no doubt about. It so what were they there?
Speaker 6: For?
Speaker 4: Right you know his comprehension in my mind of, workflow
putting the shoots, in putting the trap doors. Strategically AND
i looked at that floor plan if that's in fact,
accurate WHICH i you can correct me If i'm wrong
that at least that's probably. Accurate, man this guy did
a lot of. Planning and how he was able to
get those contractors in there to make all these bizarre
doors with asbestoses steel linings and stuff and not ask
a lot of questions or talk at the bar on
their lunch breaks is beyond. ME i don't know how
he kept that, quiet BECAUSE i don't care how much
you separate the various, contractors whether they were the, stonemasons
the brick, layers the. Carpenters they had you guys in
there putting rivets into steel, walls and you, KNOW i
don't know how he pulled that. Off but the point is,
This the whole workflow thing was pretty well thought. Out
IF i understood you know WHAT i could gather from the, charts.
Speaker 6: Right and those, charts like LIKE i, said were drawn
by a journalist from comments that he was given by the,
investigators the police investigators who reportedly had gone down into the.
Basement so you've worked in journalism along, Time, bruce you
tell me what that's. WORTH i don't know.
Speaker 2: The When holmes was finally, caught what was his? Undoing
what finally led, people or led the police to realize
that they had a monster on their hands and he was.
Speaker 6: Responsible you, Know harpers wrote about That mark and it
was one of the greatest man hunts In american, history
them chasing him across The Middle america and then up Into.
CANADA i Think holmes finally realized he was done for
that his, face he was a celebrity In, america that
he was going to be unable to continue anything that
he wanted to. Perform he knew he needed to have a.
PLAN i think he wanted to be. CAUGHT i think
he wanted to be, tried AND i think he planned it,
out As i've described in the, book how the prison
guard would be hung in his place and he could
go scott.
Speaker 2: Free now he used he was practicing, hypnosis as you
indicated in the, book using it to, slowly over time
work on the guard and hypnotize.
Speaker 6: Him many authors before, me you, know stated About holmes'
ability to. Cut he was a master.
Speaker 4: Hypnotist you, know this is the story that just keeps
on given you. Couldn't you'd have to be pretty creative
to write this many elements into a. Story but we
got to go through. This ali finegel his way out
and beat the. Hangman this this is just the capper
of all. CAPPERS i, mean so continue on because you,
KNOW i hope the listeners listen carefully to what happened
at the end of the story, here, Please but the.
Speaker 6: Best part about it Is. Bruce sorry to jump on,
you but The New York times after his alleged, execution
they started carrying The holmes. Curse, Okay It's New York
times front, page over and over everyone that irritated him
in his, arrest his prison, time his, trial his alleged.
Execution THEY i either died or suffered terrible. Misfortune Mister Adam,
seltzer the historian From chicago did the research for us on.
It at least forty people suffered that.
Speaker 2: Fate forty.
Speaker 1: People after reminding me Of Bill, clinton, Sorry i'm not.
Kidding it does kind of. Weird everybody you know read
the story.
Speaker 6: People and you know WHAT i, Decided, No i'm not
going to believe in a. Curse i'm going to take
it the other. Way let's take a look at the
facts involved in his execution and. Burial. Well as the
body came off the Scaffold okay, one he had paid
the judge and prison superintendent for no autopsy and violation
Of pennsylvania. Law okay, two he was hung with a
good another violation Of PENNSYLVANIA. Loa the body came, down
it was lowered into a coffin and filled with. Concrete
pinkerton guards then took possession of the body and coffin another.
Speaker 2: Violation, yeah and we know how trustworthy. Guards, YEAH i
was going to, say we know how trustworthy of The pinkertons.
Speaker 6: Were he hired. Them they took him out to the
Cemetery Holy cross out in outside Of. PHILADELPHIA i was
there about four months. Ago they lowered him into a
hole and then ten feet of concrete was poured on,
top and then he had The pinkerton guard stand guard
for three nights until it hardened that no one could
interrupt the. Body then this Alleged holmes curse started taking.
Speaker 2: Place that is just first of, all did they ever
give any export nation on why they went to such
extreme links for not only you know the way doing illegal,
executions but for the disposal of the. Body and where
Was holmes really during all of?
Speaker 1: This, WELL i you, KNOW i tried.
Speaker 6: To explain in the book it's theory and, conjecture because
obviously unless you were, there it's going to be hard
to put it all. Together AND i THINK i did
a good job. Explaining it's it's a movie in itself
to tell you the. Truth AND i think it's. Fascinating that's,
why which shows like yours that are going to help.
Me we're going to exhum that. Grave we're going to
take that concrete, up we're going to crack it, open
and we're going to do A dna comparison on those
remains in my flesh.
Speaker 2: And put it the rest once and for all.
Speaker 6: Now And i'll come back on your show and SAY
i was a complete idiot, there, right it Was. Holmes he's.
Speaker 4: Dead, well, then, NO i don't think it means you're
a complete. Idiot think that there was a compelling reason
and a logical assumption that you're you're you're spot. ON
i mean clearly that's an anomaly the way that took. Place,
Uh and you, know the only two other times IN
us history of prominent, people AND i don't say, that you,
know you, know connect these three, people but other areas
where autopsies were startlingly not performed was the death Of
George patten After World War two and of course the
violation Of texas law Where John kennedy's body was not
given an autopsy and sent back To. Bethesda so you,
know there's there's a reason that the law has not.
FOLLOWED i, mean you could argue some specific cases in those,
two but this was pretty bizarre to Have pinkerton's and
fill in the coffin with cement and that kind OF
i think that it wouldn't be too hard to draw
the conclusion there was something amiss here and people were
trying to cover it.
Speaker 6: Up, so Especially, mark when you think About holmes was
writing checks before he was allegedly executed to have these things.
Happen kennedy wasn't writing checks Before holmes was writing checks
to see that these things happened this way.
Speaker 2: The, well so you're saying there were checks going out
From holmes after his, Death no before before his. Death
all these checks went out well.
Speaker 1: Premeditated so let me ask.
Speaker 2: This, then this is going to be the obvious dumb,
question but the what what evidence other than The holmes?
Curse with a lot of these witnesses starting to befall
accidents or ill fortune and dropping dead or whatever happened to,
them what other evidence do you have that suggests that
he survived his own.
Speaker 6: HANGING i know where he's actually, buried on The Sacramento
river In, california And i'm reluctant to bring that up because,
then you, Know i'm immediately classified as the crazy on
the radio. Show and that's Why i've told people there's
no sense in us even doing anything about that until
we prove that it's not him in the concrete.
Speaker 1: First.
Speaker 6: Prove if we prove that it's not him in the concrete,
first then my knowledge about where he really is becomes
viable because it just doesn't work until we prove the.
Exhumation so that that Part's that's one WHEN i told,
you you know HOW i selected the book based on
a true. Story i'm going to prove each, point you,
know AS i have the money and the, time and
then you, know people can decide whether it should have
been called based on a true story or nonfiction or.
Not they can decide on their.
Speaker 4: Own let me Ask let me ask you a quick
question you may or may not know how to, answer
but my background of having been a, Paramedic i'm going
to ask you. This, so if you take the limestone
component of concrete and you put it in cap a
body with pretty much precluding any, oxygen have you talked
to any pathologists to kind of figure out in any
way to predict the state of the body that was
immediately put into concrete and the leeching of the limestone
out of the concrete into the, body because you, know
quick lime is obviously limestone which was used in and
around the pathological. Process do you have any idea how
that's going to affect THE dna or sampling or where
have you investigated that and what have you come up?
Speaker 6: With we've got ten different.
Speaker 4: Opinions oh, good all, Right SO i don't feel quite
as ignorant AS i did WHEN i started the.
Speaker 1: QUESTION i still, do but not for that.
Speaker 2: Reason we did they lower the body in a, coffin
first in a wood, coffin then import with concrete or
did they just pour concrete directly over the body.
Speaker 6: Twice once in the, coffin then over the top of the.
Coffin good, lord good good luck chiseling. Out oh, yeah
this is a major. Undertaking that's Why i'm glad you
know that we, have you, know the scientists FROM dc
willing to.
Speaker 2: Help so what with other other than the? Other all
this conjecture on What holmes. Is If holmes lived for
a lot, longer when did he? Die?
Speaker 6: OH i think he lived almost to one hundred years.
Old once, again the stories THAT i have to tell
About holmes's exploits, AFTER i think are eerier and creepier
than the ones. Before but UNTIL i prove it's not
him in that, grave which you, know every author before me.
Speaker 2: Has said that it is.
Speaker 6: Absolute the state Of pennsylvania says it, is the federal
government says it.
Speaker 2: Is it.
Speaker 6: Doesn't it doesn't do me much good to go down that.
LINE i can only tell you, this we're talking about
his sum of history's most. Horrible, well you guys brought
Up Manglely holmes New, mangly And i'm going to Be
i'm going to prove that once we showed that it
wasn't him in that concrete.
Speaker 1: Too, well you, know.
Speaker 2: Well they were like drink, drinking buddy.
Speaker 1: Swapping best teaser in the, World i'll tell you right.
NOW i, know let's hope we're going to help you
get this.
Speaker 2: Together they were, drinking buddy, swapping swapping shop talk and.
Speaker 6: You know what a you KNOW i and for me
to say that now all the eyes are rolling of your.
LISTENERS i know that once we get that concrete up
and prove it's not, him, okay then then we go
bring it.
Speaker 1: On let the facts, state you, know stand on their own.
Merit that's. GREAT i think.
Speaker 4: That's completely honest and. Good let's keep following the. Pathway
this is, compelling it's. FASCINATING i, MEAN i you couldn't
jam more elements into a story if you tried.
Speaker 2: To, well let me ask what you know WE i
know You you've got to go here in about five
or six. Minutes so let me squeeze the one of the.
Strings just aspects of the story in. Here the fact
that a lot of the murders he committed seemed to
be related to his own twisted version of scientific research
dealing with women's sexual, organs the the hormones involved and
his obsession with. Immortality, yes could you explain that real.
Speaker 6: QUICK i don't know anything about that, science and that
would be me talking off the top of my. Head
ALL i know is from some of his. Materials that's
what he was fascinated. With that's what he was going
To london to to talk to as As irene will
jump in here and help. Us that was where that
was the scientific center of the earth at that. Time
that's where the great professors and teachers were as far
as you.
Speaker 5: Know the medical.
Speaker 2: Science where was the? Elephants, yes, well.
Speaker 4: And if you AND i did a very long series
of medical, documentaries and IF i could interject here back
around the eighteen seventies and forward in medical colleges is
In Boston university And Boston college and the medical, schools
they would have operating theaters which had if you've seen
pictures of, them which were basically a very steep sided
observation rooms where they would have before, anesthesia they would
have live operations done with people with no anesthesia so
the medical students could observe the. Operations it.
Speaker 1: Was it was pretty.
Speaker 4: Freaky it kind of looked, like you, know the Institutionalized
frankenstein's lap so clearly in my work in doing medical
documentaries about Early american and early medical, history this was
not uncommon, to you, know to open somebody up while
they were still, conscious because before, anesthesia AS i, said
there was no other way to do. It so he
was quite with in the mainstream of what happened in
exploration and medicine and internal organs and surgery and so
forth when those disciplines were being evolved in that period
after The Civil. War so that's not inconsistent with the
history of the. Time AND i know that from having
to produced those.
Speaker 2: Documentaries, Well jeff also with you know you hinted at
in the, book because of this obsession with immortality and
even some of the, killing at least the one killing
attributed To jack the ripper of, course with her sexual
organs removed, her you, know and the gruesomeness of the,
kill but that's what was taken from the. Body you
also just mentioned that it's possible That holmes lived to
almost be one. Hundred do You WHAT i found fascinated
with the story is you allude to the fact that
maybe some of his research could have helped him live that,
long which again makes the story really really, bizarre BUT
i have to say it is a fascinating.
Speaker 6: READ i don't know if he was that, Advanced, MARK
i don't know if he, had you, know the knowledge
the computer systems we have now that would make that
type of scientific, research that would be necessary for that
type of scientific. RESEARCH i doubt he had that. Background
but he was on the forefront of. IT i know,
That and and he was dealing with people that, were you,
know experts about. IT i don't, think you, know living
to ninety seven meant he solved you, know longevity or.
IMMORTALITY i just you, know he.
Speaker 2: Was he was a.
Speaker 6: Doctor he knew healthy, living those, things so for, him
not for the people around. Him but SO i DON'T
i don't necessarily know if there's a connection to.
Speaker 2: That, okay fair, enough you, Know, jeff this has really
been fascinating discussion so far. Tonight and the, fact you,
know we talked earlier about they are doing that the
new movie With Martin Scorsese Leonardo, DiCaprio devil in The White,
city which will have homes being featured predominantly in, It
and we also mentioned briefly that the new season Of
American Horror STORY uh with which is going to be
premiering In, october is heavily based on The Murder castle
and What holmes was. Doing they're they're taking a lot
of elements from that and putting that into this. Season
so that's going to be really interesting to see what
they play with what they've taken from the real home
story and tried to use that in their fictional. SETTING
i think you mentioned was there somebody else they're trying
to make a television show about this as?
Speaker 6: Well oh, yeah there's there's a MC. Hbo they're all
looking into.
Speaker 2: It.
Speaker 6: Netflix you, know there's a series they What i'd love
for them to, make like A hannibal series or a
what was the series with the killer that only killed bad?
Speaker 2: People oh, yeah, yeah yeah that Was. Dexter yeah With.
DEXTER i love that.
Speaker 6: Show and you, know So i'm, hoping you, know two
hours to do this story is not enough, time So.
Speaker 4: I'll none before we run out of. Time speaking of,
time tell us how tell the listeners how they can
get in touch with, you how they can purchase your,
books what's coming, forward how they can keep in touch with.
You and then of course we want to invite you
back for another couple hours to speak to.
Speaker 1: Us, well thank you very.
Speaker 6: Much, yeah you, Know i'm On. Facebook anyone on your
your listeners are welcome to join my, page and then
you can go to. Www dot bloodstainsthebook dot, com one
word Or. Amazon amazon sells all my, ebooks AND i
got to tell, You amazon treats me like a. King
the stories About amazon being a terrible place that i've
my entire relationship with them has been. Beautiful SO i
don't know where those stories are coming. From and, UH
i can only tell you this if you want to
read my Story, Bloodstains my story is about a reader
stepping into my. Shoes, okay at that DINNER i try
to put my readers at that dinner party where my
grandfather revealed the. Secret and THEN i asked my, readers
what would you have? Done how would your life have
changed with this horrible? Secret, now first, off every time
you woke, up every time you went to, bed every
time you took a cup of, coffee that's who you thought.
About and most of the people that read the book
are enjoying the, experience and a lot of them tell
me that it changes their.
Speaker 2: Life, Well, jeff thank you so. Much for coming on
the show, tonight AND i know you got to, run
so we'll let you go, here but thank you. Again
and you know, what, Well bruce AND i will be
in touch with you tomorrow about some of those other,
things so we'll definitely be talking.
Speaker 6: Further, well thank, You and you know, what we could
spend two hours talking about The jack The ripper, evidence
because you KNOW i. Am you'd love to get the
world to give me a fair shot to stand up
in front of a room full of lawyers and debate that.
Evidence because if they, do if they let, me the mystery's.
Over we know who Killed Catherine etto's and that was
the woman who died around the Dear boss.
Speaker 2: Letter, okay, Well jeff, again thank you very much for coming.
On we will definitely have you back and you have
a great evening, now Thanks, ja.
Speaker 1: Thank you for all the. Best bye bye.
Speaker 6: Bye well that was.
Speaker 2: Great now we're coming up to the end of our
show here in about a, minute SO i just want
to fall into, Again Thank. Jeff wonderful. Guests that was
a great show. Tonight what was your thoughts on, That?
Speaker 4: Bruce, unbelievable you, know once again every, week. UNBELIEVABLE i
wouldn't have missed this for all the money in the.
World and we appreciate our listeners and we want our
listeners to follow, up give us some. Feedback you, know
next week we'll do it. Again and, uh it's just.
Fascinating AND i hope that the listener's got half of
it out of it THAT i.
Speaker 1: DID i, mean you.
Speaker 4: Can't you couldn't pack more different venues and different tangents
into a story if you tried.
Speaker 1: To just.
Speaker 4: Amazing and you know, what the fact he's an attorney
just as the. Credibility so we're going to stay with
him and have him back on again and follow. Up
and thank You irene for being. On thanks, everybody have
a good weekend and be. Safe we'll see you next.
Speaker 2: Week thank, hey good, night and thanks everybody for listening
To Unknown Origins. Radio tune in Next thursday night at
eight Pm Eastern Standard time here on The Dark Matter Digital.
Network have a good. One we'll text you next.
Speaker 1: Week Thanks, Keith thank You. Keith