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Speaker 1: Hi, this is David Rowntree and you're listening to Unknown

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Origins Radio.

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Speaker 2: We live in a world filled with unknown.

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Speaker 1: You can't handle it through.

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Speaker 2: I'm as glad as hell. I'm not tying taking this anymore.

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Speaker 3: Game over, man, Game over.

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Speaker 1: I'm not your night, I'm not yours.

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Speaker 2: We will not go quietly into the night.

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Speaker 3: We will not vanish without a bite.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Unknown Origins.

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Speaker 2: Three and good evening, everybody. Welcome to another edition of

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Unknown Origins Radio here on the Dark Matter Radio Network.

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I'm your host, Mark Johnson, and joining me is our

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co host, mister Bruce Pearson. How are you tonight? Bruce?

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Speaker 1: Loving the new and improved Unknown Origins Radio. Ready to

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rock and roll?

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Speaker 2: Mark, you know we've got the whole sound system set

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up tonight. I'm very excited. But before we get to that,

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we have to introduce our executive producer, Miss Irene Alan

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Block is also going to be joining us tonight. How

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are you tonight, Irene? I'm fine? How are you doing?

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Speaker 1: Good?

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Speaker 2: Just for you folks if you couldn't tell by the accent,

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Irene is coming to us all the way from Wales, UK,

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so we're going to be keeping her up a little

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bit late tonight.

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Speaker 1: Yep, we'll have to be on our best behavior.

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Speaker 4: The boss is in. I thought she was an auzur

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vy Jean. I'm sorry, I miss I misinterpreted that an accent.

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I got it all wrong. I'm sorry about that.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was zu beki. Still, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, anyway, welcome Irene. We're glad to have you

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on board. This should be a lot of fun tonight.

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We've got a great show coming up, so this will

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be a lot of fun.

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Speaker 5: So that's good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's going to be a good show tonight. And

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we've got a great guest coming up and we'll be

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introducing him in just a few minutes. I just wanted

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to put a little something out there. This has been

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a really weird and kind of horrible week down in Virginia.

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I know a lot of people were following that live

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newscast the young reporter and her cameraman who were murdered

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by a disgruntled ex employee. And you know, if you

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haven't been following on that, it was tragedy because it

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happened live on the air. And this guy, yeah, it's

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I don't know. I'm trying to like remain a little

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calm because there's so many different ways that I can

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rant about this, not only with the guy obviously emotionally disturbed,

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claiming that you know, well she made a racist comment.

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Well that was you know, his justification for committing killing

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two people and wounding a third and then trying to

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kill himself. Obviously that there was some issues there. But

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I just want to put out there, you know, our

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thoughts and prayers go out to the victim's families, you know,

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to get through this tough time. It really is a terrible,

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terrible situation.

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Speaker 4: Well I couldn't you know, this hit struck you know,

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a chord with me because as you know, I started

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out as a you know, cameramen and a news reporter

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and then an anchor out in the Southwest, And I

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gotta tell you a lot of times when you're covering

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live stories, there's a fair amount of danger around. I mean,

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I knew over my career two chopper cameramen who both died,

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one in LA and uh and one down in Texas

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in helicopter crashes.

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Speaker 1: And they were both newsmen. You know, they weren't even

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flying the bird.

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Speaker 4: But it you know, you're always in the middle of

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live breaking action and it's a lot of tragic, uh

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and dangerous situations. That's one thing to deal with with

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fires and building collapses.

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Speaker 1: And all kinds of issues.

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Speaker 4: Uh, you know, ice covered roads, a guy standing out

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there or waiting for a truck to come and clip them,

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and those kind of things are you know, something at

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least you can predict the danger of the situation. But

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this was totally random and out of control. And you know,

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I don't know if there's any way to preclude this

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kind of stuff. I really believe that as horrible as

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it is when you know when your tickets punched, there's

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not a lot of way to prevent something like this.

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And in terms of protecting yourself, it's the luck of

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the drawer or fate or karma or whatever you want

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to call it. It's horrible and to have it happen

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on the ear is just disgusting.

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Speaker 2: Well, they're really enraging. Thing is how politicized its being,

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and with today's social media, you can't you know, both sides,

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left and right are really diving into this. You know,

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as somebody who finds himself usually planted either firmly in

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the middle or way outside of the box and not

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having anything to do with the mainstream. You know, I

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just look at it that you know, this was a

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mental health issue. This was not a gun's fault, Adam

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and object's fault. Now I know. Actually, Irene and I

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have had many debates about gun control or having guns

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because living in the UK, you know, they don't have

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guns over there, not for the most part. You could

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get one if you get a permit or a license

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for it. And it's much different attitude in Europe, and

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a lot of Europeans look at us like, oh, it's

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those gun crazy Americans again, But I look at it.

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It's not the gun crazy Americans. It's the crazy Americans.

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And this is what I feel is really the heart

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of the issue here. But I don't know, there's going

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to be a lot of debate on both sides, and

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you know, I don't want to take up too much

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of our show tonight debating that because it's a passionate subject.

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But just again, our thoughts and prayers go out to

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those family members.

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Speaker 4: I think the unfortunate truth is, no matter where you

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fall down on that argument, there's no way in this

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country you're ever going to put that Genie back in

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the bottle, and it's unless you really eliminate all of

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the guns in the country, or virtually all of them,

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you're not going to stop it. I mean, Chicago has

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the stiffest gun control regulations in the country, and you know,

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their murder rate is just astronomical. So I don't think

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there is a good answer. Once again, if it's a

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different country, you know, you can't evolve the country back before.

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You know, you can't turn back time and prevent the

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guns from being here. And it's not good. We have

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raised the militaristic level across the country. Police departments are

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highly armed now with all kinds of crazy weapons, and

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so are the bad guys, and so it just keeps

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spiraling upwards. And like you said, this is a mental

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health issue. There's no way you're going to keep people

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from you know, going off their trolley. And if I

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can quote my father some of his rather interesting observations

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back then it was five million, he had seven billion

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people in the world. There's chances are a couple of

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them are going to be off their trolley, and so,

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you know, unfortunately now, I think one of the issues

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is because of social media and media communications everybody is

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aware of it instantly, and that makes it even seem

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more prominent than it would have been in the past,

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where it would take a while for that. You know,

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a murder in Chicago may not have ever been put

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in a printed in a paper in Washington, d C.

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Now it's obviously well known on CNN and fifty other outlets.

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So I think that has an impact to your perception.

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Is it's a lot more frequent than it was in

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the past, and statistically it really isn't. But that doesn't

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diminish the nature of it, in the horror of it,

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and it certainly doesn't minimize those who, you know, take

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perhaps Irene's position that, you know, the elimination of guns

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might be one of the answers. I just don't think

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it's a practical solution anymore.

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Speaker 2: So Well, just before we get really into anything else

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like that, well, we're going to sidetrack because I think

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we have a great guest tonight. Don't want to waste

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any more of his time. We want to bring him in.

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We've had this gentleman on the air with us over

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three years ago, so it's been a long time coming

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to have him back on. And since we have so

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many brand new listeners. I think you're going to be

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in for a treat. Our guest tonight is Jeff Mudget

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and Jeff is the author of the book Bloodstains. And

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what really is unique about Jeff is he is also

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the great grandson of the most notorious early serial killer

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in American history, AHH Holmes. So we want to welcome

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Jeff to the program. How are you tonight, Jeff.

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Speaker 6: Mark, I'm just fine, And I got to tell you

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it's a pleasure getting to meet you again, Bruce and Irene,

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and it's an honor being on your show. I've looked

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forward to it for quite a while.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're really happy to have you on. You said

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you want to say some bers.

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Speaker 1: No, I just want to thank you for those kind thoughts.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you've got an interesting background and we're really

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looking forward to talking to you about this whole piece

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of history which is so unique and so amazing.

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Speaker 1: So glad to have you here. We appreciate it.

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Speaker 6: Thanks well.

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Speaker 2: So what I'd like to have you do, Jeff? If

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you can start off for those people who may not

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be aware of your story, tell us a little bit

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about your background and how did you find out about

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your family history and your relation to this man who

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was best known as H. H. Holmes.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, I was a normal California trial attorney, had a

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little business in San Francisco, separated apart from the law.

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I had a nice house overlooking the Bay.

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Speaker 2: I'd worked.

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Speaker 6: I had gone to school at University San Diego to

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get my degrees, worked hard, prospering in the American way,

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and one night at dinner, which I try to accurately

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describe in my book, my grandfather revealed that he'd kept

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a secret from the entire family for over sixty years,

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a secret that he now thought it was time for

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him to reveal. And he told us that our ancestor

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are my great great grandfather. My grandfather's grandfather was the

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most notorious, evil, genius killer in American history. H. Holmes.

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His real name was Herman Webster Mudget. He went by H. H.

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Speaker 1: Holmes.

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Speaker 6: And my grandfather decided that the burden was just too

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much and he needed to get it off his shoulders

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before he died, and he told the family and my book,

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Mark Bruce Irene, is about the why the why someone

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becomes that kind of killer. Now you can a lot

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of books great books by great authors, The Devil in

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White City, The Torture Doctor Deranged about what HH Holmes

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was my book tries to stay away from that. I tried.

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I tried to talk with my readers about why someone

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who was so smart, so brilliant, one of the highest

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IQ's every quartered at the University of Michigan Medical School,

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someone who could have been a Louis Pasteur, decided to

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be the real life doctor Frankenstein, but right here in America,

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in Chicago, which to me is still amazing. And I've been,

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I've been, I've been talking about this story for over

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three years. As you mentioned, Yeah, I read the books.

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Speaker 2: And I read the book back when uh the uh,

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when we first had you on the show. And I

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have to say, for if anybody I view want a

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great read, please pick up the book. And I'm not

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just saying that because Jeff is on the show. I

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really thoroughly enjoyed it. I love the writing stuff and

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how you delved into this whole mystery of Herman Webster Mudget,

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who was this brilliant, brilliant person, but there was something

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seriously wrong with him, I mean, for what he started

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to get into. I mean when you found out that

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you were related to the serial killer. I mean, what

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was your initial reaction?

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Speaker 6: Oh god, the initial reaction with my brother and my

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cousins sitting around. You know, we were the normal American

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male punch each other in the shoulder, banter back and

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forth about it, and we were waiting for Grandma's dessert,

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so you know, we shoved it off. The next day

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when I woke up, it started affecting me immediately, and

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it started to the point where I was I knew

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my life, my characteristics were, I had idiosyncrasies, I had

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differences from their people. Now people asked me often, why

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would you write a book broadcasting that your lineage was

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this evil? I mean, this was the definition of evil.

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This wasn't this wasn't a psychotic, he wasn't crazy. This

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was a man who decided to be evil. When I

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when I answer that question now, and for the first

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three years, I didn't know how to do that. Now

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I tell them, listen, my family should be studied. None

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of my family after him committed a crime, let alone

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at jaywalking. They were military heroes, they were politicians, they

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were journalists, they were scientists. No one they all paid

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their taxes. No one committed a crime, and this is

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an example that genetics and DNA were not predispositioned to

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commit crime. It's a choice we make. And now I'm

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quite proud of my family and where we've gone, having

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this as our cornerstone as where we came from, because

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no one can deny we came from the absolute worst.

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Speaker 2: You came from the worst, and yet nobody else in

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your family was like that. And so do you feel.

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I know, there's been a lot of studies on the

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criminally insane or people we look at that our sociopaths, psychopaths.

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I took enough psychology in college that I know a

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little bit about it. But you know, these people who

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have absolutely no remorse, no feelings for other human beings,

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and they could kill without pity, without you know, even

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blinking an eye. And Holmes was truly one of the

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most horrific of the serial killers because of the tortures

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he would put people through, and not only just physical tortures,

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the mental tortures before he killed them. Truly an evil individual.

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And yet what do you think would make somebody like that?

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Do you think he just chose to be that way?

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Speaker 6: You know, Mark, now now we're getting Now we're getting

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into a realm where maybe Irene could step in and help.

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But this has to do with you and I trying

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to decide what Freud considered or was his intent. This

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man had such an intellect to try to try to

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discover his intent, I think is I certainly can't. All

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I know was he was psychopathic. There's no doubt about that.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 6: I know all three of you have researched what that means.

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Speaker 2: That term.

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Speaker 6: As a matter of fact, it was designed that term

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for Holmes. It was also a killer was designed for

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Holmes because they didn't have anything else to describe this monster. Now,

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I don't think he was psychotic. I don't at all,

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but there's no doubt that he was psychopathic. Now I'm

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not an expert in the field enough to tell you

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the exact differences between those and what makes a human

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being a psychopath and not a psychotic. All I know is,

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at any moment, Bruce, this man could have decided to

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be your doctor, and he could have been a great one.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I think in an effort to try to

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paint a more rounded and non monolithic picture him, because

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I think this is important in the total understanding of who.

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Speaker 1: This guy was.

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Speaker 4: There's other aspects that showed that he was not only

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had a predilection to violence. He did the whole insurance

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scam thing. And correct me if I've missed.

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Speaker 1: Any of the details of the master at it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, twelve thousand bucks for trying to do a deal

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with a corpse. He was a school teacher. He did

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a scam with the when I guess I'm not sure

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what town it was in, but I know he taught

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in Clinton County, New York. And it's interesting I live

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in Clinton, New Jersey, so maybe we have something in common.

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Speaker 1: I hope not.

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Speaker 4: But Mark would argue that point. But having said that,

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he did. He he forged his second father in law's

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name on some deeds.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 4: He did a take the money and run deal with

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one of the stores that he worked with, you know,

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took took a powder.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 4: So, so he really was a kind of broad spectrum

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of uh of crime and corruption beyond the most terrific

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and poigning point, and that is, of course, the murders

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and the torture and and disposing of the bodies and

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all that. But you know, as you said, here's a

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brilliant guy who's uh, who's got an incredible amount of

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mental capacity, But man, he's just got some wiring that's

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screwed up up in the upper balcony there. And so

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it's not just a violent person. And we could find

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people like that. Look at people serial killers like Ted Bundy.

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Look at how charming and intelligent he was. And I believe,

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with all due respect, I believe he was an attorney also,

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wasn't he?

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Speaker 1: But I digress.

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Speaker 4: But the interesting thing is that this was not a

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monolithic killer who was only involved in breaking the law

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in a very horrible and heinous, you know, a horrible way.

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He broke the law many times before that. Maybe he

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was just finding his niche where he felt comfortable. What's

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your thoughts on that.

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Speaker 6: Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

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It was a man who not only enjoyed torturing and

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experimenting upon living people down in his basement, which we'll

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get into later, but he also loved living elegantly anything

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expensive he wanted. This was a man who made three

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or four hundred thousand dollars a year in the eighteen nineties,

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which I haven't I haven't tried to run that out

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to what it would be the equivalent now, but I

335
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would imagine it's ten twenty thirty million dollars.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah. He loved to travel, he loved to have valais.

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Speaker 6: He had assistance with him, which makes him so different

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than the other killers you were mentioning. He had men

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helping him commit serial murders, which I don't know if

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there's ever been another like that.

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Speaker 1: That's an interesting point. How is he Is there any

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indication of.

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Speaker 4: How he was able to keep these guys quiet so

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that somebody didn't rat him out, because I you know,

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in reading the book, you understand, you know how he

346
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had to have accomplices to carry this out, and certainly

347
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the disposal to bodies was one area where he could

348
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do it all himself. Do you can you shed some

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light on how he was able to keep these guys

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in line?

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Speaker 1: Was it just by buying them off? It was the

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money that good that you know nobody ratted him out?

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Speaker 6: You know, I have a theory, it's way out there.

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But the New York Times wrote about at the turn

355
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the century there were people that considered Holmes the devil.

356
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I would think that if we had the chance to

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ask them, and they gave honest responses that these men

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considered him something of a god, of a devil that

359
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they honored, obeyed, and respected.

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Speaker 5: Well.

361
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Speaker 2: He was obviously very charismatic, not only because he was

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so learned going to medical school.

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Speaker 1: He was a doctor.

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Speaker 2: He achieved his doctor and was a practicing MD. And

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that just really blows me away. And of course he

366
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used that to his advantage later on. But you see,

367
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he was also he was charming to women. He was

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charming to people in general, and they had absolutely no

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clue to the horrific actions that he was capable of.

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Speaker 6: You know, he had four or five wives, maybe more.

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Mine was the only legal one because he never divorced

372
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my grandmother. I write about him visiting her asking for divorce,

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her refusing. Her name was Clara. She had my great

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grandfather there with her as a little boy when he

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visited him standing outside on the walkway, staring in the

376
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windows for hours, trying to decide what to do about

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her refusal to divorce him. She finally he finally just

378
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left let her live. And that's why I'm here talking

379
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with you tonight. So it's like I said earlier, to

380
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try to make up his mind for us to discuss

381
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what was in that head of his is very difficult.

382
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All I know is that he was pure evil. There

383
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was no remorse. He lied about remorse. He lied about

384
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remorse in his interview to the Hurst Papers in his

385
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prison cell awaiting execution. He lied about evil and his

386
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remorse on the at the at the trial which he

387
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fired his own lawyers and conducted the defense himself.

388
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Speaker 1: Now she your your great great grandmother, went back to

389
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,559
New Hampshire after that incident, right, I mean she never

390
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left return he left.

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Speaker 6: She never medical Michigan and then Chicago for medical school.

392
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He knew he had legal problems, although I don't quite

393
00:22:25,039 --> 00:22:29,039
understand why this man was concerned with any laws. He

394
00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:31,519
asked her for divorce. She refused. But then, like you said,

395
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he was very charismatic. He had hundreds of mistresses, so

396
00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:39,279
no telling how many children you know from his ex.

397
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Speaker 4: Colleagues that, yeah, I mean see, and you know, you

398
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look at some modern or recent other examples of brilliant

399
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,599
people that just go in the wrong direction. I mean,

400
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,759
one could argue that, you know, psychos like Mengela and

401
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,599
the experiments that they canted on human beings with absolute

402
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:08,680
clearly you know, uh, complete uh and utter inhumane look

403
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,920
at the people that are treatment of the people that

404
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:20,119
that he massacred and disfigured and and killed that It's

405
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,240
it's one of those, uh situations where there's a thin

406
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,880
line between a genius in a cycle. I mean, that's

407
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,319
that's the you know, the doctor Frankenstein is the guy.

408
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,000
He's brilliant, but you know it's in a twisted way,

409
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and he takes that brilliance and and just goes completely.

410
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Speaker 1: Aberrant with it. It's it's a scary proposition. Uh.

411
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Speaker 4: But he was clearly and I mean to excel and

412
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be the highest IQ or highest performing individual in medical

413
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school is certainly in any other forum would be a

414
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great honor. And this guy used it to I mean

415
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:03,640
things like how he built built, you know, to have

416
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,559
the tradesmen you know, fired and compartmentized the work so

417
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,400
nobody knew what was really going on, uh with the

418
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,960
with the various contractors. I mean, we'll talk about that

419
00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:19,359
more detail, but Uh, he was a very very highly

420
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,079
planned individual and what he carried out, and clearly, if

421
00:24:23,079 --> 00:24:25,079
he got away with it for as long as he did,

422
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,839
I guess if he hadn't tripped up the wrong guy

423
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,960
another crook. What was that guy's name, Hedge Hedgeworth or Hedgepath.

424
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,640
I guess he probably would have gotten on along a

425
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:37,720
great A great.

426
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Speaker 1: Number of people would have died. Perhaps.

427
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Speaker 6: I love the way you have described it because I

428
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:48,240
read an article an essay by Freud once who tried

429
00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:51,960
to explain how as your intellect went up on these

430
00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:57,759
geniuses that level, that line between genius and crazy becomes

431
00:24:57,839 --> 00:25:00,920
thinner and thinner to where it's very easy to cross

432
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,880
over at the top. And I certainly don't know what

433
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,759
it's like up at that top line, but down below

434
00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:10,920
where we normal people are, the line between normal and

435
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,440
crazy is this very strong, heavy concrete wall. But as

436
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,039
you move up, it gets thinner and thinner. And Freud

437
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:18,240
tried to explain that.

438
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 4: I can only relate to personal observation, and this is

439
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,200
not meant to disparage anybody.

440
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,759
Speaker 1: But for a number of years I was.

441
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 4: Doing television contract where corporate work down at Bell Labs

442
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,240
in Murray Hill. And I have to tell you with

443
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,839
it because it would sound very insulting, and it's not

444
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,359
meant to be. But there were some very unique individuals

445
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,400
in the cafeteria at Bell Labs in Murray Hill, and

446
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,400
I won't say anything more than that, but these were,

447
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,240
you know, undoubtedly brilliant people, but they had some very

448
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,240
quirky you know, dress codes and the way they ate

449
00:25:56,319 --> 00:25:59,160
and what they did and with their plates, and there

450
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,359
was some pretty creepy stuff going on there. I never

451
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,039
chose to eat in the cafeteria if I could avoid it.

452
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: And I'm not over exaggerating. It was kind of a

453
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,519
well known.

454
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 4: Anomaly, if you will, about working there as a contractor

455
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,720
or freelance employee. And so I think that bespeaks these

456
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,240
people are on another plane, and maybe the social skills

457
00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:28,319
that you know, maybe we all try to adhere to

458
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,279
in society don't really mesh too well with their level

459
00:26:34,319 --> 00:26:37,160
of mental capabilities. I don't know what the answer is,

460
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,079
but I've seen that firsthand to some degree in my observation,

461
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,480
and I may be completely incorrect, but it doesn't surprise me.

462
00:26:44,559 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of people that.

463
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,279
Speaker 4: Are operating on such a high level that they just

464
00:26:50,319 --> 00:26:53,440
don't get it and don't interact real well in social settings.

465
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,400
And I think that this is an extreme Perhaps I

466
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,079
would offer the suggestion that may this is an extreme

467
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,720
depiction of that kind of anomaly with these people. I

468
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,200
don't know, it seems to make sense.

469
00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:14,799
Speaker 2: I agree, Jeff, with the research that you did and

470
00:27:14,839 --> 00:27:17,839
what you talked about in the book was not only

471
00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:22,440
you found out about it through the family, but you

472
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,000
you had eventually according to the book. And this is

473
00:27:26,039 --> 00:27:28,279
something I want to ask you, and you know you

474
00:27:28,279 --> 00:27:30,400
can tell us to whatever you're willing to tell us.

475
00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:32,319
I know that there was a lot of the book

476
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,559
that you you novelized in order to get the whole

477
00:27:35,599 --> 00:27:38,720
story out and work on the facts, and I know

478
00:27:38,799 --> 00:27:40,880
sometimes you may have played a little bit with some

479
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,720
fictional aspects to it. But in the book you mentioned

480
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:51,119
about finding some of these old diaries of Holmes's, So

481
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,160
I have to really ask you, did you really find

482
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,480
those diaries or did you put a lot of what

483
00:27:55,559 --> 00:27:59,000
you knew together the story from other types of research.

484
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 6: You know, I decided to write my book based on

485
00:28:04,559 --> 00:28:08,880
a true story rather than what so many novelists do

486
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:14,480
these days, Mark with the Truman Capodi in Cold Blood model,

487
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,200
where they call their books nonfiction and then admit at

488
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,039
the end of the book that they've made certain parts up.

489
00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:28,279
I've never agreed with that. I have conjecture in my book.

490
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,640
I have theories in my book. There are gaps in

491
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,039
the Home story over and over again. I mean every

492
00:28:36,079 --> 00:28:38,720
week now we have something coming in to fill in

493
00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:43,359
another gap about Holmes. And as Hollywood grows, well, they're

494
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,480
falling in love with the story right now. I mean,

495
00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:48,680
American Horror Story just admitted that they're using the Murder

496
00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:52,640
Castle for their episodes this year, despite denying it earlier.

497
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,160
You've got DiCaprio, You've got Scorsese, going to make maybe

498
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:03,000
the most expensive epic ever made from this monster. I

499
00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:06,000
decided to write my story based on a true story.

500
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,559
I would not answer questions about it's something a fact

501
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,240
or not. I would prove those portions of my story

502
00:29:14,359 --> 00:29:17,319
true with evidence, because that's what I used to do

503
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,160
for a living. And that's why I'm going to prove

504
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,599
that he was the murderer of Catherine Etto's one of

505
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,519
the victims for Jack the Ripper. We're going to prove

506
00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:28,240
he was never executed, that it was the greatest hoax

507
00:29:28,319 --> 00:29:32,200
and fraud ever committed in American history, his execution. And

508
00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:35,839
we're going to also see if I can get one

509
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,799
of the ghost stories, one of the paranount normal investigators

510
00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:43,720
like ghost stories or ghost adventurers, who I'm hoping are

511
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,559
listening to your show tonight, and I challenged them last

512
00:29:46,599 --> 00:29:49,519
week on Coast to Coast. You know, instead of these

513
00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:53,119
little houses that you're investigating, let's go down into the

514
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,079
basement at sixty third in Wallace, where Harper's Magazine said,

515
00:29:57,119 --> 00:30:00,000
if ever life after death is going to be proved,

516
00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:03,640
it will be in Chicago at sixty third and Wallace.

517
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,920
And I tried to write about in the book there

518
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,440
is an energy in that basement. And I didn't believe

519
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,000
in ghosts. I didn't believe in the supernatural. I didn't

520
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,519
believe in God. Before I went down those steps an

521
00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:17,559
hour later, I believed in all three. And I'm just

522
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,200
dying to see one of these big stories with these

523
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,279
big stars that they have willing to go down there

524
00:30:23,319 --> 00:30:25,400
with me and prove to the world that there is

525
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,599
such a thing as an energy after death. And I

526
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:28,440
think we can do it.

527
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:30,799
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, on that note, I will say,

528
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,079
we might have some connections that could help you in

529
00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:36,599
that department. So we'll talk off air about that. You're

530
00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:37,759
going to say something burse.

531
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 4: Well, no, I was just going to offer, Yeah, I'll

532
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,920
contact a very close friend of mine, and we'll see

533
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,000
if we can put you in touch with that and

534
00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:47,720
make that happen.

535
00:30:47,759 --> 00:30:48,519
Speaker 1: I'm sure we can.

536
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,519
Speaker 4: I just spoke to him this afternoon and we'll discuss

537
00:30:51,559 --> 00:30:53,799
that off the air, and well, you know what, there's

538
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,079
no better way to find it out than to go

539
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,960
out there and do it. I think that's a fascinating concept.

540
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,559
And you know, well, you've got to go into the

541
00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:04,720
detail at some point in the In this evening about

542
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,319
I hope you got a lot of jackhammer time, because

543
00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:10,119
if you're going to open up that grave and prove

544
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,759
that there's nobody in it, it'll be interesting. And I

545
00:31:13,799 --> 00:31:17,759
and I you know, having been an investigative journalist, it's

546
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:21,200
funny because you're in Chicago, and I hope, I hope

547
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:25,039
Eraldo gets a good whiff of what happens when you

548
00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:27,319
really try to do the job right. I mean, the

549
00:31:27,359 --> 00:31:33,319
whole thing with Capone's Hidden Treasure was an interesting promotion,

550
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,079
but very little else. So I wish you a lot

551
00:31:36,079 --> 00:31:37,559
of luck in that. But I think that's a great

552
00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:39,960
way to contact Let's have the facts come out.

553
00:31:41,079 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 6: You know, I've been contacted by the Smithsonian and they

554
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:47,680
absolutely don't want this to be another Geraldo. They want

555
00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:50,759
to take control of the evidence. They want to see

556
00:31:50,759 --> 00:31:56,240
that it's handled properly scientifically. They've been reading my story,

557
00:31:56,359 --> 00:31:59,519
and you know, I got to tell you, I'm quite

558
00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:03,119
proud of the energy they're willing to put into this.

559
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,119
As soon as we break that tomb open, they're quite

560
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,680
they're quite questioning what remains will be left after he

561
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:14,200
was buried in cement all those years, or whoever was there.

562
00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:16,960
They're going to I'm going to offer up tissue. They're

563
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,759
going to they're going to supervise the DNA comparisons with

564
00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:23,799
what's in that tomb, and then we'll be able to

565
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,960
stand up to the world and I'll say either wait

566
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:28,960
a minute, I was a fool. It was him, he

567
00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:31,480
was the one that was executed. Or I'll get to say,

568
00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:34,680
see just like on just like on the radio show

569
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,160
with Mark and Bruce and Irene. See, I told you

570
00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:40,880
it wasn't him ever ever after, And I've got some

571
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,559
stories now to tell you about what he did after

572
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,039
that period, which will make the first book look like

573
00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:47,960
a comic strip.

574
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me throw this out there for

575
00:32:50,039 --> 00:32:53,599
you then, Jeff, and again, this isn't like questioning your story,

576
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,119
your credibility. But I want to throw this out there

577
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,759
just because I know people are going to be asking

578
00:32:57,759 --> 00:33:01,839
me this question, and that is you're told that he

579
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:07,039
is a member of your family family line, do you

580
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,799
have the documentation to prove that he was or is

581
00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:13,799
this family history being passed down. The reason I asked

582
00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:17,279
that is if they try to use your DNA sample

583
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,359
to do a match, what if he isn't a blood relative.

584
00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:23,319
Speaker 6: Oh it's a great question, and that's the type of

585
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:29,279
thing that evidence needs, that you need to establish those links. Now,

586
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,599
when I first wrote the bookmark It's funny you should

587
00:33:31,599 --> 00:33:34,599
say that I had quite a few challenges, just like

588
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,599
I do now stating that he was the murder of

589
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,960
Catherine Etto. As you can imagine the challenges I get

590
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,319
every day now. But back then, we had a challenger

591
00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:47,839
who was writing another book about Holmes, who went to

592
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,759
ancestry dot com. They did a very rapid check, made

593
00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:54,880
a mistake, and then they put out to the world

594
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,400
that I wasn't even related to HH Holmes. Well, I

595
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,559
had seen the genealogy that my grandmother had done. I

596
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,000
knew my grandfather, I knew my great grandfather who was

597
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,719
Holmes's son, and there was no question in my mind.

598
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,800
But we hired an outfit that put together one plus

599
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,679
one equals equals to two plus two equals four and

600
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,199
there's no there's no question that that's that's where we

601
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,880
came from, and we can prove it absolutely.

602
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: Well.

603
00:34:24,519 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 4: I think it needs to be said also that from

604
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,920
my perspective, the fact that you know you are an

605
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,800
attorney and you are used to presenting evidence that, at

606
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,000
least to the general standard of jurispuritence in this country,

607
00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:41,639
is beyond a reasonable doubt speaks highly to the background

608
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:43,880
that you bring to it. In other words, you were

609
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,159
not someone who uh you know, repaired cars for a

610
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,119
living and decided to go into this because you were

611
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:53,840
thrust into the family line. You do have the capabilities

612
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,719
and training and expertise in in trial attorney work to

613
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,519
you put together a case that will stand up and

614
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:07,119
bear scrutiny in court. And I think that's a testament

615
00:35:07,199 --> 00:35:11,400
to the validity of your conclusions. The diligence of the

616
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,239
work and the books speaks for itself. I mean, anybody

617
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,079
can follow the pathway and say, well, I'll just discredit

618
00:35:18,119 --> 00:35:20,039
it out of hand or accept it because it's pretty

619
00:35:20,039 --> 00:35:21,880
well documented, so good for you.

620
00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 6: Well, you know, Bruce, what I've done is especially about

621
00:35:26,039 --> 00:35:29,320
the Jack the Ripper evidences I've told, and I would

622
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,679
ask you three to do this for me as well.

623
00:35:32,119 --> 00:35:35,639
We're challenging any of the major universities in the world,

624
00:35:35,679 --> 00:35:39,800
any of the universities that teach law, the Harvards, they Yale,

625
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,800
the Oxford's, the Cambridges. All they've got to do is

626
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,039
fly me back, Okay, put me up at a lodge,

627
00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:48,280
pay for some food. I'll stand up in front of

628
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,719
an auditorium of their law students, their professors, their judges,

629
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,400
anyone they want to have in that room to contest

630
00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:57,519
my evidence. This is what I did for a living.

631
00:35:57,599 --> 00:36:01,440
I used to present forensic evidence at I'm willing to

632
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,840
stand up in front of one of those audiences, Bruce,

633
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,000
and have them debate me word for word about the

634
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,719
credibility of what I'm presenting. I did this at the

635
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,239
TED in front of an audience of four three thousand

636
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,760
people of lawyers, doctors, journalists, scientists. We took a vote

637
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,519
after I presented the evidence, and they only gave me

638
00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:27,039
fifteen minutes to prove beyond a recentatle doubt in fifteen

639
00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:30,960
minutes is tough. Okay, no lawyer's ever been asked to

640
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,480
do that in the history of law. We took a

641
00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:36,840
vote and we had over seventy five percent vote guilty

642
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,719
of that audience. So if you'll help me tonight, I'd

643
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,519
love to stand up at a Harvard or a Cambridge

644
00:36:43,559 --> 00:36:46,920
and present the evidence in a slower fashion. Give me

645
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,480
an hour, give me two. We'll do it at visuals

646
00:36:49,679 --> 00:36:52,440
and then they can decide what evidence they think is

647
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,159
credible or not. And I tell you what, I think

648
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,880
history needs it. I think history wants it, and I'd

649
00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,480
love to be the one that gets to show it.

650
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:07,119
Speaker 1: That is a wonderful challenge. That is the as a journalist.

651
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 4: That is the gold standard of what I, as an

652
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,639
investigator reporter trying to be as much as humanly possible

653
00:37:14,679 --> 00:37:19,559
on bias, ascribe to and say, hey, here it is.

654
00:37:20,199 --> 00:37:22,920
Let's bring it out in an open forum. If you

655
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,760
can tear it down, then I will stand corrected. But

656
00:37:26,639 --> 00:37:29,719
I'm willing for the sake of the truth being told

657
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,320
to put this under whatever scrutiny is the highest standard

658
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,519
that we can ascribe to in human endeavor to find

659
00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:41,880
out truth and fairness and go ahead, let the chips

660
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,239
fall or they may. There's no more honest way to

661
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,920
do it than that. And I think that that is

662
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,920
a very compelling offer. I have some connections around the country.

663
00:37:53,039 --> 00:37:55,039
Maybe we can find a venue that would do that.

664
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:56,159
Speaker 1: I think it would be.

665
00:37:56,159 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 4: Fascinating and from a school of law, it would be

666
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,599
an excellent hands on exercise for the law students to

667
00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:07,159
be involved in that and to evaluate both sides of

668
00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:11,559
that argument. I mean, that's that's a compelling and I

669
00:38:11,559 --> 00:38:13,639
think a very valuable offer for you to make. And

670
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,400
you know what it opens you to, however, the chips

671
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,440
may fall, and that's a very honest way to approach it.

672
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: Good for you. I'm impressed, and we'll talk about this

673
00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:24,880
after way to.

674
00:38:26,639 --> 00:38:27,639
Speaker 6: Trying to pull forward.

675
00:38:27,679 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 2: Thanks now, Jeff, with with Holmes and the research you

676
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,960
started to do, and again, as you mentioned, there was

677
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,199
a lot of a lot few other different books about homes.

678
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,360
I think the most famous was Devil in the White City, which,

679
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,119
as you alluded to before, is now currently in development

680
00:38:48,199 --> 00:38:52,920
as a major motion picture with Martin Scorsese directing and

681
00:38:53,559 --> 00:38:59,119
Leonardo DiCaprio playing HH Holmes. Now, I never read that book,

682
00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:01,119
and what I loved about your book was, of course

683
00:39:01,159 --> 00:39:04,960
how it got into Holmes's mind, your relationship is a relative,

684
00:39:05,559 --> 00:39:08,599
and how you handle that information. And again, so they're

685
00:39:08,639 --> 00:39:10,960
not basing it on your book, they're basing it on

686
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,360
the other book. And from what I understand, there wasn't

687
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,679
as much real homes in that book. There was a

688
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,760
lot of other stories in patting going on. So do

689
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,239
you think that they might try to look at your

690
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,360
book or other you look more into the homes legend

691
00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:29,519
about what he did, especially in Chicago.

692
00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 6: We've sold five books to Paramount, so I would imagine

693
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,880
they're looking at the way I put the story together. Now,

694
00:39:38,639 --> 00:39:42,320
mister Larson is an incredible writer, and The Devil in

695
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,519
the White City is a great book, which I completely recommend.

696
00:39:45,519 --> 00:39:46,800
I know I'm not supposed to do that.

697
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: But it is.

698
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,199
Speaker 6: It's he was a master marketer Mark. He called the

699
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,559
book The Devil the White City when probably seventy percent

700
00:39:56,599 --> 00:39:59,280
of the book was about Daniel Burnham, the architect of

701
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:06,320
the World's Fair. Now it worked. He sold millions of copies.

702
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,760
But my insiders in Hollywood tell me that's the problem

703
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,840
they have making the movie because they've written four scripts.

704
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,519
This is the fourth one they're trying to sell now

705
00:40:18,559 --> 00:40:21,360
that Paramount says they're ready to roll with, but they

706
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,039
haven't even got the strip the script yet. And it's

707
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:27,519
because of that problem that the book is about this

708
00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:32,239
this American historical figure Daniel Burnham and the World's Fair.

709
00:40:33,079 --> 00:40:36,400
But the people want to see a movie starring Leonardo

710
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,400
DiCaprio as AHH Holmes in the Murder Castle, and that's

711
00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:44,519
the issue they have. So you also, you know as

712
00:40:44,519 --> 00:40:49,239
a writer, when my author friends, every author friend I

713
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,360
know that's ever had a book turned into a movie,

714
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,960
they hate it. Every one of them hates it. And

715
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,760
I try to give the movie guys a break. Here.

716
00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:01,679
They're spending on undred and two hundred three hundred million

717
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,159
dollars on creating a story in two hours that you

718
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,480
got two or three years to write. It's not the

719
00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:12,280
same equation. They have a lot harder job, right.

720
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,039
Speaker 2: And coming from the film industry myself, I understand with

721
00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:21,800
the mechanics and the studio system and a lot of

722
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,800
how they'll take a great idea for a they'll take

723
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,360
a great book and then try to translate it into

724
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,000
a movie, and then depending on who's involved in the project.

725
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,000
It could either come out really good. You'll get all

726
00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:37,719
of you Stephen King as a perfect example. They've made

727
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,559
a million movies on his you know, two million books,

728
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,639
and you know, you can get a couple of great,

729
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,199
fantastic movies like The Shawshank Redemption or The Green Mile.

730
00:41:49,559 --> 00:41:51,639
Of course, those those had a lot to do with

731
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,719
Frank Darramant writing and directing those. Or you can get

732
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,480
you know, absolute pieces of garbage or movies that totally

733
00:41:59,559 --> 00:42:01,400
miss them. And I'm going to catch a lot of

734
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,079
flak for saying this, but I thought The Shining was

735
00:42:04,159 --> 00:42:10,119
crap because they totally Cooper he may be a master filmmaker,

736
00:42:10,519 --> 00:42:14,199
he totally missed the mark and what that book was about.

737
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,360
And the book was a million times better than what

738
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,639
he did. It was just Jack Nicholson hamming it up

739
00:42:19,639 --> 00:42:23,280
for two hours and they didn't even focus on the

740
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,639
scariest aspects of the book. So you know, and then

741
00:42:26,679 --> 00:42:29,400
there are some books where they'll take a book and

742
00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:31,920
literally the only thing that the movie in the book

743
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,519
have in common is the title, and that's it. Because

744
00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:37,039
Hollywood will buy the rights to a book and then

745
00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:39,159
they have the right to rewrite it. Anyway they want,

746
00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:41,960
and they can say, oh, it's you notice these days

747
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,960
you'll see a movie saying inspired by a true story,

748
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:47,840
not even based on a true story, because you know,

749
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,559
they're not even pretending, hey, this is a true story.

750
00:42:50,639 --> 00:42:52,280
We just made the whole damn thing up. But you

751
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,480
know what, this event inspired us, so now we're creating

752
00:42:55,559 --> 00:42:58,280
our own version of it. Yeah. So there's a lot

753
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:03,159
of manipulation, and of course, being big Hollywood, everything is

754
00:43:03,199 --> 00:43:06,360
written by committee. You know, every studio head has to

755
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,400
throw in their two cents. You know, another great Frank

756
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,280
Derebaunt movie I'll throw in is The Majestic. And in

757
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,519
the beginning of that movie, when it has Jim Carrey

758
00:43:16,639 --> 00:43:19,159
is the writer sitting in the room with the studio heads,

759
00:43:19,159 --> 00:43:21,159
which you never see him, You only hear their voices.

760
00:43:21,639 --> 00:43:23,559
And of course the voices are all played by you know,

761
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,079
Rob Reiner and Gary Marshall and then these other big

762
00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:30,239
name directors. But you know they're acting like typical suits

763
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,400
and they're taking this guy's story and they're throwing out

764
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,480
all these well why don't we put it like a

765
00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:36,519
dog in it, you know, make it more interesting? And

766
00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:38,280
then well, I have a kid with the dog and

767
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,920
all the things that have absolutely nothing to do with

768
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,360
the story. But you know, they're all trying to like

769
00:43:43,519 --> 00:43:45,280
market it in such a way so they could bring

770
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,159
in the widest audience, and they dilute the main part

771
00:43:48,159 --> 00:43:51,639
of the story. So you know, you get you get

772
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:55,960
a director like Scorsesey who has a lot of clout

773
00:43:56,199 --> 00:43:58,440
and can demand things, but he still has to answer

774
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,400
to the studios who were paying and funding's good, you know,

775
00:44:02,519 --> 00:44:05,480
so he can you know, has a lot of pull

776
00:44:05,519 --> 00:44:07,239
and sway, but in the end, it's the studio that

777
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,039
owns that story and the movie and they can pretty

778
00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:12,280
much do with it whatever they want.

779
00:44:13,159 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 6: You know. And what my friends are telling me is

780
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,960
that the writer, now, he's the one that wrote The

781
00:44:21,039 --> 00:44:23,840
Hunger Games, which is one of my favorite movies. My

782
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,280
daughter and I we can watch it three four times together,

783
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,199
and he's a great writer. He also wrote what's the

784
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,119
one of the Fella that does Them? That did the

785
00:44:33,159 --> 00:44:34,719
bombs in Iraq with the.

786
00:44:34,679 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 2: Song the hurt Locker, Yes.

787
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 6: The hurt Locker, which is another incredible movie. So what

788
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,199
he's trying to put together now, which he'll have to

789
00:44:44,199 --> 00:44:48,440
get approved by DiCaprio, by Scorsese. And then by paramount

790
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,840
is that Holmes and Burnham the architect knew each other

791
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,519
a matter of fact, that Holmes worked for Burnham now

792
00:44:56,559 --> 00:44:59,639
having practiced law in California. My intenna goes straight up

793
00:44:59,639 --> 00:45:03,800
in the air at that suggestion, because Burnham's family is

794
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,440
not going to be happy with the fact that their

795
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,320
ancestor is now being tagged with the most prolific serial

796
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,400
killer in the world. I don't know if that's going

797
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:14,039
to work.

798
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 2: They but the family may may not like it. But

799
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,719
again we get down to they've already bought the rights

800
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,519
to the book and the story and historical figures. Unfortunately,

801
00:45:24,519 --> 00:45:27,679
in Hollywood a fair game. Most most movies you see

802
00:45:27,679 --> 00:45:31,119
with historical figures in there, there's very real, very little

803
00:45:31,159 --> 00:45:36,639
real history involved. So, you know, Hollywood playing around with history,

804
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,960
much to the chagrin of surviving family members, is nothing new.

805
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,440
So if they want to do that, they're not going

806
00:45:43,519 --> 00:45:46,000
to be worried about upsetting the family for what they

807
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,480
do with an historical figure that not too Let's face it,

808
00:45:48,559 --> 00:45:50,599
not a lot of people out there really know who

809
00:45:50,599 --> 00:45:51,960
he is, you know, and.

810
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,039
Speaker 6: You're probably right, and let's face it, you've got the

811
00:45:54,079 --> 00:45:57,119
greatest probably some of the greatest litigation attorneys in the

812
00:45:57,119 --> 00:46:00,119
world in LA working for Hollywood, so they know the issue.

813
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:02,519
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and they and they also know if they

814
00:46:02,559 --> 00:46:05,480
get sued or whatnot, they know how to outspend the competition.

815
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,159
So yeah, yeah, I mean, Hollywood, it's a it's a

816
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,039
vicious cycle. But you know, if if in the right hands,

817
00:46:12,039 --> 00:46:16,199
and I think with Scorsese, who's an amazing director, and

818
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,880
even Leonardo DiCaprio, who he really is an amazing actor,

819
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,480
sometimes it takes it's hard for some people. Here, my

820
00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:24,519
movie Guy is coming out, so you know, I'll talk

821
00:46:24,559 --> 00:46:27,599
a little movies here. You know, people think, oh, he's

822
00:46:27,599 --> 00:46:30,280
that kid from Titanic, he's just his kid actor. Well

823
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,960
he's in his forties now and he's a damn good

824
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,039
actor in most plays of things that he's in. Although

825
00:46:37,039 --> 00:46:39,519
sometimes I think scorz Asey really needs to start working

826
00:46:39,519 --> 00:46:41,599
with somebody else. But hey, that's just me.

827
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,159
Speaker 1: Now let's get back to the story. Yeah, the story,

828
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,400
some of the details if we can, right, That's.

829
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 2: Where I was going next, which was with Holmes, when

830
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,800
you were you ever able to figure out in your

831
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,960
research when around the time he actually started to commit murder.

832
00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 6: That's a great question which hasn't been answered. Now there

833
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,119
are historians in New Hampshire. He grew up in Gilmington,

834
00:47:08,159 --> 00:47:11,519
New Hampshire, a darling little town that if you ever

835
00:47:11,519 --> 00:47:14,800
get the chance to go back in American history, you

836
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,679
can drive up and do it in one day. It's

837
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,719
an amazing little place that still has the house that

838
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,039
Holmes grew up in. The owners allowed me to go

839
00:47:25,159 --> 00:47:27,800
up into his bedroom and look out the mirror he talked,

840
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,599
the windows that he talked about staring out of watching

841
00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:35,000
people walking by. The church that I write about is there.

842
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:37,840
I got to tell you when I walked in and

843
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,320
sat down, I had chills going up and down my body.

844
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,519
I had to get out. It was it was threatening.

845
00:47:44,039 --> 00:47:47,320
I'm an epileptic and it was threatening my condition. I

846
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,840
had to get out of the church. And then the

847
00:47:50,159 --> 00:47:55,440
school that he taught elementary school at still stands. Now.

848
00:47:55,559 --> 00:47:58,039
Think about that if you're a mother and a father

849
00:47:58,159 --> 00:48:02,239
right now with a small child. H H. Holmes, your

850
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:03,360
child's teacher.

851
00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, for having John Wayne Gacy come and do a

852
00:48:10,599 --> 00:48:14,239
you know, a clown demonstration at your kid's birthday party?

853
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:15,280
Speaker 1: How about that? Exactly?

854
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 2: Well, it's all hindsight. It's because people don't know and

855
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,320
these uh, you know, these guys, they they all operated

856
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:29,840
for years. Bundy Gacy, they even Holmes, operated for many

857
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,400
many years before they got caught or before you know,

858
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,639
the enough happened that they had enough evidence to come

859
00:48:36,639 --> 00:48:37,800
out against them.

860
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 6: Now back to your question, I kind of sidestepped. There

861
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,920
is a winery owner there now who bought the property

862
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,239
from the I always miss her name. She was the

863
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:55,280
author of Peyton Place. Do you both either one of

864
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,960
you remember that incredible author that wrote that story.

865
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,199
Speaker 2: Anyway, I don't remember her name, but I know the book.

866
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, they bought the property, turned it into a winery.

867
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,159
They think they can prove that his first murder was

868
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,719
committed at the creek behind that house, and it was

869
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,360
when he was six years old. I have no evidence

870
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,320
to back that up, but they're telling me they're working

871
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,000
on it right now.

872
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:21,679
Speaker 2: Now. There's also a lot of evidence with people who

873
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,400
grow up to be the serial killers, either early childhood

874
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:31,519
traumas or they started exhibiting psychotic cruel behavior as kids.

875
00:49:31,559 --> 00:49:35,559
You know, kids who torture animals or have suffered some

876
00:49:35,679 --> 00:49:40,559
kind of abuse. And in your book you mentioned that

877
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,119
Holmes actually had some kind of abuse happened to him

878
00:49:44,119 --> 00:49:44,719
when he was young.

879
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was I write about him being raped as

880
00:49:48,599 --> 00:49:56,559
a small boy another by a man, and people ask me,

881
00:49:56,599 --> 00:49:59,320
do you think that's what caused him to be the

882
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,199
monster he grew up to be? And I tell them no,

883
00:50:02,639 --> 00:50:05,559
And I think I explained it in the book. His

884
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:18,000
discussion of that event was so logical, so mathematic, that

885
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,800
he was considering how he was going to use it

886
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,079
to further his purpose, rather than going home crying to

887
00:50:24,119 --> 00:50:26,920
his mother and telling his father that he needed to

888
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:31,079
be avenged. And so I really don't think there was

889
00:50:31,119 --> 00:50:34,719
an event that caused him to be evil. I like

890
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,079
the slogan that we used from Holmes when he gave

891
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:40,800
the interview with Hirst on the cover of my book,

892
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,480
I was born with the devil in me. He has

893
00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:46,960
been with me ever since. I think that pretty much

894
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,119
sums up who he is. And when someone buys my book,

895
00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:52,760
I asked them to stare into his eyes. Those are

896
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,679
his eyes on the cover. Stare into the eyes and

897
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,119
see what comes back to you. And I think it's

898
00:50:59,159 --> 00:51:03,159
a different human being, maybe not even of our race.

899
00:51:03,639 --> 00:51:08,679
That was he, So you know, that's I know where

900
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:10,719
you're going. People ask me a lot about, you know,

901
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,800
episodes in his childhood that could have created this monster.

902
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:14,679
Speaker 2: I don't think it.

903
00:51:14,599 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 4: Was well, I would contend that did. Some of these

904
00:51:18,519 --> 00:51:22,480
folks are once again on this high level of functioning

905
00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:30,440
in terms of intelligence in the quotes respecting that he

906
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:35,599
completely disconnected himself from the horror of being raped as

907
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:40,800
a child and was very analytic in the description of

908
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:42,880
how he dealt with it even as a child. So

909
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:47,960
he was able, as a sociopath can do, to disassociate

910
00:51:48,039 --> 00:51:52,280
himself with any of human emotions, empathy, compassion, any of

911
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:58,679
the attributes that we ascribe to ourselves as human beings, good, bad,

912
00:51:58,679 --> 00:52:03,760
are indifferent which brass above the you know, the inculcated

913
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,119
reactionary actions of a lion or tiger that you know,

914
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,800
tears the head off a young animal because it's hungry,

915
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,119
and it doesn't show any compassion for the fact that

916
00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:17,840
he's just done something that's pretty gross. So I think

917
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,639
that that able to do that ability to disconnect is

918
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:23,519
telling that, yeah, you know what, it didn't have an

919
00:52:23,519 --> 00:52:25,960
impact on him in terms of turning the way he

920
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,440
would spend the rest of his life, perhaps, but It

921
00:52:28,599 --> 00:52:30,639
just was an indication that at six years old, you

922
00:52:30,639 --> 00:52:33,760
could take another person's life and even think along those

923
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,559
lines or not not be pretty remorseful after doing it.

924
00:52:37,639 --> 00:52:39,679
I think that's pretty telling if you look at it

925
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:40,719
from another point of view.

926
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 6: I like to think what he took from the incident, Mark,

927
00:52:45,039 --> 00:52:49,119
was that this thing that we try to teach our

928
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,280
children about good and bad and the symbols for each

929
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:59,159
maybe wasn't as strong as his parents and his church

930
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,400
had been teaching him, and that he walked away from

931
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,920
that thinking, you know, the rules are off, I'm going

932
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,400
to do this the way I want to.

933
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 2: Well, he was definitely a very wilful human being, very

934
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,960
calculating and cold, and it seemed like everything he did

935
00:53:16,039 --> 00:53:19,440
he put a lot of thought into it before he

936
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,760
undertook it, which is part of the reason why he

937
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:27,320
went for years and years without being discovered exactly.

938
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 6: And it's like, Mark, you bring up a great point.

939
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,800
It's why I believe in the law school dictionaries, in

940
00:53:35,199 --> 00:53:38,840
the journals they should have when they try to define premeditated,

941
00:53:39,119 --> 00:53:41,800
they should just put a picture of the murder castle up.

942
00:53:42,079 --> 00:53:50,960
Here's a building that this man probably murdered his employer

943
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:55,360
seduced the widow, had her put his name on her

944
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,920
life insurance policy to where when she died he was

945
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,159
left their proper. He bought the property across the street

946
00:54:02,199 --> 00:54:10,000
at Junction Grove built this immense hotel building a lifestyle

947
00:54:10,079 --> 00:54:12,840
up above, and then the basement down below his factory

948
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,400
of death. In the three or four years that he

949
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,000
had before the World's Fair showed up in Chicago, this

950
00:54:19,159 --> 00:54:22,480
greatest event in world history. Were millions from all over

951
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,360
the country and world showed up. And he had planned

952
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,280
this the whole time, as I like to think it

953
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,519
of as like the lion overlooking the savannah. He knew

954
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,880
these millions of people were going to flood and overload

955
00:54:36,199 --> 00:54:39,039
law enforcement in Chicago. They wouldn't be able to keep

956
00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:42,280
track of hardly anyone that actually lived there, let alone

957
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,760
the tourists that visited. And he was going to have

958
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:45,360
fair game.

959
00:54:47,679 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 2: It's amazing, really, I mean, is there somebody who's that

960
00:54:52,079 --> 00:54:55,440
calculating and planning ahead? I mean, right now, if you

961
00:54:55,519 --> 00:54:57,880
talk to most people in modern culture, when you think

962
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,920
of who real evil serial killers, I mean, you could

963
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:07,320
throw out Bundy, you could throw out Ramirez and and Gasey,

964
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,519
but then you know, it's the fictional people like in

965
00:55:11,599 --> 00:55:14,559
Hannibal Elector. Everybody knows Hannibal Elector, and you know the

966
00:55:14,599 --> 00:55:18,760
Anthony Hopkins and then the TV show as you know,

967
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,639
Calculating serial Killers, but they're really not as detailed as

968
00:55:23,639 --> 00:55:26,760
Holmes was. I don't know if anybody in modern in

969
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,199
the last hundred years who could really hold a candle

970
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:34,400
to homes in terms of how devastating intelligent intelligent he

971
00:55:34,639 --> 00:55:39,159
was and planning to such meticulous detail. I mean, and

972
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:40,800
you know, we're coming up on our top of the

973
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,719
hour break here in a few minutes, so we'll definitely

974
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,880
be getting more into detail about the castle. But his

975
00:55:46,159 --> 00:55:51,000
planning and the architecture and how he created this huge

976
00:55:51,039 --> 00:55:54,840
building for the sole purpose of murder and nobody had

977
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:59,079
a clue. I mean, it's just it's just outstanding. Now

978
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,480
now today the basement you talked about, you know, going

979
00:56:02,519 --> 00:56:04,559
in and trying to do a paranormal team, and I

980
00:56:04,639 --> 00:56:06,199
just want to cover this real quick before we go

981
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,840
to break it is currently the post office is a

982
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:13,840
post office still operating upstairs? Yes it is. And what's

983
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,360
in the rest of the building.

984
00:56:17,039 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 6: Well, you've got a huge post office above the basement now.

985
00:56:20,559 --> 00:56:23,400
I at chapter twenty seven of Bloodstains, I write about

986
00:56:23,559 --> 00:56:27,760
our first time into the basement, and which pretty much

987
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,320
separates me apart from the other authors, you know, the

988
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:34,800
author of Devil and White City, the torture Doctor or Deranged.

989
00:56:35,159 --> 00:56:37,559
Those authors never went into the basement at the post

990
00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:43,880
office themselves. When I and my friend tried to gain entrance,

991
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,360
we were refused. It was barricaded the door down the

992
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,880
steps into the basement. The employees thought it was haunted.

993
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:55,199
They didn't use the basement in the United States Post Office.

994
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:59,199
It took us four hours to talk their boss into

995
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,000
letting us in to that basement. It was only because

996
00:57:02,039 --> 00:57:04,559
we fibbed and told them we were part of a

997
00:57:04,599 --> 00:57:06,920
Hollywood film crew and that some of the employees might

998
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,239
be getting bit roles in the in the documentary. So

999
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,960
they let us down into the basement. And I write

1000
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:18,440
about that first descent down those stairs, and it was

1001
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:20,079
that hour changed my life.

1002
00:57:20,119 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 4: It Uh.

1003
00:57:22,079 --> 00:57:24,559
Speaker 6: My neurologists have told me what I had was a

1004
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:31,639
common seizure, very common for epileptics. When I asked them,

1005
00:57:31,719 --> 00:57:36,440
how could I have known the exact location of apparatuses

1006
00:57:36,519 --> 00:57:39,280
in the basement when I had never seen it or

1007
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:44,159
drawings about Holmes's basement before. They didn't have any answers,

1008
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:48,960
only that, you know, their medical school training allowed them

1009
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:50,679
to tell me you'd had a seizure. We're going to

1010
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:52,760
give you some pills, you know, and you won't have

1011
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,159
one again. Well, I continued having them with Holmes talking

1012
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,039
to me about his exploits and and that's what I

1013
00:58:00,079 --> 00:58:01,199
tried to capture in the book.

1014
00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:03,599
Speaker 4: Let me hold you right there, because we're going to

1015
00:58:03,639 --> 00:58:05,599
take our break at the top of the hour. And

1016
00:58:05,679 --> 00:58:09,000
if this story isn't scary enough and compelling enough, the

1017
00:58:09,039 --> 00:58:12,519
fact that it's all true is enough to keep you

1018
00:58:12,599 --> 00:58:15,320
coming back and listen to the second part of our interview.

1019
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:17,840
But on top of that, we're going to tie in

1020
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:20,920
a link to Jack the Ripper and the evidence that

1021
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,039
falls out of that. So don't go anywhere. We're going

1022
00:58:23,079 --> 00:58:25,400
to be right back with Unknown Origins Radio on the

1023
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,599
Dark Matter Radio Network, So don't go away.

1024
00:58:34,039 --> 00:58:37,480
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1025
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1066
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Speaker 9: Day.

1067
01:02:21,119 --> 01:02:24,199
Speaker 3: Folks back, Race, no.

1068
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:34,519
Speaker 2: We don't Know, Jeff and welcome back everyone To Unknown Origins.

1069
01:02:34,599 --> 01:02:38,360
Radio here on The Dark Matter Radio. Network I'm Mark

1070
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:42,880
johnson along With Bruce pearson and our executive Producer Irene Allen,

1071
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:47,320
block and we are talking with our Guest Jeff, mudget

1072
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:55,000
author of the Book, bloodstains discussing his great GRANDFATHER. H. H,

1073
01:02:55,159 --> 01:02:59,679
holmes a serial. Killer and, uh you, know it's been

1074
01:02:59,719 --> 01:03:02,280
a great first hour and really can't get into the,

1075
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:04,159
UH i can't wait to get into the second. Hour.

1076
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:09,400
Uh the we started talking about The Murder castle itself

1077
01:03:10,119 --> 01:03:15,280
and the the design That holmes put into it in

1078
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:20,239
years ahead of, time between finagling his way in into

1079
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:24,519
getting the, building uh, building the hotel and all the

1080
01:03:24,639 --> 01:03:26,719
special little things he. DID i was wondering if you,

1081
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:29,719
could you, know for people who who who don't know

1082
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,440
as much about The Murder, castle can you describe for

1083
01:03:33,519 --> 01:03:38,400
them exactly some of the, modifications special special little goodies

1084
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:42,119
That homes put into each of the. Rooms, YEAH i.

1085
01:03:42,079 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 6: Think the most. Fascinating and you've got to you've got

1086
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:47,639
to remember about the home. Store and this is this

1087
01:03:47,719 --> 01:03:51,119
is WHAT i found Out mark working on this, story

1088
01:03:51,159 --> 01:03:56,239
researching every FACT i. Could most of the story is

1089
01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:02,960
written is repeated by authors who google an article from

1090
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:06,239
The New York times or The Chicago papers from a

1091
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:12,199
reporter who wasn't even. There and now we have the home,

1092
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:15,079
story AND i started finding out the DEEPER i dug

1093
01:04:15,079 --> 01:04:20,039
into each, piece the less was actually. True, so having

1094
01:04:20,199 --> 01:04:23,360
never been to the original murder, CASTLE i can only tell.

1095
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,760
You i'll do my best describing. It but it's from

1096
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:33,360
articles from reporters who weren't. There, Okay so we know

1097
01:04:33,559 --> 01:04:36,360
that people used to stay on the second floor that

1098
01:04:36,519 --> 01:04:42,119
was the. Hotel we know that certain rooms were selected

1099
01:04:42,159 --> 01:04:47,159
By holmes as the ones he directed his next. Victims.

1100
01:04:47,199 --> 01:04:52,039
Too they had gas. Vents he could either asphyxiate them

1101
01:04:52,079 --> 01:04:54,840
in the, room and he was one of the pioneers of.

1102
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,400
Gas he could either asphyxiate them in the room or

1103
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:02,960
render them unconscious to where his assistance would enter and

1104
01:05:03,119 --> 01:05:08,840
send the unconscious victim or body down a greased chute

1105
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,960
and it would wind its way down to where other

1106
01:05:13,039 --> 01:05:16,960
assistants would catch her on a gurney and prepare her

1107
01:05:17,039 --> 01:05:20,280
for the doctor and his torture and. EXPERIMENTS i, mean

1108
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:23,960
when you when you think about the movies Of, frankenstein

1109
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:27,079
in the book you read Of, Frankenstein Mary shelley's awesome,

1110
01:05:27,159 --> 01:05:31,320
work this was. It this was the. One and when

1111
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,880
you think About Hannibal lecter in The silence of The,

1112
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:37,639
lambs this was. It this was the real, one and

1113
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:42,079
that that basement was designed for him to conduct his.

1114
01:05:42,199 --> 01:05:47,599
Work i'm convinced it was about. Longevity i'm convinced he

1115
01:05:47,719 --> 01:05:51,760
was interested in female victims because of their. Ovaries i'm

1116
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:55,360
convinced he was interested in extracting the chemicals which allow

1117
01:05:55,719 --> 01:06:00,960
which would allow him to solve aging and he could live.

1118
01:06:01,039 --> 01:06:04,119
Forever that's What i'm convinced he was. After CAN i prove. That,

1119
01:06:04,199 --> 01:06:08,639
no it's a. Theory, now it's got evidence backing it,

1120
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:12,039
up but it's. Circumstantial so, now when those bodies were

1121
01:06:12,079 --> 01:06:16,199
on the, gurney he would conduct his, experiments remove whatever

1122
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:20,199
piece of the body he was interested. In his assistance

1123
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:23,159
would prepare the, body stripping the flesh so that he

1124
01:06:23,159 --> 01:06:27,639
could sell the skeletons to medical schools around the. Country

1125
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:30,639
i'll give you an interesting. ANTIDOTE i was at a

1126
01:06:30,639 --> 01:06:34,599
book signing In. Iowa professor came up to me said

1127
01:06:34,639 --> 01:06:38,239
that they had just had a meeting at the university

1128
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,920
that they were going to remove the skeleton from their

1129
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:46,000
medical school museum because they were convinced they had bought

1130
01:06:46,039 --> 01:06:50,239
it From. Homes, WELL i sent chills up and down my.

1131
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:57,039
Spine so he made a fortune in. Skeletons Scotland yard

1132
01:06:57,039 --> 01:06:59,239
believes there was An american doctor at the time of

1133
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,400
The rippers trying to sell skeletons to The university Of

1134
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:08,519
London Medical. School, now once that skeleton was, prepared the

1135
01:07:08,559 --> 01:07:11,920
rest of the flesh, remained and as you, know having

1136
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:15,920
done the show and studied serial, killers that's where killers

1137
01:07:16,559 --> 01:07:20,000
are caught from the remains of the, body which has the,

1138
01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:24,039
evidence which you know creates an mo which allows the

1139
01:07:24,079 --> 01:07:29,440
police to identify the. Killer, Well holmes made a factory

1140
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,920
where he could eliminate that. Waste he had, acid, bass

1141
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:37,079
he had furnaces which were hot enough to create, glass

1142
01:07:37,639 --> 01:07:43,199
his own crematorium, hotter, hotter even that hot enough to create. Glass.

1143
01:07:43,599 --> 01:07:47,159
Wow so this was a Man that's like WHEN i

1144
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:51,519
was talking about premeditation and the definition of it's. H. H.

1145
01:07:51,639 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 2: Holmes, now you, know when you mentioned some of the

1146
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:00,360
things that they would do with the gas and and

1147
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,920
the body, shoots it almost sounds like something that's out

1148
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,440
of a comical haunted house or something that you would

1149
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:10,599
find in an amusement. Park but this was serious. BUSINESS i,

1150
01:08:10,599 --> 01:08:13,320
mean he had keys to every. Room so if they

1151
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:15,719
knock somebody out pump gas, in they, could you, know

1152
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,319
go in and get the body or the unconscious person

1153
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:23,000
at any time and dump them down the. Chute people

1154
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:25,279
would think it's the. Garbagechute they wouldn't know any wiser,

1155
01:08:26,119 --> 01:08:26,520
well and he.

1156
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,560
Speaker 6: Could he had eye holes where he could watch the

1157
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:32,439
victim as she as the gas was introduced in the,

1158
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:36,880
room and he could regulate how much he wanted and

1159
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,720
the purpose he was after with this particular. Suspect so

1160
01:08:40,119 --> 01:08:44,279
when you talk about comic this wasn't anywhere like. That

1161
01:08:44,359 --> 01:08:46,520
this was a man who stood outside and waved to

1162
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:53,119
the neighbors who was their neighborhood, doctor who lured you,

1163
01:08:53,159 --> 01:08:55,720
know tourists and ones he knew he wouldn't be caught

1164
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:59,880
having killed into those rooms on the second floor where

1165
01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:00,760
he could asphyxiate.

1166
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:03,520
Speaker 2: Them, well, yeah because these were people who were coming

1167
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:08,199
To chicago and coming from cities from all Across, america

1168
01:09:08,239 --> 01:09:12,239
who wouldn't be missed right, away and they just disappear

1169
01:09:12,279 --> 01:09:14,399
in the crowds and nobody wouldn't even know that they

1170
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:14,880
were there or.

1171
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:19,520
Speaker 6: Gone their family never. Knew i've had two or three

1172
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:23,720
ladies come up to me and very. Nice i've only

1173
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:27,720
had one woman violently react to meeting me because she

1174
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:30,399
thought one of her ancestors had been murdered By, holmes

1175
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,439
WHICH i. Understood you, know it's not my. FAULT i

1176
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,359
didn't have anything to do with, it BUT i understand that,

1177
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:38,760
reaction that human. Reaction but the others were very.

1178
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:41,119
Speaker 2: Polite they wanted to.

1179
01:09:41,159 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 6: Know they actually told me they didn't hold it against,

1180
01:09:44,119 --> 01:09:48,479
me WHICH i walked away thinking how great is the

1181
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:51,479
human race that someone could have that reaction to me

1182
01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:53,760
and their ancestors'.

1183
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:58,319
Speaker 2: Demise but you, know at the same, time you know

1184
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:05,319
the whole sins of the. Father you can't blame pat you,

1185
01:10:05,319 --> 01:10:11,279
know future generations for the despicable acts of their ancestors

1186
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:15,119
because they're different human. Beings they're not those. People so

1187
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:19,000
when you mentioned how one person got really nasty with,

1188
01:10:19,039 --> 01:10:23,600
you being that What holmes did to her. FAMILY i understand,

1189
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:25,680
that you, know they feel, bad they're upset with what

1190
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,039
happened to their, family but it's not your.

1191
01:10:27,079 --> 01:10:29,800
Speaker 1: Fault, yeah But, mark let's be realistic.

1192
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 4: Here up until finally they put a lid on, it for,

1193
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:38,720
generations the sectarian violence In Northern ireland was based, on you,

1194
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:43,800
know just a repetitive set of you, know going back

1195
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,520
to get even with the other, side back and, forth

1196
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:49,760
back and. Forth and the second and third generation involved

1197
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:53,960
in in that horrible conflict up there hardly knew what

1198
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:54,239
it was.

1199
01:10:54,239 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 1: About but it was a tradition.

1200
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:59,359
Speaker 4: If you're you, know and like with Shin, feine to

1201
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:05,319
Blow british regulars or or bomb you, know department stores

1202
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:07,960
or bus. Stops and the other side of the coin

1203
01:11:08,119 --> 01:11:11,760
was to go after the folks that were In shinfein

1204
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:16,000
or that were. Separatists SO i think it's there's there's great,

1205
01:11:16,039 --> 01:11:19,399
traditions if you, will as sick as they are of

1206
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:23,079
people carrying on a tradition of, hatred you, know there's

1207
01:11:23,079 --> 01:11:27,479
still comments, made as silly as they, are you, know

1208
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:29,960
about the differences in The Civil war in this. COUNTRY

1209
01:11:30,079 --> 01:11:33,680
i mean one and fifty sixty years, ago so so human. Nature,

1210
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:37,239
unfortunately as logical as what you're, saying and honestly truthful

1211
01:11:37,319 --> 01:11:40,800
is what you're. Saying people aren't truthful and. Logical they're

1212
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:44,960
emotional and carry on traditions and sometimes not even understanding

1213
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:45,600
what was behind.

1214
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: Them that's my, opinion.

1215
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 2: TROLL i was going to blow, off you, know the you,

1216
01:11:49,039 --> 01:11:51,199
know dismiss the other one just by, saying, well you

1217
01:11:51,279 --> 01:11:54,119
know it's The, IRISH i mean what? Else but but you,

1218
01:11:54,119 --> 01:11:56,279
know AND i could say that Because i'm Part, irish

1219
01:11:56,319 --> 01:11:58,479
so you, KNOW i got The i've got the right.

1220
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:00,640
Here i'm a Fuken ginger as they like to.

1221
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:04,279
Speaker 6: Say but ever gone to The university Of, Dublin.

1222
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:06,520
Speaker 2: No i've. Never i've never been to THE.

1223
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:07,520
Speaker 1: Uk no.

1224
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:11,680
Speaker 6: Of the off the beaten path a little, bit BUT

1225
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:15,239
i walked through it. Once you will be amazed at

1226
01:12:15,279 --> 01:12:18,119
how many of the things we take for granted The irish.

1227
01:12:18,199 --> 01:12:21,479
INVENTED i was, astounded you.

1228
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:25,479
Speaker 2: Know and The irish had their, own you, know, discrimination

1229
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,279
especially in the time of homes from the early to

1230
01:12:30,199 --> 01:12:33,600
late eighteen hundreds when they all immigrated over, here and

1231
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:35,880
they were treated just as bad as a lot of

1232
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,239
the other ethnic, minorities so they had they had a

1233
01:12:39,239 --> 01:12:43,079
lot of adversity to overcome when they got. Here but

1234
01:12:43,159 --> 01:12:46,399
we are. Discressing let's get back and talking a little.

1235
01:12:46,399 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 6: Bit.

1236
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 4: WELL i think this is a perfect time to Bring

1237
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:51,000
irene in if she's if she will weigh in on,

1238
01:12:51,039 --> 01:12:54,560
this being that she lives In Great britain and she

1239
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:57,960
needs to withhold you, know UPHOLD i should, say maybe

1240
01:12:57,960 --> 01:12:59,920
she wants to withhold some, evidence but she wants to

1241
01:13:00,279 --> 01:13:01,960
if she, wants we'd like to ask her to come

1242
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:05,079
in as soon as you can and weigh in on

1243
01:13:05,199 --> 01:13:07,720
side of giving the brid sequel time in this, argument

1244
01:13:08,159 --> 01:13:10,479
because we are going to go across the pond and

1245
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:14,279
do the most amazing link in this story before the

1246
01:13:14,359 --> 01:13:18,039
hour is up about the tie in With jack The

1247
01:13:18,119 --> 01:13:20,800
ripper and you, know The East end and The White chapel,

1248
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:25,399
murders and maybe let's continue on and finish the story

1249
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:26,039
out of Mister.

1250
01:13:26,039 --> 01:13:26,840
Speaker 1: HOLMES i think it's.

1251
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 4: Fascinating one item That i'd like you to, discuss and

1252
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:34,640
that is why was the trial done In? Philadelphia was

1253
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:36,439
that just a change of venue because of all the

1254
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:39,479
publicity surrounding it is normal the case the change the

1255
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:42,119
venue and capital crimes are now you.

1256
01:13:42,079 --> 01:13:44,239
Speaker 6: KNOW i think you're. Right it was the venue. Change

1257
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:48,880
larsen did a great job of carrying in his book

1258
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:51,680
about the. TRIAL i didn't go too much into the

1259
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:58,159
legal back and, FORTH i. DO i was, Fascined i'll

1260
01:13:58,159 --> 01:14:00,479
tell you. THIS i was, fascinating and it was only

1261
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:03,840
about the two children that he. Murdered from his, assistant Mister,

1262
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:09,439
petzel there was never an investigation or a, trial even

1263
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:12,920
an investigation of any of the murders that occurred at

1264
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:16,800
The Murder, castle which to, me while WHY i liked

1265
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:20,520
shows like yours and the help you give me telling these,

1266
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:24,359
STORIES i find. Amazing, here you, guys go take. This

1267
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:28,560
we have a federal government that bought The Murder castle

1268
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:31,079
in nineteen thirty. Seven, okay it didn't burn to the,

1269
01:14:31,119 --> 01:14:33,399
ground standing. Erect i've got a picture of it with

1270
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:35,399
a pickup truck right next to. It we can establish

1271
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:39,279
the exact year the federal government bought The Murder. Castle

1272
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:45,159
knowing what it was and had, been they tore it.

1273
01:14:45,199 --> 01:14:48,359
Down they built a post office over the, top in

1274
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:51,800
violation of federal, law and knowing they had a responsibility

1275
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:57,239
to investigate the. MURDERS i sent an fi, letter requests

1276
01:14:57,239 --> 01:15:00,359
and letter To President obama and His department Of Justice Attorney.

1277
01:15:00,439 --> 01:15:04,600
General nothing nothing. BACK i asked, them come, on let's

1278
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:08,399
do the right. Thing let's investigate what's. There let's try

1279
01:15:08,439 --> 01:15:10,680
to put these things to. Bed let's let's try to

1280
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:13,760
put them the. Rest at, least let's erect a monument.

1281
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:18,600
THERE i told THEM i would fund a bronze monument

1282
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:21,119
on the property of the Post office to the, victims

1283
01:15:21,119 --> 01:15:24,239
not The, holmes not to the, monster to the. VICTIMS

1284
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:27,000
i got nothing. BACK i got something. Back they told

1285
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:28,720
ME i could plan a Bush.

1286
01:15:29,279 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 1: HUH I i love and help me do the right.

1287
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 4: Analogy, here BECAUSE i think this is spot, on AND

1288
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:41,399
i think this opens up an entirely another another pathway

1289
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:45,760
for a. Show but let me draw an. Analogy let's

1290
01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:53,319
go To New York post nine to. Eleven Uh, giuliani

1291
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:57,600
one of the most highly regarded prosecutors in Recent american,

1292
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:03,560
history never could duct did a forensic investigation for the

1293
01:16:04,359 --> 01:16:07,720
hundreds and hundreds of people murdered in The World Trade. Center,

1294
01:16:08,359 --> 01:16:11,079
now is that not along the same lines of an

1295
01:16:11,119 --> 01:16:16,279
avocation of constitutional and judicial responsibility to conduct a Forensic

1296
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:21,199
the most heinous mass murder In american, History no forensic

1297
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:25,520
investigation was ever done on the, building on the, steel

1298
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:30,039
on the. REMAINS i think you see a parallel, here

1299
01:16:30,319 --> 01:16:33,239
the fact that he was a reasonable request to, say

1300
01:16:33,399 --> 01:16:35,840
let's go into that basement and excavate and see if

1301
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:39,399
there's any forensic evidence, left and at least let's acknowledge

1302
01:16:39,399 --> 01:16:43,680
that people were many people were murdered. There and like you,

1303
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:50,520
say you're, not you, know applauding the, Murderer you're acknowledging the.

1304
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:52,920
Victims and why would you get nothing back from AN

1305
01:16:53,039 --> 01:16:56,720
foi request in that. Nature that's that's pretty creepy in

1306
01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:59,399
and of, Itself but that's an entirely different. Show would

1307
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:02,880
you agree or disagree with my point on that he was.

1308
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:05,199
Speaker 6: A federal prosecutor and there should have been an. INVESTIGATION

1309
01:17:05,279 --> 01:17:06,920
i guess he was relying on the video of the

1310
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:08,199
airplane striking the building.

1311
01:17:08,239 --> 01:17:13,239
Speaker 1: Alone, well, yeah that's pretty.

1312
01:17:13,239 --> 01:17:17,880
Speaker 4: Thin that's that that's prima facia evidence, Perhaps but you're the,

1313
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:21,159
Attorney i'm. Not you're The you're you're the expert in that.

1314
01:17:21,279 --> 01:17:24,520
AREA i don't think that would hold up under many other. Cases,

1315
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:28,239
uh the fact that you see a car uh t

1316
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:32,439
bone another car at an. INTERSECTION, uh does not allow

1317
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:37,920
the prosecutor to not look into any any other evidence

1318
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:40,239
that may you, know whether it was the person was

1319
01:17:40,319 --> 01:17:43,560
drunk or under the, drugs or in a fit of,

1320
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:46,159
rage or it was a revenge type of. Thing you

1321
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:50,199
can't just jump to that conclusion based on, on, uh you,

1322
01:17:50,239 --> 01:17:54,319
know first person testimony or witnesses or even a. Videotape

1323
01:17:54,359 --> 01:17:56,520
is that is that ARE i, mean you're the you're

1324
01:17:56,600 --> 01:17:59,640
the expert. Jurisprudence i'm not by any, Means but is

1325
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:00,760
that A is that a factual?

1326
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:01,199
Speaker 1: Statement?

1327
01:18:02,039 --> 01:18:04,159
Speaker 6: YEAH i think there's a lot of questions about what

1328
01:18:04,279 --> 01:18:07,680
happened that day and the, country the government owes the

1329
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:10,239
people answers to.

1330
01:18:10,279 --> 01:18:13,239
Speaker 4: ME i just wanted to DRAW i just thought it

1331
01:18:13,279 --> 01:18:16,279
was an interesting analogy that we just accepted move.

1332
01:18:16,319 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 1: On and it's interesting.

1333
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:22,359
Speaker 4: Because weren't the wasn't the word on the street that

1334
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:25,560
it burned, down burned to the, ground and it was

1335
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:30,199
not demolished by the. Government isn't that what got out

1336
01:18:30,239 --> 01:18:33,279
in the folklore about the murder?

1337
01:18:33,319 --> 01:18:34,359
Speaker 1: Castle is that? Correct?

1338
01:18:35,319 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 6: Precisely and that's one of the reasons why when we

1339
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:39,479
started the, SHOW i told, HIM i.

1340
01:18:39,399 --> 01:18:40,600
Speaker 1: Told you both all.

1341
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:44,319
Speaker 6: Three listen when you asked me facts about the, Story

1342
01:18:44,359 --> 01:18:46,479
we've got to be careful because so much of it

1343
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,600
is based on what a journalist says, happened and then

1344
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:54,039
an author copying that journalist statement stating it as. Fact

1345
01:18:54,079 --> 01:18:57,359
and the burning to the ground is perhaps the most.

1346
01:18:57,439 --> 01:18:58,840
Dramatic it never burned to the.

1347
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:01,399
Speaker 1: Ground, wow that's pretty.

1348
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:05,760
Speaker 2: Creepy so they tore it to the, ground leaving government the. Basement,

1349
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:09,279
yes building their new building on top of. It but

1350
01:19:09,319 --> 01:19:12,199
the abasement is still. Original and as you were mentioning

1351
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:15,239
when you were able to finagle your way in, there

1352
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:20,680
that you were mentioning how the post office employees didn't

1353
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:21,520
even like going down.

1354
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:25,640
Speaker 6: There it's not. Original and if you watch On History

1355
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:29,520
channel The Haunted, history they followed me down with a

1356
01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:32,600
couple of film crews into the basement With Adam, seltzer

1357
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:36,399
a friend of mine From. Chicago we went down into the.

1358
01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:42,600
Basement there are two original tunnels from When holmes owned the.

1359
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:46,239
Building they were his escape. Tunnels if ever the police

1360
01:19:46,319 --> 01:19:48,760
would come in the front door of his, hotel he

1361
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,199
was going to escape through these tunnels out the other

1362
01:19:51,279 --> 01:19:53,319
end of the. Street he never had to use. Them

1363
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:58,119
so Those when The Post office built the new, building

1364
01:19:58,319 --> 01:20:00,920
they tore down the original base and they put a

1365
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:01,760
new basement in his.

1366
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:02,359
Speaker 1: Place it's.

1367
01:20:02,399 --> 01:20:07,640
Speaker 6: Offset there's many arguments from historians And holmes authors and,

1368
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:12,199
experts so called experts about whether the dimensions of the

1369
01:20:12,239 --> 01:20:14,680
basement then and now and how it lays over the.

1370
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 2: Top who.

1371
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:18,640
Speaker 6: Knows ALL i know is there are two original tunnels

1372
01:20:18,680 --> 01:20:24,000
down there still from When holmes constructed his Original.

1373
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:30,159
Speaker 2: Now you also have talked about the paranormal, aspect and

1374
01:20:30,199 --> 01:20:34,680
of course this being a paranormal based, show you, Know

1375
01:20:35,079 --> 01:20:38,880
i'm very interested in to hear about what some of

1376
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:41,600
your experiences were when you were down. There you said

1377
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:47,640
you were actually hearing during this epileptic, seizure Hearing holmes's

1378
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:50,239
voice talking to you telling what he. Did did anybody

1379
01:20:50,279 --> 01:20:52,000
else have any other experiences down?

1380
01:20:52,039 --> 01:20:56,079
Speaker 6: There, yeah my Friend Kim mesti's did, also AND i,

1381
01:20:56,239 --> 01:20:59,960
said the neurologist told me it was an epileptic. EPISODE

1382
01:21:00,159 --> 01:21:03,319
i never believed. THAT i THOUGHT i knew what happened

1383
01:21:03,319 --> 01:21:05,079
to me WHEN i went down in that. Basement and

1384
01:21:05,159 --> 01:21:08,479
LIKE i, Said i'm not a. PARANORMALIST i don't believe

1385
01:21:08,479 --> 01:21:11,800
in little girls on tricycles in hallways of, hotels that

1386
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:18,640
type of. Thing i've always, believed As freud described and

1387
01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:24,920
as the other great, scientists there is an energy after.

1388
01:21:25,079 --> 01:21:27,680
Death energy just doesn't. Disappear it's like.

1389
01:21:27,840 --> 01:21:28,840
Speaker 1: Water and we all know.

1390
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 6: That we all know that from The hubble telescope and

1391
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:33,760
the galaxies in the universe and all the stuff we're seeing.

1392
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:35,600
Now we're you, know as a matter of, fact we're

1393
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:39,079
gaining more information now in these last ten years than

1394
01:21:39,119 --> 01:21:42,920
the human race has had since we've been. Started And

1395
01:21:43,479 --> 01:21:46,399
i've always known there was an energy after, death and

1396
01:21:47,119 --> 01:21:49,680
we're going to prove it in the next maybe ten,

1397
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:52,119
years maybe twenty, years but it's going to be proven.

1398
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:57,039
Now Harper's magazine wrote that if ever the paranormal were

1399
01:21:57,119 --> 01:22:00,119
to be, proven it would be in that base and

1400
01:22:00,119 --> 01:22:03,560
at sixty third walls The Murder. Castle they knew. It

1401
01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:06,960
they felt it. Too the employees feel, it visitors feel.

1402
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:11,479
IT i felt, it but someone. Serious that's Why i'm

1403
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:14,880
trying to find figure out why these ghost. Shows are

1404
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:17,880
they afraid to go into that basement to prove the

1405
01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:21,079
actuality of that. Energy i'm not sure they've had years

1406
01:22:21,119 --> 01:22:21,319
to do.

1407
01:22:21,399 --> 01:22:24,560
Speaker 2: It, well here would Be my question is is it

1408
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:27,000
the ghost shows not trying to get in, there or

1409
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:31,840
because it's a federal, building the federal government with the

1410
01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:35,960
post office there are they Getting is anybody allowed to

1411
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:37,960
go in there and do an? INVESTIGATION i, mean who

1412
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:40,199
would you need to? Contact you need to get permission

1413
01:22:40,199 --> 01:22:42,960
to get in? There and maybe you, Know i've dealt

1414
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:48,640
with local issues with state governments with locations here in

1415
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:52,439
The northeast that are notorious for being, haunted but you

1416
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:55,239
can't get into them because the state owns, them and

1417
01:22:55,279 --> 01:22:58,159
they absolutely refuse to have anything to do with. It

1418
01:22:59,119 --> 01:23:02,920
ringuin manor prime example up. Here so many great stories

1419
01:23:02,920 --> 01:23:05,560
out of their. Hounds holzer wrote about it in his

1420
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:11,560
phenomenal book from the seventies about. Ghosts but these days

1421
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:15,079
you try to talk to the state park system runs,

1422
01:23:15,079 --> 01:23:17,279
it they don't even want to talk about. It they,

1423
01:23:17,319 --> 01:23:20,840
Refuse they don't want to be associated with. It they

1424
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:23,520
only want to be known for the history and not anything,

1425
01:23:23,560 --> 01:23:27,079
paranormal even though the place is just hopping with. Activity

1426
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:31,159
so it seems with the you, know my question would,

1427
01:23:31,199 --> 01:23:35,000
be has anybody even tried asking to get in? There if,

1428
01:23:35,039 --> 01:23:36,960
so who would they need to talk? To and have

1429
01:23:37,039 --> 01:23:37,640
they been turned.

1430
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:40,800
Speaker 6: Down i've been in three. TIMES i went in with

1431
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:44,680
The History. Channel my agent In, chicago a friend Named.

1432
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:47,680
Susan i'll if she clears me giving her name out

1433
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:50,880
over the, Air i'll give you her. Name she had

1434
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:54,600
the Post office IN dc Clear History channel going down

1435
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:56,920
into the. Basement they were required to give a five

1436
01:23:57,000 --> 01:24:01,680
thousand dollars check for a charitable. Donation and when the

1437
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:04,319
Ghost hunters asked me about IF i was willing to

1438
01:24:04,399 --> 01:24:07,399
go down with them on a, SHOW i, said, sure

1439
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:11,000
but you're going to have to write a check to

1440
01:24:11,079 --> 01:24:13,920
a charitable nation of the Post office is selection of.

1441
01:24:14,039 --> 01:24:18,039
Choice and for some reason they balked despite making millions

1442
01:24:18,039 --> 01:24:18,439
from their.

1443
01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:21,960
Speaker 2: Show well that's sci fi And pilgrim, films and that

1444
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:22,720
doesn't surprise.

1445
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:24,399
Speaker 1: Me doesn't surprise me at.

1446
01:24:24,399 --> 01:24:26,880
Speaker 4: ALL i could have predicted that, one for, you knowing

1447
01:24:27,319 --> 01:24:29,880
WHAT i do about the whole. Organization so that's a.

1448
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:33,000
Shame so it's not a question of The Post office

1449
01:24:33,039 --> 01:24:35,880
putting political blockades in the.

1450
01:24:35,920 --> 01:24:37,800
Speaker 1: Way that's a good. Sign so that could be.

1451
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:43,119
Speaker 6: DONE i think history can be. MADE i Think i'd

1452
01:24:43,159 --> 01:24:46,399
be willing to set aside my medicine and go down

1453
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:50,359
without the protections THAT i have because Of i've had

1454
01:24:50,359 --> 01:24:53,680
a long theory about AND i know you've had guests

1455
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:58,039
on your show before about how there are there are

1456
01:24:58,159 --> 01:25:02,039
people who believe epileptics have this ability to feel that

1457
01:25:02,319 --> 01:25:06,880
energy may be more so than. Others AND i told

1458
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:08,600
the Ghost Centers i'd be willing to go off my

1459
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:10,560
medicine for a couple of days to go down into

1460
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:12,319
the to the basement with them to see what we

1461
01:25:12,359 --> 01:25:16,479
could figure out THE i.

1462
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,880
Speaker 2: Don't, know you, know there's the theory that epileptics could

1463
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:22,520
be more open to. IT i know Doctor Barry taft

1464
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:25,439
has done a lot of research over the years and

1465
01:25:25,479 --> 01:25:27,960
in his, book and we had him on the show

1466
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:31,199
a couple of years. Ago you, know he said he

1467
01:25:31,239 --> 01:25:35,680
observed that most people who have this activity are epileptics

1468
01:25:35,680 --> 01:25:38,520
are haven't run in the. Family, NOW i don't believe

1469
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:41,520
that everybody who has paranormal experience is. Epileptic i'm, sorry

1470
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:45,680
it just doesn't. Happen BUT i do think that there

1471
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:49,520
could be a correlation of people who are epileptic because

1472
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:53,079
of the way the brain is wired and it's, misfiring

1473
01:25:54,359 --> 01:25:59,279
it could make them more susceptible to certain types of.

1474
01:25:59,359 --> 01:26:02,239
Speaker 6: ENERGIES i can only tell you, this AND i tried

1475
01:26:02,239 --> 01:26:04,119
to describe it in the. Book this friend of mine

1476
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:07,439
WHO i played college basketball, With we've known each other

1477
01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:12,439
thirty five. Years he went down with. Me he AND

1478
01:26:12,479 --> 01:26:16,239
i are like. Brothers the voice wanted me to kill

1479
01:26:16,359 --> 01:26:20,720
him and was telling me how to do it in the,

1480
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:25,159
basement and actually arranged for the custodian from the post

1481
01:26:25,159 --> 01:26:27,239
office to have to go upstairs to get.

1482
01:26:27,279 --> 01:26:30,079
Speaker 2: Something the voice in the basement was talking to, you

1483
01:26:30,199 --> 01:26:31,319
telling you. This oh.

1484
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:33,600
Speaker 6: Yeah AND i tried to describe in the. Book AND

1485
01:26:34,239 --> 01:26:37,079
i let my readers Decide mark And bruce Whether i'm

1486
01:26:37,159 --> 01:26:40,279
crazy Or i'm telling them WHAT i, Saw and you know,

1487
01:26:40,319 --> 01:26:42,600
what that's up for them to. Decide ONLY i can

1488
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:45,079
only write WHAT i felt. Now WHEN i went down

1489
01:26:45,119 --> 01:26:47,199
with The History, channel with all the film crews with,

1490
01:26:47,239 --> 01:26:53,399
me nothing not an ounce of, energy, nothing you.

1491
01:26:53,439 --> 01:26:55,079
Speaker 2: Know and a lot of that is because of the

1492
01:26:55,119 --> 01:26:56,960
film crew and the way they go down with all

1493
01:26:57,000 --> 01:27:00,640
the electronics that they're bringing, down and having done many

1494
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:03,279
of these types of, investigations when you bring up the

1495
01:27:03,279 --> 01:27:07,359
big toys and the and the, investigators these things have

1496
01:27:07,399 --> 01:27:10,039
a habit of drawing up and hiding but when you

1497
01:27:10,119 --> 01:27:12,840
were down, there it was just you and your friend that, time.

1498
01:27:13,279 --> 01:27:14,840
Speaker 6: The three and the custodian from there the.

1499
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:19,359
Speaker 2: Custodian so, again you don't have people in there looking

1500
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:23,600
specifically for this type of, activity and it's playing, on you,

1501
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:30,039
know isolating people and. Weaknesses from a psychological, standpoint it's

1502
01:27:30,399 --> 01:27:34,880
very reminiscent of what we refer to as demonic, activity

1503
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:38,439
that type of isolation to isolate the victims and then

1504
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:41,640
start messing with them, psychologically which is what it sounds

1505
01:27:41,680 --> 01:27:41,880
like for.

1506
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:46,760
Speaker 6: You it was an amazing event for me in my.

1507
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:49,359
LIFE i, know AS i explained, earlier WHEN i came

1508
01:27:49,359 --> 01:27:52,960
back up those, STEPS i believed In, god the, supernatural

1509
01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:53,159
and the.

1510
01:27:53,239 --> 01:27:57,079
Speaker 4: Paranormal, well and that's just the. Point whether people believe

1511
01:27:57,119 --> 01:28:03,720
it or, not these life changing episodes are something that

1512
01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:06,880
no one will ever be able to dissuade you.

1513
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 1: From and if you.

1514
01:28:09,159 --> 01:28:13,079
Speaker 4: Accept some of the research and authors and interviews that we've,

1515
01:28:13,119 --> 01:28:16,279
done and you Know i've in some form or, Fashion

1516
01:28:16,479 --> 01:28:20,359
i've been researching this and trying to understand it like

1517
01:28:20,560 --> 01:28:22,960
so many other people for the last forty years, Now

1518
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:30,039
if you would accept the possibility of a parallel existence

1519
01:28:30,039 --> 01:28:33,520
of some type shape or form of that, soul that,

1520
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:38,560
entity that life, force that was this, monster then it's

1521
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:44,279
very possible that that type of communication could take. Place you,

1522
01:28:44,319 --> 01:28:49,279
know there's no doubt about the viability of psychic, phenomena

1523
01:28:49,399 --> 01:28:54,760
the ability to read and determine places of murder and so.

1524
01:28:54,840 --> 01:28:58,159
FORTH i, mean the Program Psychic. Detectives if you had

1525
01:28:58,159 --> 01:29:01,560
any doubt about, that watch that law enforcement and prosecutors

1526
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:04,279
and everybody else acknowledge there's no way these people could

1527
01:29:04,319 --> 01:29:06,720
do what they. Do so if that's the, case then

1528
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:11,239
why is it any less plausible that our friend could

1529
01:29:11,279 --> 01:29:13,800
have communicated to you if it was in fact the

1530
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:19,039
spirit or some type of communication from that, entity to

1531
01:29:19,079 --> 01:29:21,479
try to convince you to continue, that you, know the

1532
01:29:22,159 --> 01:29:25,319
heinous kind of crimes that took place in the eighteen.

1533
01:29:25,359 --> 01:29:26,880
EIGHTIES i think it's.

1534
01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:32,920
Speaker 1: Very at a very, logical dispassionate.

1535
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 4: Level THAT'S i, mean you can't dispute, that and Certainly

1536
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:37,600
i'm not going to convince you of that you had the.

1537
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:40,319
Experience so no matter WHAT i say or anybody. Else you,

1538
01:29:40,319 --> 01:29:43,399
Know i've had, many many people that have had these,

1539
01:29:43,439 --> 01:29:46,000
experiences And mark will agree with me because he's heard,

1540
01:29:46,039 --> 01:29:49,319
people you, know at the point where it's this cathartic.

1541
01:29:49,399 --> 01:29:52,119
Experience you don't care what other people. Think you, KNOW

1542
01:29:52,199 --> 01:29:54,000
i care if you Think i'm. Crazy i'm. NOT i

1543
01:29:54,079 --> 01:29:56,560
know WHAT i, SAW i know WHAT i, experienced and

1544
01:29:56,800 --> 01:29:58,760
it's changed my view of the. World as you just,

1545
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:03,800
SAID i think it's an amazing honesty that you come

1546
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:06,319
forth and say that and let the chips fall where they.

1547
01:30:06,399 --> 01:30:08,399
May that's something that could never be proven one way

1548
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:11,159
or the, other but it adds to the mosaic to, say,

1549
01:30:11,439 --> 01:30:14,800
hey there's enough evidence, here there's enough possibility here that

1550
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:16,800
maybe there's something to. It and IF i had the,

1551
01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:18,680
answers i'd be. RICH i wouldn't be on this. Show

1552
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:21,359
i'd be you, know eating bond bonds in someplace Where

1553
01:30:21,359 --> 01:30:22,960
i'd like to, be In fiji or.

1554
01:30:22,960 --> 01:30:26,439
Speaker 6: Something, Actually i'm enjoying the show quite a. Bit IF

1555
01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:29,359
i was a, billionaire i'd still be on. It It's

1556
01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:31,159
i'm having a great. TIME i can tell you. This

1557
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:32,920
WHEN i went on THE, TED i stood up in

1558
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:36,199
front of that audience and told them about my experience

1559
01:30:36,199 --> 01:30:39,640
in that, basement THAT i believed in that, energy and

1560
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:42,600
THEN i told, Them, okay now let's wipe that slate.

1561
01:30:42,720 --> 01:30:46,159
Clean i'm going to present evidence to you as, prosecutor

1562
01:30:46,239 --> 01:30:48,159
And i'm going to have you. Decide as my Grand,

1563
01:30:48,199 --> 01:30:50,720
jerry we swore that audience. In we did it again

1564
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:54,039
In michigan up In Sue Saint. Marie we swore that audience,

1565
01:30:54,039 --> 01:30:56,199
in AND i, said, now wipe all that stuff. Clean

1566
01:30:56,439 --> 01:30:59,960
we're going to present evidence to you whether probable cause

1567
01:31:00,159 --> 01:31:04,319
exists THAT Hh holmes Killed Catherine etto's In. London and

1568
01:31:05,079 --> 01:31:09,600
they did. To, uh to their, credit they wiped everything.

1569
01:31:09,640 --> 01:31:12,159
Clean and then they stood there and considered the. Evidence

1570
01:31:12,159 --> 01:31:14,960
and we almost had a unanimous vote about three weeks

1571
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:15,239
ago In.

1572
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:19,319
Speaker 2: Michigan well Before that's WHAT i want to get into.

1573
01:31:19,399 --> 01:31:21,479
Next but real, quick it is the bottom of the.

1574
01:31:21,479 --> 01:31:24,880
Hour we're talking With jeff mudget, uh the author of

1575
01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:30,079
the Book bloodstains about his RELATIVE Hh, holmes his great

1576
01:31:30,119 --> 01:31:36,520
grandfather and, uh the the you had presented in the

1577
01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:38,680
book and uh and you've we've talked with you a

1578
01:31:38,720 --> 01:31:42,039
little bit about this in the. Past some compelling evidence

1579
01:31:42,359 --> 01:31:47,359
that at least, one if not possibly, more of the

1580
01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:53,079
murders attributed To jack The ripper In london may have

1581
01:31:53,239 --> 01:31:54,720
been caused BY Hh.

1582
01:31:54,760 --> 01:32:02,640
Speaker 6: Holmes we can prove that he killed. ONE i don't

1583
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:04,840
have any evidence connecting him with the.

1584
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:06,119
Speaker 2: Other four or.

1585
01:32:07,680 --> 01:32:13,800
Speaker 6: Sixth some aripperologists say, five some say. Seven we can

1586
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:18,479
prove he Murdered Catherine ETOs and as a previous prosecutor

1587
01:32:18,479 --> 01:32:21,520
and trial. Attorney that's What i'm sticking. With. Now if

1588
01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:25,000
the world demands we prove more than that, ONE i

1589
01:32:25,039 --> 01:32:26,880
can't do, it, No BUT i can do this.

1590
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:30,600
Speaker 2: One, now how did you? Know how do you know

1591
01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:34,199
That holmes was there In london when it.

1592
01:32:34,279 --> 01:32:38,560
Speaker 6: Happened, well And i'll explain that to you as we

1593
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:41,960
get to the last thirty. Minutes but we think we

1594
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:44,479
know what ship he wrote over on there's a passenger

1595
01:32:44,479 --> 01:32:48,279
list still in. Existence we're going to check that passenger,

1596
01:32:48,319 --> 01:32:51,399
list checked the, handwriting it was signed by each. Passenger

1597
01:32:51,880 --> 01:32:55,079
we'll run it by the computer that we have working

1598
01:32:55,119 --> 01:32:58,960
for us at The university Of, buffalo which works for

1599
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:02,600
The department Of justice and The Post office comparing their handwriting.

1600
01:33:02,680 --> 01:33:08,920
Needs we also know that he wrote letters From london

1601
01:33:09,119 --> 01:33:13,520
back to his lawyer in The United, states complaining about

1602
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:16,399
what paper his favorite, paper how he couldn't get The

1603
01:33:16,439 --> 01:33:20,720
New York herald while he was In. London then from

1604
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:25,479
the postmarks and the dates the letters were, received The

1605
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:29,319
Dear boss letter and The Saucy jack. Postcard it would

1606
01:33:29,359 --> 01:33:32,680
have been impossible for him to have written those letters

1607
01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:37,039
From New york or from The United states because letters

1608
01:33:37,039 --> 01:33:39,640
had to travel by ship and they took seven days

1609
01:33:39,680 --> 01:33:43,560
to get across and we have the. Postmarks so by

1610
01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:49,399
establishing with proof that he wrote the, letters we proved

1611
01:33:49,399 --> 01:33:50,920
that he was In london at the time of the.

1612
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:56,399
Speaker 2: Murder now the murder of the one And i'm SORRY

1613
01:33:56,399 --> 01:34:02,199
i did not remember her, Name Catherinetto's. Cathernetto's now there

1614
01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:06,039
was within the last year or two was there was

1615
01:34:06,079 --> 01:34:10,079
a big deal over In london where they supposedly found

1616
01:34:10,119 --> 01:34:17,000
SOME dna evidence in the suspects for The ripper. Case And,

1617
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:20,920
irene are you there of living over? There is wondering

1618
01:34:20,920 --> 01:34:24,159
if if you had any commentary on that particular part

1619
01:34:24,159 --> 01:34:24,920
of the, Case.

1620
01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:28,680
Speaker 1: Leslee give her a second to come up to the.

1621
01:34:28,720 --> 01:34:34,359
Speaker 5: Mic but, Sorry, Elo, Jeff i've been. Listening is absolutely

1622
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:37,479
fantastic and you're scared the living day lights THAT i, mean.

1623
01:34:39,399 --> 01:34:40,439
Speaker 1: Especially for the gory.

1624
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:44,399
Speaker 5: Bits i'm SORRY i haven't been on, before but my

1625
01:34:44,439 --> 01:34:48,000
grandchildren have arrived From london And havoc.

1626
01:34:49,319 --> 01:34:53,319
Speaker 2: So, Irene what do you know about with what they

1627
01:34:53,439 --> 01:34:56,720
recently found over there within the last couple of, years

1628
01:34:56,760 --> 01:35:00,079
with the evidence for that one person who killed at

1629
01:35:00,159 --> 01:35:00,760
least one of the.

1630
01:35:00,840 --> 01:35:05,720
Speaker 5: Victims ALL i know is that A Dr jari lu

1631
01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:11,760
Hell LEON i can't really pronounce his name From. Liverpool, yeah,

1632
01:35:12,239 --> 01:35:19,159
yeah apparently done for somebody that had bought a, shawl

1633
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:22,880
a private, person an author or somebody who bought this

1634
01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:25,199
shawl that had been found near the body Of Catherine.

1635
01:35:25,359 --> 01:35:29,680
Doo's do you know anything about, That, JEFF i.

1636
01:35:29,640 --> 01:35:31,399
Speaker 6: Know a lot about. It AND i know that that,

1637
01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:34,800
evidence THAT dna evidence that he tried to introduce to

1638
01:35:34,920 --> 01:35:36,960
the world to sell his book would not have stood

1639
01:35:37,039 --> 01:35:38,600
up in. Court it would have been thrown. Out.

1640
01:35:39,279 --> 01:35:41,880
Speaker 1: Interesting, Wow, yeah THE dna was.

1641
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:46,560
Speaker 6: Faulty they admitted that that it would not have. Compared.

1642
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:47,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1643
01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:53,239
Speaker 4: Yeah so here again the public railroading of the facts

1644
01:35:53,680 --> 01:35:57,840
now makes that solidify itself into concrete evidence in the

1645
01:35:58,000 --> 01:35:59,119
in the general public's.

1646
01:35:59,159 --> 01:36:00,119
Speaker 1: Mind that's.

1647
01:36:00,119 --> 01:36:02,920
Speaker 6: Fascinating and, see and that's what we run up, Against.

1648
01:36:02,920 --> 01:36:05,239
Bruce we run up. AGAINST i stand up AND i

1649
01:36:05,279 --> 01:36:08,039
try to tell people we're going to present evidence in

1650
01:36:08,079 --> 01:36:12,119
a legal fashion as IF i was in A california state.

1651
01:36:12,199 --> 01:36:15,960
Court we're going to let you, decide and the eyes

1652
01:36:16,079 --> 01:36:18,760
roll in the audience is the first response because they've

1653
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:22,199
seen so many authors trying to sell, books and anyone

1654
01:36:22,239 --> 01:36:24,560
that's read my book mark you can help me with.

1655
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:27,640
THIS i have one chapter about him Being jack The.

1656
01:36:27,720 --> 01:36:29,600
Ripper the rest of the book has nothing to do

1657
01:36:29,720 --> 01:36:32,199
With jack The. Ripper it's not HOW i plan on

1658
01:36:32,319 --> 01:36:36,399
Selling bloodstains if it ever, goes you, know. Viral it

1659
01:36:36,439 --> 01:36:40,520
has to do With jack The ripper is the world's.

1660
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:44,760
Mystery it's it's the most infamous.

1661
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:45,079
Speaker 2: Set of murders there.

1662
01:36:45,119 --> 01:36:50,199
Speaker 6: Are AND i knew that when we proved That holmes

1663
01:36:50,319 --> 01:36:53,720
was there and he Killed Catherine, etto's it would explode

1664
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:58,920
The holmes story the way that the WAY i needed

1665
01:36:58,960 --> 01:37:04,239
it to, go because of because of just. Understanding. Listen

1666
01:37:04,319 --> 01:37:07,399
the WAY i like to tell people is now That

1667
01:37:07,439 --> 01:37:09,800
hollywood's fallen in love with his, story and the movie's

1668
01:37:09,800 --> 01:37:11,680
going to be made An american horror, story and THEN

1669
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:14,840
amc wants to do a series on, It you're going

1670
01:37:14,880 --> 01:37:19,479
to have people trying to prove That jack The ripper WAS. Ahh,

1671
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:22,640
holmes not me PROVING. Ahh holmes Was jack The, ripper

1672
01:37:23,479 --> 01:37:26,520
Because jack The ripper was three or four murders In.

1673
01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:31,960
London Ah holmes is a monster In america and it

1674
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:38,680
doesn't even compare the stories two is in the.

1675
01:37:38,720 --> 01:37:41,119
Speaker 2: World, sorry that's that. Question?

1676
01:37:42,239 --> 01:37:45,560
Speaker 5: Sorry is it true he killed about two hundred women In?

1677
01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:50,359
Speaker 6: America Mister larson thinks the number is over two. Hundred

1678
01:37:50,439 --> 01:37:53,760
the author Of The devil in The White, City holmes

1679
01:37:54,039 --> 01:37:57,880
admitted to twenty seven to The Hurst agency before he

1680
01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:00,720
was allegedly, executed then recant two days.

1681
01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:02,399
Speaker 2: BEFORE i think.

1682
01:38:02,199 --> 01:38:04,720
Speaker 6: It was many more than. THAT i think it was, seven,

1683
01:38:04,800 --> 01:38:08,760
eight nine. Hundred there are historians now In chicago who

1684
01:38:08,880 --> 01:38:13,000
believed he owned a concrete and glass factory that at

1685
01:38:13,119 --> 01:38:16,560
night would take out blocks of concrete into The Chicago

1686
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:20,239
river and dump them over the side this huge furnace

1687
01:38:20,359 --> 01:38:23,359
that was thirty forty feet. Long he never sold any

1688
01:38:23,399 --> 01:38:27,840
glass from, it just was a fire. Burning now you

1689
01:38:27,880 --> 01:38:29,720
know Who holmes, Is you know the, Story you know

1690
01:38:29,800 --> 01:38:34,600
the monster that we're talking. About the, Numbers you know.

1691
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:39,479
What he wouldn't have justified the expense making those enterprises

1692
01:38:39,520 --> 01:38:40,319
for twenty seven.

1693
01:38:40,359 --> 01:38:43,359
Speaker 2: People, no most, definitely no.

1694
01:38:43,520 --> 01:38:46,720
Speaker 4: Way and he wasn't baking pottery in those, Ovens there's

1695
01:38:46,760 --> 01:38:48,520
no doubt about. It so what were they there?

1696
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:48,760
Speaker 6: For?

1697
01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:54,039
Speaker 4: Right you know his comprehension in my mind of, workflow

1698
01:38:55,239 --> 01:38:58,600
putting the shoots, in putting the trap doors. Strategically AND

1699
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:01,520
i looked at that floor plan if that's in fact,

1700
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:04,239
accurate WHICH i you can correct me If i'm wrong

1701
01:39:04,640 --> 01:39:07,760
that at least that's probably. Accurate, man this guy did

1702
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:09,520
a lot of. Planning and how he was able to

1703
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:12,119
get those contractors in there to make all these bizarre

1704
01:39:12,199 --> 01:39:15,359
doors with asbestoses steel linings and stuff and not ask

1705
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:17,800
a lot of questions or talk at the bar on

1706
01:39:17,880 --> 01:39:20,479
their lunch breaks is beyond. ME i don't know how

1707
01:39:20,479 --> 01:39:23,239
he kept that, quiet BECAUSE i don't care how much

1708
01:39:23,319 --> 01:39:27,920
you separate the various, contractors whether they were the, stonemasons

1709
01:39:27,920 --> 01:39:30,840
the brick, layers the. Carpenters they had you guys in

1710
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:34,119
there putting rivets into steel, walls and you, KNOW i

1711
01:39:34,159 --> 01:39:36,560
don't know how he pulled that. Off but the point is,

1712
01:39:36,560 --> 01:39:39,520
This the whole workflow thing was pretty well thought. Out

1713
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:43,319
IF i understood you know WHAT i could gather from the, charts.

1714
01:39:44,399 --> 01:39:48,079
Speaker 6: Right and those, charts like LIKE i, said were drawn

1715
01:39:48,439 --> 01:39:53,760
by a journalist from comments that he was given by the,

1716
01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:58,960
investigators the police investigators who reportedly had gone down into the.

1717
01:39:59,000 --> 01:40:03,039
Basement so you've worked in journalism along, Time, bruce you

1718
01:40:03,079 --> 01:40:04,920
tell me what that's. WORTH i don't know.

1719
01:40:07,479 --> 01:40:12,680
Speaker 2: The When holmes was finally, caught what was his? Undoing

1720
01:40:12,720 --> 01:40:16,680
what finally led, people or led the police to realize

1721
01:40:16,760 --> 01:40:20,319
that they had a monster on their hands and he was.

1722
01:40:20,359 --> 01:40:25,520
Speaker 6: Responsible you, Know harpers wrote about That mark and it

1723
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:28,439
was one of the greatest man hunts In american, history

1724
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:32,720
them chasing him across The Middle america and then up Into.

1725
01:40:32,800 --> 01:40:38,520
CANADA i Think holmes finally realized he was done for

1726
01:40:39,439 --> 01:40:43,359
that his, face he was a celebrity In, america that

1727
01:40:43,800 --> 01:40:48,720
he was going to be unable to continue anything that

1728
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:52,920
he wanted to. Perform he knew he needed to have a.

1729
01:40:52,960 --> 01:40:56,479
PLAN i think he wanted to be. CAUGHT i think

1730
01:40:56,479 --> 01:40:58,960
he wanted to be, tried AND i think he planned it,

1731
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:03,159
out As i've described in the, book how the prison

1732
01:41:03,199 --> 01:41:05,239
guard would be hung in his place and he could

1733
01:41:05,239 --> 01:41:05,680
go scott.

1734
01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:11,760
Speaker 2: Free now he used he was practicing, hypnosis as you

1735
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:16,239
indicated in the, book using it to, slowly over time

1736
01:41:16,359 --> 01:41:18,760
work on the guard and hypnotize.

1737
01:41:18,279 --> 01:41:23,600
Speaker 6: Him many authors before, me you, know stated About holmes'

1738
01:41:23,680 --> 01:41:25,319
ability to. Cut he was a master.

1739
01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:29,640
Speaker 4: Hypnotist you, know this is the story that just keeps

1740
01:41:29,680 --> 01:41:33,079
on given you. Couldn't you'd have to be pretty creative

1741
01:41:33,079 --> 01:41:36,479
to write this many elements into a. Story but we

1742
01:41:36,600 --> 01:41:39,720
got to go through. This ali finegel his way out

1743
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:42,439
and beat the. Hangman this this is just the capper

1744
01:41:42,479 --> 01:41:45,960
of all. CAPPERS i, mean so continue on because you,

1745
01:41:45,960 --> 01:41:48,760
KNOW i hope the listeners listen carefully to what happened

1746
01:41:48,800 --> 01:41:51,199
at the end of the story, here, Please but the.

1747
01:41:51,159 --> 01:41:53,840
Speaker 6: Best part about it Is. Bruce sorry to jump on,

1748
01:41:53,880 --> 01:41:58,159
you but The New York times after his alleged, execution

1749
01:41:58,479 --> 01:42:03,239
they started carrying The holmes. Curse, Okay It's New York

1750
01:42:03,279 --> 01:42:08,119
times front, page over and over everyone that irritated him

1751
01:42:08,159 --> 01:42:12,319
in his, arrest his prison, time his, trial his alleged.

1752
01:42:12,359 --> 01:42:17,319
Execution THEY i either died or suffered terrible. Misfortune Mister Adam,

1753
01:42:17,359 --> 01:42:20,279
seltzer the historian From chicago did the research for us on.

1754
01:42:20,319 --> 01:42:23,000
It at least forty people suffered that.

1755
01:42:23,159 --> 01:42:25,479
Speaker 2: Fate forty.

1756
01:42:25,520 --> 01:42:28,880
Speaker 1: People after reminding me Of Bill, clinton, Sorry i'm not.

1757
01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:31,920
Kidding it does kind of. Weird everybody you know read

1758
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:32,680
the story.

1759
01:42:32,560 --> 01:42:36,000
Speaker 6: People and you know WHAT i, Decided, No i'm not

1760
01:42:36,039 --> 01:42:38,039
going to believe in a. Curse i'm going to take

1761
01:42:38,079 --> 01:42:39,840
it the other. Way let's take a look at the

1762
01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:45,439
facts involved in his execution and. Burial. Well as the

1763
01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:50,079
body came off the Scaffold okay, one he had paid

1764
01:42:50,560 --> 01:42:55,239
the judge and prison superintendent for no autopsy and violation

1765
01:42:55,600 --> 01:42:59,800
Of pennsylvania. Law okay, two he was hung with a

1766
01:43:00,000 --> 01:43:04,359
good another violation Of PENNSYLVANIA. Loa the body came, down

1767
01:43:05,119 --> 01:43:08,520
it was lowered into a coffin and filled with. Concrete

1768
01:43:11,560 --> 01:43:17,359
pinkerton guards then took possession of the body and coffin another.

1769
01:43:17,439 --> 01:43:22,359
Speaker 2: Violation, yeah and we know how trustworthy. Guards, YEAH i

1770
01:43:22,439 --> 01:43:24,720
was going to, say we know how trustworthy of The pinkertons.

1771
01:43:24,720 --> 01:43:28,560
Speaker 6: Were he hired. Them they took him out to the

1772
01:43:28,600 --> 01:43:31,720
Cemetery Holy cross out in outside Of. PHILADELPHIA i was

1773
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:36,039
there about four months. Ago they lowered him into a

1774
01:43:36,079 --> 01:43:38,600
hole and then ten feet of concrete was poured on,

1775
01:43:38,680 --> 01:43:41,800
top and then he had The pinkerton guard stand guard

1776
01:43:41,960 --> 01:43:45,119
for three nights until it hardened that no one could

1777
01:43:45,159 --> 01:43:50,960
interrupt the. Body then this Alleged holmes curse started taking.

1778
01:43:51,000 --> 01:43:59,119
Speaker 2: Place that is just first of, all did they ever

1779
01:43:59,159 --> 01:44:03,479
give any export nation on why they went to such

1780
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:09,199
extreme links for not only you know the way doing illegal,

1781
01:44:09,359 --> 01:44:14,760
executions but for the disposal of the. Body and where

1782
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:17,079
Was holmes really during all of?

1783
01:44:17,119 --> 01:44:19,880
Speaker 1: This, WELL i you, KNOW i tried.

1784
01:44:19,680 --> 01:44:22,079
Speaker 6: To explain in the book it's theory and, conjecture because

1785
01:44:22,079 --> 01:44:24,199
obviously unless you were, there it's going to be hard

1786
01:44:24,199 --> 01:44:28,039
to put it all. Together AND i THINK i did

1787
01:44:28,039 --> 01:44:32,239
a good job. Explaining it's it's a movie in itself

1788
01:44:32,239 --> 01:44:35,920
to tell you the. Truth AND i think it's. Fascinating that's,

1789
01:44:35,960 --> 01:44:38,239
why which shows like yours that are going to help.

1790
01:44:38,279 --> 01:44:40,560
Me we're going to exhum that. Grave we're going to

1791
01:44:40,640 --> 01:44:42,840
take that concrete, up we're going to crack it, open

1792
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:45,239
and we're going to do A dna comparison on those

1793
01:44:45,319 --> 01:44:50,640
remains in my flesh.

1794
01:44:48,439 --> 01:44:50,119
Speaker 2: And put it the rest once and for all.

1795
01:44:50,560 --> 01:44:52,880
Speaker 6: Now And i'll come back on your show and SAY

1796
01:44:52,920 --> 01:44:56,039
i was a complete idiot, there, right it Was. Holmes he's.

1797
01:44:56,079 --> 01:44:59,000
Speaker 4: Dead, well, then, NO i don't think it means you're

1798
01:44:59,000 --> 01:45:01,800
a complete. Idiot think that there was a compelling reason

1799
01:45:02,159 --> 01:45:07,520
and a logical assumption that you're you're you're spot. ON

1800
01:45:08,000 --> 01:45:11,560
i mean clearly that's an anomaly the way that took. Place,

1801
01:45:12,039 --> 01:45:14,439
Uh and you, know the only two other times IN

1802
01:45:15,239 --> 01:45:18,560
us history of prominent, people AND i don't say, that you,

1803
01:45:18,600 --> 01:45:22,960
know you, know connect these three, people but other areas

1804
01:45:22,960 --> 01:45:28,760
where autopsies were startlingly not performed was the death Of

1805
01:45:28,800 --> 01:45:34,119
George patten After World War two and of course the

1806
01:45:34,239 --> 01:45:38,119
violation Of texas law Where John kennedy's body was not

1807
01:45:38,159 --> 01:45:43,000
given an autopsy and sent back To. Bethesda so you,

1808
01:45:43,039 --> 01:45:45,560
know there's there's a reason that the law has not.

1809
01:45:45,720 --> 01:45:49,399
FOLLOWED i, mean you could argue some specific cases in those,

1810
01:45:49,399 --> 01:45:52,520
two but this was pretty bizarre to Have pinkerton's and

1811
01:45:52,560 --> 01:45:54,720
fill in the coffin with cement and that kind OF

1812
01:45:55,640 --> 01:45:57,520
i think that it wouldn't be too hard to draw

1813
01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:00,520
the conclusion there was something amiss here and people were

1814
01:46:00,520 --> 01:46:01,159
trying to cover it.

1815
01:46:01,239 --> 01:46:05,640
Speaker 6: Up, so Especially, mark when you think About holmes was

1816
01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:10,199
writing checks before he was allegedly executed to have these things.

1817
01:46:10,239 --> 01:46:14,399
Happen kennedy wasn't writing checks Before holmes was writing checks

1818
01:46:14,399 --> 01:46:19,760
to see that these things happened this way.

1819
01:46:18,920 --> 01:46:22,399
Speaker 2: The, well so you're saying there were checks going out

1820
01:46:22,439 --> 01:46:26,159
From holmes after his, Death no before before his. Death

1821
01:46:26,239 --> 01:46:27,439
all these checks went out well.

1822
01:46:27,439 --> 01:46:30,079
Speaker 1: Premeditated so let me ask.

1823
01:46:30,159 --> 01:46:32,680
Speaker 2: This, then this is going to be the obvious dumb,

1824
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:38,840
question but the what what evidence other than The holmes?

1825
01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:42,720
Curse with a lot of these witnesses starting to befall

1826
01:46:43,399 --> 01:46:47,239
accidents or ill fortune and dropping dead or whatever happened to,

1827
01:46:47,319 --> 01:46:51,680
them what other evidence do you have that suggests that

1828
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:52,760
he survived his own.

1829
01:46:52,800 --> 01:46:58,920
Speaker 6: HANGING i know where he's actually, buried on The Sacramento

1830
01:46:59,000 --> 01:47:02,760
river In, california And i'm reluctant to bring that up because,

1831
01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:06,600
then you, Know i'm immediately classified as the crazy on

1832
01:47:06,640 --> 01:47:11,039
the radio. Show and that's Why i've told people there's

1833
01:47:11,079 --> 01:47:14,399
no sense in us even doing anything about that until

1834
01:47:14,439 --> 01:47:16,560
we prove that it's not him in the concrete.

1835
01:47:16,600 --> 01:47:16,880
Speaker 1: First.

1836
01:47:18,279 --> 01:47:20,560
Speaker 6: Prove if we prove that it's not him in the concrete,

1837
01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:24,680
first then my knowledge about where he really is becomes

1838
01:47:25,039 --> 01:47:29,640
viable because it just doesn't work until we prove the.

1839
01:47:29,720 --> 01:47:33,840
Exhumation so that that Part's that's one WHEN i told,

1840
01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:35,680
you you know HOW i selected the book based on

1841
01:47:35,720 --> 01:47:39,199
a true. Story i'm going to prove each, point you,

1842
01:47:39,199 --> 01:47:41,399
know AS i have the money and the, time and

1843
01:47:41,439 --> 01:47:44,279
then you, know people can decide whether it should have

1844
01:47:44,279 --> 01:47:47,000
been called based on a true story or nonfiction or.

1845
01:47:47,039 --> 01:47:48,239
Not they can decide on their.

1846
01:47:48,239 --> 01:47:50,520
Speaker 4: Own let me Ask let me ask you a quick

1847
01:47:50,560 --> 01:47:52,239
question you may or may not know how to, answer

1848
01:47:52,319 --> 01:47:55,079
but my background of having been a, Paramedic i'm going

1849
01:47:55,119 --> 01:47:57,399
to ask you. This, so if you take the limestone

1850
01:47:57,399 --> 01:48:00,359
component of concrete and you put it in cap a

1851
01:48:00,399 --> 01:48:04,760
body with pretty much precluding any, oxygen have you talked

1852
01:48:04,760 --> 01:48:09,000
to any pathologists to kind of figure out in any

1853
01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:12,279
way to predict the state of the body that was

1854
01:48:12,319 --> 01:48:15,880
immediately put into concrete and the leeching of the limestone

1855
01:48:15,920 --> 01:48:17,720
out of the concrete into the, body because you, know

1856
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:22,640
quick lime is obviously limestone which was used in and

1857
01:48:22,680 --> 01:48:25,680
around the pathological. Process do you have any idea how

1858
01:48:25,680 --> 01:48:29,920
that's going to affect THE dna or sampling or where

1859
01:48:29,920 --> 01:48:32,039
have you investigated that and what have you come up?

1860
01:48:32,039 --> 01:48:34,159
Speaker 6: With we've got ten different.

1861
01:48:34,159 --> 01:48:37,680
Speaker 4: Opinions oh, good all, Right SO i don't feel quite

1862
01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:39,279
as ignorant AS i did WHEN i started the.

1863
01:48:39,359 --> 01:48:41,359
Speaker 1: QUESTION i still, do but not for that.

1864
01:48:41,439 --> 01:48:48,079
Speaker 2: Reason we did they lower the body in a, coffin

1865
01:48:48,159 --> 01:48:50,399
first in a wood, coffin then import with concrete or

1866
01:48:50,439 --> 01:48:53,000
did they just pour concrete directly over the body.

1867
01:48:53,279 --> 01:48:56,079
Speaker 6: Twice once in the, coffin then over the top of the.

1868
01:48:56,079 --> 01:49:01,640
Coffin good, lord good good luck chiseling. Out oh, yeah

1869
01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:03,760
this is a major. Undertaking that's Why i'm glad you

1870
01:49:03,760 --> 01:49:06,199
know that we, have you, know the scientists FROM dc

1871
01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:07,039
willing to.

1872
01:49:07,079 --> 01:49:15,680
Speaker 2: Help so what with other other than the? Other all

1873
01:49:15,760 --> 01:49:21,039
this conjecture on What holmes. Is If holmes lived for

1874
01:49:21,119 --> 01:49:24,279
a lot, longer when did he? Die?

1875
01:49:25,520 --> 01:49:28,119
Speaker 6: OH i think he lived almost to one hundred years.

1876
01:49:28,159 --> 01:49:32,800
Old once, again the stories THAT i have to tell

1877
01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:36,680
About holmes's exploits, AFTER i think are eerier and creepier

1878
01:49:36,720 --> 01:49:40,239
than the ones. Before but UNTIL i prove it's not

1879
01:49:40,359 --> 01:49:43,680
him in that, grave which you, know every author before me.

1880
01:49:43,720 --> 01:49:44,760
Speaker 2: Has said that it is.

1881
01:49:44,800 --> 01:49:47,960
Speaker 6: Absolute the state Of pennsylvania says it, is the federal

1882
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:48,800
government says it.

1883
01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:50,000
Speaker 2: Is it.

1884
01:49:50,039 --> 01:49:53,279
Speaker 6: Doesn't it doesn't do me much good to go down that.

1885
01:49:53,439 --> 01:49:56,760
LINE i can only tell you, this we're talking about

1886
01:49:56,840 --> 01:50:02,239
his sum of history's most. Horrible, well you guys brought

1887
01:50:02,319 --> 01:50:05,199
Up Manglely holmes New, mangly And i'm going to Be

1888
01:50:05,279 --> 01:50:07,359
i'm going to prove that once we showed that it

1889
01:50:07,439 --> 01:50:08,560
wasn't him in that concrete.

1890
01:50:08,560 --> 01:50:10,279
Speaker 1: Too, well you, know.

1891
01:50:11,119 --> 01:50:12,960
Speaker 2: Well they were like drink, drinking buddy.

1892
01:50:13,079 --> 01:50:15,279
Speaker 1: Swapping best teaser in the, World i'll tell you right.

1893
01:50:15,319 --> 01:50:18,560
NOW i, know let's hope we're going to help you

1894
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:18,800
get this.

1895
01:50:19,199 --> 01:50:24,399
Speaker 2: Together they were, drinking buddy, swapping swapping shop talk and.

1896
01:50:24,439 --> 01:50:27,119
Speaker 6: You know what a you KNOW i and for me

1897
01:50:27,199 --> 01:50:29,800
to say that now all the eyes are rolling of your.

1898
01:50:29,800 --> 01:50:32,760
LISTENERS i know that once we get that concrete up

1899
01:50:32,800 --> 01:50:35,600
and prove it's not, him, okay then then we go

1900
01:50:36,119 --> 01:50:36,479
bring it.

1901
01:50:36,520 --> 01:50:39,279
Speaker 1: On let the facts, state you, know stand on their own.

1902
01:50:39,319 --> 01:50:40,720
Merit that's. GREAT i think.

1903
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:45,119
Speaker 4: That's completely honest and. Good let's keep following the. Pathway

1904
01:50:45,399 --> 01:50:49,159
this is, compelling it's. FASCINATING i, MEAN i you couldn't

1905
01:50:49,239 --> 01:50:51,359
jam more elements into a story if you tried.

1906
01:50:51,399 --> 01:50:53,840
Speaker 2: To, well let me ask what you know WE i

1907
01:50:53,880 --> 01:50:55,640
know You you've got to go here in about five

1908
01:50:55,720 --> 01:50:59,560
or six. Minutes so let me squeeze the one of the.

1909
01:50:59,600 --> 01:51:02,880
Strings just aspects of the story in. Here the fact

1910
01:51:02,960 --> 01:51:07,720
that a lot of the murders he committed seemed to

1911
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:13,319
be related to his own twisted version of scientific research

1912
01:51:14,079 --> 01:51:21,479
dealing with women's sexual, organs the the hormones involved and

1913
01:51:21,600 --> 01:51:26,479
his obsession with. Immortality, yes could you explain that real.

1914
01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:30,800
Speaker 6: QUICK i don't know anything about that, science and that

1915
01:51:30,840 --> 01:51:33,039
would be me talking off the top of my. Head

1916
01:51:33,159 --> 01:51:36,079
ALL i know is from some of his. Materials that's

1917
01:51:36,119 --> 01:51:38,760
what he was fascinated. With that's what he was going

1918
01:51:38,800 --> 01:51:41,600
To london to to talk to as As irene will

1919
01:51:41,640 --> 01:51:43,800
jump in here and help. Us that was where that

1920
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:47,439
was the scientific center of the earth at that. Time

1921
01:51:47,760 --> 01:51:51,479
that's where the great professors and teachers were as far

1922
01:51:51,520 --> 01:51:51,920
as you.

1923
01:51:51,880 --> 01:51:53,520
Speaker 5: Know the medical.

1924
01:51:53,600 --> 01:52:00,640
Speaker 2: Science where was the? Elephants, yes, well.

1925
01:52:00,479 --> 01:52:03,119
Speaker 4: And if you AND i did a very long series

1926
01:52:03,119 --> 01:52:05,760
of medical, documentaries and IF i could interject here back

1927
01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:11,279
around the eighteen seventies and forward in medical colleges is

1928
01:52:11,319 --> 01:52:16,119
In Boston university And Boston college and the medical, schools

1929
01:52:16,199 --> 01:52:21,119
they would have operating theaters which had if you've seen

1930
01:52:21,159 --> 01:52:24,680
pictures of, them which were basically a very steep sided

1931
01:52:25,119 --> 01:52:28,840
observation rooms where they would have before, anesthesia they would

1932
01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:32,439
have live operations done with people with no anesthesia so

1933
01:52:32,479 --> 01:52:34,920
the medical students could observe the. Operations it.

1934
01:52:35,039 --> 01:52:36,319
Speaker 1: Was it was pretty.

1935
01:52:36,359 --> 01:52:39,439
Speaker 4: Freaky it kind of looked, like you, know the Institutionalized

1936
01:52:39,439 --> 01:52:44,920
frankenstein's lap so clearly in my work in doing medical

1937
01:52:45,079 --> 01:52:49,600
documentaries about Early american and early medical, history this was

1938
01:52:49,680 --> 01:52:52,720
not uncommon, to you, know to open somebody up while

1939
01:52:52,720 --> 01:52:56,239
they were still, conscious because before, anesthesia AS i, said

1940
01:52:56,239 --> 01:52:58,600
there was no other way to do. It so he

1941
01:52:58,760 --> 01:53:02,039
was quite with in the mainstream of what happened in

1942
01:53:02,159 --> 01:53:06,039
exploration and medicine and internal organs and surgery and so

1943
01:53:06,119 --> 01:53:10,640
forth when those disciplines were being evolved in that period

1944
01:53:10,720 --> 01:53:14,840
after The Civil. War so that's not inconsistent with the

1945
01:53:14,880 --> 01:53:16,479
history of the. Time AND i know that from having

1946
01:53:16,520 --> 01:53:17,239
to produced those.

1947
01:53:17,279 --> 01:53:21,199
Speaker 2: Documentaries, Well jeff also with you know you hinted at

1948
01:53:21,319 --> 01:53:25,119
in the, book because of this obsession with immortality and

1949
01:53:25,199 --> 01:53:27,720
even some of the, killing at least the one killing

1950
01:53:27,720 --> 01:53:31,520
attributed To jack the ripper of, course with her sexual

1951
01:53:31,640 --> 01:53:35,039
organs removed, her you, know and the gruesomeness of the,

1952
01:53:35,119 --> 01:53:38,920
kill but that's what was taken from the. Body you

1953
01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:42,000
also just mentioned that it's possible That holmes lived to

1954
01:53:42,039 --> 01:53:46,399
almost be one. Hundred do You WHAT i found fascinated

1955
01:53:46,439 --> 01:53:48,680
with the story is you allude to the fact that

1956
01:53:48,800 --> 01:53:52,600
maybe some of his research could have helped him live that,

1957
01:53:52,720 --> 01:53:56,880
long which again makes the story really really, bizarre BUT

1958
01:53:56,920 --> 01:53:58,319
i have to say it is a fascinating.

1959
01:53:58,359 --> 01:54:02,319
Speaker 6: READ i don't know if he was that, Advanced, MARK

1960
01:54:02,399 --> 01:54:04,920
i don't know if he, had you, know the knowledge

1961
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:09,600
the computer systems we have now that would make that

1962
01:54:09,680 --> 01:54:12,600
type of scientific, research that would be necessary for that

1963
01:54:12,640 --> 01:54:15,840
type of scientific. RESEARCH i doubt he had that. Background

1964
01:54:17,079 --> 01:54:19,119
but he was on the forefront of. IT i know,

1965
01:54:19,239 --> 01:54:22,079
That and and he was dealing with people that, were you,

1966
01:54:22,119 --> 01:54:25,600
know experts about. IT i don't, think you, know living

1967
01:54:25,640 --> 01:54:29,479
to ninety seven meant he solved you, know longevity or.

1968
01:54:29,479 --> 01:54:31,640
IMMORTALITY i just you, know he.

1969
01:54:31,720 --> 01:54:32,600
Speaker 2: Was he was a.

1970
01:54:32,680 --> 01:54:36,359
Speaker 6: Doctor he knew healthy, living those, things so for, him

1971
01:54:36,439 --> 01:54:40,239
not for the people around. Him but SO i DON'T

1972
01:54:40,239 --> 01:54:42,279
i don't necessarily know if there's a connection to.

1973
01:54:42,319 --> 01:54:46,840
Speaker 2: That, okay fair, enough you, Know, jeff this has really

1974
01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:50,760
been fascinating discussion so far. Tonight and the, fact you,

1975
01:54:50,760 --> 01:54:53,560
know we talked earlier about they are doing that the

1976
01:54:53,640 --> 01:54:57,560
new movie With Martin Scorsese Leonardo, DiCaprio devil in The White,

1977
01:54:57,600 --> 01:55:02,000
city which will have homes being featured predominantly in, It

1978
01:55:03,000 --> 01:55:05,920
and we also mentioned briefly that the new season Of

1979
01:55:06,239 --> 01:55:10,199
American Horror STORY uh with which is going to be

1980
01:55:10,239 --> 01:55:15,319
premiering In, october is heavily based on The Murder castle

1981
01:55:15,600 --> 01:55:18,079
and What holmes was. Doing they're they're taking a lot

1982
01:55:18,119 --> 01:55:20,680
of elements from that and putting that into this. Season

1983
01:55:21,079 --> 01:55:23,039
so that's going to be really interesting to see what

1984
01:55:23,079 --> 01:55:26,399
they play with what they've taken from the real home

1985
01:55:26,520 --> 01:55:29,439
story and tried to use that in their fictional. SETTING

1986
01:55:30,560 --> 01:55:32,439
i think you mentioned was there somebody else they're trying

1987
01:55:32,439 --> 01:55:33,960
to make a television show about this as?

1988
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:37,199
Speaker 6: Well oh, yeah there's there's a MC. Hbo they're all

1989
01:55:37,199 --> 01:55:37,800
looking into.

1990
01:55:37,840 --> 01:55:38,000
Speaker 2: It.

1991
01:55:38,399 --> 01:55:41,840
Speaker 6: Netflix you, know there's a series they What i'd love

1992
01:55:41,880 --> 01:55:44,239
for them to, make like A hannibal series or a

1993
01:55:45,359 --> 01:55:48,199
what was the series with the killer that only killed bad?

1994
01:55:48,279 --> 01:55:52,439
Speaker 2: People oh, yeah, yeah yeah that Was. Dexter yeah With.

1995
01:55:52,560 --> 01:55:53,720
DEXTER i love that.

1996
01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:57,079
Speaker 6: Show and you, know So i'm, hoping you, know two

1997
01:55:57,119 --> 01:55:59,399
hours to do this story is not enough, time So.

1998
01:55:59,319 --> 01:56:03,479
Speaker 4: I'll none before we run out of. Time speaking of,

1999
01:56:03,560 --> 01:56:06,800
time tell us how tell the listeners how they can

2000
01:56:06,800 --> 01:56:08,560
get in touch with, you how they can purchase your,

2001
01:56:08,600 --> 01:56:11,359
books what's coming, forward how they can keep in touch with.

2002
01:56:11,399 --> 01:56:13,479
You and then of course we want to invite you

2003
01:56:13,560 --> 01:56:15,880
back for another couple hours to speak to.

2004
01:56:15,960 --> 01:56:17,319
Speaker 1: Us, well thank you very.

2005
01:56:17,359 --> 01:56:20,000
Speaker 6: Much, yeah you, Know i'm On. Facebook anyone on your

2006
01:56:20,199 --> 01:56:22,359
your listeners are welcome to join my, page and then

2007
01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:28,039
you can go to. Www dot bloodstainsthebook dot, com one

2008
01:56:28,079 --> 01:56:31,359
word Or. Amazon amazon sells all my, ebooks AND i

2009
01:56:31,399 --> 01:56:33,159
got to tell, You amazon treats me like a. King

2010
01:56:33,239 --> 01:56:36,319
the stories About amazon being a terrible place that i've

2011
01:56:36,720 --> 01:56:40,680
my entire relationship with them has been. Beautiful SO i

2012
01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:43,560
don't know where those stories are coming. From and, UH

2013
01:56:44,079 --> 01:56:46,600
i can only tell you this if you want to

2014
01:56:46,640 --> 01:56:51,119
read my Story, Bloodstains my story is about a reader

2015
01:56:51,439 --> 01:56:55,039
stepping into my. Shoes, okay at that DINNER i try

2016
01:56:55,079 --> 01:56:57,439
to put my readers at that dinner party where my

2017
01:56:57,520 --> 01:57:00,680
grandfather revealed the. Secret and THEN i asked my, readers

2018
01:57:01,159 --> 01:57:03,399
what would you have? Done how would your life have

2019
01:57:03,520 --> 01:57:07,159
changed with this horrible? Secret, now first, off every time

2020
01:57:07,159 --> 01:57:09,159
you woke, up every time you went to, bed every

2021
01:57:09,199 --> 01:57:12,199
time you took a cup of, coffee that's who you thought.

2022
01:57:12,239 --> 01:57:15,760
About and most of the people that read the book

2023
01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:18,000
are enjoying the, experience and a lot of them tell

2024
01:57:18,039 --> 01:57:19,359
me that it changes their.

2025
01:57:19,399 --> 01:57:22,880
Speaker 2: Life, Well, jeff thank you so. Much for coming on

2026
01:57:22,920 --> 01:57:24,600
the show, tonight AND i know you got to, run

2027
01:57:24,680 --> 01:57:26,960
so we'll let you go, here but thank you. Again

2028
01:57:27,359 --> 01:57:29,239
and you know, what, Well bruce AND i will be

2029
01:57:29,279 --> 01:57:31,439
in touch with you tomorrow about some of those other,

2030
01:57:31,520 --> 01:57:33,359
things so we'll definitely be talking.

2031
01:57:33,399 --> 01:57:35,600
Speaker 6: Further, well thank, You and you know, what we could

2032
01:57:35,600 --> 01:57:38,079
spend two hours talking about The jack The ripper, evidence

2033
01:57:38,119 --> 01:57:44,600
because you KNOW i. Am you'd love to get the

2034
01:57:44,640 --> 01:57:46,840
world to give me a fair shot to stand up

2035
01:57:46,880 --> 01:57:49,279
in front of a room full of lawyers and debate that.

2036
01:57:49,399 --> 01:57:52,840
Evidence because if they, do if they let, me the mystery's.

2037
01:57:52,880 --> 01:57:56,279
Over we know who Killed Catherine etto's and that was

2038
01:57:56,359 --> 01:57:58,640
the woman who died around the Dear boss.

2039
01:57:58,720 --> 01:58:02,520
Speaker 2: Letter, okay, Well jeff, again thank you very much for coming.

2040
01:58:02,600 --> 01:58:05,600
On we will definitely have you back and you have

2041
01:58:05,680 --> 01:58:07,399
a great evening, now Thanks, ja.

2042
01:58:07,359 --> 01:58:11,479
Speaker 1: Thank you for all the. Best bye bye.

2043
01:58:11,560 --> 01:58:13,239
Speaker 6: Bye well that was.

2044
01:58:13,720 --> 01:58:15,439
Speaker 2: Great now we're coming up to the end of our

2045
01:58:15,479 --> 01:58:17,520
show here in about a, minute SO i just want

2046
01:58:17,560 --> 01:58:21,720
to fall into, Again Thank. Jeff wonderful. Guests that was

2047
01:58:21,760 --> 01:58:24,359
a great show. Tonight what was your thoughts on, That?

2048
01:58:24,399 --> 01:58:30,199
Speaker 4: Bruce, unbelievable you, know once again every, week. UNBELIEVABLE i

2049
01:58:30,199 --> 01:58:32,399
wouldn't have missed this for all the money in the.

2050
01:58:32,399 --> 01:58:35,359
World and we appreciate our listeners and we want our

2051
01:58:35,399 --> 01:58:38,479
listeners to follow, up give us some. Feedback you, know

2052
01:58:38,640 --> 01:58:41,720
next week we'll do it. Again and, uh it's just.

2053
01:58:42,119 --> 01:58:45,159
Fascinating AND i hope that the listener's got half of

2054
01:58:45,199 --> 01:58:46,119
it out of it THAT i.

2055
01:58:46,199 --> 01:58:47,039
Speaker 1: DID i, mean you.

2056
01:58:47,079 --> 01:58:52,640
Speaker 4: Can't you couldn't pack more different venues and different tangents

2057
01:58:52,640 --> 01:58:53,880
into a story if you tried.

2058
01:58:53,880 --> 01:58:54,399
Speaker 1: To just.

2059
01:58:54,479 --> 01:58:56,920
Speaker 4: Amazing and you know, what the fact he's an attorney

2060
01:58:57,479 --> 01:58:59,520
just as the. Credibility so we're going to stay with

2061
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:02,039
him and have him back on again and follow. Up

2062
01:59:02,399 --> 01:59:05,279
and thank You irene for being. On thanks, everybody have

2063
01:59:05,319 --> 01:59:07,520
a good weekend and be. Safe we'll see you next.

2064
01:59:07,560 --> 01:59:11,000
Speaker 2: Week thank, hey good, night and thanks everybody for listening

2065
01:59:11,039 --> 01:59:14,039
To Unknown Origins. Radio tune in Next thursday night at

2066
01:59:14,039 --> 01:59:17,640
eight Pm Eastern Standard time here on The Dark Matter Digital.

2067
01:59:17,760 --> 01:59:20,000
Network have a good. One we'll text you next.

2068
01:59:20,000 --> 01:59:23,520
Speaker 1: Week Thanks, Keith thank You. Keith