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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the nonprofits.

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<v Speaker 2>Our fourth and final segment this week is about our

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<v Speaker 2>old friend evolution. Kelly, you're a resident scientist. Why don't

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<v Speaker 2>you give us the lowdown here?

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<v Speaker 3>Sure, I'd love to Scott scientists in Sweden they've been

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<v Speaker 3>discovering some really interesting data as part of a decade

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<v Speaker 3>long study on snails. Yes, snails, those often overlooked animals

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<v Speaker 3>populating our shorelines, lakes and ponds across the world. In

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<v Speaker 3>a long term study, they've been able to observe a

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<v Speaker 3>species of snail common to the coast of Sweden actually

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<v Speaker 3>change phenotypes within a few generations and even follow predicted paths, prediction,

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<v Speaker 3>of course, being a very important part of the scientific method.

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<v Speaker 3>While this might seem like a victory for Lamarcki and

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<v Speaker 3>ideology with them just changing in a couple generations, I

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<v Speaker 3>want to make sure our viewers understand the science behind

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<v Speaker 3>this and things like horizontal gene transfers, a relatively new

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<v Speaker 3>idea among genetic biologists, while not downplaying how important a

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<v Speaker 3>discovery is in the meantime. Now, this isn't an amazingly

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<v Speaker 3>new discovery. We had discovered things like this before, but

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<v Speaker 3>it does fortify our ideas about how genetic changes can

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<v Speaker 3>occur without sexual activity and gives us way more understanding

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<v Speaker 3>into the science of genetics. This story is from Popular

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<v Speaker 3>Mechanics and was written by Daniel Orf on October eleventh,

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, excellent, Kelly, thank you very much. Now you

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned Lamark, and he's known for promoting the now pass

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<v Speaker 2>a idea of inheritance of acquired characteristics. Yes, how a

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<v Speaker 2>parent can develop some characteristic and then that would get

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<v Speaker 2>passed on to the children after that.

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<v Speaker 3>So I like to use the example of the fi.

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<v Speaker 3>If the dad lifts weights a lot and becomes real strong,

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<v Speaker 3>his children will be stronger.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So how's Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection?

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<v Speaker 1>How's that different from Lamarck?

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<v Speaker 2>And why does this information support Darwin's specifically and not Lamark?

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<v Speaker 3>First off, I want to make I want to make

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<v Speaker 3>sure it was Russell who came up with natural selection.

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<v Speaker 3>It was dar when you came up with evolution off

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<v Speaker 3>of Russell's natural selection. So I just want to make

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<v Speaker 3>that clear before we go any farther, because Russell is

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<v Speaker 3>he's like the black sheep of the evolutionists and nobody

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<v Speaker 3>remembers who he was. But it differs in that natural

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<v Speaker 3>selection doesn't happen all in one generation. It's something that

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<v Speaker 3>takes occurrence over quite amount of time, and it's done

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<v Speaker 3>because the organism is trying to adapt better to its environment,

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<v Speaker 3>which in Lamark the organ that you could actually create

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<v Speaker 3>these things that you would pass out to your children,

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<v Speaker 3>which of course we know is not true anymore. So

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<v Speaker 3>I hope that kind of cleared up the idea between

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<v Speaker 3>natural selection and Lamarcky and ideology. Now people are still

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<v Speaker 3>keeping Lamarcki and ideology alive, and it's had its ups

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<v Speaker 3>and downs, and the Soviet Union it got real popular

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<v Speaker 3>under trophrom Lyshenko and he actually became Minister of Agriculture

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<v Speaker 3>in the Soviet Union under Stalin, mostly because he was

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<v Speaker 3>a yes man, but he was using Lamarckian ideas and

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<v Speaker 3>it led to a lot of problems with the agricultural

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<v Speaker 3>programs there.

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<v Speaker 2>So how do the specific findings of these scientists support

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<v Speaker 2>Darwin over Lamark? I mean, because you know, we're assuming

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<v Speaker 2>that you know, there's massive amounts of scientific evidence supporting

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<v Speaker 2>evolution in general, another mass of of inform of scientific

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<v Speaker 2>research specifically supporting Uh, the idea of evolution by natural selection?

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<v Speaker 2>What does this contribute to that? I was going to

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<v Speaker 2>say conflict, but it's not really. I mean, there's there's

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<v Speaker 2>definitely strong scientific consensus in one direction, but as you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 2>there's still people kind of pushing Lamarck's thoughts here. So

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<v Speaker 2>what's what's stopping the Lamarckians from jumping on this as saying, see, see,

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<v Speaker 2>we told you the whole time.

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<v Speaker 1>I would.

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<v Speaker 3>The way I like to explain is like as the

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<v Speaker 3>red haired child, right, you can have a recessive gene

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<v Speaker 3>that is still there that will later become useful. And

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<v Speaker 3>what was happening here there was one species of sale

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<v Speaker 3>with two different female types, one that lived off on

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<v Speaker 3>rocks off the coast and one that lived on the shoreline.

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<v Speaker 3>They were the same species, but they had different characteristics. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>they took some of the shoreline snails, dropped them off

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<v Speaker 3>on some of the rocks, and within thirty years they

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<v Speaker 3>became the rock snails. And what had happened was that

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<v Speaker 3>gene was already there. It was recessive, it was not

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<v Speaker 3>being used, and they just picked it right back up

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<v Speaker 3>and became just like the ones that had been living

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<v Speaker 3>there before them.

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<v Speaker 1>So they were kind of just keeping it in their

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<v Speaker 1>hip pocket for the time being.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, Yeah, that's a great way to explain it.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure interesting. Okay, let's jump to Damien here. So Kelly

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<v Speaker 2>was contrasting Lamarck and Darwin here. But how does this

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<v Speaker 2>discovery shed light on the split between evolution in general

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<v Speaker 2>and creationism?

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<v Speaker 4>Very good question. Well, look at creationists going to creation

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<v Speaker 4>if that was a really bad, really bad sentence. But

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<v Speaker 4>as I think, as ken Hoven would say, I can't

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<v Speaker 4>believe I'm quoting ken Hooven here, but ken Hoven would say,

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<v Speaker 4>but they're still snails.

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<v Speaker 5>You know.

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<v Speaker 4>It's like, if we're trying to use this article to

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<v Speaker 4>prove that evolution is true, I really don't think this

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<v Speaker 4>is this is going to be It's a really interesting article.

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<v Speaker 4>And look, I'm I'm personally fascinated by how, you know, creatures,

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<v Speaker 4>how organisms adapt to their environment. And I think my

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<v Speaker 4>favorite example of this is the naked mole rat, which

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<v Speaker 4>is this little African rat that lives in the desert

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<v Speaker 4>underground and it's virtually blind and has like two teeth

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<v Speaker 4>and all that. But the way that this particular rat

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<v Speaker 4>has has adapted to the desert environments fantastic, But I

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<v Speaker 4>do want to take point with the article. There was

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<v Speaker 4>one sentence that they said that kind of maybe go huh,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's says once the snails found themselves in that

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<v Speaker 4>familiar environment, they access that genetic information, which in turn

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<v Speaker 4>fueled rapid evolution. I would like to know how snails

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<v Speaker 4>access genetic information, like do that have labs and like

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<v Speaker 4>you know, DNA sequences and all that kind of stuff,

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<v Speaker 4>or what it's like.

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<v Speaker 3>That isn't really interesting choice of words can because we love.

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<v Speaker 2>That they don't have highly can labs.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, it's fifty until we.

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<v Speaker 5>Know, right, because I you know, especially in previous years,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, I used to get into quite heated discussions

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<v Speaker 5>with creationists and one of the things that they would

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<v Speaker 5>say is, you know, biology makes extraordinary claims that sound ridiculous,

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<v Speaker 5>And to be fair in this instance, I have to

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<v Speaker 5>agree snails have no way of accessing their own genetic information.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 4>I agree that genes change, but I don't think I

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<v Speaker 4>did it to themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, right, Steven, I'd like to step over to

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<v Speaker 2>you for a second. I know you've been itching to

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<v Speaker 2>chime in on this subject here in the movie Jurassic Park,

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<v Speaker 2>the character Ian Malcolm, who's famously played by Jeff Goldbloom.

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<v Speaker 2>He says the famous quote life finds a way, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So what kind of light do these results cast on ideas?

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<v Speaker 2>Like doctor malcolms, uh, yeah, like I wish that I

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<v Speaker 2>wish I had more hope for the future.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm sorry, adults, I think like all the billionaires are

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<v Speaker 6>like getting as much money and they're going to hop

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<v Speaker 6>onto Elon's rockets and they're just going to head into

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<v Speaker 6>space and leave us peons down here until until the

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<v Speaker 6>world is used up or is destroyed. And in that scenario,

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<v Speaker 6>in that darkest scenario, it is encouraging for me to

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<v Speaker 6>think that, you know what, life does find a way,

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<v Speaker 6>that you know, like we are not like as great

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<v Speaker 6>as humans think they are. It is encouraging for me

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<v Speaker 6>to just be reminded of how how small we are

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<v Speaker 6>in the overall life narrative, that even snails are doing

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<v Speaker 6>this really amazing thing where they're evolving back and forth.

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<v Speaker 2>They're operating high tech labs in Sweden there, right.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, in Sweden, of all places, those countries are funding everything,

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<v Speaker 6>even the snail.

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<v Speaker 2>Labs that's going to lind up in some conservative political ad.

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, atheists claiming that the Swedish scientists

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<v Speaker 2>are actually snails.

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<v Speaker 4>As in disguise.

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<v Speaker 6>I think it's yeah, yeah, I just think it's encouraging.

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<v Speaker 6>It helps me appreciate my place within the greater tree

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<v Speaker 6>of life to remember that, you know, life will find

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<v Speaker 6>a way, and even if we mess up this planet

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<v Speaker 6>so badly that our way of living becomes a thing

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<v Speaker 6>of ancient history, that life is going to find a

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<v Speaker 6>way even without us.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, Kelly, you put in the notes, think of the

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<v Speaker 4>gene that causes red hair. I would love to get

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<v Speaker 4>your thoughts on that.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, that's what I was talking about. We have this

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<v Speaker 3>this gene that that's a recessive gene. It's not good

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<v Speaker 3>for it. We're not using it right. It just pops

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<v Speaker 3>up every once in a while. And that was kind

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<v Speaker 3>of like the gene that was accessed by the snails

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<v Speaker 3>in Sweden.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, got it.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're going down here, So we got to hurry

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<v Speaker 2>up and finish up this segment here.

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<v Speaker 4>So where are we going to see the red headed

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<v Speaker 4>sails of Sweden?

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<v Speaker 3>That's you know, that's what I was wondering. Next, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I did mention earlier, there's any introduction that this wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>like the first kind of study we've done like this.

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<v Speaker 3>There were several studies with Italian wall lizards and I'm

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<v Speaker 3>in populations of wall lizards and those were kind of

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<v Speaker 3>interest thing too, and they and we find out these

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<v Speaker 3>lizards would do the same thing. They would change phenotypes

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<v Speaker 3>just within a few generations to better adapt to the

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<v Speaker 3>new environment that they were put into, like being brought

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<v Speaker 3>to a different island with different.

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<v Speaker 4>What is a phenos hype? Like, explain the phenotype and

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<v Speaker 4>genotype because you know, when when someone discusses evolution, they

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<v Speaker 4>will throw they will use these words. But to even

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<v Speaker 4>to someone who is scientifically literate like me, you say phenotype,

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<v Speaker 4>I go, I.

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<v Speaker 3>Do dogs a species? Labrador is a phenotype. Poodle is

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<v Speaker 3>a phenotype. Subspecies not because they're the same species. Well,

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<v Speaker 3>they're just a variation of there are just a variation

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<v Speaker 3>of the species, but they're still within the species.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. I contrast that with genotape.

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<v Speaker 4>Then what is a genohype.

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<v Speaker 3>That would be a subspecies There would be an actual

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<v Speaker 3>genetic difference.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 3>We're talking about I think we'll we're and now I'm

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<v Speaker 3>not a biologist. Got to remember, I'm a geologist. I

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<v Speaker 3>won't deal with dead things. But I think what we're

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<v Speaker 3>talking about here is the amount of difference if you

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<v Speaker 3>have and we and and I'm thinking this because we

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<v Speaker 3>do this with minerals too. You know, if we have

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<v Speaker 3>just a just too much manganese instead of iron, it

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<v Speaker 3>becomes a different mineral. Right, So but if they're you

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<v Speaker 3>can still have just enough iron in it and it

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't change being a mineral that's into a new mineral.

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<v Speaker 3>So I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm assuming, not knowing biology

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<v Speaker 3>that well, that that's what we're looking at here. The

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<v Speaker 3>difference between a phenotype and a genotype. It's a certain

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<v Speaker 3>amount of percentage difference.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, I always, I always, And I might be wrong

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<v Speaker 2>here too, not too I'm saying Kelly's wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>I might be wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, I could be totally wrong. I said, I deal

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<v Speaker 3>with rocks.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I always learned about it as like genotype

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<v Speaker 2>is correlates to a cause, and phenotype correlates to an effect. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>if the pheno type is the outwardly observed differences we see,

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<v Speaker 2>like like Kelly was saying, differences in dog breeds and

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<v Speaker 2>things like that. And then the genotype is differences in

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<v Speaker 2>the foundational the genes, right, it's the difference from at

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<v Speaker 2>the DNA level.

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<v Speaker 1>So I don't know. I suppose that could be a

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<v Speaker 1>way to look at it as well.

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<v Speaker 2>But Kelly, I want you, I want you were talking

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<v Speaker 2>about the genotypes and the genes and genes lying in weight.

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<v Speaker 1>I think was the phrase that the article used.

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<v Speaker 2>I talked about having it in the hip pocket, that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of thing. How does that affect our understanding of

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<v Speaker 2>adaptation and the potential for adaptability of other species? If

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<v Speaker 2>this species can adapt rapidly due to these genes lying

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<v Speaker 2>in weight that may have been developed in the past

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<v Speaker 2>and then set aside and unused, or you know, there

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<v Speaker 2>could be any number of reasons how these could have

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<v Speaker 2>gotten developed. But what does that tell us about assumptions

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<v Speaker 2>that we might make of other situations about the adaptability

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<v Speaker 2>of other species.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I don't I don't know that we can say

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<v Speaker 3>that about all species can do, can can do this,

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<v Speaker 3>can access that iron you can access that information in

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<v Speaker 3>their little animal labs, So I know, I know, like

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<v Speaker 3>we've done studies with the Wallers or the Italian Wallers,

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<v Speaker 3>we know they can do it. We've done studies with

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<v Speaker 3>these snails. We know they can do it. But it's

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<v Speaker 3>hard to do this kind of a study because you

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<v Speaker 3>need to isolate the population to make the change happen,

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<v Speaker 3>and you need to isolate it into a position in

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<v Speaker 3>an environmental position where it has that gene to be

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<v Speaker 3>used to adapt to that situation. It has to have

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<v Speaker 3>that gene in its back pocket for that environmental situation,

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<v Speaker 3>if you will.

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<v Speaker 2>So in some ways it's a matter of coincidence or

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<v Speaker 2>is that what you're doing.

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<v Speaker 3>No, it's not really a coincidence, because that gene was

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<v Speaker 3>already there. In this case with the snail, there were

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<v Speaker 3>two populations, right, so they just and at one time

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<v Speaker 3>they were probably one population, but the ones in the

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<v Speaker 3>shore line stopped needing the characteristics that the ones out

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<v Speaker 3>living out on the rocks off the shoreline need it.

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<v Speaker 3>So they kind of just kind of, like you said,

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<v Speaker 3>stuffed it in the back pocket and stopped using it.

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<v Speaker 3>But now we're going to take them out to the

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<v Speaker 3>We're going to isolate them out on one of these scaries,

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<v Speaker 3>these rocks, and they go, hey, you know, great grandpa

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<v Speaker 3>knew how to do this, and pulled, they bring it

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<v Speaker 3>right back up. So that was almost the silliest access thing,

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<v Speaker 3>it wasn't it. You want to do this?

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, you know the gloves are off tonight, right, the

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<v Speaker 2>gloves are off.

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<v Speaker 1>We're we're just hitting it. We're telling it like it is.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the deal.

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<v Speaker 2>You're seeing it here right here on the nonprofits. I

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<v Speaker 2>want to go back to Damian real quick here. So

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<v Speaker 2>what does this tell us about? Because because they this

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<v Speaker 2>was something that they discovered in the wild, and and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we hear critiques of evolution talking about, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you've never observed this kind of thing, and and even

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<v Speaker 2>if this type of thing is observed in the laboratory,

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<v Speaker 2>it's set aside as well, you were intelligently manipulating the scenario.

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<v Speaker 2>So what does the impact of finding a situation like

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<v Speaker 2>this where we do see these drastic changes over a

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<v Speaker 2>relatively short period of time in the wild, though, what's

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<v Speaker 2>the what's the significance of that, of the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>this was in the wild versus the laboratory?

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<v Speaker 4>I think absolutely nothing. To someone who is absolutely convinced

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<v Speaker 4>that life as we know it was created by an

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<v Speaker 4>intelligent agent more or less in its current form, you

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<v Speaker 4>could just dismiss all of this as variations, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>and this is something that Kent Hoven we're probably like

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<v Speaker 4>ken Hoven, we hear he would probably say, this is

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<v Speaker 4>all these variations variations on a kind. There's still snails,

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<v Speaker 4>there's still you know. And this is what I think

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<v Speaker 4>I mentioned this before, is that you know that we're

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<v Speaker 4>not creationists are looking for that like Pokemon type change

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<v Speaker 4>where now I don't know about Pokemon very well, but

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<v Speaker 4>you know, someone give me a Pokemon that changes quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>Pikachu, the Pokemon poke Pokemon.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, Okay, I'm trying to give a example of a Pokemon.

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<v Speaker 4>But yeah, like creationists are looking for that Pokemon that

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<v Speaker 4>goes from one form to another within one generation. So

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<v Speaker 4>we can we can prove via numerous different means, how

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<v Speaker 4>genes change, how genes affect body plans. You know, we

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<v Speaker 4>can see the fossil record that goes all the way

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<v Speaker 4>back also all the way down in geology, all that

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<v Speaker 4>kind of stuff. But you're never going to convince someone

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<v Speaker 4>who doesn't want to be convinced. But I think from

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<v Speaker 4>from a rational from.

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<v Speaker 1>A rational as practical matter, it doesn't make a difference.

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<v Speaker 4>Is what you're saying no, I don't think so this

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<v Speaker 4>is this will be one more data point that they

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<v Speaker 4>could ignore, because then the battleground would go from how

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<v Speaker 4>do they get the genetic information in the first place

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<v Speaker 4>to you can't explain consciousness? How does a how does

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<v Speaker 4>a person made up a material match to have a

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<v Speaker 4>brain to be able to understand this in this place?

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<v Speaker 4>It must be because of the god.

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<v Speaker 2>Damien's turning into a presop over here. I think we're

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<v Speaker 2>watching it. We're seeing it in real time here, that's.

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<v Speaker 3>Not scientific by saying and I think Damian brought it

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<v Speaker 3>up earlier. Yeah, but it didn't change kind. It's it's

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<v Speaker 3>still a snail, so it didn't make kind and kind

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't mean shit in science, right, It's just it's a word.

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<v Speaker 3>So when you're trying to talk to people in the

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<v Speaker 3>Bend about stuff like this, they don't even understand the

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<v Speaker 3>language that's supposed to be used. And it's really difficult

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<v Speaker 3>to get these ideas across. And I want to point

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<v Speaker 3>out that we did. We have watched the new species

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<v Speaker 3>evolved that happened in the Glopico silence in the nineteen eighties.

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<v Speaker 3>It's called the big bird finch. It's a species of

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<v Speaker 3>finch that came off of one of the native finches,

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<v Speaker 3>and a ground finch that was accidentally blown there during

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<v Speaker 3>a storm, and there is now an established colony of

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<v Speaker 3>these animals. It was a whole new species that was

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<v Speaker 3>born and we were able to watch it happen. So

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<v Speaker 3>we have actually seen in real time evolution happy in

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<v Speaker 3>creating a new species. And I have talked to creationists

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<v Speaker 3>about that, and yeah, but it didn't change kind.

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<v Speaker 4>And this proves my point, Kelly, is that to someone

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<v Speaker 4>who is adamant that a deity was involved, or even

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<v Speaker 4>people who believe that evolution is essentially eugenics, or that

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<v Speaker 4>you know that evolution was why Hitler did all the

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<v Speaker 4>things he did, you know, you can point to a

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<v Speaker 4>group of snails in Sweden that access the genetic information

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<v Speaker 4>and you'll not convince the creationists that evolution happens anything

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<v Speaker 4>more than anything more than minor variations.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I do want to point out one thing really quick here,

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<v Speaker 2>and our director apparently knows much more about Pokemon than

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<v Speaker 2>we do, because he's been cranking out names of Pokemon's

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<v Speaker 2>in the in the show chat here. So just I

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<v Speaker 2>just want to get that on the record, there, but

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<v Speaker 2>I want to go back to Stephen. So this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of implies that there is at least the potential for

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<v Speaker 2>some species to adapt and evolve rapidly if maybe if

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<v Speaker 2>things go back to a previous state where they might

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<v Speaker 2>have seen before, you know, they've had an opportunity to

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<v Speaker 2>evolve in that. Does that have any impact on our

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<v Speaker 2>human perception of conservation of the environment. You know, we

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<v Speaker 2>talk about how the environment is changing global climate change,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's affecting our ecosystem negatively in such a way

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<v Speaker 2>that it's making it more and more difficult for us

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<v Speaker 2>to survive. Does this give us hope that maybe we

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<v Speaker 2>can overcome something like that? Or what are your thoughts

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<v Speaker 2>on that? I mean, does it have an impact on

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<v Speaker 2>our views on conservation?

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<v Speaker 6>Like I it gives me. It gives me a warm,

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<v Speaker 6>fuzzy feelings to consider the fact that even if we

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<v Speaker 6>mess up the planet so severely that we can't live here,

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<v Speaker 6>that other species will be able to pull into genetic

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<v Speaker 6>material that maybe will help them at least survive. That

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<v Speaker 6>makes me feel happier that that other species will be

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<v Speaker 6>able to survive our colossal fuck ups even if we can't. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 6>just the idea that that that you know that other

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<v Speaker 6>creatures that share this planet can be more adaptable and

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<v Speaker 6>can adapt quickly. I think that'll be a tremendous advantage.

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<v Speaker 6>And I worship our I welcome our soon snail overlords

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<v Speaker 6>as they.

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<v Speaker 2>Are redheaded Swedish snail laboratory.

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<v Speaker 1>They got the white coats on and everything, and apparently

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<v Speaker 1>iron worship.

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<v Speaker 2>They've evolved that iron fist and they lead with ruthlessness.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>I hope they don't revive their old snail religions though,

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<v Speaker 2>as long as they leave.

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<v Speaker 4>You guys, I've loved you since.

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<v Speaker 6>I met you.

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<v Speaker 2>Boy, we've sure gotten to that place, haven't we. All right, well,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe this was that I think this would be a

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<v Speaker 2>good place to stop here.

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<v Speaker 1>We've we've we've split

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<v Speaker 2>Off on as many tangents as we possibly can with

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<v Speaker 2>this subject.