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Speaker 3: A live man like this man letting butterfly flaven his
wing big down in the forest.
Speaker 1: Man, it gonna cause a tree fall, letting five thousand
miles away.
Speaker 3: Man, nobody seen, nobody else. You don't need no man.
We don't like you, and you got back. That's the man.
Speaker 1: Don't black a name on the pane.
Speaker 4: Right, all right, Thomas, welcome back to the Jay Burton Show.
How you doing, man, very well?
Speaker 1: Thanks for hosting me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, man, So you and I are continuing our discussion
of Blade Runner with the twenty seventeen half reboot half
sequel twenty forty nine. Obviously, this movie is sort of
in the right wing psyche right. You'll see you know,
clips from it used constantly, But even aside from that,
it holds up remarkably well. Denis Villeneuve is I mean,
one of my favorite modern directors. There's some hits and
some misses there, but it is a film worth watching.
If you haven't seen it, it's a Google search away,
you can find it for free, so highly recommend it.
But Thomas, I guess I'll kick it over to you,
is kind of an introduction.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, like I I think what I started
to addressed the subject matter a little bit in our
first episode. They had a twenty forty nine, I mean,
and then I called myself, say, you reminded me that,
you know, it warn'ted a dedicated episode.
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 5: I wasn't entirely surprised that the hate that the film
got because you know, again that that that was basically
a you know, a reflection of what the way the
way the original was received in nineteen eighty two, you know,
and I think a lot of people didn't really understand.
Speaker 1: What the.
Speaker 5: What the film was trying to convey, you know, and
it was very much it very much honored the source
material by retaining universe aspects of the plot and the
narrative that are essential because, like we talked about last time,
there very much is an alternative history aspect of Blade Runner,
you know, and that's important because it's it's not it's
not simply our future. It's a possible future that didn't
come to pass, but aspects of which we recognize from
our world, you know. And one of the strengths of
it too is that you know, the the the antagonist
really two kay and the resistance that he discovers, the
depth and substance of which is an open ended question,
and it's not clear if you know, there the resistance
that is developing among the the current generation replicants, sort
of the most human of all there before created. It's
not clear if this is just something that's conceptually brewing,
as it were, or if it is a real, you know,
mobilized tendency that is on the cost of changing the world.
But regardless, it is obvious in everybody's mind, and particularly
you know, that's the biggest potential danger to the to
the current order. But uh, you know, and the Wallace
Corporation and the character of Neander Wallace. You know, I
think Jared Leito is actually a good actor. I know
that a lot of these fanboy types savage him is
some terrible actor because he offended them by his portrayal
of some comic book ip or something. I don't fully
understand it, but you know, the Wallass Corporation, it's not
just some reducts of and the character of Walls themselves.
It's not just a reducs a tyro. Oh, he's not
even really a villain, you know. Like I mentioned before,
I don't think he's He's willing to forego conventional morality
to realize his ambitions. But he's not just playing god
like Tyrrell was, you know, and he's not. He's got
a vision for the enduring posterity if the human species.
That's why he's doing everything he's doing, you know, and
the whole uh the Nexus uh nine replicans, you know,
coding memories into them that they themselves were aware are
not actual experiences. That's actually quite humane because it's you know,
from their inception.
Speaker 1: In Nexus nine.
Speaker 5: Are aware that of what they are, you know, so
that eases some of the most brutalizing and existentially terrifying
aspects of of their existence.
Speaker 1: You know, and similarly to it, the UH.
Speaker 5: The implication too is that there's a there's an in
universe progression of the moral understanding around the replicants.
Speaker 1: It's not an accident that k.
Speaker 5: Is uh, you know, a replicant, and the implication is
that Blade Runners are all replicants because he's not capable
of disobeying a natural human, you know, So that removes
potential insubordination from the equation and uncomfortable questions relating to
you know, the ethics of of of chain and command
and things. But also you know, it's one of the
big subtext of the original Blade Runner is that Deckert
is slowly losing his mind because he's he's.
Speaker 1: Paid to murder people, you know, and.
Speaker 5: That's not the sort of thing one wants police officers
to be habituated too.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: And there's an understanding of I think that's really kind
of on the nose in the original Blade Runner, that
this is the replicant. Technology is very much uh. Social
conventions and ethical paradigms are still very much in development
around what is new technology, and there's always a punctuality
equilibrium to technology that alters social and political paradigms. And
undermines cultural and moral assumptions. But in the case of replicants,
there's a there's a deliberate euphemism invoked around them, because again,
they're they're not androids, they're not robots, they're they're human beings,
they're biological, you know, and they they they can't. Depriving
them categorically of their humanity is very much a fiction
that is uh essential to rationalizing their their brutal existence,
which is totally subordinate to naturally birth humans, you know,
and uh, wall is acknowledged. Neander Wallace acknowledges that, and
his whole, his whole ambition is, you know, to unlock
Terrell's secret of you know, replicants that can naturally reproduce,
because again that's you know, the human species needs to
populate the galaxy in his estimation, lest it face ultimate extinction,
you know, really an unconceivable timeline where man doesn't migrate
off world, you know, And the only way to accomplish
this is essentially through the mass production of superior people,
you know, who can then reproduce themselves, either you know,
on board generationships or on off rold environments that are
you know, until until archaeological infrastructure that can sustained life
is built is very hostile to it's a human life,
you know. So it's sort of a natural progression, you know,
decades on from the original in terms of ethical paradigms
and sociological adaptations to this new reality. And also, you know,
just the the trajectory of new technology, because you know, technology,
especially especially things that are inherently problematic ethically, they you
know this, it develops its own momentum, you know. That's why,
that's why the that's that's that's why the Cold War
strategic arms race was so dangerous, particularly as human decision
makers were increasingly sidelined in favor of you know, albeit
at that juncture primitive machine intelligence, but just the existence
of such.
Speaker 1: Weapons themselves changed everything.
Speaker 5: And you know, the metaphor of a Pandora's box might
be over done, but it's apropos because man isn't really
at the helm, you know. And then in the world
of Blade Runner, obviously you're talking about you know, the
technology in question is uh, consciously self aware of human
beings with agency, something that.
Speaker 1: Obviously is.
Speaker 5: A totally anarchic variable that isn't present in the case
of you know, inert technological modalities. But even in the
case of those that aren't alive, you know, institutions and
conceptual structures and paradigms, both open ended and algorithmic need
to be devised to control these things, because you know,
man is not at the helm of his creation more
often than not. And you know, so I think I
think the world building was incredibly deep and it like
I said before, I think do Anderd's Dream of Electric
Sheep is a great is a great book. It's a
great story, and the world building in it is awesome.
And that's an outlier. I don't think Philip K. Dick
that generally wasn't a strong suit, you know, but it's
really it's not just effectively conveyed and Blade Runner the
novel and the films, but it's an essential aspect of
the narrative and that's what makes it compelling, that's what
makes it profound. But that's also what allows you to
suspend disbelief. And I think an I mean, admittedly there
might be a bias inherent here because of where I
live and Milo Call in particular is very much the
model for cyberpunk sorts of ips and things.
Speaker 1: But Blade Runner came.
Speaker 5: True in substantial capacities in a way that other dystopian
fantasies and and and movies and novels didn't, you know.
And I think that that alone makes it a highly
significant cultural product, you know, in a way that other
things aren't, you know. I mean, these days almost everything
is somewhat politically coded when you're talking about entertainment brands
and things. You know, obviously there's there there, there's Hollywood
that's you know, constantly insinuating ideological signals into their propaganda.
But you know, there is a robust independent film culture now,
and almost unfailingly it's either in reaction to big media
and le media and uh it's ideological persuasion or you
know it's UH, or you know it's it's staking out
theretofore UH unexplored UH in the sense in UH, you know,
with in at least in cinema, unexplored UH territory with
respect to political questions, you know, and Blade Runner it
avoids that sort of on the nose and pedantic UH
narrative that all too often stands in for real storytelling.
But it it's a credible UH and very nuanced and
complete world that is uh devised around it. I realized
there's a lot there, but that's I mean to sort
of frame the discussion that that's what I think is
good about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I So the plot starts with Kay and sort of
going out to a sort of retire this replicant Sapper
Morton played by Dave Fatista, who I'll say he's a
very good actor. He's probably the best wrestler to actor transplant.
Like John Cena and The Rock are not real actors.
Dave Patista is quite good and he plays a very
is an understated performance. He's not hamming it up, and
Kay brings him in. This is kind of the first
part where you see the both the expansion of our
view of the world of Blade Runner and also the cinematography,
which is excellent. He's on this kind of outlying protein
farm outside of Los Angeles. It's sort of this these
greenhouses full of you know, synthetic grubs growing analogae. It's
it's pretty gross, but it is kind of a cool
extension of it. So, you know, he brings him in
and his drone, which he you know, sends out to
scan the area, finds something at the base of a tree.
Finds a box full of bones, so of course, you know,
he brings it in. Turns out that these are the
bones of Rachel correct from the first movie, and they
bring it back, they look at it, and what they
find out is that what's really shocking, and this is
sort of the insiding incident of the story, is that
she died in childbirth. A replicant gave birth, which you
know as as Madame or Madam. His kind of superior
at the police department says like, this breaks everything, This
blows up the world. And she says, you know, there's
a wall, and continually we see this visual of the
sea wall protecting Los Angeles from you know, this kind
of raging sea, and she says, if that wall falls
down the divider between you know, replicants and humans, it's chaos.
It's a war of extermination. And so that is, you know,
sort of the inciting incident. Very quickly, we were introduced
to several things about k One my favorite, or perhaps
the most interesting character in this is Joy, and Joy
is this sort of digital assistant slash girlfriend. We see
advertisements for this everywhere and basically she exists to sort
of it's kind of like a stand in social function
or k as well as other people epectively, you buy
a subscription with his bonus from you know, taking in
this this replicant he buys basically a piece of technology
that allows him to carry her wherever he goes. There's
a little jingle that goes along every time she wants
to talk to him. You'll hear that repeated over and
over throughout the film. And again this is interesting because
we see an extension of an idea from the first Joy,
at least it seems, is partially sentient. She does things
later in the film that violate her programming, and you know,
ultimately she is destroyed or killed and point is so
Joy initially when we see her is sort of sliding
into his life. We see this kind of juxtaposition between
what he is doing and how this digital hologram is reacting. So,
for instance, we see him, you know, pouring her a drink,
pulls out the whiskey, you know, pours two glasses drinks
one then the other. This this hologram is projected on
top of what's really happening. We see this happen multiple times,
so we see, you know, he's making this kind of
like disgusting rehydrated noodles, and over top of it, it
projects the you know, the wonderful meal that his you know,
digital girlfriend has made for him. Yeah, when it realizes, yeah, yeah,
and this will come back to this character because again
it's it's fascinating how she reoccurs through this.
Speaker 1: Well, so it's not clear entirely.
Speaker 5: Obviously, on some levels he does become spontaneously sentient, but
you know how much of her affection for him is
just you know, the algorithm you know, prompting responses you know,
as it gets to know him psychologically, you know, and
it's just.
Speaker 1: Being you know, like a well, a well and a
well programmed AI.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, go ahead, oh certainly, and this will again
Blater in a sort of famous for these shots of
you know, the city with these kind of towering advertisements.
And in addition to the little jingle, the joy jingle,
the other thing is the tagline is she tells you
exactly what you want to hear over and over and
over again, which you know becomes relevant. So he decides
to now that he knows about you know, these bone
and knows that there are other replicants connected to this
group that's been missing. He goes to Tyrell Corporation or
the Wallace Corporations, which bought the remains of it, and
we find out several things. One we hear about this
blackout basically, the whole city lost power.
Speaker 1: It lost an.
Speaker 4: Immense amount of digital records, and so all records pertaining
to you know, a certain period in time are spody
at best. We also meet sort of the prime antagonist
of the film, Love, who is another replicant. She's sort
of the the head henchman. And she realizes as.
Speaker 1: Well, she's found like a female Roy Baddy in terms
of capabilities.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and she realizes as well, oh no, there's a
pregnant replicant. This matters obviously, you know. Wallace wants that
because that is, as you've said, the thing, you know,
Jared Leto desires most the ability to have them reproduce
on their own instead of being manufactured. So this is
sort of you know, the inciting lot. H Kay goes
back to the scene of the you know, the opening
to the movie and examines everything, right, and he finds
several things. He finds, you know, a baby sock, and
he finds a date, and the date sort of unlocks
this memory. This memory is of him as a child
running away from a group of boys with a small
wooden toy with this same date carved on the bottom.
And he tells this to his superior, who seems to
try and come on to him. He you know, rejects
her advances, but nonetheless he you know, is talking about
this memory he has connected to this same date that
he sees carved on the tree under which Rachel was buried.
And so this is where we start to see him
sort of deviate from his program. There is this memory
that he has in himself seems somehow to be connected
to this case. The conversations between Madam and Kay are
really fascinating for a couple of reasons because one, she's very,
at least initially very blase about the fact that he
is not human. You know, she he when she charges
him with killing this child ending this, he says, well,
I've never killed anything with the soul before, I never
killed anything that was born, and you know, she sort
of throws back in his face, well, you know you
don't have a soul and you're doing fine, you know,
indicating this kind of distinction. You know, the idea is like,
what is it to have a soul? Is it, you know,
to simply be born? Is it, you know, as we
see with Kay, to sort of develop your own consciousness
or even any example of joy?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 4: Can that be fully digital? And I think that's really
the most interesting thing about the movie. What it's the
sort of the question it's asking sammining from different angles.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, and that's part of the genius of it.
Like we greatly touched on before, is that the the
the ontological subtext of the original Blade Runner is decord
in the back of decord in Gaff's mind for that
matter too, is am I a replicant? In a twenty
forty nine case asking himself? Am I a human being?
Speaker 1: You know? And uh, increasingly, you know.
Speaker 5: The the criteria that disqualifies replicants from humanity is completely
arbited for ee. And it's uh, it's it's it's at base. Uh,
it's at base philosophical and political.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: That's the metaphor of the of the of the wall
that holds back to sea, you know. But that's also
why that's also why Walls isn't really a villain. Well,
Walls is trying to blow it up, you know, which
is uh, ironic too.
Speaker 1: I mean, like a lot of uh.
Speaker 5: He kind of reminds me the character of Zepperoni and
the Glass Bees. You know, Walls is manipulating everybody, you know,
like La PD is a they they believe their mandate
to be something totally at odds that Wallas is trying
to accomplish. But you know, they're playing executive role that
he wants them to within his grand scheme. You know,
he's the most interesting character in the film, I think.
But that might be uh, I mean that that might
be my own conceptual prejudice. But yeah, it's very there's
a lot there. I had to watch it a few
times to fully grasp all the key aspects of it,
and I think that's one of the things that puts
some people off about it.
Speaker 1: It's a film you've.
Speaker 5: Got to really engage with if you can't really just
kind of passively watch it, you know. I I that
that not just I mean, I'm sure that attention spans
have diminished precipitously, but that even long ago. It's one
of the things that put people off of a lot
Alfred Hitchcock films, and that's something that put people off
of Fritz Lang stuff. And I mean, like I said,
I I maintained that Blade Runner is a spiritual sequel
to Metropolis, you know, but it was the same thing.
I mean, most people when they watch Metropolis, they're taken
in by the visuals because Fritz Lang's visuals are are
really wild and compelling.
Speaker 1: But you both.
Speaker 5: Metropolis and m You've got to really pay attention and
be involved with those films otherwise you're you miss like
key aspects of the plot and how it resolves and stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so as we you're entirely correct, because look like
this movie is you know, visually compelling and you can
pick up on, you know, certain things, but it's pretty
slow in the grand scheme of things. It's not really
an action movie even compared to the first. You know,
there are there is exciting things at certain points, but
it's you know, all of three and a half hours.
It's it's fairly long.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's ten minutes so like violence and fighting, yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly. So part of the what develops next, and
the reason I'm sort of going through this quickly is
so that we can get to without context, this won't
make sense, right, is that as part of this this
quest looking for this child, you know, he has this date,
and he has this memory of you know this saying
this animal, this carved wooden animal with a date on it.
And so when he goes to look for medical records connected,
he finds two one male and one female, anomalous records. Right,
they have the same It matches the birth date. So
he basically looks into this and he finds that according
to these records, which again because of this big blackout,
are very spotty, they're manually sorted. And what's interesting is,
you know, because he can carry a joy around with him,
there are all of these scenes of the two of
them interacting, and again she is transparent, and there's this
great scene where he's looking into this. It sort of
looks like an old school analog vision tester, right scrolling
through these records, and she projects around him, over top
of them, so you see their faces sort of layered
one on top of the other. But he finds these two,
these two incidents or these yeah, these two children seemingly
with the same DNA, one male, one female. Females listed
as deceased, and for the male, they have a record
in an orphanage. So he goes out into sort of
the waste land surrounding Los Angeles to find this orphanage.
He is shot down by a group of raiders, and
even though he fights a few of them off, it's
there's hundreds of them, and the Wallace Corporation, we don't
know this is watching him. They're tracking him because they
want to find the child and basically use a gunship
to blow these guys away. K is alive, so he
goes into this orphanage, which is sort of and again
this is something that is real, right. They have this
room full of children breaking apart technology to salvage you know,
rare metals from it. And when he goes into you know,
confront this, you know, the owner of this orphanage, he
finds that the records pertaining to you know, this child
and really everything around them have been ripped out. But
while he's there, he realizes, I recognize this. This is
the same scene from my memory. So he steals to
one side and going back to that memory of running
away from these kids. Apparently in this orphanage. The conclusion
to the memory is he takes this wooden horse and
hides it in a burnt out furnace so that the
other children can't get it, and in his own memory,
he's beaten for it. And when he goes to apparently
the same location, he reaches into the furnace and he
finds it. He finds this little wooden doll with the
same code or the same date rather from the tree.
It matches up. And this is where we really start
to see k questioning is this memory mine because it's
in my head it matches up to reality, and how
is it connected to this case? We see him start
to suspect maybe he is the child, because again it
matches his memories. So he goes to and I don't
remember her name, but this doctor who creates synthetic memories
for replicants. We find out that she is has some
sort of autoimmune disease, so she effectively lives in a bubble.
She can't go out out of it.
Speaker 1: And doctor Stealin exactly, and yeah, doctor Anna Stealin.
Speaker 4: He basically goes and talks to her to find out,
you know, is this memory real or not. She's the
one who would know. And in between this we get
a fascinating conversation between him and Joy where he has
already begun to suspect that he is the child, and
Joy says, of course you are. You know, you always
knew you were special. And she says, well, you know,
if you're a real person, if you were born, you
should have a name. So she gives him the name
of Joe, basically saying like, you're the chosen one.
Speaker 1: This is you.
Speaker 4: But when he goes to doctor Stealine, he finds out
this is a f This is someone else's memory. It
is not yours, which we find out as a major
faux Paul. The memories are supposed to be entirely synthetic.
But nonetheless, you know, he has been given someone else's memory.
He is not, and he hasn't quite come to believe
it yet. Sort of this this chosen One, uh, just
kind of running through the plot some more.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: This is effectively when he decides to break, where he
decides to you know, leave the kind of his programming
we see, you know, a rerun. This is at both
the beginning and kind of the midpoint of the film
of the void comp Test, where he.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the baseline test.
Speaker 5: But it's it's interesting how it's uh, because again it's
opposite coded, you know, like the the void comp test
is to like determine, you know, it's it's it's the
it's to determine, you know, empathetic responses and normal emotional range,
because a replicant is supposed to lack those things. Like
the baseline tests, it picks up on emotional responses and like.
Speaker 1: Empathetic reactions, you know.
Speaker 5: So it's the exact opposite of void comp Yeah, it's fascinating.
Both those segments are really really well written.
Speaker 4: So well, certainly, and there's and I don't have it
in front of me, but you can pick up on
references in that test which are sort of interesting both
to the film and also to literature as well. But
he's blown the test. He's completely off of his baseline program.
And we understand that replicants who are not baseline are eliminated, right,
they don't last. But he goes in to talk to
his boss to talk to you, madam, and he lies
to her, which is interesting. This comes back again because
the common received wisdom is that replicants can't lie. And
he says, oh, I killed the child, and she was
grateful for this, This crisis has been averted. And she says,
you know what, I can't help you, but I can
get you out of here. You can leave. You did
you saved the world, so at least she thinks, right,
you're free to go. And so he's now on the
run and we get to in my mind, what is
one of the most interesting scenes in the movie with
this this character of Joy, because again we see this
kind of clash between how Joy is marketed, which is
basically as a sex spot. You know, she's you know,
kind of dripping with you know, sexuality, but Kay's version
of her is just this sort of idyllic domestic scene.
You know, there's very little kind of sexuality to it.
You sort of get the feeling that what Kay actually
wants is just a family. He wants to have a
sort of human relationship. And earlier in the film, while
he started this investigation, we sort of see, as you've mentioned,
this sort of rebellion teased earlier, but he interacts with
these prostitutes, one of whom you know, basically tried to
get some information out of him. It didn't work, And
several times throughout it, Joy is basically mentioned like, oh,
I know you like her, and we hear this again
and again she can tell you know that he's attracted
to certain women and so unbeknownst to him, right before
he goes on the run, Hea sickly calls a prostitute
into his room and layers herself on top of it,
right she she projects her sort of digital appearance onto
this I guess replicant but still physical woman. The two
of them, you know, spend the night together, and it's
an interesting dynamic socially, of course, you know, because she
is sort of Joy rather has brought this other woman
into their relationship as it is. But you know, it's
this sort of you know, blending of on one hand,
and he has an emotional relationship with a digital person
who may or may not have any sort of soul.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's fascinating too because Joy, you know, Joy's an
integrated is an is an integrated AI, you know, to
all of his other platforms, so she knows what he's
searching for. She knows what kinds of girls he looks at,
you know, like just on his on his devices and things.
So you know, it can Joy might just be curiating
his preferences, you know, to develop a pleasing interactive persona
you know, I mean that's not the whole story, but
it's an aspect of it, you know, which is really interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now that that scene is uh is keeno man?
Speaker 4: Well, And and the way that it concludes, where you
know he's on the run, is particularly interesting because we
see Joy as well break at least we would assume
with her program because she says, look like, you know,
if you're going to take me with you, one, you
need to delete me from your house, from the device here,
because they'll have access to everything about you, which is interesting, right.
We see a certain degree of you know, sacrifice there.
But she says, we two things. One, you can transfer
me under this little it's basically USB stick, right, something
he can carry around that allows her to follow him,
which and he says, he's like, well, if it breaks,
you're dead, because you know, your backup years is gone.
And she says, yeah, well it's now I can die
just like you. And also what's particularly interesting is she
tells him to disable the transmitter in that physical device,
the thing that communicates between the thing that he's holding
and Wallace, right, which is interesting, right if she is
entirely you know, a creation or at least still programmed
by Wallace, why would she do that sort of an
interesting thing there? So they basically head out. They run.
We have a brief scene where he analyzes the chemical
content of this wooden horse, finds out that it is
contaminated with the remnants of the dirty bomb. The closest
location is Las Vegas, right that was hit by a
dirty bomb, and so he flies to Las Vegas now
on the run for his life as a replicant on baseline.
The visuals of Las Vegas are insane. It's this again
out sort of like hedenic city. You know, there are
these giant, you know, naked women statues kind of sinking
into the dust. You know, it's it's it looks like
the surface of Mars. It's you know, very stunning visually.
And while he's there, he finds life, he finds bees.
These lead him to confrontation with Deckert.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: The confrontation with Deckert is really fascinating for a number
of reasons. Uh, I figured you would particularly enjoy. They
have this sort of fight in a holographic sort of
display center in the casino that he's holed up in,
which is sort of semi functional. So there it's not
even really a fight. Decord's just hitting him and k
is taking the damage. But in the midst of sort
of a holographic Elvis concert, which is glitching out and
cutting in and cutting out. Uh So, anyway, I've covered
a lot of ground there, Thomas, anything you want to
respond to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the just real quick too.
Speaker 5: It's obvious where Deckard's hold up and some it's some
sort of Blade Runner world version of the Luxor.
Speaker 1: I think it's like you know, and.
Speaker 5: Like the the the giant sculptures of the nude women
are are mildly uh or loosely themed, like in an
Egyptian way, and it it's really fascinating, and especially because
like Vegas in our world is becoming kind of post apocalyptic.
Speaker 1: But it.
Speaker 5: But no, and I think, uh, Deckard also was essential
to the plot. I it's something that was really off
base that a lot of people who were really punitive
and they're reviewing with the film, they said, oh, this
is just some dumb cameo or it's fan service something
like you know, you don't get the movie then you know,
like it's not that's not what it is at all.
But yeah, I think, uh, what's also important the whole
you know, the uh yeah, joy is both developing true
splendid self awareness and consciousness. But uh, you know, there's
also an aspect of of a of simply reactive programming,
you know, but that's the whole. There's a lot of
nonsense that goes into this sort of speculation about the
potentiality of quantum computing, the things, especially kind of broad
applications therein but one thing that is true, and this
this gets into some very complex stuff, you know, the
anthropic principle and things like that, and the nature of mind, and.
Speaker 1: There's this, there's this.
Speaker 5: It's a philosophical postulate, but when you're dealing with highly
theoretical physics and things, you know, what's philosophical and what
constitutes arguably, you know, scientific theory, it kind of collapses
on itself. But there is a there is an idea
that consciousness is the universe essentially perceiving itself, and consciousness
tries to this almost sounds Lamarckian or something, but it's.
Speaker 1: If there's a.
Speaker 5: The raw potentiality for mind to develop, you know, it conscious,
the configuration of these variables like tends towards consciousness. I'm
oversimplifying profoundly, but you know that's that obviously has profound significance,
and any sort of treatment of artificial intelligence, you know,
in terms of it's in terms of its nature and
essence as well as potentialities. And that obviously is very
much an aspect of Blade Runner, not just you know,
an aspect of the not just a plot device to
carry the story forward and to post questions relevant to
the underlying sort of ethical schema that informs the entire narrative,
but it's it's also a real thing.
Speaker 1: You know. Mind is very mysterious.
Speaker 5: I mean to say the least that that sounds literally basic,
but I you know, one of the whole one of
the reasons why computing is a is important. It's not
just because it expedites processes, you know, which because you're
you're modeling a you're modeling a mind, albeit at this
juncture in you know, very rudimentary ways. But the only
way to truly understand what thought is and what consciousness
is is to reverse engineer something that's capable of thinking,
you know. And that's one of the really fascinating aspects
I think of blave Runner. It's not just a fantasy piece,
you know it. And that's why, like I said at
the top of the or, I think, in many respects
it came true, and that continues to be.
Speaker 1: Revealed. You know. That was one of the but that
was the strength of Philip K. Dick.
Speaker 5: I said, you know, I really like a scander darkly
as well. And I think that actually the film is dope.
I think I mentioned that last time, you know, and
it's I I'm a fan of rotalsping even I know
some people in that's a gimmicky But because in May
Philip K. Dick, he uh, the he was obviously a
guy who spent a lot of time with phenomenology. I
mean he I mean that's well known, but he you know, uh,
the experience of the discreet self, the inner lives of
individual people, you know, immersed in a hyper technologically driven
environment where the kind of reference points whereby people orient
themselves in you know, conscious waking life. He was really
good at conveying the confusion of that and the difficulty
and negotiating human affairs, both you know, in an individual
and and collective capacity.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: And he was the guy who struggled with mental illness.
But I believe too that was one of the reasons
he was able to convey these sort of psychic and
emotional states. So effectively because a lot of I mean,
mental illness is sort of an open ended term conceptually.
But I believe people are psychically sensitive. There's a symbolic
psychology is kind of like IQ, okay. I believe it
can be measured, and I believe that there's a very
wide range of personality types therein or configurations as of
mind and personality as it were. People who are emotionally
and psychically sensitive, particularly the psychological aspects in their environment
of a symbolic character. Technological living is really really disruptive
to them. I see that in myself, okay, and everybody
experiences that to some degree. It's not rarefied, but some
people can adapt to it more effectively than others. And
I think of people who are particularly signsitive in that way,
they're almost a metaphysical weather vein, you know, because that
there's this odd juxtaposition where by as human life is
extended and shortages are eliminated, and creature comforts and other
things are facilitated by high tech that would have been
unthinkable even a generation ago, the trade off is that
there's profoundly anti human aspects to what is yielded by
these things, you know, and like I said, you know,
at the top of the out where this technology develops
its own momentum. You know, it's completely paradigm changing. And
that's uh, you know, that's one of the reasons why
the it's almost almost a subplot involving k Enjoys relationship.
Speaker 1: I mean obviously that it drives the main story. But
even if.
Speaker 5: You know, you can't you can't control who or what
you fall in love with, even if it even if
even if an AI is not truly sentient and it's
purely you know, reactively like a reactive algorithm, if a
rational man of at least average intelligence falls in love
with it, I mean that that's the state he finds
himself in. You know, you can't reason your way out
of those sorts of psychic and emotional states, you know,
And like I said, particularly somebody who's sensitive to the
more symbolic aspects of psychological experience, that could be devastating
to them, you know.
Speaker 1: But I mean the.
Speaker 5: Film, like the way they're I don't want to give
away the plot. He hasn't seen it, but it is
devastating what becomes the relationship, but does a bit rambly
but that you know, it's a profect. I highly recommend it,
just like I do Prometheus, even for people aren't particularly
into science fiction. Prometheis is a very profound film, and
so is Covenant. It's sequel, Blade Runner is a superior film.
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, I.
Speaker 5: It's something that people should especially people who take an
interest in, you know, the situation we and our feeble
fin o souls in. It's it's a film they should
watch and take seriously, especially these days when people correctly,
you know, lament the fact that there's there's not really
worthwhile stuff, and you know, in in the mainstream culture.
Speaker 1: You know that. I mean, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 5: I think there's incredible stuff being produced that's outside of
the mainstream. But I know, people, one of the things
that America has to offer traditionally and in terms of
the arts is cinema. It's like, okay, well, something like
better in a twenty forty nine and that's that is
a big movie, and it's very profound and very relevant.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: That's certainly, and I want to append to that once
we get a little bit further in the plot, but
sort of running through this, Key and Deckard have this conversation,
you know, they basically going over you know what happened,
and Deckard basically says like, look like we knew this,
she was gonna be hunted forever. We knew that this
was an inevitability. So he basically said, he's like, well,
I I've never met my daughter. It was immediately realized
we had to be on the run. Now what we
do see is that, you know, he still has a
great deal of affection for her. Right, we see this
horse that Kay has been carrying around, and we see
that it's part of a set. You know, Deckard has
whittled this collection of other you know, animals, the horse,
the one he gave to his daughter U and so
basically they you know, they have this conversation where he's like, yeah,
well like sometimes you know, talking about like, you know,
in order to protect my daughter, I needed to never
interact with her, never see her, and never know anything
about her.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: Now, what we see very quickly is that, uh, you know,
the Wallace Corporation has been following k They go in
or Love does to the police station and kills madam.
It's another fascinating instance because you know, she initially the
head of the LAPD is smug. She says, oh, you know,
Carrite killed her. It's done. Love is, of course, you know,
furious with her, like you, saying like, do you have
any idea? You know, you just want you You saw
a miracle and you wanted to kill it. And as
part of that, she, you know, Love rather confronts her
and says like, oh, you think we can't lie. He
lied to you, and not only that, I'm going to
tell my boss that you tried to shoot me. And
she kills her, uses her and kind of a bizarre,
really brutal scene brings up this deceased woman's head to
you know, scan into her computer and then finds out,
you know, where K is. So they send this sort
of you know, hit team to you know, to collect
the two of them, kind of moving through some things,
they capture DECKERD seemingly kill K and as part of that,
K's which Love has remarked upon multiple times like oh,
you know you use our products, referring to Joy. He
drops this and she steps on it, killing Joy and
there's this kind of heartbreaking scene where her hologram pops
out and she's sort of diving towards K on the
ground and then is Smash is killed completely done. Uh,
Deckard is taken back to Wallace basically to try and
you know, get out of him somehow, you know, where
his his daughter is again, because you know, it's what
the you know, the owner of the company once and
Kay in the meantime, is sort of nursed back to
health by this resistance movement, which we've you know, mentioned before.
It seems as if, uh, it's not explicitly stated decord,
but certainly Rachel and the Sapper from the beginning of
this movie were connected to this resistance group. The woman
who runs it, who has uh, you know, her eye
removed so that she can't be proven to be a replicant.
I guess the code is on the bottom of the eye.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's why they don't they can replicants anymore,
because they can just check their they can just check
their cornium.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And as the original Rachel was, you know, she was
she was a prototype, so presumably she was, uh, she was,
she was the first. She was the prototype for Nexus nines,
you know, so she was kind of the is she
she was like the first of their kind, as it were.
Speaker 4: And so they basically charge k They're like, look, like,
you know, this is we're going to turn over the world,
but you need to kill Deckerd because he can't be
allowed to give this up. So he's you know pashed
back together, you know, sent back on a mission now
to get Deckerd before the kind of final climax of
the movie. Uh, there's there's one scene which is infamous.
You've seen this screenshot from this is a meme before
where Deckerd is walking across this sort of skybridge, you know,
lit and very kind of neon, you know, purple and blue,
and he sees a skyscraper sized advertisement for Joy now
again right, you know, in this context it's a you know,
very sexualized version of that. And so she's talking to him,
talking to you know, trying to basically get him to
be a customer. It's not actually the same Joy that
he knew. It's simply a talking billboard. And you know,
in addition to be obviously heartbreaking for k what's really
interesting there is, you know, when she's talking to him,
she basically says like, oh, you know, you look like
a good Joe, Joe being the name that his version
of Joy gave to him when he thought he was
special and again the tagline, you know, she tells you
whatever you want to hear, adding a kind of a
twist to that question of like is she sentient or
was this simply a particularly well developed algorithm, you know,
playing on his emotions, or he sees that that name
was built into her from the start. You know that
even a billboard has that. So that's kind of the
you know, the codea to to their relationship. It's it's
a it's a grim scene, a really grim scene.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, it's not it's not a I mean that
the film ends with.
Speaker 5: The on a hopeful message and you know, like I
said too, like Wallace was even isn't even really a
villain and you know, in universal terms, but yeah, it is.
It's it's definitely, uh, it's it's definitely a tragedy.
Speaker 4: Well, and it's important to mention. I guess I skipped
over this. I should have mentioned that. While he's talking
to this resistance leader, she even says it's like, oh,
you know, you thought you were special, like you wanted
to be the child. Well we all did, because he
he says like, oh, well there was the girl, but
there's also the boy, Like he there's the boy. Too,
and she tells him like, no, that was fake. We
did that specifically to throw people off the set.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the being rendered anonymous, I mean, that's that's what
psychologically devastating about, you know, uh, alienation within the historical
process and late modernity, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's why.
Speaker 5: Stripping people in their cultural situation, the ability to live
historically everything else aside you know it, you know, and
and the alienation from one's fellow man and their ethnos
and their race and their family and everything else. It
it renders people anonymous, you know, and that that's why
it codes this bizarre kind of narcissism into the culture.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: But so everybody's grasping its straws to for some sort
of distinction that overcomes that anonymity. And that's profound too,
you know, and very timely obviously. So yeah, that that's
a huge aspect.
Speaker 1: Of the uh of the you know, commentary and the
human condition of the film.
Speaker 4: So the before we get to kind of the the
climax of the film, we see that Deckard has been
brought back to Wallace and he's sitting you know, at
this sort of and again the arc a texture of
Wallace is wild it's sort of this you know, seventies
brutalist future, very very cool addition to anything else. But
you know, he's talking to Neander Wallace and love and
you know, there's sort of a brief back and forth,
but Wallace brings out a sort of I was gonna say,
I guess they're obviously a replicant but sort of a
copy of Rachel and basically offers this, like, I can
give you back the woman you loved, and he plays
you know, some recordings from the first film of their interaction,
you know, basically kind of questioning like, oh, like were
you were you really in love with her, which is
sort of interesting, and Deckard basically fit back in his face.
He says no, like that's that's not her. Her eyes
were green, and very dramatically, the Replicans just executed right
in front of him, and that's sort of the last
time we see you know, Wallace in the film. But
you know, now k is chase them, Decord is being
moved and and Kay you know, shoots him down and
as of yet we actually don't know if he's going
to you know, kill Decerd or something else.
Speaker 1: The sort of the.
Speaker 4: Flying car carrying him crashes on the beach right next
to this wall. You know, this sort of again repeated
motif throughout the film. H the he the drama is
sort of, you know, this plane is crashed and the
tide is coming in. You know he's going to drown,
and you know he's able to defeat you know, love
to rescue Decerd, but is mortally wounded in the process.
And you know, as he is dying, right as he's
sort of bleeding out, he takes decord to the doctor
from earlier in the movie.
Speaker 1: His daughter.
Speaker 4: We find out initially when she's introduced that this this
woman has been you know, locked in this building since
she was eight, forbidden from leaving, ostensibly for you know,
the reasons of illness. We don't actually know if that's
true or not. Is entirely possible that was just a
ruse to keep her from being discovered. But Deckard walks
in to you know, meet his daughter after twenty eight
years and kay again in a moment you have seen,
sort of lays down on the steps and bleeds out
and that's the end of the film. Before he expires,
he says, you know, Deckard, you're dead, like you died
in that crash. No one will. Everyone thinks you're gone.
You're free now. And so that is the kind of
you know, hopeful conclusion, right that you know, Deckard has
a chance at you know, life with his daughter obviously,
you know, she is a miracle. Another term that is
repeated throughout this you know kind of born of a
you know, a replicant. And yeah, that's the way the
film wraps up. I'll throw it back to you, Thomas
before we make more concluding remarks.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and the fact that Case sacrifices himself, you know
that that mirrors Roy Baddy a different way, you know,
And it's uh, it's clear that I think a lot
of people miss that because Kay is you're supposed to
associate k with Roy Batty, not with Deckard, you know.
The the only commonality of that.
Speaker 4: And that's visually something we see quite often. Like there's
multiple instances of much like the conclusion to Blade Runner
of Kay breaking through or punching through walls in a
very identical way. Uh, you know, even actually the kind
of you know, end of the you know, second act
when he's running to catch up with Deckard as he's
being dragged out and just runs straight through a wall. Right,
obviously emphasizing the fact that both that he's not human
and you know, it's sort of what we saw in
the first film. Sorry you finished that thought?
Speaker 1: Well, no, and it's no that Yeah, that's what I
was getting at.
Speaker 5: And well also to the fact that Wallace is blind,
you know, and Tyrrell lost his eyes you know, at
the hands of Roy Batty. It's very uh, but it's
not it's not derivative and it's not it's not a
corny the the ways of twenty forty nine mirrors the original.
It makes sense and you know, there's it's very sophisticated
scripting and storytelling. Again, like how the uh we'll also
compare Madam to uh, you know, the the Blade Runner
Division chief.
Speaker 1: In the original.
Speaker 5: You know, he's he's like this, he's like this alcoholic
degenerate you know, uh in this Rundown office, you know,
in things that progress in some ways but deteriorated in others.
But regardless, there actually is a there is an ethical
and sociological framework that's developed around how to handle you know,
this catastrophic disruptive technology upon which the entire social order
and everything else is based, you know, and like it's
very Hegelian, you know, in terms of how it's like
this is the world we knew and you know, nineteen
eighty two Blade Runner, it's very much you know, but
but it's very much, you know, forty years later, you know,
but it seems like a very organic development. And you know,
the diological process is has you know again devised u
an entire sociological paradigm, you know, around the reality of
of of this replicant cast, you know, in a way
that's much less ad hoc and scattershot and you know,
uh and and.
Speaker 1: And and violent.
Speaker 5: You know, that's the metaphor of the of the Sea
wall once again, you know, things are a lot more orderly,
you know. And also like the vision of wall Is,
just is just is just grander, you know, I mean,
I he's he's a better man than Tyrrell because Tyrell
wasn't a lot of ways quite villainous, I think, and
uh hebriistic, you know.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 5: Wallis's notion is uh, you know, to guide human evolution.
I mean, and that that's the way of playing got too.
But everything, everything, every every everything man does like the
first man who whittled a spear point out of a stick,
you know, altered the course of human development. You know,
there's no way that any sort of technology go innovation
and deliberate, you know, cultivation of of of a technological apparatus,
no matter how primitive or complicated, just the very act
of doing that alters the course of human development. So
you know, this idea that it's you know, man is
playing god by interfering with evolution, and that's not I mean,
that's a light way of looking at it.
Speaker 4: But especially in a world that's been is sort of
bathed in nuclear fire exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: If nothing is done, humanity will die.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's another thing too.
Speaker 5: Yeah, in Blavory world that we talked about, you know,
there's been a nuclear war and the planet is dying
and can no longer bear fruit to sustain life at
scale and you know, perpetuity.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just some final note on that. We've mentioned
that the cinematography is incredible. It's just a it's a
very pretty film. The first one also was. This one
is like a lot of villainouves. It's it's a little
more artistic, not to say anything bad about you know,
what Scott did, but it is in some ways a
little more abstract visually, but still very very good. I'll
give the nod to soundtrack to the first movie. The
second one is still quite good, but the first one
it's sort of unfair comparison, right, that's such a good soundtrack.
Speaker 2: But.
Speaker 4: Jealous, Yeah, yeah, no, they're still alive. I don't know
if he's working.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I agree, And and it was. It was
a good soundtrack in twenty four nine, don't get be wrong,
but it's not. It's not as iconic and and and
just top notch as the original.
Speaker 1: But that's a tough act to follow.
Speaker 4: And then additionally, uh, visually, the film does quite a
good job, as you've said, sort of both indicating that
technological progress has happened. It feels as if that is
continuing at pace. But it is not sort of your average,
you know, blue sci fi. It is still very much
in the kind of you know, analog and closely derived
from analog technological technology of of the setting.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I really have nothing bad to say about the film.
It is worth seeing. I think that a lot of
the complaints about it being sort of a low effort
reboot are unwarranted. There were many and still are you know,
I'm obviously you know, every other kind of legacy property,
your film from that era has been rebooted and kind
of made worse. In this case, it is not really
a reboot. It is very much still in seql territory.
You I wouldn't say it entirely stands on its own.
You do need to have seen the first one. But
it is still a very very good film and it
is not in any way sort of cheap or cashing
in on you know that that kind of nostalgia for
the previous film.
Speaker 5: It's a story people either forget or they don't know.
There was a whole bunch of.
Speaker 1: There was.
Speaker 5: There's a few novel sequels to Blade Runner the movie,
some of which were good, some are not so good.
Speaker 1: There's a really dope.
Speaker 5: PC video game in the nineties called Blade Runner The
Edge of Human There's been all kinds of world building
and you know, uh, sci fi novel sequels and stuff
to Blade Runner and stuff they used to pop up
and like science fiction magazines like fan fiction.
Speaker 1: But that was well done. You know, this site, it's not.
You can't compare this to one of these bullshit reboots
that's you know, just like a Rekwel or something like it. Doesn't.
Speaker 5: This has been long and coming. It very much respects
the sourceman Cereal. It very much advances the story, you know,
and it's it's something that everybody knew would come to
pass eventually when there was you know, the motivation and
the capital investment and the right man at the helm
to make it come to pass. So, yeah, that's a
bullshit claim when people drop it or suggest that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it continues, you know, as we've said, kind
of around the the discussion. It expands the discussion around memory.
Whereas before, you know, it is obviously there are human
memories and then there are those who do not know
that they are not human whose memories have been put
in them. Well, in the case of k we have,
you know, both a man who knows that he is fake,
suspecting that he is not finding out that some of
his memories are real, they're not synthetic, they're just someone else's.
And then again with Joy, right, it's that you know,
if you start out completely programmed, but a crew memories,
but a crew experience, does that sold you. It's it's
really interesting and as you've said before, right, the kind
of reverse image of you know, first wondering you know,
am I am I real? And then if I am fake,
can am I human? It's obviously using an exact language there.
It's really fascinating. It's it's almost required viewing, and there's
a reason it's so popular kind of in our circles.
But Thomas, I think we're probably hitting time. We can
find your stuff obviously on substack, on your website. I'll
be sure to link both of those. I think you
and I probably owe the people an episode of Radio
Free Chicago, So who knows, maybe we get that out
this week, maybe we don't. I highly recommend that check
Thomas's stuff out as far as my stuff, Jay Burden Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
anywhere you listen to podcasts. I was just doing some
some sort of tabulation on kind of how things have grown,
and it's gone really well. So I appreciate you guys
for supporting me. That the patrons, the guys who pay
me a few bucks a month, you guys are the
reason I can do this. Really helped. I appreciate it.
You're interested in joining, you can have her head over
to gum Road, substack or Patreon. Get the episodes early
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but I've got a mortgage, so sorry, it's sort of
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Remote Fitness Coaching. Thomas, thank you so much, man, This
was a really great conversation and I enjoyed this film
a lot.
Speaker 1: Man. Yeah, thank you, buddy. I appreciate you.
Speaker 4: Actually, you know, I'm going to cite something specific that
we should check out of yours. You've done two episodes
now with my friend Andy Edwards. Those episodes are great.
I just finished Edward's first book, House of not House
of Dog excuse me, King of domas earlier this week
and really really enjoyed it. So check out his interview
there on his substack. It's well worth your time again, Thomas, Man,
it was done fun, ton of fun talking to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Likewise ever at home, keep your head up? Why can't
last forever? Good night?
Speaker 3: What what?
Speaker 2: But mhm