WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.120 With the Lucky land Slots, you can get lucky just 2 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:04.120 about anywhere. 3 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.799 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:09.759 weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a 5 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.080 while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's 6 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:15.720 just these cash prizes add up quick, so I suggest 7 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:17.719 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 8 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:18.879 start getting lucky. 9 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.559 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you 10 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.320 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 11 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.280 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 12 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:33.000 It is Ryan here, and I have a question for you. 13 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:35.159 What do you do when you win? 14 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:35.679 Like? 15 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:38.840 Are you at fist pumper, a wooer, a handclap or 16 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:40.679 a high fiver? I kind of like the high five. 17 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:42.479 But if you want to hone in on those winning moves, 18 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:45.759 check out Chumbuck Casino. At chumbacasino dot com, choose some 19 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:48.479 hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to 20 00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:52.280 redeem serious cash prizes. There are new game releases weekly, 21 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:55.240 plus free daily bonuses, so don't wait. Start having the 22 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:58.039 most fun ever. At Chumbuck Casino dot com. 23 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:00.799 We're just necessary Dally Revoidmber everyboy loss comes to conditions beating. 24 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:11.200 Plus, you are now listening to True Murder, The most 25 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:14.599 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 26 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:20.879 have written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK 27 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:25.599 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 28 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:29.879 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 29 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:33.319 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:45.359 Good evening, Under a Cold Moon is the extraordinary true 31 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:48.920 story of a man that devastated two worlds, a killer 32 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:51.319 that used the chump card as his cover for two 33 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:54.840 brutal murders. His first victim lay under the rocks for 34 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:58.599 fifteen nights, his second lay under the dirt for sixty one. 35 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:04.120 Two women, two murders, one spurned slayer. In this cool tale, 36 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:06.959 the author exposes the dark secrets of a man that 37 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:10.719 stalked older women lay them. Weaves this story from an 38 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:13.520 insider's window, a writer that was in the thick of 39 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:17.639 things and interviewed the man behind these two cataclysmic homicides. 40 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:20.680 The book that we're featuring this evening is Under a 41 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:25.120 Cold Moon, a chronicle of an Unrequited killer. With my 42 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:26.800 special guest, Tony H. 43 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:29.479 Laytham. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much 44 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:31.240 for this interview. Tony H. 45 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:34.439 Laytham, Dan, I'm quite pleased to be here. This is 46 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:37.000 an order a great crime podcast. 47 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:39.439 Thank you so much, Thank you so much for that. 48 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:43.800 Congratulations on this incredible book. Let's start off first with 49 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:48.039 as you do, right to the incredible event that happens 50 00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:54.000 November seventh and a call to the sheriff dispatch in North. 51 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:58.800 Fork, Salmon, Idaho. Yes, yeah, so it's occurred in North Fork, Idaho, 52 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:02.719 which is a tiny little burg of the sense that 53 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:05.000 says the population of one hundred and fifty, but really 54 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:07.479 only ten people or so lived there at the time. 55 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:11.800 Very remote country. Three hours to the nearest walmart, two 56 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:16.199 hours to the nearest package of men's underwear, thirty minutes 57 00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:19.680 to the county seat of two thousand, three thousand, and 58 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:24.000 nothing but for a service ground around there. And that 59 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:27.159 morning a guy that was seventy six years old went 60 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:30.879 down to where his wife ran a bar and kind 61 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:34.080 of a small eatery seven miles away from his place. 62 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:36.479 And he did this every morning. He'd go down there, 63 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:39.400 have coffee with her, and then he'd go do whatever 64 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:41.000 you do that day. And then he'd come back for 65 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:44.560 dinner there spend a little time with his wife, Nancy, 66 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:47.840 And they lived apart like that because she was an 67 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:51.759 extrovert and ran that bar till midnight or so. And 68 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:56.280 he had a lodge seven miles away where he lived, 69 00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:00.479 and they had five adult kids. They had run several 70 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:05.199 successful businesses, they had some money. And that morning, on 71 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:08.879 the seventh of November, he got there to have breakfast 72 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:12.080 in coffee with his wife and she was missing. She 73 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:15.159 was gone, and there's nothing amiss there at this place 74 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:18.879 called the River's Fork Inn. So he calls the sheriff's 75 00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:22.480 office all upset. His voice was quick, quivering, and explained 76 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:25.720 what was going on. And when he called the sheriff's office, 77 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:28.399 people need to understand that this sheriff's office at that 78 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:32.639 time still is god awful small. There were six patrol 79 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:36.000 officers that covered the whole nine yards in a huge 80 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:39.639 county the size of New Jersey, and so it was 81 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:43.040 six officers. From time to time. There'd normally be one 82 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:47.199 deputy on board for each shift, and then the sheriff 83 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:49.480 and the chief deputy. And the only people that were 84 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:52.600 available that morning when Cliff called was the sheriff and 85 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:55.199 the chief deputy. So they couldn't believe what they're here in. 86 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:58.600 A seventy four year old business woman with a family 87 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:02.040 disappears in a n So they ran up there. They 88 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.360 get up there, there's eight inches of fresh snow on 89 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:07.000 the ground. Her car is still sitting out front with 90 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:10.160 eight inches of snow on it, and there's Cliff, one 91 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:13.240 of his sons, and his brother in law, and they're 92 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:17.439 all upset because Nancy's missing, and they look around. There's 93 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:19.920 the money from the till that's still there where she 94 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.680 was counting the money that night. Her bed's kind of 95 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:24.839 tussled up and it didn't look so left in the 96 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:27.600 only thing missing was the Nancy Cummings. 97 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.279 What was your occupation and what was your connection to 98 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:34.800 this area? And as we find out to this story, so. 99 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:38.920 I was an Idaho conservation officer, a game warden, and 100 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:41.399 I think most of your listeners are going to understand 101 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:44.759 what a game organ does. But we chase poachers, and 102 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:49.079 in Idaho, game wardens have the same statutory or powers 103 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:52.000 police powers as the Idaho State Police do. But the 104 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:55.439 primary focus, of course is on poachers wildlife crimes. 105 00:05:55.759 --> 00:06:00.319 Now, what happens in this investigation with the Sheriff's at 106 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:05.519 Barseloo and Chief Deputy Sam Slavin, what's their approach, what's 107 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.800 their next step and who do they speak to and 108 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:13.560 very quickly what person of an interest is alerted to them. 109 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:16.079 Well, you know, initially there was just no evidence of 110 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:19.279 a crime. Just suddenly this woman is missing, a type 111 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:22.319 of woman, you know, a family woman, a businesswoman that 112 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.680 just shouldn't be missing, but no evidence of a crime. 113 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:27.800 You know, there was one door that was open on 114 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:31.360 the inn, unlocked. And in this tiny little town of 115 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:34.560 North Fork, there's only two businesses, this Rivers Fork In 116 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:38.120 plus the North Fork Cafe, and that's basically it. And 117 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:42.000 Nancy is the only employee of the Rivers Fork In. 118 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:44.639 So they go over to the North Fork Cafe one 119 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:47.839 hundred and fifty yards away and start talking to people. 120 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:50.240 And one of the guys, one of the workers there, 121 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.519 a guy named of Harmon, said, you know, you ought 122 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:56.160 to go talk to Eddie Hotel. He lives up the 123 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:59.959 North Fork here, And so Sam Slaban drives up there, 124 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:04.319 the search and rescue member and finds Ed Hurtel. He's 125 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:08.040 twenty nine years old. He's looks and acts a little 126 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:12.120 goofy because he suffered from feed alcohol centiment birth, so 127 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:15.680 he had a wandering right eye and he had a stutter, 128 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:19.839 and he gets defancied right off the start with those guys. 129 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:23.879 And his first response back to Deputy Slaven was well, 130 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:26.199 what do you think happened to her? Which was, you know, 131 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:29.360 it's not a normal answer to a question of what 132 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.959 do you know? And what Edhurteil said during that very 133 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:36.920 informal interview was I worked last night. I never saw Nancy. 134 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:39.360 I wasn't over at the end. And that's kind of 135 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:41.560 where it sat for a little bit that day. 136 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:46.720 Now they have to investigate Cliff, obviously, people close to Nancy. 137 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:50.240 So in pursuit of that, what do they find out 138 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:53.680 about Cliff and the status of the relationship between him 139 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:57.319 and Nancy? You right about what their plans were following 140 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:00.839 this date, in a couple of weeks, what their plans 141 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:02.240 were for both of them. 142 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:05.000 They were going to retire. They bought a motor home, 143 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:07.240 and they were going to head south, get out of 144 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:10.079 the Idaho winters and head south and spend a great 145 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:13.639 winter in Arizona where it was warmed. And this all 146 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:17.160 came crashing together, and so you know even that morning, 147 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:20.720 Barslow was scucum enough to realize that you got to 148 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:23.639 look in close before you start widening the circle. And 149 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:27.040 he sat down with Cliff in the End that morning 150 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:29.680 and ask him if there was something going on, and 151 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:33.639 had Cliff explain this marriage where one's living at the 152 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.279 end and the other one's living up the other lodge 153 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:39.759 seven miles away. And Cliff explained all that, and Cliff agreed, 154 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:42.200 if I got to if I have to take a polygraph, 155 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:44.519 I don't have a problem with that. And Cliff promised 156 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:47.440 Barshallow at that time there wasn't anything else a miss 157 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:49.039 going on between the relationship. 158 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:51.320 Now, at the same time, he had a pretty good 159 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.440 alibi in that he had a fellow, his brother in 160 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:55.120 law with. 161 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:58.440 Him, He had Nancy's brother that was staying with him, 162 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:02.480 and so order for Cliff to have committed this thing, 163 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:04.919 Cliff Wood had a snuck out of his place in 164 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.440 the middle of the night, driven down there and did 165 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:11.480 the dirty deed and got back home. And yeah, yeah, Now. 166 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:15.000 With in terms of ed Heurtel, they have some information 167 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:19.440 and obviously what he says is his first statements. Now 168 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:22.320 they also find out how he comes to be in 169 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.639 the area, and then Leo Noak and his wife so 170 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:28.279 tell us how he ends up being there in the 171 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:33.159 first place, and then the evolving story of Eddie Hertel Well. 172 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:37.080 About five months prior to this incident, Leo Noak and 173 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.840 Edward tel and Noak's family were living in Grand Junction, Colorado, 174 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:45.600 and they met at miss Christian Identity movement, which in 175 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:49.799 my opinion is an odd duck. What Christian identity is 176 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:54.279 is those people believe that Adam and Eve had their offspring, 177 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:59.320 but then Eve also had offspring from the serpent. In 178 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:04.440 the offspring from Adam were the Aryan people, including Jesus Christ, 179 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:08.720 and that the people from that derived from the Serpent 180 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:13.440 and Eve were what they would call mud people, blacks, Mexicans, 181 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:16.320 anybody with any skin color, and so it was a 182 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:21.000 Christian identity is a very extreme racious movement. That same 183 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:24.279 concept is in the KKK and that sort of thing, 184 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:29.240 and they're very into the Second Coming apocalyptic stuff, and 185 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:32.320 along goes with that is malicious stuff. And in this 186 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:35.960 Christian Identity movement that the Noaks and her Tail were 187 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:40.360 involved in the witnesses that had been there, they characterized 188 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:43.600 it as more of a militia than origin, all religion. 189 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:46.480 All of the males were side arms, so it was 190 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.919 a strange mix. And Noaks and Nertel moved to Idaho 191 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:53.799 because the wrong kind of people were moving to Grand Junction, 192 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:55.639 i e. People of color. 193 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:59.720 Now with this Noak and his relationship with Eddie Hotel, 194 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:03.759 the thing is he overhears a conversation that Eddie Hertel 195 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:07.399 has with someone, and then from there wants to take 196 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:11.440 him to the sheriff because he has heard Eddie under 197 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:13.919 a lie tell us about this occurrence. 198 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:17.360 Urtail's a friend that he was living on the same 199 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:20.480 property with Leo. Noak drove down to North Fork find 200 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:23.120 out what's going on. He finds it out that Eddie 201 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:26.159 hadn't been working that night and that it was obviously 202 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:29.720 he'd listened to Hertel lie to the deputy about what 203 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.279 had gone on. So he goes home, grabs her Tail, 204 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.240 brings him back to north Fork, the center of this activity, 205 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:38.639 and brings him forth to Deputy Slaven and says, you've 206 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:41.600 got to tell you got to tell slave in the truth. Well, 207 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.039 Deputy Slaven puts him in his truck and finds out 208 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.399 now that ed Hurteil has changed his story and said, 209 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:49.960 I didn't work last night, and yes, I was the 210 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:54.559 River's fork In drinking Margarita's until it closed. And then 211 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:57.639 he said he drove around till four o'clock in the morning, 212 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:00.080 five o'clock in the morning and read a book for 213 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:03.039 a little while, and all during this storm that was 214 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:05.559 just going crazy. It was eight inches the fresh no 215 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:06.159 that night. 216 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:09.240 So how do they sort of trying to counter the 217 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:12.879 police forensically, what kind of luck do they have in 218 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:17.600 terms of the usual prince hair, fiber, blood spatter and 219 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:21.159 searches of his vehicle? How do they progress with that 220 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:23.799 any luck? And he clues any leads. 221 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:28.200 Well, that was a main major problem with that investigation 222 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.720 is there was other than looking around the North Fork 223 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:35.200 in the Rivers fork In, there was nothing really done. 224 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:38.919 It wasn't lockdown or anything like that. It was a 225 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:43.480 major regret of the sheriff. And after that second interview 226 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.759 where Slaven finds out the Hertel had been over at 227 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:49.039 the end, he grabs another depth and they go up 228 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:51.879 and they do a kind of a cursory look at 229 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:55.240 Hertel's car and come up with more or less nothing 230 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:57.679 other than some knives and a hatchet. But they didn't 231 00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:01.519 notice any blood or anything or any other signs that 232 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:03.919 card been associated with a crime. 233 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:07.399 Now, many of these stories that I've read and I've 234 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.919 featured on the program have involved people coming forward and 235 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:16.080 those namely being psychics. And as you write, the police 236 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:19.440 are obliged to follow up the leads that would be 237 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:23.360 generated from these. Whatever the psychics report. 238 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:26.799 They absolutely are. And the reason they're obliged to follow up, 239 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:31.320 whether they believe in any possibility of that paranormal or whatever, 240 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.200 is that you don't know that a person doesn't call 241 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:38.639 in and say I know where body is because I've 242 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:41.399 had this vision, and in reality they know where the 243 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:43.960 body is because their husband told them where it is, 244 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:47.200 or something along that line. But there were numerous psychics 245 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:51.200 that called in, contacted the Sheriff's office, and they chased 246 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:52.720 them down. They had to chase them down. 247 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:57.360 Now, tell our audience how you come to be involved 248 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:02.279 inextricably in this case. What are the conditions and the 249 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:06.519 situation where you find yourself tasks to go talk to 250 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:07.399 Ed Hotel. 251 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:12.440 Well, on that morning, I was up chasing wildlife. I 252 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.360 was up patrolling for elk hunters, looking for somebody that 253 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.440 maybe had gone across the line and broken a law. 254 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:21.879 And I keep hearing on the radio something about some 255 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.360 activity at North Fork, and I originally thought it was 256 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:26.440 probably a car wreck, and then I heard the word 257 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:29.799 search come across my radio. So at that point in time, 258 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:31.879 I thought it was a lost hunter, which made sense 259 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:34.919 because of the storm. Hunters get lost in that country, 260 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:37.080 and I always felt it was part of my job 261 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.200 to go help with those searches. So I come off 262 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.559 the mountain and come down to the local volunteer fire 263 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:44.320 department where they'd set up a command post. And that's 264 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.960 when I was told that Anti Cummings a person I knew, 265 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.759 certainly knew Cliff comings. I knew that she was missing. 266 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:54.559 In fact, I lived less than a mile away from 267 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.320 where it happened. And that's when I sat down with 268 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:01.840 Depth diy Shlavean and Brett Barshall, and they requested my assistance. 269 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:06.039 So why did they think they thought you might have 270 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:07.759 a rapport with him, because you had spoke to him 271 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:08.440 a couple of times. 272 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.440 So tell us about the interaction itself. 273 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:15.039 Well, you know, as I've said, north Fork is an 274 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:18.519 extremely small place, so I knew who ed hurtail was 275 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:20.600 I knew who Lee know it was, even though they'd 276 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:23.200 only been there five months and a couple of times 277 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:26.080 while I'd been in the North Fork Cafe having breakfast 278 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:29.039 or dinner or whatever it was ed hotel that worked 279 00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:32.960 there as a dishwasher, and janetor that approached me. We're 280 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:36.159 in my fishing game uniform, and on two different occasions 281 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:39.840 asked me the same question about recovering the road kill 282 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:42.720 animals for food, and I gave him the same answer. 283 00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:45.039 At the time it wasn't legal, and he didn't like 284 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.559 the answer, but that was the way it was. And 285 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:51.200 so Sheriff Barcelow and his deputy slave and were just 286 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:54.240 grasping at straws and they were hoping I had some 287 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:57.320 kind of rapport with this guy, which I didn't consider 288 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.360 that I did, But they asked me to go interview guy. 289 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:03.080 And by this time it was it was dark, and 290 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:06.840 I grabbed a US four service officer and went over 291 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:10.279 and found him, and he was in the kitchen at 292 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:12.799 the time. We asked to talk to him, and he's 293 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:15.720 got this big bag of garbage over us back, big 294 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:19.360 garbage sect. We go outside. He throws the garbage into 295 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:24.279 this big open dumpster and I told him that we 296 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:27.559 were looking for information about Nancy and she was missing 297 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.679 and all that, and we'd heard he'd been over at 298 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.559 the end, and he instantly got defensive. I hadn't accused 299 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:36.240 him anything, far from it, and that set up a 300 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:40.240 big red flag and he got all nervous and it 301 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:43.159 just didn't make sense. Now I didn't know this guy 302 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:45.440 had met him the two times, so I didn't know 303 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:49.120 if this was a normal reaction he had with officers 304 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:51.240 or what. But it just didn't make sense. And I 305 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:54.159 kept trying to drag him back to ED help us 306 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:56.799 out here, you know, what was going on there, And 307 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.159 he said there was a bunch of cowboys in there. 308 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:03.840 And we're going along and he keeps getting defensive, and 309 00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:06.519 he says, I didn't do nothing to her, you know, 310 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:10.359 we're not accusing him of any harm. And so I'm 311 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:13.640 just really scratching my head on this thing. And I 312 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:17.759 see some headlights bobbing in the back ground in the darkness, 313 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:20.839 and pretty soon a gal brings a dog up, and 314 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.480 the dog's got an orange vest on, and she's wearing 315 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:25.920 an orange vest and I knew they had search dogs, 316 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.680 cadaver dogs working out back along the river down there, 317 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:33.440 and the next thing I know, that cadaver dog came up, 318 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:38.160 stuck his nose in ed Hortail's crotch, and sat down. 319 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:41.519 And I was just stunned because I'd worked around a 320 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:44.000 lot of drug dogs, but I'd never worked around a 321 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:47.319 cadaver dog. And I was just so stunned because I 322 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.160 thought maybe this dog had just alerted on this guy. 323 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.119 And then her tail turns to me and says, these 324 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.119 are the same clothes I had on last night. He 325 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.720 looks away into the darkness. He looks back and says, 326 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:01.839 and she touched my but she didn't get in. Then 327 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:06.119 another dog handler comes up, talks to this first dog handler, 328 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:08.680 puts his dog up there, and that dog does the 329 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:14.160 same damn thing. Sixty snows and Edgertail's crotch sits down. 330 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:18.240 And at some point in time this conversation, Ortel blurted 331 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:22.000 out this biblical thing about a pale horse. And I 332 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:25.720 didn't understand what the heck that was until later. But 333 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:30.799 in the Bible there's there's some reference to death writing 334 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:34.759 a pale horse, and I still scratch my head on 335 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:38.480 all that. But so I'm getting basically nowhere with this 336 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:42.119 interview other than his paranoia and his claims that he 337 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:44.799 didn't do anything to this person that we don't know 338 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:47.759 had been armed. And I began to realize that this 339 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:51.079 guy knew a lot more about what had happened. That's 340 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:53.480 my belief at this point in time, than what he 341 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.880 was saying or what we knew. And the problem I 342 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:02.279 had with this was a Miranda issue, and Miranda falls 343 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:05.559 into it comes up comes into play when you've got 344 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:09.480 two things going. Number one, you're questioning a suspect about 345 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:13.759 a crime, and two he feels he's in custody right now. 346 00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:17.279 Under normal circumstances in the back of the outside a 347 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.240 building like this, this court would not determine that this 348 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.039 was a custodial environment. But the guy, the way the 349 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:26.000 guy was acting, he just didn't seem all there, didn't 350 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.240 seem like his gears were quite meshing. You'd ask him 351 00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:30.519 a question, there'd be a long pause, and it wasn't 352 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:32.279 like he was trying to make up an answer. I 353 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:34.440 think his things just weren't clipping for him. So I 354 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:38.279 seriously doubted whether he had a normal IQ. And I 355 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.240 realized that I felt that as if he if we 356 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:46.480 got any real inculpatory statement from him that he admitted 357 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:49.200 to it or could fast or whatever, it wouldn't hold 358 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.440 up in court. And I realized that if I read 359 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:55.640 him his miranda right there and he didn't understand Dan 360 00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:59.839 his miranda again, whatever he said would not hold up 361 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:03.039 in court. So I backed off. And that's one of 362 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:06.319 my career regrets, is not reaching into his guts and 363 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:09.319 pulling a confession out. Because the guy was with author 364 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:12.519 John Perry. He thought her Tail was about ready to confess, 365 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:16.279 and so instead I walked away, And it's one of 366 00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:18.240 my career regrets. It was a tough thing to do. 367 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:22.839 So you decide to go get Chief Deputy Slavin and 368 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.000 let him handle it. So how does he handle it? 369 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:26.559 Verta? 370 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.920 Well? I went back, We went back and briefed Barcelona's 371 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:33.160 lavin about this whole thing, and the next day they 372 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:35.599 still focused on trying to find the body. I mean, 373 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:40.559 they definitely thought her Tail was as culpable as I 374 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.039 thought he was. And within a few days they brought 375 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:47.960 in Idle State Police Bureau of Investigations to do a 376 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:53.359 polygraph on hotel, and during that interview, Hertel became so nervous. 377 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.680 A polygraph wasn't going to work. He got too emotional. 378 00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:59.720 At one point in time, he went in the bathroom 379 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.920 where this interview was taking place and started throwing up. 380 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:07.160 He was that disturbed. And when he finally came back in, 381 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:12.680 the detective Stimpson asking him, led, tell me what you 382 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:16.680 think happened here, And after a long time, maybe a minute, 383 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.519 he came up with his story that he'd been driving 384 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:22.079 on the highway and he looked over at the north 385 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:25.480 fork in the Rivers Fork in and he saw Cliff's 386 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:29.440 truck backed up to this door ninety degrees to his view, 387 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:34.240 and saw Cliff pulling her body into the pickup truck, 388 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:37.960 wrapped in a sheet. So the whole investigation shift at 389 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:38.839 that point in time. 390 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:44.599 Yeah, it does, you right though, that there is another interview, 391 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.920 the fourth interview, and again it looks very very promising. 392 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:52.240 In fact, they think again that he's ready to confess, 393 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:55.880 and then his sister comes in and then what happens. 394 00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:59.759 Yeah, So that was done the day before this polygraph 395 00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:03.359 had been set up, and that was with Deputy Nan Coolis, 396 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:07.400 a female officer, and Barcelo felt that maybe he'd be 397 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:09.559 more willing to talk to a female officer and things 398 00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:13.319 were going real good there on That thing wasn't getting 399 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:16.160 in a lot of different information, but she got even 400 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:19.480 to talk about worry driven that night and several other details. 401 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:22.519