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Speaker 4: Plus, you are now listening to True Murder, The most
Speaker 4: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 4: have written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK
Speaker 4: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 4: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 4: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 5: Good evening, Under a Cold Moon is the extraordinary true
Speaker 5: story of a man that devastated two worlds, a killer
Speaker 5: that used the chump card as his cover for two
Speaker 5: brutal murders. His first victim lay under the rocks for
Speaker 5: fifteen nights, his second lay under the dirt for sixty one.
Speaker 5: Two women, two murders, one spurned slayer. In this cool tale,
Speaker 5: the author exposes the dark secrets of a man that
Speaker 5: stalked older women lay them. Weaves this story from an
Speaker 5: insider's window, a writer that was in the thick of
Speaker 5: things and interviewed the man behind these two cataclysmic homicides.
Speaker 5: The book that we're featuring this evening is Under a
Speaker 5: Cold Moon, a chronicle of an Unrequited killer. With my
Speaker 5: special guest, Tony H.
Speaker 6: Laytham. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much
Speaker 6: for this interview. Tony H.
Speaker 7: Laytham, Dan, I'm quite pleased to be here. This is
Speaker 7: an order a great crime podcast.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Thank you so much for that.
Speaker 5: Congratulations on this incredible book. Let's start off first with
Speaker 5: as you do, right to the incredible event that happens
Speaker 5: November seventh and a call to the sheriff dispatch in North.
Speaker 7: Fork, Salmon, Idaho. Yes, yeah, so it's occurred in North Fork, Idaho,
Speaker 7: which is a tiny little burg of the sense that
Speaker 7: says the population of one hundred and fifty, but really
Speaker 7: only ten people or so lived there at the time.
Speaker 7: Very remote country. Three hours to the nearest walmart, two
Speaker 7: hours to the nearest package of men's underwear, thirty minutes
Speaker 7: to the county seat of two thousand, three thousand, and
Speaker 7: nothing but for a service ground around there. And that
Speaker 7: morning a guy that was seventy six years old went
Speaker 7: down to where his wife ran a bar and kind
Speaker 7: of a small eatery seven miles away from his place.
Speaker 7: And he did this every morning. He'd go down there,
Speaker 7: have coffee with her, and then he'd go do whatever
Speaker 7: you do that day. And then he'd come back for
Speaker 7: dinner there spend a little time with his wife, Nancy,
Speaker 7: And they lived apart like that because she was an
Speaker 7: extrovert and ran that bar till midnight or so. And
Speaker 7: he had a lodge seven miles away where he lived,
Speaker 7: and they had five adult kids. They had run several
Speaker 7: successful businesses, they had some money. And that morning, on
Speaker 7: the seventh of November, he got there to have breakfast
Speaker 7: in coffee with his wife and she was missing. She
Speaker 7: was gone, and there's nothing amiss there at this place
Speaker 7: called the River's Fork Inn. So he calls the sheriff's
Speaker 7: office all upset. His voice was quick, quivering, and explained
Speaker 7: what was going on. And when he called the sheriff's office,
Speaker 7: people need to understand that this sheriff's office at that
Speaker 7: time still is god awful small. There were six patrol
Speaker 7: officers that covered the whole nine yards in a huge
Speaker 7: county the size of New Jersey, and so it was
Speaker 7: six officers. From time to time. There'd normally be one
Speaker 7: deputy on board for each shift, and then the sheriff
Speaker 7: and the chief deputy. And the only people that were
Speaker 7: available that morning when Cliff called was the sheriff and
Speaker 7: the chief deputy. So they couldn't believe what they're here in.
Speaker 7: A seventy four year old business woman with a family
Speaker 7: disappears in a n So they ran up there. They
Speaker 7: get up there, there's eight inches of fresh snow on
Speaker 7: the ground. Her car is still sitting out front with
Speaker 7: eight inches of snow on it, and there's Cliff, one
Speaker 7: of his sons, and his brother in law, and they're
Speaker 7: all upset because Nancy's missing, and they look around. There's
Speaker 7: the money from the till that's still there where she
Speaker 7: was counting the money that night. Her bed's kind of
Speaker 7: tussled up and it didn't look so left in the
Speaker 7: only thing missing was the Nancy Cummings.
Speaker 5: What was your occupation and what was your connection to
Speaker 5: this area? And as we find out to this story, so.
Speaker 7: I was an Idaho conservation officer, a game warden, and
Speaker 7: I think most of your listeners are going to understand
Speaker 7: what a game organ does. But we chase poachers, and
Speaker 7: in Idaho, game wardens have the same statutory or powers
Speaker 7: police powers as the Idaho State Police do. But the
Speaker 7: primary focus, of course is on poachers wildlife crimes.
Speaker 5: Now, what happens in this investigation with the Sheriff's at
Speaker 5: Barseloo and Chief Deputy Sam Slavin, what's their approach, what's
Speaker 5: their next step and who do they speak to and
Speaker 5: very quickly what person of an interest is alerted to them.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, initially there was just no evidence of
Speaker 7: a crime. Just suddenly this woman is missing, a type
Speaker 7: of woman, you know, a family woman, a businesswoman that
Speaker 7: just shouldn't be missing, but no evidence of a crime.
Speaker 7: You know, there was one door that was open on
Speaker 7: the inn, unlocked. And in this tiny little town of
Speaker 7: North Fork, there's only two businesses, this Rivers Fork In
Speaker 7: plus the North Fork Cafe, and that's basically it. And
Speaker 7: Nancy is the only employee of the Rivers Fork In.
Speaker 7: So they go over to the North Fork Cafe one
Speaker 7: hundred and fifty yards away and start talking to people.
Speaker 7: And one of the guys, one of the workers there,
Speaker 7: a guy named of Harmon, said, you know, you ought
Speaker 7: to go talk to Eddie Hotel. He lives up the
Speaker 7: North Fork here, And so Sam Slaban drives up there,
Speaker 7: the search and rescue member and finds Ed Hurtel. He's
Speaker 7: twenty nine years old. He's looks and acts a little
Speaker 7: goofy because he suffered from feed alcohol centiment birth, so
Speaker 7: he had a wandering right eye and he had a stutter,
Speaker 7: and he gets defancied right off the start with those guys.
Speaker 7: And his first response back to Deputy Slaven was well,
Speaker 7: what do you think happened to her? Which was, you know,
Speaker 7: it's not a normal answer to a question of what
Speaker 7: do you know? And what Edhurteil said during that very
Speaker 7: informal interview was I worked last night. I never saw Nancy.
Speaker 7: I wasn't over at the end. And that's kind of
Speaker 7: where it sat for a little bit that day.
Speaker 5: Now they have to investigate Cliff, obviously, people close to Nancy.
Speaker 5: So in pursuit of that, what do they find out
Speaker 5: about Cliff and the status of the relationship between him
Speaker 5: and Nancy? You right about what their plans were following
Speaker 5: this date, in a couple of weeks, what their plans
Speaker 5: were for both of them.
Speaker 7: They were going to retire. They bought a motor home,
Speaker 7: and they were going to head south, get out of
Speaker 7: the Idaho winters and head south and spend a great
Speaker 7: winter in Arizona where it was warmed. And this all
Speaker 7: came crashing together, and so you know even that morning,
Speaker 7: Barslow was scucum enough to realize that you got to
Speaker 7: look in close before you start widening the circle. And
Speaker 7: he sat down with Cliff in the End that morning
Speaker 7: and ask him if there was something going on, and
Speaker 7: had Cliff explain this marriage where one's living at the
Speaker 7: end and the other one's living up the other lodge
Speaker 7: seven miles away. And Cliff explained all that, and Cliff agreed,
Speaker 7: if I got to if I have to take a polygraph,
Speaker 7: I don't have a problem with that. And Cliff promised
Speaker 7: Barshallow at that time there wasn't anything else a miss
Speaker 7: going on between the relationship.
Speaker 5: Now, at the same time, he had a pretty good
Speaker 5: alibi in that he had a fellow, his brother in
Speaker 5: law with.
Speaker 7: Him, He had Nancy's brother that was staying with him,
Speaker 7: and so order for Cliff to have committed this thing,
Speaker 7: Cliff Wood had a snuck out of his place in
Speaker 7: the middle of the night, driven down there and did
Speaker 7: the dirty deed and got back home. And yeah, yeah, Now.
Speaker 5: With in terms of ed Heurtel, they have some information
Speaker 5: and obviously what he says is his first statements. Now
Speaker 5: they also find out how he comes to be in
Speaker 5: the area, and then Leo Noak and his wife so
Speaker 5: tell us how he ends up being there in the
Speaker 5: first place, and then the evolving story of Eddie Hertel Well.
Speaker 7: About five months prior to this incident, Leo Noak and
Speaker 7: Edward tel and Noak's family were living in Grand Junction, Colorado,
Speaker 7: and they met at miss Christian Identity movement, which in
Speaker 7: my opinion is an odd duck. What Christian identity is
Speaker 7: is those people believe that Adam and Eve had their offspring,
Speaker 7: but then Eve also had offspring from the serpent. In
Speaker 7: the offspring from Adam were the Aryan people, including Jesus Christ,
Speaker 7: and that the people from that derived from the Serpent
Speaker 7: and Eve were what they would call mud people, blacks, Mexicans,
Speaker 7: anybody with any skin color, and so it was a
Speaker 7: Christian identity is a very extreme racious movement. That same
Speaker 7: concept is in the KKK and that sort of thing,
Speaker 7: and they're very into the Second Coming apocalyptic stuff, and
Speaker 7: along goes with that is malicious stuff. And in this
Speaker 7: Christian Identity movement that the Noaks and her Tail were
Speaker 7: involved in the witnesses that had been there, they characterized
Speaker 7: it as more of a militia than origin, all religion.
Speaker 7: All of the males were side arms, so it was
Speaker 7: a strange mix. And Noaks and Nertel moved to Idaho
Speaker 7: because the wrong kind of people were moving to Grand Junction,
Speaker 7: i e. People of color.
Speaker 5: Now with this Noak and his relationship with Eddie Hotel,
Speaker 5: the thing is he overhears a conversation that Eddie Hertel
Speaker 5: has with someone, and then from there wants to take
Speaker 5: him to the sheriff because he has heard Eddie under
Speaker 5: a lie tell us about this occurrence.
Speaker 7: Urtail's a friend that he was living on the same
Speaker 7: property with Leo. Noak drove down to North Fork find
Speaker 7: out what's going on. He finds it out that Eddie
Speaker 7: hadn't been working that night and that it was obviously
Speaker 7: he'd listened to Hertel lie to the deputy about what
Speaker 7: had gone on. So he goes home, grabs her Tail,
Speaker 7: brings him back to north Fork, the center of this activity,
Speaker 7: and brings him forth to Deputy Slaven and says, you've
Speaker 7: got to tell you got to tell slave in the truth. Well,
Speaker 7: Deputy Slaven puts him in his truck and finds out
Speaker 7: now that ed Hurteil has changed his story and said,
Speaker 7: I didn't work last night, and yes, I was the
Speaker 7: River's fork In drinking Margarita's until it closed. And then
Speaker 7: he said he drove around till four o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 7: five o'clock in the morning and read a book for
Speaker 7: a little while, and all during this storm that was
Speaker 7: just going crazy. It was eight inches the fresh no
Speaker 7: that night.
Speaker 5: So how do they sort of trying to counter the
Speaker 5: police forensically, what kind of luck do they have in
Speaker 5: terms of the usual prince hair, fiber, blood spatter and
Speaker 5: searches of his vehicle? How do they progress with that
Speaker 5: any luck? And he clues any leads.
Speaker 7: Well, that was a main major problem with that investigation
Speaker 7: is there was other than looking around the North Fork
Speaker 7: in the Rivers fork In, there was nothing really done.
Speaker 7: It wasn't lockdown or anything like that. It was a
Speaker 7: major regret of the sheriff. And after that second interview
Speaker 7: where Slaven finds out the Hertel had been over at
Speaker 7: the end, he grabs another depth and they go up
Speaker 7: and they do a kind of a cursory look at
Speaker 7: Hertel's car and come up with more or less nothing
Speaker 7: other than some knives and a hatchet. But they didn't
Speaker 7: notice any blood or anything or any other signs that
Speaker 7: card been associated with a crime.
Speaker 5: Now, many of these stories that I've read and I've
Speaker 5: featured on the program have involved people coming forward and
Speaker 5: those namely being psychics. And as you write, the police
Speaker 5: are obliged to follow up the leads that would be
Speaker 5: generated from these. Whatever the psychics report.
Speaker 7: They absolutely are. And the reason they're obliged to follow up,
Speaker 7: whether they believe in any possibility of that paranormal or whatever,
Speaker 7: is that you don't know that a person doesn't call
Speaker 7: in and say I know where body is because I've
Speaker 7: had this vision, and in reality they know where the
Speaker 7: body is because their husband told them where it is,
Speaker 7: or something along that line. But there were numerous psychics
Speaker 7: that called in, contacted the Sheriff's office, and they chased
Speaker 7: them down. They had to chase them down.
Speaker 5: Now, tell our audience how you come to be involved
Speaker 5: inextricably in this case. What are the conditions and the
Speaker 5: situation where you find yourself tasks to go talk to
Speaker 5: Ed Hotel.
Speaker 7: Well, on that morning, I was up chasing wildlife. I
Speaker 7: was up patrolling for elk hunters, looking for somebody that
Speaker 7: maybe had gone across the line and broken a law.
Speaker 7: And I keep hearing on the radio something about some
Speaker 7: activity at North Fork, and I originally thought it was
Speaker 7: probably a car wreck, and then I heard the word
Speaker 7: search come across my radio. So at that point in time,
Speaker 7: I thought it was a lost hunter, which made sense
Speaker 7: because of the storm. Hunters get lost in that country,
Speaker 7: and I always felt it was part of my job
Speaker 7: to go help with those searches. So I come off
Speaker 7: the mountain and come down to the local volunteer fire
Speaker 7: department where they'd set up a command post. And that's
Speaker 7: when I was told that Anti Cummings a person I knew,
Speaker 7: certainly knew Cliff comings. I knew that she was missing.
Speaker 7: In fact, I lived less than a mile away from
Speaker 7: where it happened. And that's when I sat down with
Speaker 7: Depth diy Shlavean and Brett Barshall, and they requested my assistance.
Speaker 5: So why did they think they thought you might have
Speaker 5: a rapport with him, because you had spoke to him
Speaker 5: a couple of times.
Speaker 6: So tell us about the interaction itself.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, as I've said, north Fork is an
Speaker 7: extremely small place, so I knew who ed hurtail was
Speaker 7: I knew who Lee know it was, even though they'd
Speaker 7: only been there five months and a couple of times
Speaker 7: while I'd been in the North Fork Cafe having breakfast
Speaker 7: or dinner or whatever it was ed hotel that worked
Speaker 7: there as a dishwasher, and janetor that approached me. We're
Speaker 7: in my fishing game uniform, and on two different occasions
Speaker 7: asked me the same question about recovering the road kill
Speaker 7: animals for food, and I gave him the same answer.
Speaker 7: At the time it wasn't legal, and he didn't like
Speaker 7: the answer, but that was the way it was. And
Speaker 7: so Sheriff Barcelow and his deputy slave and were just
Speaker 7: grasping at straws and they were hoping I had some
Speaker 7: kind of rapport with this guy, which I didn't consider
Speaker 7: that I did, But they asked me to go interview guy.
Speaker 7: And by this time it was it was dark, and
Speaker 7: I grabbed a US four service officer and went over
Speaker 7: and found him, and he was in the kitchen at
Speaker 7: the time. We asked to talk to him, and he's
Speaker 7: got this big bag of garbage over us back, big
Speaker 7: garbage sect. We go outside. He throws the garbage into
Speaker 7: this big open dumpster and I told him that we
Speaker 7: were looking for information about Nancy and she was missing
Speaker 7: and all that, and we'd heard he'd been over at
Speaker 7: the end, and he instantly got defensive. I hadn't accused
Speaker 7: him anything, far from it, and that set up a
Speaker 7: big red flag and he got all nervous and it
Speaker 7: just didn't make sense. Now I didn't know this guy
Speaker 7: had met him the two times, so I didn't know
Speaker 7: if this was a normal reaction he had with officers
Speaker 7: or what. But it just didn't make sense. And I
Speaker 7: kept trying to drag him back to ED help us
Speaker 7: out here, you know, what was going on there, And
Speaker 7: he said there was a bunch of cowboys in there.
Speaker 7: And we're going along and he keeps getting defensive, and
Speaker 7: he says, I didn't do nothing to her, you know,
Speaker 7: we're not accusing him of any harm. And so I'm
Speaker 7: just really scratching my head on this thing. And I
Speaker 7: see some headlights bobbing in the back ground in the darkness,
Speaker 7: and pretty soon a gal brings a dog up, and
Speaker 7: the dog's got an orange vest on, and she's wearing
Speaker 7: an orange vest and I knew they had search dogs,
Speaker 7: cadaver dogs working out back along the river down there,
Speaker 7: and the next thing I know, that cadaver dog came up,
Speaker 7: stuck his nose in ed Hortail's crotch, and sat down.
Speaker 7: And I was just stunned because I'd worked around a
Speaker 7: lot of drug dogs, but I'd never worked around a
Speaker 7: cadaver dog. And I was just so stunned because I
Speaker 7: thought maybe this dog had just alerted on this guy.
Speaker 7: And then her tail turns to me and says, these
Speaker 7: are the same clothes I had on last night. He
Speaker 7: looks away into the darkness. He looks back and says,
Speaker 7: and she touched my but she didn't get in. Then
Speaker 7: another dog handler comes up, talks to this first dog handler,
Speaker 7: puts his dog up there, and that dog does the
Speaker 7: same damn thing. Sixty snows and Edgertail's crotch sits down.
Speaker 7: And at some point in time this conversation, Ortel blurted
Speaker 7: out this biblical thing about a pale horse. And I
Speaker 7: didn't understand what the heck that was until later. But
Speaker 7: in the Bible there's there's some reference to death writing
Speaker 7: a pale horse, and I still scratch my head on
Speaker 7: all that. But so I'm getting basically nowhere with this
Speaker 7: interview other than his paranoia and his claims that he
Speaker 7: didn't do anything to this person that we don't know
Speaker 7: had been armed. And I began to realize that this
Speaker 7: guy knew a lot more about what had happened. That's
Speaker 7: my belief at this point in time, than what he
Speaker 7: was saying or what we knew. And the problem I
Speaker 7: had with this was a Miranda issue, and Miranda falls
Speaker 7: into it comes up comes into play when you've got
Speaker 7: two things going. Number one, you're questioning a suspect about
Speaker 7: a crime, and two he feels he's in custody right now.
Speaker 7: Under normal circumstances in the back of the outside a
Speaker 7: building like this, this court would not determine that this
Speaker 7: was a custodial environment. But the guy, the way the
Speaker 7: guy was acting, he just didn't seem all there, didn't
Speaker 7: seem like his gears were quite meshing. You'd ask him
Speaker 7: a question, there'd be a long pause, and it wasn't
Speaker 7: like he was trying to make up an answer. I
Speaker 7: think his things just weren't clipping for him. So I
Speaker 7: seriously doubted whether he had a normal IQ. And I
Speaker 7: realized that I felt that as if he if we
Speaker 7: got any real inculpatory statement from him that he admitted
Speaker 7: to it or could fast or whatever, it wouldn't hold
Speaker 7: up in court. And I realized that if I read
Speaker 7: him his miranda right there and he didn't understand Dan
Speaker 7: his miranda again, whatever he said would not hold up
Speaker 7: in court. So I backed off. And that's one of
Speaker 7: my career regrets, is not reaching into his guts and
Speaker 7: pulling a confession out. Because the guy was with author
Speaker 7: John Perry. He thought her Tail was about ready to confess,
Speaker 7: and so instead I walked away, And it's one of
Speaker 7: my career regrets. It was a tough thing to do.
Speaker 5: So you decide to go get Chief Deputy Slavin and
Speaker 5: let him handle it. So how does he handle it?
Speaker 6: Verta?
Speaker 7: Well? I went back, We went back and briefed Barcelona's
Speaker 7: lavin about this whole thing, and the next day they
Speaker 7: still focused on trying to find the body. I mean,
Speaker 7: they definitely thought her Tail was as culpable as I
Speaker 7: thought he was. And within a few days they brought
Speaker 7: in Idle State Police Bureau of Investigations to do a
Speaker 7: polygraph on hotel, and during that interview, Hertel became so nervous.
Speaker 7: A polygraph wasn't going to work. He got too emotional.
Speaker 7: At one point in time, he went in the bathroom
Speaker 7: where this interview was taking place and started throwing up.
Speaker 7: He was that disturbed. And when he finally came back in,
Speaker 7: the detective Stimpson asking him, led, tell me what you
Speaker 7: think happened here, And after a long time, maybe a minute,
Speaker 7: he came up with his story that he'd been driving
Speaker 7: on the highway and he looked over at the north
Speaker 7: fork in the Rivers Fork in and he saw Cliff's
Speaker 7: truck backed up to this door ninety degrees to his view,
Speaker 7: and saw Cliff pulling her body into the pickup truck,
Speaker 7: wrapped in a sheet. So the whole investigation shift at
Speaker 7: that point in time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it does, you right though, that there is another interview,
Speaker 5: the fourth interview, and again it looks very very promising.
Speaker 5: In fact, they think again that he's ready to confess,
Speaker 5: and then his sister comes in and then what happens.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So that was done the day before this polygraph
Speaker 7: had been set up, and that was with Deputy Nan Coolis,
Speaker 7: a female officer, and Barcelo felt that maybe he'd be
Speaker 7: more willing to talk to a female officer and things
Speaker 7: were going real good there on That thing wasn't getting
Speaker 7: in a lot of different information, but she got even
Speaker 7: to talk about worry driven that night and several other details.
Speaker 7: And then his sister comes shows up from Colorado. She
Speaker 7: wants to talk to Ed. They talking there for a bit.
Speaker 7: Then she comes out and says, Ed needs to talk
Speaker 7: to you about something, and the deputy thought, well, maybe
Speaker 7: this is it. Maybe he's going to give it up.
Speaker 7: Well she walks in and Ed says, I want an attorney.
Speaker 7: So right there that interview was done.
Speaker 5: Yeah, now this is November twenty. First, you talk about
Speaker 5: a John Staffer. He's camping at neil and Ranch site,
Speaker 5: about three quarters of a mile from North Fork in
Speaker 5: tell us what happens, what he discovers.
Speaker 7: Ironically, we call that neck of the woods down there
Speaker 7: dead water. He was camped down there and his friend
Speaker 7: were doing a little trapping in the area, and he
Speaker 7: decides he wants to walk back the North Fork a
Speaker 7: quarter mile whatever it is, to call his wife let
Speaker 7: her know what's going on. And he's walking on the
Speaker 7: on the on the roads more or less a county
Speaker 7: type road for service road, but he's walking along and
Speaker 7: it's it's dark, and a vehicle comes driving by and
Speaker 7: it starts to night blind him. So he looks away,
Speaker 7: and the headlights flash on something pink in the rocks,
Speaker 7: and so Stopford walks over, lets his night vision come back.
Speaker 7: It looks like there's something covered in rocks there, and
Speaker 7: so as the light comes back and there's this is
Speaker 7: the day after a full two weeks into a full moon.
Speaker 7: He picks up a rock and there it is a
Speaker 7: woman's foot with a sock on it. Now you know
Speaker 7: a small town like this. John Staffer knew exactly who
Speaker 7: he was looking at, but he just couldn't accept that
Speaker 7: he was looking at a frozen dead body. And after
Speaker 7: a while and will never know because he doesn't know,
Speaker 7: he said. He stood there for a long time, staring
Speaker 7: with his mouth of gape. He took off at a
Speaker 7: dead run and ran into the nearest building, which is
Speaker 7: a forest service residence about a quarter of a mile away.
Speaker 7: Knocked on the door here it is dark outside, it's cold.
Speaker 7: Knocks on this door and the for service ranger opens
Speaker 7: the door, sees this wild and crazy looking guy that's
Speaker 7: all upset. He's almost yelling, and John Stofford yells at
Speaker 7: the ranger I found her. The ranger knew exactly what
Speaker 7: he was talking about. He knew he knew that he'd
Speaker 7: found Nancy's body. So they jump in the car, run
Speaker 7: down there, and then they stand there and stare at
Speaker 7: this makeshift grave for who knows how long, just letting
Speaker 7: it just kind of a soak into their souls. Then
Speaker 7: he drove back, called the Sheriff's office and as much
Speaker 7: as is available and leve my Canning rolls out there.
Speaker 7: Slavin rolled out there. The sheriff, another deputy and dispatch
Speaker 7: called me up to go assist, and we got out
Speaker 7: there and started doing what we needed to do.
Speaker 5: Do police gain any knowledge forensically from the finding of
Speaker 5: Nancy's body? And if not, how do they proceed in
Speaker 5: investigating their main suspect at Hotel.
Speaker 7: Well that night, what was done was mainly just photographic evidence.
Speaker 7: You know, After each rock was picked up, Barcelo would
Speaker 7: take two separate cameras to make sure I was back
Speaker 7: in the days of film, to make sure that they
Speaker 7: got it. Each Each time he picked a rock up,
Speaker 7: he grabbed both cameras and take pictures until she was
Speaker 7: fully uncovered, and she was only just covered with big rocks.
Speaker 7: And once that happened, we put her in a body
Speaker 7: bag and sent her away with a corner And the
Speaker 7: next day she was shipped off to do an autopsy
Speaker 7: in Pocatel, three hours away and idled State police investigators
Speaker 7: came up and at that point in time, this is
Speaker 7: two weeks after the murder, did a comprehensive forensic search
Speaker 7: of the River's fork In and the only thing that
Speaker 7: was found on Nancy's body she was wearing a pink nightgown.
Speaker 7: She's wearing socks that were pulled down, and she had
Speaker 7: a watch on it was still running. She had a
Speaker 7: silver cross around her neck. She still had that wedding
Speaker 7: ring that Cliff had given her fifty seven years ago.
Speaker 7: And she was missing her panties, and her daughter said
Speaker 7: she always wore panties except when she was taken a bath.
Speaker 7: So that was a real suspect thing. And then at
Speaker 7: the River's fork In, the scene was clean. It had
Speaker 7: literally been cleaned by the relatives of Nancy. And you know,
Speaker 7: like in hindsight, it just digs on barshlow. They didn't
Speaker 7: lock that thing down that first morning, But in reality,
Speaker 7: even if you pulled the CSI crew out at the
Speaker 7: TV show put it in the end that morning. Even
Speaker 7: if you come up with her tail's fingerprints, if he'd
Speaker 7: come up, you know, this is pretty much pre DNA.
Speaker 7: Even if you had his DNA there, all that would
Speaker 7: prove he was there, and that was already anknown so
Speaker 7: forensically there was nothing. Now in the autopsy, they did
Speaker 7: recover a hair.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about Eddie Hortel's past and especially his history
Speaker 5: in mental institutions and also police talk to a person
Speaker 5: named Britt, and Britt tells him a few things that
Speaker 5: he claims that ed Heurtel mentioned that are a very
Speaker 5: big interest to police considering.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so ed Hortel had been in and out of
Speaker 7: mental institutions. It seems like every time he did something bad,
Speaker 7: he'd get stuck in a mental institution. He tried to
Speaker 7: commit suicide and he gets stuck in a mental institution
Speaker 7: for a little while. He'd been in and out of
Speaker 7: those things. But one of his co workers, this Brit,
Speaker 7: that he worked the same shift with her. She was
Speaker 7: a cook. He was the janitor do all laborer type
Speaker 7: and her tail thought that she was an American Indian
Speaker 7: and she wasn't. But it doesn't make any difference. She
Speaker 7: still had dark hair, her skin was a little dark,
Speaker 7: and he was suspicious that she was a minority. And
Speaker 7: several times she caught him to where he thought she
Speaker 7: thought he was stalking her. He hated Jews, he hated blacks,
Speaker 7: any buddy of color. So the other thing that Britt
Speaker 7: caught him doing one night, but she went outside and
Speaker 7: here's Eddie her tail with a cat under his arm
Speaker 7: and he's strangling the cat. She confronts him, She's upset,
Speaker 7: what are you doing, Ed And he says, I'm just
Speaker 7: giving it a little love. And so that's kind of
Speaker 7: ed her tail right there. He admitted to Brit that
Speaker 7: during a full moon he did weird things. Well, the
Speaker 7: night Nancy disappeared, it was a full moon.
Speaker 5: Now he moves back to Grand Junction and he's in
Speaker 5: and out of mental institutions. Tell us on the circumstances
Speaker 5: in which the police feel that they have to make
Speaker 5: a move. He's in the institution and how.
Speaker 6: They do this.
Speaker 7: So there was a real concern that hotel was going
Speaker 7: to disappear into the wind, just like the dark side
Speaker 7: of the moon. He was going to disappear. I mean,
Speaker 7: he owned very little. He had a house he'd bought
Speaker 7: for eight thousand dollars two years after he graduated from
Speaker 7: high school, which I thought was rather amazing, but he
Speaker 7: had that. Other than that, he really didn't have much.
Speaker 7: And the heat sold that before he'd moved id O
Speaker 7: faull or moved Idahole, so he had his car, and
Speaker 7: they felt that as the heat started to come on,
Speaker 7: and I get the sense that he knew the heat
Speaker 7: was coming on, he was just going to disappear. But
Speaker 7: he'd tried to commit suicide by drinking, if I recall,
Speaker 7: a pint of vodka and some aspirin. And so he
Speaker 7: was put in on a metal hold, and they were
Speaker 7: concerned that as soon as he got out of that
Speaker 7: thing he was going to flee, and so they managed
Speaker 7: to get a warrant for his arrest second degree murder,
Speaker 7: and they were planning to pick him up the day
Speaker 7: he walked out of that thing, but unfortunately he walked
Speaker 7: out disappeared, and for three days the Grand Junction police
Speaker 7: search for him, and finally they found him at his
Speaker 7: dad's place and he was arrested. He was arrested and
Speaker 7: he was held there for a couple of weeks and
Speaker 7: refused extradition, and then there was a governor's warrant and
Speaker 7: after two or three weeks he was flown to the Salmon, Idaho.
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Speaker 5: talking about things leading up to the preliminary and to
Speaker 5: the inevitable trial. Tell us about the characters in terms
Speaker 5: of prosecution and defense, and a little bit about anticipation
Speaker 5: for this in terms of what kind of case this
Speaker 5: actually was.
Speaker 7: So it was pretty clear that this case was marginal
Speaker 7: at best. It was an entirely circumstantial case, but there
Speaker 7: were three evidentiary items that held some hope. When the
Speaker 7: state police went back to the death scene where the
Speaker 7: body had been hidden, they found two different things there.
Speaker 7: They found a pair of bowl a sunglasses laying nearby.
Speaker 7: They also found a photograph of a Civil War era cannon,
Speaker 7: I think reproduction cannon laying there. And they found that
Speaker 7: hair that I mentioned during the autopsy. And so the
Speaker 7: first big issue was what is that hair? Whose hair
Speaker 7: was that? And Barcela was hoping that would be the
Speaker 7: key to the golden goose, something that tie her tail
Speaker 7: to the body. And so that was forensically and before
Speaker 7: that they went ahead and got a judge's order to
Speaker 7: take hair from her tail, and so it was it
Speaker 7: was a forensic comparison. And the first thing they compared
Speaker 7: that mystery hair to was Nancy's hair, and that came
Speaker 7: back negative. It didn't match. And then they examined that
Speaker 7: hair with hair that was taken from various places, including
Speaker 7: pubic hair from her tail, and it came back negative again,
Speaker 7: and so that that had no evidentiary value. And so
Speaker 7: the big thing was the photograph and this bull at sunglasses,
Speaker 7: and of course they were dustin't for Prince. The everything
Speaker 7: on there was smudges, and Barcelo felt that both items
Speaker 7: had fallen out of Hertail's car when he dumped the body.
Speaker 7: I believe that's true. And Hertel he was really into
Speaker 7: guns and that sort of thing, and he'd been previously
Speaker 7: arrested for possession of explosives and he had quite a
Speaker 7: bit of black powder and safety fuse, maybe five years
Speaker 7: before he moved to Idaho, and he said at that
Speaker 7: during that investigation that he used the black powder and
Speaker 7: cannon for a black powder infused for a cannon he owned,
Speaker 7: but he'd blown the cannon up and hauled it to
Speaker 7: dump and so Barcelow and the state investigators really looked
Speaker 7: hard trying to connect that photograph to Hortail. They were
Speaker 7: interviews done by the Grand Junction Police Department with cannon
Speaker 7: people in Grand Junction seeing if they'd ever had contact
Speaker 7: with her Tail and a cannon, if this was Hertail's cannon.
Speaker 7: They showed that photograph to his coworkers, hoping that her
Speaker 7: Tail had shown them the cannon he once don't. Unfortunately,
Speaker 7: they came up with nothing. Nobody had seen that photograph.
Speaker 7: Nobody in Grand Junction had seen Hertail's cannon. There they were.
Speaker 7: They were sitting there with absolutely no physical evidence.
Speaker 5: So they proceed to trial and they attempt to at
Speaker 5: least negate the defense which tries to point the finger
Speaker 5: at Cliff and his and his sons or his sons
Speaker 5: at least, and they try to obviously attributed that he
Speaker 5: has not the mental capacity to be able to have
Speaker 5: done this. So what are the finding factors and what
Speaker 5: happens in terms of verdict?
Speaker 7: Well, obviously Hertel's attorney, which coincidentally is the same attorney
Speaker 7: as representing Lori Davell in the murder of her two kids. Interesting,
Speaker 7: he made the big push that Hertel was not adept
Speaker 7: to understand mirandize Miranda when it was done by Stimpson
Speaker 7: and the female deputy, and that none of that stuff
Speaker 7: should have been put in play. He made the push
Speaker 7: that since I hadn't mirandized him, any of his statements
Speaker 7: during that contact with canine dogs shouldn't be allowed in
Speaker 7: the court. And the judge assigned two different psychologists to
Speaker 7: examine him, and both agreed that Hertel was intelligent enough
Speaker 7: to understand Miranda, intelligent enough to read Miranda and understand
Speaker 7: and so his male capacity at that point in time
Speaker 7: was not a legal issue, which kind of grabs back
Speaker 7: at my guts for not pushing him into saying something
Speaker 7: incultatory that dark night on the backstep to the Northfolk Cafe. Anyway,
Speaker 7: his attorney definitely did go after Cliff, just to give
Speaker 7: the jury just a little bit of doubt that perhaps
Speaker 7: Cliff killed his own wife. And it was not a
Speaker 7: happy time for Cliff. And so the jury was only
Speaker 7: out for two hours, and there was no question in
Speaker 7: my mind what they were going to find They found
Speaker 7: him not guilty, and he walked out of the courtroom
Speaker 7: that day.
Speaker 5: So you say it really divided the community and obviously
Speaker 5: obviously no closure for anyone. And you write about worrying
Speaker 5: about Cliff being so close to Eddie Hurtel in that
Speaker 5: courtroom and what he might do, because he did have
Speaker 5: an outburst in court testifying at one point. What does
Speaker 5: Eddie Hurtel do? Where does he go and what happens
Speaker 5: now this story.
Speaker 7: Well, Hertel left with his sister back to Grand Junction
Speaker 7: that day, and he goes went back to the same
Speaker 7: old ways. He went back to his Christian Identity movement people,
Speaker 7: his militia contacts back there. And in that movement he'd
Speaker 7: known of a woman by the name of Jerry mcavee,
Speaker 7: and Jerry had heard he'd been arrested in Idaho and
Speaker 7: she had that group pray for him during his trial.
Speaker 7: Must have worked, so he and Jerry start some kind
Speaker 7: of friendly relationship that slowly turned into a romantic relationship.
Speaker 7: And five months after he walked out of that clertinom
Speaker 7: in Idaho, Jerry turned up missing and Grand Junction police
Speaker 7: department started that opened a missing person case, and within
Speaker 7: three days they realized it was something much worse than
Speaker 7: a missing person, that Jerry mcavee just hadn't gone on vacation,
Speaker 7: and they opened up a homicide investigation, even though there
Speaker 7: again they didn't have a body.
Speaker 6: Tell us what.
Speaker 5: Some of the things that in this investigation they find
Speaker 5: are commonalities. Interestingly enough, between McKelvey and at Hotel Well.
Speaker 7: Both women, Nancy Cummings Jerry mccabee were older. In fact,
Speaker 7: they even though Jerry wasn't as old as Nancy, they
Speaker 7: looked the same. They both had wore glasses with chains
Speaker 7: like a librarian, and they both looked about the same age.
Speaker 7: They both looked to be in their fifties, and they
Speaker 7: were both about the same size. And obviously her tail
Speaker 7: was attracted to Nancy Cummings. He had the hots for it,
Speaker 7: That's what he told several people, which is an odd
Speaker 7: thing to have a hats for somebody that's thirty years
Speaker 7: a year older. And then even with Jerry McAfee, she
Speaker 7: was twenty years as older. And somewhere in the mix
Speaker 7: of that he ran into his old babysitter it was
Speaker 7: ten years older than him. That way back when he
Speaker 7: was ten years old. He'd had a sexual relationship with
Speaker 7: somebody might call that an affair, but it was legally
Speaker 7: it was non consensual rate that went on for some time.
Speaker 7: That's what caused him to have is he even admitted it.
Speaker 7: That's what caused him to have his sexual interest in
Speaker 7: older women. That's what he was attracted to and both
Speaker 7: Nancy had. That's what he went to the Rivers Fork
Speaker 7: in that night was to have sex with Nancy, and
Speaker 7: of course she shut him down, and that's why he
Speaker 7: killed her, in my humble opinion. And then with Jerry
Speaker 7: he had this relationship and the belief is that that day,
Speaker 7: on the fourteenth of April, I believe it was she
Speaker 7: shut him down and says I don't want to see anymore,
Speaker 7: and that's when he killed her. And that's why this
Speaker 7: is a chronicle of an unrequited killer.
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Speaker 5: Now let's talk about the investigation to bring him to
Speaker 5: justice over this McKelvey, this woman he killed. Tell us
Speaker 5: what happens and the arrest.
Speaker 7: Well, the Grand Junction Police department is quite the opposite
Speaker 7: of the lam High County Sheriff's office. Grand Junction has
Speaker 7: a serious investigative branch. They have a serious forensic branch.
Speaker 7: They do a lot of murders. And the lead investigator
Speaker 7: was a guy named George Barley. And George starts focusing
Speaker 7: in on her tail. Within about three days. He came
Speaker 7: up with hotel's name phone number in a diary or
Speaker 7: I guess a notebook of Jerry macvie's was the first flag.
Speaker 7: And he well knew of hertel's history in Idaho, and
Speaker 7: he well knew that Sheriff Marshbow, without a doubt, still believed,
Speaker 7: even though he'd been found not guilty, had killed Nancy Cummings,
Speaker 7: so that was a huge red flag for Barley. The
Speaker 7: other thing that they found in mcavee's house was a
Speaker 7: hand a mirror, an antique can mirror, and it turned
Speaker 7: out that mirror had Hertel's fingerprints on it. So they
Speaker 7: start watching Hertel's house and they realized that at one
Speaker 7: point in time, I think was day three of Jerry
Speaker 7: being missing, Jerry calls her sister up and starts asking
Speaker 7: questions that didn't sound right. They had planned to acupuncture
Speaker 7: session together and Jerry was asking when and where, and
Speaker 7: her sister knew that she knew these questions that didn't
Speaker 7: need to be answered, and in the background, she heard
Speaker 7: some kids playing outside, and so Barley early on recognized
Speaker 7: the fact that at Hertel's house that is dad owned,
Speaker 7: there was right next to a school across the street
Speaker 7: with a yard where the kids played. And so the
Speaker 7: focus starts going in on her Tail, and within a
Speaker 7: two weeks they located Jerry's car within a few blocks
Speaker 7: of her Tail's house. Now, they never did come up
Speaker 7: with Hertael's fingerprints in that car, but Jerry had been
Speaker 7: a meticulous records keeper and she documented when she filled
Speaker 7: up for gas and the mileage, and it was right
Speaker 7: before she went over to edit her Tail's palace. Miley
Speaker 7: said that anyway, and then the mileage log showed that
Speaker 7: you could drive that car to ed her Tail's house
Speaker 7: and then over to where it was dumped. And so
Speaker 7: that was a significant part in this investigation.
Speaker 5: So they realize they have a guy that maybe a
Speaker 5: safety risk, and she's staying with his grandma, So they
Speaker 5: devise a way to safely be able to execute this arrest.
Speaker 5: Tell us about that, and again the.
Speaker 7: Journey, they knew that Vertail had said that if two
Speaker 7: or more officers show up my door, they'll be gunplay
Speaker 7: something that effect. He was living in this duplex of
Speaker 7: that his dad owned, and this neighbor guy living on
Speaker 7: the other side of the duplex kept smelling something bad,
Speaker 7: something rotting, and he confronted ed with that, and Ed
Speaker 7: said some cacid diyt in the crawl space and he
Speaker 7: did clean him up, which of course the smell never
Speaker 7: went away. That was another big thing about what was
Speaker 7: going on here. But Hertail was heavy into guns. He
Speaker 7: had thousands of rams of ammunition. He'd been investigated in
Speaker 7: a pipe bombing thing. I mentioned that with that cannon
Speaker 7: thing and get charged with explosives, and so they were
Speaker 7: concerned that he had bombs in that house. They're concerned
Speaker 7: that he didn't have a weapon on him and that
Speaker 7: sort of thing. So they wanted to get him stopped
Speaker 7: and somewhat in custody or at least question him at
Speaker 7: that point in time before they hit the house with
Speaker 7: a search warrant. They had a search warrant for the house,
Speaker 7: and they had one for his car, and so Detective
Speaker 7: Barley and another detective set up on his mother's house
Speaker 7: because they knew they were aware that he was staying
Speaker 7: with his mother. She was sick. And finally, at eleven
Speaker 7: o'clock that morning, Urtill gets in his car, drives by
Speaker 7: them and gives them the NOD recognized that he was
Speaker 7: being watched. It was an unmarked car. They were not
Speaker 7: in uniform, but he was that pinked up, and they
Speaker 7: finally got him pulled over and he jumped out of
Speaker 7: his car. They get out of their car. He didn't
Speaker 7: have any weapons, and they told him what was going on.
Speaker 7: There was a search warrant going on in his house,
Speaker 7: there was impounding his car for a search warrant, and
Speaker 7: he never asked what they were looking for.
Speaker 5: Now you have him, were getting ready for trial here,
Speaker 5: and the preliminary is there's enough evidence to obviously proceed
Speaker 5: to trial. While he's in custody. During a preliminary an
Speaker 5: interesting exchange happens based on the idea that they feel
Speaker 5: he may be suicidal. So they call a nurse, Kathy,
Speaker 5: and she is concerned for her safety, so she has
Speaker 5: an officer accompanied them, and they and he has a
Speaker 5: she has an interview with hertel tell us about this
Speaker 5: crucial conversation.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, and so, uh, let me step back for a minute.
Speaker 7: At that search warrant, they find Jerry mcavie's body under
Speaker 7: that house, in the crawl space, rotting away, buried in
Speaker 7: about a foot of dirt. And so in the sense
Speaker 7: that there's the smoking gun, it's hard to explain your
Speaker 7: dead girlfriend's body in your house. And so that was
Speaker 7: that was the big deal. Now. He was arrested that
Speaker 7: night on first degree murder, and at some point in
Speaker 7: time he got wigged out and one of the correctional
Speaker 7: officers was worried that he was a suicidal risk, so
Speaker 7: he brought in a nurse to interviewing, and she was
Speaker 7: very afraid to be with this accused murderer in the
Speaker 7: same room, and so she asked for a deputy to end.
Speaker 7: So the deputy's standing nearby, I'm sure he had his
Speaker 7: arms crossed. I'm sure he's watching this guy for any movement,
Speaker 7: and Ed Hurtel says, I killed my girlfriend. I killed
Speaker 7: Jerry mcavee. Now, the interview between the nurse and her
Speaker 7: tail would be privileged information that nurse could not testify,
Speaker 7: but with the deputy overhearing that confession, that was admissible.
Speaker 7: So Ed Hurtail was facing the death penalty in Colorado,
Speaker 7: and it was a case made out of steel. As
Speaker 7: I put it in the book, here's this rotting body
Speaker 7: under the floorboards, here's this confession in front of a
Speaker 7: correctional officer. And at one point in time, his attorney
Speaker 7: in Colorado tried to point the finger at Nancy Cummings's
Speaker 7: sons that went over there, killed Jerry McFee and put
Speaker 7: the body under his house to frame him, which was
Speaker 7: I'm sure that the steam coming out of that magic
Speaker 7: bottle drifted to the line rather quickly, but so anyway,
Speaker 7: there it was. And once again Urtaeil's attorney tried to
Speaker 7: use the insanity defense and other Colorado It did not work,
Speaker 7: and so eventually ed Heardtel pled guilty to second degree murder.
Speaker 5: What was the sentence for him? And as you write,
Speaker 5: when's his mandatory release date?
Speaker 7: The sentence was the maximum. The judge gave him forty
Speaker 7: years the maximum for a second degree homicide, and she
Speaker 7: mentioned his how dangerous he was in society to society
Speaker 7: and mentioned how much he hated Blacks and Jews as
Speaker 7: part of that sentence. And so he got that forty years.
Speaker 7: He'll be out in twenty thirty seven. He'll be seventy
Speaker 7: years old.
Speaker 5: He was asked, you write just interestingly why he killed
Speaker 5: Jerry and his reasoning for that.
Speaker 7: He justified it to that nurse that the cops were
Speaker 7: always putting the heat on him and they kind of
Speaker 7: were nothing unjustly, but he blamed it on the cops.
Speaker 7: That's why he killed Jerry McBee. He's never, to my knowledge,
Speaker 7: admitted to killing Nancy Cummings. You know, there was an
Speaker 7: alleged jailhouse confession here in sam And while he was
Speaker 7: being held here, but I don't put much weight in that.
Speaker 7: It could have been happened. It could just been another
Speaker 7: convict trying to get some kind of reduced sentence for
Speaker 7: coming up with a story. But he I think it's
Speaker 7: I think he doesn't even want to admit to himself
Speaker 7: that he killed Nancy Cummings.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you write in the epilogue before the end, you
Speaker 5: write that you did about fifty interviews and you attempted
Speaker 5: to speak to Enter Tel.
Speaker 6: He wished you would have been able to speak the Cliff.
Speaker 5: I'll just tell us about some of the people that
Speaker 5: you would have liked to have spoken to and the
Speaker 5: most profound things that you heard during this entire project.
Speaker 7: Well, I spoke to Nancy and Cliff's kids, and that
Speaker 7: really grabbed at me, because you know, this is this
Speaker 7: murder happened twenty seven years ago, and here I've talked
Speaker 7: to an adult people that males, males are not supposed
Speaker 7: to be too emotional, twenty seven years after the fact,
Speaker 7: and they're hold one of them's crying. Everyone is trying
Speaker 7: to hold back from crying, and to this day it
Speaker 7: just bothers them deeply. And it really struck me that
Speaker 7: there's no blocks to put the fact that your mother,
Speaker 7: your wife, your grandmother was murdered over sex or lack
Speaker 7: of sex and dumped beside a road and covered in rocks.
Speaker 7: To this day, those people, it really grinds on them
Speaker 7: that it happened. I mean, it's just it's been eating
Speaker 7: them for decades. And I would have loved to have
Speaker 7: ed Heartel's father talk to me, but he's deceased and
Speaker 7: I doubt you would have talked to me. He didn't
Speaker 7: believe ed had killed Nancy Cummings. And then on the
Speaker 7: night of the search horn, at ten o'clock at night,
Speaker 7: he turns the news on and sees that Jerry mcabee's
Speaker 7: body has been found in the cross base of his
Speaker 7: house where his kid is living. And he drove over
Speaker 7: to the guy who still working the scene and said
Speaker 7: he had me fooled. So in all these interviews there
Speaker 7: was forty six interviews, some of them were really a
Speaker 7: gut wrenching stories. You know, a murder just doesn't, as
Speaker 7: I say, doesn't end at sentencing. That murder story just
Speaker 7: goes on and just eats the people in Northfark, Idaho.
Speaker 7: To this day, the place has not been the same.
Speaker 7: There hasn't been another murder in twenty seven years. People
Speaker 7: locked their doors, people have pistols sitting beside their beds.
Speaker 7: It's all because of Ed Hortel and the killing of
Speaker 7: Nancy Cummings.
Speaker 6: Yes, I want to thank you very much Tony H.
Speaker 5: Latham for coming on and talking about Under a Cold Moon,
Speaker 5: a Chronicle of an Unrequited Killer. It's been fascinating for
Speaker 5: those that might want to take a look, get more information.
Speaker 5: Is there somewhere where they might take a look and
Speaker 5: tell us when this book was released.
Speaker 7: It was published last month in May, and it's availed
Speaker 7: plug in the Amazon Jungle of course, both in print
Speaker 7: and candle, and sometime wipe this fall, I'll have it
Speaker 7: as an audiobook and I'm going to go ahead and
Speaker 7: narrate this one myself.
Speaker 6: Oh that'd be great. Thank you very much, Tony H.
Speaker 7: Latham.
Speaker 5: Under a Cold Moon, a Chronicle of an Unrequited Killer.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much, and you have a great evening.
Speaker 6: Good night.
Speaker 7: Thanks so much, Dan for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 6: Thank you. Good night,