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<v Speaker 1>Hey, folks.

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<v Speaker 2>We are recording at Chainlink smart Con event and joining

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<v Speaker 2>me is Sam Fagan, who's the director of Payments at

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<v Speaker 2>Polygon Labs. Sam, great to have you. It's great to

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<v Speaker 2>be here, man, Sam. I'm really excited to dive into

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<v Speaker 2>some details around Polygon. I follow Polygon for years. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a madic token holder, uh dear that. Yeah, and I've

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<v Speaker 2>been seeing like on r w A, dot x y

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<v Speaker 2>Z a lot of building happening on Polygon absolutely, which

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<v Speaker 2>is really cool. But before we get to all that,

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<v Speaker 2>tell us a bit about yourself and you know your

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<v Speaker 2>history in crypto.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so I've been at Polygon for about seven months now,

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<v Speaker 3>started in March. Prior to Polygon, I was at checkout

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<v Speaker 3>dot com leading stable cooin growth and crypto in the US,

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<v Speaker 3>so working with the likes of coinbase and crypto dot

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<v Speaker 3>com and moonpay to accept Devin credit card payments, but

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<v Speaker 3>also working with web two merchants such as.

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<v Speaker 1>Fiver and upbooring Core.

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<v Speaker 3>Very early stages, I was starting to test what stable

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<v Speaker 3>coin withdrawals will look like the case their contractor or

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<v Speaker 3>someone in the US is hiring someone in Latin America

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<v Speaker 3>instead of withdrawing to local currency.

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<v Speaker 1>As they accept.

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<v Speaker 3>Dollars, they want to hold a dollar nominated stable coin

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<v Speaker 3>and withdraw on stable coins. So it was very early days,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think now we're finally getting to that point

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<v Speaker 3>where we're seeing.

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<v Speaker 1>Some of this adoption. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Prior to that, I was at Coin Payments, leading global

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<v Speaker 3>strategy there. Prior to that, co founded a company called

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<v Speaker 3>omni Cash, which was.

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<v Speaker 1>Doing stable coin rewards.

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<v Speaker 3>We were founded and funded by five Serve and yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I was doing that for two years. So been in

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<v Speaker 3>and around stable coin payments for about seven years now.

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<v Speaker 3>I been waiting for this moment right now, So super exciting.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So what's it like seeing the Genius Act pass where

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<v Speaker 2>the market has clarity around stable coins and everybody and

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<v Speaker 2>their grandma wants to launch a stable coin now?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>No, we've been looking for kind of the rules and

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<v Speaker 3>the lay of the land in order to really see

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<v Speaker 3>this technology scale and this pay and rail scale. I

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<v Speaker 3>think kind of the first domino was when Stripe acquired Bridge.

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<v Speaker 3>Shout out to Zach Love the Bridge team. Yeah, but

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<v Speaker 3>once that domino fell, it really put everything else into place.

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<v Speaker 3>And with the Genius Act, now these companies that were

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<v Speaker 3>testing and running pocs are now starting to go live,

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<v Speaker 3>so we're seeing enterprises, FinTechs PSPs really starting to go

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<v Speaker 3>live with their first proof of concepts.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's exciting. Yeah, it's really exciting.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, we have a much more favorable environment

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<v Speaker 2>for crypto and it seems folks are optimistic. They're heads

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<v Speaker 2>down building, innovating, and we got the market structure build that's,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, coming up soon. What do you think about

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<v Speaker 2>the market structure when that gets past and what impact

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<v Speaker 2>it will have on the industry.

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<v Speaker 3>So I try not to comment on pending regulation, but

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<v Speaker 3>I will say that it's just another very important step

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<v Speaker 3>to see who the regulator is going to be, both

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<v Speaker 3>through the commodities and the security side.

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<v Speaker 1>So very excited to see what happens in the coming months,

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<v Speaker 1>Oh for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>So give us a review of Polygon for those who

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<v Speaker 2>may not know what is Polygon, tell us about the

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<v Speaker 2>blockchain and much more.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so, Polygon historically is a legacy Layer two on

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<v Speaker 3>Ethereum EVM compatible. As of really the last year, we've

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<v Speaker 3>been very much focused on payments. Prior to me joining

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<v Speaker 3>in March, we really took a deep dive into our

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<v Speaker 3>data and we saw a significant organic growth in P

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<v Speaker 3>two P volume right now with the number one chain

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<v Speaker 3>for monthly active users for USDCOW and number three us

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<v Speaker 3>D T WOW. So we felt as if we needed

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<v Speaker 3>to really double down and triple down on payments. So

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<v Speaker 3>they brought out myself, my colleague Jamal who's former Bridge,

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<v Speaker 3>former cash App. Shout out to Jamal. We just hired

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<v Speaker 3>John Egan recently. It was a former head of crypto

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<v Speaker 3>at Stripe, and a Shwari who has been leading payments

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<v Speaker 3>at Polygon for four years now was former AMEX. So

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<v Speaker 3>after diving into some of the data, we really realized

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<v Speaker 3>that we wanted to go deep into payments what it

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<v Speaker 3>looks like today. We try to think of ourselves as consultants.

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<v Speaker 3>We're not selling financial services ourselves. We're really the payment

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<v Speaker 3>network for payment companies and enterprises to really get their

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<v Speaker 3>foot in the door for on chain payments. So when

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<v Speaker 3>we're talking to an enterprise or a payment company, trying

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<v Speaker 3>to educate them on some of the use cases and

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<v Speaker 3>trends that we're seeing, also getting an understanding of what

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<v Speaker 3>their current problems are, some of the gaps are, and

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<v Speaker 3>their businesses. Sure, we're finding a lot with the introduction

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<v Speaker 3>of stable coins, payouts and remittances is a natural use case.

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<v Speaker 3>Treasury management is a natural use case. So like as

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<v Speaker 3>an example, we're working with a top three money remitter.

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<v Speaker 3>These remittance companies are whole holding dormant capital right bank accounts.

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<v Speaker 1>So they call it no shoe.

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<v Speaker 3>So they might have a myriad of bank accounts in

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<v Speaker 3>which they're holding dormant capital in order to ledger. Let's

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<v Speaker 3>just say a transaction from dollars to BRL. They're holding

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<v Speaker 3>VRL in a bank account local in Brazil in which

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<v Speaker 3>they have the ledger off. So what stable coins provide

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<v Speaker 3>is the ability to now transact twenty four to seven,

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<v Speaker 3>move money inter company within their bank accounts twenty four

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<v Speaker 3>to seven and limiting some of that pre funding. So

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<v Speaker 3>that's just an example of understanding kind of the use

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<v Speaker 3>case us having payments experience on the other side right

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<v Speaker 3>now applying it to what the technology can provide.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, to exciting times.

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<v Speaker 2>And on that note, I read recently that flutter Wave

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<v Speaker 2>selected Polygon as is default blockchain for cross border payments.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep, tell us about that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, super excited about Flutterwaves specifically when I came into

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<v Speaker 3>Polygon I think we're how we're thinking about things. Like

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<v Speaker 3>one of the things we talk about is modernization with

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<v Speaker 3>a purpose. We're not trying to bypass the banking rails.

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<v Speaker 3>We're trying to expand upon it and give access and inclusion.

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<v Speaker 3>And when we think about some of the markets where

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<v Speaker 3>we're going to have the greatest influence, Africa is definitely

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<v Speaker 3>one of them. Sure Utterwave is the largest payment company

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<v Speaker 3>in Africa.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. So what the use case is today?

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<v Speaker 3>They have a lot of enterprise merchants such as Uber

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<v Speaker 3>and Netflix right now except Nira. Nira is very volatile

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<v Speaker 3>to the dollar. So what they're doing as soon as

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<v Speaker 3>they accept that Nira, they are immediately swapping to a

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<v Speaker 3>stable coin usually USDT, and then now they're sitting on

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of USDT. What Futterwave is going to be

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<v Speaker 3>doing is now accepting deposits in stable coin, swapping to

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<v Speaker 3>a dollar, and then settling to Netflix and Uber's bank accounts.

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<v Speaker 1>In the US. Wow.

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<v Speaker 3>So we're really excited to be the default chain for

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<v Speaker 3>Flutterwave in their new build. But again, I think it's

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<v Speaker 3>US really understanding the use cases being on that side,

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<v Speaker 3>and we're in the business of solving problems and yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>super excited about Flutterwave and downstream as a phase two

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<v Speaker 3>they'll be rolling this out to consumers. So now some

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<v Speaker 3>of the on banks will now have access to dollars

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<v Speaker 3>nominated stable coins by just downloading a digital wallet.

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<v Speaker 1>So super excited. That's incredible on many levels.

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<v Speaker 2>That you have the largest payments company, is it the

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<v Speaker 2>payments company at Flairway?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, so they're fire so they okay, have deboc credit

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<v Speaker 3>card payments, also do local bank transfers.

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<v Speaker 1>But they're a PSP. Okay.

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<v Speaker 3>So if you're thinking about like Stripe is very big

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<v Speaker 3>in the US. Sure, you have companies like ad In

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<v Speaker 3>and check Out that are big globally. They are an

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<v Speaker 3>enterprise PSP for Africa.

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<v Speaker 1>That's incredible.

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<v Speaker 2>And then you know, I think about you mentioned the

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<v Speaker 2>unbanked and people who don't have financial services and now

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<v Speaker 2>through this technology are able to do that and access

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<v Speaker 2>the world's reserve currency, the dollar via stable coin, and

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<v Speaker 2>they can put that to work even in DeFi and

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<v Speaker 2>so forth.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, No, it's very exciting and it's going to be

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<v Speaker 3>interesting seeing over the next few years. I think a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of multinational corporations are going to become FinTechs. Or

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<v Speaker 3>banks themselves. So if you think about uber like, obviously

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<v Speaker 3>they have large distribution, they're global, Like, what is the

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<v Speaker 3>look for them to have a digital law within their

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<v Speaker 3>experience and for folks to hold stable coins in order

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<v Speaker 3>to create more rewards or user stickiness with their users.

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<v Speaker 1>So very excited about where we're going.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think this technology or this payment rail takes

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<v Speaker 3>us from a system that historically has been really good

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<v Speaker 3>for a few markets such as the US, UK and

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<v Speaker 3>EU right now expands it to everyone and everywhere.

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<v Speaker 1>So very excited.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's great stuff. Now we were talking before the recording,

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<v Speaker 2>I was looking at r WA, dot XYZ and Polygon

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<v Speaker 2>is up there with the amount of building that's happening

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<v Speaker 2>on it. Beyond stable coins, which is huge, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>are there other tokenization types happening?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I would think.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's a few products that we're working on our

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<v Speaker 3>payments use cases we're bringing on chain. One of them

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<v Speaker 3>is yield, So we're working with a lot of our

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<v Speaker 3>fintech partners. As an example, Lemon Cash in Latin America

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<v Speaker 3>has introduced highield savings accounts to their end users, and

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<v Speaker 3>that is backed by Polygon, r WA's or our WA's

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<v Speaker 3>issue shoot on Polygon. Oh wow, so they're more full

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<v Speaker 3>vaults than they might have. As an example, Black Rocks

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<v Speaker 3>Biddle or Apollo's a credit in a basket and on

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<v Speaker 3>the back end it will be RWAs on Polygon. On

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<v Speaker 3>the front end will just appear to be five to

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<v Speaker 3>six percent APY and a new savings account for a

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<v Speaker 3>user in Latin America. So that's exciting. We're also looking

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<v Speaker 3>at what effects on chain looks like. Yeah, very excited

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<v Speaker 3>about that. Right now, Polygon makes up about fifty percent

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<v Speaker 3>of the market cap and non USD denominated stable coins,

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<v Speaker 3>which is super exciting, very early days.

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<v Speaker 1>Sharp liquidity is a.

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<v Speaker 3>Very thin in some of those non USD stables, but

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<v Speaker 3>have to start somewhere. And then we're also looking at

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<v Speaker 3>what on chain credit looks like. So there's a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of demands to solve the weekend settlement crunch. Typically a

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<v Speaker 3>PSB or a merchant on a Friday they process X

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<v Speaker 3>amount of money, they won't get settled from their bank

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<v Speaker 3>until Monday or Tuesday of next week. We're trying to

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<v Speaker 3>solve that gap with stable coins. So exciting that it's

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<v Speaker 3>very very exciting.

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<v Speaker 2>Curious about the FX market that you mentioned, because we're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna see the digital u want and the digital yen

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<v Speaker 2>and it goes on and on right whether it's in

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<v Speaker 2>a CBDs C format or a stable coin.

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<v Speaker 1>How that affects the FX market.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, No, it's it's going to be super interesting to

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<v Speaker 3>see how it plays out. We're hoping it's a lot

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<v Speaker 3>more of like retail facing experiences versus more wholesale and CBDC,

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<v Speaker 3>but we'll see. Right now, we're working on an FX dex,

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<v Speaker 3>working with partners such as Bitso in Latin America who

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<v Speaker 3>have issued MXN. We'll also have pairs and BRL cop

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<v Speaker 3>We're also working on the Singapore Dollar, which is issued

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<v Speaker 3>by straight x So, working with issuers globally. Yeah, to

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<v Speaker 3>introduce pairs to USDC USDT on O r FX decks,

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<v Speaker 3>which we plan to productize over the next year or two.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, so many things happening in the blockchain crypto space.

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<v Speaker 1>It's amazing, super exciting man. Yeah, it feels like a.

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<v Speaker 2>Great time to be here building, especially now that we

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<v Speaker 2>have a favorable environment here in the United States.

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to.

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<v Speaker 2>Talk about ethereum, given that polygons a ethereum layer too,

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<v Speaker 2>and what does the feature of that look like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>are we going to see a lot more Layer twos

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<v Speaker 2>that are focused on specific things like how polygons focus

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<v Speaker 2>and even corporates launching layer twos of their own.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, that's a great question.

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<v Speaker 3>Where I see Ethereum always being that trusted security and

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<v Speaker 3>compliance layer where colleaguon fits in. I think we have

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<v Speaker 3>chosen to specialize in payments. I think we'll see l

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<v Speaker 3>twos have their own specialization. We have a hypothesis that

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<v Speaker 3>change will become specialized and optimized for certain use cases.

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<v Speaker 3>High frequency trading might be one. Meme coins might be one.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll see, but we're going to focus on payments. But

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<v Speaker 3>I think Ethereum will always be that regulated core layer.

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<v Speaker 1>That's secure and compliant.

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<v Speaker 3>So Ethereum will always obviously be a very important partner

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<v Speaker 3>to us.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean ETH is getting so much adoption as a

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<v Speaker 2>layer one the layer twos, But you look at black

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<v Speaker 2>Rock launching Biddle on eth first, right, So it feels

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<v Speaker 2>like it's the you know, bitcoins is digital goal store

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<v Speaker 2>of value and Eth is like this next layer on

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<v Speaker 2>the Internet that you can just build one hundred.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's that trusted settlement layer.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for this new Internet of value and it's uh,

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<v Speaker 3>it's really exciting and it's definitely the chosen one by

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<v Speaker 3>institutions and enterprises. So we think we're in a very

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<v Speaker 3>good position as an EVM compatible L two to really

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<v Speaker 3>scale payments on chain.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, for sure, as much as you can share what's

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<v Speaker 2>on your roadmap, what can we expect in twenty twenty six.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think I touched upon it a little bit. Sure,

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<v Speaker 3>definitely the effect on chain is a very exciting component

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<v Speaker 3>for us. Sure Yield will continue working with FinTechs who

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<v Speaker 3>are really trying to add additional financial services that have

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<v Speaker 3>to do with high yield savings accounts. I think you'll

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<v Speaker 3>start to see a lot of Remen's companies starting to

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<v Speaker 3>introduce their own version of a neo bank or digital

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<v Speaker 3>wallet or a bank account. So super excited to be

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<v Speaker 3>able to support those companies. And on Chaine credit is

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<v Speaker 3>something that I think will be very big in the future.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure and really making settlements seven days a week versus

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<v Speaker 3>the current five days a week. Those are like the

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<v Speaker 3>three products that we're working on now, and I think

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<v Speaker 3>you'll start to see some new ideas come from Polygon

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<v Speaker 3>next year. Which I'll hope you'll be able to share

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<v Speaker 3>next year this time. Yeah, but I think those are

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<v Speaker 3>the three to focus on right now in the marketplace.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, since you're not far from where I live and

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<v Speaker 2>where my studio is, we're going to have to do

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<v Speaker 2>it in person to go through the details.

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<v Speaker 1>That'd be really good.

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<v Speaker 2>I would love to get your thoughts on the tokenization market,

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<v Speaker 2>because we're seeing a massive race there. Folks are tokenizing equities,

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<v Speaker 2>money market, precious metals, real estate, and so forth, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's the big institutions now leading to charge.

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<v Speaker 1>What is your outlook on that market?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think what's super exciting it's giving access to

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<v Speaker 3>those that typically didn't have access globally. That's what I'm

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<v Speaker 3>really excited about, regarding some of these tokenized money market

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<v Speaker 3>funds issued by black Rock as an example. Sure, I

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<v Speaker 3>think it's really all about access and inclusion. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 3>these tokenized products are just giving further access and liquidity

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<v Speaker 3>to those that typically in the past did not have access.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think that's what it's about, and it's exciting.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And along the lines of what you know you were

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<v Speaker 2>mentioning earlier with Polygon's focus on payments and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>working with flatterwave and different parts of the world where

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<v Speaker 2>people couldn't access the dollar easily, but now in a

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<v Speaker 2>tokenized warn they could potentially access US stocks, yep, and

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<v Speaker 2>other funds and that could change their life.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep. No, yeah, it's.

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<v Speaker 3>I've mentioned earlier like modernization with a purpose and like

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<v Speaker 3>we're just very very excited to be on the forefront

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<v Speaker 3>of giving access to people that in the past did not.

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<v Speaker 1>It's very very exciting, man.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, and I love you know, it's one thing

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<v Speaker 2>to say, hey, this technology is great, but to see

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<v Speaker 2>it applied in the real world and helping I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what it has to be at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the day, right, yep, that's what I think.

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<v Speaker 3>I hope a lot of us got into this space.

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<v Speaker 3>I know I started watching your podcast like seven eight

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<v Speaker 3>years ago when I first got into the space, and yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>you've done a lot for this industry, and I think

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of us got into.

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<v Speaker 1>It with a purpose driven mindset.

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<v Speaker 3>So we're finally at this I think we've just crossed

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<v Speaker 3>the starting gate across the chasm. Stable coins have product

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<v Speaker 3>market fit and yeah, a lot of it is rooted

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<v Speaker 3>in purpose, which is great.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, Sam great stuff. We're going to have to do

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<v Speaker 2>a long form, but thank.

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<v Speaker 1>You so much for joining on. Man. Thanks.

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<v Speaker 2>This episode is brought to you by Uphold, which is

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