WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:40.560 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:46.280 John F. Kennedy's life is promoted by sentimental myth makers 8 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:51.399 as pure legend, but a sinister shadow lies across his life. 9 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:56.439 JFK's death was such a shocking event that the vivid 10 00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:00.359 memory of his assassination still blinds us to much of 11 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:04.680 what went before. It is almost always seen through the 12 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:09.040 prism of that single terrible day in Dallas, obscuring the 13 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:14.439 dark corners of his life and government for JFK power 14 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:18.959 with soundbites over policy, the White House a fairytale castle, 15 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:25.040 and the President a hyper sexualized movie star. As with Hollywood, 16 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:31.159 the willing suspension of belief was required, Reality imposes no 17 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:37.359 such limits, Drawing on essential new material, Reckless shatters the 18 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:41.640 secrets and lives with a revelatory true life thriller focusing 19 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:46.200 on RFK and Robert F. Kennedy both before and after 20 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:51.480 they bought the White House. All the usual suspects from 21 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:55.799 FBI titan Jay Agar Hoover and billionaire Howard Hughes to 22 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:00.760 CIA rogue agents and mob hitman appear in a narrative 23 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:04.799 which sweeps from wartime London to the salons of Washington, 24 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:08.759 from the bedrooms of Hollywood to the torture chambers and 25 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:13.599 jungles of Central America, and on to revolutionary Cuba and 26 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:19.319 the tragic, bloody political carousel of Vietnam. The book that 27 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:23.800 we're featuring this evening is Reckless, Sex, Lies and JFK 28 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:30.080 with my special guest, investigative journalist and author Douglas Thompson. 29 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:33.800 Good evening, and welcome to the program, and thank you 30 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:36.520 very much for this interview. Douglas Thompson. 31 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:39.680 Hello Dan, thank you for having me. It's pleasure. 32 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:45.240 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book, Reckless. 33 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:48.960 That's great. Thank you. Yes, it's been a long time 34 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:51.599 in writing, so it's good to it's out now in 35 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:56.240 the bookshops and people are reacting to it and getting 36 00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:59.400 another side of the the whole history of well a 37 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:02.680 little history of America, but mainly of course of John F. 38 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:03.919 Kennedy and his family. 39 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:08.000 Yes, as you do in the book. Just to start 40 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:12.400 in a very dramatic fashion, you have Havana, Cuba, nineteen 41 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:16.879 fifty seven and Santo Trafficanti Junior on the phone with 42 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:21.759 his lawyer complaining tell us about what his complaint is. 43 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:27.120 Yeah, Traffic County, who was one of the big mob 44 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:31.639 mafia figures of America in the fifties and into the sixties, 45 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:36.759 was very angry. He had tried to set up then 46 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:40.159 young Senator John F. Kennedy in a kind of honey 47 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:46.039 trap in Havana, using some very attractive and very alluring 48 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:52.680 Cuban girls to entice Kennedy on the colleague of his 49 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:57.080 into set in a hotel room. Traffic County has set 50 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:01.759 up a camera set up the next door hotel room 51 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:06.400 where the kind of see through see through wall, and 52 00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:10.400 the whole plan was to photograph and compromise Kennedy and 53 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:14.280 blackmail them into the way into the future. The problem 54 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:19.480 was that traffic Aunty's helpers hadn't quite got the technology 55 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:24.079 correct and so the photographs never ever came out, much 56 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:27.040 to his ignignation, and that's why he was onto his 57 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:30.079 lawyer complaining. It's basically saying, if I'd only got the 58 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:32.759 son of a bitch on camera, things would have been 59 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:37.319 much different. He typically of the mob. Of course, he 60 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:41.360 didn't blame his own kind of actions or his own 61 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:46.519 management of the situation. He blamed the the colleagues who 62 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:48.920 had tried to set up this minops mini camera to 63 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.800 work and and stop, you know, and stop Kennedy literally 64 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:58.560 and sexual action. Of course, he the colleague, was admonished 65 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:01.839 in a nasting way. But if Kennedy himself and his 66 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:06.519 friends just carried on without any knowledge that they had 67 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:10.959 been so close to being compromised, and I would think 68 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:16.439 you imagine a future completely ruined before it had really began. 69 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:17.959 In politics in America. 70 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:23.360 Take us back, take our audience back to the origins 71 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.759 of Joseph Kennedy, as you do in the book. 72 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:33.040 They Well They Kennedy. John Kennedy's behavior in Havana was 73 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:36.759 very much a mirror of his own father's behavior, going 74 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:39.920 back into the deals in the nineteen twenties and to Boston, 75 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:46.800 and to his whole attitude to life, his attitude of entitlement. 76 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:50.879 Old Joe Kennedy had a great gift for making money, 77 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:54.800 didn't care how he made it made up through connections 78 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:59.720 with mob figures, mob figures like Santra traffic ante's father 79 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.639 who was also a traffic ante. And throughout the years, 80 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:14.279 Joe Kennedy manipulated people, he manipulated banks, he manipulated situations, 81 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.920 and he was it's now become clear. It's always been 82 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:22.839 rumored that he was a kind of bootlegger during Prohibition, 83 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:25.720 but over the years it's certainly been clear and clear, 84 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:30.240 and certainly with freedom of information in the last ten 85 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:34.160 fifteen years, there's been more detail come out about how 86 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:39.040 close he was working with the mob, working and running 87 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:42.800 his own booze which he imported into It came through 88 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:45.240 into Boston, that came into New York, it came down 89 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:50.680 from Canada and some of the most prestigious speakeasies, kind 90 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:54.480 of legendary names of going back to the nineteen twenties, 91 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:56.639 of all those you think of all these old Warner 92 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:00.680 Brothers gangster movies with Cagney and George Rapt, Kennedy could 93 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:02.680 have been, could have been a player in any of 94 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:08.240 these these movie scripts. He was that involved, but kept 95 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:13.560 through again through connections through manipulation, as the sailing with 96 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.279 really was his middle name of the press. He became 97 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:21.480 very friendly with Walter Winchell, so, you know, with Kennedy, 98 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:25.600 if there was rumors or scandal about him, that was 99 00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:29.199 all quelled in the peer and favors were given. So 100 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:32.680 Kennedy would give Winchell and others, including some of the 101 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:35.879 big papers that Washington Post, New York Times, would give 102 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:39.079 them the dirt and other people to keep himself looking 103 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:42.759 very well, not squeaky clean, but looking clean enough to 104 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:45.319 stay out, but to stay out of jail, stay out 105 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:52.480 of compromise. And he his his affiliations were always towards 106 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:56.000 those in power. So he did favors, you know, with 107 00:07:56.120 --> 00:07:59.079 mobsters who were in power. He did favors for politicians 108 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:01.800 who were in power. Early went on to do that 109 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:04.759 and in a grand way with Roosevelt, who he supported 110 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:08.079 for the presidency. Where at the same time, all the 111 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:13.800 time thinking of his own political ambition. When and of 112 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:20.399 course the Boston dynasty begins through Joe Kennedy, they'd have 113 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.800 been dirty tricks with his, with Fitzgerald's, with his wife 114 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:31.079 Rose Fitzgerald's family in Boston politics. But later on he 115 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:34.720 gets in there and he is using the money all 116 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:38.919 the time to buy influence to buy votes, to buy elections, 117 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:42.360 and this went on, would and would go on for decades, 118 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.600 and his family. His big ambition was for his eldest son, 119 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:54.759 Joe Kennedy, to ultimately become president, and Joe Jr. Was 120 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:58.879 very much trained for it, educated for it, as in 121 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:03.559 second son, John Kennedy was in the slipstream of this, 122 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:09.120 also being well educated and prepared for political office, but 123 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:11.840 not the high office that he's that his older brother 124 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:17.960 was destined for the Second World War. When America entered 125 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:22.159 the Second World War, very much against Joe Kennedy's fearsome, 126 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:29.039 very fearsome opposition and lobbying against and Kennedy was sort 127 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:31.200 of bought off in a way with giving the US 128 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:36.399 ambassador to London. So he's in London. He's also at 129 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:41.240 that I'm still fighting American involvement in the war. He's 130 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:50.399 championing appeasement. He's upsetting then MPs like Winston Churchill and 131 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:55.840 Noodling to a degree, say Noodling, he's flirting with Hitler 132 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:02.759 and trying to really see peace with America and letting 133 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:06.039 Europe get on with the war and not involve the States. 134 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:10.000 He did his reputation no good at all because of this. 135 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:13.440 At the same time, he had the tragic thing of 136 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:18.679 his son. Joe was flying with experimental flight with a 137 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:22.679 lot of tea twenty thousand tons of TNT on board, right, 138 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.960 and that exploded over England, over Suffolk in England. So 139 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:32.120 Joe Kennedy is tragically killed. Joe Kennedy Jr. That is, 140 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:35.240 Joe Kennedy Senior, then goes back to the States with 141 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:40.600 his tale between his legs, really but to keep him 142 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:42.960 tweet and keep him sort of in the tent rather 143 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:47.360 than outside the tent. Roosevelt looks after him with appointments there. 144 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:51.519 But at that point, of course, the mantle of who 145 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:57.080 will become president of the family goes to JFK. And 146 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:01.840 that's where again a whole not new but a newly 147 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:09.440 revived campaign, political campaign begins, all centered again on Kennedy Kennedy, 148 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.639 this time John Jack Kennedy and centered on Boston and 149 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:18.519 getting him into into his high political on the ladder, 150 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:19.919 the high political office. 151 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:23.879 At that point, let's go back, because I think it's 152 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:30.399 very important for the behavior of Joe Kennedy. Joe Kennedy 153 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:36.440 talking about his flirtation with Hollywood. You talk about before prohibition, 154 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:41.559 making money in the movie business, having affairs with Hollywood starlets. 155 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:46.759 Tell us about this behavior, this risky, reckless behavior that 156 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:49.840 she's demonstrated in this book. Reckless. 157 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:56.919 Yeah, Joe Kennedy, it's all in Hollywood, an opportunity to 158 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:59.679 make money. He looked out there, he looked to the coast, 159 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.120 and he had he had money, He had the banker's money, 160 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:05.919 and he went up there and he thought he could 161 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:11.320 do better running a studio, making movies, making money. Also, 162 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:14.799 he was away from home. He had the lights of 163 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:18.600 I mean, it was starlet's day and night. The philandering 164 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:23.720 went on constantly. He became quite enamored with Gloria Swanson, 165 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.200 who was then the biggest star female leaning lady in 166 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:32.320 the world. He took over her kind of love life 167 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:37.879 and her professional life, and in terms of her business 168 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:43.200 and making films. They were successful films, but basically Joe 169 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.480 Joe Kennedy took all the money, made an absolute fortune 170 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:50.519 in Hollywood, managed to all but bankrupt Gloria Swanson in 171 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:57.039 the process was involved in rumors that he'd had people murdered, 172 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:00.440 which was notch was was a nonsense, but it was. 173 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:03.799 He was such a disliked character and such a reckless 174 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:08.360 and maverick in Hollywood that the whole of Hollywood was 175 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:10.919 desperate to believe that he was going to be found 176 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:16.279 guilty and stuck in the slammer. But his behavior with 177 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:19.799 Glorious Swanson as the son of other women was just 178 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:23.720 when you look back now, it seems beyond the It 179 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:29.320 seems beyond the pair, because that by that time a 180 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:35.360 large family, by then it had eight children. Rose Kennedy 181 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:40.799 looked the other way. He was having affairs with all 182 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:43.440 with just about. He seemed to be with everybody, every 183 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:45.120 woman he met, he seemed to go to bed with. 184 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:50.639 But the ongoing relationship with Glorias Swanson was was quite incredible. 185 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:54.320 He took the family. To appease the family, he took 186 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.639 them all to the South of France, and it was 187 00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:01.000 kind of camped out there in some great stuff and luxury. 188 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:04.759 And next door to him in the South of France, 189 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:08.440 also staying in the next door villa was Marlinie Dietrich 190 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:14.320 with her with her husband and his lover, his male 191 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:21.159 lover and her family. And of course then Joe Kennedy 192 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:24.000 being Joe Kennedy, and I suppose district being Dietrich. They 193 00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:28.200 begin an affair then, and during that time there's a 194 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:34.080 big society dance to science. The evening is staged, which 195 00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:38.799 Jack Kennedy is then, I think then twenty one, around 196 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:43.320 about twenty one, and he is there and is entertained 197 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:45.759 along with all the other kids and the people that 198 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:48.720 sat there, and of course MARLINI Ditrich dances with him 199 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:51.320 and sticks her hand down his trousers and tries to 200 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.639 arouse him. Well, and she's been sleeping with the father. 201 00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:59.679 I mean, it's just kind of beggar's belief when you 202 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:01.759 see when you kind of see it in black and 203 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:05.120 white now and you think, of course the influence on 204 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:11.200 John Kennedy then, who later on sees his father in 205 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:16.519 a kind of sexual clinch with glorious wantson. You do 206 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.559 wonder just how much his own his own later for thundering. 207 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.200 It was just a kind of stepping stone, you know, 208 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.799 in his mind, it's just something you did as part 209 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:27.519 of being a man. 210 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:34.240 Let's talk about some of the investments that Joe Kennedy 211 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:38.480 undertook with his mob friends. What kinds of things did 212 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.360 he invest in with them? 213 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:47.679 The main Joe Kennedy's main investments where in obviously during 214 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:51.919 provision he was in he was very much into importing 215 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:56.080 and selling illegal boost and supplying it rather than just 216 00:15:56.200 --> 00:16:00.879 being the man front man. After provision ended, UH, he 217 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:04.639 went into the booze business because he obviously had the connections. 218 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:11.759 And they also bought up very big real estate clubs Florida, 219 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:17.000 Midwest money into that. There was money into Boston into 220 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:20.320 clubs and warehouse a lot of warehousing as well, because 221 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:24.279 obviously distribution is in a sense he was ahead of 222 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:28.879 Amazon by UH decades and that they built the contribution 223 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.960 centers for for booze and for you know, any kind 224 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:36.480 of contraband. But the result but nightclubs he was involved 225 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:41.320 in buying into nightclubs or a mob run he had percentages. 226 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:46.240 And then he was also into into Las Vegas and 227 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:50.639 into putting money into clubs and in Vegas and mainly 228 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.039 into one, you know, some of the big casinos. 229 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:57.759 Let's talk about what was learned and what was gained 230 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:00.879 in Honduras, the country of Honduras be what we talk about. 231 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:05.920 What was the interest of the mob in Cuba and. 232 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:10.880 Well in Honduras there was it was it's basically they 233 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:17.039 the mob that mafia worth gambling the mafia's intention, and 234 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:21.119 it goes back to, you know, through Mary Landski basically 235 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:23.680 the chairman of the board and the moneyman the chances 236 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:28.160 of the exchequer. For the Mob always thought gambling was 237 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:33.680 the way they could expand worldwide. It begins in the 238 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.920 carpet you know, the carpet joints of America Midwest. You know, 239 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.000 then they have Vegas interest in their starting up Vegas. 240 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:46.279 But then Honduras was it was a wide open. Guatemala 241 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:50.319 was wide open. They tried to get into Asia through 242 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:52.200 that way with the idea was to get in from 243 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:57.079 there and then get into Asia. And again Guatemala led 244 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:03.400 to Cuba. Cuba again was just with Batista who was 245 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:10.680 then running the country was corrupt again manipulated into taking 246 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:15.759 a chunk of the gambling with the mob. So it's 247 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:20.960 a money machine gambling. Gambling attracted the people that could 248 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:24.519 run and be tough, and that's what Joe Kennedy was, 249 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:27.720 So he's investing in much of this as the mob is, 250 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.160 and of course all the things that go along, all 251 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:38.599 the prostitution, the protection, rackets, the illegalities where the money 252 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.319 is made and the skin is made, all kind of 253 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:45.240 runs along with gambling. So you've got in sort of 254 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:51.240 in tandem, you've got the mafia's empire is running in 255 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:56.839 a very very swift way through the world, much as 256 00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:01.599 Kennedy's politics and business are running very very quickly as 257 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:04.039 well and his influence. So you've got that kind of 258 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.279 too great dynasty. You've got the Kennedy dynasty, and you've 259 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:11.880 got the Mob with their engines both fully you know, 260 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:17.039 fully steamed up, and they're running through that early past 261 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:21.960 half century of America, uh and then expanding as America 262 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:27.480 expanded its influence throughout, you know, into Asia and elsewhere, 263 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:30.799 the Mob were doing the same thing and and still are. 264 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:34.039 I mean the Mob still you know, Aimed came into 265 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:39.240 the UK, went into into Africa, they had they had 266 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:43.400 casinos running running early days in Russia. So it's it's 267 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.480 it's it's expansionist. And strangely enough, for Joe Kennedy trying 268 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:50.799 to be an isolationist during the war is completely expansionist 269 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.880 when it comes to running as a business empire making 270 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.640 a dollar. And that's the point, both with Joe Kennedy 271 00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:59.799 and with the Mafia where you got into trouble was 272 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:02.839 there was somebody got in the way of either of 273 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:06.000 them in the business of making a dollar. If you 274 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:07.640 let them just get on with it, there was never 275 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:13.759 any trouble for people in their vicinity or working with them. 276 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:18.400 It was only when authority or someone else you know, 277 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:21.319 arrival came on the scene and wanted to get in 278 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:21.680 the way. 279 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:28.839 Tell us about the government's involvement and why they despite 280 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:34.799 Batista's cruelty and violence and murder, they still like Batista 281 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:39.119 as the head of Cuba, and why they Yeah. 282 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:49.119 Well they basically American governments have consistently supported figures, be 283 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:54.079 they dictators, be they cruel dictators, who have been anti communists. 284 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.839 You know, we know it throughout the kind of history 285 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:00.160 you know, Central American so on. But very much Batista 286 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:05.279 was a buffer against the the the castro, the shape 287 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.839 of Guevera politics, which were the intelligence was telling them 288 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:12.279 that was coming along. They're very much the same happened 289 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:17.799 in Guatemala. The government there was believed to be going well, 290 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:20.960 not believed it was. It was becoming very socialist. They 291 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:25.400 knew the president was a believer in giving everybody in 292 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.640 the country a piece of land, a share, you know, 293 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:33.279 a share, and their own lives and daily daily kind 294 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.799 of likely of making a livelihood, and this was frowned upon. 295 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:42.680 So he he is assassinated in Guatemala and the new 296 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.000 kind of biggerhead has comes in who is is far 297 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:51.480 more equable towards the politics of Washington. It's a repeat, 298 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:55.759 It's repeated a lot along the way. The mob has 299 00:21:55.759 --> 00:22:00.039 a hand in helping the governments. It's thought that the 300 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.200 mob were we're kind of in the dark all the 301 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:08.759 went through, but Lucky Liciano during the Second World War 302 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:13.039 were partnered up with the government to protect the docks 303 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:15.799 in New York because he had the influence as he 304 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.839 keep the mobsters in there, and they kept the communists 305 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:21.400 and they sort of what they saw as left wing 306 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:26.079 threats came down. So that continued after the war, continues 307 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:30.799 in Cuba, well, continue in Guatemala, Honduras, and it certainly 308 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:35.880 goes into Cuba until you know, until Castro takes power, 309 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:37.759 until Batista is overthrown. 310 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:41.960 You talk about it, and I guess people believe they 311 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.559 know quite a bit about this, but it it should 312 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:50.279 be discussed. Is the the idea about Cuba and the 313 00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:54.000 assassination of Castro and those plans. 314 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:56.400 The mariad, I mean there were so many we've kind 315 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:59.960 of grown to see it kind of almost in a 316 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:04.960 starturday night live way, with kind of exploding cigars and 317 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:09.000 you know, flying bats flying in and dropping poison on 318 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:12.359 his food and all kinds of crazy schemes that came up, 319 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:16.480 and we think that's how ridiculous and now amusing. Actually 320 00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:19.720 when you go through all the CIA documents through a 321 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:22.839 freedom of information, when you go through the files, there 322 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:27.400 is probably not a wacky idea that wasn't put forward 323 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:31.920 as a plan to kill Castro, and still astonishes me 324 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:35.759 how Castro survived because there were so many different plots 325 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:39.240 and so many ways that he was going to be 326 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:45.240 eliminated were very much extreme prejudice, but nothing ever happened. 327 00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:51.160 The mob again, this guy called Johnny Rosselli, who was 328 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:54.200 the mob's man in Hollywood from from the forties onwards. 329 00:23:54.920 --> 00:24:00.119 He was a very much a killer, cold blood it 330 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:05.079 very quick but club, very street smart cluver, and he 331 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:11.839 worked with the CIA, the FBI was monitored by by 332 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:17.319 Core Mike Rothmother's Los Angeles Police department. They kind of 333 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:20.319 watched him all times because what he Rosselli was doing 334 00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:25.720 was usually what was was important in terms of heeneous 335 00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:33.079 crime and manipulation of events, and Rosselli was recruited to 336 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:36.880 hit Castro and to set it all up. There have 337 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:41.640 been so many different variations of of what happened or 338 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.880 what tried to happen, but basically they there were several attempts. 339 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:51.119 They was a sniper was taken into Cuba to Havana 340 00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:56.839 and nearly got a shot off Castro. There was poisoned 341 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.680 foods through an intrigue with a chef who was kind 342 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:06.079 of blackmailed or compromised sexually. There was two or three 343 00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:12.119 attempts to kidnap Castro. One attempt in fact, they kidnap 344 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:16.039 somebody who looked like Castro. They you could fill a 345 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:21.759 book with all the various color It's like the Keiftone Cops. 346 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:28.200 The way things went on very very basically. Everything went 347 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:31.480 wrong because there were so many people trying to deny 348 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.799 that they were trying to do anything. You had the 349 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.480 government who didn't want anybody to know that the mob 350 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:39.599 were involved. You had the mob trying to cover up 351 00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:42.319 their involvement as well, because they want to keep in 352 00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:48.079 They're still they're playing two sides. They'd still the mob's 353 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:50.839 most important thing to them was to get back into 354 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.559 Cuba and get the gambling going can And they always 355 00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:56.000 thought if you know, if Patista was and then maybe 356 00:25:56.039 --> 00:26:00.240 they could do a deal with Castro. Their belief to 357 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.279 this day is that everybody is corruptible, so why wouldn't 358 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:06.119 Castro be at some point. So it's a kind of 359 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:12.640 mad cap carry on throughout the whole thing. And basically 360 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:15.240 Castor when he is in power and when he takes power, 361 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:20.079 and when Kennedy becomes president, is it's virtually coming his 362 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:23.359 nose at him. And it makes the point to Kennedy 363 00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:30.640 publicly in a speech that Castro says on the record 364 00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:35.680 that Cuba is no Guatemala. And of course, in Guatemala, 365 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:42.160 the president had been killed in Paratemala by supposedly one 366 00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:47.799 of his own bodyguards who supposedly took his own life 367 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:54.079 and who supposedly was a left wing communist sympathizer with 368 00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:58.279 ties to Moscow, and pamphlets were found in his apartment 369 00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:06.519 and supposedly commit indications between the killer, the assassin, and Moscow. 370 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:10.880 As it turned out when everybody investigated, there seemed to 371 00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:14.839 be no connection between the bodyguard who supposedly did the 372 00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:21.920 killing and any of this supposed communist sympathies. Basically, he 373 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:25.279 was the patsy, he was the poor guy. He was 374 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:27.039 the one who was found guilty, and the case was 375 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.640 closed and the new president was put in. But if 376 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:34.160 you look at the circumstances, and you look at Onto 377 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:37.480 Dallas and you know not about many years later, six 378 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:41.720 years later, the mirror, it kind of mirrors. It looks 379 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:46.079 like a dry run when you with hindsight, it looks 380 00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:48.000 like a dry run for the Kennedy assassination. 381 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:53.279 Let's get back to given the behavior, the risky sexual 382 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:58.680 behavior the JFK exhibited, there are not only the mob 383 00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:01.799 trying to set up up in honey traps and have 384 00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:06.759 their prostitutes talking to JFK and being involved with him, 385 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:10.000 but also that the government you mentioned the l A 386 00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:15.039 p D's Department O c I D gathering information on 387 00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:19.960 stars and criminals for their own for their own purpose. 388 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:23.799 But given that the behavior of JFK tell us about 389 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:26.359 the people that want to have him compromised. 390 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:32.559 What they want is leverage with with with a powerful 391 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:36.480 figure in government. And so basically it's it is the 392 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:39.759 mob and his and political rivals. But you've also got 393 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:46.640 foreign countries you've got there was certainly uh during the war, 394 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:51.920 Kennedy had an affair with a woman who was suspected 395 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.720 of being an that's the sympathizer who'd had connections with 396 00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:59.400 with Hitler, Watches, a journalist and so on, so that 397 00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:02.279 they had the history of that. He's almost got thrown 398 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:05.839 out the Navy through his father, through Joe Kennedy's influence, 399 00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.319 he stayed there. He was moved out of Washington to 400 00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:12.240 a less sensitive area. He continued the affair. He continued 401 00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:15.599