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Speaker 1: Good morning, Joe. How are you doing today. I'm doing great.

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Speaker 2: I understand you're from Charlotte. I was just in Charlotte

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for two weeks. We could have gotten together for coffee.

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Speaker 1: Oh and really dug into this. What were we doing?

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Speaker 2: Well? I'm doing another show for Netflix, but I can't

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tell you what it's about, but Charlotte plays a big

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role in it.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, Hey, I got to tell you something. You're

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shaking me up with this new documentary on Netflix, Conversations

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with a Killer, because right away, I don't know why

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it is. The Son of Sam has always reminded me

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of Brian Coburger, and it's because, I mean, I don't

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know if it's the stare. I don't know what it is,

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because I guess the mystery is is that could Brian

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have gone on to do several of these if he

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wouldn't have been caught.

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Speaker 2: That's a great point, and I think he could have,

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you know. And the thing about a lot of these people,

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particularly Burkwitz and Coburger, is like present as so normal

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in real life. That's what's scary about it. You know,

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we want to think that serial killers, and I think

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Coburger would have gone on to become a serial killer.

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We want to think that serial killers like look and

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act evil all the time, and that like, you know,

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when they're walking down the street, they look at they

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you know, they're they're dripping with blood and you want

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it and the street to avoid the fate of becoming

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a victim. But the reality is most people who do evil,

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and particularly Berkowitz, you know, just look like the normal

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guy next door. And that's what's so frightening about it

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and why I like to do these shows as a

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cautionary tale that you know, the people who do evil

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in this world are the people you least expect and

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most often trust, and that people really need to earn

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your trust before you just trust somebody. Just because somebody is,

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you know, seems nice and trustworthy, you shouldn't trust them.

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In fact, there's a fascinating anecdote in the show because

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Berkowitz worked for the post Office and he's sitting around

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the post office with colleagues and they're all speculator about

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who the son of Sam could be and what his

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motivations are, and they're all having wild theories about what

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kind of person. And David turns to them and says,

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you know, he's probably just a regular guy like you

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or me, and that's that's that And Coburger fits that

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bill too.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Joe Berlinger coming

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up next from Netflix. We've got Conversations with a Killer.

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Joe Berlinger talks about it. But the thing is about

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with your with Conversations with a Killer is that how

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did you learn to even trust what was being shared?

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Because he liked to play games. He you know that,

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you know, I'm I'm demonized, only to realize he was

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just trying to create confusion by using that term.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've I've listened to other tapes of

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Berkowitz and one of the reasons I've decided to do

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this show is that this particular set of tapes, which

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were done by a journalist by the name of Jack

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Jones at the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle at the time.

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You know, Rochester, New York is upstate New York and

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it's fifty miles from Attica Prison where Berkerwitz was incarcerated.

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And Berkerwitz reached out to Jack Jones wanting to tell

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his side of the story, and Jack did a masterful

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job of interviewing him in such a way that I

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found him to be very truthful and compelling, and sure

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enough in these tapes as far back as nineteen eighty,

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he was disavowing the idea that he was, you know,

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being being spoken to. You know, the story of So Sam,

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for the listeners who don't know, is that, you know,

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Burkewitz claimed that a six thousand year old demon was

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talking to him, instructing him to kill through his neighbor's dog.

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His neighbor's name was Sam Carr, and so that hence

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the son of Sam, and this dog was commanding him

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to do these killings. In these tapes, he admits that

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that was a ruse, just to make people think he

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was crazy. He admits that the week before he was arrested,

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you know, he staged his apartment to make it look

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like a crazy guy lived there, and you know, did

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scrawlings all over the wall, punch holes in the wall,

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cut out pictures victims. So I found these tapes to

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be very very credible, and nothing we put in the

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show is in something we you know, we always corroborate

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through other means. So he was, you know, in this instance,

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he was quite It was quite compelling and truthful. But

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you know, these guys are often unreliable narrators of their

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own story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, they always tell us so don't you know,

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you can't forget history. And this is one of those

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moments because when you sit here and you realize this

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happened forty seven years ago, and you bring it up

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and it feels like it just happened last week.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One. You know, one of the reasons I wanted

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to do the show is I view this case as

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one of the most important cases in the history of

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true crime, because, as I think people know or we've

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never had, true crime has never been more popular. I mean,

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people just can't seem to get enough of it. And

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I trace that fascination back to this case. Because Berkowitz

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had the entire city of New York ripped in fear,

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manipulated and played with the press in ways that were new.

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The press was only too willing to comply. And you

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know the famous Jimmy Breslin, who was a you know,

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staple in New York of one of the major papers.

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You know, they wrote letters to each other. Breslin kind

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of egged him on on the anniversary of the first

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death of death, you know, give yourself up, which some

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people interpreted as he was egging him on to like

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do another killing. You know, I think the codependency between

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people who love crime and the media only too willing

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to serve it up, which I include myself by the way.

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I mean, I'm it was kind of a self reflexive

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exploration here, you know, I think this this era of

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of of crime as big news really you know, started

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with with this case.

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Speaker 1: Well, please come back to this show anytime in the future.

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The door is always going to be open for you.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate it, man, Thank you, Thank you.