Speaker 1: Meaning a man like this man letting butterfly flapping his
Speaker 1: wan big band in the forest. Man, it gonna cause
Speaker 1: the tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Many nobody seen,
Speaker 1: nobody else see. You don't need no man blad. You
Speaker 1: followed another story and you got back in fact that
Speaker 1: that's man got blackly name on the Panama Man.
Speaker 2: Man, you don't don't better? Man?
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: All right, Philip Foodoo, welcome to the jay burd and
Speaker 2: show how you doing?
Speaker 1: Man? I'm doing well?
Speaker 2: Man?
Speaker 1: How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm I'm doing great. I uh here for another book review.
Speaker 2: I read Blood Memory, which is one of your books.
Speaker 2: And uh, I will say I get recommended a lot
Speaker 2: of books on Twitter dot com and most of them
Speaker 2: are really bad. And I realized starting off a book
Speaker 2: review by saying this is not bad sounds like I
Speaker 2: am damning it by faint praise. But that is a
Speaker 2: notable occurrence in my inbox. So yeah, man, I really
Speaker 2: enjoyed this book. We'll get into it later. But before
Speaker 2: we do that, you know, as much as you're comfortable, Well,
Speaker 2: who are you? And how do you get started writing?
Speaker 1: Yeah? So it all started when I came to Twitter
Speaker 1: in the sort of mid to late twenty one. I
Speaker 1: started writing these like semi long form threads, back before
Speaker 1: you could do that in one tweet. I would string
Speaker 1: like twenty six twenty seven tweets together, and these really
Speaker 1: oppressively long threads about history and military history and topics
Speaker 1: like that. And people seem to like him. And I
Speaker 1: made contact with a guy named Mark Sibley who had written.
Speaker 1: At the time, he had written one book in the
Speaker 1: Mongol Moon series. He's since written second, and the third
Speaker 1: is promised to come out sometime in probably twenty sixty.
Speaker 1: But he asked me to write a short story. He
Speaker 1: knew I had a background helping some military friends with
Speaker 1: their various fiction and nonfiction endeavors. One of the hazards
Speaker 1: of being illiterate infantryman is they all ask you to
Speaker 1: help write things for them. But that was a great experience,
Speaker 1: and it's a great time helping my friends, and so
Speaker 1: I started to do it again. I wrote I wrote
Speaker 1: a short story for Mark for his publisher. They were
Speaker 1: going to do a sort of a close action of
Speaker 1: short stories, and the task was write one short story
Speaker 1: about ten thousand words. I wrote three, and one of
Speaker 1: them happened to be like forty thousand words and the
Speaker 1: editor said, you know, can you cut this down to ten?
Speaker 1: And I said, don't you'd delete a single word out
Speaker 1: of this. We're going to have words. And he said,
Speaker 1: all right, the other option has turned into a book,
Speaker 1: so can you add eighty thousand words to it and
Speaker 1: we'll call it a novel because it's sort of built
Speaker 1: for that, that has the bones and the structure to
Speaker 1: be expanded on a little bit. I took it up
Speaker 1: and said, yeah, I'll turn this into a novel, and
Speaker 1: I that's where we are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the structure of it is really it's honestly,
Speaker 2: it's really sort of rapturing because basically, and as per
Speaker 2: usual of my book reviews, we're not going to get
Speaker 2: into spoilers, not going to do it but blow by blow.
Speaker 2: But it's basically a giant chase the entire time, and
Speaker 2: it's incredibly compelling reading right, You just kind of get
Speaker 2: sucked along by the narrative there. And there are two
Speaker 2: things that I'm curious to get you know, your thoughts
Speaker 2: on which is one like where did this idea come from?
Speaker 2: Is it something that had been bouncing in your head
Speaker 2: for years? Is it something you just sort of had
Speaker 2: a little bit and you developed it as you wrote.
Speaker 2: And then two. The other thing that's unique about this
Speaker 2: book is is the setting right sub Saharan Africa, And
Speaker 2: so I'm curious to get your thoughts on, well, where
Speaker 2: did the setting come from? And well where did this
Speaker 2: whole you know, chase, where did that idea come from?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And it I think one of the things about
Speaker 1: writing and I read Obviously, I think that's not going
Speaker 1: to surprise anybody, but reading about places that I know
Speaker 1: or or places that aren't foreign to me just fail
Speaker 1: to capture my imagination in a way that I would
Speaker 1: want to capture someone's imagination with something I write. There's
Speaker 1: always going to be this you know, oh, I'm from
Speaker 1: I'm from Kentucky, and if there's a book set in Kentucky,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna nitpick the setting or whatever. Or if I'm
Speaker 1: from you know, La and I read a book about Kentucky,
Speaker 1: I have an idea in my mind of what life
Speaker 1: in Kentucky's like, and so reading this book is always
Speaker 1: going to have this preconceived notion of what it's like.
Speaker 1: I think writing about Africa is as close as you
Speaker 1: can get to writing about a sci fi world with
Speaker 1: it being real, and it's it's like that for a
Speaker 1: number of reasons. But it's just just a such a
Speaker 1: different setting than what you're used to, and it's just
Speaker 1: such a different place. And one of the things that
Speaker 1: I did is I went through the writing of the
Speaker 1: book was make sure that that Africa remained the character
Speaker 1: you know, when you read books like that or when
Speaker 1: you watch movies like that, you know, and in places
Speaker 1: that most people don't spend a lot of time, like
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, a great book about the
Speaker 1: old features the sea as a character. You know, it's
Speaker 1: not the old Man and the fish, it's the old
Speaker 1: man in the sea. Right, It's this vast expanse of
Speaker 1: nature that you're forced to contend with in addition to
Speaker 1: contending with all the challenges man throws at you. And
Speaker 1: so I wanted to write something that people had to
Speaker 1: use their imagination, and also it made them a little
Speaker 1: in some ways uncomfortable reading about it because they can't
Speaker 1: rely on what they would do or how they would
Speaker 1: go to ground or you know, in the event I
Speaker 1: would find a I would find a you know, a
Speaker 1: gun store, and I would find ammo for myself. But
Speaker 1: there's no gun stores in Zambia, you know, there's there's
Speaker 1: no cabellas that you can go to and raid, right,
Speaker 1: And that's that's one of the things. And also the
Speaker 1: thing that I liked about it is, you know, it's
Speaker 1: certainly not going to be a spoiler, but in the
Speaker 1: Mongol Moon universe, a series of EMPs, he's a nuclear
Speaker 1: attacks knocks out almost all the electronics in Europe and
Speaker 1: North America, and so all of the Mongol Moon Universe
Speaker 1: stories deal with that in their own way, but nothing
Speaker 1: happens to Africa, Like Africa just goes to sleep and
Speaker 1: wakes up and the outside world is just gone, you know,
Speaker 1: you lost the ability to contact Europe or North America.
Speaker 1: And so it's not so much a book about what
Speaker 1: happens when the power goes out. It's a book about
Speaker 1: what happens when the rest of the world goes away
Speaker 1: and how parts of the world are forced to continue
Speaker 1: on after that.
Speaker 2: And I'm glad that you said that about Africa being
Speaker 2: a character, because it's one of my favorite through lines.
Speaker 2: It's part of the reason why I love Louisiana. It's
Speaker 2: not because it's actually a nice place. But you know,
Speaker 2: you read Percy, you read all the Kings meant, and
Speaker 2: the setting becomes a character. You're sort of transported to
Speaker 2: that place. And I, perhaps thankfully have never been to Africa,
Speaker 2: but even just the level of having been to the
Speaker 2: third world, which is a I realize an overly broad term,
Speaker 2: but you know, work with me for a little bit.
Speaker 2: You realize, like it you're almost on another planet. That
Speaker 2: the way that you know, we as kind of quote
Speaker 2: unquote educated Westerners think that normal people act, that's highly
Speaker 2: culturally contextual, right, and you know, if if you step
Speaker 2: into a place that's very very poor, very dysfunctional, that
Speaker 2: has a culture that isn't working, you realize that it
Speaker 2: works off a completely separate set of rules. And I
Speaker 2: thought that was really interesting in this because the broad
Speaker 2: strokes of the narrative is we have this this convoy,
Speaker 2: this kind of motley crew of Americans. Right, there's Cia guys,
Speaker 2: there's the embassy staff that you know, the ambassador, his wife,
Speaker 2: others all in this convoy kind of trying to join
Speaker 2: back up with other Americans being chased by a group
Speaker 2: of Russians. And so yeah, sure, that's the overarching narrative
Speaker 2: that's what happens in this book, that's what pushes it forward.
Speaker 2: But for most of the book, just going by page count,
Speaker 2: the Americans and Russians are separated. They aren't fighting, right,
Speaker 2: They're being kind of pushed along, And so most of
Speaker 2: the interactions are with the locals, right, the Africans and
Speaker 2: also right, you have this kind of fight against just
Speaker 2: the hostile terrain. But I thought it was really interesting
Speaker 2: how it really is this sort of free for all zone.
Speaker 2: So you have you know, technically hostile forces, Congolese rebels
Speaker 2: or you know, people who are maybe maybe not allied
Speaker 2: with the government, who in one instance want nothing to
Speaker 2: do with this, it's not their fight, and in another instance,
Speaker 2: for other reasons, become incredibly hostile. And I thought that
Speaker 2: you portrayed the kind of cultural differences, you know, the
Speaker 2: gap between the kind of Western and I guess you
Speaker 2: could say kind of like broader African culture really well,
Speaker 2: really accurately in that. So I'm curious, right when you
Speaker 2: were planning this book out, how much were you thinking
Speaker 2: about that that kind of culture shock because and I'll
Speaker 2: give you a more specific example, I think that the
Speaker 2: character of im not gonna remember her name sorry about that, Philip.
Speaker 2: But the ambassador's wife is kind of a particularly interesting character,
Speaker 2: and so I'm curious, right, like, what was your inspiration
Speaker 2: with that? What were you trying to do with her
Speaker 2: in this book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's there's a couple of things that I'm
Speaker 1: glad you picked up on. The actual conflict between the
Speaker 1: Russians and the Americans is a very small part of
Speaker 1: the actual storyline. And you can make the case that
Speaker 1: none of the Americans except one who learns it about,
Speaker 1: you know, a third of the way through, even though
Speaker 1: the Russians are chasing them. You know, they meet the
Speaker 1: Russians and then run into them one time, and they
Speaker 1: get away from them, and most of the convoy say, say,
Speaker 1: one guy has no reason to believe or even suspect
Speaker 1: that the Russians are looking for that. And so I
Speaker 1: think that's a that aspect of it is sort of
Speaker 1: a fog of war thing that if you pick up
Speaker 1: on it, you kind of understand how the world works, right,
Speaker 1: because a lot of books will will tell you and
Speaker 1: a lot of books will, you know, show that relationship
Speaker 1: from both sides, and it will say, you know, everyone knows.
Speaker 1: And so there's this there's this chase and one side
Speaker 1: doesn't even know they're being chased, and I think it
Speaker 1: adds to the tension a little bit. And her name
Speaker 1: was Nala, the Ambassador's wife. But one of the things
Speaker 1: about the book is that the book is about people, right,
Speaker 1: normal people. And one of the things that that sort
Speaker 1: of irks me about modern media, and we were talking
Speaker 1: about a little bit before, is it ever one in
Speaker 1: modern media right now seems to be a superhero in
Speaker 1: some way, like they seem to have some sort of superpower.
Speaker 1: You know, you get obviously the Marvel characters who all
Speaker 1: have their superpowers, or the the Jack Reacher type characters,
Speaker 1: who are you know, just mammoth people with brains that
Speaker 1: are better than everyone else's. You know, the Black Widows
Speaker 1: and the Black Sparrows or whatever they're called that are
Speaker 1: on Netflix. Now everyone's a Special Forces Delta guy or
Speaker 1: you know, some sort of super advanced CIA person, like
Speaker 1: everyone's got some special power. But looking back at like
Speaker 1: ancient literature and then some of the American stories, they're
Speaker 1: mostly about people, and I think people link to that
Speaker 1: a little bit more than if you know, we're talking
Speaker 1: about Captain America and Captain America even starts as a
Speaker 1: as a normal person and he's made into something super
Speaker 1: But if you look at people who have these superpowers,
Speaker 1: how do how do you, as a as a young male,
Speaker 1: relate to that character? Can you? I don't know that
Speaker 1: you can, Like you can idolize thatcharacter, but you you
Speaker 1: can never structure your life or the course of your
Speaker 1: life in a way to become a superhero superpowers, right,
Speaker 1: But you could structure your life in a way to
Speaker 1: become one of the people in this story because these
Speaker 1: are all normal people. You know they have sure, they
Speaker 1: as the military experience where they work at the CIA,
Speaker 1: but lots of people do that, right, that's not a
Speaker 1: that's not a superpower, that's a that's a thing that
Speaker 1: lots of regular people do. And everyone in the book
Speaker 1: has sort of a mirror character or a mirror plot line.
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's good Africans and bad Africans. There's
Speaker 1: there's good Americans and bad Americans. There's not a lot
Speaker 1: of good Russians. But but there are competent Russians and
Speaker 1: incompetent Russians, right, And so you see this this balance
Speaker 1: between characters because that's sort of how the how the
Speaker 1: world works. And I think Nala, the Ambassador's wife, more
Speaker 1: than anyone in the book, learns more and it has
Speaker 1: more of a character are character development than almost any
Speaker 1: other character in the book, right, because she starts off
Speaker 1: as this this really you know, stereotypical blacks liberal who
Speaker 1: just you know, hates everything that America does overseas and
Speaker 1: things we have this this cultural guilt that all all
Speaker 1: white people bear. And but in reality, she's learning throughout
Speaker 1: the book that things aren't always the way they look,
Speaker 1: and things aren't always the way she understood them going
Speaker 1: to school at you know, wherever she went to school
Speaker 1: in Chicago. And so that's that's one of the things
Speaker 1: that combat and war and in general change the way
Speaker 1: people view the world, and especially if you're not mentally
Speaker 1: prepared to go through those struggles. And and one of
Speaker 1: the things that a lot of veterans learn is that
Speaker 1: the bigger the wall they put up, the harder it
Speaker 1: is to take get down afterwards. Right. And you try
Speaker 1: to try to keep the war out of your psyche,
Speaker 1: and you try to prepare yourself for it, but it
Speaker 1: still gets in there. But if you are not prepared
Speaker 1: at all, and you just wander into the stress and
Speaker 1: wander into the environment. It changes you in ways is
Speaker 1: that maybe you can't even control. And it happens very quickly,
Speaker 1: like all life and death experiences do. And so she,
Speaker 1: more than anyone, is one of my favorite characters in
Speaker 1: the book. And I had people, you know, send me
Speaker 1: messages being like I hate her, like I hope she
Speaker 1: I hope she dies like and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the point. You're supposed to not like her when
Speaker 1: the book starts, and you're supposed to have those feelings.
Speaker 1: And every time someone texts me that they hated her,
Speaker 1: I was like, secretly very happy because it means I
Speaker 1: wrote the character well well.
Speaker 2: And to give you a compliment, I not only did
Speaker 2: not like this character, but I will admit read untill
Speaker 2: about I want to say, kind of seventy five percent mark.
Speaker 2: I was worried that she would be a very certain
Speaker 2: type of character in this book, right, the kind of
Speaker 2: like two dimensional stand in for like you know, the
Speaker 2: SJW woman that we all hate and look like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't like those people either. But when you're reading
Speaker 2: a book, when you're reading a novel, it's like, well,
Speaker 2: all right, man, yeah, I dislike those characters too. I
Speaker 2: dislike those people. So just putting one of them in
Speaker 2: and holding them up is this kind of like hate figure.
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, like, what are we doing. It's not
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen anymore. But there really is a sort of
Speaker 2: a very interesting growth with both Nala and her husband,
Speaker 2: the ambassador. And there's this moment and by the way, Philip,
Speaker 2: I told you I was not going to offer spoilers.
Speaker 2: This is going to make no sense unless you've read
Speaker 2: the book, and I'm not going to give you any details.
Speaker 2: So by the book. But there's a quiet conversation between
Speaker 2: doctor fray Are sort of the main character's wife, and Nala.
Speaker 2: It's a really interesting interaction. It's a might be my
Speaker 2: favorite scene in this book. I assume you know what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about, and I was wondering if you could,
Speaker 2: you know, explain what's going on there a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I I wrote that scene that I have
Speaker 1: a I have a sort of a pet peeve about
Speaker 1: battle scenes. And if you write every gunfight scene from
Speaker 1: the pov of the person who's in the gunfight scene,
Speaker 1: it loses context and it loses some of the im
Speaker 1: pact if you write the scene from the perspective of
Speaker 1: a loved one who knows it's happening and they can't
Speaker 1: do anything right. And the scene that you're referring to,
Speaker 1: and I actually read about this later about a there's
Speaker 1: a there's a test that you can apply to movies
Speaker 1: and TV shows of two women having a conversation about
Speaker 1: something that's not a man and this did fail that
Speaker 1: they talk about their husbands for a lengthy period of time.
Speaker 1: But in the scene major of Frey, who's the main character,
Speaker 1: is off doing a small quasi raid with some of
Speaker 1: his guys in the night in Congo. To try to
Speaker 1: write a sort of historic or sort of contemporary wrong
Speaker 1: that's happening to some people, the scene is is doctor Frey,
Speaker 1: Amanda Frey, who's who's major phrase wife, and Nall, who's
Speaker 1: the ambassador's wife, drinking a bottle of wine as as
Speaker 1: women are known to do. And they're sort of on
Speaker 1: this hill and they're overlooking where Amanda Pray's husband is
Speaker 1: on this very life and death sort of raid, and
Speaker 1: they can see the battle, they can hear it, they
Speaker 1: can see the flashes because this at night, they can
Speaker 1: see the fires, they can see all sorts of stuff,
Speaker 1: but they're talking about people, and they're talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: their different upbringings and having come from somewhat of a
Speaker 1: upper middle class, lower upper class background. When I joined
Speaker 1: the army, there were a lot of people who said,
Speaker 1: did you like, did something happen? Like did you get arrested?
Speaker 1: Did like? Is there is there a reason this is
Speaker 1: happening to you? And you're not going to Pepperdine or
Speaker 1: whatever school that they expect me to go to. And
Speaker 1: I said, no, this is something I want to do.
Speaker 1: And they're like, well, I don't know what happened to you.
Speaker 1: You must have gotten arrested and just And that is
Speaker 1: a conversation that almost plays out directly in this story
Speaker 1: where Naala Brown, who is the ambassador's wife, has these
Speaker 1: preconceived notions of you know, the phrase background and she
Speaker 1: knows Amanda phrase the doctor, and but she just assume that,
Speaker 1: you know, Alex the major comes from this, like, you know,
Speaker 1: I think I referred to as a directional state school
Speaker 1: like your Southwest Missouri College of Science and Art. But
Speaker 1: he had gone to an ivying school. And that's not
Speaker 1: as rare as it may sound. I knew quite a
Speaker 1: few guys who who had that sort of background when
Speaker 1: they joined the army. But it's a it's a sort
Speaker 1: of a a breaking moment for her knowing that the
Speaker 1: people that she is is watching risk their lives to
Speaker 1: do something that she's only ever dreamed of doing are
Speaker 1: people that aren't so different from her. And it sort
Speaker 1: of is a a moment where she realizes that if
Speaker 1: this thing that I thought so vehemently is wrong, what
Speaker 1: else is wrong in my life? It's it's her her
Speaker 1: moment of Gelman amnesia. I like, I realized this one
Speaker 1: thing is off? What else is off? In all of
Speaker 1: my other world views? And they were in the book.
Speaker 1: There have been a conversation that happened the night before
Speaker 1: and then this action, And one of my favorite parts
Speaker 1: of the scene is where she's thinking about, you know,
Speaker 1: all of these these young men, these young Americans who
Speaker 1: weren't from Africa, they had all volunteered to go on
Speaker 1: this rate, like none of them had had said they
Speaker 1: want to stay behind. And that's how that's how it works.
Speaker 1: Like you know, most of them are young Marines. They
Speaker 1: want to go do the thing that they had trained
Speaker 1: to do. They want to go out and be close
Speaker 1: to it with their with their brothers, and it's a
Speaker 1: it's a life changing moment for her to see these
Speaker 1: people who have no vested interest in this village in
Speaker 1: Africa volunteer to maybe maybe die to avenge it.
Speaker 2: There's there's another character much less important to the overall story,
Speaker 2: but I think it's kind of an interesting compare and contrast.
Speaker 2: Which is the character? I believe her name is Meredith?
Speaker 2: Is it Emmer's? Is that the name.
Speaker 1: Emmon?
Speaker 2: Excuse me? Who is this? I believe she's from Princeton
Speaker 2: who comes to work in this village I believe with
Speaker 2: doctors without borders and very makes it an understandable but
Speaker 2: sort of interesting decision. And so, you know, if if
Speaker 2: you could, could you describe who she is, why she's
Speaker 2: important to the story, and also, you know, this kind
Speaker 2: of central theme of trying to fix Africa right, trying
Speaker 2: to like make it like you know, Beverly Hills, because
Speaker 2: that's something that comes up over and over through this.
Speaker 2: And you know there's another albeit a different, you know,
Speaker 2: part of this plot that has to do with you know,
Speaker 2: the Chinese sort of trying to come in and you know,
Speaker 2: shore extract resources. But it seems as if through this book,
Speaker 2: no matter who is trying, and whether it's the Russians,
Speaker 2: the Chinese, the Americans, Africa remained sort of unchanged. And
Speaker 2: so I realized, I threw a bunch of you there, Philip,
Speaker 2: and I'm curious to get your thoughts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and and first of all, the book is
Speaker 1: is definitely not anti colonialism. It's not pro colonialism, but
Speaker 1: it has a more realistic view of of what colonialism
Speaker 1: was in Africa especially. But one of the things about Africa,
Speaker 1: and it's a it's a very Western belief that with
Speaker 1: enough hard work, we can make something better. And when
Speaker 1: we when we look at that, and we look at
Speaker 1: that sort of juxtaposition in our in our Western minds,
Speaker 1: we look at the land and we say, you know,
Speaker 1: with enough hard work, we can till this land. And
Speaker 1: we can. We can make western Oklahoma, you know, able
Speaker 1: to farm. And I don't care how many dust bols come,
Speaker 1: we can we can make this work. But the thing
Speaker 1: about Africa is it's filled with people. And while the
Speaker 1: land is hostile in a lot of ways, also very
Speaker 1: beautiful in some ways, but it's hostile, So can the
Speaker 1: people be both? And there are definitely people in the
Speaker 1: story who are trying to make their world better for
Speaker 1: them and then those around them, and there are those
Speaker 1: who are trying not to. They're trying to do the
Speaker 1: exact opposite. They're trying to be the new colonizers, but
Speaker 1: in a more ruthless way. And the character of Meredith
Speaker 1: Emmons is an interesting one because there's a scene in
Speaker 1: that sort of side quest where they have this this
Speaker 1: dinner and I wrote that entire scene and as an
Speaker 1: homage to the French plantation scene in Apocalypse Now. It's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite scenes of any movie of all time.
Speaker 1: And I don't even know if it's in the theatrical release.
Speaker 1: I think it's only in the like nine hour long
Speaker 1: director's cut, but it's it's one of my favorite scenes
Speaker 1: of any movie all time, and so that that whole
Speaker 1: segment of the book is written to make that scene work.
Speaker 1: But Meredith Emmons is this this American aid worker who's
Speaker 1: sent to Africa to help establish this Doctors Without Borders clinic,
Speaker 1: and she faces some of the same choices that other
Speaker 1: people in the book face of like what are you
Speaker 1: willing to do to make your mission a success? And
Speaker 1: she gets sort of this target fixation where the mission
Speaker 1: is the most important, and she gets this this Bismarckian
Speaker 1: and I it's not, but the end is justified the
Speaker 1: means sort of mentality of it, of what I'm doing
Speaker 1: isn't that bad because it's for a greater good or
Speaker 1: it's for you know, it's not that bad on its
Speaker 1: face because it's gonna happen anyway with or without me.
Speaker 1: And she's a she's an example of it, of a
Speaker 1: character who has this moral dilemma. And she's the same
Speaker 1: as a lot of other characters because there are there
Speaker 1: aren't really any objectively bad characters in the book. I
Speaker 1: mean when I say bad, I mean just evil for
Speaker 1: evil's sake, right, there are there are definitely quote unquote
Speaker 1: the bad guys I mean everything.
Speaker 2: Sorry not to not to correct you, but I would
Speaker 2: be curious to get your thoughts on. There is a
Speaker 2: well educated African and his uncle who're kind of local
Speaker 2: warlords who, and again not trying to correct you in
Speaker 2: your own book, might be the closest to a true
Speaker 2: through and through villain in anything or any character in
Speaker 2: this book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and and that's true. And you you
Speaker 1: but you see those people, and you look at you
Speaker 1: look at Africa, and you look at the Africa that's
Speaker 1: portrayed in the book, and you kind of get this
Speaker 1: this food chain mentality of if I'm not at the top,
Speaker 1: I'm at the bottom and life at the bottom is
Speaker 1: so intolerably hard that I will do anything I can
Speaker 1: to be at the top. And so you have to
Speaker 1: ask yourself, if you took those characters out of Africa,
Speaker 1: would they act and be the same way? And I
Speaker 1: don't know that they would, you know, And it's the
Speaker 1: setting itself of being in Africa creates a set of
Speaker 1: behavior and it sort of tears away societal norms as
Speaker 1: we in the West know them. But yeah, that character
Speaker 1: is definitely could definitely be viewed as it's a pure
Speaker 1: bad guy. But and that's that's that's the question, right
Speaker 1: Like if you were in Africa, what how would you act?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: What would you do? Knowing that if you don't, you
Speaker 1: know you could It's like this, uh, this red button
Speaker 1: blue button question that's going on the internet right now.
Speaker 1: You know, are you going to look out for your
Speaker 1: own self interest or are you gonna hope everyone's looking
Speaker 1: out for your self interest? And push the other button.
Speaker 1: You know, people in Africa are given a choice of
Speaker 1: maybe try to collaborate in a land where collaboration has
Speaker 1: almost always failed, or try to try to carve out
Speaker 1: something nice for yourself and and hold on to it
Speaker 1: in a way. You know, a lot of the Mongol
Speaker 1: Moon stories are this post apocalyptic people coming to grips
Speaker 1: with the things they have to do. But in Africa,
Speaker 1: that's already there, like, that's always been there. It's always
Speaker 1: been part of the culture, especially in the Congo and
Speaker 1: places like that. It's it's it's baked in to the culture. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you there on that point,
Speaker 2: but it was just a look, man, when you get
Speaker 2: excited about a book, you start talking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's it's good. It's a good point because
Speaker 1: I'm I'm one of the goals I had was to
Speaker 1: and I hate when they, you know, authors or books
Speaker 1: or shows or movies or whatever, try to make the
Speaker 1: villain sympathetic, Like none of the villains in this book,
Speaker 1: and then there's a couple of them are sympathetic. Like
Speaker 1: I don't want you to like or feel bad for
Speaker 1: any of them, definite only to take their sides, but
Speaker 1: villains have their own motivation, and to know their motivation
Speaker 1: is important, and most villains think their motivation is right,
Speaker 1: Like they they're not just villains for the sake of it.
Speaker 1: They think they have a legitimate grievance and they're gonna
Speaker 1: do it. And a lot of the Russians in the
Speaker 1: book act out of the same patriotism that the Americans
Speaker 1: act out of. Some of them definitely do not, but
Speaker 1: a lot of them do. And that doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: have to side with the Russians just because they're patriotic,
Speaker 1: Like you would make the case as an American that
Speaker 1: our patriotism is more important than theirs. But yeah, and
Speaker 1: having that frame of reference that everyone thinks they're the
Speaker 1: good guy in their own story, but from our lens,
Speaker 1: most of them are definitely not. It is an important
Speaker 1: way to look at the book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that that's an important distinction. Like
Speaker 2: the the thing that is unsatisfying in a villain is
Speaker 2: this sort of like you know, mustache twirling of like oh,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just such a bad guy. I want
Speaker 2: to do bad things and like, okay, you know that
Speaker 2: works for like a certain type of pulp story, right,
Speaker 2: Like some some real black and white morality, Like I'm
Speaker 2: down for that. But if you know, we're reading a
Speaker 2: novel here, we're really like getting into it. It's like, well,
Speaker 2: I don't need to like him, but I need to
Speaker 2: get it right. And the motivations or the kind of
Speaker 2: lead Russian bad guy it makes sense. You're like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I can understand why a guy would do that. You know,
Speaker 2: it's not just the kind of like, ohaha, I will
Speaker 2: take over the world. And I think that that's a
Speaker 2: really important distinction because like the the relatable villain and
Speaker 2: the whole anti hero thing. It's like, there were there
Speaker 2: are some good examples of that, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: early on in that trend, but it sort of became
Speaker 2: it kind of became a crutch in a way, you know,
Speaker 2: it became a kind of a cheat. And I appreciate
Speaker 2: that you didn't. You didn't go down that rabbit hole.
Speaker 2: I want to go back before we move on, because
Speaker 2: you mentioned something probably ten minutes ago that I want
Speaker 2: to return to about the firefights, the actual action in
Speaker 2: this because I hadn't actually put it into words until
Speaker 2: you said it that there are there is punctual action
Speaker 2: in this right, It's an exciting book. There are things happening,
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't say the majority of the time, but
Speaker 2: a lot of the time you're not getting the perspective
Speaker 2: of necessarily our heroes. Several points said it it is
Speaker 2: deliberately not told or shown to you, which is interesting.
Speaker 2: You mentioned the kind of rate on this mining compound.
Speaker 2: There's another one which I said, I wouldn't do spoilers,
Speaker 2: so I won't bring it up, but kind of close
Speaker 2: to the climactic end of this book, where you know,
Speaker 2: you know what happened, but you don't get the kind
Speaker 2: of blow by blow. But also there are other instances
Speaker 2: where we get the at the perspective of the opposition, right,
Speaker 2: we get the perspective of the Chinese, the perspective of
Speaker 2: the Russians, And so I'm curious, was that a deliberate
Speaker 2: choice to sort of give you the perspective of you know,
Speaker 2: the guys getting wrecked.
Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, absolutely, and they're the quote, I'm gonna get
Speaker 1: it wrong, but someone out of that turn of a
Speaker 1: of a major battle, you know what was what was
Speaker 1: waterloo like? And he said, I don't know, I only
Speaker 1: know the things that happened right in front of me,
Speaker 1: and of those things, I'm only only certain a few
Speaker 1: of the things I think happened actually happened. But but
Speaker 1: battles are like that, they're they're very chaotic. You can
Speaker 1: only be sure you experienced the things that you directly saw,
Speaker 1: and so to cover them from different perspectives where people
Speaker 1: might not know what's happening. I thought, was it something
Speaker 1: I really wanted to do? Like it's something that I
Speaker 1: don't see a lot in books or movies, but it's
Speaker 1: it At least. I think it's a unique way to
Speaker 1: tell about a story because so many people are used
Speaker 1: to watching, you know, this hero run through all the
Speaker 1: different stuff, and you know the hero is not gonna die,
Speaker 1: but like you know that, you know other people will,
Speaker 1: and and reading it from this perspective and running from
Speaker 1: that perspective, you're not exactly sure what's gonna happen because
Speaker 1: you're not exactly be sure who you're who you're talking
Speaker 1: about all the time, because a lot of the characters
Speaker 1: in the battle scenes are new for those battle scenes,
Speaker 1: and a lot of them are just just chaotic. You know,
Speaker 1: a couple paragraph panic mode, you know, incidents, and that's
Speaker 1: reflective of how a lot of small unit engagements are right. Obviously,
Speaker 1: if you're you're standing in the Battle of Gettysburg, it's
Speaker 1: not it is chaotic, but you see hundreds of thousands
Speaker 1: of people around you, and you have a sort of
Speaker 1: a perspective of of where you are in the thing,
Speaker 1: and you know the enemy is coming and and all
Speaker 1: this stuff. But you know, out in the bush sort
Speaker 1: of in small units, people just sometimes run into each
Speaker 1: other and they just shoot it out, and they they
Speaker 1: all try to break contact because it's it's a natural
Speaker 1: human instinct to try to you know, break contact away
Speaker 1: from from gunfire. But that was that was a very
Speaker 1: deliberate choice to write those battle scenes in a way
Speaker 1: that one wasn't repetitive, but then two tried to find
Speaker 1: a way to to do it a little bit differently.
Speaker 2: One of the other things I enjoyed about this book
Speaker 2: is this is perhaps most notable in film, but you
Speaker 2: see it in books as well. I really enjoy whatever
Speaker 2: the subgenre which is media where guns are scary, because
Speaker 2: you know, the classic example is like the John Wu
Speaker 2: you know, millions of squibs everywhere, you know, nobody gets
Speaker 2: hit until the closing moments. And the way that you
Speaker 2: portray violence in this is incredibly visceral. Not that it's
Speaker 2: you know, kind of gratuitously going over the you know,
Speaker 2: the blood and gore per se, but in the sense
Speaker 2: that it feels as if every character is at very
Speaker 2: real risk when they are getting shot at. And I
Speaker 2: think that that's really a credit to your work. And
Speaker 2: I'm curious right now. I realize that I think I've
Speaker 2: said that as an introduction to a question like six times,
Speaker 2: but it won't stop me. Uh, I'd like to get
Speaker 2: your thoughts on on that, Like, how do you write
Speaker 2: action in a way that gives real stakes? You know,
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like it's just sort of a you know,
Speaker 2: an episode of the eighteen.
Speaker 1: So I'm so I'm meaning assumption. I think it's pretty good.
Speaker 1: You've seen the Saving Private Ryan. Yes, okay, so the
Speaker 1: Omaha Beach scene of Saving Private Ryan is really two
Speaker 1: different scenes. One is the beginning where it follows Captain
Speaker 1: Miller Tom Anks's character a little bit, but once the
Speaker 1: front ramp goes down, it goes into a wider angle
Speaker 1: and just starts following random American soldiers around Omaha Beach.
Speaker 1: And so for that that few minutes, you're taking away
Speaker 1: from the POV character of Captain Miller, who you know
Speaker 1: is gonna live, right, because you know he's gonna be
Speaker 1: in the movie longer. And you just watch Americans get
Speaker 1: killed on Omaha Beach, and you watch it for long enough,
Speaker 1: and you watch it happen, you know, and in gruesome ways,
Speaker 1: like a flamethrower exploding or a guy carrying his arm
Speaker 1: or or all the all the honest, you know, gruesome
Speaker 1: parts of modern war. And by the time the scene
Speaker 1: focuses back on Captain Miller, he has lost that in
Speaker 1: a in a way that that hero's armor, and you're like,
Speaker 1: maybe he will die. Like, I've just seen so many
Speaker 1: people die in this movie. I no longer believe that
Speaker 1: anyone is safe. Right, You're you're just inundated in the violence,
Speaker 1: and now you're looking at it from a different lens,
Speaker 1: and and most of the time you don't connect who's
Speaker 1: firing and who's dying. Right, Sure, you see the scene
Speaker 1: from from behind the Germans with the machine gun, but
Speaker 1: the bullets are just coming and things are just exploding,
Speaker 1: and things just happen, and you're just trying to stay alive.
Speaker 1: And you're watching this scene and it pulls you into
Speaker 1: the scene one because it is from a p like
Speaker 1: a random POV perspective and sort of a steady came
Speaker 1: of guy walking up the beach, and so trying to
Speaker 1: write the action scenes in that way I think helps
Speaker 1: to the perception of anyone is vulnerable, right because in
Speaker 1: the book, you know, obviously the main character isn't dead
Speaker 1: as you go to the book, but you get the
Speaker 1: idea that he could die, and he even talks about it.
Speaker 1: You know, he talks about all the danger he's facing,
Speaker 1: his different deployments, and he talks about, you know, there's armor,
Speaker 1: but he doesn't have any body armor. And there's one
Speaker 1: scene where he's on the ground talking to some Africans
Speaker 1: and he realizes he's only got three magazines and in
Speaker 1: Iraq he's used to carrying like seven or eight with
Speaker 1: the bag of him in his truck, and he realized
Speaker 1: for the first time just how naked and alone he
Speaker 1: is out here without one the logistics that he's used
Speaker 1: to fighting a war with, but two without any support. Right,
Speaker 1: You're you're just a group of Americans out here in
Speaker 1: the middle of Africa where everything can kill you. And
Speaker 1: I think that was like a very very deliberate choice
Speaker 1: as well. And I've had people talk about, you know
Speaker 1: how they're they don't like reading books where like the
Speaker 1: hero solves everything or you know, he's he's the hero,
Speaker 1: he's not the main character. And I deliberately wrote it
Speaker 1: like that, and I deliberately have this this internal struggle
Speaker 1: with a lot of the main characters, and that's how
Speaker 1: people would react. Like people, no matter how many times
Speaker 1: you've been to war, you feel fear when you get
Speaker 1: shot at. No matter how many times, like you've told
Speaker 1: yourself to embrace the knowledge that you could die, you
Speaker 1: still feel a little bit of fear response. And I
Speaker 1: wanted the audience that to understand one a little bit
Speaker 1: of the chaos, but then also a little bit of
Speaker 1: that that fear maybe the main character can die.
Speaker 2: And I think that it it adds to the kind
Speaker 2: of natural chaos of your setting, where this is a
Speaker 2: world where the one look Africa is a chaotic place period.
Speaker 2: You know, this is not a place where there is
Speaker 2: a significant rule of law. And also our characters, even
Speaker 2: given that are cut off right, they don't have their tradition,
Speaker 2: the line of support they're used to. They don't have
Speaker 2: the direction that they're used to, and you know, by
Speaker 2: writing the book in that way, you add this sort
Speaker 2: of just baseline level of risk to it, where even
Speaker 2: an escape right even when you you know, you have
Speaker 2: the characters sort of get past the Russians or get
Speaker 2: past this obstacle. After the kind of chaos subsides, well,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden we realize that they're you know,
Speaker 2: there are men wounded and killed. And one of the
Speaker 2: sort of interesting things about this book is that the
Speaker 2: start of almost every chapter has and like, I'm never
Speaker 2: been in the military, this is probably some form that
Speaker 2: I am not aware of, but basically a spreadsheet which
Speaker 2: has you know, every organization there represented, and then the
Speaker 2: status of both you know, the machines that because you know,
Speaker 2: a large portion of this is keeping you know, these
Speaker 2: these trucks running right, keeping them enough, giving them enough fuel,
Speaker 2: provides a lot of pressure throughout this, but also this
Speaker 2: kind of actuarial table of how everyone's doing. And I
Speaker 2: think it's a really interesting contrast between this sense of
Speaker 2: relief like our characters have gotten through this and then
Speaker 2: this you know, kind of stinking realization like oh no,
Speaker 2: the fuel tanker has holes in it, or oh no,
Speaker 2: you know that RPG went off in the back of
Speaker 2: one of these fans, and then to have all of
Speaker 2: that kind of summarized in this like very dry kind
Speaker 2: of table. It's a it's an interesting story of life,
Speaker 2: I'll put it that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's it's Ironically, the the publisher Wargate, who
Speaker 1: was fantastic and taking a risk on me, wanted to
Speaker 1: cut that out because it didn't format the right way.
Speaker 1: I was like, no, it's it's you got to keep
Speaker 1: it in, and you got to keep it in because
Speaker 1: it one, it reflects one of the characters development arcs, right,
Speaker 1: so that the sergeant major in the book starts off
Speaker 1: as a very by the book, very organized, very we
Speaker 1: do the process kind of guy, and to his credit,
Speaker 1: he doesn't change through the whole book. He keeps that
Speaker 1: sort of mentality, but by the end he softened and
Speaker 1: can make jokes about it. Right, He's still gonna to
Speaker 1: do things the same way, but he understands that it's
Speaker 1: become sort of like a comedic thing to a lot
Speaker 1: of the guys in the unit. But but those person
Speaker 1: they're called perse stats, a personal status report. Those are
Speaker 1: the livered daily in the army and even on tiny
Speaker 1: outposts in Afghanistan, you're every morning and every night you're
Speaker 1: sending a purse that back either by the radio or
Speaker 1: by a computer system saying hey, we started the day
Speaker 1: with twenty guys. We've still got twenty guys present for duty.
Speaker 1: We've got all of our sense of items, we've got everything.
Speaker 1: We're good to go, and you know, report on your
Speaker 1: different categories supply. But that is like a core function
Speaker 1: of the army. It's a core principle of like reporting
Speaker 1: your people and reporting stuff, and it's a marking someone.
Speaker 1: There's a there's a part in the book where some
Speaker 1: of the guys are sent off on a side mission
Speaker 1: right by themselves, and they're marked on this This perse
Speaker 1: status is what's called DUST one, which is duty status
Speaker 1: whereabouts unknown. And in the army, that's like a very
Speaker 1: very serious category to mark someone in. It means essentially
Speaker 1: someone's missing, like I don't know where they are. I
Speaker 1: kind of like I know where I last saw them,
Speaker 1: but I don't know their status. They might be dead,
Speaker 1: they might be captured. I just don't know. But the
Speaker 1: the discipline it takes to on a on a form
Speaker 1: or on a spreadsheet mark a friend of yours is
Speaker 1: dead is a like a seriously emotional trauma to go
Speaker 1: through because it makes it official, right, like you know,
Speaker 1: you may have seen that person die, but until you're
Speaker 1: you're forced to write on an official form like yeah,
Speaker 1: this person is Kia, this person is dead. It it
Speaker 1: doesn't have the sense of permanence that it used to happen.
Speaker 1: So this is a it's a it's a plot device
Speaker 1: I really liked, mostly because it's it's such a part
Speaker 1: of military life that even in World War three, even
Speaker 1: in the middle of a Africa, some of the people
Speaker 1: just can't get away from it. They can't get away from,
Speaker 1: you know, doing what got them to this point.
Speaker 2: So I've pretty deliberately been light on a lot of
Speaker 2: details and really on are kind of two main characters,
Speaker 2: these two, these two brothers who are at very different
Speaker 2: I guess you would say, have very different attitudes towards
Speaker 2: the world. So one, if you could, could you briefly
Speaker 2: because again we're trying to stick to an hour and
Speaker 2: I don't want to reveal too much again buy the book,
Speaker 2: But what are you trying to do with Alex Free
Speaker 2: our main character and then his brother, right, who's much
Speaker 2: more mysterious and has a very kind of different role
Speaker 2: in this story, but is still kind of pushing people,
Speaker 2: you know, towards the kind of finish.
Speaker 1: Line, so that the plot reveal in the book now
Speaker 1: happens very early. In this short story it happened very late,
Speaker 1: so it was like a plot twist in the end
Speaker 1: of the short story. But in the book it happens
Speaker 1: very early. So I'm not that worried about people people
Speaker 1: figuring out. It's a central tenet of the book as
Speaker 1: it is. But you can make the case that and
Speaker 1: this is definitely not true. There's no you know, Hunter S.
Speaker 1: Thompson character who doesn't actually exist but does exist in
Speaker 1: this book. That's not always true in those are the
Speaker 1: short stories that followed the Mango Moon universe that I wrote.
Speaker 1: But you can make the case that that John and
Speaker 1: Alex are actually the same person and an event in
Speaker 1: their life drove them down different paths. They're both you know,
Speaker 1: tall and athletic, they're both sort of these all American
Speaker 1: kids who went to great schools and come from a
Speaker 1: great family, and one of them ends up being this
Speaker 1: family centric war and the other one ends up being
Speaker 1: this sort of international not international man of mystery, but
Speaker 1: this sort of international man with nothing tying him to
Speaker 1: a life beyond what he does day to day. And
Speaker 1: I think it's a it's a path that a lot
Speaker 1: of young men face the decision to make, like do
Speaker 1: I want to you know, go off shore and work
Speaker 1: on a rig for five years, or do I want
Speaker 1: to get married? Or do I want to join the
Speaker 1: army or you know whatever. But the two characters spent
Speaker 1: a lot of the book at odds with each other,
Speaker 1: and if there's ever a sequel to Blood Memory, it
Speaker 1: probably would reveal what happened. But they're these like this
Speaker 1: dichotomy of one another, but they're both sort of have
Speaker 1: the same interest in their heart, but they go about
Speaker 1: it in two very different ways. You Know, John is
Speaker 1: very selfish and things he's right all the time and
Speaker 1: used to like not having to report where he's going
Speaker 1: or or talking about what he does to people. And
Speaker 1: Alex is used to being in control. He's an army officer.
Speaker 1: He's used to saying something and it happening. And he's
Speaker 1: a he's a father and a husband, so he's used
Speaker 1: to being around and putting their needs first. And that's
Speaker 1: also a core Tenet of this sort of an aboss's
Speaker 1: tale of what happened in Binger family to war and
Speaker 1: he's so he's forced to face this, whereas John is
Speaker 1: is sure he cares about Alex and Alex's family, but
Speaker 1: he has his own priorities and he's going to try
Speaker 1: to get that stuff done in the way he wants
Speaker 1: to do it. And it's it's a it's a little
Speaker 1: bit of internal strife and it doesn't go, you know,
Speaker 1: too far over the top, because I don't I don't
Speaker 1: want to write a book where like there's betrayal by
Speaker 1: the people closest to you, right, because that's sure that
Speaker 1: does happen. But like, the book is really about the
Speaker 1: American way of life and the way Americans approach problems
Speaker 1: and work together juxtaposed against the way the Russians or
Speaker 1: the Africans or the Chinese do it. And a lot
Speaker 1: of the decisions that the Americans face are also faced
Speaker 1: by the Russians and the Chinese and sometimes the Africans,
Speaker 1: and you can kind of see how they approach them differently.
Speaker 1: But within the American sort of sections of the book,
Speaker 1: you can see how different Americans approach the problem differently.
Speaker 1: And using Alex and John in that role lets you
Speaker 1: sort of pick which American you would solve problems like
Speaker 1: and I want to include a CIA guy because there's
Speaker 1: CIA guys all over Africa. And John is is definitely
Speaker 1: not a superhuman superspy, right. There are some things he's
Speaker 1: good at and some things he's really not good at.
Speaker 1: And he sort of fails a couple of times doing
Speaker 1: a few things things, but he's also very successful doing
Speaker 1: a few things. And that's that's sort of the type
Speaker 1: of character I wanted to to write The Fallible One. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Man, this is really a very interesting book. I highly
Speaker 2: recommend it. And before we close out, I'm just curious
Speaker 2: what comes next for you. Are you working on anything else?
Speaker 1: Where?
Speaker 2: Can people look for updates? And what do you think
Speaker 2: of next is going to be in this universe? Something
Speaker 2: else you still interested in writing?
Speaker 1: So yeah, the I've written some some op eds and
Speaker 1: some pieces for some some online and then some in
Speaker 1: real life book sort of periodicals. I would I would
Speaker 1: say I'm still doing that a little bit. The audiobook
Speaker 1: for Blood Memory is coming out May fifth. The pre
Speaker 1: order is up on Amazon and Audible right now. I
Speaker 1: did not read it. We had a professional person to
Speaker 1: read it, and I actually listen into the whole thing
Speaker 1: before it got released and made a couple of notes,
Speaker 1: so it I know, a lot of times you read
Speaker 1: like military audible book audiobooks and the way they pronounce
Speaker 1: things that are really rile up veterans, but this is
Speaker 1: veteran improved, I guess. So you're not gonna hear them
Speaker 1: say an M one six They're gonna call it an
Speaker 1: M sixteen. You know they're gonna they're gonna do it
Speaker 1: the right way. But yeah, that's that's available for pre
Speaker 1: order right now and then it will drop May fifth.
Speaker 1: The book is available still on paperback and hardcover. I'm
Speaker 1: getting a lot of pressure to write a sequel. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that that's gonna happen. Happen it might to me,
Speaker 1: the book is a you know, I say this tongue
Speaker 1: in cheek, but it's got a pretty clear cut ending
Speaker 1: and there's no loose ends to tie up, and it
Speaker 1: ends in the way that you know, it is a
Speaker 1: believable ending. But people, you know, I don't want to
Speaker 1: say that. The more people bug me to write a sequel,
Speaker 1: the more I will. But you know, it's all about demand. Right,
Speaker 1: if people like it, you know, I got on Twitter
Speaker 1: to to tell stories about you know, the military history
Speaker 1: and things like that, and if if I think it
Speaker 1: adds value to people and the way that people view
Speaker 1: the world, and you know, especially young man at that
Speaker 1: sort of frux of of their lives looking for not
Speaker 1: necessarily you know, a hero, but sort of an inspiration
Speaker 1: of how to solve problems. I think they can find
Speaker 1: that in my book. And I think if if that's
Speaker 1: something that people do derive some value from, I could
Speaker 1: be persuaded to write a sequel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, I'm glad to hear that. I'm eagerly awaiting
Speaker 2: whatever you come out with next. Like I said, I
Speaker 2: read a lot of books. I've read a lot of
Speaker 2: things that guys on the internet tell me too and
Speaker 2: produce relatively few book reviews. So I said, I really
Speaker 2: enjoyed this. Recommend that to anyone home. Check the link
Speaker 2: in the description to find that. As far as my stuff,
Speaker 2: Jay Burden Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2: If you want to support me because this is what
Speaker 2: I do, you can head over to Patreon, Substack, or
Speaker 2: gum road and get all the episodes early with no
Speaker 2: advertisements for like five bucks a month. It's a pretty
Speaker 2: good deal. Also, you can check out our sponsors, Axios
Speaker 2: Remote Fitness Coaching. I've got a little bit of a
Speaker 2: head cold, haven't been in the gym, but normally five
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Speaker 2: And then also Fox and Son's Coffee. You use code
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Speaker 2: It's good stuff. I recommend it again. Philip Man, this
Speaker 2: was a ton of fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was great. Well, if a sequel ever comes out,
Speaker 1: we'll do it again.
Speaker 2: Sure thing, and everyone home, keep your head up. I
Speaker 2: can't last forever. Good Night.
Speaker 1: What what what? What's what? Gary