WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:05.919 Meaning a man like this man letting butterfly flapping his 2 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:08.160 wan big band in the forest. Man, it gonna cause 3 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.119 the tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Many nobody seen, 4 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:20.120 nobody else see. You don't need no man blad. You 5 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:23.120 followed another story and you got back in fact that 6 00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:26.719 that's man got blackly name on the Panama Man. 7 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:28.239 Man, you don't don't better? Man? 8 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:28.960 I know. 9 00:00:35.560 --> 00:00:37.719 All right, Philip Foodoo, welcome to the jay burd and 10 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:38.320 show how you doing? 11 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:39.679 Man? I'm doing well? 12 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:39.880 Man? 13 00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:40.320 How are you? 14 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:46.079 I'm I'm doing great. I uh here for another book review. 15 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:49.479 I read Blood Memory, which is one of your books. 16 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:54.759 And uh, I will say I get recommended a lot 17 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:58.159 of books on Twitter dot com and most of them 18 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:01.200 are really bad. And I realized starting off a book 19 00:01:01.240 --> 00:01:04.280 review by saying this is not bad sounds like I 20 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:07.200 am damning it by faint praise. But that is a 21 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:11.799 notable occurrence in my inbox. So yeah, man, I really 22 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:14.959 enjoyed this book. We'll get into it later. But before 23 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:17.439 we do that, you know, as much as you're comfortable, Well, 24 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:19.920 who are you? And how do you get started writing? 25 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:25.519 Yeah? So it all started when I came to Twitter 26 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:30.519 in the sort of mid to late twenty one. I 27 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:35.000 started writing these like semi long form threads, back before 28 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:38.879 you could do that in one tweet. I would string 29 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:41.560 like twenty six twenty seven tweets together, and these really 30 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:45.920 oppressively long threads about history and military history and topics 31 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:50.359 like that. And people seem to like him. And I 32 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:53.719 made contact with a guy named Mark Sibley who had written. 33 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:58.000 At the time, he had written one book in the 34 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:01.560 Mongol Moon series. He's since written second, and the third 35 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:04.760 is promised to come out sometime in probably twenty sixty. 36 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:08.879 But he asked me to write a short story. He 37 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:13.639 knew I had a background helping some military friends with 38 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:19.639 their various fiction and nonfiction endeavors. One of the hazards 39 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:22.759 of being illiterate infantryman is they all ask you to 40 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:26.759 help write things for them. But that was a great experience, 41 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:28.759 and it's a great time helping my friends, and so 42 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:31.080 I started to do it again. I wrote I wrote 43 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.120 a short story for Mark for his publisher. They were 44 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:36.800 going to do a sort of a close action of 45 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:40.840 short stories, and the task was write one short story 46 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:45.120 about ten thousand words. I wrote three, and one of 47 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:47.199 them happened to be like forty thousand words and the 48 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:49.520 editor said, you know, can you cut this down to ten? 49 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:52.319 And I said, don't you'd delete a single word out 50 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:57.159 of this. We're going to have words. And he said, 51 00:02:57.159 --> 00:02:58.879 all right, the other option has turned into a book, 52 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:02.080 so can you add eighty thousand words to it and 53 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:05.680 we'll call it a novel because it's sort of built 54 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:07.680 for that, that has the bones and the structure to 55 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:10.639 be expanded on a little bit. I took it up 56 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:13.360 and said, yeah, I'll turn this into a novel, and 57 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:15.000 I that's where we are. 58 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:23.520 Yeah, it's the structure of it is really it's honestly, 59 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:27.560 it's really sort of rapturing because basically, and as per 60 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:29.280 usual of my book reviews, we're not going to get 61 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:31.639 into spoilers, not going to do it but blow by blow. 62 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:36.560 But it's basically a giant chase the entire time, and 63 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:40.199 it's incredibly compelling reading right, You just kind of get 64 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:45.080 sucked along by the narrative there. And there are two 65 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:47.840 things that I'm curious to get you know, your thoughts 66 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:51.879 on which is one like where did this idea come from? 67 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:53.520 Is it something that had been bouncing in your head 68 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:55.960 for years? Is it something you just sort of had 69 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:57.840 a little bit and you developed it as you wrote. 70 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:00.800 And then two. The other thing that's unique about this 71 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:04.800 book is is the setting right sub Saharan Africa, And 72 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.199 so I'm curious to get your thoughts on, well, where 73 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:10.800 did the setting come from? And well where did this 74 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:13.879 whole you know, chase, where did that idea come from? 75 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:18.279 Yeah? And it I think one of the things about 76 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:21.759 writing and I read Obviously, I think that's not going 77 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:25.439 to surprise anybody, but reading about places that I know 78 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:31.160 or or places that aren't foreign to me just fail 79 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:33.959 to capture my imagination in a way that I would 80 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:39.040 want to capture someone's imagination with something I write. There's 81 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:40.800 always going to be this you know, oh, I'm from 82 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:43.759 I'm from Kentucky, and if there's a book set in Kentucky, 83 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:47.120 I'm gonna nitpick the setting or whatever. Or if I'm 84 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:50.199 from you know, La and I read a book about Kentucky, 85 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:52.240 I have an idea in my mind of what life 86 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:55.560 in Kentucky's like, and so reading this book is always 87 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:59.560 going to have this preconceived notion of what it's like. 88 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.720 I think writing about Africa is as close as you 89 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.800 can get to writing about a sci fi world with 90 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:09.680 it being real, and it's it's like that for a 91 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:13.920 number of reasons. But it's just just a such a 92 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:17.240 different setting than what you're used to, and it's just 93 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:19.879 such a different place. And one of the things that 94 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:21.600 I did is I went through the writing of the 95 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:25.680 book was make sure that that Africa remained the character 96 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:28.199 you know, when you read books like that or when 97 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.439 you watch movies like that, you know, and in places 98 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:32.519 that most people don't spend a lot of time, like 99 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:35.560 a lot of you know, a great book about the 100 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:40.279 old features the sea as a character. You know, it's 101 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:42.000 not the old Man and the fish, it's the old 102 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.439 man in the sea. Right, It's this vast expanse of 103 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:49.759 nature that you're forced to contend with in addition to 104 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:53.120 contending with all the challenges man throws at you. And 105 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:58.160 so I wanted to write something that people had to 106 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:02.759 use their imagination, and also it made them a little 107 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.879 in some ways uncomfortable reading about it because they can't 108 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:11.079 rely on what they would do or how they would 109 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:13.079 go to ground or you know, in the event I 110 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:15.000 would find a I would find a you know, a 111 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:17.439 gun store, and I would find ammo for myself. But 112 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:20.720 there's no gun stores in Zambia, you know, there's there's 113 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:23.439 no cabellas that you can go to and raid, right, 114 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:26.879 And that's that's one of the things. And also the 115 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:30.519 thing that I liked about it is, you know, it's 116 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:32.600 certainly not going to be a spoiler, but in the 117 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:37.519 Mongol Moon universe, a series of EMPs, he's a nuclear 118 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:42.319 attacks knocks out almost all the electronics in Europe and 119 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:46.319 North America, and so all of the Mongol Moon Universe 120 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:51.879 stories deal with that in their own way, but nothing 121 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:55.879 happens to Africa, Like Africa just goes to sleep and 122 00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:00.319 wakes up and the outside world is just gone, you know, 123 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:03.600 you lost the ability to contact Europe or North America. 124 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:06.480 And so it's not so much a book about what 125 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:10.319 happens when the power goes out. It's a book about 126 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:13.360 what happens when the rest of the world goes away 127 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:17.839 and how parts of the world are forced to continue 128 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:18.519 on after that. 129 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:25.959 And I'm glad that you said that about Africa being 130 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:30.000 a character, because it's one of my favorite through lines. 131 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:33.399 It's part of the reason why I love Louisiana. It's 132 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.319 not because it's actually a nice place. But you know, 133 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:40.040 you read Percy, you read all the Kings meant, and 134 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:43.439 the setting becomes a character. You're sort of transported to 135 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:50.120 that place. And I, perhaps thankfully have never been to Africa, 136 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:54.240 but even just the level of having been to the 137 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:59.040 third world, which is a I realize an overly broad term, 138 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:00.639 but you know, work with me for a little bit. 139 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.600 You realize, like it you're almost on another planet. That 140 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:08.560 the way that you know, we as kind of quote 141 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:13.600 unquote educated Westerners think that normal people act, that's highly 142 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:18.959 culturally contextual, right, and you know, if if you step 143 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:22.199 into a place that's very very poor, very dysfunctional, that 144 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:27.160 has a culture that isn't working, you realize that it 145 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:30.920 works off a completely separate set of rules. And I 146 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:34.320 thought that was really interesting in this because the broad 147 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:36.799 strokes of the narrative is we have this this convoy, 148 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:42.639 this kind of motley crew of Americans. Right, there's Cia guys, 149 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:47.399 there's the embassy staff that you know, the ambassador, his wife, 150 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:51.639 others all in this convoy kind of trying to join 151 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:56.279 back up with other Americans being chased by a group 152 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:00.399 of Russians. And so yeah, sure, that's the overarching narrative 153 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:02.919 that's what happens in this book, that's what pushes it forward. 154 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:08.759 But for most of the book, just going by page count, 155 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:12.320 the Americans and Russians are separated. They aren't fighting, right, 156 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:15.159 They're being kind of pushed along, And so most of 157 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:19.240 the interactions are with the locals, right, the Africans and 158 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.120 also right, you have this kind of fight against just 159 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:27.720 the hostile terrain. But I thought it was really interesting 160 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:32.720 how it really is this sort of free for all zone. 161 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:36.360 So you have you know, technically hostile forces, Congolese rebels 162 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:39.399 or you know, people who are maybe maybe not allied 163 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:42.960 with the government, who in one instance want nothing to 164 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:45.720 do with this, it's not their fight, and in another instance, 165 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:50.080 for other reasons, become incredibly hostile. And I thought that 166 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:53.080 you portrayed the kind of cultural differences, you know, the 167 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:56.600 gap between the kind of Western and I guess you 168 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:00.799 could say kind of like broader African culture really well, 169 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:05.879 really accurately in that. So I'm curious, right when you 170 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:09.720 were planning this book out, how much were you thinking 171 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:13.159 about that that kind of culture shock because and I'll 172 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.639 give you a more specific example, I think that the 173 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:19.879 character of im not gonna remember her name sorry about that, Philip. 174 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:24.039 But the ambassador's wife is kind of a particularly interesting character, 175 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:26.960 and so I'm curious, right, like, what was your inspiration 176 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:28.879 with that? What were you trying to do with her 177 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:29.720 in this book. 178 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:33.279 Yeah, and there's there's a couple of things that I'm 179 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:36.080 glad you picked up on. The actual conflict between the 180 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:39.799 Russians and the Americans is a very small part of 181 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:43.480 the actual storyline. And you can make the case that 182 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:47.120 none of the Americans except one who learns it about, 183 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:49.639 you know, a third of the way through, even though 184 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:52.799 the Russians are chasing them. You know, they meet the 185 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:57.320 Russians and then run into them one time, and they 186 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:00.799 get away from them, and most of the convoy say, say, 187 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:05.360 one guy has no reason to believe or even suspect 188 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:09.039 that the Russians are looking for that. And so I 189 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:13.679 think that's a that aspect of it is sort of 190 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:16.000 a fog of war thing that if you pick up 191 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:19.960 on it, you kind of understand how the world works, right, 192 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.000 because a lot of books will will tell you and 193 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:26.440 a lot of books will, you know, show that relationship 194 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.759 from both sides, and it will say, you know, everyone knows. 195 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:32.039 And so there's this there's this chase and one side 196 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:33.879 doesn't even know they're being chased, and I think it 197 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:39.519 adds to the tension a little bit. And her name 198 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:44.519 was Nala, the Ambassador's wife. But one of the things 199 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:48.279 about the book is that the book is about people, right, 200 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:51.159 normal people. And one of the things that that sort 201 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:53.320 of irks me about modern media, and we were talking 202 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:57.279 about a little bit before, is it ever one in 203 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:01.399 modern media right now seems to be a superhero in 204 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.200 some way, like they seem to have some sort of superpower. 205 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.440 You know, you get obviously the Marvel characters who all 206 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.000 have their superpowers, or the the Jack Reacher type characters, 207 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.759 who are you know, just mammoth people with brains that 208 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:18.799 are better than everyone else's. You know, the Black Widows 209 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:20.600 and the Black Sparrows or whatever they're called that are 210 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.360 on Netflix. Now everyone's a Special Forces Delta guy or 211 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:27.960 you know, some sort of super advanced CIA person, like 212 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:33.399 everyone's got some special power. But looking back at like 213 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:38.879 ancient literature and then some of the American stories, they're 214 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:43.000 mostly about people, and I think people link to that 215 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.879 a little bit more than if you know, we're talking 216 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.200 about Captain America and Captain America even starts as a 217 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:50.399 as a normal person and he's made into something super 218 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:52.440 But if you look at people who have these superpowers, 219 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:55.039 how do how do you, as a as a young male, 220 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:58.200 relate to that character? Can you? I don't know that 221 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.200 you can, Like you can idolize thatcharacter, but you you 222 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:03.879 can never structure your life or the course of your 223 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.960 life in a way to become a superhero superpowers, right, 224 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:10.240 But you could structure your life in a way to 225 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:13.799 become one of the people in this story because these 226 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:15.960 are all normal people. You know they have sure, they 227 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:17.960 as the military experience where they work at the CIA, 228 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:20.720 but lots of people do that, right, that's not a 229 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:22.840 that's not a superpower, that's a that's a thing that 230 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.639 lots of regular people do. And everyone in the book 231 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:30.279 has sort of a mirror character or a mirror plot line. 232 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.279 You know, there's there's good Africans and bad Africans. There's 233 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:38.000 there's good Americans and bad Americans. There's not a lot 234 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:40.320 of good Russians. But but there are competent Russians and 235 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:44.240 incompetent Russians, right, And so you see this this balance 236 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:46.399 between characters because that's sort of how the how the 237 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:50.320 world works. And I think Nala, the Ambassador's wife, more 238 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:54.559 than anyone in the book, learns more and it has 239 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:59.480 more of a character are character development than almost any 240 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:02.200 other character in the book, right, because she starts off 241 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:08.879 as this this really you know, stereotypical blacks liberal who 242 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:11.960 just you know, hates everything that America does overseas and 243 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.159 things we have this this cultural guilt that all all 244 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:20.639 white people bear. And but in reality, she's learning throughout 245 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:24.480 the book that things aren't always the way they look, 246 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:30.039 and things aren't always the way she understood them going 247 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:32.759 to school at you know, wherever she went to school 248 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:35.720 in Chicago. And so that's that's one of the things 249 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:41.960 that combat and war and in general change the way 250 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:47.480 people view the world, and especially if you're not mentally 251 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.879 prepared to go through those struggles. And and one of 252 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.519 the things that a lot of veterans learn is that 253 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:59.120 the bigger the wall they put up, the harder it 254 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:02.440 is to take get down afterwards. Right. And you try 255 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.159 to try to keep the war out of your psyche, 256 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.440 and you try to prepare yourself for it, but it 257 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:09.360 still gets in there. But if you are not prepared 258 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:12.039 at all, and you just wander into the stress and 259 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:17.519 wander into the environment. It changes you in ways is 260 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:21.039 that maybe you can't even control. And it happens very quickly, 261 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:25.240 like all life and death experiences do. And so she, 262 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:29.080 more than anyone, is one of my favorite characters in 263 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:31.039 the book. And I had people, you know, send me 264 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:34.039 messages being like I hate her, like I hope she 265 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:36.679 I hope she dies like and I was like, yeah, 266 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:39.279 that's the point. You're supposed to not like her when 267 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:41.840 the book starts, and you're supposed to have those feelings. 268 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:44.159 And every time someone texts me that they hated her, 269 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:46.480 I was like, secretly very happy because it means I 270 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:49.320 wrote the character well well. 271 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:53.919 And to give you a compliment, I not only did 272 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:58.200 not like this character, but I will admit read untill 273 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:01.559 about I want to say, kind of seventy five percent mark. 274 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:07.200 I was worried that she would be a very certain 275 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.399 type of character in this book, right, the kind of 276 00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:14.399 like two dimensional stand in for like you know, the 277 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:18.399 SJW woman that we all hate and look like, yeah, 278 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:20.960 I don't like those people either. But when you're reading 279 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:22.679 a book, when you're reading a novel, it's like, well, 280 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:25.919 all right, man, yeah, I dislike those characters too. I 281 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:28.480 dislike those people. So just putting one of them in 282 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:30.960 and holding them up is this kind of like hate figure. 283 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.120 It's like, okay, like, what are we doing. It's not 284 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:38.519 twenty sixteen anymore. But there really is a sort of 285 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:42.399 a very interesting growth with both Nala and her husband, 286 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:48.879 the ambassador. And there's this moment and by the way, Philip, 287 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:50.519 I told you I was not going to offer spoilers. 288 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:52.480 This is going to make no sense unless you've read 289 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:54.559 the book, and I'm not going to give you any details. 290 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:59.360 So by the book. But there's a quiet conversation between 291 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.279 doctor fray Are sort of the main character's wife, and Nala. 292 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:06.839 It's a really interesting interaction. It's a might be my 293 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:09.160 favorite scene in this book. I assume you know what 294 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:11.480 I'm talking about, and I was wondering if you could, 295 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:13.319 you know, explain what's going on there a little bit. 296 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:20.720 Yeah, And I I wrote that scene that I have 297 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:24.920 a I have a sort of a pet peeve about 298 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:29.240 battle scenes. And if you write every gunfight scene from 299 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:32.039 the pov of the person who's in the gunfight scene, 300 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:36.759 it loses context and it loses some of the im 301 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:40.519 pact if you write the scene from the perspective of 302 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.440 a loved one who knows it's happening and they can't 303 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:47.240 do anything right. And the scene that you're referring to, 304 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:51.480 and I actually read about this later about a there's 305 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:54.240 a there's a test that you can apply to movies 306 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:58.160 and TV shows of two women having a conversation about 307 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:01.720 something that's not a man and this did fail that 308 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:04.960 they talk about their husbands for a lengthy period of time. 309 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:09.480 But in the scene major of Frey, who's the main character, 310 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:15.480 is off doing a small quasi raid with some of 311 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:20.200 his guys in the night in Congo. To try to 312 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:25.240 write a sort of historic or sort of contemporary wrong 313 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:31.920 that's happening to some people, the scene is is doctor Frey, 314 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:35.079 Amanda Frey, who's who's major phrase wife, and Nall, who's 315 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:39.839 the ambassador's wife, drinking a bottle of wine as as 316 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:42.559 women are known to do. And they're sort of on 317 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:47.440 this hill and they're overlooking where Amanda Pray's husband is 318 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:52.720 on this very life and death sort of raid, and 319 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.160 they can see the battle, they can hear it, they 320 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:58.119 can see the flashes because this at night, they can 321 00:18:58.160 --> 00:18:59.960 see the fires, they can see all sorts of stuff, 322 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:05.200 but they're talking about people, and they're talking about, you know, 323 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:10.960 their different upbringings and having come from somewhat of a 324 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.880 upper middle class, lower upper class background. When I joined 325 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:18.880 the army, there were a lot of people who said, 326 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:22.359 did you like, did something happen? Like did you get arrested? 327 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:24.400 Did like? Is there is there a reason this is 328 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:26.640 happening to you? And you're not going to Pepperdine or 329 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.839 whatever school that they expect me to go to. And 330 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.119 I said, no, this is something I want to do. 331 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:35.279 And they're like, well, I don't know what happened to you. 332 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:40.720 You must have gotten arrested and just And that is 333 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:46.079 a conversation that almost plays out directly in this story 334 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:51.519 where Naala Brown, who is the ambassador's wife, has these 335 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:56.039 preconceived notions of you know, the phrase background and she 336 00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.480 knows Amanda phrase the doctor, and but she just assume that, 337 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.400 you know, Alex the major comes from this, like, you know, 338 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:06.799 I think I referred to as a directional state school 339 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:12.039 like your Southwest Missouri College of Science and Art. But 340 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.720 he had gone to an ivying school. And that's not 341 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:17.519 as rare as it may sound. I knew quite a 342 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:20.319 few guys who who had that sort of background when 343 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:24.640 they joined the army. But it's a it's a sort 344 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:30.559 of a a breaking moment for her knowing that the 345 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:34.440 people that she is is watching risk their lives to 346 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:38.839 do something that she's only ever dreamed of doing are 347 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.759 people that aren't so different from her. And it sort 348 00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:50.200 of is a a moment where she realizes that if 349 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:55.880 this thing that I thought so vehemently is wrong, what 350 00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:58.519 else is wrong in my life? It's it's her her 351 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:01.880 moment of Gelman amnesia. I like, I realized this one 352 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:05.440 thing is off? What else is off? In all of 353 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:09.160 my other world views? And they were in the book. 354 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:11.079 There have been a conversation that happened the night before 355 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:15.400 and then this action, And one of my favorite parts 356 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.240 of the scene is where she's thinking about, you know, 357 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:23.039 all of these these young men, these young Americans who 358 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:26.400 weren't from Africa, they had all volunteered to go on 359 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:28.440 this rate, like none of them had had said they 360 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:32.039 want to stay behind. And that's how that's how it works. 361 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:35.400 Like you know, most of them are young Marines. They 362 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:37.160 want to go do the thing that they had trained 363 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:38.720 to do. They want to go out and be close 364 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:41.359 to it with their with their brothers, and it's a 365 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:43.759 it's a life changing moment for her to see these 366 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:46.720 people who have no vested interest in this village in 367 00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:50.559 Africa volunteer to maybe maybe die to avenge it. 368 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:59.519 There's there's another character much less important to the overall story, 369 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.319 but I think it's kind of an interesting compare and contrast. 370 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:06.079 Which is the character? I believe her name is Meredith? 371 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.079 Is it Emmer's? Is that the name. 372 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:09.880 Emmon? 373 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:14.799 Excuse me? Who is this? I believe she's from Princeton 374 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:17.839 who comes to work in this village I believe with 375 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:25.279 doctors without borders and very makes it an understandable but 376 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:29.240 sort of interesting decision. And so, you know, if if 377 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:33.240 you could, could you describe who she is, why she's 378 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:36.160 important to the story, and also, you know, this kind 379 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:41.079 of central theme of trying to fix Africa right, trying 380 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:45.839 to like make it like you know, Beverly Hills, because 381 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.599 that's something that comes up over and over through this. 382 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:53.119 And you know there's another albeit a different, you know, 383 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:55.519 part of this plot that has to do with you know, 384 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.319 the Chinese sort of trying to come in and you know, 385 00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:03.039 shore extract resources. But it seems as if through this book, 386 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:06.160 no matter who is trying, and whether it's the Russians, 387 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:10.880 the Chinese, the Americans, Africa remained sort of unchanged. And 388 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:12.720 so I realized, I threw a bunch of you there, Philip, 389 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:14.200 and I'm curious to get your thoughts. 390 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:19.400 Yeah, and and and first of all, the book is 391 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:25.519 is definitely not anti colonialism. It's not pro colonialism, but 392 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:29.400 it has a more realistic view of of what colonialism 393 00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:37.759 was in Africa especially. But one of the things about Africa, 394 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:42.319 and it's a it's a very Western belief that with 395 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:46.440 enough hard work, we can make something better. And when 396 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:48.839 we when we look at that, and we look at 397 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.440 that sort of juxtaposition in our in our Western minds, 398 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:54.799 we look at the land and we say, you know, 399 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:57.920 with enough hard work, we can till this land. And 400 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:02.279 we can. We can make western Oklahoma, you know, able 401 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.200