WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:07.960 Oh he is boot it's shoot tied. 2 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:10.560 People say, good money to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:12.160 When they go out to a theater. 4 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.160 They want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters in 5 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:17.199 the protection booth. 6 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:20.879 Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring it off. 7 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:41.640 You've got one hundred dollars efforts around here trying to 8 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:44.359 get a shot at me. I'm scared, I'm to shoot me. 9 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:46.799 I didn't go down there to be a bafoone. I 10 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:49.960 went down there for funding, and I thought I have 11 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:52.960 been the white nail. 12 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:57.359 If he pulls this gun and points at me, I'm 13 00:00:57.399 --> 00:00:58.119 gonna shoot him. 14 00:00:58.479 --> 00:00:59.679 I'll go up. 15 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:02.920 My god, he's gonna shoot him. 16 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:05.680 On television, he's coming out, He's coming out. 17 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:07.640 I charge, and they've admitted it. 18 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:09.760 He had a cable around a man's throat a task 19 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:11.560 the shotgun, so there's no way to get the shotgun 20 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:12.480 away from a man's head. 21 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:18.640 In nineteen seventy seven, Tony Kuritzis kidnapped a mortgage broker 22 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:21.319 and held him captive for three days, so the first 23 00:01:21.400 --> 00:01:24.599 time ever the media was able to cover the event live. 24 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:27.719 To some Tony was a hero. To others, he was 25 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:28.760 a crazed thug. 26 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:33.799 I knew what a shotgun sounded like, and I knew 27 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:34.799 that was a shotgun. 28 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:43.680 Dead Man's Line, the true story of Tony kurtzis. 29 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:51.120 Hey, folks, welcome to a special episode of the Projection Booth. 30 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:54.599 On this episode, I'm talking with Alan Berry and Mark Enox. 31 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:59.719 They are the co directors of the twenty eighteen documentary 32 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:05.239 dead Man's Line. It is the story of Tony Kerritzits 33 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:12.360 who took a person hostage down in Indianapolis by putting 34 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:17.280 a looped wire around the guy's neck which was connected 35 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:22.400 to the trigger of a shotgun. Pretty harrowing documentary. It 36 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.439 is going to be or has been turned into a 37 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:30.319 narrative film that was directed by Gus van Zandt and 38 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:34.960 that is coming out in January twenty twenty six, so 39 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:36.919 it might be out by the time you listen to this. 40 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:41.280 But this is talking about the original story, the original documentary, 41 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:45.120 and I really enjoyed talking with Alan and Mark. I 42 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:48.159 think that they did a terrific job and the movies 43 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:51.039 now available for free on YouTube, so you can check 44 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:54.080 it out and hole and enjoy it just the way 45 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:56.919 that I did. Hope you enjoy this interview and definitely 46 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.240 check out dead Man's line. I'll have the link to 47 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:04.240 it and show notes over our projection dash booth dot com. Mark, 48 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:06.080 I want to start with you. How do you and 49 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:07.199 Alan know each other? 50 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:11.840 Let's see, we met in high school. I think we 51 00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:16.479 were in history class together and we just became friends. 52 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:19.120 And it is odd, out of all the friends that 53 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:22.240 I had in high school, me and Alan are the 54 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:24.159 only ones I'm really still closely. 55 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:24.280 In touch with. 56 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:28.199 And how did you guys start working together? 57 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:32.520 I was changing careers. I had owned record stores for 58 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:35.280 like twenty years and of course that was dying, so 59 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:37.759 I had to find a new career path for me 60 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:41.439 and always had an interest in video work. Matter of fact, 61 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:44.199 Market helped me with some video to stuff we did 62 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:46.599 with my business, so it just seemed like a nice transition. 63 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:51.000 And documentaries were always an interest to both of us. 64 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:56.840 So we had done a documentary with Indianapolis Mayor Greg 65 00:03:56.960 --> 00:03:59.960 Ballard called Behind the Sash and it went real well, 66 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:03.560 all the mayor liked it, et cetera. And then so 67 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:06.639 we started looking at what project do we want to 68 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:08.479 do next? Because we definitely wanted to do a next one, 69 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:11.639 so we created this my top ten list of ideas 70 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:16.439 and Mark I had the list of Tony Kurtzis. I 71 00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:19.639 didn't have a great remembrance of him, of the story, 72 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:21.639 even though I lived through it, But Mark, I think 73 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:22.079 you did. 74 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:22.920 Yeah. 75 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:26.920 I remember in the summer of seventy seven, so we 76 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:29.800 were watching TV and often we would see the noon 77 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:35.439 news come up, and during that summer the event happened 78 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:39.160 in February, but in the summer they were going through 79 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:42.959 the process of grand jury and they were evaluating Tony 80 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:45.439 on whether or not he could he was mentally competent 81 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:48.399 to stand trial, and so they kept showing a lot 82 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:52.000 of that footage and I just you know, was burned 83 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:56.279 into my brain that image of this little guy with 84 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:59.120 a shotgun wired to this taller guy's neck and just 85 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:01.680 pushing him aroun and the police not able to do it. 86 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:04.560 And for whatever reason, when we came to try to 87 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:06.439 figure out what we want to do next, this idea 88 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:09.600 came up and we actually held a vote with our 89 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:11.519 family and friends around us, and this is the one 90 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:12.360 that rose to the top. 91 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:15.240 What year was this that you guys did behind the 92 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:19.639 sash and decided to do this other documentary twenty twelve. 93 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:25.399 It was right after the Super Bowl was here in Indianapolis, 94 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:28.680 and you know, Ballard was fresh off that he did 95 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:31.720 some stuff with Jimmy Fallon, and so we started, i 96 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:35.240 think late twenty twelve, trying to find people to interview 97 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.000 for the Tony Kurtzy story. 98 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:39.800 How do you guys work together, like when it comes 99 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:43.399 to diving up the work and deciding like who you're 100 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:46.480 going to pursue as far as interviews, do you what's 101 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:47.600 that process look like? 102 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:52.199 I think it's just come kind of organically. So Mark's Moore, 103 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:57.279 the historian studious person, and I've been more into the 104 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:00.279 video world, but that video as my day job, so 105 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:01.920 they just kind of it just kind of fell into 106 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:04.519 place of what of who did what. I don't think 107 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:06.480 we ever had a conversation of you doing this and 108 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:08.120 I'm doing that. I think it was more of just 109 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:12.160 where each person's strength lied. That's who did it. 110 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:16.680 You start with basic research, So there was a lot 111 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:20.120 of time spent in the State Library looking through old 112 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:24.839 Indianapolis Star articles because that was really the only record. 113 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:27.879 The hard, hard part, and Alan did a lot of 114 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:30.639 this was reaching out to people who were connected with it, 115 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:35.600 and it started with cameraman usually from the local stations 116 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:40.279 It's incredible that a lot of these stations they owned, 117 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:43.279 you know, the material and the footage, but they just 118 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:49.000 did not put any effort into keeping it. So some 119 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:52.480 of them threw away their files. Some of them actually 120 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:56.319 threw away footage in a dumpster, and other instances they 121 00:06:56.439 --> 00:07:00.959 taped over tapes television stations. Right right immediately, we knew 122 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:02.920 we weren't going to get anything there. They didn't have 123 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:06.560 a good library system, they weren't organized. So we were 124 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:09.920 able to start reaching out to actual cameraman who still 125 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:12.399 in many cases had some copy of the film. 126 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:16.680 So we did get some from local stations, but Mark's wright, 127 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:19.920 a lot of the tape back then seemed to be 128 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:22.800 more valuable than the actual archives to them, so they 129 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:25.959 would just copy over them. So a big chunk of 130 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:30.639 it was from the individual actual videographers, photographers and newspeople 131 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.439 that just kept their own reels. But we did get 132 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:37.480 some from local channels as well. The story that Mark 133 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:41.240 is talking about about digging out the trash can, that's 134 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:44.160 a true story from Jack Parker. Jack Parker was a 135 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:49.160 local videographer and he was actually our first big interview 136 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.279 we landed because he was very supportive of us, and 137 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:55.879 he let us use his footage, and by talking to 138 00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:00.560 him first, he opened up the doors to like our 139 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:02.600 next person, and then our next person. Because when you're 140 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:04.680 reaching out trying to get people to do your to 141 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:06.600 do the interviews, you have to have a little bit 142 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:08.800 of well we talked to this person, when we talked 143 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:11.360 to that person. And I gotta say Jack Parker was 144 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:13.839 very key into starting this whole ball rolling. 145 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:18.759 I can testify that the video cassettes were more valuable 146 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:20.639 than what was on them a lot of times working 147 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.319 at a local cable station. Obviously we had transitioned from 148 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.079 film into video by seventy seven, But what type of 149 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:30.720 video were they using with this one inch three quarter inch? 150 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:32.919 Sorry to be nerdy, but I'm so curious. 151 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:37.159 No, it's fair. It's everything. So so all all different 152 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:40.159 types every which way, because some of them had already 153 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:42.840 been transferred. And if you're a film nerd or a 154 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:45.919 video nerd, and you know what interlace footage is versus 155 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:49.000 non interlas, some of the interlace, you know, is already 156 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:51.879 baked in, So when you see those like lines across 157 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:54.960 the video, you can't get that out once it's baked in. 158 00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:57.559 So it was just it was a hodgepodge of all 159 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:02.639 types of media, even real real tapes, cassette, say, CDs, DVDs. 160 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:05.559 I don't know that you could name a certain type 161 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:08.080 of media that we didn't have to work with. And 162 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:12.480 the challenge there is is some of those things we 163 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:14.759 didn't have the equipment to transfer, so that's where we'd 164 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:17.080 have find a company that did it, hire it out, 165 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:19.840 and then transfer it. I was always looking for the 166 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:23.320 highest quality source, so sometimes we'd get a snippet here 167 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:26.240 and there, but the quality would be degraded, and then 168 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:28.639 two years later we'd get closer to the source from 169 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:29.360 somebody else. 170 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:32.399 So are you taking all this and digitizing it and 171 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:35.960 putting into onto a hard drive or what's your medium then, 172 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:40.279 because obviously twenty twelve when you start this project, things 173 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:42.360 have changed over the last thirteen years. 174 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:47.519 Sure, yeah, no, that's exactly right. Digitize it. So digitize it, 175 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:49.519 put it on the hard drive, back it up, and 176 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:53.320 then I was using a final cut as how what 177 00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:55.440 I was adding. But yeah, just got it all digitized, 178 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.120 made sure it was backed up. Some of the people 179 00:09:58.120 --> 00:09:59.799 would give us their originals, but then when of course 180 00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:01.879 we have to give him back to I won't have 181 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:04.080 any of the original stuff, but I have we have 182 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:05.679 pristine copies of that. 183 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:09.039 You're starting to dig through the archives. How Mark you 184 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:11.480 talked about going to the library and start looking through 185 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:14.840 the microfeah and everything, and then you know you're getting 186 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:18.279 all this footage. When do you start doing these interviews 187 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:19.759 or how do you figure out who you need to 188 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:21.519 talk to and how to approach them? 189 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:27.120 Well, like with Jack Parker WTTV cameraman, we just went 190 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:32.159 to his house and at the time I didn't know 191 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:35.960 the whole story, so I would ask him questions about 192 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:38.679 all sorts of things, even even stuff that he probably 193 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:42.000 wasn't even a part of, and that became the model 194 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.559 going forward. We interviewed forty five different people, and some 195 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.039 of them are police, some of them are media, some 196 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:53.799 of them are family friends. And it was really it 197 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:56.799 was a journey of discovery, like who knew what about 198 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:00.480 about what part? So often I would add them all 199 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.559 the questions and just try to figure out where what 200 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.559 parts could they give us information on And it was surprising. 201 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:10.240 There were times somebody'd come in you think they didn't 202 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:11.960 play any role at all, but they were there for 203 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:16.279 one key part. They were there for Tony being arrested, 204 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:18.759 or they were there on the street when Tony's marching 205 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.120 Dick called down down the sidewalk. It was a piece here, 206 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:25.399 piece there. It was kind of interesting because a lot 207 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:27.399 of times I'd go into the interview think if they 208 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:29.480 probably don't know anything about this, but I'm gonna go 209 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:32.840 ahead ask the question, and sometimes you're really surprised with 210 00:11:32.919 --> 00:11:35.399 a great nugget of historical information. 211 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:41.240 The whole five years was interviewing and finding resources. We 212 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:44.360 found historical archives all the way up till the end 213 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:47.759 of doing interview. So it never we had, as I think, 214 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:50.039 we had to kind of decide to end right. We 215 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.039 could have probably gone and finding more, but at some 216 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:55.519 point you got to say, all right, let's let's wrap 217 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:58.919 this up right. So your question about, you know, doing 218 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:02.200 the interviews and finding the sources of media, it went 219 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:05.039 hand in hand. And like Mark said, neither one of 220 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:08.399 us really knew the full backstory when we first started. 221 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:12.519 It was really just kind of evolved. Now if you 222 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:15.279 google it today, you'll find a lot about it. Because 223 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:17.919 now this is going to sound egotistical, but it's because 224 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:20.720 we found out a lot of this information that was 225 00:12:21.159 --> 00:12:23.960 kind of locked behind people's memories of it. And the 226 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:26.919 other thing that was interesting about people's memories is I 227 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:30.919 don't think there was one guest that didn't have something 228 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:34.440 wrong with what they remembered, because everybody's memory fails them, right. 229 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:36.200 So we used to just use like a try and 230 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:39.759 you know, we like, if three people agreed on it 231 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:42.279 and we found a news report on it, then we said, okay, 232 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.360 that's probably true. But it just one person said something 233 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:48.360 about it and three other people disagreed, we probably figured 234 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:49.759 they were wrong. So some of the people that were 235 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:52.879 the closest to us still got things wrong about the event. 236 00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:56.799 The documentary being pieced together from all of these different 237 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:00.759 sources kind of lends itself to that idea of what 238 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.600 are the pieces of people's memories that are there and 239 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:04.960 what could be validated. 240 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:09.639 It was incredible, Like Dick Hall wrote a book about it. 241 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:13.360 He was the victim here the hostage, and a lot 242 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:15.960 of what he has in there I believe zaccurate. But 243 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:17.879 there are a couple of things here and there it's like, Nope, 244 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:19.559 that's not what happened. And we know that because we 245 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:22.120 talked to other people and we have footage of what happened. 246 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:25.679 Another thing that was interesting. It was a good thing 247 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:28.600 we started in twenty twelve because a lot of these 248 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:32.159 people they were getting on in years, and some of them, 249 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:35.120 some key people we were able to interview, they passed 250 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.200 away not long after that. That was another interesting thing too, 251 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:43.039 There were some individuals that we couldn't talk to. Tony 252 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:44.200 had already passed away. 253 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.279 If you look at our list of interviewees, I would 254 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:50.639 say two thirds of them have already passed. A big 255 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:53.080 chunk of the people that we interviewed have already gone. 256 00:13:53.480 --> 00:13:57.720 And just to clarify on Dick Hall's book, that wasn't 257 00:13:57.799 --> 00:14:00.279 until we were pretty much done with the film when 258 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.720 his book came out, So when Mark read it, we 259 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:06.679 already knew a lot of the stuff. As a matter 260 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.679 of fact, Dick Hall, we did try to interview him too, 261 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:14.240 but he wasn't interested. I don't think. I mean, it 262 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:15.960 was a little bit creepy maybe, but like I even 263 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:17.600 went to his house and just knocked on his door 264 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:19.799 because I was trying to I want him to be 265 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:22.200 able to tell his side of the story, because by 266 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:23.960 that point we had talked to Tony Kuriz as the 267 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.879 brother I think the driving force for Mark and I 268 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:29.919 both was we want this to be accurate. We want 269 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:32.759 this to be truthful. We don't really have a dog 270 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:35.120 and to where the story ends up, if Tony was 271 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:38.240 right or wrong, if Dick Hall was involved or whatever. 272 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:41.519 We just wanted the truth. So we thought, man, we 273 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:45.159 really need to have Dick Hall on this project, on 274 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.759 the record. But it never came to be. 275 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:51.120 It's almost good that you don't, though, because you don't 276 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:55.000 get his voice over Tony's or vice versa. You don't 277 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:57.480 have a privileged point of view from us. 278 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:00.399 Yeah, that's a great point. Because the Dick Call had 279 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:02.679 agreed to speak with us, we more than likely would 280 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:03.879 have built the film around him. 281 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:06.559 So tell me more about Tony. I want to know 282 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:07.600 more about this guy. 283 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.720 When we see him in nineteen seventy seven, a lot 284 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:13.279 of things have already happened in his life. At one 285 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:17.279 point in nineteen sixty his family owned a trailer park 286 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:20.240 and he came on and began to be the manager 287 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:25.039 of that. He's a really hard to nail down guy. 288 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:27.639 You can look at the film and say he's a thug, 289 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:30.799 he's just a criminal. You can look at the film 290 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:34.240 and say he's a hero. He's a little guy standing 291 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:38.159 up against a mortgage company. A lot of people who 292 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:40.759 he lived around and took care of the property. They 293 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.840 loved him. He was helpful, he fixed things for him, 294 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:46.559 he got groceries for them, and he did a lot 295 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:50.679 of work on the property. And then something started to 296 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.399 happen in the mid sixties with the family. Tony felt 297 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:57.639 he wasn't being compensated for all that he was doing, 298 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:02.279 and an argument broke out. He's got three brothers and 299 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:05.919 a sister who also a part of this, mainly his sister, Effie, 300 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:10.039 was the manager of the trailer park, and Tony demanded 301 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:14.120 that he be paid for work that he done. They 302 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:17.480 weren't going for it. And so this is not in 303 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:20.039 the film. It's this is because there's not a lot 304 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.559 of evidence, hard evidence of what happened. But he went 305 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:28.399 to Effie's house with a pistol and took her hostage 306 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:31.480 inside her house, demanding he'd be paid. I believe it 307 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:36.320 was fifty thousand dollars, and the whole family gets involved. 308 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:38.240 Jimmy kritzis who is in the film. 309 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.360 He gets in there. He's friends with police. 310 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:45.120 The police know Tony because Tony was very friendly with police, 311 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:48.679 especially on the west side of Indianapolis in the Speedway area. 312 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:49.399 They knew him. 313 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:53.679 They were able to get Tony to release Effie that time. 314 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:59.639 This is nineteen sixty eight. He was arrested and charged, 315 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.080 but over the course of a year that trial didn't 316 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:06.720 go anywhere. There was a they eventually threw out over 317 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:11.480 an affidavit that they didn't believe was acceptable. So a 318 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:13.759 lot of disappointment there. The family felt he should have 319 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.279 gone to prison for that, but instead he gets the money. 320 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.519 He parts ways with most of the family, though he 321 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.079 remains in contact with his brother Jimmy and his half 322 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:26.759 brother George Ergo, and he takes that money and buys 323 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:30.720 a piece of land. It's kind of convoluted. We're still 324 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:33.279 finding information on how that land was bought, how the 325 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:36.960 money was exchanged. But he bought this piece of land 326 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:40.680 that he wanted to then develop and so by nineteen 327 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:43.839 seventy three, that's when he walks into the Merdian mortgage 328 00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:46.400 to speak with Dick Hall's father, em Mel Hall, who 329 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:50.839 was the boss of the whole operation, and he gets 330 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:55.799 alone to develop that property. It doesn't work the way 331 00:17:55.880 --> 00:18:00.720 Tony wants. He has to end up in otiating the loan, 332 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:03.559 get a little more money, and this deadline is looming 333 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:08.480 of March first, nineteen seventy seven. Tony feels that mL 334 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:12.440 Hall steered people away from it, accusing mL Hall of 335 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:15.359 wanting to just collect the land himself and get more 336 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.119 money out of it. So Tony has this real I've 337 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:23.000 been screwed attitude, and that's what leads him to do 338 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:27.599 what he did. He was mentally declining in the months 339 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:30.079 leading up. I mean he talked about he couldn't sleep, 340 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:33.920 he had all sorts of physical problems, painting his leg 341 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.359 from walking all of a sudden. But all the while 342 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.319 he's also methodically planning out how is he going to 343 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:45.359 take mL Hall hostage and not be shot immediately by 344 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.640 the police. That's where his contraption comes in the dead 345 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:53.519 man's line. And as we know, mL Hall wasn't in 346 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:56.920 the office the day that Tony went in there, but 347 00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:59.680 Tony didn't want to back down off his plan, and 348 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:04.039 that's why he takes Dick Hall hostage. Dick Hall really 349 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.640 didn't have a lot to do with the loan. It 350 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:09.519 was almost all Tony and mL But at that time 351 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:13.680 mL had gone to Florida with his wife for vacation, 352 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:18.799 and so begins the whole, the whole story of him 353 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:20.079 taking Dick hostage. 354 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.839 He was developing the land for shopping center, and that's 355 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:28.799 he thought mL Hall was was directing potential clients that 356 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.880 would would would you know or store owners away. 357 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:34.519 From that property. I think I know the answer to this. 358 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:38.799 But in your guys' opinion, was Hall doing any of 359 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:43.480 these things which Hall mL or even his Sun, but 360 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:44.559 especially mL. 361 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:50.079 mL Hall was into real estate, and we found lots 362 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.880 of articles that suggested maybe he was doing some things, 363 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.759 but that wasn't exactly right. You know, there would be 364 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:59.680 people of Asian descent or African Americans that he would 365 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.480 block from buying the houses in certain neighborhoods. There's some 366 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.440 evidence of that. But the really big thing that we 367 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:13.160 found was in nineteen fifty seven, mL Hall was convicted 368 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:17.680 of a federal crime, and that was he would overcharge 369 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:22.799 people who were buying homes approved by the Veterans Administration. 370 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:27.640 And the Veterans Administration sets a price for a piece 371 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:30.000 of land. You cannot go above that no matter what, 372 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.880 and in a couple of cases, mL Hall was charging 373 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.240 them additional money six hundred dollars, you know, to fix this, 374 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:38.880 twelve hundred dollars to fix that. 375 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:41.920 This happened in fifty two fifty three. 376 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.839 It took a few years to go to trial, but 377 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:47.960 he and a couple of his compatriots were found guilty 378 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:51.279 of doing that. So in the back of my head, 379 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:54.000 I'm always thinking, look, if he would do that, if 380 00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:57.599 you would do something means the Veterans Administration. This is 381 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:01.359 not local, this is like, this is national, this is big. 382 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:03.359 I don't know how you think you're going to get 383 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:05.440 away with that. And he didn't he would do that? 384 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.799 Is it really so implausible that he would jerk Tony 385 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:12.880 around so that he could get this land and then 386 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.519 sell it himself to Osco Jewel or some other you know, 387 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:18.720 somebody else who wanted to put in a strip mall. 388 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:24.799 We always looked for hard evidence of did mL Hall 389 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:28.039 do anything to screw over Tony. We can never find 390 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:32.079 any factual evidence that he did. There was no paperwork, 391 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:34.920 there's no documentation. So does that mean mL Hall didn't 392 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:38.200 do anything shady? We're not for sure, but mL Hall 393 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:41.640 definitely was a shady character. I mean think, like Mark said, 394 00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:44.680 this is ten years after World War Two and he's 395 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:49.400 he's screwing over veterans, So it's not a far leap 396 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:52.559 to think that he might do something towards Tony, but 397 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:55.960 we never really found that hard piece of evidence. 398 00:21:56.599 --> 00:22:00.319 To Dick Hall, his involvement was he wasn't with the 399 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.680 loan that there were a couple times when he did 400 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.559 witness his father. One time they got Tony and EML 401 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:10.880