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Speaker 1: Ero dot net. It's more than just a podcast. It's

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twenty different podcasts. It is a network, it is a choice.

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It's an opportunity for you to hang out without going,

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oh my god, the same old news stories over and

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over again. How many times can I hear that play?

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By playing college basketball? I get it, man, I get it.

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Ero dot net A r r oe dot net. You

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can get your sports all level of sports, from gaming

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to professional wrestling, college. We're talking to the biggest names.

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In fact, I even't spent some time with Kareem abdul Jabbar.

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Say what Aro dot net A r r oe dot net.

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Enjoy your exploration. How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm great? How are you?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely fantastic and very excited to share a conversation with

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you because you had me at hello with just that

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book cover how to disagree Better? And you know what,

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I would love to know what everybody else does and

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in reacting to those moments where we don't because I

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know there's always three reactions for me.

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Speaker 2: What are your three reactions?

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Speaker 1: I either pull out my inner Montana and I take

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you on and I will win, and number two, I'll

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walk away or number three I'll go Really, that's interesting,

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let me sit down, let me, let me do some

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research and see how close we are and agree in here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Well, and you know, in my mind that

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third option is, you know, a great option, the option

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of sort of exploring and trying to understand what's happening

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and understand the other person's perspective before you decide on

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how to you know, approach the situation is something that

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most people don't do right. Most people jump into either

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I'm going to convince you, I'm going to make you

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change your mind, I'm going to prove to you that

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you're wrong and I'm right, or people just sort of say, look,

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I don't want to have this argument today. This is

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not going to lead to anything positive, and they walk away.

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And both of those things are lost opportunities, right, because

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you could have an interesting conversation, you could learn something,

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you could build a better relationship, and you've lost that

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opportunity by doing one of the first two things.

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Speaker 1: Well, you put a lot of focus on receptiveness, and

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I mean it's one of those things where it's like

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it's okay to have an opposing view, but basically you

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need to have the art of listening tucked inside your

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front your pocket. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know, the book is called How to

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Disagree Better. So I'm not saying we have to agree.

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I am saying we need to be able to disagree

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while being receptive to the other person's perspective. Meaning you know,

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when I say receptive, I mean can you really hear it?

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Can you think about it? Can you evaluate the merits

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of that perspective the way you sort of evaluate the

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merits of arguments on your own side, right, So you

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don't have to agree, but can you make the same

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amount of space in your brain for the things you

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disagree with as you know the things you agree with.

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So that's really what receptiveness is.

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Speaker 1: The importance of this book is so way up on

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top of the list, and I really do suggest that

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listeners go for this book. And the reason why is

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because you know, I grew up in this age of

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there was a thing called grumpy old man syndrome. I

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think that actually starts at twenty nine or thirty years

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old nowadays because of the stuff that people have gone through,

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So people have got their opinions right away, they're ready

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to fight, they're ready to disagree, and it's like, calm down,

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get this book in your hands and start getting along

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with all generations and not just yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, and that's exactly right. I think

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most of the time when people talk about disagreement, what

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they're thinking about these days is political disagreement.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but you know.

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Speaker 2: The reality is right, I can go ten years without

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ever debating immigration with anybody, right, But I can't go

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through life without, you know, talking to my spouse about

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how we parent, without talking to my elderly parents about

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how they're taking care of themselves, without you know, talking

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to people in my workplace about how we do things.

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There are some disagreements that are really really important and

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actually make a big difference in your life, and so

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you've got to be able to navigate those without starting

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a bunch of drama and without having the other person

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run out.

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Speaker 1: Of the room. I think one of my biggest disagreements

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right now at one of my essential jobs, because I

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love being with people, I really do, and that is

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is that the younger generation does not care about what's

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going on. And people will argue with me on that.

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I'm going listen, I talk with them. They aren't afraid

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that the World war could be right around the corner.

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They aren't afraid of the economy. All they care about

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is where's my smartphone? Where's my earbuds? And it's like, okay,

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just don't argue, don't argue, don't argue. How would you

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deal and how are you dealing with this?

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Speaker 2: Well? You know, I think most people don't like disagreement.

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They don't you know, they think of disagreement as you know,

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leading to conflict. Right. They don't want to be ostracized

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by their peers. And that's you know, when you're a teenager,

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there's nothing more important to you than what your friends

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think of you. And we as adults, we don't teach

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them to disagree, right. We teach them to be polite.

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We don't teach them to express their views in a

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way that is respectful but also clear and that also

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engages the other person conversation. So a lot of what

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I'm actually working on right now is creating materials for

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high schools to teach kids to disagree better.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, because I deal with a lot

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of high schools. Oh my god. And it's not unnecessarily

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what I said, it's how I said it. By using

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what I call hidden speak. There's a language of all

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your own. You can say something and people go what

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it used to say? But you know, darn good well

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what he just said and or she and it was

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meant to be a dagger going into your heart.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, right, So you have to figure out how

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to communicate your intentions more clearly. Right. If you have

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good intentions, you've got to use your words to say, Look,

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I'm here to understand you, I'm here to learn about

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your perspective. I'd like to know where you're coming from,

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what experiences you have had, and so, you know, we

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don't want to leave people guessing about what our intentions are.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Julia Minsen coming

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up next. Hey, thanks for coming back to the conversation.

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Let's get back into it with Julia Minson. The book

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we're talking about is How to Disagree Better. My question

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is is that are we fighting less because we've made

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it so easy to ghosting?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You know. So it's funny. There's like two problems

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that are happening at the same time, and they seem

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like the opposite problems, but they're actually the same problem.

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Where some people are yelling and screaming all the time

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and you see this on social media, Right, people just

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just like throw grenades out there, and you know, watch

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the world blow up and other people people say, I

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want to have nothing to do with this. Right, I'm

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turning off social media, I'm turning off the news. I'm

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never talking about politics again if anybody brings it up.

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I'm talking about the weather. And both of those things

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are a problem because what that leaves you with is

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that only the loudest, most obnoxious people are part of

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the conversation. And part of the reason I wrote this

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book is because there are lots of people in the

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world who don't want conflict, who don't want drama, but

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who have interesting things to say and who have interesting

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opinions and thoughts that we would all benefit from. So

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how do we make disagreement more constructive so that more

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people are in the conversation, not just like the loud people.

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Speaker 1: Julia Cameron in the artist way says that anger is

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only a symptom. It has become a weapon here. I

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mean it's like, how can And that's what I love

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about your book, As you're saying, Hey, look, it doesn't

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have to be a weapon. Just listen to it. Maybe

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it is a symptom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think anger usually, you know, in conversation, right,

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I mean, there's lots of reasons for anger, But in conversation,

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anger often comes from frustration. Right. I've been telling you

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how it is, and I'm giving you the facts, and

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I'm trying to enlighten you, and you won't change your mind,

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and so I get frustrated, and eventually that frustration escalates

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into anger. And one way to get out of that

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dynamic is to stop treating every conversation like an argument. Right.

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I don't need you to change your mind necessarily. What

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I need to do is perhaps have a good working

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relationship with you, or understand where you're coming from, or

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just you know, get out of this conversation unscathed. Right. So,

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if we give up the idea of telling people that

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they're wrong as the only goal of a conversation, then

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we're much less likely to end up in that dynamic

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where we're frustrated and angry.

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Speaker 1: Ten minutes with you is not enough. Where can we

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go to find out more about you? Because I know

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as I dive into your book, I'm yellow highlighting the

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whole damn thing. And it's such a great tool, but

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I want to know more about you, and I'm sure

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listeners do too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So my website is Disagreeingbetter dot com and the

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book is how to Disagree Better and you can get

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it today and where books are sold.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Please come back to this show anytime

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in the future. This is an everyday thing. This is

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not like, oh, we're going to talk about it at

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the beginning of spring. We need to be talking about

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this more often or am I disagreeing with somebody here?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today? Okay, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Have a wonderful day.