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Enjoy your exploration. How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm great? How are you?
Speaker 1: Absolutely fantastic and very excited to share a conversation with
you because you had me at hello with just that
book cover how to disagree Better? And you know what,
I would love to know what everybody else does and
in reacting to those moments where we don't because I
know there's always three reactions for me.
Speaker 2: What are your three reactions?
Speaker 1: I either pull out my inner Montana and I take
you on and I will win, and number two, I'll
walk away or number three I'll go Really, that's interesting,
let me sit down, let me, let me do some
research and see how close we are and agree in here.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Well, and you know, in my mind that
third option is, you know, a great option, the option
of sort of exploring and trying to understand what's happening
and understand the other person's perspective before you decide on
how to you know, approach the situation is something that
most people don't do right. Most people jump into either
I'm going to convince you, I'm going to make you
change your mind, I'm going to prove to you that
you're wrong and I'm right, or people just sort of say, look,
I don't want to have this argument today. This is
not going to lead to anything positive, and they walk away.
And both of those things are lost opportunities, right, because
you could have an interesting conversation, you could learn something,
you could build a better relationship, and you've lost that
opportunity by doing one of the first two things.
Speaker 1: Well, you put a lot of focus on receptiveness, and
I mean it's one of those things where it's like
it's okay to have an opposing view, but basically you
need to have the art of listening tucked inside your
front your pocket. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know, the book is called How to
Disagree Better. So I'm not saying we have to agree.
I am saying we need to be able to disagree
while being receptive to the other person's perspective. Meaning you know,
when I say receptive, I mean can you really hear it?
Can you think about it? Can you evaluate the merits
of that perspective the way you sort of evaluate the
merits of arguments on your own side, right, So you
don't have to agree, but can you make the same
amount of space in your brain for the things you
disagree with as you know the things you agree with.
So that's really what receptiveness is.
Speaker 1: The importance of this book is so way up on
top of the list, and I really do suggest that
listeners go for this book. And the reason why is
because you know, I grew up in this age of
there was a thing called grumpy old man syndrome. I
think that actually starts at twenty nine or thirty years
old nowadays because of the stuff that people have gone through,
So people have got their opinions right away, they're ready
to fight, they're ready to disagree, and it's like, calm down,
get this book in your hands and start getting along
with all generations and not just yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, and that's exactly right. I think
most of the time when people talk about disagreement, what
they're thinking about these days is political disagreement.
Speaker 1: Yes, but you know.
Speaker 2: The reality is right, I can go ten years without
ever debating immigration with anybody, right, But I can't go
through life without, you know, talking to my spouse about
how we parent, without talking to my elderly parents about
how they're taking care of themselves, without you know, talking
to people in my workplace about how we do things.
There are some disagreements that are really really important and
actually make a big difference in your life, and so
you've got to be able to navigate those without starting
a bunch of drama and without having the other person
run out.
Speaker 1: Of the room. I think one of my biggest disagreements
right now at one of my essential jobs, because I
love being with people, I really do, and that is
is that the younger generation does not care about what's
going on. And people will argue with me on that.
I'm going listen, I talk with them. They aren't afraid
that the World war could be right around the corner.
They aren't afraid of the economy. All they care about
is where's my smartphone? Where's my earbuds? And it's like, okay,
just don't argue, don't argue, don't argue. How would you
deal and how are you dealing with this?
Speaker 2: Well? You know, I think most people don't like disagreement.
They don't you know, they think of disagreement as you know,
leading to conflict. Right. They don't want to be ostracized
by their peers. And that's you know, when you're a teenager,
there's nothing more important to you than what your friends
think of you. And we as adults, we don't teach
them to disagree, right. We teach them to be polite.
We don't teach them to express their views in a
way that is respectful but also clear and that also
engages the other person conversation. So a lot of what
I'm actually working on right now is creating materials for
high schools to teach kids to disagree better.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, because I deal with a lot
of high schools. Oh my god. And it's not unnecessarily
what I said, it's how I said it. By using
what I call hidden speak. There's a language of all
your own. You can say something and people go what
it used to say? But you know, darn good well
what he just said and or she and it was
meant to be a dagger going into your heart.
Speaker 2: Right, right, right, So you have to figure out how
to communicate your intentions more clearly. Right. If you have
good intentions, you've got to use your words to say, Look,
I'm here to understand you, I'm here to learn about
your perspective. I'd like to know where you're coming from,
what experiences you have had, and so, you know, we
don't want to leave people guessing about what our intentions are.
Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Julia Minsen coming
up next. Hey, thanks for coming back to the conversation.
Let's get back into it with Julia Minson. The book
we're talking about is How to Disagree Better. My question
is is that are we fighting less because we've made
it so easy to ghosting?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know. So it's funny. There's like two problems
that are happening at the same time, and they seem
like the opposite problems, but they're actually the same problem.
Where some people are yelling and screaming all the time
and you see this on social media, Right, people just
just like throw grenades out there, and you know, watch
the world blow up and other people people say, I
want to have nothing to do with this. Right, I'm
turning off social media, I'm turning off the news. I'm
never talking about politics again if anybody brings it up.
I'm talking about the weather. And both of those things
are a problem because what that leaves you with is
that only the loudest, most obnoxious people are part of
the conversation. And part of the reason I wrote this
book is because there are lots of people in the
world who don't want conflict, who don't want drama, but
who have interesting things to say and who have interesting
opinions and thoughts that we would all benefit from. So
how do we make disagreement more constructive so that more
people are in the conversation, not just like the loud people.
Speaker 1: Julia Cameron in the artist way says that anger is
only a symptom. It has become a weapon here. I
mean it's like, how can And that's what I love
about your book, As you're saying, Hey, look, it doesn't
have to be a weapon. Just listen to it. Maybe
it is a symptom.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think anger usually, you know, in conversation, right,
I mean, there's lots of reasons for anger, But in conversation,
anger often comes from frustration. Right. I've been telling you
how it is, and I'm giving you the facts, and
I'm trying to enlighten you, and you won't change your mind,
and so I get frustrated, and eventually that frustration escalates
into anger. And one way to get out of that
dynamic is to stop treating every conversation like an argument. Right.
I don't need you to change your mind necessarily. What
I need to do is perhaps have a good working
relationship with you, or understand where you're coming from, or
just you know, get out of this conversation unscathed. Right. So,
if we give up the idea of telling people that
they're wrong as the only goal of a conversation, then
we're much less likely to end up in that dynamic
where we're frustrated and angry.
Speaker 1: Ten minutes with you is not enough. Where can we
go to find out more about you? Because I know
as I dive into your book, I'm yellow highlighting the
whole damn thing. And it's such a great tool, but
I want to know more about you, and I'm sure
listeners do too.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So my website is Disagreeingbetter dot com and the
book is how to Disagree Better and you can get
it today and where books are sold.
Speaker 1: I love it. Please come back to this show anytime
in the future. This is an everyday thing. This is
not like, oh, we're going to talk about it at
the beginning of spring. We need to be talking about
this more often or am I disagreeing with somebody here?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today? Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Have a wonderful day.