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Every week, 24 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:23.560 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 25 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:27.560 killers in true crime history True Murder with your host, 26 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:30.480 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 27 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:42.680 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 28 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:45.599 program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime 29 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.079 history and the authors that are written about them. On 30 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:53.280 April twentieth, nineteen ninety nine, Eric Harris and Dylan Claybold 31 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.719 left an indelible stamp on the American psyche. Their plan 32 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:01.799 was staggering to blow up their school, surpass Oklahoma City 33 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.480 in horror, and leave a lasting impression on the world. 34 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:10.199 The bombs failed, but the unpreprecedented attack unleashed a new 35 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:15.240 era of violence in schools, branding every future shooting another Columbine. 36 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:17.599 When we think of Columbine, we think of the Trench 37 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:22.840 Code Mafia, Cassie Bernew Mistaken Columbine Martyr, and Patrick Ireland, 38 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:25.719 the boy in the window, the whole world watching his 39 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:29.840 gutsy escape. Now, in a gripping work of journalism, a 40 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:33.319 full decade in the making, comes a story we never 41 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:37.840 knew in this revelatory book, Dave Cullen debunks the myths 42 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:41.039 and produces a profile of teen killers that burrows to 43 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:45.479 the core of psycho pathology. He reveals two radically different killers, 44 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:50.400 Eric Harris, the callously brutal mastermind, and Delan Claybold, the 45 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:54.680 quivering depressive who journaled obsessively about love and attended the 46 00:02:54.680 --> 00:03:01.840 Columbine from three days before opening his opening fire, Columbine 47 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:07.000 unfolds seamlessly in an unforgettable tale of two honor students 48 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.919 with a healthy circle of friends, secretly stockpiling a cache 49 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:14.319 of weapons in the basement. They recorded their vituol on 50 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:20.400 film while manipulating every adult who could have stopped them. 51 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:25.120 Described by Cullen with a sharp investigative eye and psychological acumen. 52 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:33.240 Calling from testimony a pardon, calling from hundreds of interviews, 53 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:36.879 thousands of police files, testimony from world class psychologists brought 54 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:40.120 in by the FBI, and the boys videos and journals, 55 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:44.159 he delivers the first comprehensive account of the tragic Columbine 56 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:50.800 School shooting, a riveting tale of murder, redemption, police cover up, 57 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.599 and a town torn apart. The haunting cautionary tale for 58 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:59.080 our age Columbine with my special guest Dave Collin. Welcome 59 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:01.360 to the program, and thanks you to agree to this interview. 60 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:05.759 Dave Colin, Hi, thanks for having me. Dan, thank you 61 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:10.319 very much. First off, if you could tell us a 62 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.800 little bit about why and how you became involved in 63 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.759 why you decided to write Columbine, your book about this tragedy. 64 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:25.959 Sure, well, it was a very slow evolutionary process. I 65 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:28.680 never really set out to write a book initially. I 66 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:35.920 was a journalist and writer living in Denver, and I 67 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:39.839 was a freelance journalist then and I just happened to 68 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:41.879 turn on the TV just as it was getting started, 69 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.800 as the first local news reports were coming on, and 70 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:49.160 I thought it would probably be nothing severe. There were 71 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:52.120 no reports of injuries, and I figured, you know, I 72 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:55.120 was kind of optimistic. I assumed that nobody was hurt. 73 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:57.639 But I decided to go out there just in case. 74 00:04:57.720 --> 00:04:59.240 And I didn't know where it was. I'd never heard 75 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:03.759 of Columbine out in the far western suburbs, out near 76 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:07.800 the Rockies, and so I got my car and drove 77 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:12.279 in the general direction. And as I was driving them 78 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:15.360 the highway out there, I saw out the window to 79 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:21.160 my south an arc of helicopters circling around like vultures, 80 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:22.959 and it was a terrible I'm in a sign of 81 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.279 like six or eight of them, and I couldn't believe it, 82 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:28.800 and I realized, Wow, that must be it. And that 83 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:32.199 was the first moment where my heart sank and I 84 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:34.600 realized it was much worse than I thought. I had 85 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:38.120 no idea how bad, and I still didn't really think 86 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:40.439 anybody had been killed, but I thought it was something bad, 87 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:43.360 and so I literally just drove toward the helicopters and 88 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:45.920 I drove till I hit a police barricade, and then 89 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:49.120 I got out and ran on foot, and you know, 90 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:51.319 of course, it turned out to be what it was. 91 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:55.040 And I wrote a story for a website web magazine 92 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:58.680 Salon dot com that day, and then they wanted me 93 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:00.279 to keep covering it, so I stayed out up there 94 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:02.000 and worked it every day, and then I worked on 95 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:04.560 a longer piece that took nearly a month, where I 96 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:07.560 reported on the evangelical Christians, and I decided to sort 97 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:11.160 of immerse myself in that world. I enrolled at Bible 98 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:14.959 study at Cassie Burnell's church and various things, and then 99 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:17.319 after the first month, I thought I was done. I 100 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:20.600 remember telling people, I thank goodness, you know, I never 101 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:23.160 want to cover another murder again. And you know, that 102 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:25.000 was a It was a rough experience, and I really 103 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:29.879 thought I was done, but I kept getting drawn back 104 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:34.079 because I felt like we hadn't really understood it and 105 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:36.439 we didn't know why these boys had done it. So 106 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:38.480 I kept coming back and coming back, and I did 107 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:43.199 a long investigative peace and broke some news and just 108 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.120 that that didn't satisfy me. Then I had to eventually 109 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.319 get to the psychologist, and that took a couple of 110 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:51.519 years because the FBI wasn't allowed to talk to people, 111 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:52.959 and it took me a couple of years to get 112 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:57.920 permission to talk to them, sort of hounding them, and gradually, 113 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:01.839 over time I realized that there was an incredible story here, 114 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:05.800 was much bigger than people understood, and that it would 115 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.079 make an interesting book, and that I wanted to devote. 116 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:11.480 I fought a couple of years to it, and I 117 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:13.720 had no idea it would stretch out and take ten 118 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:17.199 years to do. I don't think I have afforded. I 119 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:18.720 don't think I would have done it if I had 120 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:20.399 known going in that it would take ten years. If 121 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:22.920 somebody had said that this would take ten years to do, 122 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:26.000 I would have tried something else. But yes, of course not, 123 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:29.600 it just worked out. Now, Yes, can you take us 124 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:34.360 back to the community where this occurred for those people 125 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:38.560 that don't know Jefferson County here will tell us where 126 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:40.600 this is located in the US, and take us back 127 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.040 and sort of describe the community for those people that 128 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.720 don't know. Yeah, well, it's just outside of Denver. It's 129 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:50.839 you know, in Denver. We refer to it as the Metroplex, 130 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:54.680 and it's on the very edge of suburban sprawl, on 131 00:07:54.800 --> 00:08:00.519 the western edge, and it's about probably forty minutes from downtown. 132 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:06.399 And it's sort of an interesting area that was mostly 133 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:13.600 populated in the seventies, sort of flight from the cities. 134 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:22.120 And until that time when Combine was actually built, Oh no, 135 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:27.120 I'm forgetting in the seventies, I believe, and it was. 136 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:32.440 It was built on a dirt road surrounded by horse ranches, 137 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:35.480 and so it was sort of a very Old West character. 138 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:38.279 And this is when Denver really hadn't reached that far. 139 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:41.799 But suddenly the people were coming. So suddenly all these 140 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:47.320 subdivisions went up in rapid order, and you know, it 141 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:51.879 became quite a large, densely relatively densely populated area, I 142 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:57.039 mean dense suburban, but they never incorporated what you And 143 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:00.120 that's one of the things of understanding this area is 144 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:05.080 is there were a couple different referenda over time about incorporation, 145 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:08.120 but the people didn't want to. The sort of anti 146 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:12.120 government there. Uh so there's no town. It's just out 147 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:14.919 in the in the country. So there's no police department. 148 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.279 They use the fire department from the neighboring county, and 149 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:25.759 there's a school district county wide, and then you know, 150 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:28.519 there's no police force, so they just used the county 151 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:33.000 sheriff's patrols and there's a small investigative unit and so forth. 152 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.320 So that's why those people ended up being having jurisdiction 153 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:41.000 just sort of this weird sort of country suburbani ish 154 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:46.679 area with with no downtown. So in some ways there's 155 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:49.600 a lot of like a lot of other suburbs, but 156 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:52.240 I called it New Combine an old Columbine. There's still 157 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:54.320 a lot of flavor of the people who've been here 158 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:57.759 there for one hundred years or more in their families 159 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:02.039 and sort of very west and then it's got the 160 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:04.879 suburban character with most people who didn't even come from 161 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:07.840 Colorado who you know, from all over the US immigrants, 162 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:11.320 So there's sort of a mix of different kinds of people. 163 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:16.240 It's it's relatively affluent, i'd say upper middle class, barely 164 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:18.240 upper middle to upper middle. 165 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:22.159 Yeah. 166 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.200 So I well, I'll think give you a bit of 167 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:30.039 an eye of an idea nice school, nice uh you know, clean, 168 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:36.519 very low crime wide streets and couldest acts and that 169 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:37.039 sort of thing. 170 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.080 Right now, tell us a little bit about Dylan Claibold's 171 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:45.159 early life growing up and where he was, where he 172 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.360 originated from, and tell us about his parents and just 173 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:51.440 generally how his life really was growing up. 174 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.960 Well, Dylan grew up in the area and his parents 175 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:01.600 were both well they were both art majors in college. 176 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.960 They med at Ohio State University, and they were who 177 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:11.559 they definitely weren't hippies. They were sort of artsy, intellectual, uh, 178 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:23.399 kind of altruistic and uh optimistic people and sort of romantic. 179 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:27.080 I think really the key to understanding them is that 180 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:31.159 they had two boys, and they named them both after 181 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:38.440 romantic poets. Uh. Dylan was named after Dylan Thomas, and 182 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:40.399 so that that gives you a sense of who they were. 183 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:45.360 They were very idealistic, anti gun they didn't never have 184 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:51.720 guns in the house. And Tom actually eventually got a 185 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:54.600 major in uh I believe it was geophysics, and and 186 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:57.320 started in the oil business and did well there, and 187 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:00.919 then they had some rental operating on the side, and 188 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:04.600 that was successful enough that he started managing them full 189 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:07.759 time as his job several years before Columbine. And then 190 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:12.200 his wife Sue, as a very outgoing person, and she 191 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:16.840 worked in the local community college system and worked with 192 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:18.159 some special needs students. 193 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.159 And with Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just 194 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.440 about anywhere. 195 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:27.360 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. 196 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:29.480 Has anyone seen the bride and groom? 197 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:30.320 Maury? 198 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:31.600 Sorry we're here. 199 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:33.720 We were getting lucky in the limo and we lost 200 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:34.200 track of time. 201 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:37.759 No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up 202 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:39.000 quicker than a guess registering. 203 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:42.639 In that case, I pronounce you Lucky Hiks. 204 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:45.919 For free Lucky Landslots dot com. Daily bonuses are waiting. 205 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:48.519 No purchase necessary board. We're prohibited by lock eight team 206 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:51.360 plus terms and conditions applag see website for details. 207 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:56.799 And Dylan and they got a property God it's hard 208 00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:58.639 for to describe to people who don't live there. It's 209 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:03.120 out what's called out has the hog Back, which is 210 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:08.320 like a row of you know, we call them foothills there, 211 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:14.639 but they're higher than any point in the whole Appalachian Range, 212 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:18.039 so they're about the Hogback is maybe five six seven 213 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:23.000 hundred feet high, and like Cleveland's had a property just 214 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:26.279 beyond that, so it's really kind of secluded. There's a 215 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:28.879 path that you go through in what looks like mountains. 216 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:31.639 There's a little pass, and then behind them there's this 217 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:35.240 beautiful valley and people are probably seeing Red Rocks Amphitheater 218 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:39.519 on television, HBO specials or wherever they're you know, lots 219 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:42.440 of major acts do concerts and fill them there because 220 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:45.799 it's just extraordinary beautiful. That's just a few miles from there, 221 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:48.440 and and the valley they live in looks like sort 222 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.639 of a mini Red Rocks and so it's sort of 223 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:56.759 an idyllic place where dealing with sometimes go out with 224 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:00.919 their friends with the Browns and go out, you know, 225 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:05.759 fishing and you know, just doing sort of like HWK 226 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.159 Sawyer come or excuse me, Huck Finn Tom Sawyer sort 227 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:14.000 of things. Out in the in the wood. So it 228 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:16.159 was sort of a it was more of a country 229 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:19.519 area at that time when he was a boy, until 230 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:22.639 the people started coming well, just as he was growing 231 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:28.600 up the suburban area sort of reached out there to 232 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:29.799 almost meet them. 233 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:33.200 What was his character like as as a young boy, 234 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.320 and were there and what were if there were any? 235 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:40.840 Were there any noticeable problems? Uh noticed that school, we'll say, 236 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:43.840 for example, or any run ins with the law at 237 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:46.120 a young age. We save, we saved before high school. 238 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:52.399 No, there were definitely no run ins uh until really 239 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:55.960 the year before Columbine. Uh. He was he did very well, 240 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:00.840 but he was extraordinarily shy. He was put in he 241 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:03.759 was very bright, and he was put into a gifted 242 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:08.399 program I believe in second grade, uh called CHIPS I 243 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:10.799 think the acronym was for but it was a special 244 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:14.000 program for gifted pro kids. It was very very bright, 245 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:19.840 and but he was he was peefully shy with strangers, 246 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:24.159 but then with people he knew, he was really warm 247 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.919 and sort of cheerful. Judy Brown, who was a neighbor 248 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:32.759 at that time, described how, uh you know, she she 249 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:34.840 would take the boys out a lot, you know, doing 250 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:37.080 sort of fun boy stuff. She was sort of the 251 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:40.639 uh uh, tomboyish mom in the neighborhood would take them out, 252 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:43.159 and Judy said that, you know, Dylan would see her 253 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.919 and would come run up and smile and run up 254 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.919 and hurl himself into her lap and hug and it 255 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:53.720 was very affectionate with people that he knew, but really 256 00:15:53.720 --> 00:16:01.240 really standoffish and afraid around new people. And that really 257 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:03.919 wasn't such an issue when he was small because the 258 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.639 gifted program was a really small, selective program, so he 259 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.200 was with the same kids year after year, with you know, 260 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:13.399 occasional kids would be added to the program over time 261 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:16.000 or would move into the area, but for the most part, 262 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.879 he was like a school within a school within a 263 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.840 relatively small grammar school, and so it was a very 264 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:26.120 small group and he felt very comfortable there. But when 265 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:30.919 he went to middle school in sixth grade, that's a 266 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:34.840 much bigger school and sort of several grammar schools fed 267 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:38.480 into that middle school, and he really had trouble fitting in. 268 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:41.159 So not only did the school I think tripled in size, 269 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:44.759 but then they didn't have the gifted program, so he 270 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:47.720 went out into the mainstream and so it was his 271 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:54.480 circle of peers of classmates was you know, many times larger, 272 00:16:55.000 --> 00:17:00.399 and he never really adjusted to that. His parents felt 273 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:04.200 that they knew that he was going to have trouble 274 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:06.599 that he because he was shy, but they thought that 275 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.279 he would get over it, but he never really did. 276 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.119 And then when he went to high school it continued 277 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:15.319 and he remained that way all the way until the end. 278 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.319 And you know, particularly with girls, he was shy and 279 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:24.599 would be afraid to speak around strange girls. And so 280 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:27.319 that was sort of the nagging thing that his parents 281 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.000 worried about, and they figured that he would grow out 282 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:31.799 of it, you know, hopefully when he went to college. 283 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:34.920 I mean they were hoping first of all over high school. 284 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:36.720 Then maybe when he went to college. A lot of 285 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:41.039 people sort of come into their own later on, and 286 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:44.480 they didn't realize it also during high school that he 287 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:48.240 was terribly depressed because he was quiet and morose around 288 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:52.599 other people, but they weren't around him, and he was 289 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:56.400 really close, especially with his father Tom, and so they 290 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:00.079 didn't realize how badly that he was hurting inside. And 291 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.960 we know now how badly he was hurting because he 292 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:05.720 kept a journal for the last two years of his 293 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:09.319 life and he gave the entry, so we know when 294 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:12.839 they were taking place, and the very first entry he 295 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:17.680 mentions suicide. And you know, it's a safe bet that 296 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.720 that wasn't the first time he thought about it, because 297 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:23.079 he's he's he's very open about It's clear from his 298 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.039 writing that he's already thought about this. So no telling 299 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.799 how much further earlier he was contemplating it, We just 300 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:34.240 have no record. But so he's, yeah, he was contemplating 301 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:39.839 suicide for two years through high school and really in 302 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:45.480 a journal talking about how depressing his life was, how miserable, 303 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:50.319 sometimes lashing out at God quite frequently for you know, 304 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:52.880 giving him this horrible life, Why did you do this 305 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:55.480 to me? He sort of presents himself almost as a 306 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.160 job figure a lot of the time in the journal. 307 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.119 So he's really really struggling. And his parents knew that 308 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:05.640 he was struggling, but they didn't They had no idea 309 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:09.880 that it was that bad. And to Cleebold, just a 310 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:14.119 few years ago wrote a really amazing piece for Oprah's 311 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:18.920 old magazine talking about that and saying in that retrospect 312 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.960 and and and seeing reading his journals, she can see that, 313 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:24.680 but she had no idea at the time, and trying 314 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:28.519 to alert other moms really of the danger that if 315 00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:30.400 you see a kid, you see some of these warning 316 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:38.279 signs to get them help. So in retrospect that makes sense. 317 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:41.359 But but but other than that, you know, I think 318 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:43.240 the most outsiders. He looked like a you know, a 319 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:45.680 typical teenage boy who's sulking. 320 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:51.279 A lot right now. Tell us about Eric Harris, his 321 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:54.599 father Wayne and Kathy, and his wife has part of me? 322 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:58.759 His mother Kathy, and if he had any siblings, and 323 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.680 when did the the two of them Dylan and Eric 324 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:04.079 actually first meet. 325 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:07.440 Well, Eric is a polar opposite of Dylan. I mean 326 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.119 he's almost you know, the flip side in a lot 327 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:14.079 of respects. They have some similarities. They are both very bright, 328 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:16.440 and they had some of the same interests that liked 329 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:21.839 video games and enjoyed bowling and some of their activities. 330 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:26.160 As far as their personalities, they were like night and day. 331 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:31.599 And I'll back up a little bit. Dylan or Eric 332 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:35.400 was a military brat, as they refer to themselves. His 333 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:41.519 dad was a an officer in the US Air Force. 334 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.960 He was in for twenty years. He eventually he retired 335 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:48.759 as a a major and he was a test pilot 336 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:55.839 so they moved every few years and now five or 337 00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:01.720 six different UH cities. He liked, Well, the city's towns. 338 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:05.160 They're mostly you know, small army towns in places like 339 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:11.720 I was mis pronounces Ocella, Michigan and sort of northern 340 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:16.880 uh northeast Michigan, uh Plattsburgh, New York. Really you know, 341 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:19.920 small army and air force towns. I shouldn't say armory town's. 342 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:21.759 I was in the herring, so I think of them 343 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.440 as army towns, but it was air force. And so 344 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:29.079 they were moving around a lot. Uh. Eric had one 345 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:32.200 older brother. Both Eric and Dylan each had one brother 346 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:37.880 who was about two years older than them. And you know, 347 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:40.720 they did a lot of Eric did a lot of 348 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:45.240 you know, playing army games with his brother and some 349 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:47.720 other friends when they were kids. And we know this 350 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:52.119 because Eric wrote about it in some of his school papers. 351 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:54.680 UH just sort of describing his childhood in a lot 352 00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:57.720 of different places and and talk about that sort of 353 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:01.160 fantasizing about it being a marine. When he grew up, 354 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:07.799 they met, Eric and Dylan met uh oh and Kathy 355 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:10.440 for the most part worked inside the home. She had 356 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:13.759 some part time UH work, but you know, she was 357 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:19.200 moving every few years as an officer's wife, and so 358 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:21.359 you know, she'd have to be changing jobs every couple 359 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:24.440 of years and took care of the boys for the 360 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:29.519 most part, and and you know, people in the in 361 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:38.240 the Air Force unit. So Eric, Eric's dad, Wayne was 362 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.920 was very strict. He was, you know, a typical military man. 363 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:44.720 And Eric seems like a pretty normal kid as far 364 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:49.359 as we can tell. He was fairly shy as a kid, 365 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:51.640 not not nearly as much as Eric, but he sort 366 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:54.680 of came into his own around junior high. High school, 367 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:57.359 he started coming out of his shell. And Eric and 368 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:04.319 Dylan met in junior high the Harris Is. After Wayne 369 00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:11.119 retired from the Air Force, they relocated to outside of Denver, 370 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.079 to jeff Coo and so Eric Diller went to the 371 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:19.279 same middle school and that's where they met. And nobody 372 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:22.599 actually remembers. There's very conflicting reports of exactly when they met, 373 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:28.400 but it was probably seventh grade and they started hanging 374 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:33.920 around somewhat. They become became closer in high school and 375 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:39.799 kind of a circle of a few different friends. They 376 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:43.319 were really close with Zach Heckler, another kid named Zach 377 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:46.119 Heckler early on, and that was sort of the threesome 378 00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:50.960 did allow things together in the early years in high school, 379 00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:52.920 and there were like four or five or six of 380 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:54.920 them that that tended to hang out a lot. But 381 00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:59.079 they said sort of a tight circle of friends. 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