1 00:00:38,079 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: If you want to support the show and get the 2 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,600 episodes early and ad free, head on over to Freemanbeyond 3 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,399 the Wall dot com forward slash Support. I want to 4 00:00:48,439 --> 00:00:53,079 explain something right now. If you support me through substack 5 00:00:53,679 --> 00:00:57,759 or Patreon, you have access to an RSS feed that 6 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,079 you can plug into any podcas catcher, including Apple, and 7 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:04,519 you'll be able to listen to the episodes through there. 8 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,920 If you support me through Subscribe, star gum Road, or 9 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,480 on my website directly, I will send you a link 10 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,000 where you can download the file and you can listen 11 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,120 to it any way you wish. I really appreciate the 12 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,400 support everyone gives me. It keeps the show going. It 13 00:01:22,439 --> 00:01:25,680 allows me to basically put out an episode every day 14 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,400 now and I'm not going to stop. I'm just going 15 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,359 to accelerate. I think sometimes you see that I'm putting 16 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:37,560 out two even three a day, and yeah, can't do 17 00:01:37,599 --> 00:01:40,599 it without you, So thank you for the support. Head 18 00:01:40,599 --> 00:01:43,239 on over to Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com, Forward 19 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:49,319 slash Support and do it there. Thank you. I want 20 00:01:49,319 --> 00:01:52,159 to welcome everyone back to the Peaking Yana Show for 21 00:01:52,239 --> 00:01:56,439 the first time. My OGC brother Classington. How are you doing. 22 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: I'm doing fantastic. A lot of the times, Uh, when 23 00:02:01,799 --> 00:02:04,599 I'm just hanging out with the uh the o GC 24 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,760 guys in my local chapters, I'm I'm always asked like 25 00:02:07,799 --> 00:02:09,919 if I if I've ever been on too Pete q'es 26 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,719 show before, because that's how a lot of guys and 27 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:18,879 uh finding OGC. You know, I'm I'm almost embarrassed to 28 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,960 say no, but uh, I guess we can rectify that today. 29 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: Well, you pretty much had to write a book. Yeah, 30 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,560 that that helps, so yeah, go ahead. 31 00:02:29,879 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I have a nasty habit of you know, 32 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,759 maybe once every you know, six months to year, I 33 00:02:37,879 --> 00:02:40,759 just crank out like a small book for the OGC 34 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,719 sub stack. And uh, this one, you know, ended up 35 00:02:44,759 --> 00:02:47,919 being a little bit longer than most, with being you know, 36 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,639 thirty thousand words long, takes like three hours to listen to, 37 00:02:53,599 --> 00:02:56,960 uh if narrated, you know, two hours to read. It's 38 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,719 a it's kind of a behemoth, and I think it's 39 00:02:59,719 --> 00:03:05,639 something of the greatest hits of maybe six or seven 40 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:12,439 decent books on early colonial history and Pennsylvanian history in particular. 41 00:03:13,199 --> 00:03:18,400 And I don't know, I started out just looking around 42 00:03:18,599 --> 00:03:25,639 my current city, Pittsburgh for We're the historical markers, and 43 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,120 when I started noticing, Hey, this island here is named 44 00:03:29,159 --> 00:03:32,680 after so and so, that brand is named after what's 45 00:03:32,719 --> 00:03:37,639 his name, and no one actually knows about it. People 46 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,439 don't really have a good idea of what actually happened 47 00:03:42,719 --> 00:03:47,520 in the Whiskey Rebellion, what happened in the early Confederation 48 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,840 and early Constitutional period. Most people kind of line, ee, 49 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:57,199 the first presidency of George Washington, but no one can 50 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,159 actually tell you exactly what he did or what his 51 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:07,319 administration was like. And people, you know, they don't, particularly 52 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,840 in Pennsylvania, they don't really have a good grasp of 53 00:04:09,879 --> 00:04:13,000 what their own state history was like. And so I 54 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,439 ended up writing over two weekends this sort of treatise 55 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:25,639 on you know, early Pennsylvania, colonial and Republican American history, 56 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:32,600 history of I guess, alcohol production in the early American Republic. 57 00:04:34,079 --> 00:04:38,319 I wrote a sort of polemic sort of strong manning 58 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,279 the pro whiskey tax and anti whiskey tax positions by 59 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:49,399 laying out the necessity of having a stable currency from 60 00:04:49,439 --> 00:04:56,079 the perspective of of the federal administration, but also the 61 00:04:56,199 --> 00:05:01,120 justification for resisting the whiskey exercise tax. Going into the 62 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:06,879 fine numbers, of how profitable, how the profits of the 63 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,560 whiskey trade was essentially the only lifeline that the Appalachian 64 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:16,920 economy had to hard currency and they couldn't survive without it. 65 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,120 And I ended up just going on this sort of long, 66 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:28,000 I guess, interlaced narrative, weaving in different characters from the 67 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:33,680 pro and anti whiskey tax sides, and I've had a 68 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:39,399 very good reception from it. Just writing a book. It's 69 00:05:39,439 --> 00:05:45,240 certainly as it's a feather in OGC's cap that they 70 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:52,600 they will both publish your small books. And I think 71 00:05:52,639 --> 00:05:59,560 our OGC audience is how would you say, we're sophisticated 72 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,680 and to have a good reception for that kind of thing. 73 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:08,199 So I'm all around blessed to have have OGC platform. 74 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: Me well, considering how many books we're apt to reading. 75 00:06:15,079 --> 00:06:18,160 I mean, this was really more of a a novella 76 00:06:18,319 --> 00:06:20,680 kind of thing, a you know, more of a kind 77 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,920 of book let, a classic kind of booklet. And you know, 78 00:06:23,959 --> 00:06:26,480 it interests me because I have a lot of family 79 00:06:26,519 --> 00:06:29,800 who are who still live in Western Pennsylvania and are 80 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:34,160 buried in Western Pennsylvania. So the history there is, you know, 81 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,279 of great interest to me. So all right, let's just 82 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,279 jump right in. This is a theme that we've heard 83 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:47,160 before about. I think libertarians have a tendency to talk 84 00:06:47,199 --> 00:06:51,639 about the Whiskey Rebellion a lot as a as an 85 00:06:51,639 --> 00:06:54,879 example of state over reach right from the beginning, or 86 00:06:54,920 --> 00:07:01,199 even even like a like oligarchy right from the beginning, 87 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,240 or a corporateocracy right from the beginning. So you know, 88 00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:09,240 when it comes to taxes and state overreach, you know, 89 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:10,959 how does that play out in everyday life. 90 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,639 Speaker 2: Well, part of the reason why I picked this particular 91 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:21,519 subject was Patrick Newman's book Cronyism, Liberty Versus Power in America, 92 00:07:22,199 --> 00:07:26,519 published by the Mesa's Institute, and I had something of 93 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:31,519 a I don't know, something of a visceral reaction against it. Well, 94 00:07:31,959 --> 00:07:34,680 I had a reaction against it because in a lot 95 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,199 of ways, sort of libertarians underplay the amount of violence 96 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,839 that actually went on in the back country and underscore 97 00:07:42,879 --> 00:07:49,639 the necessity of actually, you know, having having a federal 98 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,199 income to actually, you know, payoff war debts. I mean, 99 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,160 I do go into the numbers where seventy percent of 100 00:07:58,199 --> 00:08:01,240 the federal budget was just paying off interest on the 101 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,920 war that's accrued from the American Revolution, and twenty percent 102 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:11,079 was you know, fighting Indian wars, and then five percent 103 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:16,120 was just betteral salaries and paying off barbary pirate ransoms. 104 00:08:16,519 --> 00:08:19,800 But I also I do have a sort of soft 105 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:25,000 spot for the resistors of the taxes because you know, 106 00:08:25,199 --> 00:08:28,279 as I go into my article, tax collectors on the 107 00:08:28,279 --> 00:08:32,799 frontier are particularly corrupt and particularly hated. In America has 108 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:40,639 a long history of regulation of communities, self regulating corrupt 109 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:49,360 tax collectors and land agents and vigilanteism. But a lot 110 00:08:49,399 --> 00:08:55,120 of people of the particular back country persuasion have a 111 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,559 very they don't like tax collectors. And there was a 112 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,759 certain out of truth to the fact that yes, there 113 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:08,759 was a very plutocratic banking elite being established in early America, 114 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:12,000 and as I kind of lay out, there was a 115 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,120 necessity to having both income from taxes. But at the 116 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,600 same time I name a few of the different plutocratic institutions, 117 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,600 one being the Essex Junto. But if there are quite 118 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,440 a few of them across New England and the Middle colonies, 119 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,480 and they did actually fleece the fleece the little guy 120 00:09:32,879 --> 00:09:36,000 for all he was worth to pay off their essentially 121 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,960 their you know, their bonds that they paid for. So 122 00:09:42,159 --> 00:09:45,080 I want to add a little bit of nuance and 123 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,200 a less ideological I guess have a little bit of 124 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,320 a less ideological take on what what actually happened in 125 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:58,240 the early administration. So I'm not necessarily pro taxation anti 126 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,840 taxation in one way or the other. I just want 127 00:10:01,919 --> 00:10:06,240 to present the narrative from the both the federalists and 128 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,679 and anti federalist sides, respectively, in a very humanizing way. 129 00:10:12,799 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: Is that how you're able to because you mentioned the 130 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,279 reference the American revolutions, tax disputes and everything. Is that 131 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,759 where you draw draw your inspiration from? 132 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 2: Well, for for the Old Glory Club, I actually toured 133 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:34,840 Valley Forge last year with the Delaware Crossing Society, and 134 00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:40,120 in going to that event, I did a substantial amount 135 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,480 of research on you know, why did people starve at 136 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:51,080 Valley Forge? You know this place Pennsylvania. As I talked 137 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,039 about in my article, it was like a linen like 138 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,799 the linen and flax manufacturing colony. You know, they made 139 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,240 clothes and they were kind of the The county was 140 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,039 also something of a bread basket. And how come these 141 00:11:07,039 --> 00:11:12,120 soldiers starved at Valley Forge? A lot of it was Yeah, 142 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,159 if you really want to get into it, it is graft. 143 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,639 And there were contractors that did fleece Congress for all 144 00:11:18,639 --> 00:11:22,200 that they were worth. But at the same time, the 145 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,679 continental dollars were worthless. And why were they worthless? I 146 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:32,120 mean they weren't backed by anything. America kind of started 147 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,440 out as this this sort of startup company and you know, 148 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,799 they took they didn't have any creditors. They just printed 149 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,720 money and no one accepted the money. And you know, 150 00:11:42,919 --> 00:11:45,879 there weren't a taxes. So this is this is a problem. 151 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,120 This is a genuine problem. Guys in the field can't 152 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,440 you know, they can't buy shoes. And as I lay 153 00:11:54,480 --> 00:12:00,559 out later on, like later in my article, you know, 154 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,480 the one institution that was actually set up by these 155 00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:09,440 putocrats to actually you know, finance the revolution, the first 156 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:15,840 National Bank or the first National the first Bank of 157 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,960 North America. I forget it's something like that, but it's 158 00:12:21,759 --> 00:12:26,919 essentially this shipping magnate's you know, personal bank backed by 159 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,080 you know, hey, he promises to pay out gold if 160 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,440 you if you if you want to sell your stock 161 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:40,720 in the bank. But you had these if America was 162 00:12:40,759 --> 00:12:45,440 something of a startup company, and the early investors wanted 163 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,399 their pound of flesh out of it, and they were 164 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,519 essentially the only people that you know, kept Congress afloat 165 00:12:53,879 --> 00:12:57,600 for all that was worth. And Robert Morris, you know, 166 00:12:57,639 --> 00:13:02,639 this shipping magnate, he personally, you know, anted up and 167 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,919 paid for the supplies for the final siege at Yorktown. 168 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:12,559 And after Yorktown, you know, Washington's army was basically they 169 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,000 put New York City under siege, like besieging the last 170 00:13:16,039 --> 00:13:19,720 remaining British army. Look it in New York City and 171 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:26,000 no Congress. They couldn't pay their soldiers, and the odds 172 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:28,320 were that they weren't going to pay any of the 173 00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:33,480 veteran officers pensions that they were promised. So now the 174 00:13:33,519 --> 00:13:36,320 officers were gonna they were gonna mutiny, and they might 175 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:42,519 have coued the second they we coued the Confederation Congress. 176 00:13:43,759 --> 00:13:47,559 And it's it's a very dire situation that the American 177 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,879 Republic was in, not having not being able to pay 178 00:13:51,919 --> 00:13:56,279 their own soldiers and their should soldiers. You know that 179 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,200 they they actually did, like someone like Washington was able to, 180 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,080 you know, appeal to his officer's sense of duty and 181 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,759 posterity to talk them down from mutiny. But that didn't 182 00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:11,559 stop you know, a few garrisons of Pennsylvanian soldiers from 183 00:14:12,279 --> 00:14:19,440 mutinying and forcing Congress to evacuate Philadelphia. So paying your 184 00:14:19,559 --> 00:14:24,240 army and paying your debts is a very valid concern, 185 00:14:24,799 --> 00:14:29,559 especially for the early Republic. So I can't be totally 186 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:34,000 anti tax after witnessing and hearing about, and reading about 187 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:40,039 Valley Forge and reading Washington's very personal Newberg address where 188 00:14:40,039 --> 00:14:45,159 he talks his army from out of mutinying. So it's 189 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:48,919 a tough thing to just come at, you know, tax 190 00:14:49,679 --> 00:14:54,399 tax collectors evil as a as an ideological position, although 191 00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:57,840 I do end up going into the regulators and and 192 00:14:57,919 --> 00:15:02,000 how they fought back back against cor like more corrupt 193 00:15:02,799 --> 00:15:04,360 tax cutch and practices. 194 00:15:06,559 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: Well, centralization is you know something you talk about in 195 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,440 the article when when you look at like the articles 196 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,159 of Confederation and you compare it to the Constitution, what 197 00:15:18,279 --> 00:15:20,960 would what would you say would have been the better 198 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,360 the better way of going about the state going forward 199 00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:30,759 at that point or the or the confederation or the 200 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:31,639 state union. 201 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,279 Speaker 2: Well, frankly, I think this the confederation just was not 202 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:42,120 going to work. And I'm personally a huge fan of 203 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,720 you know, James Madison's political career in his his writings 204 00:15:46,759 --> 00:15:51,039 in the Federalist papers, and I did think that he Madison, 205 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:56,919 you know, as sort of the Constitutional Conventions organizer and 206 00:15:57,559 --> 00:16:04,080 you know, early federal later you know, Democratic Republican. I 207 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,679 think he meted out just about the correct middle ground 208 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:16,000 for how America should have approached centralization. I do get 209 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:26,320 into nullification and how localized communities could nullify state or 210 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,759 national law like this has had very strong precedents in 211 00:16:31,879 --> 00:16:37,679 American history and even in colonial history, which I which 212 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,919 I do get into. 213 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: Well, the you mentioned state and federal nullification, and it 214 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,399 seems like federal nullification was given to us in the Constitution, 215 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,039 but nullification on the state level would would have to 216 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:59,279 be written into the state constitution or you're basically doing 217 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,200 it where it's more of a what could turn out 218 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,400 to be termed as a revolt if it's not if 219 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,119 it's not written in you know, the I can't remember 220 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,559 the the Virginia resolution and the Kentucky resolution, those were 221 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:22,680 those were national nullification discussions and issues. But as far 222 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:24,799 as as far as I know, when it comes to 223 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,039 state nullification, nullifying a location, nullifying in your own state, 224 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,720 if that's not written into your state constitution, which I 225 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,960 don't think it's written into any of the fifty state constitutions. 226 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,319 Then that would that could be something that would be 227 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,000 looked upon as extra extra judicial. 228 00:17:43,519 --> 00:17:47,799 Speaker 2: Yes, like when I when I talk about regulators and 229 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:51,960 communities self regulating, a lot of the time these are 230 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:58,240 just county level acts of nullification where this is not 231 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:03,839 something in a particular state constitution. It's more of a 232 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,960 sort of Appalachian backcountry cultural staple that was somewhat born 233 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:14,039 out of necessity. But in terms of actually organizing anything 234 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:21,279 beyond the county level an even regional level, the regulators 235 00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:25,160 were very careful in how they worded their speeches at 236 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,920 their conferences. If you're going to nullify a law, you 237 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:30,960 know what you do is you get all of the 238 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:36,400 most prestigious guys and you know affluent you know, the 239 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:42,119 most affluent citizens and prestigious politicians together in a conference 240 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,599 and you work out exactly what you're going to propose. 241 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:55,079 And reading some of the transcripts from these regulator conferences, 242 00:18:55,559 --> 00:18:59,279 they were very very careful as to not be seditious 243 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:06,200 at least be as as as implies little sedition as possible, 244 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:13,559 because people who people would get, you know, their territory removed, 245 00:19:13,559 --> 00:19:17,119 they would get their property seized, and they would have 246 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:23,400 been hanged as traders if they were seditious. And the 247 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,759 early Republic, you know, we didn't really have like a 248 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,759 you know, as I talk towards the later end of 249 00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:34,079 my article, there really wasn't much of a consensus as 250 00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:38,200 to what was treason against the federal government in the 251 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,160 early Republic, and they really kind of kind of shrugged 252 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,079 off defining it because it was it was such a 253 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:52,920 difficult thing to different thing, difficult thing to actually define, 254 00:19:53,079 --> 00:20:00,680 I guess, but perhaps maybe I should just talk about how, yes, 255 00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:06,720 these early vigil anti posses carved out their own little 256 00:20:07,799 --> 00:20:13,160 their own little statelets that nullified national law. One of 257 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,359 the more esoteric things that came across was the fact 258 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,960 that throughout the American back country, they're about, depending on 259 00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:25,200 how you count them, somewhere between a dozen and maybe 260 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:30,759 twenty independent states that were never recognized as full states, 261 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:36,799 but kind of independent, independently operated by themselves outside of 262 00:20:36,839 --> 00:20:40,359 the federal government and even outside of the Confederation government. 263 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,960 A lot of them were squatters who refused to accept 264 00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:52,960 speculator claims to land ownership and just declared themselves an 265 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:58,160 independent association or even applied for statehood, but we only 266 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:04,680 ended up with thirteen states. I guess Vermont, Tennessee, and 267 00:21:04,799 --> 00:21:09,240 Kentucky eventually became their own independent states anyways, so it's 268 00:21:09,279 --> 00:21:10,640 not something of a moot point. 269 00:21:13,079 --> 00:21:14,319 Speaker 1: But in the. 270 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 2: Late Colonial era and early Republican period, the Apple Achian 271 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,960 Mountains were something of a dividing line between what were 272 00:21:27,759 --> 00:21:32,440 royal colonies in what was kind of Indian land and 273 00:21:32,519 --> 00:21:37,319 kind of settler territory. It's somewhat murky. After the French 274 00:21:37,319 --> 00:21:42,079 and Indian War, there's a proclamation line of seventeen sixty 275 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:47,880 three where essentially settlers were forbidden from crossing the Apple 276 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:56,599 like Appalachians and selling into Indian territory. However, settler, you know, settlers, 277 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,880 free land is free land, and the settled it. And 278 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:09,160 a posse of a couple of thousand regulators from North 279 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:16,440 Carolina they launched an unsuccessful vigilante revolt against the corrupt 280 00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:26,039 governor of North Carolina and the North Carolina tax collectors. 281 00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:30,200 You know, they they'd take the taxes of backcountry farmers 282 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,759 and they just pocket it and then say that the 283 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:40,039 farmers they didn't pay their taxes or land agents would collect, 284 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,440 you know, collect money from farmers to purchase land, but 285 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,079 they'll never actually file it. And this one, uh, this 286 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,000 one man named this one surveyor named herman husband came 287 00:22:51,039 --> 00:22:55,200 across you know, two hundred instances of one single tax collector, 288 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:03,240 you know, taking phony taxes off of farm and hope 289 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,240 two thousand militiamen essentially tried to fight off the corrupt 290 00:23:09,279 --> 00:23:13,759 governor and they lost their revolt, and in losing they 291 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,799 fled to Marday, Tennessee, where they created the Wataga Association 292 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:24,119 and had their own independent republic. So when the state government, 293 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,319 when the colonial governments refused to acknowledge that there was 294 00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:37,000 systemic and widespread corruption, they tried to self regulate. They 295 00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:40,799 burned down the house of a very nasty tax collector. 296 00:23:41,559 --> 00:23:44,000 And when they lost, they just created their own country, 297 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:50,400 completely independent of the colony of North Carolina. And you 298 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,680 look up the state of Franklin, but they tried to 299 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,480 create their own state afterwards too. Or the state of 300 00:23:57,559 --> 00:24:02,400 Vermont was basically a bunch of squatters who organized the 301 00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:06,559 under the Green Mountain Men and uh, they created their 302 00:24:06,599 --> 00:24:11,720 own independent little republic. Like Daniel Boone is very famous, 303 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,799 but he tried to he created He tried to create 304 00:24:14,799 --> 00:24:22,119 the Transylvanian Colony, which you know, very wealthy speculators bought 305 00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:26,039 like a large chunk of land off the Cherokee and 306 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,240 they tried to create their own little state, but didn't 307 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,680 didn't work out too well. Let's see, there was also 308 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:40,359 like the Pine Tree the pine Tree Boys in northeastern Pennsylvania. 309 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,160 They declared themselves or they tried to declare themselves their 310 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,759 own independent republic. Didn't go out to didn't go too 311 00:24:46,839 --> 00:24:51,359 well during the Revolution. But you know, sometimes, you know, 312 00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:53,680 when you're just in the wilderness, you can just do 313 00:24:53,759 --> 00:24:58,079 things and you can just kind of you know, string 314 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:05,599 up corrupt tax collectors or declare yourself independent. But yeah, 315 00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:09,720 when it comes to actual sedition, like the regulators for 316 00:25:09,799 --> 00:25:14,480 a Cha's Rebellion, like I said earlier in the Essex Juneto, 317 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:21,519 they did they tried to create a very nasty system 318 00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:26,720 where the accrued state debt for that, you know, Massachusetts 319 00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:34,359 accrued during the American Revolution was essentially contracted out to 320 00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:41,920 the public speculation market where very wealthy merchants could essentially buy, 321 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,480 like buy chunks of the Massachusetts state debt and created 322 00:25:45,519 --> 00:25:48,440 a sort of speculative bubble because you know, there were 323 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,799 interest payments to pay off the debt, and you know, 324 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:56,319 certain percent of return on income was very good. But 325 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,319 to pay for the interest on these debts, let's say 326 00:25:59,319 --> 00:26:05,440 of Massachuset, it's you know, increased property taxes, increased poll taxes. 327 00:26:05,799 --> 00:26:11,200 In the early Republic, there are tariffs between the individual states, 328 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,519 so like if you wanted to do business from Massachusetts 329 00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:21,559 to Connecticut, you'd have to pay a tariff. And this 330 00:26:21,559 --> 00:26:25,279 this was just it was nasty, it was regressive. A 331 00:26:25,319 --> 00:26:28,960 lot of veterans went into debt fighting the American Revolution, 332 00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:34,759 and they weren't being paid their pensions. Uh so Western 333 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,920 so farmers in western Massachusetts, you know, they saw the 334 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:47,079 corruption and seditiously seized an armory and burned down locations 335 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:52,119 that had the records of of you know, these farmers debts. 336 00:26:54,240 --> 00:27:02,839 So the backcountry was wild nullification. It it could happen 337 00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:06,200 at a very local level, assuming no one notices. But 338 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:14,599 even back then, sedition was pretty quickly stamped out. And 339 00:27:14,759 --> 00:27:18,720 you know, Kentucky was a particularly you know, wild and 340 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:25,839 lawless territory, especially in the beginning. So it's it's it's 341 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,799 complicated in terms of precedents. 342 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,079 Speaker 1: Well, why don't we talk about what, uh, what led 343 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,039 up to the Whiskey rebellion itself. Give us a little 344 00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:41,119 background on that, and you know what you wrote about 345 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:41,720 in your article. 346 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 2: So I wanted to give something of a history of 347 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,319 you know, a history of colonial Pennsylvania, which is something 348 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:56,039 that it's it's sort of a niche local topic, but 349 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,519 I wanted to explain how odious these tax is were. 350 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: So the. 351 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:11,279 Speaker 2: So the national debt, right, it was funded by first 352 00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:14,480 by a tariff. It was essentially like a five percent 353 00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:19,960 tariff on all imported goods, which it wasn't too much, 354 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,599 but we weren't really importing much anyways, because immediately after 355 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,799 the American Revolution, we didn't exactly have any trade treaties 356 00:28:28,839 --> 00:28:32,279 with any other countries. We were locked out of the 357 00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:36,960 British economy because they were so heavily protectionist. We didn't 358 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:42,799 have any treaties with France or Spain, so we couldn't 359 00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:49,799 actually ship any goods out out through New Orleans. All 360 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,440 the entire economy was being rejiggered to be its own, 361 00:28:56,279 --> 00:29:04,880 its own collective market. But Pennsylvania, the way that it 362 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:10,519 was settled was that I use a source from on 363 00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:15,599 the Frontier with Colonel Anti's that basically describes how Pennsylvania 364 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,599 was settled. Where you had, you know, a small sort 365 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:26,720 of Quaker elite established in the seed of Philadelphia and 366 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:33,119 in the immediate suburbs outside of Philadelphia. You had essentially 367 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:38,319 these large estates owned by Quakers, but you also had 368 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:44,119 large estates owned by Dutch traders who brought over German 369 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,759 like starving Germans who they sold into indentured servitude. And 370 00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:53,400 then outside of the Dutch and German ring you have 371 00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:58,279 the Scots Irish who have a long history, have a 372 00:29:58,319 --> 00:30:01,240 long and fun history. If you had actually care to 373 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:08,799 read about colonial Appalachia. The one of the problems on 374 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,920 the frontier is that you have to organize things in 375 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,920 a very ad hoc fashion because there isn't exactly any 376 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:22,319 There aren't any roads, there aren't any there's no government infrastructure, 377 00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:25,599 there aren't any banks. You know, very little hard currency 378 00:30:25,599 --> 00:30:31,279 comes out to the back country. But what you do 379 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:39,119 have are a very clannish people who fought off bands 380 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:44,480 of Indians who some of them were Christianized, and a 381 00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:48,039 lot of them were kind of just roaming bands of hunters, 382 00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:53,680 like one of the big Indian tribes, of course is 383 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,039 the Iroquois Confederacy, but a lot of them were more 384 00:30:58,319 --> 00:31:02,240 permanently stationed in a state New York, while they had 385 00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:11,359 sort of these roving bands of Mingo Iroquois who you 386 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,079 might sign a trade or you might sign a property 387 00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:18,880 agreement agreeing to buy a certain amount of acres off 388 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,839 of one Indian band, but the other won't actually accept it, 389 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,119 and there will be all sorts of Indian wars on 390 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,640 the frontier. And in response to these Indian raids, what 391 00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:38,839 these sort of Scots Irish communities did was they formed 392 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,599 local militia where every man of fighting age from eighteen 393 00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:47,160 to forty six had to go to these either like 394 00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:54,759 monthly or quarterly militia musters, where you'd go out learn 395 00:31:54,839 --> 00:31:57,680 how to how to conduct drills in march in line, 396 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,519 you practice shoot and then afterwards you know, you have 397 00:32:03,559 --> 00:32:08,119 a nice barbecue with your neighbors. And this created a 398 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:14,200 very strong sense of camaraderie and organic social fabric. You 399 00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:19,039 train to fend off and fend off Indians and defend 400 00:32:19,079 --> 00:32:22,599 your homes with your neighbors, and everyone kind of knows 401 00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:30,519 each other and inevitably they form sort of social network associations, 402 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,680 and in the very far west of Pennsylvania, on the 403 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,920 on the west of the Appalachian Frontier around Pittsburgh, there 404 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:50,480 were five counties, the biggest being Washington County and then Allegheny, Westmoreland, Fayette, 405 00:32:50,519 --> 00:32:58,160 and Bedford. And what happened was the only way that 406 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:08,200 these people so land speculation, right, So the frontier of 407 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:13,240 Pennsylvania was sort of de facto owned by the Penn 408 00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:17,160 family who had their original charter now the pens In 409 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:22,000 order to actually make money, they sold land to other 410 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,920 large corporations of land speculators who they'd buy like ten 411 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,599 thousand acres off of the Penn family for five cents 412 00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:36,279 an acre, and then they'd parcel out the chunks of 413 00:33:36,359 --> 00:33:41,680 land at at a profit. Or even better, they loan 414 00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:47,519 money to farmers like the poor people that will ship 415 00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:54,640 them out west to sell the land. But they'll give 416 00:33:54,759 --> 00:34:00,400 these farmers loans to settle their speculated territory eight to 417 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:05,119 ten percent interest rates, which is pretty which is pretty good. 418 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,079 But the problem is that in order to pay off 419 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:13,039 these loans, you have to have hard currency to pay 420 00:34:13,039 --> 00:34:16,480 off them. So how do you actually make money on 421 00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:23,000 the frontier. So the one product that was actually very 422 00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:29,400 easily grown. On the frontier were grains, so corn, barley, 423 00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:39,519 and rye, and you could easily distill. I think the 424 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,360 figure was something like one two hundred pounds of you know, 425 00:34:44,519 --> 00:34:50,400 grains into one hundred and sixty fluid pounds pounds of 426 00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:55,719 you know, of whiskey. And if you could get in 427 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,079 on the frontier, you know, a gallon of whiskey costs 428 00:34:59,079 --> 00:35:02,320 like between a quarter and thirty five cents. But if 429 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,400 you could get it to if you could get Philadelphia, 430 00:35:06,559 --> 00:35:09,199 you could sell it for about a dollar, and if 431 00:35:09,199 --> 00:35:12,360 you could ship it down to New Orleans, you could 432 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,840 sell it for you know, a little bit over a dollar. 433 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:22,320 And it costs almost nothing to float whiskey down the 434 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:29,280 Ohio and Mississippi rivers to New Orleans. That that costs nothing. 435 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,599 But we didn't actually have a trade treaty with Spain 436 00:35:32,679 --> 00:35:35,480 ironed out yet, so we couldn't actually sell anything there. 437 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,360 And it costs a whole lot of money to ship 438 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,400 whiskey three hundred miles and over a mountain range from 439 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,679 Pittsburgh to Philly. So you know, the profit margins are 440 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,639 very thin, but it is you know, it is a 441 00:35:52,679 --> 00:36:00,400 way of actually making money However, that the tear riffs 442 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,400 that the Washington administration first came up with to pay 443 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:11,000 off the national debt, this was not sufficient to actually know, 444 00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:14,360 there was still a large gap between what the federal 445 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,760 budget was and how much they needed to pay. Hamilton 446 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,519 proposed a property tax, you know, a flat tax per 447 00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:27,320 acre and per house and per slave. But everybody hated this, 448 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,400 so he suggested something a little bit more targeting a 449 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:40,679 luxury good whiskey, which at the time, you know, people 450 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,280 drank the equivalent of, or people took consumed like the 451 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,199 equivalent of like three or four shots of alcohol per day. 452 00:36:49,519 --> 00:36:53,079 You know John Adams, you know, every morning he'd drink 453 00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:57,960 a tankard of hard cider like Tidewater Virginians. Every night 454 00:36:58,039 --> 00:37:02,519 they'd have, you know, a bowl of punch. And this 455 00:37:02,679 --> 00:37:07,280 is partly out of necessity because we didn't they didn't 456 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,159 have sanitary water, and you know, a little bit of 457 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:18,679 whiskey in your drink, uh sterilizes it. But people still 458 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:25,159 drank in absurd excess. And it was it was this 459 00:37:25,679 --> 00:37:31,480 excess that you know, concerned physicians who are a little 460 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:40,360 bit more genteel and urbanite who backed certain tax on whiskey. Uh, 461 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,079 it would in theory, it would raise I think the 462 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,000 the the breakdown of the federal budget was something like 463 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,000 we had expenditure and expenditure of about five million dollars 464 00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:58,960 per year in the Washington administration, and we spent about 465 00:37:59,519 --> 00:38:01,159 and we had a budget of about three and a 466 00:38:01,199 --> 00:38:06,119 half million per tariffs and the whiskey excise tax which 467 00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:11,639 Hamilton proposed, Alexander Hamilton proposed, was calculated to bring in 468 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,960 about eight hundred thousand dollars a year. So it does 469 00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:18,320 a good bit to close the gap in the in 470 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:25,599 the federal deficit. It doesn't fully doesn't fully close the gap, 471 00:38:25,639 --> 00:38:28,280 but it does a good bit to actually close it. 472 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:36,000 So Hamilton's whiskey tax is a nine cent per gallon 473 00:38:36,119 --> 00:38:43,199 tax on all distilled liquors. We used to have before 474 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,320 the American Revolution, a thriving rum industry where we had 475 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:53,079 rum distillers in New England. But after the Revolution, we 476 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,639 no longer had access to Jamaican sugar plantations, so we 477 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,719 had to pivot to different So consumers had to pivot 478 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:09,280 to a different, different source of alcohol, and that's where 479 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:16,000 whiskey came in. And what Hamilton did was he essentially 480 00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:23,360 made whisky unprofitable for pens West Pennsylvanian farmers. And worse yet, 481 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,320 if you didn't pay the whiskey tax, he'd be fined 482 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,239 twenty dollars and you'd have to actually pay it, you know, 483 00:39:30,679 --> 00:39:36,519 you'd have to be served your serve the fine in Philadelphia, 484 00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:39,519 which you know, three hundred miles in a mountain range 485 00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:43,400 away from Pittsburgh, and most people only made like between 486 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,440 twenty and one hundred bucks a year in hard currency. 487 00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:51,079 So it's you have to pay your entire life, saving 488 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:58,960 your entire year's salary upfront and hard currency for not 489 00:39:59,079 --> 00:40:05,960 being able to have a profitable whiskey stillery. So Hamilton's 490 00:40:06,679 --> 00:40:11,440 whiskey tax is it just wasn't going to work in 491 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,159 the back country, and the back country didn't really support 492 00:40:16,559 --> 00:40:19,480 the national government the creation of a national government anyways. 493 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:26,480 So what happened was the five counties of Western Pennsylvania 494 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:32,280 developed various conferences where at first, we know, put together 495 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,639 all of our grievances and sent them to Philadelphia. But 496 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:43,480 when no one actually did anything about the tax. Instead, 497 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:52,320 what happened were spontaneous sort of militias developed in each 498 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:57,000 of the counties to resist paying the excise tax. So 499 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,800 it was sort of like a county level, like per 500 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,679 county level, a nullification of the tax. We just weren't 501 00:41:05,679 --> 00:41:09,800 going to pay it. And you know this, this strategy 502 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,840 was adopted throughout at Palacha, Kentucky they didn't pay their 503 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,800 whiskey tax. West Pennsylvania, we didn't pay our whiskey tax. 504 00:41:18,119 --> 00:41:21,960 North Carolina, or like Tennessee, they didn't pay their whiskey tax. 505 00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:27,960 But Pennsylvania was the only West Pennsylvania was the only 506 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,199 region that actually erupted into armed violence against the federal government. 507 00:41:33,159 --> 00:41:39,000 And that's that's why it gets you know why it 508 00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:42,760 gets a little bit more of the limelight. So that 509 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:47,760 that that's that's why I ended up writing this in 510 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,760 a very long winded kind of way. That's that's why 511 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:56,320 these these farmers resisted dak size tax. It was it 512 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:02,760 completely invalidated there their entire local economies business model, so 513 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:03,800 of course they fought it. 514 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,119 Speaker 1: Well, I guess one of the things that we could 515 00:42:10,159 --> 00:42:16,400 look at is how that would be used today, because 516 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,800 you know, the when we talk about the old Glory Club, 517 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,599 you know, we we talk a lot about what we 518 00:42:23,679 --> 00:42:27,159 have is we have people who are gathering in you know, 519 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:34,039 creating groups in certain areas, and how do we make 520 00:42:34,079 --> 00:42:37,719 that actionable today? Because I think that's what you know. 521 00:42:38,039 --> 00:42:39,840 We can talk about history all we want, and I 522 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,280 love to talk about history, obviously, anyone who listens to 523 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,960 my podcast knows I love to talk about history. But 524 00:42:45,559 --> 00:42:48,400 I also want to apply what's been learned in the 525 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,760 past to today. You know, I can think of one 526 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,000 city on the East Coast where I'm not going to 527 00:42:56,039 --> 00:42:58,199 say where it is, but a bunch of our people 528 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:04,639 have my rate it too. And how do how do 529 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,559 we begin to have that same kind of spirit, especially 530 00:43:09,559 --> 00:43:13,199 when I mean we know that the federal government, as 531 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,880 big as it is, it doesn't have the manpower or 532 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,920 even the will at this point to go to target 533 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,639 a certain areas that have decided, well, we're not just 534 00:43:26,679 --> 00:43:28,119 not going to do it that way anymore. 535 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:34,559 Speaker 2: So I guess the more app like, the more applicable 536 00:43:34,599 --> 00:43:38,519 angle that you could take from my article is the 537 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:44,360 OGC Pittsburgh chapter named ourselves the Mingo Creek Society after 538 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:50,159 the sort of working man's resistance against the whiskey tax. 539 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,599 And in my article I highlight two different groups that 540 00:43:55,159 --> 00:44:02,800 organized against the whiskey tax and emulating their model. Is 541 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:10,920 I mean, it's it's somewhat anachronistic, but it is. It 542 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:16,920 is exemplary of how in the past people locally organized 543 00:44:17,199 --> 00:44:22,639 resistance against federal tyranny. So the two different tiers of organization, 544 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,400 right there was the sort of local farmer, you know, 545 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:32,320 the local militia where every month or every every quarter 546 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,639 of the quarter of a year, guys would get together. 547 00:44:36,119 --> 00:44:41,719 They'd know, they'd train at the local muster point, they'd 548 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,199 break bread, and then they'd scheme of how to properly 549 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,000 how to properly regulate their own communities. This is the 550 00:44:53,079 --> 00:45:01,199 sort of it's it's civil society in action. It's it's 551 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,440 actual democracy as it funk as it was designed to 552 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:13,079 have functioned, where these local society, these local militia societies 553 00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:17,760 would Essentially what the Mingo Creek Society ended up doing 554 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:23,679 was they they both nullified the federal the federal excise 555 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,719 whiskey excise tax. But they also, you know, they they 556 00:45:29,079 --> 00:45:34,159 drew up you know, their their their local county or 557 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:41,320 local township school board curriculums. They they developed their own, 558 00:45:41,559 --> 00:45:47,679 you know, process for electing Pennsylvania state assemblymen. They know 559 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,599 this this this club. That club was the sort of 560 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:57,599 model society for the working man back in seventeen nineties. 561 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,639 But there was also the higher t of the democratic 562 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:09,880 societies that were the sort of socialite more socialite societies 563 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:16,039 where the more affluent members of Western Pennsylvania society would 564 00:46:18,159 --> 00:46:21,719 you know, they'd host all sorts of speakers and make 565 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:28,800 all sorts of toasts. Two more high minded, ideological, ideological 566 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,079 It's what they wanted to see America become. They were 567 00:46:36,599 --> 00:46:40,719 these democratic societies. They emulated the democratic societies that spawned 568 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,719 the French Revolution. But you know, don't don't get that, 569 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,320 don't let that, uh that put you off. It's what 570 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:52,559 they did, was they sort of they sort of what's 571 00:46:52,599 --> 00:46:58,760 the right term for uh? They they branded the the 572 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:04,960 sort of lower level Mingo Creek society action into something 573 00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:09,960 palatable for the elites of their time in place. And 574 00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:16,880 this the sort of ideological like laundering trans like went 575 00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:23,800 from your localized the localized guys would do what they 576 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,960 need to do on the ground, and then the more 577 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,599 high higher members of society wined and dined the elites 578 00:47:31,559 --> 00:47:36,400 and put into practice and distribution what the guys on 579 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:42,719 the ground were up to. Now it's it's difficult to 580 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,800 recommend this because of the actions of the actual Mingo 581 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,079 Greek Society or MCO Greek Association as they were called, 582 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,880 because what they were doing were you scaring off tax 583 00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:01,159 collectors and tarian tarian feathering people for most of the time. 584 00:48:02,639 --> 00:48:07,119 But it's it's it was exhilarating to actually read about 585 00:48:07,119 --> 00:48:10,760 how these guys organized way back then. And I think 586 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:16,360 bringing back the old sort of democratic model that we 587 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:22,159 that this country's was actually founded on is I guess 588 00:48:22,199 --> 00:48:26,679 it's a it's a breath of fresh air because these societies, 589 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,559 you know, went to Tolkville talks about how we have 590 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:39,960 the social fabric of interlocking fraternal and societal organizations. He 591 00:48:40,039 --> 00:48:47,320 really he really underplays the level of communal societal obligations 592 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:54,159 that there were organization on a local level. Is is 593 00:48:54,199 --> 00:48:56,559 one hell of a drug. And it was exhilarating to 594 00:48:56,559 --> 00:49:00,239 actually read about. But you know, I do, I do 595 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,719 have these two models that we could discuss. 596 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:11,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's do that, because one thing that's been 597 00:49:12,559 --> 00:49:16,760 really drilled into us, you know, especially since the War 598 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,559 of Northern Aggression, is that we're a federal society and 599 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,800 national politics is the only thing that can cause change. 600 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,159 So and we know that that's not true. We know 601 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,119 that that's never been true. So why don't you talk 602 00:49:30,119 --> 00:49:31,800 about your models? 603 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,519 Speaker 2: Well they I sort of already went over the two 604 00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:41,960 different the two different tiers that were organized during the 605 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:49,079 Whiskey Rebellion. But there's the I want to say that 606 00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,159 before you know, like you said, you know, the Civil Wars, 607 00:49:53,639 --> 00:49:57,320 the society was a lot more democratic, and it's still 608 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,840 it was still a whole lot more democratic after this 609 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,159 al ward than what we have now. There's something that 610 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,159 was lost in the sort of mass media age in 611 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:17,239 the it's sort of impersonalizing, because impersonalization of politics. I 612 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,880 have a book called for the Common Good by Kaufman 613 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:27,039 that goes over I guess fraternal networking at the turn 614 00:50:27,079 --> 00:50:31,519 of the century, late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, and 615 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,800 even back then. You know, there's a chapter called competitive Militants, 616 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,199 where you know, your local guys would compete to get 617 00:50:40,199 --> 00:50:50,440 into the most exclusive rifle club or rifling militia. It's 618 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,199 it's exhilarting to actually read about. And it's a shame 619 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,559 that all this was sort of killed in the well. 620 00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:03,960 The problem is that the boomer generation never actually took 621 00:51:04,199 --> 00:51:10,039 up these fraternal these for these old Boomer the pre 622 00:51:10,119 --> 00:51:15,119 boomer fraternal organizations that their forefathers actually had, UH, and 623 00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:17,960 there was a whole lot there wasn't as much of 624 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:23,840 a need to have militias, you know, in place when 625 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,480 there weren't massive unions that the militias were used to 626 00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:32,280 actually put down. And also there was a whole professionalization 627 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:36,440 of the American military that really kind of was the 628 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,639 death death nail for that for that sort of Mingo 629 00:51:40,679 --> 00:51:47,639 Creek association social networking order. I guess, I guess I'm 630 00:51:47,679 --> 00:51:52,320 sort of I guess my article is somewhat anachronistic in 631 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:57,519 terms of the era that I actually describe, But there 632 00:51:57,519 --> 00:52:01,480 are sort of through points that still exists today where 633 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:07,320 having a local gun club that it is actually prestigious 634 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,000 and brings all of like the local movers and shakers 635 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:17,280 into into one room. It's still it still has a 636 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,840 whole lot of potential. It's one thing that I could say, 637 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,760 I guess I didn't really. I guess I really didn't 638 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,480 address your point of elaborating on the two different models. 639 00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,079 Speaker 1: Maybe that's and maybe that's a good thing. Let's keep 640 00:52:34,119 --> 00:52:40,000 some things close to the vest. Yeah sure, yeah, but 641 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,280 what you're talking about gun clubs and everything. Is basically 642 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,480 what you're talking about is you're talking about natural what 643 00:52:46,119 --> 00:52:50,760 are known as natural elites. You know, people in the 644 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:56,400 people in an area who you have something happens. They're 645 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,239 the kind of person what they used to call commonly 646 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,199 pillars of the community. And I don't think that a 647 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,440 lot of people realize just exactly how much power people 648 00:53:06,559 --> 00:53:12,000 like that have. I've been mentioning lately, mentioned it on 649 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,440 my My Life Dream yesterday, and I think I mentioned 650 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,960 on my sub stect this morning that you know, in 651 00:53:17,039 --> 00:53:20,440 the small town that I live in, we we had 652 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,320 a couple people transplants move in and try the woke 653 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,679 stuff and there was just one guy. There is one 654 00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,400 guy in the community who pushed back against it, and 655 00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:36,599 we never heard from these people again. So all it basically, 656 00:53:36,639 --> 00:53:38,920 all it takes is will. All it takes is someone 657 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,559 who's like, who's who's going to stand up and go, yeah, 658 00:53:41,639 --> 00:53:44,719 that's that's not the way we do things here. You're 659 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,000 not going to say that there are consequences that come 660 00:53:52,039 --> 00:53:55,239 along with thinking like this, but that's not the way 661 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,079 we do things here, and we are going to defy you. 662 00:53:58,199 --> 00:54:01,599 And that's exactly what happened they were openly defied and 663 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:06,519 things reversed and those people weren't heard from again. And 664 00:54:06,639 --> 00:54:08,159 if you have people who are willing to do that, 665 00:54:10,119 --> 00:54:11,079 you have power. 666 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:17,719 Speaker 2: Right it. Uh. It takes a very like a remarkably little, 667 00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:22,320 like a very small number of actual confrontations like this 668 00:54:22,559 --> 00:54:27,800 too to actually put a full stop to a sort 669 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:36,519 of local activism, like I guess in terms of scale, 670 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:44,559 really they were only like maybe like twenty guys in 671 00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:49,079 all of like in all of like western Pennsylvania that 672 00:54:49,079 --> 00:54:53,679 that actually went out and you know, knocked heads to 673 00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,719 make sure that the whiskey tax wasn't actually paid, that 674 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,880 you know, across several calend Like That's all that I 675 00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:07,880 really took to completely nullify the federal government's you know, 676 00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:15,719 the federal government's presence in Western Pennsylvania. Like it's it's 677 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,320 a little bit different now in the a much more 678 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:23,280 digital age. But I think the type of people that 679 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,039 you're talking about are are even more afraid of confrontation 680 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:33,480 than than I guess anyone you know, two hundred years ago. 681 00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,639 Like all it takes is one guy in one incident 682 00:55:36,679 --> 00:55:41,679 to actually get a certain point across, Like you don't 683 00:55:41,679 --> 00:55:46,239 want this type I can only imagine what kind of 684 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:50,199 nonsense the person was bringing. But it doesn't take much, 685 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,079 is what I'm just trying to say, to have a 686 00:55:52,199 --> 00:55:55,960 very very large rolling impact. 687 00:55:56,559 --> 00:56:02,440 Speaker 1: Well. And also if this was happening in Atlanta, that 688 00:56:02,519 --> 00:56:08,559 person could call upon reinforcements, could call upon NGO's with money, 689 00:56:08,679 --> 00:56:13,000 could could fight it. Could they could, they could get 690 00:56:13,079 --> 00:56:16,840 law enforcement to force. But when you're in a smaller 691 00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:21,320 when you're in a smaller polity, you know law enforcement, 692 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,320 You go to church with law enforcement, you know where 693 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:28,719 law enforcement lives, you know where the sheriff lives, you're friends, 694 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,000 you go to the gun you're at the gun range. 695 00:56:31,039 --> 00:56:33,960 At the same time, that kind of stuff doesn't fly. 696 00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:39,920 Speaker 2: I mean when you know when I'm when I talk 697 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,239 about I guess this h this very localized activism that 698 00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:49,320 went on back in the day. Everyone knew, everyone knew 699 00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:55,719 their neighbors like everyone. In order to in order to 700 00:56:56,079 --> 00:56:59,639 convert your greens into whiskey, you have to like only 701 00:56:59,679 --> 00:57:02,280 like one one in five or one in ten guys 702 00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,920 actually owned a whiskey. Still you had to you relied 703 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,400 on your neighbors to actually convert your grains into money. 704 00:57:10,199 --> 00:57:13,239 You spent. You know, once a month, you know, training 705 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:19,159 with your fellow guys. You you know, there wasn't exactly 706 00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:23,639 TV or smartphones to entertain you, so you actually had 707 00:57:23,679 --> 00:57:28,360 to be somewhat sociable. And in it was a much 708 00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:34,400 more it was a much more uh I guess, low 709 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:41,480 tech age where the mechanisms of actual communication and socialization 710 00:57:41,639 --> 00:57:49,400 were a lot more straightforward. But well, these guys went 711 00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:54,239 to church together, they practiced, you know, practice drills together. 712 00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:59,239 They they knew each other very intimately, and when the 713 00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:03,599 Feds came not talking, they closed ranks in a very 714 00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,480 organic kind of way. And that's a certain there's there's 715 00:58:07,519 --> 00:58:12,199 a certain virtue to that that you can encourage all 716 00:58:12,239 --> 00:58:15,480 of your all your listeners to actually participate in, because 717 00:58:16,239 --> 00:58:18,760 it makes one hell of a difference when you know 718 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,159 you're going on you're coming onto hard times and you 719 00:58:21,199 --> 00:58:26,840 actually have a vast social network to actually fall back on, uh, 720 00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,519 you know, whether it's your church or it's you know, 721 00:58:29,639 --> 00:58:33,920 gun club or you or even your little local OGC chapter. 722 00:58:37,199 --> 00:58:42,599 When when you know, social contagions enter your social network, 723 00:58:42,639 --> 00:58:47,639 you can actually socially deal with it internally. And these things, 724 00:58:47,679 --> 00:58:51,800 these things work themselves out very naturally, or like you said, 725 00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:55,519 the natural leaders kind of arise out of chaos to 726 00:58:55,599 --> 00:59:02,119 actually fight off contate social contagions. And that's something that 727 00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:07,199 all of the more anti social WOLP types don't Actually 728 00:59:07,719 --> 00:59:10,119 they can't actually like whenever they actually do show up, 729 00:59:10,159 --> 00:59:13,960 I RL, they can't really fight off you know, the herd, 730 00:59:14,159 --> 00:59:21,280 the hard edged reactionary, you know, much more this rule 731 00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:22,000 turn a phrase. 732 00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,760 Speaker 1: Well, these are people who are not used to hearing 733 00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:35,440 one word no, and people have been basically conditioned to 734 00:59:35,639 --> 00:59:39,480 not want to say no. And when you tell somebody 735 00:59:39,559 --> 00:59:44,119 now and you tell it to them firmly, they they 736 00:59:44,119 --> 00:59:46,599 don't first, they don't know what to do, and then 737 00:59:46,599 --> 00:59:49,079 it sort of instills a little bit of fear in them. 738 00:59:50,559 --> 00:59:54,880 And I guess that's the yes, that might be one 739 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,320 of the stages that we're at right now. 740 00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I won't be so and send the area 741 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:06,719 as to as to advocate for physical intimidation. Uh my. 742 01:00:07,599 --> 01:00:11,800 What I'm suggesting is that having a strong social network 743 01:00:13,039 --> 01:00:18,760 pays dividends in the long run. And it's not it's 744 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:22,320 almost never immediately clear how when you first get started, 745 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,280 but it does end up actually making a difference in 746 01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:30,039 ways that spontaneously arise. 747 01:00:32,039 --> 01:00:34,840 Speaker 1: And that's part of the Yeah, it's part of the 748 01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,039 lesson from the that's part of the from the that's 749 01:00:38,079 --> 01:00:42,519 a lesson from the history lesson you've given us. 750 01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,679 Speaker 2: Yep, well, thank you, thanks Pete for for letting me, 751 01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:56,480 uh pontificate a little bit. And it there's a I 752 01:00:56,519 --> 01:01:02,000 don't know coming doing this This project was I guess 753 01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:08,039 it was both I guess humanizing where you know, you 754 01:01:08,119 --> 01:01:12,000 literally I literally read the personal correspondences of all these 755 01:01:12,159 --> 01:01:16,159 actors who participated in the Whisky Rebellion, But it was 756 01:01:16,199 --> 01:01:20,639 also it was also interesting to see the social dynamics 757 01:01:20,679 --> 01:01:25,719 actually work themselves out because nominally, you know a lot 758 01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,599 of the people on the frontier weren't particularly eloquent people, 759 01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:35,840 but they did have very complicated uh business models and 760 01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:41,000 social networks and it's you know, the past is a 761 01:01:41,039 --> 01:01:44,840 foreign country and it's it was very interesting to see 762 01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:48,400 the rise and fall of the original Mingo Creek society 763 01:01:49,199 --> 01:01:55,599 and how what not to do is what I'd say, 764 01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:01,440 because they yea, their their sedition eventually did bite them 765 01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:08,320 in the the rear end. But in terms of in 766 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:12,119 terms of finding a good vigilante story, I don't think 767 01:02:12,199 --> 01:02:17,039 you could go much farther than that the original MCS. 768 01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:22,920 Speaker 1: All right, Clossington, let's close this out here and I 769 01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:29,320 will link to the long article slash book on the 770 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,599 o GC substack. Everybody, go to the OGC sub stack 771 01:02:32,719 --> 01:02:36,239 and please subscribe. We do keep some stuff hidden behind 772 01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:42,559 a paywall, and that stuff is is always reviewed well 773 01:02:42,719 --> 01:02:46,679 by those who are supporting the o GC. So do 774 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,000 that and watch for anything in the future of Clossington 775 01:02:50,079 --> 01:02:52,920 puts up. He has a tendency to do long form, 776 01:02:53,519 --> 01:02:55,960 so he's not gonna You're not You're not writing something 777 01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,039 long form every week, but like you said, you know 778 01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,480 every months. Yeah, as a couple of months ago by 779 01:03:02,559 --> 01:03:04,480 you're like a time to write another book. 780 01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:09,119 Speaker 2: Well, I mean I only really come out to discuss 781 01:03:10,039 --> 01:03:13,920 like either a whatever whatever book I public, small book 782 01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,199 of an article that I publish, or respond immediately to 783 01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:24,440 infrastructure collapses or explosions or anything like that. Just as 784 01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:30,880 a professional engineer. That's yep. There there's my hobby of 785 01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:36,840 writing novella's and then there is my professional gig of 786 01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:44,320 trying to tamper down more incendiary discussion around infrastructure collapses. 787 01:03:44,639 --> 01:03:46,880 So it's it's a it's a it's a very wild 788 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,119 tone shift that is why I'm trying to get across. 789 01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, you come, you grace us with your presence on 790 01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,679 the OGC live streams. When a bunch of pajeets run 791 01:03:56,719 --> 01:03:58,559 into the key bridge and knock it down. 792 01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:03,159 Speaker 2: Well they're still here or unfortunately. Yeah, I think I 793 01:04:03,239 --> 01:04:06,119 think I mentioned that they they had the goal of 794 01:04:06,159 --> 01:04:09,760 actually applying for you know, via work visas while they're 795 01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:13,679 while they're still here, even though they're like foreign citizens. 796 01:04:14,159 --> 01:04:18,559 That's that's like a that's a whole nother tangent though. 797 01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:22,880 Speaker 1: All right, man, I'll I look forward to seeing you 798 01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:25,440 in just over a month at the at the event, 799 01:04:25,639 --> 01:04:29,239 and yeah, keep it open that you can come back 800 01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:33,400 on soon or whenever anytime. Just reach out. Thank you, 801 01:04:33,800 --> 01:05:00,559 all right, thank you, Pete Su