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do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone
back to the Pekingana Show. Mark Weber's back. How are
you going? Mark?
Speaker 2: Very good?
Speaker 1: Good to be with you, very good. Yeah, I Uh, well,
we had talked about different subjects to discuss in our
meeting today and one that I guess we decided upon.
What you reminded me that NETANYAHUO was going to be
in meeting with Trump the day before we record this,
and it seems to be timely. So yeah, what are
your what are your impressions of that side show that
happened yesterday.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we discussed several topics, and I thought that
anticipating that Trump would be coming on yesterday, Tuesday, today's
the Wednesday, the fifth that that would be in the news. Well,
it's more than just in the news. I think the
world is certainly many many people are stunned by what
Trump announced yesterday at a news conference along with net
and Yahoo, in which he announced that the United States was,
he said, going to take over, take control and take
over control of Gaza, expel the nearly two million people
that live there, and turn the place into a what
he calls the riviera of the Middle East. And people
were just stunned. The BBC correspondent who was in the
room said, every he has never been at a news conference.
It was as startling and stunning as this.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: To me, it is very revealing about Donald Trump, and
I think really worth going into in great detail because
of what it says, not only about Donald Trump, but
about US relations with Israel, about the relationship with net Yahoo,
and really the larger US relationship with the Jewish community
and and with Israel. And so I think there's a
lot to say on that subject. And yesterday's announcement will
have people thinking and scratching their head, maybe getting angry
all around the world. This is this is It's really
incredible that Trump made this astonishing, astonishing statement.
Speaker 1: Trump said that we were going to annex Canada, and
we're not going to do that. Trump said that we
were going to annex the Panama Canal. We're not going
to do that. Trump said, We're going to take Greenland.
That might still be on the table, but that'd be
a negotiation. Why are we supposed to take this seriously?
Speaker 2: Well, because this was done. This was said, I guess
in a more formal way. Trump was reading from a statement.
He had made statements like this before in an offhand way.
This was presented in a serious way. I agree with
you that this will not happen for a whole lot
of reasons, but it's really revealing that Trump is pushing
this and what it says about America and about about him.
Really it he shows that Trump really doesn't care about
America or the American people in the way that many
of his supporters, I think believe or want to believe
that he does. He cares about well. He brought to
this discussion the mentality he's had for most of his life.
He made his money as a builder basically in New
York City. He sees world affairs, he sees the world,
he sees human relationships in a contractual business sort of way.
And that's why he's talking about building the turning Gaza
into a kind of Las Vegas, with no regard really
for the people who actually live there. And I think
that's really Donald Trump's way of looking at the world,
looking at himself, looking at life. And I emphasize very
strongly something I've tried to get people to understand for years,
to really understand what makes this man tick. Because millions
of Americans in twenty sixteen and also in November have
voted for him, putting hopes in him that are really
not going to be realized. They can't be realized. Donald
Trump is president, and he became president in twenty sixteen
and again because he was against the establishment. He's a maverick,
and his campaign was essentially a reactionary one, an understandable one,
a reaction against the trends, the trajectories that have been
in place for decades and decades in the United States
and Western Europe. And it's obvious to millions of people
on both sides of the Atlantic that the liberal democratic, egalitarian,
universalist ideology and the policies based on it which have
been in play since the end of World War two,
have failed. They're not working. It's not working out the
way we were promised, the way that the people who
pushed all these things said it would work out. And
Donald Trump called out the hypocrisy, the lies of the establishment,
and that's why he gained a tremendous amount of support.
But that's about as far as it goes. He doesn't
have a coherent, credible vision of what the country should
be like other than he and he sort of thinks
people should be winners. He believes in an America as
a kind of a corporation or a football team that
people get pride because it's it's winning. But that's a
bizarre kind of way of looking at things and not
and and sort of doesn't understand what I think human
beings are really like. He seems to think with regard
right now out of this Gaza project, the human beings
are completely economical animals that all they care about is
living well, and if he proposes a better deal for people,
they'll go for it. Why shouldn't they? But this isn't
This completely ignores the motivations that people have who believe
that they're fighting forefront and care about things more than
just their own economic well being and prosperity. This reminds
me a lot of what Trump. The way Trump looks
at the Middle East reminds me a lot of the
way Lyndon Johnson looked at the problem of the Vietnam
War when he was President. Bill Moyers, who was his
press secretary, later talked at some length about a conversation
he had with Lyndon Johnson. During the war, Lyndon Johnson
made a extravagant proposal to the North Vietnamese leader Ho
Chi Minh and the North Vietamese government about investing billions
and billions of dollars if North Korea Vietnam would simply
stop its war to take over or unify Vietnam. That
his fight in South Vietnam. In other words, he hoped
that he could buy off North Vietnam with alluring prospect
of a big, prosperous development of the Mekong Valley and
of North Vietnam. And Bill Moyers related how Lyndon Johnson said,
this deal, this offer is so great, he can't he
won't refuse it. He can't refuse it. And what it
showed is that that President Johnson didn't really understand that
for the Vietnamese leaders and the people who supported the
effort to unify Vietnam were motivated by not just well
welfare or a prosperity for themselves or their families. They
wanted a unified Vietnam, and they wanted foreigners out. They
wanted to determine their own future, and they were willing
to die and kill to make that happen. That they
wanted the Americans out, just as they wanted the Japanese out,
the French out who had been there for centuries. They
wanted Vietnam to be a free and independent country, which
is eventually what happened they won. But Blinda Johnson didn't
understand that either, and many people I'm Donald Trump, I
don't think understands that in the world, the Palestinians want
their independence, and other people around the world and the
Palestinians and including Zionist Jews, they something is more important
than just their own economic benefit and welfare. They're willing
to die and kill to bring about their own ethnic
or national identity and to secure that future for themselves
and their children. And Donald Trump doesn't seem to understand that.
Now that's got then this is important thing about Donald Trump.
Donald Trump has never said he's for the white race
or for America in the way that the founders had
envisioned it. He wants America to be a winner. But
a lot of that is the kind of mentality that
sees America as almost in the same enthusiastic way that
people are happy when their football team or their baseball
team wins a pennant or wins a World Series. That
they feel good about themselves, but it's not really to
the benefit long term benefit of the of the of
the people. I'm old enough to remember the enormous enthusiasm
that Americans felt for Ronald Reagan when he was president,
and he made people feel good because he had a
kind of vision of America as this great country. And
Donald Trump excites some of that same enthusiasm in his
mega followers. But at the end of the day, Ronald
Reagan signed off on an amnesty for the vast majority
of people who are in the country illegally at the time,
in the Simpson Misoli Act. And even though people felt good,
the country continued in the same direction, becoming an ever
more diverse third worldish, multicultural, multi racial society, and that
trend did not change. In fact, Ronald Reagan actually helped
to speed it up in somewhat the same way. Donald Trump,
even though he has started expelling some of the many
of the illegal aliens who are here in the United States,
he doesn't really care about the character of America racially, culturally, religiously.
What he cares about is that America is a winner.
You know. It's an interesting thing that in his inaugural address,
Donald Trump mentioned only one American president. He didn't mention
George Washington or Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln. He mentioned
William McKinley, and the most striking thing about William McKinley,
and most important thing wasn't his tariffs. As as Donald
Trump was trying to make the point, he was the
person who launched the Spanish American War, and the Spanish
American War was very popular at the time. Millions of
Americans were very excited with the idea that America would
become an empire. And it did. It became an empire.
He declared war against made war against Spain. Spain was
defeated in the United States gained control of the Philippines,
Puerto Rico, and Cuba, and Cuba was put under a
kind of American protectorate. Philippines was made a kind of dependency,
and Puerto Rico eventually became part of the United States
of America. Puerto Rican's or US citizens. Now that's very
impressed to a lot of people. America was big, or
it was another bit. It had joined the ranks of
the Bredation, of the French and other imperial powers at
the time, but it didn't make the America that the
founders of America really wanted better. Puerto Ricans are now
US citizens. Is that really what Americans want? Well, not really,
but it makes people feel good. And Ronald Trump has
a kind of similar idea that he wants to expand
or make powerful America, and in his inaugural address he
even mentioned talking about expanding the territory of the United States.
But the result of his bellicose rhetoric, which your question
implies he may never actually make happen, has distressed and
enraged millions of people around the world. Just in a
few weeks since he's taken office, he's managed to dismay
and rage and confuse millions of people around the world
who didn't feel as anti Trump or as anti American.
If he continues this, he will make America even more
despised than it is already with the only country in
the world if he carries this on that gets a
big thumbs up from the United States it would be
would be Israel, a country he apparently is more concerned
about than any other any other foreign country. Anyway, these
are all interesting aspects of all of this, and it's
an astonishing thing even to propose making an American outpost
or colony of Gaza, because this is very different than
what even his own supporters ever imagined. The mood in
America and even among Trump supporters is to get out
of foreign wars, to stay away from foreign conflicts, to
not be more involved in the interminable conflicts of the
Middle East or in other parts of the world. But
by his proposal to set up a US controlled rivier
of the Mediterranean in Gaza would mean inevitably getting the
United States even more deeply involved in the Middle East conflict. Anyway,
those are just some basic thoughts about this whole matter
that's really startling. I know that I've been surprised a
little bit that even though Trump presented this proposal in
a very serious way, it hasn't been talked about as
if it's very serious by many people here in the
United States. So far, It's been very startling to to
people outside the United States. But I think, like you, Peter,
they sort of think, well, what else is new? Donald
Trump's making another strange proposal, and who knows if it'd
ever really happen. People remember, of course, that he didn't
follow through on very important and much heralded promises he
made in his first administration. He promised to build this
big wall and Mexico was going to pay for it
in this administer In this second administration, he doesn't even
talk about building a wall anymore. He was going to
take withdraw American soldiers from Afghanistan, and his first administration
he didn't do that. That was finally done by Joe Biden.
And so people have a good reason to think that
this is just another proposal by Donald Trump that we
never actually come to come to fruition. But I'm trying
to get to something bigger. Not just that whether this
particular proposal will work or we'll ever see the light
of day, but that it says something about Donald Trump
and how little we can really count on him, and
how empty the hopes are that millions of Americans have had,
who have put so much hope on Donald Trump and
his promises to, as he says, usher in a golden
age of the United States of America.
Speaker 1: I don't know how many people take golden age at
face value. I think they just want things to improve.
So the first thing I saw when I woke up
this morning was a National Security advisor saying the proposal
will take over Gaza is meant to pressure neighboring Arab
nations to come up with their own solutions. Then the
White House Press Secretary comes out and says that the
American taxpayers will not fund the occupation in US troops
will not be on the ground in Gaza. And then
about two hours ago, the Israeli ambassador to the United
Nations said that Palestinians shouldn't be forced out of Gaza.
Looking at the language there, it says shouldn't be forced
out of Gaza, which means that it seems like that
implies to me, Well, then something, some kind of talks
are going to have to happen. And if anything, I
mean I immediately just wanted to get in touch with
a friend of mine who was in the military and
participated in war games, did stuff like that, and I
asked him, I said, how feasible is this? And he said, well,
this is exactly what you'd have to do, and he
just listed list. It sends me a wallet text and
he goes, not feasible at all. So it's not going
to happen. I think you, I think you may be underestimating.
You may be looking at the attitude of the Trump
supporter who became politically active in twenty sixteen. They may
be older, they've never studied politics in their life. They
still haven't read a book on politics. They probably still
believe that World War Two was a good war, and
maybe they're like, oh, a golden age is coming in.
But I think most people at this point just want
to see some kind of change in a positive direction.
And when you take into consideration the other things he's doing,
especially what he's doing with the USAID, pointing that out
and all of this stuff is coming out about how
basically like Politico was funded by was basically financed by
USAID by American taxpayers. When you start seeing that, when
you start seeing him talk about dismantling Department of Education,
which Republicans have been talking about for forty five years,
but having done it, I think that people are at
the point where, Okay, the first the first Trump administration,
I don't think there are most people who would call
that an amazing success, especially with the last year of
COVID and Operation Warp Speed always gets brought up and YadA, YadA.
I mean, believe me, I'm old enough to remember the
first Trump administration and I was speaking out against him
what he was doing was doing terrible things too. When
he bombs Aria. It was the first thing. But people
are people want change. Trump is concentrating it looks like
he's going to war at least what they call the
post you know, what we call the post war consensus.
And is he going to win? Is he in it
to win it? Is he gonna go all the way
and go over the finish line? Who the hell knows?
I mean, they might just try and kill him again.
But I mean there's you know, I mean immediately, Trump
is not a politician. Trump is not a statesman. He
is exactly what you described. He's the CEO. That's the
way he's looking at it. And I think that that's,
at least for the time being. I think that is
what the future is going to be, especially as you're
trying to dismantle a managerial state that's existed for one
hundred years. Now.
Speaker 2: I'm happy you say all of this because maybe, as
a person who tries to compare what's happening with people
in the past, I put more more weight on the
words of people then maybe I should, especially somebody like
Donald Trump. In effect, you're saying you and millions of
most people are so jaded by the behavior of Donald
Trump that they don't expect anything really until they actually
see it happen. It's enough that things get a little better,
and all his talk is really just to be dismissed
as rhetoric.
Speaker 1: I guess weller, Remember, one of the subjects that we
could have talked about was my journey through libertarianism. And
one of the reasons why I left libertarianism is because
there's no good. Libertarians only want the perfect, Like if
you're not ending the state right now, they don't care,
you know, and you know, and I'm one of those
people who I would like to see Jewish power demolished,
I mean destroyed. Yet that's I mean, that's not in
the cards right now. I mean maybe sometime down the line.
And I think everyone who voted for Donald Trump, who
also concentrates on Jewish power like I do, knows that
he's not going to destroy, you know, go after Jewish
power and seek to destroy it. But we're willing to
see what can actually what kind of building blocks can
be can be set up towards a future down the
line where we're no longer a Zionist occupied government. And
I mean, the way I looked at that press conference
was he was basically spitting in Netanyahu's face, right in
his face to him. He laid out everything he laid
out that the Goaza was unlivable. Well, who's responsible for that? He?
I mean, net Yahoo was blindsided up there by what
was being said. And I don't That doesn't tell me
that they're mortal enemies and he wants to destroy him
and he wants to see him out of power as
much as most of the people in Israel want to
see Yahoo out of power. But it does tell me
that maybe he's maybe Donald Trump is a you know,
the whole thing about forty chess that they talked about, Oh,
he plays forty chess well in the first In the
first in the first term, he didn't play forty chess
at all. And in this term, what he's doing is
he's just coming in with a sledgehammer and he's just
tearing stuff apart. I mean, getting rid of the Affirmative
Action executive order from Lyndon Baines Johnson. Who would have
ever thought of that in their lifetime? Who had ever
thought they would have seen that in their lifetime, just
that one thing, or the j Sex prisoners being all pardoned.
And I'm sure there are people out there who just
want to blame that whole thing on him. Well, you
didn't do anything, you know, I mean, he couldn't. What
could he do was that office?
Speaker 2: But okay, those are good points. But net Yahoo's reaction
was not somebody who was either blindsided or unhappy. He
was very happy that Donald Trump said what he said.
In fact, I got the impression that Donald Trump had
a meeting with someone who's a lot more focused, a
lot more intelligent, a lot savvier than he is, and
net Yahoo was able to get him to bend to
his will, as he has repeatedly, as net Yaho was
the Israel was pushing for the US attack on Iraq
with George W. Bush in two thousand and three, and
he did it even though virtually everyone who knew anything
about autim Middle East predicted the fiasco that it turned
out to be. But he did it anyway. And Netnaho
has bragged in private about his ability to make America
American leaders do what he wants them to wants them
to do, I mean a specific regardless of it. With Gaza,
Trump can say several things. He can say, well, Gaza
should be ruled by the people who live there, or
he could say Israel should control Gaza, or and this
is what he did say yesterday, America is going to
control Gaza. We're going to take control of it, he says,
and net Nyahu probably thinks, well, that's a good way,
because now it doesn't look like, hey, we're just standing
back and letting America take care of the problem. Let
America take the blame. Let America do all of this,
and then we'll benefit it, because benefit from all of this,
because after America's done building the whole thing up and
kicking everybody who lives there out, will get control of
the whole thing. And in line with that, the more
hard line members of the Israeli government responded to the
plan by saying, great plan, We're all in. Let's go,
let's do it. Public opinion polls in Israel show that
the vast majority of Israeli Jews now want to expel
all the Palestinians if nothing else happens out of all
of this, and is happy that's right and now and
now Donald Trump is making American policy to support the
expulsion of all of these people. That hasn't happened before.
That's a new thing, and that's a big win for
net Yahoo and for those people who want and expanded Israel.
It's not a diminution, a decrease of Israeli Jewish power.
It's a it's a win for them. And the proof
of that is that those people who are the most
ardent fighters for Jewish power in Israeli hegemony are happy
with what don Trump said yesterday. They're not unhappy.
Speaker 1: I think the proof of it is when you see
it happen. That's the proof of it. The proof of
it is when you actually see it happen. I mean,
you're you already have the you're you already have the ambassador,
the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, counter signaling what
Trump said yesterday. Why would he counter signal that if
everybody's so happy about it. If Netanyahu walked out of
there so happy about all of his dirty laundry being
shared on the on the stage, and Trump talking about, well,
we're going to take this over, why why is he
Why is Trump immediately backing down and going now, we're
not going to put boots on the ground now, we're
not going to pay for that. No, Well, it's it
seems I mean, we can talk about his about how
terrible historically his negotiation tactics are, and you know, maybe
this is well not maybe, but you know statement statesmen
shouldn't be negotiating this way. But I mean, well, basically,
at this point, it doesn't look like boots are gonna
be on the ground, it doesn't look like anybody's going
to be paying for it doesn't look like anyone's going
to war, and it looks like Israel has already has
sent THEIRS told their ambassador to walk back what Trump
said yesterday. So I'm i'd be interested. I don't know.
I'm I can only go by I can only go
by what people if we're gonna go, if you're gonna
if you're gonna use what people are saying as an
example of this is hey, Israel one, Well I'm gona
then I guess I'm gonna have to use other people
their own words to say they're back and down. And
this seems kind of odd.
Speaker 2: Well, well, okay, I I didn't hear that the Israeli
ambassador said that. He may say that this may be
back and forth, but there's no question I think that
Jewish power is not at all diminished in terms of
US policy with the Trump administration compared to how it
was even with the first Trump administration of the Biden
deministration now having said that, what is happening in the world, though,
is a real rise, an enormous increase in awareness about
the real nature of the Israeli state, the real nature
of what Israel has done and it is doing. And
the world has gotten a tremendous education since October seventh
about just how brutal, how oppressive Israel can be, not
just the Israeli government, but supported by the Israeli public.
And Donald Trump has done nothing to tamper down on that.
He hasn't said even a single word of caution or
whatever offsetting any of that. If anything, of the press
conference yesterday was a green light for a new wave
of oppression, of killing, of dispossession that Israel has been
carrying out. I mean, the big question of yesterday's meeting
between Netnahu and Trump was not just immediately about the
hostage deal. It was who's going to control Gaza after
the war is over? And there was a lot of
talk and speculation, of course, the would be something like
some outside force would come in the United Nations, some
multinational force, maybe the Palestine Authority. But Donald Trump has
set all that aside and said basically Palestinians aren't even
going to have a say in what the future of
Gaza is going to be. And he's on board with that,
and of course Netna who supports it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2: We have to go by what the actual policies, actual
results of the policies are, and on that basis, Israel
is stronger than ever. Having said that, it's actually weaker
in the sense that its position in the world is
much much less than it was a year and a
half ago. I mean, Israel is held in net Yahu
is in danger of being arrested in half many of
the countries of the world because there's an international warrant
for his arrest. But I suppose what we can say
all of this is by what happened yesterday. And even
to have a government placed like Donald Trump that nobody
can count on its leaders meaning what they say or
saying what they mean. This is a sign of a country,
or of a government or a society that is really
falling apart. Because a healthy society is not one that
is saying one thing and doing another and playing as
you say, for d chess. It has to or it
has to be to be stable, to be predictable is
important for any healthy society. And Donald Trump, I guess
you're saying that the chaos and the confusion he sows
is all part of a bigger plan. Well, maybe it is,
but the consequences for America and for any country and
for the world are very bad. People want and crave
and have an understandable desire for at least predictability and
a clear vision of the future, and then policies that
try to go to that vision. Donald Trump doesn't have that,
and he's not able to do that, and he wasn't
able to do it in the first administration. He's not
able to do it. Now, You're right, we have to
judge by the end result, and the end result is
I mean, he's a reactionary president. Personifies the unhappiness that
millions of Americans have, people are throughout the European Western
world have with the direction we've been going in, and
he's opposed to that. But he has no real vision
himself of the kind of country he does want to
have his anyway, That's so yeah, we have to, of
course see and I've said that, I've been saying that
for months now. I'm very happy that that Trump is
in office, if for no other reason that finally we'll
get to see what the policies actually turn out to be.
And so that's I guess beyond that, neither of us
are able to say with any certain what will happen,
because Donald Trump is the kind of man that he is.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and I agree with you on much of that.
I would ask and I'm not implying at all that
this is what he's doing, as far as like, I'm
not implying at all that he is playing forty chest
to destroy Jewish p to say one thing, even is
even get other countries and other cultures mad at us.
But I mean if there was someone who came along
who did decide that he was going to take down
Jewish power, try to take down Jewish power, and he
did stuff like this that he was completely intent on it,
and he said one thing out of one side of
his mouth, but he was meaning another, I don't think
we'd have a problem with that.
Speaker 2: Right right. I guess another way to look at this
is a Donald Trump administration more likely than a Democratic
administration to speed up the dissolution of America, to speed
up the decline and the breakdown of America. This is
an argument and a discussion that many, many people have
been having for several years, and you could there's good
points to be made on both sides of that argument.
Is America more likely to break up? Is Donald Trump
more likely to speed up the break down of America?
Or is a Democratic Is Kamala Harris or Joe Biden
more likely to do that? I guess we'll never know,
but Donald Trump is contributing in his own way to
that to that breakdown, by uh, by his by the
by Donnelly, his rhetoric, but even his actions.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, what I would say is, and I've
been saying this for a while now, at least for
over a year, is that I've concentrated. I've been talking
about localism, for concentrating on your local area more than
anything else, for you know, for years now. And you know,
I know Jared Jared Taylor has been really pushing that
forward a lot lately. But what I would say is,
if Donald Trump is ushering in the destruction of the
United States, or if he's if he's ushering in a
golden age, local politics is going to be more important
than ever because along with that destruction, obviously we know
what comes along with destruction. We're going to have to
rely upon ourselves. We're gonna have to rely upon our
neighbors and our brothers, the people you go to church with,
all that. But if there's a golden age, a golden
age immediately implies that welfare and handouts get cut off,
so you would have to start planning locally either way.
So the way I look at it is if he
is ushering in the destruction in the United States, or
he's ushering in a golden age, local politics is the
only way to go because either way, you're going to
have to rely upon the most the people who are
the most immediate around you, you know, whichever fork in
the road that takes.
Speaker 2: I don't disagree at all. No, that's all true. And yeah,
it almost doesn't matter whether a Democratic or Republican president
UH is more likely to hasten the breakdown of the
country or not. What's important is that we concentrate on
each of us doing what we can in our own way, locally,
in our own whether from our own from our own
vantage point, to do what we can, to raise awareness
and to do what we can. That's that's that's I
agree completely.
Speaker 1: Well, here's here's something I'll ask you. So, I've heard
numbers coming out of Israel that, you know, people just
don't like net Yahoo. Now, whether I know there is
a huge liberal leftist like, you know, a multi cultural
like Tel Aviv is the gayest considered to be the
gayest city on the planet, these aren't people that like
net Yahoo. There's other factions. I think net Yahoo isn't
doing enough to destroy the to destroy the Palestinians. I've
also heard that up as many as thirty thousand small
businesses have filed bankruptcy in the last eighteen months because
you just can't do business in a country that's getting
bombed all the time. Is you have people coming over
the border in the north looking to kill, you know,
looking to kill Israelis no matter what well absent putting
troops on the ground, and you know, putting American troops
on the ground double you know, tripling the amount of
fighting people there and pouring money into it. I mean,
does does Israel, even with Donald Trump's support, even if
it's only verbally, does Israel survive this?
Speaker 2: I've been involved with Israel and Palestine issue since I
was well for many years. For a while I worked
for in his day, probably the most prominent now spoken
anti Zionist, a Jewish writer in America, Alfred Lilienthal. This
is back in the nineteen seventies, and I've been following
this for a long time, and I've always regarded Zionism
as an aberration in Jewish history. With very few exceptions,
throughout all of history, Jews have been successful not in
a state of their own, but as a people who
thrive on developing a relationship with another host population. And
Jews have are very attuned to varying their message and
how they act in each country with a very very
fine tune awareness of the mentality of the people among
whom they among whom they live, and that works for
a while. That makes from one place after another, whether
in Babylon or Egypt or Spain in the fourteen fifteenth centuries, Europe,
the United States, Jews are very attuned and they also
help shape the media on how people think in whatever
society they're in. But the result has always been the same,
The same cycle repeats itself over and over. Eventually, people
become very unhappy with the Jewish role in their society
and inevitably there's a reaction. The Jewish population is kicked out, killed,
driven out, and Jews understand that the Jewish narrative of
history is that this cycle repeats itself over and over,
and then Jews go to a new country and the
whole pattern, the whole cycle repeats itself. And so Zionism
is really an aberration because the whole premise of Zionism
is that Jews should become a normal people. They should
have a country of their own, and Jews should live there,
and if they don't live there, they shouldn't be considered
Jews anymore. They should either go or they'll be assimilated
and gone. And that vision of how Jews should be
is what Zionism is. Modern Zionism was supposed to be.
It's laid out in the Manifesto of Zionism the Jewish
State by Theodore Hertzel, the Jewish writer who coupended in
eighteen ninety seven, and at first it was reaction resistance
to it, but it became increasingly a popular idea. Now
the problem is that the State of Israel has never
fulfilled its promise. It was supposed to be quote a
normal country, a self sufficient country. That's not happened. From
its very beginning to the present, Israel to even stay
in existence has required tremendous outside help and support from outside,
not only from Jews outside of Israel, but more importantly
from governments, especially the United States government to a lesser extent,
the German government and others have given Israel and allowed
it even maintained so that it could even stay in existence. Secondly,
the Jews were supposed to go to move in Israel.
The truth is that most Jews prefer not to live
in Israel. They do better individually living outside of Israel.
And it's especially true now because Jews are actually safer
and live better in Chicago or Berlin or even Moscow
than they do in Israel itself. And Israel also supposed
to be a normal country, and that it was supposed
to live in sort of peace and some sort of
tolerable relationship with its neighbors. In fact, from nineteen forty
eight when Israel is founded the present, as everyone knows,
it's been in constant oil and conflict with people in
and in and around it's it's borders, and so it's
been an abnormal country in that way, and increasingly Jews
see this. They they're not happy about it. They're embarrassed.
Increasingly Jews are outside of Israel are embarrassed by their country.
And so it's it's it's it's an aberration. And you
you touched on just the economic situation in Israel, proper Israel.
The cost of living is very high in Israel. It's
not easy to live there. And not just that there's
wars and problems like that, but there's a kind of
tension to Israel. You talked about. Benjamin Natyaho is not
very popular, that's true. He's held in a kind of contempt.
And one of the remarkable things is when Benjamin natna
who comes to the United States, at least before this visit,
he always spoke to Congress and got standing ovations, something
that the US Congress does not give to any American leader,
and the Israeli Parliament does not even give to net Yahoo.
He's more rapturously applauded in the United States than he
is in his own country. Now, having said that, the
problem in Israel is that there's no other figure as
a droit cunning capable of holding together a fragile coalition
in the country, and the country has divided as Israel
as a mendiement net Yahoo. He has problems within his
own coalition, but there's no obvious replacement for him, and
even people that don't like him will still support him
because they're even less happy with any alternative. That's a
expression of just how fragile, how divided, how confused Israeli
society is. Internally, he has a bare majority in the
Parliament of Israel, he has factions and disagreements within his
own administration, and he also, I mean, this is a
common view in Israel is that Meggia mi Meta who
wants to continue the conflict with Gaza and the Palestinians
because once peace quote unquote returns, then it'll go. Then
the effort will be resumed to try to bring him
to justice for corruption. He's considered even by Israelis, he's
considered a slippery, deceitful, dangerous sort of fellow. But he's
sort of our guy, and so they support him in
that way. There's not a single world leader who's dealt
with net Yahu over the years who doesn't privately think
he's mendacious, that he's a liar, and virtually every I
mean memno Macron in France, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, everyone
privately knows that that's the kind of man Netnah who is.
But that's that's the reality, and so they deal with
it and they don't talk about it publicly. Now, so
the Israeli experiment maybe even coming to an end. Elon
Pope is a very prominent Israeli historian. He's a critic
of Netanyahu, He's a critic of the Zionist experiment. He's
done a great deal of pioneering work in showing how
right from nineteen forty eight, Israeli leaders embarked on a
conscious effort to kick out, expel as many non Jews
as possible from the new Jewish state, something that was
covered up or not really very well understood. And Elon
Pope just said in a recent interview, he said he
thinks that the Zionism is coming to an end, Israel's
and it's really even though it's more blustrous and boisterous
and aggressive right now, these are signs really of weakness
that Israel may be, he thinks is coming to an end.
He says, I don't like to make predictions as a historian,
but these are signs really of a society that's actually
very weak. I think a similar thing could be said
about the United States. I've made comparisons with the United
States today and the British Empire. In nineteen thirty nine,
when Britain declared war against Germany, the British Empire was
larger than it ever had been. After World War One,
the British Empire got even bigger, taking, as France did,
some of the parts of the former German and Ottoman
Turkish Empire. But Britain was already on the decline. For
people who understood the rise and fall of countries and
of societies, it was already obvious that the time, during
the time of the Boer War and already during the
First World War, that Britain was not a very healthy society.
And people confuse the outward express of power empires, military
and so forth. In nineteen thirty nine, the British Navy
was still the number one, by far, most important naval
power in the world. But Britain was really weak, really internally,
it was not a healthy society. And that's true of
the United States today. It's not a healthy society. There's
something very going back to Israel. Yes, I mean, I'm
going to double down on this. It has severe problems.
The birth rate of Ashkenazi Jews, of better educated Jews,
is very low. And the population of Israel proper I
mean Israel, not including the West Bank or Gaza, which
is about twenty percent Arab or non Jewish anyway, increasingly
is there's a higher birth rate among the non Jewish
Arab population and among Orthodox Jews. And Orthodox Jews themselves
have their own reservations about the Israelians, the Zionists experiment
and so forth, and they don't fit very well into
a modern or a secular society. In fact, that one
of the biggest arguments going on in Israel in recent
years is whether the ultra Orthodox should even be recruited
into the military. But these are all signs of internal
problems within Israeli society. But anyway, to sort of sum up, yeah,
there's some big, major problems in Israeli society, highlighted by
two major things. One is many, many Jews, even Israeli Jews,
prefer not even to live in Israel. They want to
lead because they can make a better living for themselves elsewhere.
And that's not unusual in Jewish history, the vast majority
of Jews throughout history have lived among non Jews, and
they do well better that way than on their own.
And second, the events of the last few years have
underscored that the state of Israel requires needs huge infusions
of support and aid from outside, in this case the
United States, even to stay in place. And so those
are signs really of great weakness in Israel. But anyway, though,
that's my kind of response to your question about what's
the future of Israel or how how it's looking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say that, you know, zion Is the
state of Israel is basically an anachronism now, but you
know there were before Zionism there was a problem. Yeah.
I'm reading two hundred years together now with doctor Matthew
Rafael Johnson, and it comes back to the question of
how do you how do you live in a society?
How do you have a society when there is a
group of people, very small, very well organized, very motivated
in most cases have a lot of cases have international financing.
I mean, how do you live with them? How is
you how do you have a society and a culture
of your own? When history tells us when they come
into your society, they take they seek to take over.
Speaker 2: Right. Well, this is what's commonly called the Jewish question.
I know that's considered more or less anti semitic even
to use the phrase, but it's the phrase that everybody used,
including Jews used it. The Jewish question is basically a
perpetually puzzling one. What's the relationship and should be the
relationship between yond Jews and non Jews in society. That's
a difficult one because and Theodore Hertzel in his book
The Jewish State lays this out rather well. He said,
the reason there's tension and problems between Jews and non Jews,
and has been from the beginning to the present, is
because of the peculiar nature of the Jewish relationship to
non Jews. Jews insist on maintaining a separate identity and
a separate agenda even as they live among people different
than themselves. And so Theaterre Hertzel lays this out that
it's absolutely understandable. In fact, it would be bizarre otherwise
that non Jews resent this because Jews are not really
fully in their agenda, and their identity and their interests
are not the same as the people among whom they live,
that inevitably leads to this tension and conflict and theatre
Hertzel lays this out in the Jewish State, that that's inevitable,
and he says he understands that. That's why he called
Zionism the final solution. That's the term he used to
the Jewish question. Now and every society has to go
through a cross or has gone through a process like that.
What I was, I mean, the assumption in America for many,
many years is that the magic of American society would
make everyone sort of assimilate into a new kind of
American identity. When William Buckley, when William Buckley was in
his prime, he was by far the most influential so
called conservative thinker for decades. He once said, Well, with
the passage of time, he said, and the World War
two gets receives further into the past, Jews will just
become like everyone else, and this kind of Jewish problem
will go away. And he also predicted that as with
the passage of time, Blacks would stop thinking of themselves
about in terms of the legacy of slavery. Well he
was wrong, but the point is that was the assumption
that Americans operated on for many, many years. The assumption is, well, okay,
we have these different identities that are left over from
the old country, you could say, but with the passage
of time, everybody will sort of assimilate and will all
sort of be Americans. That's the kind of ideal that
was propagated again and again in the United States. That's
all changed now. It's very clear that Jews, of course
not all Jews, but the majority of Jews still regard
themselves as a distinct people. And this is the whole
premise of the whole Jewish thing. I mean, and as
you well know. I mean, this is laid out by
any number of writers, and it's in the Old Testament,
It's in the Jewish Torah that Jews regard themselves as
not like other people. There are separate people, and this
is a central defining feature of the Jewish identity. So
today that's all fallen apart as the kind of idea,
this liberal democratic idea of a proposition society is all
falling apart, and people can see that, and that that's
the big challenge I think for the years ahead, is
that all these other groups Jews, Blacks and so forth,
are conscious of themselves as a as a different people
that is not like white America or not part of
the American idea. But white Americans, for the most part,
still insist on upholding what is basically a delusional idea
that we can have a kind of European Western society
even if the population is no longer Westerners, no longer Europeans,
and that, I think is the is the great challenge,
you know. In his inaugural address, Donald Trump went out
of his way to thank black Americans and Hispanic Americans
who voted for him. He didn't mention white Americans. And
the reason he didn't is because, I think for him
and for his own people, they take that for granted.
They think that's not even necessary to mention. And for
a long time in American history, when the population was
ninety or eighty five percent white and non whites were
basically invisible, then they were able to sort of take
that for granted, to take for granted that the view
that almost everybody, including foreigners, had that America is this
kind of white country. But the white population, the European
population of America now is, or very well very soon
will be a minority, and that will have consequences. That
trend has been continuing will continue in the years ahead,
regardless of whether Donald Trump deports a million or two
million or not illegal aliens in the United States. That
same basic demographic trajectory is still continuing. But anyway, point
is that we're coming to a time where it's no
longer possible to just take for granted what used to
be taken for granted, not only about white Americans and
their identity in this country called the United States of America,
but also for Jews. And we're coming to a time
which has been a trend going on for a while now,
of increased and ever more pointed racial ethnic identity. And
the ones group in America that so far is still
resisting that are white America, European Americans, and especially Donald
Trump supporters, and Donald Trump himself he sort of thinks
he can sort of take that all for granted, and
that's not true. It can't be taken for granted, and
that will become even more obvious, I think as the
Donald Trump administration comes along, and even more after Donald
Trump's out of the White House.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I can't make excuses for somebody who doesn't,
you know, isn't racially aware, but I mean he's an
almost eighty year old man in the United States. I mean,
that's just what they've been taught. It's just the color blindness.
It is, you know, the Civil rights the champion the
Civil Rights Act, like it was yeah, like it was
as great a victory as World War Two. I mean,
I have trouble. I wish there were you know, people
in power or seeking power who had that understood that,
but I mean it's just not in the cards now,
and it's one of the you know, it's just I
can't yell at leaders, even ones that I like, for
not not saying that, especially if they don't if that's
not something that they believe. You know, it's just it's
so in grain. There's so much that needs to be
unlearned that has been put into us in the last
hundred years that yeah, it's going it's it's either going
to all fall apart or people are going to start
waking up. And I think I just think it's going
to fracture. And I'm not saying, you know, like secession,
they're gonna be secession movements and we're leaving the United States.
I think it's just going to be the facto. I
think people are just going to separate, and I think
white people are going to go live with white people,
and black people are going to flock to black people,
and Spanish are going to do that the same. And
you know, I mean, you're already it's at that's a
hano community in Texas is tight has been tight knit
for you know, a couple of centuries, you know, So yeah,
I mean I just think that's that's where it's coming
to expect. You know, the people I know who call
themselves like white nationalists, like that's how you can There
are people who are white, there are people who are nationalists,
and then there are people who call themselves white nationalists.
And when I listen to people who call themselves a
white nationalists the way I listen to libertarians who are
talking about how, you know, everything would just be great
because the government is the government is the cause of
all our evils, so we have to get rid of
the government. And they're talking about you know, it's like, well,
we're not unless we have a white ethno state. Well
you can have a white ethno state, You're just not.
It's not going to happen on a mass scale. You're
going to have to do it. It's going to have
to be at scale, and that scale is going to
be small. And you know, if you go and do it,
don't announce it, don't tell people. Don't you know, don't
be like, we're all going to move over here because
we're all white, we all have as and I have
no problem with that. I want I want to see that.
Just shut up about it. You don't you know, we
don't live in a we don't live in a society,
we don't live in a in a spirit of the
spirit of this age, isn't that. Just go do it,
it will be it's changing. You're going to have to
build it on your you have to build what comes
next now because if everything does fall apart and you're
not ready, you're going to be in pain. You're going
to be hurting, Your people are going to be hurting.
So you need to organize now. If you do think
everything's going to fall apart.
Speaker 2: Right, we're not in disagreement. These things happen organically. They
don't happen because somebody just wishes it to happen. I
think a comparison could be made to the mentality the
outlook of Americans or the people who lived in the
Thirteen Colonies. In seventeen seventy five seventeen seventy six, when
opposition to taxation by Britain took political form and delegates
from the Thirteen Colonies met for the so called Continental Congress,
the identity and the outlook of those people was still
that they were British subjects. They respected the King of England,
and they petitioned though to get what they regarded as
their rights within the British Empire. And it wasn't until
people fighting started, blood was shed that a big change
took place in mentality, in outlook, in identity. The big
change was changing the view that the white Americans of
the Thirteen Colonies were British subjects and British and loyal
to the King of England, to the identity that they're not.
They are Americans. There are separate people. And that took
place very quickly, over a very short period of time.
It was exacerbated, it was propelled a lot by this
pamphlet by Thomas Paine, Common Sense, in which he said, basically, no,
we're a separate people. And that's I think that kind
of change is absolutely necessary and I think it will
happen on a slower, faster basis when white Americans realize
that the important thing is not that this thing called
the United States of America is great or stays in place,
but what who we are? The identity? Who's the we?
And to me, the great question of our time and
a great question for every great transitional period in human history,
is who's the we that we're talking about?
Speaker 1: Who are we?
Speaker 2: And for most mega Americans and so forth, the we
is we're all Americans and the other non and white
Americans to sort of be like we are, that's not
going to happen. It isn't happening. But at this point,
white Americans still delude themselves and the thinking, well, if
we just have the right attitude, if we just can
why can't we all just go along, then it'll all
sort of work out. And one expression of that is
that Republicans and MAGA Republicans insist that the Democrats are
the party that really is bad because they talk about
race all the time. Mega people, we trump people. We
just want to be individuals. Well, no society is a
healthy society is a society just of individuals. They have
to have more to hold them together than just individuals.
Human beings are social beings, and social beings, as social beings,
we prefer to live and we should live in societies
of people like ourselves, and societies in which our leaders
are like ourselves and represent our interests. That's the normal
way that human beings have lived do live in a
healthy society. Americans are still very confused about that. And
the great challenge I think for the years ahead is too,
is the breaking down of delusional ideas about who we
are and what America is and what it should be.
And and that's that's going to be an even more telling, pointed,
acute question in the months and certainly in the years ahead.
Speaker 1: Oh, I agree with you one hundred percent. Everything you
said there is absolutely perfect. And yeah, that's that's some
work to do there. And you know, we need leadership too,
many people who are willing to take leadership roles, and
because he is always a leader at the at the
head of this and I think we see a lot
of that. So, yeah, this was great, and I really
appreciate the back and forth. You know, I I love
to most of the time when I do shows, I'm
completely agreeing with everybody and to have a little bit
of back and forth was was wonderful. I really appreciate that, Mark,
thank you. Good.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Likewise great, yeah.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: It helps us focus our own thinking and our own
our own dialogue.
Speaker 1: Because you and I want the I think you and
I want the same things. It's just a matter of,
you know, how do we get there? And that's always
that's always the argument, isn't it It's how do we
get there? It's uh? Is it? Is it? Baby step?
Is it? Baby steps? Is it? Is it? You know?
All of a sudden, there's this massive change, and I
think with technology and the internet is just so much
easier to find your own people, that things can happen
a lot quicker than people give. Then people actually believe,
the people actually think.
Speaker 2: Well, Peter, I uh like to express the compliment because
it's precisely the kind of show that you have and
the work that you and many others are doing that
is speeding that process along, and it's a necessary part
of all of that. And I'm very encouraged by the
coming to age of younger people who get it all,
who understand that, who see all of that in a
way far more clearly than I did. When I was
that age. But that's developing and it's not something artificial.
It's based on a recognition of a reality that more
and more people see. But I think you're doing a
great job in contributing to that organic process.
Speaker 1: Well, what I do want to say is, you know,
we can disagree on you know, when I disagree with you,
I take into consideration You've been doing this for a
long long time and it's guys like you that pave
the way for or what we're you know, what we're
experiencing now, the kind of especially the kind of organic
movements that are happening in real life. And thank you,
and just please promote, promote what you want to promote,
and we'll end the recording.
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you very much. Well, I do encourage people
who are listening to check out our website i hr
dot org Institute for Historical Review, and you'll find a
lot more on these and other related subjects.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Mark, I appreciate it. I always enjoyed talking
to you. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Likewise, Okay, bye bye,