WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.120 Four doors, four belts. 2 00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:06.759 That was only three clicks? Where's the last click? 3 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:08.320 Someone isn't wearing their seat belt? 4 00:00:08.439 --> 00:00:09.960 I need to ask them to put it on. But 5 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.439 what if you laughs at me? What if the others 6 00:00:11.480 --> 00:00:13.839 take off their belts in solidarity? What if I don't ask? 7 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:18.879 However bad you think asking will be, it's nothing compared 8 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:20.239 to what could happen if you don't. 9 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:21.800 Would you mind wearing your seat belt? 10 00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:24.920 No problem? Asking your mates to wear seat belt won't 11 00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:26.800 kill you every time, every trip? 12 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:28.160 Everybody belt up. 13 00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:30.199 A message from the Road Safety Authority. 14 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:35.000 Welcome to a GAST Classics twenty twenty six, four exceptional 15 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:39.399 limited series hand picked for their journalism, craft and storytelling, 16 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:43.520 including Sweet Bobby had quote him red handed west Core. 17 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:46.600 The trial turned on a single witnesses testimony. 18 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:49.320 The witness as, I didn't do it, so that's why 19 00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:52.000 I'm standing here. Carrie Jay does not exist. 20 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:55.719 She offered them exactly that, and then just bails. 21 00:00:56.200 --> 00:00:59.079 To find out more. Head to ACAST dot com. Forward 22 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:00.520 Slash Classics. 23 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:13.280 Welcome to Where Did the Road Go? Be sure to 24 00:01:13.319 --> 00:01:16.480 check us out online at www dot Where did the 25 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:20.319 Road Go dot com. Now enjoy this edition of the 26 00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:21.640 Midweek podcast. 27 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:29.840 Yes, welcome to Where Did the Road Goes? Midweek podcast. 28 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:31.719 I have a few of these an't going to be 29 00:01:31.719 --> 00:01:35.359 putting up for one reason or another that don't fit 30 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:38.959 into the main show. This you can actually watch the 31 00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:41.840 video of if you go to our YouTube channel oder 32 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:46.319 the video section of Where didthroadgo dot com. However, if 33 00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:49.480 you prefer to just listen to the interview, we have 34 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:55.239 here a conversation with Lard Scranton and John Anthony West. 35 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:59.239 And John was kind enough to invite us out to 36 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:02.799 his home and you can see that on the video, 37 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:08.439 and he was just such an amazing person to be 38 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:11.000 able to sit and talk to laired as well. The 39 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:15.919 conversations that happened off the off camera were just as 40 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:20.080 fascinating as the camera the conversation on camera. Lair drops 41 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:22.280 some big bombshells here near the end of this one too, 42 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:25.719 and we get into a little bit of what may 43 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:29.800 be coming up in alternative archaeology. So I hope you 44 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:33.719 enjoy this, and I do have some other midweeks I'm 45 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:36.360 going to be putting up at some point, dealing with 46 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:38.560 stuff that may be a little bit outside the typical 47 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:43.479 subject matter of Where did the Road Go. For instance, 48 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:47.639 the next one will probably be the one with Aaron 49 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:52.199 Gullias and Devo Spice talking about Doctor Who. I know 50 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:54.159 there's probably a lot of Doctor Who fans and the 51 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:55.840 where at the Road Go audience, But I'm not going 52 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:58.039 to air it as a regular show. It was actually 53 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:00.439 done for our last eggsit for the Lost Music Show, 54 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:03.800 but I think it would. It deserves, you know, an 55 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:05.159 airing here and if you don't want to hear it, 56 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:11.080 you just don't bother. So yeah, we'll see what else 57 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:14.840 I end up putting up in the midweek spot now 58 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:18.879 and again, all right, without any further ado, here's Lad 59 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:23.360 Scranton and John Anthony West. All right, so we are 60 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:28.599 here with mister John Anthony West and Laird Scranton, and 61 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:30.599 we're in John's home at the moment. 62 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:33.159 This is your home, right, Yes, this is my home 63 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:37.879 all right, some soon to become a museum. 64 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:44.120 And your large selection of books behind you. Yes, now, 65 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:47.280 I guess let's let's start with this. I mentioned this 66 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:51.199 to you already. Graham Hancock just recently posted a video 67 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:54.759 with Zahid Hawass kind of blowing up. What were your 68 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:55.560 thoughts on all that? 69 00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:01.000 Well, there are a lot of long to try and 70 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:05.759 keep them a bit briefer. Graham is a good friend, actually, 71 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:11.919 and I am, miraculously, given the history of the liaison, 72 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:17.800 actually pretty very good terms with Zahi. Doesn't understand how 73 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:22.519 good our evidence is. But we're cordial. We have drinks 74 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:25.240 together and sometimes the dinner together when I'm over in Egypt. 75 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:28.319 And I could see that this was not going to 76 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:33.240 be a successful venue. No matter what, nobody was going 77 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:37.680 to come out smelling of roses in principle, and mainly, 78 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:41.920 I should say, because in a real debate, Graham would 79 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:44.480 have made mincemeat out of Zahi. He wouldn't have had 80 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:46.879 a leg to stand on, and Zai would not have 81 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:50.800 liked that. And the press, if there was going to 82 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:54.360 be any particularly it was the academic or as I 83 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:58.120 call it, the quackademic press, would rally behind Zahi, even 84 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:01.360 though they really don't have a lot of respect for him. 85 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:05.079 So I could see that this was no good. But 86 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:07.240 Graham said, well, he'd already committed to it and he 87 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:09.240 had to go through with it. And I'm not so 88 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:12.920 sure Zai was too anxious about it either, because my 89 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:17.720 great friend who organizes my trips for me, Mohammad Nasmi 90 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:22.639 who runs Quest Travel. There's all my Egypt trips. He's 91 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:28.319 a good friend of Zahi's too, And we know, we 92 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:30.560 saw that nothing good was going to come of it, 93 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:32.680 but we none of us had any idea that it 94 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:36.519 would be this kind of a crazy thing to happen. 95 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:41.120 Because Belval showed up in a slide for as Orion theory, 96 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:46.399 which is central to the whole lost civilization ancient you know, 97 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:54.360 lost civilization, very ancient Egypt scenario was on the was 98 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:57.959 on one of Graham's slides for opening the show, and 99 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:04.279 Zai has an absolute loathing for Boval, and this is mutual. 100 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:07.879 But Zai, I mean, there was absolutely no reason for 101 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:11.040 him to explode the way he did and turn this 102 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:14.160 whole thing into, you know, something like I didn't know 103 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:17.600 a cross between Full Metal Jacket and the Marx Brothers 104 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:21.079 the others. And so whether or not there's going to 105 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:24.199 be any any repercussions, I'm still waiting. I mean, this 106 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.360 is only a few days ago. I hope not, because 107 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:33.800 this could have it could have, it could reverberate and 108 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:36.519 make it more difficult for us to get certain kinds 109 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:39.199 of work done in Egypt than it already is. On 110 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.079 the other hand, there might be a way too, There 111 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:45.480 might be a way to use it for our own 112 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.040 benefit and for the benefit of the whole actually, for 113 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:54.600 the whole, the whole research project, if we can turn 114 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:57.160 it around in some way or another. I'll be talking 115 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:01.399 with Mohammed and see if we can somehow or another 116 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:07.519 make some that makes something constructive out of it. It 117 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:12.360 doesn't look very possible given those Facebook postings and the 118 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:17.959 nature of the Zai's blow up. But Graham, as Graham 119 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:21.480 comported himself, I thought very brilliantly. He was absolutely calm 120 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:26.879 and cool and collected. And we'll see where are any 121 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:27.360 thoughts on it. 122 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:32.600 Well, you know, this is a field where tempers sometimes flare, 123 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:36.240 and tantrums are not uncommon. I've seen a few myself 124 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:40.079 over the years. Zahi and Robert will have a long 125 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:44.759 sad history back and forth on issues between the two 126 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:49.839 of them, and cross accusations and cross you know, blowing 127 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.600 up with each other in print and so forth. It 128 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:56.560 seems like a convenient excuse to bow out of a 129 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.519 debate that Zahi might not have wanted to participate in. 130 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:05.879 H That's a good point, all right. So we could 131 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:08.079 start with either of you, how did you get let's 132 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:10.399 start with Lair. How did you get interested in researching 133 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:12.600 Egypt and the Dogon? 134 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.040 It was actually by accident. My wife, Reesa, who happens 135 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:20.399 to be here today, had read a book called Unexplained 136 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:24.639 by Jerome Clark, where each chapter of the book involved 137 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:29.839 some unresolved mystery, and one of the chapters was about 138 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:33.039 the Dogan and about knowledge they seemed to have about 139 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:37.039 astronomy that they there wasn't appropriate to their status as 140 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:42.519 a modern primitive African tribe. They shouldn't know and be 141 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:46.399 able to detect without telescopes, that there are two stars 142 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:49.399 in that system, that bright star like the Sun, and 143 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.519 a small dark star that's a dwarf star, but that 144 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:55.120 orbits so closely to the bright star that you can't 145 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:57.399 see it because of the glare of the bright star. 146 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:00.679 And they knew things like the correct or period for 147 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:05.639 the stars, and they knew they had other other opinions 148 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:10.000 about aspects of that system that even astronomers today haven't 149 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:13.279 able to necessarily verify. They have hints of, but haven't verified. 150 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.720 So I thought that that would make an interesting research 151 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:19.960 project for myself, just for fun, and that took me 152 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:24.759 down a long path that has led to comparative cosmology 153 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.759 studies between cultures. 154 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:30.360 And John how long ago did you get interested in Egypt? 155 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:31.639 Has it been a lifelong thing? 156 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:36.600 No? No, it started in the middle sixties or so. 157 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:40.279 And I'll go back a bit further than that. At 158 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:43.240 a very early age, I was never a boy genius. 159 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.799 You know, they turn on your television every week there's 160 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:50.840 some eight year old kid playing they told him violins 161 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:53.080 and not an upside down while standing on his head 162 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:56.879 and eating ice peaking. It really makes you feel stupid. 163 00:09:57.480 --> 00:09:59.600 I was never one of those. But what a way 164 00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:05.279 was I was? I was psychologically precocious. I knew at 165 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:07.679 the age of thirteen that I had been born into 166 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:10.600 a lunatic asylum. And everybody else thought it was just 167 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:13.279 great and called it progress and all of that, but 168 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.360 I knew it was a madhouse. And by the time 169 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:18.120 I was nineteen, I knew what I wanted to do, 170 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:19.799 which was to be a writer, and I wanted to 171 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:22.840 be the little boy who said the Emperor has no clothes. 172 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:28.720 And I started but I had no thought ever of scholarship, 173 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:35.159 and basically my modus operandi was with satire. And I 174 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:39.399 started writing. I started getting published plays and novel, novel, 175 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:44.000 book of short stories, and then I moved when when 176 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:47.360 my first short story was published or accepted, I was 177 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:50.000 wildly and I was working on Madison Avenue. I was 178 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:52.879 twenty five, wildly enough, with a woman who, thank God 179 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:56.320 wouldn't have me, and otherwise I had stayed there and 180 00:10:57.399 --> 00:10:59.480 gotten around to writing the Man in the dark gray 181 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:02.080 blinds suit, and the one and the Men in the 182 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:07.279 double breasted dark gray flannel suit, and so on, and anyway, 183 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:08.960 I've been in Europe a year and a half in 184 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:14.720 the Army of fifty three to fifty five, and so 185 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:16.799 I wanted to go back to Europe where they named 186 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.759 streets after poets, to get my writing done. And again, 187 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:22.759 more long story that I found my way to this 188 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:28.039 magical island of Abisa, which became the party capital of 189 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:31.000 the world. Then it wasn't the party capital of the world. 190 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:35.159 It was this essentially medieval island, but with a burgeoning 191 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:40.240 and interesting art colony. Most everyone were, as art colonies 192 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:43.639 tend to be drunks or junkies, but a few of 193 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.320 us actually managed to get some work done, even though 194 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:49.120 we didn't drink any less than the other guys. But 195 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:54.919 over the course of being an avisa. More long story, Well, 196 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:56.480 I'll cut a charge. A good friend of mine who's 197 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:58.840 a Dutch novelist, a very good one. Actually, I went 198 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:01.720 to borrow some paper. My friend is. Remember this is 199 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:04.399 a medieval island. There's only one place that sells paper. 200 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:07.879 And it was a Sunday and I ran out of paper. 201 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.720 So I went to his place. Just we lived on 202 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:16.759 the beach right right on the Mediterranean Sea, a little adobe. 203 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:19.000 I had a little adobe and sort of like this, 204 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:22.799 except with that with the Mediterranean in front instead of 205 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:29.759 the waterfalls. And the rule was if you were actually 206 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:31.759 trying to get some work done that you didn't barge you. 207 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.360 And nobody had telephones. It was no communication. You didn't 208 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:37.600 just because you were feeling bored or depressed, you had 209 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:40.519 writer's block, knock on somebody's door and expect them to 210 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:45.000 treat you to know, another gallon of wine, and so 211 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.559 very apologetically, you know, yeah, and I really need some patents, okay, okay. 212 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:51.639 And he went and he got some paper for me, 213 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:54.639 and I noticed on his desk he had something going 214 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:56.679 on in his desk at all of these little pie 215 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:01.960 charts divided into parts. When he came out, he said, 216 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:06.639 I said, what's that young and he said he said, oh, 217 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:08.679 he said, you caught me. I don't tell people about this, 218 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:11.320 but I'm an astrologer and I do this. I do 219 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:15.399 people's charts of celebrities in Holland to make some extra money. 220 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:18.639 And I knew John Well. We were good friends for 221 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:20.840 a couple of years. He was a generation older than 222 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:24.120 I was. He's been a war hero in the in 223 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.559 the resistance press during during the Second World War. And 224 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:31.519 I said astrology. I said, oh, there's a bunch of bullshit, 225 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:35.159 isn't it. And he looked at me square in the eye, big, tall, straight, 226 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:40.240 looked like a retired British colonel, and he said do 227 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:42.720 you think I meant do you think I'm a fool? 228 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:45.799 And I said, well, no, you're drunk, but you've got 229 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:49.320 a fool. And he said, I've been studying this for 230 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:51.759 about twenty years, and I tell you there's something to it. 231 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:55.080 And my next question, of course, was well would you 232 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:58.720 do my horoscope? And he said no, get stuffed to 233 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:02.639 your own. Made a bunch of books, and since anything 234 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:06.440 is easier than writing, I took them home back to 235 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:09.200 my place and I spent the weekend trying to craft 236 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:12.279 my own horoscope and ended up with something that was botched, 237 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:14.840 But there was enough in it. I was not very 238 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:19.720 interested in the predicting, prediction, predictive side of astrology. I 239 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:24.159 was interested in it for its number symbolism, and for 240 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:29.360 its symbolism in general, and for the insistence by the 241 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:32.600 astrologers that it was a sacred science that went much 242 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:37.480 further back than it is credited with going back to. 243 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.840 In other words, you go to a modern science class, 244 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.840 or you're a history class and the subject of astrology 245 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:48.600 comes up, of course your professor will sneer, and he 246 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:52.240 will say, well, this is a Babylonian superstition that was 247 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.519 made rational by the Greeks, but of course we know 248 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.440 better and it's all nonsense. I was intrigued by the 249 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:04.120 notion that maybe it wasn't all nonsense. And then over 250 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:08.440 the course, so with my big mouth, my Palion had 251 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:10.679 managed to keep the secret for the years, but this 252 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:12.200 time we had been four or five years in the 253 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:16.360 visa and he had not told people about this, but me, 254 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:20.639 with my big mouth, I had to tell everybody. And 255 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.399 then I got turned off the predictive side of it 256 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:27.279 when it turned out because everybody wanted their horoscope done, 257 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:29.960 so this was good practice to do all of these things. 258 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:32.480 The women all wanted to be told that they were 259 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:35.840 going to meet the toll dark, handsome stranger, and the 260 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:38.320 men all wanted to be told that they were geniuses 261 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:40.600 and was soon going to come into a million dollars. 262 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:45.240 And I realized that that's all they wanted to hear, 263 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:47.879 and I said, I had no real talent for the 264 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:53.080 predicted side of it. Anyway. Anyway, one of the people 265 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:55.120 on a visa not a close friend, but a friend 266 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:59.879 who was a cafe society at some point seeing my 267 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:05.360 interest vocal interest in astrology, is that I think there's 268 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:07.000 a book that you ought to read. And he gave 269 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:10.720 you a book called A Theory of Celestial Influence who 270 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.559 was written by a man named Rodney Collin. And this 271 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:19.440 was really fascinating. This was exactly was a theory of 272 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:24.840 why astrology could, should, and would work again, not necessarily 273 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:29.440 as a predictive tool, but as a let's say, as 274 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:33.639 a factor within the cosmos, within the cosmology. And it 275 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.159 turned out that Colin was a pupil of ger Jeff, 276 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:43.679 of gi Gerjeff, and gradually, gradually my friend led me 277 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:48.240 into the Gerd Jeff work, and which I've been in 278 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:50.320 since that time, as a lot of years have gone 279 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:54.039 into the Gerjeff work and out of Gerdjeff. Gerjeff is 280 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:56.279 I don't know if you're how many people in your 281 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.440 audience will know about him. You don't want to read 282 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:03.960 Gerdjeff for yourself right off, it's like taking your first 283 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:08.160 driving lesson in a Ferrari. But anybody who's interested. As 284 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.640 a book by one of his most gifted students named p. 285 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:16.960 D Uspensky o U spe n Sky called In Search 286 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:21.640 of the Miraculous, which is a good introduction to Gerjeff's 287 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:26.039 system and effectively what Gerjeff. What attracted me about ger 288 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.559 Jeff initially was that he was the only human being 289 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:34.480 I'd ever read or encountered posthumously he died in forty 290 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:38.720 nine who was as contemptuous of Western civilization as I was. 291 00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:41.599 The difference was that he who had to live in 292 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:44.960 it and I didn't, and it it became it was 293 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.400 very clear to me that I had to learn how 294 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:54.039 to live in it, which I do now with relatives 295 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:58.799 relatively successfully. But anyhow so that led me to the 296 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:02.640 ger Jeff work. Gerd Jeff was talking all along about 297 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:07.440 ancient Egypt and ancient civilizations in general being at a 298 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:10.160 much higher and much more conscious level than our own. 299 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:15.279 That fascinated me. And then we moved from My first 300 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:21.599 wife was an actress, Welsh actress of one eighth Irish 301 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:29.319 and it was named Katie Dolan. And I'd been in 302 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.079 the v some of nine years and it was time 303 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:35.680 to get out. It was getting full of tourists and 304 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:38.599 it was time to go anyway, and I wanted to 305 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:40.839 get in with one of the groups that was practicing 306 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:45.920 this Gird Jeff system. And meanwhile I got I had 307 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:49.640 my novel published at a novel published called Osborne's Army, 308 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:53.559 which one of these days I will republish. Self republished. 309 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:56.640 It was almost a movie on several occasions. England almost 310 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:03.200 didn't anyway. The the editor of my novel was a 311 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:08.559 d Cambridge trained mathematician rat very opposite me in a 312 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:17.279 philosophically atheist rationalist, but we were nevertheless good friends. And 313 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:19.680 one day the subject of astrology came up. We are 314 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:22.559 having a jar in a pub one day one night, 315 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:25.920 and subject came up and he said, well, that's a 316 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:29.519 bunch of Cottswalop, and I said, well, actually it isn't 317 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:32.799 the subject I know a lot about and I could 318 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:36.680 give you if I bring in some documentation. I said, 319 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:39.880 you you could make there's a lot of evidence, some 320 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.640 of it a little of it direct, but a lot 321 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.799 of it indirect, and you could build a case for astrology. 322 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:50.519 And he said, well, I'd like to see that. So 323 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:52.759 I brought in the documentation and he said, well, he said, 324 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.000 I'm not convinced that this is definitely interesting. Would you 325 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:58.240 do a book on it? And my answer is a 326 00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:01.440 standard answer to a question like that, as yell do 327 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:03.559 a book on anything if you'll pay me some money. 328 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:08.119 But it's not quite like that, but close. And so 329 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:09.839 all of a sudden there I was having to do 330 00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:13.400 scholarship with a book called The Case for Astrology, and 331 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:15.559 in doing I was now in a Gerdjeff group. In 332 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:20.119 doing the research for the astrology book, somebody directed me 333 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:24.400 to a novel in two parts, two volume novel called 334 00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:30.599 harbach aht rb Ak. I bought two parts to it 335 00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:35.039 and by a woman named Isha Schwalla Dulubitch, and so 336 00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:39.400 I got this book out. It had been translated from 337 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:43.160 the French. In the one Essotery bookstore in England at 338 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.880 that time still there called Watkins, and started reading it 339 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.720 and it was horrible as a novel, but the portrait 340 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:53.559 of Egypt that it painted. I don't know why people 341 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:55.599 think it's easy to write a novel just because you're 342 00:20:55.839 --> 00:21:00.440 smart and have some good ideas. That easy. Anyhow, kept 343 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:04.920 referring back to the footnotes. Its strange they have footnotes 344 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.759 in a novel, but lots and lots of footnotes referring 345 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.000 to a book called the Tampa de Lum the Temple 346 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:13.839 of Man, written by her husband r Aischwallee de Lubique's 347 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:18.000 the Genius with the unpronounceable name. And finally I couldn't 348 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:20.480 find this book. Of course I went to the British 349 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:23.599 Museum and sure enough they had a copy which had 350 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.240 never been read. Because in those days, I think it's 351 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:30.359 different now. French books don't have the signatures cut. So 352 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:32.559 you get a French book, you had to cut the 353 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:35.200 signatures yourself, which is sort of a rite of passage. 354 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:39.119 It was sort of something viscerally satisfying about cutting the 355 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:41.160 pages of a French book and it was your book. 356 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:47.319 There's Shawl right behind me. There somewhere and anyway before 357 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.119 we were talking about this informed intuition. Once I had 358 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.839 those pages cut, I just sort of riffled through like 359 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.880 this and realized that the sky had done something absolutely amazing. 360 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:02.400 He had reformulated the sacred science of the ancients that 361 00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.319 everybody since the ancient Greeks had been talking about. And 362 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.079 it's complicated subject with bits and pieces, came down to 363 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:14.759 us through alchemy and astrology and number symbolism and neoplatonism 364 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.200 and all of these other disciplines. They're always called the Hermetic, 365 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:22.759 the Hermetic sciences or the Hermetic medic sciences. They call 366 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:28.240 they're the Hermetic sciences through sciences, but they would they've 367 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:32.519 never been put together in a manner that is, let's say, 368 00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:37.160 accessible to our twenty first center of the twentieth century 369 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.799 Western intellects. So I just dropt on my friendship. This 370 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.160 time was through the entry level, but I just down 371 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:46.960 tools and it was all the way the other side 372 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.720 of London from where we lived, and every morning i'd 373 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:52.519 go to the library, we get there at opening time 374 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:55.119 and stay there with the dictionary by my side, fighting 375 00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:59.519 my way through this impenetrable book, you know, learning French 376 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:03.799 along the seem like madness in retrospect. By the time 377 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:08.200 I was done, I really understood Schwaler pretty well. And 378 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.960 I included in the astrology book called The Case for Astrology, 379 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:19.480 which were about to republish, as well, a long chapter 380 00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:22.160 devoted to Schwaler, which really didn't belong. I just felt 381 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:25.119 this was so important and it was not in English anyway. 382 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.079 Astrology book came out. Publishers came to me and said, 383 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.559 would you do a book on Schwaler, And I said, yeah, 384 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:37.559 you bet this because this interested me more than the 385 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:40.559 astrology actually, which is I'm fascinating. But I was not 386 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:44.359 a practicing astrologer, and I didn't see it was not 387 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:48.200 a discipline. You couldn't use it anyhow, or you couldn't 388 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:51.039 use it for your own inner work, let's say. And 389 00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:59.599 so in doing the research for The Serpent in the Sky, 390 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:05.279 that book on Schwaler on Symbolist Egypt, I ran across. 391 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.960 There was one long chapter where Schwalla's talking about the 392 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:13.839 Egyptian in the Egyptian of insistence that their own civilization 393 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:18.160 went thousands and thousands of years back further into the past. 394 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:23.720 And Schwoller put together this scholarly argument, which was very 395 00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:27.400 well done, but it's not science. And at the end 396 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.519 of this long chapter came out with a single line 397 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:33.480 that was, oh, yes, and of course the Great Sphinx 398 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:38.480 of Giza shows unmistakable signs of aquatic erosion. And I 399 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:40.960 realized the penny dropped in the slot, and I realized 400 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:46.359 that that was science, or that should be science. That's geology. 401 00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:49.240