1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 15 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:45,280 and I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:50,039 Speaker 4: We're joined today by Caroline Fraser, author of Murderland Crime 17 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,679 and Bloodlust in the Time of serial Killers, here to 18 00:00:53,719 --> 00:00:57,320 talk to us about her new book and her amazing 19 00:00:57,439 --> 00:01:02,280 research into serial killers and the link industrial pollution. Caroline, 20 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:04,599 thank you for joining us today. We are so thrilled 21 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:05,040 to have you. 22 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 5: Thank you excited to be here. 23 00:01:09,239 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 4: Can you start by telling us a little bit about 24 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,239 your life as a writer and about your previous books, 25 00:01:14,439 --> 00:01:17,439 especially about your amazing book Prairie Fires, which is another 26 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:18,480 one of my favorites. 27 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 5: Oh sure, Yeah. My previous book was Prairie Fires, a 28 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,599 biography of Laura Ingles Wilder, which was pretty heavy and 29 00:01:28,719 --> 00:01:34,480 the history and the ecological connections between her life and 30 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:38,239 the settlement of the Great Plains, and I had a 31 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:43,040 lot of fun working with that material. I had written 32 00:01:43,079 --> 00:01:47,840 about ecology and the environment before, in another previous book 33 00:01:47,879 --> 00:01:51,359 called Rewilding the World, and that's when I started to 34 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,359 learn about some of these connections. And you'll see that, 35 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,280 even though murder Land is obviously a very different book 36 00:01:59,439 --> 00:02:03,200 than I think, you will see if you read it, 37 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,760 a kind of through line of that ecological history between 38 00:02:07,799 --> 00:02:09,039 all three of those books. 39 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 2: One of the things I'm really curious about is you've 40 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,599 been a successful writer for a number of years. The 41 00:02:17,759 --> 00:02:21,919 environment's a bit of a through line, certainly, and I 42 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,680 think social consciousness is part of your writing as well. 43 00:02:26,719 --> 00:02:30,039 But how do we get from there to serial killers? 44 00:02:30,199 --> 00:02:32,120 It's not like you're a true crime author. 45 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 5: Oh that's true. And I think the all I can 46 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,919 say about that is that this is something that I 47 00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:43,439 have been interested in for a really long time because 48 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,960 I'm from the Pacific Northwest, and this question that has 49 00:02:49,039 --> 00:02:52,400 been hanging out there for all these years, of why 50 00:02:52,439 --> 00:02:55,919 are there so many serial killers in the Pacific Northwest 51 00:02:56,599 --> 00:03:01,280 has just been something that has always fascinated me, in 52 00:03:01,479 --> 00:03:04,319 part because when I was growing up there, it was 53 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,919 in the seventies and the whole Ted Bundy thing was happening, 54 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,879 and so that was before anybody knew who that was. 55 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:23,520 I was reading about those disappearances and abductions and murders 56 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,400 in the newspapers and just being both riveted and terrified 57 00:03:28,599 --> 00:03:32,280 by the whole phenomenon. I don't think anybody really knew 58 00:03:32,879 --> 00:03:36,240 what to make of it then, and so this has 59 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,479 been with me for a long time. And after I 60 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,479 wrote Prairie Fires, COVID happened a couple years later, and 61 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,680 I was stuck at home and had a lot of 62 00:03:49,719 --> 00:03:52,800 time to just play around on the internet and look 63 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:57,520 for stuff, and I started looking into this question, in 64 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:02,319 part because I'd already written a few little pieces of 65 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,680 what became the book. I didn't really know what I 66 00:04:05,759 --> 00:04:08,639 was going to use them for, but I really had 67 00:04:08,719 --> 00:04:10,360 started it years earlier. 68 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 4: There are, of course nobody in the true crime space 69 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,199 who isn't familiar with they named Ted Bundy. But there 70 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,560 may be people who are unfamiliar with the glut of 71 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,240 serial killers in the area. And in fact, when you 72 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:27,120 opened the book and you started naming a bunch of 73 00:04:27,199 --> 00:04:29,399 names of serial killers, there were ones that I had 74 00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:32,319 to look up because I wasn't familiar with them. So 75 00:04:32,439 --> 00:04:35,120 for any of our listeners who may be unfamiliar with 76 00:04:35,199 --> 00:04:37,759 ones other than Ted Bundy and the Green River Killer, 77 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,560 can you just run down really quick some of the 78 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,279 array of killers that showed up in the Pacific Northwest 79 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,120 during the seventies and eighties. 80 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 5: Yeah. Sure. On the first page of the book, I 81 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,519 give this list that derived from big feature that ran 82 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,439 on the Seattle Post Intelligencer a while back. And those 83 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,759 are just the guys who came up with or the 84 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,600 press assigned them colorful names like the Beast of British 85 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,879 Columbia or whatever. But yes, in the book, I do 86 00:05:10,079 --> 00:05:14,399 talk about at least a dozen of these guys who 87 00:05:14,439 --> 00:05:19,120 are operating in the Northwest during this period. Bundy, Gary Ridgeway, 88 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,839 the Green River Killer, Warren Leslie Forrest who never got 89 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,800 a name of his own, and most people wouldn't be 90 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,920 able to tell you what he did, but he was 91 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,079 operating at the same time as Bundy, and a lot 92 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,000 of his murders were assigned to Bundy because people just 93 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,439 didn't really know about this guy. There was a man 94 00:05:41,519 --> 00:05:46,800 named William Costin who killed several women south of Seattle. 95 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:52,120 Robert Lee Yates, who many people will remember from Spokane, 96 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:58,360 Jack Owen Spilman, the Third Randy Woodfield, the I five Killer, 97 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:03,639 the Hillside Strangler, ended up in the Northwest after getting 98 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:09,800 started in Los Angeles, Israel, Keys really horrible guy named 99 00:06:09,879 --> 00:06:15,480 Joseph Edward Duncan, serial rapist and murderer. And there was 100 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,399 even a guy who was growing up down the street 101 00:06:18,439 --> 00:06:23,800 from me on Mercer Island named George Waterfield Russell Junior. 102 00:06:23,959 --> 00:06:30,079 It was when I started compiling the evidence for this SERI, 103 00:06:30,439 --> 00:06:33,079 I was shocked at how many there were. 104 00:06:34,199 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 3: I don't understand, Siri, I was shocked. 105 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,959 Speaker 2: Sorry, she's always listening. 106 00:06:49,199 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 4: One of the most common questions that arises in any 107 00:06:51,959 --> 00:06:54,720 discussion about serial colors is whether it is nature or 108 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:56,600 nurture that ultimately forms them. 109 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 3: And I like the fact that you've taken. 110 00:06:58,759 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 4: That question one step further as your basis for murder 111 00:07:01,639 --> 00:07:04,800 Land and have asked the question about whether environmental factors 112 00:07:05,199 --> 00:07:07,639 might have a hand in shaping cereal colors. 113 00:07:08,399 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 3: When did was. 114 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,959 Speaker 4: It gest during COVID that idea came to you or 115 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,319 had it been percolating for a number of years. 116 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 3: No, it really was. 117 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,639 Speaker 5: In the last during COVID, and maybe a couple of 118 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,959 years earlier than that that. I had discovered some links 119 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:31,000 between the stuff that was going on in terms of crime, 120 00:07:31,319 --> 00:07:38,000 especially in the city of Tacoma, and an infamous leads 121 00:07:38,279 --> 00:07:42,240 and copper smelter that was located in Tacoma. And I 122 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,399 had never anybody who's ever been to Tacoma knew that 123 00:07:45,519 --> 00:07:48,240 it smelled really bad, that it was a place of 124 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,279 incredibly heavy industry, and there was this thing called the 125 00:07:52,319 --> 00:07:56,199 Aroma of Tacoma, which everybody joked about because there were 126 00:07:56,279 --> 00:08:01,600 so many factories and refineries and colt mills and all 127 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,079 this stuff. But a few years ago I became aware 128 00:08:05,199 --> 00:08:09,079 that this smelter that was there was known for emitting 129 00:08:09,759 --> 00:08:15,040 tons and tons of lead particulates and arsenic and these 130 00:08:15,079 --> 00:08:21,000 things are not only poisons, but lead is, as you 131 00:08:21,079 --> 00:08:27,240 may know, associated with increased violence and aggression. And I 132 00:08:27,319 --> 00:08:31,000 began to wonder about that, was there any link between 133 00:08:31,839 --> 00:08:35,960 the high crime rate in Tacoma, which it's the city 134 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:41,000 has also been famous for, and these emissions. 135 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:46,879 Speaker 2: I was in the skeptical category initially, and Kristen was 136 00:08:46,919 --> 00:08:49,159 a few steps ahead of me, which happens a lot. 137 00:08:49,879 --> 00:08:53,320 And at first I was like, couldn't you make a 138 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,720 case that it's the rainy weather and too much coffee 139 00:08:56,919 --> 00:09:01,440 and other things that the North pip Northwest is famous for. 140 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,559 But then once you start laying out how bad the 141 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:12,639 industrial pollution was, and there is some significant research into 142 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:19,639 cause and effect between lead exposure and children, young people 143 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:25,679 struggling with behavioral issues and violence, and so once you 144 00:09:25,799 --> 00:09:29,159 start to make your case, I realized maybe I shouldn't 145 00:09:29,159 --> 00:09:30,559 be writing this off so quickly. 146 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that I'm trying to walk the fine 147 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:41,480 line between assigning too much influence to lead but also 148 00:09:41,639 --> 00:09:46,759 pointing out the significant amount of research that already exists 149 00:09:47,039 --> 00:09:55,399 that does associate lead exposure in children with violence, instability, 150 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,639 aggression in young adults when there's a twenty year leag 151 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,879 and it's been demonstrated in many studies that this is 152 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:11,279 true that especially in males, it often expresses itself in 153 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,279 and this is all related to the frontal cortex and 154 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,720 certain deficits that people who have this exposure can show 155 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,759 in the development of their brain and also in their behavior. 156 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,879 But that said, there's a lot of other things that 157 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:35,200 doubtless go into creating these incredibly violent individuals. They're often, 158 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:40,080 as the FBI has always said, there's a history of 159 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:46,399 physical abuse, maybe sexual abuse, even head trauma. You know 160 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,720 something we're seeing a lot now with the attention to 161 00:10:51,039 --> 00:10:55,679 football type injuries that people who have head trauma then 162 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:01,000 can develop aggression in their behavior. You know, any kind 163 00:11:01,039 --> 00:11:06,320 of individual who's had a really tough childhood, maybe grew 164 00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:10,799 up in poverty, maybe was exposed to violence as a child. 165 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,679 The lead exposure on top of it, I think can 166 00:11:14,879 --> 00:11:19,840 maybe hyper put this into kind of hyper drive or whatever. 167 00:11:19,919 --> 00:11:24,039 It can really increase the likelihood that there might be 168 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,399 violence in this individual's behavior. 169 00:11:27,919 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 4: You would reference that there is some research out there 170 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:37,519 about the link between violent behavior and environmental factors. What 171 00:11:37,759 --> 00:11:41,279 material did you find yourself relying most heavily on for 172 00:11:41,399 --> 00:11:43,679 your research as you wrote the book, And one of 173 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,919 my favorite things to do is look at end notes 174 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,200 and bibliographies whenever I read a really interesting book. You 175 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,120 had to have been working with an absolute just density 176 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,519 of material here. How much did you rely on and 177 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,200 how much time did you spend research before you started writing. 178 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 5: Oh, there are a lot of scientific studies out there 179 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:13,240 and papers. There are whole suites of studies affiliated with 180 00:12:13,399 --> 00:12:17,240 certain scientists. I talk about a couple of these guys, 181 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:21,600 Claire Patterson, for example, who was at cal Tech, who 182 00:12:21,639 --> 00:12:25,159 did a lot of the early LED research and really 183 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,559 pointed out that everybody who's born in this modern era 184 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,440 anywhere from World War II to the nineteen eighties was 185 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:40,759 exposed to a significant amount of lead just through leaded gasoline, 186 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,360 which of course was for sale until started being withdrawn 187 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,240 in the mid eighties, but is still around in the 188 00:12:49,399 --> 00:12:54,200 US until the early to mid nineties. So everybody's exposed 189 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,320 to that. If you lived near a smelter, you were 190 00:12:57,399 --> 00:13:01,799 probably exposed to much more. There's a lot of research 191 00:13:01,919 --> 00:13:05,159 that went into that that I looked at. There are 192 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,159 a couple of really great books about the history of 193 00:13:08,279 --> 00:13:12,679 lead in the US. There's a great book about Flint, Michigan. 194 00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:16,440 More recent things about lead in the water and so forth. 195 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:19,759 So I spent a lot of time doing that he said, 196 00:13:19,799 --> 00:13:22,840 how much research do you do before you start writing? 197 00:13:22,919 --> 00:13:27,559 And I did quite a bit before because it was 198 00:13:27,639 --> 00:13:31,120 a pretty steep learning curve for me. I am not 199 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,960 a scientist, not an epidemiologist, and the kind of thing 200 00:13:36,039 --> 00:13:41,960 that I'm writing about is no epidemiologist would ever make 201 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,720 the connection between an individual killer and lead exposure the 202 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:49,879 way that I'm doing. I chose to try and tell 203 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:55,039 a story about this by focusing on certain individuals who 204 00:13:55,159 --> 00:14:01,279 lived in Tacoma. For instance, Bundy grew up Intocoma, Gary 205 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,960 Ridgeway just a few miles north. So to me, that 206 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,279 was what was interesting, was to try to draw that connection. 207 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,639 But of course it's something that most scientists would not 208 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:13,639 be comfortable with. 209 00:14:14,919 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 2: But it sounds like you're comfortable putting out what initially 210 00:14:18,799 --> 00:14:24,039 might feel like a provocative premise and then you actually 211 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,000 your history chops are really showing here when you start 212 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:35,200 to analyze these individuals and the history of their heinous behavior. 213 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:39,840 But you were comfortable with the putting this out there 214 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:46,039 as an interesting and as I said, provocative proposal. 215 00:14:47,919 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 216 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:53,759 Speaker 5: To me, it was the foundation of that was this 217 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,679 map that had been developed in Washington State by the 218 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:03,840 Department of ecollege, which enables you to look up individual 219 00:15:03,919 --> 00:15:10,000 addresses everywhere in Tacoma and in the one thousand square 220 00:15:10,159 --> 00:15:15,799 mile plume of pollution that was produced by this smokestack 221 00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:20,840 at the Esarko Smelter. And the fact that we could 222 00:15:21,279 --> 00:15:26,559 pinpoint exactly where, for example, Ted Bundy lived and how 223 00:15:26,639 --> 00:15:30,320 much lead was in his front yard and his backyard. 224 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:34,720 That made me feel like, Okay, we can take this leap, 225 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,759 even though it is a leap and it is provocative 226 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,559 and I can't prove it. I can't prove that you know, 227 00:15:42,759 --> 00:15:47,480 what Ted Bundy did was related to lead, but I 228 00:15:47,519 --> 00:15:50,879 can certainly point to the fact that we can see 229 00:15:50,919 --> 00:15:53,879 how much he was exposed to I was even more 230 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,799 struck by this with Gary Ridgway, who I think was 231 00:15:57,879 --> 00:16:02,799 exposed in multiple ways, both as a child. As brother 232 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,240 remembered him playing in a pile of copper tailings, which 233 00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:14,799 are completely saturated with these poisons. He grew up just 234 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:19,159 east of SeaTac Airport, and all the jet fuel at 235 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,519 that time was full of lead. He grew up next 236 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:27,240 to two major highways, another risk factor for lead poisoning, 237 00:16:27,679 --> 00:16:31,240 and he worked as an adult for decades at the 238 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:37,639 Kenworth truck plant, painting the cabs of trucks with paints 239 00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:44,000 that involved with So there's a lot there. We can't 240 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:50,519 necessarily make that leap, especially we're a scientist. But I 241 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,480 figured I'll tell the story, let people talk about it, 242 00:16:54,879 --> 00:17:00,360 debate it, and maybe this will create a kind of 243 00:17:00,559 --> 00:17:07,079 better understanding of the kinds of environmental problems we're creating 244 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:08,000 for ourselves. 245 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 4: I mean, you certainly got numbers on your side. I 246 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,480 was just I ended up marking all over the books 247 00:17:13,519 --> 00:17:15,400 I was flipping through while you were talking and trying 248 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,319 to find my highlighted passages. But you're referencing the sheer 249 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,440 numbers here. He said, there are fifty five serial killers 250 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,519 in nineteen forty, seventy two and nineteen fifty two, seventeen 251 00:17:27,559 --> 00:17:30,920 and nineteen sixty, and by nineteen seventy there are six 252 00:17:31,079 --> 00:17:34,319 hundred five, by nineteen eighty seven hundred sixty eight. The 253 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,799 numbers don't lie. That's incredible. It was looking at the 254 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,240 numbers that made me go, oh my god, there really 255 00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:42,279 is something here. 256 00:17:43,079 --> 00:17:48,279 Speaker 5: It's very striking. And the other thing that's really eye 257 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:54,720 popping about those numbers is that rising curve correlates almost 258 00:17:54,759 --> 00:17:59,519 exactly to the rise in violent crime in the US 259 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,839 in the seventies, eighties, and nineties, and then in the 260 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,720 mid nineties, with the removal of leaded gas and the 261 00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:13,079 closure of smelters, all of a sudden, the rate of 262 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,359 violent crime and the number of serial killers drops off 263 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,839 sharply in the US. 264 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 4: And I really liked the fact too that you were 265 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:27,559 able to carry some of this over to Britain as well, 266 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,279 and talked about the fact that the areas that had 267 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,160 multiple serial killers, the Yorkshire Ripper and so on and 268 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,279 so forth, those also were in high industrial areas. I 269 00:18:39,319 --> 00:18:42,359 started reading this and going, holy cow, this has become 270 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,200 a grand unified theory for serial killers, and I love 271 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:47,400 it because it works. 272 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 3: It suddenly made so much sense. 273 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,039 Speaker 4: I was just enthusion about this to my friend justin yesterday, 274 00:18:53,039 --> 00:18:55,160 and he was like, I got to read this book. 275 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,960 This sounds fantastic because he can see it like he 276 00:18:59,079 --> 00:19:00,359 understands it. Yeah. 277 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,279 Speaker 3: I think it really was my blowing. 278 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:07,599 Speaker 5: Interested in the whole lead things. Within the past five 279 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,759 years or something, I've seen people tweeting about it about 280 00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:14,640 the baby boomers and how they're prone to being angry 281 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,599 and flying off the handle and all that sort of stuff. 282 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,920 Because they were all exposed to lead. 283 00:19:22,079 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 4: You use the term crazy wall in your first chapter, 284 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,799 and I we're all familiar with this image of a 285 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,079 wall or a bulletin board or a whiteboard and the 286 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,160 red string and all the connected information, and I love 287 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,319 the image. Did you have a crazy wall while you 288 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:40,960 were writing? 289 00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:42,519 Speaker 3: And so what did it look like? 290 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 5: It must have been to see that I have a 291 00:19:46,759 --> 00:19:53,519 crazy room. It's an entire space. Yeah, I didn't, As 292 00:19:53,559 --> 00:19:55,000 you can say, I don't have a whole lot of 293 00:19:55,039 --> 00:19:58,599 wall space in here. I did start working with maps, 294 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,400 some of which were on line and some folding paper 295 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,319 maps and looking at kind of the connections. But it 296 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,359 was hard to put all this stuff together in one 297 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,559 thing because, for example, that map that I was talking about, 298 00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:19,359 the GIS map that Washington has developed, is so incredibly 299 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,599 complex you can't really print that out. I did include 300 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:29,240 in the book a little snapshot map that shows the 301 00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:33,920 full extent of the smelter plume, but it's really hard 302 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,039 to work with those things in a physical by printing 303 00:20:38,079 --> 00:20:40,559 it out or drawing on it or something. You really 304 00:20:40,599 --> 00:20:43,000 have to use them online. 305 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,839 Speaker 2: As you gathered all this material, then, what was your 306 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:48,440 writing process like? 307 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 5: Yeah, I relied really heavily in this book on a timeline, 308 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,640 on timelines of different decades, which I also did for 309 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,480 Prairie Fires, because when you're writing a biography, of course, 310 00:21:05,559 --> 00:21:10,519 you're proceeding for the most part chronologically, and you really 311 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:13,079 have to keep track of what happened when and where 312 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,519 the person was. And so I had very elaborate timelines 313 00:21:17,559 --> 00:21:22,720 by year, by decade, and those really helped in terms 314 00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:25,759 of doing the kind of day to day writing. And also, 315 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,240 I think one thing I've always found is that when 316 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:34,039 you're writing, all of a sudden you realize, oh, I 317 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,359 don't know this, I don't know this person looked like, 318 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:40,920 or I don't know how to describe this place, or 319 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,839 I'm missing some key piece of information. Then you have 320 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,079 to stop and find that so that you don't get 321 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,880 too far ahead of yourself. So yes, you do a 322 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,359 lot of research at the beginning to try and feed 323 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,079 into what's going to be the narrative, but then as 324 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,279 you go along you're having to do a lot of 325 00:22:04,319 --> 00:22:08,599 additional research, and that was really true with this book 326 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:09,119 as well. 327 00:22:10,079 --> 00:22:12,799 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 328 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,759 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 329 00:22:18,759 --> 00:22:22,559 mindover Murder. So you don't skip you get to that 330 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:25,440 place where you realize, oh, I need more information about 331 00:22:25,599 --> 00:22:29,839 this person or that situation. You don't just skip ahead. 332 00:22:30,079 --> 00:22:33,079 Your tendency is to apply the brakes, stop and then 333 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:34,799 go put your research your hat back on. 334 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, because I think I'm too obsessive, and you can 335 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,720 really go wrong. You can if you proceed without looking 336 00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:51,359 for the additional information that you need, you can get 337 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,920 off the track or make mistakes that you don't want 338 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,920 to have to go back and fix later. Because that 339 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,680 just makes everything more comporable, is what I've found. 340 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 4: So you've spent most of your time here chronically. And Bundy, 341 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,920 were you able to speak to some of the detectives 342 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,640 and people related to the case. Did you have access 343 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,200 to case file information like how much down the path 344 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,400 of true crime and into our neck of the woods 345 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,559 did you have to go to be able to write 346 00:23:21,599 --> 00:23:23,880 this really well? 347 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 5: Yeah. The lead detective in Washington, a guy named Bob Keppel, 348 00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:33,920 had actually died a few around the time I was 349 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,039 starting to think about this, so I didn't have a 350 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,640 chance to talk to him. But fortunately he had written 351 00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:47,119 a great deal about his experience of the working on 352 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,640 the case, his lack of experience, he was actually refreshingly 353 00:23:51,759 --> 00:23:57,720 honest for a detective and an investigator. I found and 354 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,680 he'd written a whole book about interviewing Bundy, ostensibly for 355 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,400 the Green River killer case, but really hoping to find 356 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,599 out more about Bundy's own murders, and I think that 357 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,359 he had probably as good a feel for Bundy as 358 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,960 almost anybody. There was another FBI guy who interviewed him 359 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,200 as well. But I didn't want to do a lot 360 00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:30,599 of investigative research in the sense that I didn't want 361 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,519 the Bundy narrative to completely take over the whole book, because, 362 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,640 for one thing, he's been written about so much, and 363 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,160 I really wanted to write about him in a way 364 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,480 that worked against the glamorization of Bundy. You know that 365 00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:53,640 he's somebody who has been there's so many movies and 366 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,359 TV shows and so forth about him that emphasized that 367 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,519 he was a genius, or people have put him on 368 00:25:01,599 --> 00:25:05,039 a very strange pedestal, and so one of the things 369 00:25:05,079 --> 00:25:08,440 I wanted to do was to cut against that and 370 00:25:08,519 --> 00:25:14,200 really just factually stick to what he did and how 371 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:20,799 he did it, and through that try to get at 372 00:25:21,279 --> 00:25:28,079 the personalities and the sort of strange neurological background of 373 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,640 these guys, because so much of what they do is 374 00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:37,400 almost robotic. It's not. Yes, there is some planning that 375 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,440 goes into it, but there's also just a lot of impulsivity. 376 00:25:41,559 --> 00:25:46,480 They see an opportunity and they take it, and so 377 00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:49,680 I wanted to give it a different view of serial 378 00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:52,279 killers starting with Bundy. 379 00:25:56,759 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 4: Were there ever times when due to the normality, the complexity, 380 00:26:01,319 --> 00:26:03,119 or just the darkness of the case. Were there ever 381 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,160 times that you needed to just step away and be like, 382 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,160 I got to take a couple of days, I can't 383 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:07,839 do this anymore. 384 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,039 Speaker 3: Did you just plow through? 385 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:16,039 Speaker 5: There were certain things that were really difficult to describe 386 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,640 or to write about, especially they're all horrible, they're all 387 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,440 really dark. But the things that involve kids and the 388 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,839 torture of children, those things were really difficult to write about. Fortunately, 389 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,839 there weren't a lot of There were more than I 390 00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:39,759 would have wanted to write about. They were spaced out, 391 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,200 so I didn't have to do that all at once. 392 00:26:42,599 --> 00:26:45,000 But yeah, I mean, there are definitely moments when you 393 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:52,000 I think I'm gonna go take a walk something, I mean, 394 00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:56,319 something where you just really have to change your mindset 395 00:26:56,519 --> 00:27:01,519 because it is very disturbing material. 396 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,839 Speaker 4: Time to go pet a puppy or have a cup 397 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,519 of coffee or something like that. 398 00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah it is, Bill. Did you want to Yeah, 399 00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:18,599 maybe we're with number seven. 400 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, along those lines. It's very striking that you're 401 00:27:25,759 --> 00:27:30,079 perhaps best known for this very successful book on Laura 402 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:39,680 Ingalls Wilder is did it feel like a similar process 403 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,759 for you as a writer dealing with this very heavy material? 404 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 5: If you look at Prairie Fires, I think that you 405 00:27:51,319 --> 00:27:55,279 will see that there's some pretty disturbing material. 406 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 3: In there as well. 407 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 2: It's different, but. 408 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it does begin with an introduction that 409 00:28:01,519 --> 00:28:07,880 describes the Dakota War of eighteen sixty two. Am I 410 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,119 write about that eighteen sixty two? I think so? But 411 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:15,960 which was a horrific event that involved some people call 412 00:28:16,039 --> 00:28:22,000 it a massacre, but like six hundred white settlers were murdered, 413 00:28:22,079 --> 00:28:25,880 and during a short period. It was a huge event 414 00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:29,880 in the life of Wilder, so that she ended up 415 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,799 referring to it a couple of times in the Little 416 00:28:32,799 --> 00:28:33,640 House in the Prairie. 417 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 2: But I feel like that was largely forget that's largely 418 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,559 been forgotten by history. Until you covered it. 419 00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:46,519 Speaker 5: Yeah, in Minnesota, it's very well known, and certainly the 420 00:28:46,759 --> 00:28:51,240 tribes that were involved. It ended in this horrific mass 421 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,960 hanging of a number of Dakota men who were involved 422 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,839 in it, and the hunting down and killing of Little Crow, 423 00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:04,599 the chief that was in charge of it, and was 424 00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:08,680 really kind of horrific chapter in American history, and people 425 00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:12,240 outside of Minnesota often aren't aware of it. 426 00:29:13,599 --> 00:29:14,119 Speaker 4: It was so. 427 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 5: Fascinated by that that I really felt it was important 428 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,359 to include a description of that. And there's a lot 429 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,440 of darker chapters of Wilder's life and her daughter's life 430 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:30,559 as well. They went through a lot lost children. So 431 00:29:31,559 --> 00:29:35,799 I don't think of Laura's life as a kind of 432 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,200 narrative of sweetness and light. It really wasn't, And in fact, 433 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,599 I think the Little housebooks are somewhat darker when you 434 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,000 read them as an adult and when you enjoy them 435 00:29:47,119 --> 00:29:50,200 when you're a kid, and I've done both. I loved 436 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,480 her books as a kid, but was startled I think 437 00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:57,160 when I re encountered them as an adult, with how 438 00:29:57,279 --> 00:30:02,920 much kind of loss and are in those books, It's 439 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,880 maybe not as big a leap as people might think. 440 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 3: I don't want to spoil the book. 441 00:30:11,279 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 4: Because we do want people, of course to read it 442 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,359 and buy it. But can you give us maybe one 443 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,880 or two of the most interesting conclusions that you reached 444 00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:25,359 about the Pacific Northwest serial killer glut that you found 445 00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:27,200 as you researched and wrote the book. If you were 446 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,880 going to highlight it for somebody who wanted the cliff 447 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,119 notes version, what would you say two or three of 448 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,720 the best and most interesting things that you learned are. 449 00:30:37,359 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 450 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,599 Speaker 5: One of the things that shocked me was in looking 451 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,680 really closely at nineteen seventy four, which was the year 452 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:51,119 when Bundy started to really ramp up his activities and 453 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,720 abduct all these women in the area, that there were 454 00:30:55,119 --> 00:31:01,000 at least six serial killers operating in the state Washington, 455 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,000 mainly in that I five corridor. And that to me 456 00:31:06,519 --> 00:31:11,440 was really just a really startling kind of statistic that 457 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,079 I think goes to the suggestion that there really was 458 00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:19,000 something going on in the area at that time. And 459 00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:25,079 another thing that really I found forwhelming was how weird 460 00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:30,119 a lot of these murders are, and murderers that were 461 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:35,480 not just talking about something where somebody's committing a lot 462 00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:39,039 of crimes that got out of hand, or that it 463 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,839 were where there was money involved. These were sexual murders 464 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:50,880 of a particularly grotesque and almost unimaginable kind, many of 465 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,440 them involving necrophilia, and that to me also says something 466 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:04,279 about what was driving this phase of this is referenced 467 00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:08,440 in the subtitle of the book Bloodlust. There does seem 468 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,920 to be something really strange going on here. Not that 469 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,799 there haven't been murders of this kind before. Everybody always 470 00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:20,720 talks about Jack the Ripper, and there are a couple 471 00:32:20,759 --> 00:32:25,119 of other instances from history that involve this kind of 472 00:32:25,359 --> 00:32:31,200 really brutal mayhem and sexual mayhem. But I think we 473 00:32:31,359 --> 00:32:35,240 do have to take another look at this period and 474 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,960 really recognize that these things are off the scale. 475 00:32:41,319 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 4: So I guess here's the sixty four thousand dollars question. 476 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,079 If we looked nationwide, not just the Pacific Northwest, would 477 00:32:50,119 --> 00:32:55,720 you expect to find similar trends in other highly industrialized 478 00:32:55,759 --> 00:32:57,359 areas of the country. If we were to look at 479 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,799 Chicago or Detroit or Saint Louis, for example, would we 480 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,839 see that same uptick. Is there a way to expand 481 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,400 this research out to much bigger than it is. 482 00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 3: Because I really think you might be onto something here. 483 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that you could expand it, and I 484 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:19,279 think you might find more instances of this. About fifteen 485 00:33:19,359 --> 00:33:24,400 years ago, Reuters did a whole series of reports on 486 00:33:25,799 --> 00:33:32,240 lead smelters in lead exposure and pollution in major American cities, 487 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,759 and they did maps GIS maps that are similar to 488 00:33:35,839 --> 00:33:40,640 the one I was using in Washington. For places like 489 00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:47,240 Chicago and Cleveland and Cincinnati and Detroit and Philadelphia and 490 00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:52,000 so forth. All these cities saw a huge ramp up 491 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,880 of production over the period of World War Two, and 492 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,319 you do see a lot of serial killers being born 493 00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:04,000 in that era. So yes, I think you might see 494 00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:06,720 that I was trying to do a little of that 495 00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:11,159 in looking at the city of El Paso, for example, 496 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,599 because El Paso is another city that had a huge 497 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,079 lead smelter right in the middle of the city, and 498 00:34:19,119 --> 00:34:22,719 of course El Paso is really two cities. It's El 499 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,239 Paso on our side of the border and Ceodad Warres 500 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:31,719 on the Mexican side, and so the Warrez got a 501 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,199 huge amount of that lead pollution. You then see a 502 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,119 lot of femicides as they were called in Warres in 503 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:45,039 the eighties and nineties, the sort of wholesale murder of women. 504 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,519 Several hundred women are murdered in that period. It's very 505 00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:53,840 difficult to do reporting on that on what trying to 506 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,440 tease out what was cartel violence versus what was serial killers. 507 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,360 There may have been and three or four serial killers 508 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,239 at work in that area. But we certainly do know 509 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:11,880 that Richard Ramirez, the nightstalker who is famous for all 510 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,280 these murders, he committed in Los Angeles. He grew up 511 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,280 in El Paso, not very far from the smelter. 512 00:35:19,639 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 2: So, taking Kristen's question, and now you've expanded it to 513 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,719 at least include Mexico, would we see these same patterns 514 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:37,360 in heavily industrialized and polluted cities across the globe. 515 00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 4: Yeah. 516 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,079 Speaker 5: There are people who have, I think, begun looking at 517 00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:46,719 this question. One of the people who I talk about 518 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,719 a little bit is the research of the guy who 519 00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:53,880 contributed the graph that's at the back of the book, 520 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,559 and he wrote a paper or a book called Now 521 00:35:58,559 --> 00:36:06,199 I'm Blinking on the Lucifer Lucifer curves Lucifer curves, and 522 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:12,400 he has looked at the history of the UK. For example, 523 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:17,599 there are certain areas of the UK that have many 524 00:36:18,199 --> 00:36:24,400 decades and indeed centuries of association with lead poisoning that 525 00:36:25,039 --> 00:36:29,199 do seem to have a higher number of serial killers. 526 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,280 So yes, I think you could do this research. It's 527 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,280 hard to do it for places like Russia, for example, 528 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,159 which is said to have a city Rostov on Dawn 529 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,519 that has more serial killers than anywhere else and also 530 00:36:43,639 --> 00:36:50,519 has significant pollution because it's hard to access those kinds 531 00:36:50,559 --> 00:36:54,400 of records unless you're fluent in the language. I think 532 00:36:54,440 --> 00:37:01,760 places like China probably have real problem with lead because 533 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,119 they didn't have the regulatory structure that we had the legislation. 534 00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:15,079 There are reports that people became really outraged areas of 535 00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:19,360 the where the population was very angry but lead pollution 536 00:37:19,519 --> 00:37:21,880 and what it was doing to their kids. So I 537 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,760 think they've tried to pull back and do some controls 538 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,159 on their plants. But I have to think that they 539 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,639 have some history of this as well, but we're probably 540 00:37:33,639 --> 00:37:37,880 never going to know about it because those places are 541 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,719 not going to be there's no reporting coming out of 542 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:46,239 their legal system is not like ours. Yeah, I think 543 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,960 you probably could do reporting on this in Europe and 544 00:37:49,079 --> 00:37:54,360 places where you could access records, but maybe not in 545 00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:57,639 areas that are really heavily controlled. 546 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,159 Speaker 2: Do you feel like murder land and could actually be 547 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:09,440 sounding a cautionary note, because I have a concern that, 548 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,519 if anything, we seem to be stepping back as a 549 00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:23,320 country now from environmental concerns and the significant strides we've 550 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,480 made in terms of cleaning up our environment. Now there 551 00:38:26,559 --> 00:38:28,920 seems to be a movement of foot too. Oh, let's 552 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,320 scrap all that stuff. We're not going to have these 553 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,440 kind of restrictions. Do you feel like murderland sounds a 554 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:38,639 cautionary note there? 555 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 5: I certainly hope that it does. One of the things 556 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,039 I just read about yesterday that I found deeply horrifying 557 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:53,840 was the news that the Trump administration is hoping to 558 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,000 roll back regulations on a stusta. 559 00:38:57,159 --> 00:38:58,159 Speaker 2: I read that as well. 560 00:38:58,559 --> 00:39:02,599 Speaker 5: Yeah, for what you know, the company that I talk 561 00:39:02,679 --> 00:39:07,599 about that had the smokestacks in Tacoma and al Paso, 562 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,079 which is a Sarco, the American smelting and refining company. 563 00:39:11,559 --> 00:39:15,280 The reason that they went bankrupt was because of asbestos. 564 00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:21,199 They were mining asbestos in Canada for years and just 565 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:26,239 set it loose on an unsuspecting populace in the same 566 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,559 way that they were setting lead and arsenic pollution loose. 567 00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:33,440 And the idea that we're going to be rolling back 568 00:39:33,519 --> 00:39:40,000 regulations on things that everybody knows are poisonous and caused 569 00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:46,039 all kinds of cancer is just astonishing. The thing about 570 00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:48,920 I'm talking about lead in terms of what it does 571 00:39:49,199 --> 00:39:52,800 neurologically to your brain, but it has all kinds of 572 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:57,440 other effects too. It is believed to be responsible for 573 00:39:57,559 --> 00:40:02,360 a lot of the rise in disease in this country, 574 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,800 and it's associated with als. It can cause all kinds 575 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,400 of havoc with different parts of your bodies. Man, the 576 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,880 idea that we're going to let go of the controls 577 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,280 that we have when we don't even have a fully 578 00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:26,159 operational system that is controlling particular pollution which is now 579 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,880 shown to be causing all kinds of asthma and other diseases, 580 00:40:31,639 --> 00:40:34,280 that's just unreal. I just can't even. 581 00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:38,039 Speaker 2: Believe that, as someone whose older brother, who's a retired 582 00:40:38,119 --> 00:40:43,239 Navy doctor and an epidemiologist by trade. My older brother 583 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:48,639 is now undergoing treatment for stage four lung cancer is 584 00:40:48,679 --> 00:40:54,360 never smoked. They believe that Richard's condition, which is very serious, 585 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,400 is as a result of his service aboard US Navy 586 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,360 ships which were riddled with asbestos back then, and it's funny. 587 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,840 Part of his job was to try to protect his 588 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,440 Navy A Marine Corps personnel from exposure to environmental hazards 589 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:16,519 like asbestos. But as he explained, every time they moved 590 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:22,440 bulkheads or cut pipe, the ship was riddled with asbestos, 591 00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:28,519 and those personnel, including Richard, who was then a ship's doctor, 592 00:41:29,119 --> 00:41:34,880 they were exposed to asbestos. So it the hazard is 593 00:41:35,079 --> 00:41:38,280 very real, and all these years later it catches up 594 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,320 with people like Richard and people he served with who 595 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,320 were exposed to asbestos. The idea that we're going to 596 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,719 scrap regulations and restrictions on something that's already been proven 597 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,920 to have impacted millions of people's lives, it's insane. 598 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 5: It is insane, and it's horrifying. I'm sorry to hear that. 599 00:41:58,119 --> 00:42:03,599 And it just the idea that we have politicized all 600 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,480 these facts that we know about things like asbestos and 601 00:42:08,599 --> 00:42:12,480 are just moving ahead as if it's a political issue, 602 00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:15,760 not a medical issue, is horrifying. 603 00:42:17,639 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one quick thing, and then christ I'll go 604 00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:24,039 back to you. We're at forty seven minutes, so we 605 00:42:24,119 --> 00:42:25,559 have to steer towards the close. 606 00:42:25,679 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, we're I was headed there. 607 00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:30,119 Speaker 4: Hey, Carolyn, There are obviously going to be people who 608 00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:34,960 are skeptical about your claims about the link between lead 609 00:42:35,119 --> 00:42:38,519 and the development of serial killers. What is your response 610 00:42:38,559 --> 00:42:40,679 for the people who are going to push back against 611 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,760 your findings, Because there will be people who will do that, 612 00:42:44,159 --> 00:42:47,360 What would you say to them who say, Eh, I 613 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:47,880 don't see it. 614 00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:54,639 Speaker 5: Yeah, Obviously everybody's entitled to their opinion and their reaction. 615 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,679 It's always fascinating to write a book and to put 616 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,159 it out into the world, and you get all kinds 617 00:43:01,159 --> 00:43:04,760 of different takes, and so it's fine with me if 618 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,400 people don't want to adopt this theory. I wanted people 619 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,320 to know about it because the lead crime hypothesis. I 620 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:18,760 didn't make it up. It existed, right, And I hope 621 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,639 people talk about it. I hope they debate it. I 622 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:26,679 hope they think of things like the whole history of 623 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:33,840 the tobacco industry and how much money that industry spent 624 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,920 to try to control the narrative around We don't know 625 00:43:39,199 --> 00:43:43,519 if smoking causes cancer. There's nothing that really proves that. 626 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:50,519 I would be skeptical. I would encourage skepticism in both directions. Yes, 627 00:43:51,079 --> 00:43:54,840 we can't prove this, and it's okay to talk about that. 628 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,079 On the other hand, there's a lot of really interesting 629 00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:03,079 data that's out that are out there, and I think 630 00:44:03,119 --> 00:44:07,679 that we can start looking at this as a potential problem. 631 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,639 Speaker 4: The book is Murderland, Crime and Bloodlust in the Time 632 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,639 of serial Killers? Caroline, Where can everybody find your book? 633 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 5: All over the place? In bookstores, in Amazon and in 634 00:44:23,159 --> 00:44:27,880 independent bookstores. I always liked people to go chop at 635 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:35,159 their local bookstores as well. I'm online on Twitter, on Instagram, 636 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:41,639 and Blue Sky. My website is Carolinefraser dot net and 637 00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:44,760 there's a lot of links to interviews and so forth 638 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,000 on that site, so if you want to learn more, 639 00:44:48,639 --> 00:44:49,519 just check that out. 640 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 4: The book is fascinating. We can't thank you enough for 641 00:44:53,039 --> 00:44:54,920 joining us today. We really appreciate it. 642 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,039 Speaker 5: Oh, I appreciate it. It's a great discussion. 643 00:44:58,199 --> 00:45:00,280 Speaker 4: Thank you that is going to do helle it for 644 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,519 this episode of Mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much 645 00:45:02,519 --> 00:45:04,199 for listening. We'll see you next time. 646 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 647 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,440 Another Dog Productions. 648 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,320 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 649 00:45:22,679 --> 00:45:25,119 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 650 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,800 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 651 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 652 00:45:33,039 --> 00:45:36,199 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 653 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,960 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 654 00:45:39,039 --> 00:45:40,880 Murders on Facebook. 655 00:45:40,639 --> 00:45:43,679 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 656 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:45,320 Bill Thomas. Five six. 657 00:45:45,800 --> 00:46:12,159 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.