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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 3: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening.
Speaker 4: A Michigan couple's affair leads to true grizzly murders by
Speaker 4: heroin injection. In this true crime account from the acclaimed
Speaker 4: author of Lobster Boy. When Carol giles friend Nancy Billeter
Speaker 4: was found dead, she had been bound, sexually violated, and
Speaker 4: injected with the lethal lethal dose of battery, acid and heroine.
Speaker 4: Detectives in Michigan traced Billeter's death back to Giles and
Speaker 4: her boyfriend Tim Collier. Police also learned that the diabolical
Speaker 4: duel shared another secret. They had murdered Giles's husband, Jesse. Jesse,
Speaker 4: who had died months before Billeter was disinterred and in
Speaker 4: an autopsy proved he had been given a lethal shot
Speaker 4: of heroine instead of his prescribed insulin. Home Bound and
Speaker 4: diabetic Jesse was a heroin dealer. Police determined that Giles,
Speaker 4: who had fed up with taking care of her husband
Speaker 4: and children, along with her lover Collier, had stolen the
Speaker 4: final dose from Jesse's own drug supply. The cops surmised
Speaker 4: that Billeter's death might have been due to her knowledge
Speaker 4: of the couple's plot. In their dramatic trial, Giles and
Speaker 4: Collier turned against each other, but both were actually convicted
Speaker 4: of murder. The book that we're featuring this evening is Needlework, Battery, Acid, Heroin,
Speaker 4: and Double Murder, with my special guest, journalist and author
Speaker 4: Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, and thank you
Speaker 4: very much for agreeing to this interview. Fred Rosen.
Speaker 2: Zupsky. Any time that I get to go on your
Speaker 2: show is a good day, okay, And I really appreciate
Speaker 2: this opportunity. I have to just tell you that, and
Speaker 2: you know, I just have to mention this to everybody
Speaker 2: that's listening, because you have such an incredible listenership across
Speaker 2: the world, and I just want to say that the
Speaker 2: great thing is ladies and gentlemen. This gentleman reads every
Speaker 2: book that he talks about, and not everybody who does
Speaker 2: what he does do that. So I just wanted to
Speaker 2: stay that, okay, and I'm finished, Thank you very much.
Speaker 4: Fred. It's just an honor to read them. I can't
Speaker 4: understand why anybody wouldn't read them in their entirety because
Speaker 4: many many stories, right to the very end, you're not
Speaker 4: quite sure what's going to happen, and that's the beauty
Speaker 4: of it. Let's get to this. This is November fourteenth,
Speaker 4: ninety nineteen ninety seven. You open this in Michigan West
Speaker 4: Bloomfield of Township outside of Detroit, Michigan, and this is
Speaker 4: Genesee County Sheriff Department in Genesee, Michigan as well. Tell
Speaker 4: us about the fishermen and what they find. One day,
Speaker 4: and you introduce a detective Shanleyan So tell us a
Speaker 4: little bit about him and what the fishermen tell them
Speaker 4: that they find. Tell us about what they find.
Speaker 2: Well, what happens is people are just out you know,
Speaker 2: it's in the winter, and you know, uh, they for
Speaker 2: whatever reason, you know, it's the winter, and they go
Speaker 2: out fishing and in a local you know, a local river.
Speaker 2: And what happens. They see a something covered on the
Speaker 2: trail they're on going into this park. It's it's something,
Speaker 2: and they're not sure what it is. And then they
Speaker 2: get closer and they realize it's a human body and
Speaker 2: it's it. And so these people are just shot, as
Speaker 2: anybody would be. And the next thing you know, they
Speaker 2: call the cops. And Kevin Chanlion is a detective for
Speaker 2: the local police department. And you asked me to tell
Speaker 2: you a little bit about the guy. Well, I got
Speaker 2: to tell you that I didn't even you know, I
Speaker 2: was reading the book again, Dan, and I can't believe
Speaker 2: I didn't put this in. But it's what I put
Speaker 2: in was the fact that Shanley in unlike you know
Speaker 2: cops in the movies and detectives and so forth and
Speaker 2: TV shows, he keeps his gun and his desk. He
Speaker 2: only takes it out when he's got to go out
Speaker 2: into the field. And I remember something. I didn't put
Speaker 2: this in. That's exactly what Andy Griffith did and the
Speaker 2: Andy Griffith Show. And I'm looking at this and I'm going, jeep, bred,
Speaker 2: why didn't you mention that? But anyway, The point is
Speaker 2: Shalian gets involved and he's one of these incredible police officers,
Speaker 2: detectives that you see occasionally, I won't say often, but occasionally,
Speaker 2: the kind of person who uses everything in their power
Speaker 2: to bring justice to the dead.
Speaker 4: Right now, you talk about the body that they find
Speaker 4: and Challion and other officers that are at the scene.
Speaker 4: They find this body that was, as they discover, looked
Speaker 4: like somebody was trying to burn the body. They made
Speaker 4: a fuse out of leaves, but the fire stopped at
Speaker 4: the asphalts of the body was not burnt at all whatsoever. Really,
Speaker 4: the police took vehicle impressions in this parking lot and
Speaker 4: this place where this was was next to Flint, Michigan.
Speaker 4: And you write about reference between West Bloomfield and Flint.
Speaker 4: Flint one of the highest per capital murder rates in
Speaker 4: the US. So people have heard about Flint, Michigan. But
Speaker 4: they found this woman with face bloody and bruised. Her
Speaker 4: left eye had been bruised, multiple lacerations around her neck.
Speaker 4: You write that she had a coke spoon around her neck.
Speaker 4: We remember those from the seventies and the eighties. She
Speaker 4: was wrapped up in a bedspread a flowered bedspread, her
Speaker 4: underpants were pulled down, her brawn her top were still up,
Speaker 4: but there were small wounds and it looked like burn wounds.
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 4: So right away this is they have no idea who
Speaker 4: this woman is. Obviously the perpetrators tried to burn the
Speaker 4: evidence and the person. So Shanleyon is now looking for
Speaker 4: somebody like doctor Mueller, the medical examiner, to take a
Speaker 4: look and see what they can determine from that tell
Speaker 4: us where Shanleyon and the doctor Mueller discover about the
Speaker 4: body and its condition and what might have happened.
Speaker 2: To this perstl Well, yes, what they find as far
Speaker 2: as the body, certainly a cursory examination showed that death
Speaker 2: decedent had been beaten a lot, Okay, beaten a lot.
Speaker 2: And then they discovered that there were various injection sites. Man,
Speaker 2: you can't make this up there, and it's true crime
Speaker 2: where we're with with burn marks, okay, over those injection sites.
Speaker 2: But the most important piece of evidence, and it shows
Speaker 2: of course that we're not dealing with criminal masterminds doing this,
Speaker 2: was the fact that she was wearing a T shirt
Speaker 2: that said South Boulevard Station. Okay, you know that's so
Speaker 2: and it was pretty easy for Shanley and to figure
Speaker 2: out Okay, uh that you know, let's look that one up.
Speaker 2: And they found that it was a restaurant south of
Speaker 2: Flint and and that led them to the identification of
Speaker 2: the body. But it still was a long way from
Speaker 2: there to figuring out who'd done it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you talk about right away when they identify the
Speaker 4: person as Nancy billet Her.
Speaker 5: Yes, they soon.
Speaker 4: Talked to a friend named Caroluboy, and so they talked
Speaker 4: to a few people. They talked to Carol, and they
Speaker 4: talked to a person named Skip Selbach. And of course
Speaker 4: they're talking to people at work to see what happened
Speaker 4: that evening. So what did they determine that evening when
Speaker 4: she did go to work and then when she left,
Speaker 4: what did they determine happened behind one time to the other?
Speaker 2: Okay, what they determined was she went to work. She
Speaker 2: was living with at that point temporarily with her friend
Speaker 2: Carol Giles in West Bloomfield Township, Michigan, and she lived
Speaker 2: with her mother, but Carol's husband had died recently, so
Speaker 2: she'd moved in to help her out. Giles had two kids,
Speaker 2: and of course she also had a boyfriend named Tim Collier.
Speaker 2: And so what occurs here is that Nancy Billeterer has
Speaker 2: a very big heart, and so she wants to go
Speaker 2: and help her friend, and that leads to what it
Speaker 2: leads to.
Speaker 4: Now, you talk about Carol's background, talking about fifteen years
Speaker 4: old and just this trouble background. Tell us a little
Speaker 4: bit about her background with her father, oh and the
Speaker 4: allegation she makes against him. And then in light of
Speaker 4: this troubled background at fifteen years old, who does she meet?
Speaker 2: Oh? Boy, you know, I'll tell you something. You know,
Speaker 2: when you read you know, look, when you read this
Speaker 2: stuff and police reports and you talk to the police
Speaker 2: and they give it the info. If you put it
Speaker 2: together and you got a heart, and that's important in
Speaker 2: this work, I feel, then it really can get to you.
Speaker 2: And what happens in Carol Giles's case, she alleges that
Speaker 2: her father had ancested her. I mean, I mean, I
Speaker 2: have trouble even saying it, okay. And what happens is
Speaker 2: she wants to get the heck out of the house
Speaker 2: to do and again this is in Michigan, and so
Speaker 2: she winds up meeting a guy who's oh, I think
Speaker 2: let's see Jesse Giles as I think about nineteen years
Speaker 2: or twenty years older than her. So she meets this guy,
Speaker 2: Jesse Gild who's a and this is relevant because of
Speaker 2: what happens later. He's very overweight, talking girl boy, you know,
Speaker 2: the short guy, not you know, five to six, maybe
Speaker 2: over three hundred pounds, diabetic, okay, but he is basically
Speaker 2: like the father to her she never had. That's what's
Speaker 2: so interesting about this. How she's repeating the pattern of
Speaker 2: going to somebody and this guy is abusive to her
Speaker 2: in various ways. And he's a drug dealer. I will
Speaker 2: also tell you that he's the smallest drug dealer I've
Speaker 2: ever written the pet We can talk about that later,
Speaker 2: but it's a very interesting relationship that way. You know,
Speaker 2: how who's a views It could be a guy who
Speaker 2: makes no different person. You know, you don't have any
Speaker 2: self esteem. It's understandable. So what do you do? You
Speaker 2: try to find a way out? And how does she
Speaker 2: find a way out? She goes with a drug dealer
Speaker 2: who's more than twice their age.
Speaker 4: You also talk about it to become business associates. So
Speaker 4: we just lends you the idea that she's not just
Speaker 4: an innocent bystander in his drug business.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 4: He at the time of his death, he's over four
Speaker 4: hundred pounds, you right, about four hundred and fifty pounds,
Speaker 4: So he's quite sickly and diabetic and inactive, we'll say,
Speaker 4: to say the least. But also that keeping with the abuse,
Speaker 4: that often she prostitutes her out as a favor to
Speaker 4: some of his drug clients.
Speaker 5: So that's part of what Dan, Dan, thank you.
Speaker 2: You know. It's like, sometimes I feel like the naive
Speaker 2: guy in the world when I find out stuff like this.
Speaker 2: I go, I didn't know about this, and that's you know,
Speaker 2: I didn't know that drug dealers would have a woman
Speaker 2: close to them who they would then as prostitute out
Speaker 2: and that's exactly what happened here. And again what's so interesting.
Speaker 2: You know, everybody goes through life with decisions to make. Dan,
Speaker 2: no matter what the hand is, were dealt in terms
Speaker 2: of our backgrounds. Well, she said, okay, I'm gonna marry
Speaker 2: this guy, you know, and she also decided to marry well,
Speaker 2: sheould also mention this guy as African American, and that
Speaker 2: was an affront to allegedly to her father at that
Speaker 2: point in time. So here's a situation where she's basically
Speaker 2: trying to work at her problems and she goes forward
Speaker 2: and doesn't have the skills to do it. You know,
Speaker 2: you should have got You know, that's an interesting one too,
Speaker 2: because there's nothing in the record regarding that I've seen
Speaker 2: how she did in school that would be interesting, you know,
Speaker 2: now that we're talking about it, you know, did anybody
Speaker 2: ever notice anything? You know, did she ever report anything?
Speaker 2: But so you know, I didn't find anything like that
Speaker 2: when I was writing the book.
Speaker 4: Continuing with this, Nancy's mother is contacting.
Speaker 5: The police.
Speaker 4: Of course, got the tough job of knocking on the door.
Speaker 4: It's missus Phillis Burke and they say, listen, your daughter,
Speaker 4: Nancy's been murdered. When was the last time you saw her?
Speaker 4: And as you're writing a book over a sadder part
Speaker 4: of this is tell us a little bit about this
Speaker 4: last thing that they remember that the mother remembers about
Speaker 4: the daughter.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember. I reread the book today, but
Speaker 2: I don't remember all the details except for this.
Speaker 4: There was a problem, right, There was an argument, and
Speaker 4: the last time they saw each other they argued, So again,
Speaker 4: just another the last memory of her daughter was just regrettable.
Speaker 2: An argument argument, Yeah, thanks man, thanks, Yes, they had
Speaker 2: an argument, and you know, you can't you know, I
Speaker 2: can't even imagine what that would be like, you know,
Speaker 2: to lose you know, God forbid losing a child, but
Speaker 2: let alone after having had an argument, you know, and
Speaker 2: they were having problems and so forth. There's never going
Speaker 2: to be any closure. There's never going to be any closure.
Speaker 2: And it points up to me all the lack of
Speaker 2: a better term, the collateral damage in a case like well,
Speaker 2: just like in any case, Dan, I mean the family,
Speaker 2: you know, the family, and you know, and having the
Speaker 2: family having to deal with this stuff, and you know,
Speaker 2: how the heck do you deal with it? I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, I've actually got a situation in my family
Speaker 2: where I feel like somebody cousin of mine was murdered.
Speaker 2: But it's so specious, it doesn't it's nothing. You know this,
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. It's like, you've got a
Speaker 2: very basic situation here. This woman was murdered.
Speaker 4: You talk about Detective Milkie and Edwards and they're talking
Speaker 4: about missus Burke. Now Nancy's siblings, Susan, Karen.
Speaker 2: And Doug.
Speaker 4: They talked to the desetctives and say, yes, she had
Speaker 4: a coke problem. So now the police understand that she
Speaker 4: had the cocaine might have something to do with this,
Speaker 4: but she definitely she has a coke problem. She had
Speaker 4: a child out of wedlock, and this is she tried
Speaker 4: to raise her on her own and she worked hard,
Speaker 4: and she was a waitress. She had been married ten
Speaker 4: years before, and her mother took care of Nancy's baby.
Speaker 4: What eventually police find out from talking to people at
Speaker 4: work is that someone had driven her home. What they
Speaker 4: find out is about again that Carol Giles is Nancy's roommates.
Speaker 4: So they finally find out where she lives, knock on
Speaker 4: the door and they get to talk to her.
Speaker 2: Well, in fact, if I may to interrupt for a second,
Speaker 2: they don't knock on the door. What they do is
Speaker 2: when they found out that Giles was the roommate quote
Speaker 2: unquote man and they you know, it's like in the movies,
Speaker 2: they drove their car right up, you know, behind hers,
Speaker 2: and she was just on her way out, and that's
Speaker 2: when they started talking to her. And that's when they
Speaker 2: started talking to her. And and then and that's you know,
Speaker 2: the beginning of you know what, what the whole plot is.
Speaker 4: It's interesting too that these again when you mentioned that
Speaker 4: these aren't the brightest criminals around, while the police take
Speaker 4: advantage of that their lack of experience, especially Carol's lack
Speaker 4: of experience with the law, so they taught. They ask
Speaker 4: her if if she has any drugs or guns, and
Speaker 4: she does not have to answer questions, she does not
Speaker 4: have to submit to a search, but if she volunteers
Speaker 4: this information, she volunteers and offers to be and it
Speaker 4: replies that she yes, she will be searched, and that's
Speaker 4: certainly what the police will do. So what do they
Speaker 4: find on her person?
Speaker 2: Oh? Well, they find drugs. What do you call it?
Speaker 2: The crack? I gotta tell you, Dan, that this was
Speaker 2: an education. I don't know anything about back so you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the the most I've ever done
Speaker 2: is weed. But you know, you know, it's all about crack, okay.
Speaker 2: And oh and then they also find, uh, she's got
Speaker 2: a gun. Mm hmm. She's got a gun. And and
Speaker 2: then when they in the they find it in the car,
Speaker 2: they find uh, what is it? Battery aster? Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And it's like, excuse me, you know, what's that doing here?
Speaker 2: So you know, they find some stuff that none of
Speaker 2: it makes any you know, no, none of it makes
Speaker 2: any sense. I mean. And and of course I'm sure
Speaker 2: that you know, I didn't get into it at the time,
Speaker 2: but I'm sure she didn't have a license to carry
Speaker 2: the weapon, you know what I mean? And neither did
Speaker 2: he her boyfriend, Collier, who had an automatic that he
Speaker 2: usually kept in his waist band. You know, to me, Dan,
Speaker 2: what it what it what? What it says to me
Speaker 2: is how you know? On one hand, you can have
Speaker 2: people like Tim Collier who grow up for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: it's bad guys. On the other hand, you get people
Speaker 2: like Carol Giles who get abused and then what is
Speaker 2: that lead You're making wrong decisions as an adult that
Speaker 2: leads to murder?
Speaker 5: Whoa You know, we will, we will, we will talk
Speaker 5: about this.
Speaker 4: But I also think that there's an incredible and this
Speaker 4: won't be a surprise to anybody, but this is there's
Speaker 4: an incredible reaction to these drugs. I think that I
Speaker 4: think a person into the froze of addiction could leave
Speaker 4: their children like these people do for hours and.
Speaker 5: Hours of people to go do what they need to do.
Speaker 5: But that is just one of the things.
Speaker 4: I mean, Carol talks about her children later like she's
Speaker 4: a caring mother, but that's not the case. That's just
Speaker 4: a that's a story. But let's get back to let's
Speaker 4: get back to this with Carol, because it really comes
Speaker 4: down to the unsophistication, the lack of sophistication of Carol
Speaker 4: and some and savvy police as well, because I got
Speaker 4: to say, there was a point here and it becomes
Speaker 4: an issue later where she may ask for a lawyer,
Speaker 4: she may ask for a lawyer, and all of this
Speaker 4: would go away, and all this information about Tim and
Speaker 4: Nancy and what really happened wouldn't happen. And then they ask, well,
Speaker 4: you can have a lawyer, or you could talk to
Speaker 4: a detective. Oh Man post just a little bit about
Speaker 4: this little bit of wordplay to be able to comfort her,
Speaker 4: this strategy, to be able to get the information they
Speaker 4: needed to get from her.
Speaker 2: Do you know what This is the reason why whenever
Speaker 2: I do an interview with you, I have to read
Speaker 2: the whole book again because otherwise I'm not prepared. And
Speaker 2: I and I of course I you know, I just
Speaker 2: read that again and basically what we're saying here is
Speaker 2: that they needed to know what she was thinking. Asked
Speaker 2: the question again, I just got off track for sick,
Speaker 2: Ask the question again.
Speaker 5: They have they have a dilemma.
Speaker 4: There is talk, you know, even though they've coaxed her
Speaker 4: in this interview to get quite a bit of information,
Speaker 4: at some point she has the opportunity to pick a
Speaker 4: lawyer and they pose a question to her to get
Speaker 4: her not the lawyers. Pretty ingenious, very simple, tell us
Speaker 4: about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what happens is, thank you. What happens is because
Speaker 2: I tend to get off track. That's where you come
Speaker 2: back and getting on track. What happens is every time,
Speaker 2: every time a person it turns well, it turns out that,
Speaker 2: at least in Michigan, anytime they interview with suspect, they
Speaker 2: give them their rights. So every single time they do that,
Speaker 2: and because the individual is interviewed a number of times,
Speaker 2: it's not uncommon. Well, what happens here is she Carol Giles,
Speaker 2: requests a lawyer. Now, once you request a lawyer in
Speaker 2: the United States dates the interrogation is supposed to stop
Speaker 2: and you can't ask them any more questions. Well, the
Speaker 2: detective in this case says, well, he says, uh, we
Speaker 2: can get you a lawyer, but which we can. Also
Speaker 2: we also have the detective. You can talk just right
Speaker 2: outside over here, and she says, okay, I'll talk to
Speaker 2: the detective. It was an absolutely brilliant piece of police work,
Speaker 2: didn't violate the suspects rights, and then she wound up
Speaker 2: talking to the detective and gave some interesting information about
Speaker 2: what was going on.
Speaker 4: Now, Carol says that night, she right away is telling
Speaker 4: police a story, and the police just have a sense
Speaker 4: that it's not complete story, there's something off with it.
Speaker 4: But the story she has is pretty horrifying. Is that
Speaker 4: Nancy got her home around eleven PM that night, and
Speaker 4: Nancy and Tim went to the basement and they smoked
Speaker 4: some crack and Tim was upset with Nancy at burglary
Speaker 4: had happened while Tim and she were in California on vacation.
Speaker 4: So Tim is accusing her of stealing a VCR and
Speaker 4: apparently she says, first off that Nancy's called someone on
Speaker 4: the phone about one thirty am and then the guy
Speaker 4: picked her up. But they know that there's more to
Speaker 4: this story. Obviously, where they've searched the Carol's car, she
Speaker 4: has a Cadillac, and she has a sable and they
Speaker 4: and then again like you had mentioned, they find this
Speaker 4: battery acid, and they find a handgun and then they
Speaker 4: find they find her driver's license under the driver's seat.
Speaker 4: So there's more to the story, and she talks more.
Speaker 4: They keep pushing her for more information.
Speaker 2: Yes, they do. And actually you're making a very very
Speaker 2: very good point, which is and I didn't say this
Speaker 2: in the book, but you're making a good point, which
Speaker 2: is what they're doing here is separating or trying to
Speaker 2: separate the two suspects who they know are involved, but
Speaker 2: they're trying to separate them emotionally so they can get
Speaker 2: the truth out of one, at least one of the suspects.
Speaker 2: Because one thing they know for sure, they know that
Speaker 2: Collier is a really bad guy. And it isn't so
Speaker 2: much the guy's record or it's the vo vibes. Okay,
Speaker 2: it's the vibes and all of the information that we've
Speaker 2: discussed regarding Carol Giles's background. The police had all this information,
Speaker 2: so they knew exactly what they were dealing with, you know,
Speaker 2: they knew exactly what they were dealing with, and you know,
Speaker 2: so it was well, it was a challenge to put
Speaker 2: it all together. They met the challenge.
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Speaker 4: While they have her in costady, of course they're going
Speaker 4: to look for Tim Collier.
Speaker 5: And they do find him.
Speaker 4: And of course, again the unsophisticated prisoners that they are,
Speaker 4: they they give they read him her statement, Carol's statement,
Speaker 4: and he doesn't say anything, and he has an ability
Speaker 4: to lawyer up, which would have been probably a super
Speaker 4: smart idea.
Speaker 2: And yet what does he do, as I recalling, makes
Speaker 2: a statement.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and of course, as you allude to in the
Speaker 4: description of synopsis, of course he tries to blame. He thinks, jeez,
Speaker 4: I'm gonna spend there is no death penalty here, but
Speaker 4: I'm gonna spend the rest of my life in prison.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna try to get in front of this right
Speaker 4: and put the blame on Carol.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we should explain that to the
Speaker 2: listeners that Michigan, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the
Speaker 2: states that got rid of the death penalty. I wrote
Speaker 2: about it in my auntlass of crime, and I want
Speaker 2: to say it's at least about one hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: years ago, you know what I mean. So they don't
Speaker 2: have the death penalty, folks, but what they do have
Speaker 2: is a thing they call natural life. And so in
Speaker 2: a situation like this, what would what would happen is
Speaker 2: if the end of if the if the bad guy
Speaker 2: and the girl are convicted, they not only go to
Speaker 2: jail for the rest of their lives, they'll never get
Speaker 2: out in for all. It's natural life, that's it. They're
Speaker 2: throwing the key away, folks. So this is this is
Speaker 2: it's a big thing. You know, it's a big thing.
Speaker 2: And of course both defendants are going to go against
Speaker 2: each other because you know, they want to get a
Speaker 2: leg up if there's some way to get a leg up.
Speaker 2: Though actually, as we're talking about it right now, I
Speaker 2: realize there's no way to get a leg up on
Speaker 2: any of this stuff. I mean, look at what they're
Speaker 2: charged with. They're charged with murder one. You know, Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's no there's no negotiating here. There's no negotiating. And
Speaker 2: there's something else I should I should also mention, which
Speaker 2: I didn't talk about in the book. I discovered this
Speaker 2: much later, Dan. You know, most most times of looking
Speaker 2: at the American criminal justice system, usually you know, you say, okay,
Speaker 2: the North is liberal, the West is liberal, or you know,
Speaker 2: the west coast whatever in the South is conservative. Blah
Speaker 2: blah blah. You know, well, here's a fact, Michigan is
Speaker 2: a very conservative place. So that's very very important in
Speaker 2: a situation like that like this, where you're talking about
Speaker 2: individuals or about to come up on chargers of murder
Speaker 2: one uh and not not murder one for two individuals,
Speaker 2: two individuals, you know, I mean, which that's a lot,
Speaker 2: I think, so.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. What we talked about, what you write about in
Speaker 4: the book too, is that you Nancy moves in on
Speaker 4: the premise that she's helping out her friend get over
Speaker 4: the grieving of her husband that died by natural causes
Speaker 4: of a heart attack. So she's reeving and moving in.
Speaker 4: But shortly after Jesse's death, her husband's death, Tim moves
Speaker 4: in as well. And in the description in the further interviews,
Speaker 4: we're hearing more and more. We will talk about Tim's.
Speaker 5: Interview and what he has to say too.
Speaker 4: But Carol starts talking about how as she's being pushed
Speaker 4: by the detectives on how this came to be. That
Speaker 4: was what made Tim so angry. And we also find
Speaker 4: out that the reason there was a lot of this
Speaker 4: trouble is because they went to California. She babysat for
Speaker 4: them because she owed Tim a couple of odds of
Speaker 4: dollars for drugs, so they thought this would be a
Speaker 4: good way. And then while she was while they were away,
Speaker 4: she got they got a call from her and and
Speaker 4: while there's been a breaking enter and when they got back,
Speaker 4: there was one piece of evidence. In their mind, it
Speaker 4: proved that she was a thief. And it was shaped
Speaker 4: in a coke bottle. Tell us about this, it was
Speaker 4: quite important murder weapon.
Speaker 2: Wow, oh boy, Well there was a piggy bank shaped
Speaker 2: like a coke bottle. Now, Nancy Billeger claimed that somebody
Speaker 2: had broken in and stolen some stuff. Well, and when
Speaker 2: Carol and Tin came back from the West Coast jaunt,
Speaker 2: they discovered. Carol discovered the piggy bank in Nancy's car
Speaker 2: and she's going, what the heck is this doing here? Well, later,
Speaker 2: ron boy, it becomes a murder weapon. Carol will eventually
Speaker 2: use it to beat Nancy with which is linked forensically,
Speaker 2: which of course is you know, which I always find interesting,
Speaker 2: by the way, I can't you know. I love it
Speaker 2: when they can do that stuff. You know, it's like
Speaker 2: it's almost like watching a true crime TV show and
Speaker 2: it's real, you know, but you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 2: and and but but but this is oh man, uh yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's a murder weapon. And what's very interesting about that,
Speaker 2: oh man, I'm going to reminded me, is that when
Speaker 2: the detectives are looking at what might have been used
Speaker 2: as a murder weapon, that is, Nancy was beaten face
Speaker 2: by et cetera, and the the the the the bank
Speaker 2: comes up the piggy bank. When Carol gives a confession
Speaker 2: to the cops regarding finding the piggy bank, okay, well,
Speaker 2: what happens is one of the detectives, I'm not I'm
Speaker 2: not sure one of the detectives, Messine. I think it's Messina.
Speaker 2: What he does is he goes back and he looks
Speaker 2: at the crime scene photos because nobody saw that, nobody
Speaker 2: knows where this bank is. And you know what he finds.
Speaker 2: He finds it's it's it's in this bookcase. And they
Speaker 2: go to the house the murder scene. They get that,
Speaker 2: they get it, and they test it, and you know,
Speaker 2: next thing, you know, they've got themselves.
Speaker 5: One of the murder weapons.
Speaker 2: Now, it's very interesting. It was a really terrific piece
Speaker 2: of I think it was a terrific piece of detective work.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean. I mean, you know that
Speaker 2: doesn't happen very often in real life, you know.
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Speaker 5: Now we will last left off.
Speaker 4: The police have Carol in custody. They have Tim in custody,
Speaker 4: and they're hearing a story of Tim's paranoia. Tim's homophobic
Speaker 4: rants that Nancy and Carol are lovers, and he just
Speaker 4: knows it, and he tries to arrange a threesome but
Speaker 4: it doesn't work out, and he is angry, and he
Speaker 4: looks like he's angry. He tells Carol about and of
Speaker 4: course he's leaving a story now that she was so
Speaker 4: frightened by this person, she had to do all of
Speaker 4: his bidding and all of his orders he had to obey.
Speaker 4: But she talks about how he talks about killing seven
Speaker 4: people in his background, being associated with some gang in
Speaker 4: Detroit where he gets his drugs from, and offering to
Speaker 4: kill her father for the molestation. Yes, but then we
Speaker 4: hear about Jesse Giles. Now what do we hear about
Speaker 4: Jesse Giles and Nancy's involvement and Tim's involvement.
Speaker 2: Well, this will eventually come at as the case proceeds
Speaker 2: toward trial. It's funny. It's just saying this. I was
Speaker 2: saying to myself, do I told us to Dan or not?
Speaker 2: But as I was reading the book again and I
Speaker 2: hadn't read it in a long time, Okay, I was
Speaker 2: reminded about how much I was influenced growing up by
Speaker 2: the by the novels of Raymond Chandler, who created Philip Marlowe,
Speaker 2: the archetypal Hollywood detective. He used to he used to say, uh, Chandler,
Speaker 2: when the plot lags, always have a man come through
Speaker 2: the door with a gun. Well, you know, as I'm
Speaker 2: getting into this, you know, and I'm taking a look
Speaker 2: at at this whole thing. What's so interesting to me
Speaker 2: is that Collier keeps bragging about this quote unquote gang background,
Speaker 2: like you said, where he killed seven people. Okay, there's
Speaker 2: no evidence of this. I didn't find anything, you know,
Speaker 2: in the way of evidence about whatsoever. On the other hand,
Speaker 2: Giles his girlfriend. When the time came to make a
Speaker 2: decision about killing two individuals and Jesse Giles her husband,
Speaker 2: she didn't hesitate. What she did was she spoke to
Speaker 2: Tim about it, and because she was already having an
Speaker 2: affair with him and what she was having problems with
Speaker 2: Jesse for whatever reason. And you know what, as we're
Speaker 2: talking about it, I'm thinking to myself, this is a
Speaker 2: certain this is displacement. Psychologically, she really wanted to kill
Speaker 2: her father, Well, she decided to kill her husband, who
Speaker 2: essentially was the same person. How does she do it?
Speaker 2: Tim gives her some heroin, puts it into a syringe,
Speaker 2: because because Jesse is a diabetic, she gives him injections.
Speaker 2: So she gives him a hotshot, you know, and the
Speaker 2: next thing, you know, he dies. You know, Well, it's
Speaker 2: not so fast as that. She you know, he doesn't
Speaker 2: die immediately, but she winds up talking to Tim about
Speaker 2: it on the phone and so forth. Tim will later
Speaker 2: say that he had nothing to do with any of this,
Speaker 2: which is a bunch of crap. But they talk about it,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's very clear that what you have
Speaker 2: here is two individuals conspiring to murder a third individual,
Speaker 2: which is exactly what happens.
Speaker 4: You introduce a detective that's important to this case. Obviously,
Speaker 4: this detective healthon and so he is looking and he
Speaker 4: realizes too that he talks to everybody, talks to Jesse's
Speaker 4: sister who has the children. Her name is Matty Marian.
Speaker 4: He is single handedly getting to the truth with these
Speaker 4: two people, and with his investigation with other people that
Speaker 4: have information as well. They turn up a person of importance,
Speaker 4: a name Up Church, his uncle, Tim's uncle. Tell us
Speaker 4: about Tim's uncle and what they get from him.
Speaker 2: Well, Tim's uncle, Sim's uncle is over fled and actually
Speaker 2: it turns out it's a step uncle, but whatever, And
Speaker 2: what happens is sim Is hangs out there and he's
Speaker 2: and he hangs out there with Carol in the middle
Speaker 2: of trying to get disposed of Nancy Billeger's body. And
Speaker 2: what happens is Tim goes to a gas station at
Speaker 2: some point before he gets to his uncle's and he
Speaker 2: fills up a jug with you know, one of those
Speaker 2: ten get down gallon jugs with gasoline, and he's also
Speaker 2: got some lighter fluid. What happens is when they when
Speaker 2: after they try to dispose of the Nancy's body by
Speaker 2: putting it into this park, pouring gasoline on her, and
Speaker 2: then and then a trail of twigs and and it
Speaker 2: was pretty stupid, a trail of twigs and dead leaves
Speaker 2: which they tried to light up with the lighter fluid
Speaker 2: and so forth, which didn't work. What Tim does is
Speaker 2: he takes the lighter fluid after that and the the
Speaker 2: the other stuff and takes it over to his uncle's house,
Speaker 2: the lighter fluid in the gasolene, that what's left in
Speaker 2: the cannon. He leads it as uncles and eventually the
Speaker 2: police wind up talking to our church about it, and
Speaker 2: he tells him the whole you know, he doesn't have
Speaker 2: very much tell him, but he tells him that, you know,
Speaker 2: Tim had left the stuff there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, it's interesting too. There's a statement where they
Speaker 4: say that they have some information that he's involved with
Speaker 4: the murder, and he says, only the gas is evidence.
Speaker 4: I could just imagine him saying, you know, like not
Speaker 4: and again another sharp legal mind telling the police what
Speaker 4: evidence is you know?
Speaker 2: So oh man, Yeah, I mean it's you know, just
Speaker 2: as we're talking, I'm really realizing something. What we're talking
Speaker 2: about here. This has nothing to do with you know,
Speaker 2: with race. You were talking about a criminal underclass in
Speaker 2: this country, and that's who these individuals were and are
Speaker 2: that's it. You know, it's a criminal because when as
Speaker 2: I'm reading the you know what I wrote, and I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: how do people do this stuff? Well, you're bad guys,
Speaker 2: you know. You know it's and again you take a
Speaker 2: look at Carol Giles. This is a situation where you
Speaker 2: actually have in the input, you actually have background on
Speaker 2: how a murderer grew up. That's pretty rare, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. And then that's why the cops were
Speaker 2: very very good and documenting everything. Damn, I mean, and this,
Speaker 2: you know this doesn't happen, you know in a lot
Speaker 2: of places. They were very very cooperative. And that again
Speaker 2: it's the years since cops had been that cooperative in
Speaker 2: a case with me.
Speaker 4: Right now, you talk about to get proof of the
Speaker 4: heroine in the insulin by exooming Jesse's body. Yes, so
Speaker 4: they have that information. They've both incriminated themselves, so they're
Speaker 4: both guilty of murder. But Tim's story sounds a whole
Speaker 4: lot less believable and isn't consistent with forensic evidence, whereas
Speaker 4: Carol's is. In this investigation and just at this trial
Speaker 4: again it looks like what possibly can be the motive
Speaker 4: because even the police figured this can't be all of
Speaker 4: the motive for the torture, that this Fancy Billet injured.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well yes, yes, see what and that's very
Speaker 2: yeah what they really Oh yeah, yeah, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2: That's the real point of this, which is what the police,
Speaker 2: the prosecutor rather feels and makes clear to the jury,
Speaker 2: is that Nancy was again living with Giles and Collier
Speaker 2: for a while before she was murdered, and the police
Speaker 2: and the prosecutors make the argument that she overheard them
Speaker 2: talking about why Billet he had to die. I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: not Billet, I'm a boy, I'm sorry. She overheard them
Speaker 2: talking about about Jesse, the fact that they had killed Jesse,
Speaker 2: and the point is that they felt they couldn't have
Speaker 2: any and timily said, you don't leave any witnesses I
Speaker 2: mean she said that over and over talking about him.
Speaker 2: So the point is that that she Nancy had to
Speaker 2: die because she'd overheard a conversation where they talked about
Speaker 2: killing Jesse Giles.
Speaker 4: That was it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's exactly what they presented to the jury,
Speaker 2: and the jury agreed and convicted them.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: You talk about that they had sort of a unique
Speaker 4: thing I haven't seen before where they have two trials,
Speaker 4: two juries, right, and making a decision at the same
Speaker 4: time the two separate juries. So too, in a sense,
Speaker 4: two separate trials Carol testify and later Tim testifying. Interesting too.
Speaker 4: Of course, it's very dramatic in the courtroom. You say
Speaker 4: that Nancy's relatives walked out of the courtroom at some
Speaker 4: point just because of the horrific nature of the description
Speaker 4: of the wounds and her treatment overall some of the testimony.
Speaker 4: They couldn't handle it, could they.
Speaker 2: Well, no, they couldn't. And I also have to tell
Speaker 2: you that in doing the research in the book and
Speaker 2: the interviews, at least one of Nancy's sisters accused me
Speaker 2: of making money off of her dead sister because I
Speaker 2: was writing a book about it, and that it's the
Speaker 2: first time it's ever happened to me, Dan, And I
Speaker 2: told her, I said, what's the difference between what I'm
Speaker 2: doing and what the Detroit Free Press and the local
Speaker 2: media does. You know? It was really interesting, you know,
Speaker 2: but I knew, of course that the family was just
Speaker 2: of course totally traumatized by what just occurred. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is yeah, I mean, you know, and I again,
Speaker 2: this particular case really affected me. And one of the
Speaker 2: things I've realized is I read it again, is you
Speaker 2: know what, anytime, you know, I won't take on a
Speaker 2: case unless it affects me emotionally. It's got to get
Speaker 2: to me, you know, it's got to get to me.
Speaker 2: And this did. And I think that's why, you know,
Speaker 2: I really got into it.
Speaker 4: What I find out of this at the trial and
Speaker 4: peril statements that obviously every criminal, every killer, every perpetrator
Speaker 4: tries to put themselves in a little better light. But
Speaker 4: no matter how much he can put herself in a
Speaker 4: better light, it doesn't make her look good at all.
Speaker 4: It makes her look horrible. She talks about not really
Speaker 4: you know, not making a big deal of the theft
Speaker 4: in the burglary, and yet when her enraged boyfriend Tim
Speaker 4: is saying do you believe this woman? And she knows
Speaker 4: she has a gun, He has a gun now, and
Speaker 4: he's been talking about doing something to her. And again
Speaker 4: so she writes, I think this and genuinely how much
Speaker 4: she wants to avoid this. But yet he asked her,
Speaker 4: what do you do believe her? And well, no, I
Speaker 4: don't believe her. I don't believe you, and then she
Speaker 4: strikes her her friend. So almost everything, as much as
Speaker 4: Tim is a horrifying low life, you know, paranoid I
Speaker 4: want to be badass, would say as horrible and horrific
Speaker 4: as Carol's attitude. And it's like you write in part
Speaker 4: of this book, you say you've never worked the case
Speaker 4: where you had so much detailed information provided to you meeting,
Speaker 4: what they said, what they did, every every graphic detail
Speaker 4: is in here, and this woman provided it.
Speaker 2: You know what I'll be I'll be very frank with
Speaker 2: you and with with the listeners. You know, I'm reading
Speaker 2: this and I'm going, gee, this would make a really
Speaker 2: good movie. But seriously, there's a lot of there's a
Speaker 2: lot of graphic detail. And again the reason for that
Speaker 2: is because the police officers Helton, Shanley and Messina, they
Speaker 2: were in straordinarily open and helpful, and you know I
Speaker 2: lucked out, you know, I just lucked out with that.
Speaker 2: I mean I realized that now and they were just
Speaker 2: so helpful with this. And you know it's because I'll
Speaker 2: tell you. You know, as I'm reading today, I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: you know, she's got two kids, Carol Childs, and I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: she wonder what happened to those kids? You know, it's
Speaker 2: it's yeah, I don't know. I haven't looked it up,
Speaker 2: you know, but maybe I will, you know, because now
Speaker 2: they're adults.
Speaker 4: It is also incredible the conversation did you have in
Speaker 4: here as well when she talks about injecting the heroine
Speaker 4: into her obese husband's body and he realizes, he says,
Speaker 4: what did you put in that insulin? So with another
Speaker 4: remarkable thing, and this is not the only story, but
Speaker 4: this is a really prime example of how sniveling these
Speaker 4: people are. You know, they want to kill somebody, They're
Speaker 4: they're badass, but they got to sneak up and use
Speaker 4: all forms of deception that's within their grasp and then
Speaker 4: watch these people slowly die as a result of what
Speaker 4: they've done.
Speaker 2: And Carol did it twice I'm sitting here and I'm
Speaker 2: not in vociferously. It is incredible. You know, these these
Speaker 2: are sniveling cowards, you know, they really are. They're awful people.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know again, it's like, okay, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure you know you've talked to people
Speaker 2: who've been insisted. You know we've you know, we both
Speaker 2: talked to people. It's not an uncommon crime. Well that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you become a double murderer, you know, and
Speaker 2: especially bad go ahead, no, no, no, go ahead? What
Speaker 2: do I know?
Speaker 4: I think it seems to be the again, it's these
Speaker 4: it's the nature of again, not an inanimate object, but
Speaker 4: the people believe that they're completely addicted to this drug
Speaker 4: and will do anything. You can see the effect of
Speaker 4: not grasping reality at any point for this woman, for
Speaker 4: this Carol woman, I mean, it just seemed to be
Speaker 4: an altered reality for her her life. And then when
Speaker 4: police came about, I mean, they use some charm to
Speaker 4: be able to get her to talk. But it's not
Speaker 4: like other cases didn't seem to be certainly mentally ill
Speaker 4: per se. But it is incredible the effect of the
Speaker 4: drug and then the lacks of daisil sort of attitude
Speaker 4: about everything after that, it seems like it just bore
Speaker 4: a hole in this woman's soul.
Speaker 2: Dan, you know, you're getting into something that I hadn't
Speaker 2: really thought about, and you just reminded me of something,
Speaker 2: okay about the use of that drug. Like I said earlier,
Speaker 2: you know, I said, well, you know, the most the
Speaker 2: worst I've ever done is is is it not worse?
Speaker 2: But you know, smoking weed? But I did one time
Speaker 2: in California. I did one time what do you call it?
Speaker 2: Inhale cocaine? Okay, right? And I turned around to the
Speaker 2: person who gave it to me and I said, well,
Speaker 2: I don't feel anything different except I want to go
Speaker 2: downstairs and drive my car like Jim Rockford and the
Speaker 2: Rockford Files and turn it around real quick. And this
Speaker 2: guy said, Fred, You're not going to do it. That's
Speaker 2: my point. It's like when you're you know that you know,
Speaker 2: you lose control, you lose control, and you take this crap,
Speaker 2: you know, and you know you can you can try
Speaker 2: to make an argument if you're a defense lawyer that
Speaker 2: the person's under the influence, but it ain't gonna work,
Speaker 2: you know. And they didn't do that in this case.
Speaker 2: Thank god.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they've both incriminated each other, and everything they said
Speaker 4: just reinforced in forensic information and circumstantial evidence that they
Speaker 4: had against them. It was also very interesting and you
Speaker 4: leave it open because it really is unknown. It looked
Speaker 4: like there was evidence of sodomy. They checked for Tim's
Speaker 4: DNA there and didn't find that, so that was just
Speaker 4: another and you do righte that Carol says that Tim.
Speaker 4: Of course again why not? Her boyfriend told her geez,
Speaker 4: I'm really curious about what it's like to have sex
Speaker 4: with a body, and of course Carol was not into that.
Speaker 4: So very very interesting. Everything I've said, you know, that's
Speaker 4: all based on the records, you know, you know what.
Speaker 4: It's just as you're saying this, it's pretty disgusting, isn't
Speaker 4: it absolutely? You know, you know really, I mean, you
Speaker 4: know this is you know, you know.
Speaker 2: It's it's you know, it's it's really disgusting. And the fact,
Speaker 2: you know, and they don't know if he did or
Speaker 2: he didn't. And in a sense, it's time important because look,
Speaker 2: the guy's in jail, that's it. He's not getting out,
Speaker 2: never gonna happen. You know, I haven't even looked him up,
Speaker 2: but you know, I can look him up again, but
Speaker 2: it makes no difference. He's just gonna look a little
Speaker 2: bit older. Who cares, you know, you know there are
Speaker 2: some people. You know, it's interesting as we're talking Dan,
Speaker 2: you know there are sometimes when when when you when
Speaker 2: I write about a bad guy, you know, a murder
Speaker 2: or whatever, you're sort of sympathetic. Is not the right turn,
Speaker 2: but you know, you sort of want, you know, you
Speaker 2: wonder a little about the person. Maybe you care a
Speaker 2: little about the person. The lack of you know a
Speaker 2: better term, not these people. These are awful human beings.
Speaker 2: You know, these are awful human beings. And look, if
Speaker 2: this was a southern state when I'm having this conversation,
Speaker 2: it would have been executed a long time ago.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you talk about the heroes in this if there
Speaker 4: is such a thing as but the characters that are strong,
Speaker 4: the detectives, Tom Helton, Mike Messina, Kevin CHANNELI. And but
Speaker 4: you also spoke to Susan Garrison, which is Nancy's sibling,
Speaker 4: and you said you spoke to her in this book
Speaker 4: and she was cooperative. Before I let you go, tell
Speaker 4: us a little bit about what might have been said
Speaker 4: between you two about this, you.
Speaker 2: Know what, it's a while back, but she was very cooperative,
Speaker 2: and what she really did for me was it's really important,
Speaker 2: and she painted a picture of her sister as a
Speaker 2: human being, not as a victim. And you know, when
Speaker 2: you're writing about, you know, people who are murdered, it's
Speaker 2: very important to get that background. So she was extremely
Speaker 2: helpful that way. And that's why, as I said, I
Speaker 2: kept two pictures on my desk when I wrote the book,
Speaker 2: one of the Nancy. One of them was she was
Speaker 2: going to be a nurse. She was going to study
Speaker 2: to be a nurse, and then I had another picture
Speaker 2: of her. It was very unusual situation for me. You
Speaker 2: know too. I just kept thinking about her and thinking
Speaker 2: about her and thinking about her because I just kept thinking, Man,
Speaker 2: something wrong here. You know, this didn't have to happen,
Speaker 2: but you know it is what it is.
Speaker 4: You write in the book that the judge said to
Speaker 4: Tim and to Caroll, he addressed both of me. He said,
Speaker 4: you will spend the rest of your life in prison
Speaker 4: trying to remember what it's like to be a real
Speaker 4: human being. For a story about human beings. Yeah, it's
Speaker 4: really something, you.
Speaker 2: Know, you know that's that's unusual at least I don't know, Dan,
Speaker 2: you would know better than I do, because you know,
Speaker 2: there's stuff better than me. But that's the first time
Speaker 2: I've ever heard judge that, you know, direct vocal to
Speaker 2: use any term you want. You know, I mean it
Speaker 2: hit home emotionally.
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, it's it's it's a pretty dramatic, even for
Speaker 4: a judge too in in sentencing even the most heinous
Speaker 4: of criminals, to say something. But it sounds, you know,
Speaker 4: it is pretty profound. Really it is just criticizing them.
Speaker 5: But it's it's too much beyond that.
Speaker 2: I'm going thank you.
Speaker 5: Sorry. Well, you talked about this book in two thousand
Speaker 5: and one.
Speaker 4: This book came out, but this is a re release
Speaker 4: in twenty and fifteen with Open Road Media. Yes, this book.
Speaker 4: In two thousand and one, you said that it changed
Speaker 4: your perspective. You had a child around this time this story,
Speaker 4: and now you say it changed your attitude towards the
Speaker 4: victims of crime. This is a perfect example where it
Speaker 4: would be hard to well not feel bad for Nancy,
Speaker 4: but also, like many people, they think, well, you shouldn't
Speaker 4: have done this, and you shouldn't have done that, and
Speaker 4: put yourself in harm's way, And how did your attitude
Speaker 4: change with being a father, Fred and your attitude towards victims.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that question. The answer is I became
Speaker 2: a whole lot less judgemnical. I didn't look at you know,
Speaker 2: I just looked at things from a different perspective. And
Speaker 2: of course I also look you know, I have I
Speaker 2: have a daughter, and so any female victims. Immediately I
Speaker 2: think about the fathers and the mothers and so forth
Speaker 2: of the victims. And that's important because you know, and
Speaker 2: I can, I can you know, humanize these people, you
Speaker 2: know when you're writing, and and also you realize what
Speaker 2: your limits are. I mean, I can tell you right
Speaker 2: now that there's there's no in the world. I you know,
Speaker 2: everybody talks about John Benny Ramsay, not me. I can't
Speaker 2: touch a case like that. It's just I can't deal
Speaker 2: with with children that are murdered. It's just it's just
Speaker 2: off the charts for me, you know. So that all
Speaker 2: changed when when I when I had a child. So
Speaker 2: and I think it made me a better writer, at
Speaker 2: least I hope it did.
Speaker 4: I think so.
Speaker 2: I think so.
Speaker 4: Fred. I want to thank you Fred very much. For
Speaker 4: talking about needlework, battery, acid, heroin, and double murder. Fred,
Speaker 4: I know that you are in the process of about
Speaker 4: to get your book published. Tell us just briefly about
Speaker 4: this book, what it's about. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 4: about this your latest book project.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Dan, I appreciate it. I'm work. I wrote
Speaker 2: a book that I've been wanted to write for forty years. Honestly,
Speaker 2: it's called Bat Masterson, The First Dreamer. Bat Masterson was
Speaker 2: an American frontier hero who was the sheriff of God
Speaker 2: City and later became the crusading reporter in Turn of
Speaker 2: the Century New York. Well, it turns out that two things. First,
Speaker 2: it was involved in seven major murder cases, one of
Speaker 2: which became known as the Trial of the Century in
Speaker 2: the twentieth century. And most importantly, I suppose I had
Speaker 2: no idea Masterson was a dreamer from Canada. He immigrated
Speaker 2: to America and when he was eight years old with
Speaker 2: his parents. And so I just have to tell you
Speaker 2: that because of the fact that you know, I, you know,
Speaker 2: I've learned to try and not be political, okay when
Speaker 2: we're talking. You know, I did my research and what
Speaker 2: did I find. Guess what there's a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: presidents that have given a hard time to illegal immigrants
Speaker 2: or supposed illegal immigrants. So there's nothing new about what's
Speaker 2: happening today. But that's why I felt that Masterson was
Speaker 2: the first Dreamer. That he lied every time that he
Speaker 2: was asked on the census where he came from, and
Speaker 2: he would say he would lie. You never said king
Speaker 2: from Kenaday saying New York, Illinois. Whatever. The irony of
Speaker 2: this is that Dan is that right now there's a
Speaker 2: there's a legal case going on here in the United
Speaker 2: States where the this that they took that question off
Speaker 2: the census years ago where you're from, and now they
Speaker 2: want to put it back on, and there's a big
Speaker 2: legal case regarding it. So anyway, I'm talking to a
Speaker 2: couple of publishers about Batmansters in The First Dreamer, and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, and I hope that it's going to get published,
Speaker 2: and I think it's going to be really good and
Speaker 2: and I believe me, Dan, I thought about you when
Speaker 2: I was writing about the murders.
Speaker 4: Oh thanks, well, I said to myself, Dan's going to
Speaker 4: like this, absolutely, I'm looking forward to it. Sounds fascinating.
Speaker 4: So thanks Fred, for those that want to find out
Speaker 4: a little bit more, I guess you have a Facebook page,
Speaker 4: do you have a website?
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit.
Speaker 4: More about how they might look at all their work.
Speaker 2: Anybody, anybody want to find out anything about me, you
Speaker 2: can call the FBI CIA, and if you can't get
Speaker 2: through there, you can just go to Fredrosen dot com
Speaker 2: on my Facebook page or Open Road Media which is
Speaker 2: or Amazon of course they carry all my books.
Speaker 4: Well, Fred, thank you very much once again for an
Speaker 4: incredible interview. Thank you very much for Needlework, Battery, Acid,
Speaker 4: Heroin and Double Murder. Thank you very much, Fred Rosen,
Speaker 4: you have a great evening.
Speaker 2: Dan, thank you so much, and you are the best,
Speaker 2: sir audios.
Speaker 5: Thank you, good night.