WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've

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<v Speaker 2>No pusses every where, every I lost e terms. It

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<v Speaker 3>You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking

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<v Speaker 3>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 3>written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every

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<v Speaker 3>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 3>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your

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<v Speaker 3>host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.

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<v Speaker 5>Good Evening.

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<v Speaker 4>A Michigan couple's affair leads to true grizzly murders by

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<v Speaker 4>heroin injection. In this true crime account from the acclaimed

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<v Speaker 4>author of Lobster Boy. When Carol giles friend Nancy Billeter

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<v Speaker 4>was found dead, she had been bound, sexually violated, and

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<v Speaker 4>injected with the lethal lethal dose of battery, acid and heroine.

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<v Speaker 4>Detectives in Michigan traced Billeter's death back to Giles and

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<v Speaker 4>her boyfriend Tim Collier. Police also learned that the diabolical

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<v Speaker 4>duel shared another secret. They had murdered Giles's husband, Jesse. Jesse,

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<v Speaker 4>who had died months before Billeter was disinterred and in

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<v Speaker 4>an autopsy proved he had been given a lethal shot

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<v Speaker 4>of heroine instead of his prescribed insulin. Home Bound and

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<v Speaker 4>diabetic Jesse was a heroin dealer. Police determined that Giles,

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<v Speaker 4>who had fed up with taking care of her husband

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<v Speaker 4>and children, along with her lover Collier, had stolen the

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<v Speaker 4>final dose from Jesse's own drug supply. The cops surmised

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<v Speaker 4>that Billeter's death might have been due to her knowledge

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<v Speaker 4>of the couple's plot. In their dramatic trial, Giles and

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<v Speaker 4>Collier turned against each other, but both were actually convicted

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<v Speaker 4>of murder. The book that we're featuring this evening is Needlework, Battery, Acid, Heroin,

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<v Speaker 4>and Double Murder, with my special guest, journalist and author

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<v Speaker 4>Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, and thank you

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<v Speaker 4>very much for agreeing to this interview. Fred Rosen.

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<v Speaker 2>Zupsky. Any time that I get to go on your

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<v Speaker 2>show is a good day, okay, And I really appreciate

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<v Speaker 2>this opportunity. I have to just tell you that, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I just have to mention this to everybody

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<v Speaker 2>that's listening, because you have such an incredible listenership across

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<v Speaker 2>the world, and I just want to say that the

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<v Speaker 2>great thing is ladies and gentlemen. This gentleman reads every

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<v Speaker 2>book that he talks about, and not everybody who does

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<v Speaker 2>what he does do that. So I just wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>stay that, okay, and I'm finished, Thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 4>Fred. It's just an honor to read them. I can't

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<v Speaker 4>understand why anybody wouldn't read them in their entirety because

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<v Speaker 4>many many stories, right to the very end, you're not

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<v Speaker 4>quite sure what's going to happen, and that's the beauty

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<v Speaker 4>of it. Let's get to this. This is November fourteenth,

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<v Speaker 4>ninety nineteen ninety seven. You open this in Michigan West

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<v Speaker 4>Bloomfield of Township outside of Detroit, Michigan, and this is

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<v Speaker 4>Genesee County Sheriff Department in Genesee, Michigan as well. Tell

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<v Speaker 4>us about the fishermen and what they find. One day,

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<v Speaker 4>and you introduce a detective Shanleyan So tell us a

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<v Speaker 4>little bit about him and what the fishermen tell them

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<v Speaker 4>that they find. Tell us about what they find.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, what happens is people are just out you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's in the winter, and you know, uh, they for

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<v Speaker 2>whatever reason, you know, it's the winter, and they go

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<v Speaker 2>out fishing and in a local you know, a local river.

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<v Speaker 2>And what happens. They see a something covered on the

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<v Speaker 2>trail they're on going into this park. It's it's something,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're not sure what it is. And then they

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<v Speaker 2>get closer and they realize it's a human body and

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<v Speaker 2>it's it. And so these people are just shot, as

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<v Speaker 2>anybody would be. And the next thing you know, they

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<v Speaker 2>call the cops. And Kevin Chanlion is a detective for

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<v Speaker 2>the local police department. And you asked me to tell

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<v Speaker 2>you a little bit about the guy. Well, I got

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<v Speaker 2>to tell you that I didn't even you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>was reading the book again, Dan, and I can't believe

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't put this in. But it's what I put

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<v Speaker 2>in was the fact that Shanley in unlike you know

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<v Speaker 2>cops in the movies and detectives and so forth and

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<v Speaker 2>TV shows, he keeps his gun and his desk. He

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<v Speaker 2>only takes it out when he's got to go out

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<v Speaker 2>into the field. And I remember something. I didn't put

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<v Speaker 2>this in. That's exactly what Andy Griffith did and the

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<v Speaker 2>Andy Griffith Show. And I'm looking at this and I'm going, jeep, bred,

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<v Speaker 2>why didn't you mention that? But anyway, The point is

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<v Speaker 2>Shalian gets involved and he's one of these incredible police officers,

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<v Speaker 2>detectives that you see occasionally, I won't say often, but occasionally,

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of person who uses everything in their power

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<v Speaker 2>to bring justice to the dead.

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<v Speaker 4>Right now, you talk about the body that they find

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<v Speaker 4>and Challion and other officers that are at the scene.

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<v Speaker 4>They find this body that was, as they discover, looked

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<v Speaker 4>like somebody was trying to burn the body. They made

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<v Speaker 4>a fuse out of leaves, but the fire stopped at

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<v Speaker 4>the asphalts of the body was not burnt at all whatsoever. Really,

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<v Speaker 4>the police took vehicle impressions in this parking lot and

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<v Speaker 4>this place where this was was next to Flint, Michigan.

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<v Speaker 4>And you write about reference between West Bloomfield and Flint.

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<v Speaker 4>Flint one of the highest per capital murder rates in

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<v Speaker 4>the US. So people have heard about Flint, Michigan. But

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<v Speaker 4>they found this woman with face bloody and bruised. Her

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<v Speaker 4>left eye had been bruised, multiple lacerations around her neck.

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<v Speaker 4>You write that she had a coke spoon around her neck.

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<v Speaker 4>We remember those from the seventies and the eighties. She

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<v Speaker 4>was wrapped up in a bedspread a flowered bedspread, her

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<v Speaker 4>underpants were pulled down, her brawn her top were still up,

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<v Speaker 4>but there were small wounds and it looked like burn wounds.

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<v Speaker 2>And so.

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<v Speaker 4>So right away this is they have no idea who

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<v Speaker 4>this woman is. Obviously the perpetrators tried to burn the

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<v Speaker 4>evidence and the person. So Shanleyon is now looking for

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<v Speaker 4>somebody like doctor Mueller, the medical examiner, to take a

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<v Speaker 4>look and see what they can determine from that tell

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<v Speaker 4>us where Shanleyon and the doctor Mueller discover about the

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<v Speaker 4>body and its condition and what might have happened.

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<v Speaker 2>To this perstl Well, yes, what they find as far

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<v Speaker 2>as the body, certainly a cursory examination showed that death

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<v Speaker 2>decedent had been beaten a lot, Okay, beaten a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>And then they discovered that there were various injection sites. Man,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't make this up there, and it's true crime

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<v Speaker 2>where we're with with burn marks, okay, over those injection sites.

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<v Speaker 2>But the most important piece of evidence, and it shows

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<v Speaker 2>of course that we're not dealing with criminal masterminds doing this,

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<v Speaker 2>was the fact that she was wearing a T shirt

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<v Speaker 2>that said South Boulevard Station. Okay, you know that's so

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<v Speaker 2>and it was pretty easy for Shanley and to figure

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<v Speaker 2>out Okay, uh that you know, let's look that one up.

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<v Speaker 2>And they found that it was a restaurant south of

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<v Speaker 2>Flint and and that led them to the identification of

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<v Speaker 2>the body. But it still was a long way from

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<v Speaker 2>there to figuring out who'd done it.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you talk about right away when they identify the

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<v Speaker 4>person as Nancy billet Her.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, they soon.

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<v Speaker 4>Talked to a friend named Caroluboy, and so they talked

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<v Speaker 4>to a few people. They talked to Carol, and they

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<v Speaker 4>talked to a person named Skip Selbach. And of course

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<v Speaker 4>they're talking to people at work to see what happened

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<v Speaker 4>that evening. So what did they determine that evening when

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<v Speaker 4>she did go to work and then when she left,

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<v Speaker 4>what did they determine happened behind one time to the other?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, what they determined was she went to work. She

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<v Speaker 2>was living with at that point temporarily with her friend

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<v Speaker 2>Carol Giles in West Bloomfield Township, Michigan, and she lived

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<v Speaker 2>with her mother, but Carol's husband had died recently, so

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<v Speaker 2>she'd moved in to help her out. Giles had two kids,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course she also had a boyfriend named Tim Collier.

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<v Speaker 2>And so what occurs here is that Nancy Billeterer has

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<v Speaker 2>a very big heart, and so she wants to go

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<v Speaker 2>and help her friend, and that leads to what it

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<v Speaker 2>leads to.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, you talk about Carol's background, talking about fifteen years

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<v Speaker 4>old and just this trouble background. Tell us a little

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<v Speaker 4>bit about her background with her father, oh and the

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<v Speaker 4>allegation she makes against him. And then in light of

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<v Speaker 4>this troubled background at fifteen years old, who does she meet?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Boy, you know, I'll tell you something. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>when you read you know, look, when you read this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff and police reports and you talk to the police

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<v Speaker 2>and they give it the info. If you put it

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<v Speaker 2>together and you got a heart, and that's important in

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<v Speaker 2>this work, I feel, then it really can get to you.

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<v Speaker 2>And what happens in Carol Giles's case, she alleges that

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<v Speaker 2>her father had ancested her. I mean, I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>have trouble even saying it, okay. And what happens is

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<v Speaker 2>she wants to get the heck out of the house

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<v Speaker 2>to do and again this is in Michigan, and so

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<v Speaker 2>she winds up meeting a guy who's oh, I think

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<v Speaker 2>let's see Jesse Giles as I think about nineteen years

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<v Speaker 2>or twenty years older than her. So she meets this guy,

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<v Speaker 2>Jesse Gild who's a and this is relevant because of

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<v Speaker 2>what happens later. He's very overweight, talking girl boy, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the short guy, not you know, five to six, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>over three hundred pounds, diabetic, okay, but he is basically

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<v Speaker 2>like the father to her she never had. That's what's

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<v Speaker 2>so interesting about this. How she's repeating the pattern of

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<v Speaker 2>going to somebody and this guy is abusive to her

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<v Speaker 2>in various ways. And he's a drug dealer. I will

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<v Speaker 2>also tell you that he's the smallest drug dealer I've

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<v Speaker 2>ever written the pet We can talk about that later,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's a very interesting relationship that way. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>how who's a views It could be a guy who

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<v Speaker 2>makes no different person. You know, you don't have any

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<v Speaker 2>self esteem. It's understandable. So what do you do? You

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<v Speaker 2>try to find a way out? And how does she

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<v Speaker 2>find a way out? She goes with a drug dealer

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<v Speaker 2>who's more than twice their age.

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<v Speaker 4>You also talk about it to become business associates. So

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<v Speaker 4>we just lends you the idea that she's not just

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<v Speaker 4>an innocent bystander in his drug business.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh.

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<v Speaker 4>He at the time of his death, he's over four

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<v Speaker 4>hundred pounds, you right, about four hundred and fifty pounds,

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<v Speaker 4>So he's quite sickly and diabetic and inactive, we'll say,

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<v Speaker 4>to say the least. But also that keeping with the abuse,

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<v Speaker 4>that often she prostitutes her out as a favor to

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<v Speaker 4>some of his drug clients.

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<v Speaker 5>So that's part of what Dan, Dan, thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>You know. It's like, sometimes I feel like the naive

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<v Speaker 2>guy in the world when I find out stuff like this.

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<v Speaker 2>I go, I didn't know about this, and that's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know that drug dealers would have a woman

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<v Speaker 2>close to them who they would then as prostitute out

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<v Speaker 2>and that's exactly what happened here. And again what's so interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, everybody goes through life with decisions to make. Dan,

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<v Speaker 2>no matter what the hand is, were dealt in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of our backgrounds. Well, she said, okay, I'm gonna marry

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<v Speaker 2>this guy, you know, and she also decided to marry well,

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<v Speaker 2>sheould also mention this guy as African American, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was an affront to allegedly to her father at that

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<v Speaker 2>point in time. So here's a situation where she's basically

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<v Speaker 2>trying to work at her problems and she goes forward

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<v Speaker 2>and doesn't have the skills to do it. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you should have got You know, that's an interesting one too,

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<v Speaker 2>because there's nothing in the record regarding that I've seen

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<v Speaker 2>how she did in school that would be interesting, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>now that we're talking about it, you know, did anybody

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<v Speaker 2>ever notice anything? You know, did she ever report anything?

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<v Speaker 2>But so you know, I didn't find anything like that

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<v Speaker 2>when I was writing the book.

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<v Speaker 4>Continuing with this, Nancy's mother is contacting.

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<v Speaker 5>The police.

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<v Speaker 4>Of course, got the tough job of knocking on the door.

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<v Speaker 4>It's missus Phillis Burke and they say, listen, your daughter,

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<v Speaker 4>Nancy's been murdered. When was the last time you saw her?

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<v Speaker 4>And as you're writing a book over a sadder part

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<v Speaker 4>of this is tell us a little bit about this

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<v Speaker 4>last thing that they remember that the mother remembers about

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<v Speaker 4>the daughter.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to remember. I reread the book today, but

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<v Speaker 2>I don't remember all the details except for this.

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<v Speaker 4>There was a problem, right, There was an argument, and

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<v Speaker 4>the last time they saw each other they argued, So again,

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<v Speaker 4>just another the last memory of her daughter was just regrettable.

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<v Speaker 2>An argument argument, Yeah, thanks man, thanks, Yes, they had

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<v Speaker 2>an argument, and you know, you can't you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>can't even imagine what that would be like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>to lose you know, God forbid losing a child, but

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<v Speaker 2>let alone after having had an argument, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>they were having problems and so forth. There's never going

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<v Speaker 2>to be any closure. There's never going to be any closure.

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<v Speaker 2>And it points up to me all the lack of

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<v Speaker 2>a better term, the collateral damage in a case like well,

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<v Speaker 2>just like in any case, Dan, I mean the family,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the family, and you know, and having the

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<v Speaker 2>family having to deal with this stuff, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>how the heck do you deal with it? I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I've actually got a situation in my family

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<v Speaker 2>where I feel like somebody cousin of mine was murdered.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's so specious, it doesn't it's nothing. You know this,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what I'm saying. It's like, you've got a

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<v Speaker 2>very basic situation here. This woman was murdered.

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<v Speaker 4>You talk about Detective Milkie and Edwards and they're talking

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<v Speaker 4>about missus Burke. Now Nancy's siblings, Susan, Karen.

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<v Speaker 2>And Doug.

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<v Speaker 4>They talked to the desetctives and say, yes, she had

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<v Speaker 4>a coke problem. So now the police understand that she

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<v Speaker 4>had the cocaine might have something to do with this,

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<v Speaker 4>but she definitely she has a coke problem. She had

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<v Speaker 4>a child out of wedlock, and this is she tried

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<v Speaker 4>to raise her on her own and she worked hard,

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<v Speaker 4>and she was a waitress. She had been married ten

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<v Speaker 4>years before, and her mother took care of Nancy's baby.

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<v Speaker 4>What eventually police find out from talking to people at

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<v Speaker 4>work is that someone had driven her home. What they

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<v Speaker 4>find out is about again that Carol Giles is Nancy's roommates.

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<v Speaker 4>So they finally find out where she lives, knock on

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<v Speaker 4>the door and they get to talk to her.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, in fact, if I may to interrupt for a second,

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<v Speaker 2>they don't knock on the door. What they do is

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<v Speaker 2>when they found out that Giles was the roommate quote

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<v Speaker 2>unquote man and they you know, it's like in the movies,

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<v Speaker 2>they drove their car right up, you know, behind hers,

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<v Speaker 2>and she was just on her way out, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>when they started talking to her. And that's when they

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<v Speaker 2>started talking to her. And and then and that's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning of you know what, what the whole plot is.

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<v Speaker 4>It's interesting too that these again when you mentioned that

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<v Speaker 4>these aren't the brightest criminals around, while the police take

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<v Speaker 4>advantage of that their lack of experience, especially Carol's lack

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<v Speaker 4>of experience with the law, so they taught. They ask

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<v Speaker 4>her if if she has any drugs or guns, and

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<v Speaker 4>she does not have to answer questions, she does not

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<v Speaker 4>have to submit to a search, but if she volunteers

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<v Speaker 4>this information, she volunteers and offers to be and it

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<v Speaker 4>replies that she yes, she will be searched, and that's

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<v Speaker 4>certainly what the police will do. So what do they

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<v Speaker 4>find on her person?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Well, they find drugs. What do you call it?

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<v Speaker 2>The crack? I gotta tell you, Dan, that this was

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<v Speaker 2>an education. I don't know anything about back so you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, the the most I've ever done

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<v Speaker 2>is weed. But you know, you know, it's all about crack, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>And oh and then they also find, uh, she's got

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<v Speaker 2>a gun. Mm hmm. She's got a gun. And and

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<v Speaker 2>then when they in the they find it in the car,

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<v Speaker 2>they find uh, what is it? Battery aster? Mm hmm.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's like, excuse me, you know, what's that doing here?

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, they find some stuff that none of

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<v Speaker 2>it makes any you know, no, none of it makes

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<v Speaker 2>any sense. I mean. And and of course I'm sure

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<v Speaker 2>that you know, I didn't get into it at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm sure she didn't have a license to carry

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<v Speaker 2>the weapon, you know what I mean? And neither did

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<v Speaker 2>he her boyfriend, Collier, who had an automatic that he

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<v Speaker 2>usually kept in his waist band. You know, to me, Dan,

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<v Speaker 2>what it what it what? What it says to me

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<v Speaker 2>is how you know? On one hand, you can have

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<v Speaker 2>people like Tim Collier who grow up for whatever reason,

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<v Speaker 2>it's bad guys. On the other hand, you get people

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<v Speaker 2>like Carol Giles who get abused and then what is

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<v Speaker 2>that lead You're making wrong decisions as an adult that

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<v Speaker 2>leads to murder?

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<v Speaker 5>Whoa You know, we will, we will, we will talk

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<v Speaker 5>about this.

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<v Speaker 4>But I also think that there's an incredible and this

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<v Speaker 4>won't be a surprise to anybody, but this is there's

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<v Speaker 4>an incredible reaction to these drugs. I think that I

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<v Speaker 4>think a person into the froze of addiction could leave

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<v Speaker 4>their children like these people do for hours and.

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<v Speaker 5>Hours of people to go do what they need to do.

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<v Speaker 5>But that is just one of the things.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, Carol talks about her children later like she's

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<v Speaker 4>a caring mother, but that's not the case. That's just

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<v Speaker 4>a that's a story. But let's get back to let's

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<v Speaker 4>get back to this with Carol, because it really comes

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<v Speaker 4>down to the unsophistication, the lack of sophistication of Carol

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<v Speaker 4>and some and savvy police as well, because I got

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<v Speaker 4>to say, there was a point here and it becomes

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<v Speaker 4>an issue later where she may ask for a lawyer,

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<v Speaker 4>she may ask for a lawyer, and all of this

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<v Speaker 4>would go away, and all this information about Tim and

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<v Speaker 4>Nancy and what really happened wouldn't happen. And then they ask, well,

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<v Speaker 4>you can have a lawyer, or you could talk to

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<v Speaker 4>a detective. Oh Man post just a little bit about

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<v Speaker 4>this little bit of wordplay to be able to comfort her,

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<v Speaker 4>this strategy, to be able to get the information they

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<v Speaker 4>needed to get from her.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you know what This is the reason why whenever

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<v Speaker 2>I do an interview with you, I have to read

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<v Speaker 2>the whole book again because otherwise I'm not prepared. And

359
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<v Speaker 2>I and I of course I you know, I just

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<v Speaker 2>read that again and basically what we're saying here is

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<v Speaker 2>that they needed to know what she was thinking. Asked

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<v Speaker 2>the question again, I just got off track for sick,

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<v Speaker 2>Ask the question again.

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<v Speaker 5>They have they have a dilemma.

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<v Speaker 4>There is talk, you know, even though they've coaxed her

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<v Speaker 4>in this interview to get quite a bit of information,

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<v Speaker 4>at some point she has the opportunity to pick a

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<v Speaker 4>lawyer and they pose a question to her to get

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<v Speaker 4>her not the lawyers. Pretty ingenious, very simple, tell us

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<v Speaker 4>about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what happens is, thank you. What happens is because

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<v Speaker 2>I tend to get off track. That's where you come

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<v Speaker 2>back and getting on track. What happens is every time,

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<v Speaker 2>every time a person it turns well, it turns out that,

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<v Speaker 2>at least in Michigan, anytime they interview with suspect, they

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<v Speaker 2>give them their rights. So every single time they do that,

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<v Speaker 2>and because the individual is interviewed a number of times,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not uncommon. Well, what happens here is she Carol Giles,

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<v Speaker 2>requests a lawyer. Now, once you request a lawyer in

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<v Speaker 2>the United States dates the interrogation is supposed to stop

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<v Speaker 2>and you can't ask them any more questions. Well, the

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00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:17.240
<v Speaker 2>detective in this case says, well, he says, uh, we

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<v Speaker 2>can get you a lawyer, but which we can. Also

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<v Speaker 2>we also have the detective. You can talk just right

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<v Speaker 2>outside over here, and she says, okay, I'll talk to

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00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:32.440
<v Speaker 2>the detective. It was an absolutely brilliant piece of police work,

387
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:38.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't violate the suspects rights, and then she wound up

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00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:43.240
<v Speaker 2>talking to the detective and gave some interesting information about

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<v Speaker 2>what was going on.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, Carol says that night, she right away is telling

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<v Speaker 4>police a story, and the police just have a sense

392
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<v Speaker 4>that it's not complete story, there's something off with it.

393
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:06.079
<v Speaker 4>But the story she has is pretty horrifying. Is that

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<v Speaker 4>Nancy got her home around eleven PM that night, and

395
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<v Speaker 4>Nancy and Tim went to the basement and they smoked

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00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:17.480
<v Speaker 4>some crack and Tim was upset with Nancy at burglary

397
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:21.319
<v Speaker 4>had happened while Tim and she were in California on vacation.

398
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<v Speaker 4>So Tim is accusing her of stealing a VCR and

399
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<v Speaker 4>apparently she says, first off that Nancy's called someone on

400
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:33.400
<v Speaker 4>the phone about one thirty am and then the guy

401
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:41.640
<v Speaker 4>picked her up. But they know that there's more to

402
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:46.519
<v Speaker 4>this story. Obviously, where they've searched the Carol's car, she

403
00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:49.440
<v Speaker 4>has a Cadillac, and she has a sable and they

404
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:51.640
<v Speaker 4>and then again like you had mentioned, they find this

405
00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:55.440
<v Speaker 4>battery acid, and they find a handgun and then they

406
00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:59.240
<v Speaker 4>find they find her driver's license under the driver's seat.

407
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:02.279
<v Speaker 4>So there's more to the story, and she talks more.

408
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<v Speaker 4>They keep pushing her for more information.

409
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<v Speaker 2>Yes, they do. And actually you're making a very very

410
00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:17.920
<v Speaker 2>very good point, which is and I didn't say this

411
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<v Speaker 2>in the book, but you're making a good point, which

412
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:28.480
<v Speaker 2>is what they're doing here is separating or trying to

413
00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:34.839
<v Speaker 2>separate the two suspects who they know are involved, but

414
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:39.599
<v Speaker 2>they're trying to separate them emotionally so they can get

415
00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:43.200
<v Speaker 2>the truth out of one, at least one of the suspects.

416
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:48.119
<v Speaker 2>Because one thing they know for sure, they know that

417
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<v Speaker 2>Collier is a really bad guy. And it isn't so

418
00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:01.240
<v Speaker 2>much the guy's record or it's the vo vibes. Okay,

419
00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:06.400
<v Speaker 2>it's the vibes and all of the information that we've

420
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:12.599
<v Speaker 2>discussed regarding Carol Giles's background. The police had all this information,

421
00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:17.440
<v Speaker 2>so they knew exactly what they were dealing with, you know,

422
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:21.440
<v Speaker 2>they knew exactly what they were dealing with, and you know,

423
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:24.160
<v Speaker 2>so it was well, it was a challenge to put

424
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:26.000
<v Speaker 2>it all together. They met the challenge.

425
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:30.400
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<v Speaker 2>No necessary void where everybody lost the terms conditions eighteen plus.

449
00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.200
<v Speaker 4>While they have her in costady, of course they're going

450
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:35.599
<v Speaker 4>to look for Tim Collier.

451
00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:37.640
<v Speaker 5>And they do find him.

452
00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:41.759
<v Speaker 4>And of course, again the unsophisticated prisoners that they are,

453
00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:48.119
<v Speaker 4>they they give they read him her statement, Carol's statement,

454
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.440
<v Speaker 4>and he doesn't say anything, and he has an ability

455
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.519
<v Speaker 4>to lawyer up, which would have been probably a super

456
00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:56.359
<v Speaker 4>smart idea.

457
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:04.359
<v Speaker 2>And yet what does he do, as I recalling, makes

458
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:05.240
<v Speaker 2>a statement.

459
00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:10.119
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, and of course, as you allude to in the

460
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:16.960
<v Speaker 4>description of synopsis, of course he tries to blame. He thinks, jeez,

461
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:18.720
<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna spend there is no death penalty here, but

462
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:20.240
<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna spend the rest of my life in prison.

463
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:23.240
<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna try to get in front of this right

464
00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:25.599
<v Speaker 4>and put the blame on Carol.

465
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:29.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think we should explain that to the

466
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:35.119
<v Speaker 2>listeners that Michigan, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the

467
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:40.839
<v Speaker 2>states that got rid of the death penalty. I wrote

468
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:42.599
<v Speaker 2>about it in my auntlass of crime, and I want

469
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:45.160
<v Speaker 2>to say it's at least about one hundred and fifty

470
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:49.440
<v Speaker 2>years ago, you know what I mean. So they don't

471
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:51.920
<v Speaker 2>have the death penalty, folks, but what they do have

472
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:57.839
<v Speaker 2>is a thing they call natural life. And so in

473
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:02.279
<v Speaker 2>a situation like this, what would what would happen is

474
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:04.559
<v Speaker 2>if the end of if the if the bad guy

475
00:32:04.759 --> 00:32:08.839
<v Speaker 2>and the girl are convicted, they not only go to

476
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:11.319
<v Speaker 2>jail for the rest of their lives, they'll never get

477
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:15.720
<v Speaker 2>out in for all. It's natural life, that's it. They're

478
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:19.519
<v Speaker 2>throwing the key away, folks. So this is this is

479
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:22.759
<v Speaker 2>it's a big thing. You know, it's a big thing.

480
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:27.200
<v Speaker 2>And of course both defendants are going to go against

481
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.799
<v Speaker 2>each other because you know, they want to get a

482
00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:33.359
<v Speaker 2>leg up if there's some way to get a leg up.

483
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:37.039
<v Speaker 2>Though actually, as we're talking about it right now, I

484
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:38.920
<v Speaker 2>realize there's no way to get a leg up on

485
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:41.680
<v Speaker 2>any of this stuff. I mean, look at what they're

486
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:45.920
<v Speaker 2>charged with. They're charged with murder one. You know, Yeah,

487
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:51.920
<v Speaker 2>there's no there's no negotiating here. There's no negotiating. And

488
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.359
<v Speaker 2>there's something else I should I should also mention, which

489
00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:57.400
<v Speaker 2>I didn't talk about in the book. I discovered this

490
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:03.839
<v Speaker 2>much later, Dan. You know, most most times of looking

491
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:09.240
<v Speaker 2>at the American criminal justice system, usually you know, you say, okay,

492
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:13.000
<v Speaker 2>the North is liberal, the West is liberal, or you know,

493
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:16.680
<v Speaker 2>the west coast whatever in the South is conservative. Blah

494
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:21.799
<v Speaker 2>blah blah. You know, well, here's a fact, Michigan is

495
00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:29.880
<v Speaker 2>a very conservative place. So that's very very important in

496
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:33.960
<v Speaker 2>a situation like that like this, where you're talking about

497
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:39.200
<v Speaker 2>individuals or about to come up on chargers of murder

498
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:44.480
<v Speaker 2>one uh and not not murder one for two individuals,

499
00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:49.319
<v Speaker 2>two individuals, you know, I mean, which that's a lot,

500
00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:50.880
<v Speaker 2>I think, so.

501
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:57.119
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely. What we talked about, what you write about in

502
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:02.079
<v Speaker 4>the book too, is that you Nancy moves in on

503
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:04.599
<v Speaker 4>the premise that she's helping out her friend get over

504
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:09.440
<v Speaker 4>the grieving of her husband that died by natural causes

505
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:13.480
<v Speaker 4>of a heart attack. So she's reeving and moving in.

506
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:20.239
<v Speaker 4>But shortly after Jesse's death, her husband's death, Tim moves

507
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:25.000
<v Speaker 4>in as well. And in the description in the further interviews,

508
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:29.239
<v Speaker 4>we're hearing more and more. We will talk about Tim's.

509
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.400
<v Speaker 5>Interview and what he has to say too.

510
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:35.079
<v Speaker 4>But Carol starts talking about how as she's being pushed

511
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:38.199
<v Speaker 4>by the detectives on how this came to be. That

512
00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:43.320
<v Speaker 4>was what made Tim so angry. And we also find

513
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:46.039
<v Speaker 4>out that the reason there was a lot of this

514
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:49.280
<v Speaker 4>trouble is because they went to California. She babysat for

515
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.679
<v Speaker 4>them because she owed Tim a couple of odds of

516
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:54.280
<v Speaker 4>dollars for drugs, so they thought this would be a

517
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:57.280
<v Speaker 4>good way. And then while she was while they were away,

518
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:00.079
<v Speaker 4>she got they got a call from her and and

519
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:03.719
<v Speaker 4>while there's been a breaking enter and when they got back,

520
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:07.920
<v Speaker 4>there was one piece of evidence. In their mind, it

521
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:11.000
<v Speaker 4>proved that she was a thief. And it was shaped

522
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.800
<v Speaker 4>in a coke bottle. Tell us about this, it was

523
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:16.360
<v Speaker 4>quite important murder weapon.

524
00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:28.400
<v Speaker 2>Wow, oh boy, Well there was a piggy bank shaped

525
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:37.039
<v Speaker 2>like a coke bottle. Now, Nancy Billeger claimed that somebody

526
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:44.159
<v Speaker 2>had broken in and stolen some stuff. Well, and when

527
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:48.840
<v Speaker 2>Carol and Tin came back from the West Coast jaunt,

528
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:54.800
<v Speaker 2>they discovered. Carol discovered the piggy bank in Nancy's car

529
00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:59.960
<v Speaker 2>and she's going, what the heck is this doing here? Well, later,

530
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:08.800
<v Speaker 2>ron boy, it becomes a murder weapon. Carol will eventually

531
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:15.880
<v Speaker 2>use it to beat Nancy with which is linked forensically,

532
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.119
<v Speaker 2>which of course is you know, which I always find interesting,

533
00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:21.880
<v Speaker 2>by the way, I can't you know. I love it

534
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:24.880
<v Speaker 2>when they can do that stuff. You know, it's like

535
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.119
<v Speaker 2>it's almost like watching a true crime TV show and

536
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:31.440
<v Speaker 2>it's real, you know, but you know what I'm saying,

537
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:38.559
<v Speaker 2>and and but but but this is oh man, uh yeah,

538
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:42.880
<v Speaker 2>so that's a murder weapon. And what's very interesting about that,

539
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:48.440
<v Speaker 2>oh man, I'm going to reminded me, is that when

540
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:54.679
<v Speaker 2>the detectives are looking at what might have been used

541
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:58.920
<v Speaker 2>as a murder weapon, that is, Nancy was beaten face

542
00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:06.119
<v Speaker 2>by et cetera, and the the the the the bank

543
00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:11.440
<v Speaker 2>comes up the piggy bank. When Carol gives a confession

544
00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:16.960
<v Speaker 2>to the cops regarding finding the piggy bank, okay, well,

545
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:19.800
<v Speaker 2>what happens is one of the detectives, I'm not I'm

546
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:26.320
<v Speaker 2>not sure one of the detectives, Messine. I think it's Messina.

547
00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:30.440
<v Speaker 2>What he does is he goes back and he looks

548
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:34.840
<v Speaker 2>at the crime scene photos because nobody saw that, nobody

549
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:38.320
<v Speaker 2>knows where this bank is. And you know what he finds.

550
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.599
<v Speaker 2>He finds it's it's it's in this bookcase. And they

551
00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:45.719
<v Speaker 2>go to the house the murder scene. They get that,

552
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:48.400
<v Speaker 2>they get it, and they test it, and you know,

553
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:51.000
<v Speaker 2>next thing, you know, they've got themselves.

554
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:51.599
<v Speaker 5>One of the murder weapons.

555
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:56.079
<v Speaker 2>Now, it's very interesting. It was a really terrific piece

556
00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:59.800
<v Speaker 2>of I think it was a terrific piece of detective work.

557
00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:02.440
<v Speaker 2>You know what I mean. I mean, you know that

558
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:06.079
<v Speaker 2>doesn't happen very often in real life, you know.

559
00:38:08.119 --> 00:38:11.800
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely. Let's use this fred as an opportunity to stop

560
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:14.239
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561
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584
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:44.519
<v Speaker 5>Now we will last left off.

585
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:50.519
<v Speaker 4>The police have Carol in custody. They have Tim in custody,

586
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:55.800
<v Speaker 4>and they're hearing a story of Tim's paranoia. Tim's homophobic

587
00:39:55.960 --> 00:40:00.559
<v Speaker 4>rants that Nancy and Carol are lovers, and he just

588
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:03.719
<v Speaker 4>knows it, and he tries to arrange a threesome but

589
00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:07.000
<v Speaker 4>it doesn't work out, and he is angry, and he

590
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:11.519
<v Speaker 4>looks like he's angry. He tells Carol about and of

591
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:13.440
<v Speaker 4>course he's leaving a story now that she was so

592
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:16.559
<v Speaker 4>frightened by this person, she had to do all of

593
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:19.320
<v Speaker 4>his bidding and all of his orders he had to obey.

594
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:23.840
<v Speaker 4>But she talks about how he talks about killing seven

595
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:27.360
<v Speaker 4>people in his background, being associated with some gang in

596
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:31.039
<v Speaker 4>Detroit where he gets his drugs from, and offering to

597
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:35.639
<v Speaker 4>kill her father for the molestation. Yes, but then we

598
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:40.920
<v Speaker 4>hear about Jesse Giles. Now what do we hear about

599
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:45.280
<v Speaker 4>Jesse Giles and Nancy's involvement and Tim's involvement.

600
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:53.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, this will eventually come at as the case proceeds

601
00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:58.119
<v Speaker 2>toward trial. It's funny. It's just saying this. I was

602
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:02.000
<v Speaker 2>saying to myself, do I told us to Dan or not?

603
00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:06.760
<v Speaker 2>But as I was reading the book again and I

604
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:11.960
<v Speaker 2>hadn't read it in a long time, Okay, I was

605
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:16.119
<v Speaker 2>reminded about how much I was influenced growing up by

606
00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:22.559
<v Speaker 2>the by the novels of Raymond Chandler, who created Philip Marlowe,

607
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:30.719
<v Speaker 2>the archetypal Hollywood detective. He used to he used to say, uh, Chandler,

608
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:34.239
<v Speaker 2>when the plot lags, always have a man come through

609
00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:38.599
<v Speaker 2>the door with a gun. Well, you know, as I'm

610
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:42.000
<v Speaker 2>getting into this, you know, and I'm taking a look

611
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:45.519
<v Speaker 2>at at this whole thing. What's so interesting to me

612
00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:58.400
<v Speaker 2>is that Collier keeps bragging about this quote unquote gang background,

613
00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:03.159
<v Speaker 2>like you said, where he killed seven people. Okay, there's

614
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:07.719
<v Speaker 2>no evidence of this. I didn't find anything, you know,

615
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:13.519
<v Speaker 2>in the way of evidence about whatsoever. On the other hand,

616
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:22.400
<v Speaker 2>Giles his girlfriend. When the time came to make a

617
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:33.280
<v Speaker 2>decision about killing two individuals and Jesse Giles her husband,

618
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:36.559
<v Speaker 2>she didn't hesitate. What she did was she spoke to

619
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:41.639
<v Speaker 2>Tim about it, and because she was already having an

620
00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:45.719
<v Speaker 2>affair with him and what she was having problems with

621
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:49.199
<v Speaker 2>Jesse for whatever reason. And you know what, as we're

622
00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:52.679
<v Speaker 2>talking about it, I'm thinking to myself, this is a

623
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:58.400
<v Speaker 2>certain this is displacement. Psychologically, she really wanted to kill

624
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:02.159
<v Speaker 2>her father, Well, she decided to kill her husband, who

625
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:05.320
<v Speaker 2>essentially was the same person. How does she do it?

626
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:10.079
<v Speaker 2>Tim gives her some heroin, puts it into a syringe,

627
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:13.639
<v Speaker 2>because because Jesse is a diabetic, she gives him injections.

628
00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:17.920
<v Speaker 2>So she gives him a hotshot, you know, and the

629
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.639
<v Speaker 2>next thing, you know, he dies. You know, Well, it's

630
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:24.119
<v Speaker 2>not so fast as that. She you know, he doesn't

631
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:28.199
<v Speaker 2>die immediately, but she winds up talking to Tim about

632
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:31.000
<v Speaker 2>it on the phone and so forth. Tim will later

633
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:33.119
<v Speaker 2>say that he had nothing to do with any of this,

634
00:43:33.239 --> 00:43:38.880
<v Speaker 2>which is a bunch of crap. But they talk about it,

635
00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:43.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, and it's very clear that what you have

636
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:51.639
<v Speaker 2>here is two individuals conspiring to murder a third individual,

637
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:53.199
<v Speaker 2>which is exactly what happens.

638
00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:00.239
<v Speaker 4>You introduce a detective that's important to this case. Obviously,

639
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:06.360
<v Speaker 4>this detective healthon and so he is looking and he

640
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:10.719
<v Speaker 4>realizes too that he talks to everybody, talks to Jesse's

641
00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:14.360
<v Speaker 4>sister who has the children. Her name is Matty Marian.

642
00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:22.320
<v Speaker 4>He is single handedly getting to the truth with these

643
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:26.400
<v Speaker 4>two people, and with his investigation with other people that

644
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:32.400
<v Speaker 4>have information as well. They turn up a person of importance,

645
00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:38.400
<v Speaker 4>a name Up Church, his uncle, Tim's uncle. Tell us

646
00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:41.119
<v Speaker 4>about Tim's uncle and what they get from him.

647
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:48.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, Tim's uncle, Sim's uncle is over fled and actually

648
00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:53.719
<v Speaker 2>it turns out it's a step uncle, but whatever, And

649
00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:58.440
<v Speaker 2>what happens is sim Is hangs out there and he's

650
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:01.079
<v Speaker 2>and he hangs out there with Carol in the middle

651
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:06.039
<v Speaker 2>of trying to get disposed of Nancy Billeger's body. And

652
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:14.039
<v Speaker 2>what happens is Tim goes to a gas station at

653
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:18.519
<v Speaker 2>some point before he gets to his uncle's and he

654
00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:21.800
<v Speaker 2>fills up a jug with you know, one of those

655
00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:25.519
<v Speaker 2>ten get down gallon jugs with gasoline, and he's also

656
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:30.679
<v Speaker 2>got some lighter fluid. What happens is when they when

657
00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:35.480
<v Speaker 2>after they try to dispose of the Nancy's body by

658
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:40.840
<v Speaker 2>putting it into this park, pouring gasoline on her, and

659
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:45.440
<v Speaker 2>then and then a trail of twigs and and it

660
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:50.840
<v Speaker 2>was pretty stupid, a trail of twigs and dead leaves

661
00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:57.000
<v Speaker 2>which they tried to light up with the lighter fluid

662
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:01.119
<v Speaker 2>and so forth, which didn't work. What Tim does is

663
00:46:01.159 --> 00:46:05.960
<v Speaker 2>he takes the lighter fluid after that and the the

664
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:11.320
<v Speaker 2>the other stuff and takes it over to his uncle's house,

665
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:15.039
<v Speaker 2>the lighter fluid in the gasolene, that what's left in

666
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:18.480
<v Speaker 2>the cannon. He leads it as uncles and eventually the

667
00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:22.079
<v Speaker 2>police wind up talking to our church about it, and

668
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:24.719
<v Speaker 2>he tells him the whole you know, he doesn't have

669
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:27.760
<v Speaker 2>very much tell him, but he tells him that, you know,

670
00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:29.239
<v Speaker 2>Tim had left the stuff there.

671
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:36.559
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, absolutely, it's interesting too. There's a statement where they

672
00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:39.039
<v Speaker 4>say that they have some information that he's involved with

673
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:42.840
<v Speaker 4>the murder, and he says, only the gas is evidence.

674
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:46.960
<v Speaker 4>I could just imagine him saying, you know, like not

675
00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:50.360
<v Speaker 4>and again another sharp legal mind telling the police what

676
00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:51.760
<v Speaker 4>evidence is you know?

677
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:57.280
<v Speaker 2>So oh man, Yeah, I mean it's you know, just

678
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:02.599
<v Speaker 2>as we're talking, I'm really realizing something. What we're talking

679
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:05.239
<v Speaker 2>about here. This has nothing to do with you know,

680
00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:11.280
<v Speaker 2>with race. You were talking about a criminal underclass in

681
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:16.760
<v Speaker 2>this country, and that's who these individuals were and are

682
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:21.280
<v Speaker 2>that's it. You know, it's a criminal because when as

683
00:47:21.400 --> 00:47:24.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm reading the you know what I wrote, and I'm thinking,

684
00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:29.360
<v Speaker 2>how do people do this stuff? Well, you're bad guys,

685
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:33.079
<v Speaker 2>you know. You know it's and again you take a

686
00:47:33.159 --> 00:47:37.519
<v Speaker 2>look at Carol Giles. This is a situation where you

687
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:43.039
<v Speaker 2>actually have in the input, you actually have background on

688
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:48.519
<v Speaker 2>how a murderer grew up. That's pretty rare, you know

689
00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:50.880
<v Speaker 2>what I mean. And then that's why the cops were

690
00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:55.840
<v Speaker 2>very very good and documenting everything. Damn, I mean, and this,

691
00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:58.760
<v Speaker 2>you know this doesn't happen, you know in a lot

692
00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:03.760
<v Speaker 2>of places. They were very very cooperative. And that again

693
00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:07.320
<v Speaker 2>it's the years since cops had been that cooperative in

694
00:48:07.400 --> 00:48:08.079
<v Speaker 2>a case with me.

695
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:13.280
<v Speaker 4>Right now, you talk about to get proof of the

696
00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:17.639
<v Speaker 4>heroine in the insulin by exooming Jesse's body. Yes, so

697
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:21.400
<v Speaker 4>they have that information. They've both incriminated themselves, so they're

698
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:26.199
<v Speaker 4>both guilty of murder. But Tim's story sounds a whole

699
00:48:26.239 --> 00:48:30.280
<v Speaker 4>lot less believable and isn't consistent with forensic evidence, whereas

700
00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:36.440
<v Speaker 4>Carol's is. In this investigation and just at this trial

701
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:41.199
<v Speaker 4>again it looks like what possibly can be the motive

702
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:44.320
<v Speaker 4>because even the police figured this can't be all of

703
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:49.199
<v Speaker 4>the motive for the torture, that this Fancy Billet injured.

704
00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:53.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, well yes, yes, see what and that's very

705
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:58.800
<v Speaker 2>yeah what they really Oh yeah, yeah, that's really interesting.

706
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:06.239
<v Speaker 2>That's the real point of this, which is what the police,

707
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:12.320
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutor rather feels and makes clear to the jury,

708
00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:22.280
<v Speaker 2>is that Nancy was again living with Giles and Collier

709
00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:28.280
<v Speaker 2>for a while before she was murdered, and the police

710
00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:34.079
<v Speaker 2>and the prosecutors make the argument that she overheard them

711
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:47.880
<v Speaker 2>talking about why Billet he had to die. I'm sorry,

712
00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:57.039
<v Speaker 2>not Billet, I'm a boy, I'm sorry. She overheard them

713
00:49:57.119 --> 00:50:01.159
<v Speaker 2>talking about about Jesse, the fact that they had killed Jesse,

714
00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:09.199
<v Speaker 2>and the point is that they felt they couldn't have

715
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:12.840
<v Speaker 2>any and timily said, you don't leave any witnesses I

716
00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:16.199
<v Speaker 2>mean she said that over and over talking about him.

717
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:23.559
<v Speaker 2>So the point is that that she Nancy had to

718
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:27.880
<v Speaker 2>die because she'd overheard a conversation where they talked about

719
00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:29.400
<v Speaker 2>killing Jesse Giles.

720
00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:31.679
<v Speaker 4>That was it.

721
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:35.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And that's exactly what they presented to the jury,

722
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:38.679
<v Speaker 2>and the jury agreed and convicted them.

723
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:40.480
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

724
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:44.960
<v Speaker 4>You talk about that they had sort of a unique

725
00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:47.679
<v Speaker 4>thing I haven't seen before where they have two trials,

726
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:52.760
<v Speaker 4>two juries, right, and making a decision at the same

727
00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:56.000
<v Speaker 4>time the two separate juries. So too, in a sense,

728
00:50:56.719 --> 00:51:07.719
<v Speaker 4>two separate trials Carol testify and later Tim testifying. Interesting too.

729
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:11.360
<v Speaker 4>Of course, it's very dramatic in the courtroom. You say

730
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:15.400
<v Speaker 4>that Nancy's relatives walked out of the courtroom at some

731
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:18.960
<v Speaker 4>point just because of the horrific nature of the description

732
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:25.440
<v Speaker 4>of the wounds and her treatment overall some of the testimony.

733
00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:27.159
<v Speaker 4>They couldn't handle it, could they.

734
00:51:29.719 --> 00:51:32.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, no, they couldn't. And I also have to tell

735
00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:35.480
<v Speaker 2>you that in doing the research in the book and

736
00:51:35.559 --> 00:51:43.320
<v Speaker 2>the interviews, at least one of Nancy's sisters accused me

737
00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:50.199
<v Speaker 2>of making money off of her dead sister because I

738
00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:55.440
<v Speaker 2>was writing a book about it, and that it's the

739
00:51:55.519 --> 00:51:59.159
<v Speaker 2>first time it's ever happened to me, Dan, And I

740
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:02.440
<v Speaker 2>told her, I said, what's the difference between what I'm

741
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:05.480
<v Speaker 2>doing and what the Detroit Free Press and the local

742
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:11.840
<v Speaker 2>media does. You know? It was really interesting, you know,

743
00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:17.280
<v Speaker 2>but I knew, of course that the family was just

744
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:22.039
<v Speaker 2>of course totally traumatized by what just occurred. I mean,

745
00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:25.679
<v Speaker 2>this is yeah, I mean, you know, and I again,

746
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:29.519
<v Speaker 2>this particular case really affected me. And one of the

747
00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:34.280
<v Speaker 2>things I've realized is I read it again, is you

748
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:37.960
<v Speaker 2>know what, anytime, you know, I won't take on a

749
00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:43.960
<v Speaker 2>case unless it affects me emotionally. It's got to get

750
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:46.880
<v Speaker 2>to me, you know, it's got to get to me.

751
00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:52.000
<v Speaker 2>And this did. And I think that's why, you know,

752
00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:53.119
<v Speaker 2>I really got into it.

753
00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:58.039
<v Speaker 4>What I find out of this at the trial and

754
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:05.559
<v Speaker 4>peril statements that obviously every criminal, every killer, every perpetrator

755
00:53:05.679 --> 00:53:09.199
<v Speaker 4>tries to put themselves in a little better light. But

756
00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:12.440
<v Speaker 4>no matter how much he can put herself in a

757
00:53:12.519 --> 00:53:14.800
<v Speaker 4>better light, it doesn't make her look good at all.

758
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:19.880
<v Speaker 4>It makes her look horrible. She talks about not really

759
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:24.480
<v Speaker 4>you know, not making a big deal of the theft

760
00:53:24.559 --> 00:53:29.599
<v Speaker 4>in the burglary, and yet when her enraged boyfriend Tim

761
00:53:29.719 --> 00:53:31.760
<v Speaker 4>is saying do you believe this woman? And she knows

762
00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:34.239
<v Speaker 4>she has a gun, He has a gun now, and

763
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:37.079
<v Speaker 4>he's been talking about doing something to her. And again

764
00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:39.960
<v Speaker 4>so she writes, I think this and genuinely how much

765
00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:43.360
<v Speaker 4>she wants to avoid this. But yet he asked her,

766
00:53:43.480 --> 00:53:45.480
<v Speaker 4>what do you do believe her? And well, no, I

767
00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:47.440
<v Speaker 4>don't believe her. I don't believe you, and then she

768
00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:54.880
<v Speaker 4>strikes her her friend. So almost everything, as much as

769
00:53:54.920 --> 00:54:00.079
<v Speaker 4>Tim is a horrifying low life, you know, paranoid I

770
00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:06.360
<v Speaker 4>want to be badass, would say as horrible and horrific

771
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:11.119
<v Speaker 4>as Carol's attitude. And it's like you write in part

772
00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:13.920
<v Speaker 4>of this book, you say you've never worked the case

773
00:54:13.960 --> 00:54:19.119
<v Speaker 4>where you had so much detailed information provided to you meeting,

774
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:22.559
<v Speaker 4>what they said, what they did, every every graphic detail

775
00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:25.280
<v Speaker 4>is in here, and this woman provided it.

776
00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:29.239
<v Speaker 2>You know what I'll be I'll be very frank with

777
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:33.800
<v Speaker 2>you and with with the listeners. You know, I'm reading

778
00:54:33.880 --> 00:54:36.559
<v Speaker 2>this and I'm going, gee, this would make a really

779
00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:43.440
<v Speaker 2>good movie. But seriously, there's a lot of there's a

780
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:49.800
<v Speaker 2>lot of graphic detail. And again the reason for that

781
00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:59.039
<v Speaker 2>is because the police officers Helton, Shanley and Messina, they

782
00:54:59.239 --> 00:55:05.800
<v Speaker 2>were in straordinarily open and helpful, and you know I

783
00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:09.039
<v Speaker 2>lucked out, you know, I just lucked out with that.

784
00:55:09.639 --> 00:55:12.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean I realized that now and they were just

785
00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:18.079
<v Speaker 2>so helpful with this. And you know it's because I'll

786
00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:21.400
<v Speaker 2>tell you. You know, as I'm reading today, I'm thinking,

787
00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:25.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, she's got two kids, Carol Childs, and I'm thinking,

788
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:30.880
<v Speaker 2>she wonder what happened to those kids? You know, it's

789
00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:33.119
<v Speaker 2>it's yeah, I don't know. I haven't looked it up,

790
00:55:33.559 --> 00:55:37.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, but maybe I will, you know, because now

791
00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:38.199
<v Speaker 2>they're adults.

792
00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:43.840
<v Speaker 4>It is also incredible the conversation did you have in

793
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:48.320
<v Speaker 4>here as well when she talks about injecting the heroine

794
00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:52.960
<v Speaker 4>into her obese husband's body and he realizes, he says,

795
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:56.480
<v Speaker 4>what did you put in that insulin? So with another

796
00:55:56.639 --> 00:55:58.719
<v Speaker 4>remarkable thing, and this is not the only story, but

797
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:01.280
<v Speaker 4>this is a really prime example of how sniveling these

798
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:04.400
<v Speaker 4>people are. You know, they want to kill somebody, They're

799
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:07.960
<v Speaker 4>they're badass, but they got to sneak up and use

800
00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:12.239
<v Speaker 4>all forms of deception that's within their grasp and then

801
00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:16.119
<v Speaker 4>watch these people slowly die as a result of what

802
00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:16.679
<v Speaker 4>they've done.

803
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:21.000
<v Speaker 2>And Carol did it twice I'm sitting here and I'm

804
00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:25.159
<v Speaker 2>not in vociferously. It is incredible. You know, these these

805
00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:32.280
<v Speaker 2>are sniveling cowards, you know, they really are. They're awful people.

806
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:37.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know again, it's like, okay, you know,

807
00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:40.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm sure you know you've talked to people

808
00:56:40.159 --> 00:56:44.000
<v Speaker 2>who've been insisted. You know we've you know, we both

809
00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:47.440
<v Speaker 2>talked to people. It's not an uncommon crime. Well that

810
00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:52.960
<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean you become a double murderer, you know, and

811
00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:59.679
<v Speaker 2>especially bad go ahead, no, no, no, go ahead? What

812
00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:00.199
<v Speaker 2>do I know?

813
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:03.119
<v Speaker 4>I think it seems to be the again, it's these

814
00:57:03.559 --> 00:57:06.519
<v Speaker 4>it's the nature of again, not an inanimate object, but

815
00:57:06.679 --> 00:57:11.639
<v Speaker 4>the people believe that they're completely addicted to this drug

816
00:57:11.719 --> 00:57:15.079
<v Speaker 4>and will do anything. You can see the effect of

817
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:19.679
<v Speaker 4>not grasping reality at any point for this woman, for

818
00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:23.320
<v Speaker 4>this Carol woman, I mean, it just seemed to be

819
00:57:24.280 --> 00:57:27.639
<v Speaker 4>an altered reality for her her life. And then when

820
00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:30.719
<v Speaker 4>police came about, I mean, they use some charm to

821
00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:32.559
<v Speaker 4>be able to get her to talk. But it's not

822
00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:38.159
<v Speaker 4>like other cases didn't seem to be certainly mentally ill

823
00:57:38.519 --> 00:57:42.119
<v Speaker 4>per se. But it is incredible the effect of the

824
00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:45.719
<v Speaker 4>drug and then the lacks of daisil sort of attitude

825
00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:49.239
<v Speaker 4>about everything after that, it seems like it just bore

826
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:50.639
<v Speaker 4>a hole in this woman's soul.

827
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:57.440
<v Speaker 2>Dan, you know, you're getting into something that I hadn't

828
00:57:57.639 --> 00:58:00.599
<v Speaker 2>really thought about, and you just reminded me of something,

829
00:58:01.239 --> 00:58:06.400
<v Speaker 2>okay about the use of that drug. Like I said earlier,

830
00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:10.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, I said, well, you know, the most the

831
00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:13.760
<v Speaker 2>worst I've ever done is is is it not worse?

832
00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:16.880
<v Speaker 2>But you know, smoking weed? But I did one time

833
00:58:16.960 --> 00:58:24.000
<v Speaker 2>in California. I did one time what do you call it?

834
00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:29.559
<v Speaker 2>Inhale cocaine? Okay, right? And I turned around to the

835
00:58:29.679 --> 00:58:33.440
<v Speaker 2>person who gave it to me and I said, well,

836
00:58:33.480 --> 00:58:36.639
<v Speaker 2>I don't feel anything different except I want to go

837
00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:39.679
<v Speaker 2>downstairs and drive my car like Jim Rockford and the

838
00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:43.320
<v Speaker 2>Rockford Files and turn it around real quick. And this

839
00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:46.440
<v Speaker 2>guy said, Fred, You're not going to do it. That's

840
00:58:46.559 --> 00:58:49.920
<v Speaker 2>my point. It's like when you're you know that you know,

841
00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:54.480
<v Speaker 2>you lose control, you lose control, and you take this crap,

842
00:58:55.800 --> 00:58:57.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, and you know you can you can try

843
00:58:57.880 --> 00:59:00.159
<v Speaker 2>to make an argument if you're a defense lawyer that

844
00:59:00.280 --> 00:59:02.679
<v Speaker 2>the person's under the influence, but it ain't gonna work,

845
00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:05.039
<v Speaker 2>you know. And they didn't do that in this case.

846
00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:05.519
<v Speaker 2>Thank god.

847
00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:10.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, they've both incriminated each other, and everything they said

848
00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:15.320
<v Speaker 4>just reinforced in forensic information and circumstantial evidence that they

849
00:59:15.400 --> 00:59:18.559
<v Speaker 4>had against them. It was also very interesting and you

850
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:22.239
<v Speaker 4>leave it open because it really is unknown. It looked

851
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:26.039
<v Speaker 4>like there was evidence of sodomy. They checked for Tim's

852
00:59:26.119 --> 00:59:30.119
<v Speaker 4>DNA there and didn't find that, so that was just

853
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:35.000
<v Speaker 4>another and you do righte that Carol says that Tim.

854
00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:39.199
<v Speaker 4>Of course again why not? Her boyfriend told her geez,

855
00:59:39.280 --> 00:59:41.519
<v Speaker 4>I'm really curious about what it's like to have sex

856
00:59:41.599 --> 00:59:44.320
<v Speaker 4>with a body, and of course Carol was not into that.

857
00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:50.599
<v Speaker 4>So very very interesting. Everything I've said, you know, that's

858
00:59:50.599 --> 00:59:53.440
<v Speaker 4>all based on the records, you know, you know what.

859
00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:58.679
<v Speaker 4>It's just as you're saying this, it's pretty disgusting, isn't

860
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:03.000
<v Speaker 4>it absolutely? You know, you know really, I mean, you

861
01:00:03.079 --> 01:00:05.239
<v Speaker 4>know this is you know, you know.

862
01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:11.880
<v Speaker 2>It's it's you know, it's it's really disgusting. And the fact,

863
01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:14.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, and they don't know if he did or

864
01:00:14.519 --> 01:00:19.719
<v Speaker 2>he didn't. And in a sense, it's time important because look,

865
01:00:20.199 --> 01:00:23.320
<v Speaker 2>the guy's in jail, that's it. He's not getting out,

866
01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:27.199
<v Speaker 2>never gonna happen. You know, I haven't even looked him up,

867
01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:30.000
<v Speaker 2>but you know, I can look him up again, but

868
01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:32.360
<v Speaker 2>it makes no difference. He's just gonna look a little

869
01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:35.800
<v Speaker 2>bit older. Who cares, you know, you know there are

870
01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:39.440
<v Speaker 2>some people. You know, it's interesting as we're talking Dan,

871
01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:42.639
<v Speaker 2>you know there are sometimes when when when you when

872
01:00:42.679 --> 01:00:45.119
<v Speaker 2>I write about a bad guy, you know, a murder

873
01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:51.719
<v Speaker 2>or whatever, you're sort of sympathetic. Is not the right turn,

874
01:00:51.880 --> 01:00:54.599
<v Speaker 2>but you know, you sort of want, you know, you

875
01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:57.480
<v Speaker 2>wonder a little about the person. Maybe you care a

876
01:00:57.559 --> 01:01:00.280
<v Speaker 2>little about the person. The lack of you know a

877
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:05.519
<v Speaker 2>better term, not these people. These are awful human beings.

878
01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:10.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, these are awful human beings. And look, if

879
01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:13.719
<v Speaker 2>this was a southern state when I'm having this conversation,

880
01:01:13.880 --> 01:01:15.760
<v Speaker 2>it would have been executed a long time ago.

881
01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:21.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you talk about the heroes in this if there

882
01:01:21.079 --> 01:01:24.159
<v Speaker 4>is such a thing as but the characters that are strong,

883
01:01:24.280 --> 01:01:29.239
<v Speaker 4>the detectives, Tom Helton, Mike Messina, Kevin CHANNELI. And but

884
01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:33.119
<v Speaker 4>you also spoke to Susan Garrison, which is Nancy's sibling,

885
01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:36.079
<v Speaker 4>and you said you spoke to her in this book

886
01:01:36.199 --> 01:01:39.960
<v Speaker 4>and she was cooperative. Before I let you go, tell

887
01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:43.199
<v Speaker 4>us a little bit about what might have been said

888
01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:46.400
<v Speaker 4>between you two about this, you.

889
01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:52.039
<v Speaker 2>Know what, it's a while back, but she was very cooperative,

890
01:01:53.239 --> 01:01:59.960
<v Speaker 2>and what she really did for me was it's really important,

891
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:04.039
<v Speaker 2>and she painted a picture of her sister as a

892
01:02:04.199 --> 01:02:09.800
<v Speaker 2>human being, not as a victim. And you know, when

893
01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:14.639
<v Speaker 2>you're writing about, you know, people who are murdered, it's

894
01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:19.360
<v Speaker 2>very important to get that background. So she was extremely

895
01:02:19.599 --> 01:02:23.280
<v Speaker 2>helpful that way. And that's why, as I said, I

896
01:02:23.519 --> 01:02:26.719
<v Speaker 2>kept two pictures on my desk when I wrote the book,

897
01:02:26.840 --> 01:02:33.159
<v Speaker 2>one of the Nancy. One of them was she was

898
01:02:33.199 --> 01:02:34.880
<v Speaker 2>going to be a nurse. She was going to study

899
01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:36.719
<v Speaker 2>to be a nurse, and then I had another picture

900
01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:41.000
<v Speaker 2>of her. It was very unusual situation for me. You

901
01:02:41.079 --> 01:02:44.000
<v Speaker 2>know too. I just kept thinking about her and thinking

902
01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:47.920
<v Speaker 2>about her and thinking about her because I just kept thinking, Man,

903
01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:53.000
<v Speaker 2>something wrong here. You know, this didn't have to happen,

904
01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:54.679
<v Speaker 2>but you know it is what it is.

905
01:02:57.079 --> 01:03:01.360
<v Speaker 4>You write in the book that the judge said to

906
01:03:01.639 --> 01:03:04.000
<v Speaker 4>Tim and to Caroll, he addressed both of me. He said,

907
01:03:04.039 --> 01:03:06.960
<v Speaker 4>you will spend the rest of your life in prison

908
01:03:07.119 --> 01:03:10.039
<v Speaker 4>trying to remember what it's like to be a real

909
01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:14.599
<v Speaker 4>human being. For a story about human beings. Yeah, it's

910
01:03:14.639 --> 01:03:16.559
<v Speaker 4>really something, you.

911
01:03:16.679 --> 01:03:20.079
<v Speaker 2>Know, you know that's that's unusual at least I don't know, Dan,

912
01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:22.000
<v Speaker 2>you would know better than I do, because you know,

913
01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:25.400
<v Speaker 2>there's stuff better than me. But that's the first time

914
01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:30.199
<v Speaker 2>I've ever heard judge that, you know, direct vocal to

915
01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:33.719
<v Speaker 2>use any term you want. You know, I mean it

916
01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:36.519
<v Speaker 2>hit home emotionally.

917
01:03:37.880 --> 01:03:42.079
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, No, it's it's it's a pretty dramatic, even for

918
01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:45.079
<v Speaker 4>a judge too in in sentencing even the most heinous

919
01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:47.960
<v Speaker 4>of criminals, to say something. But it sounds, you know,

920
01:03:48.639 --> 01:03:53.280
<v Speaker 4>it is pretty profound. Really it is just criticizing them.

921
01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:55.599
<v Speaker 5>But it's it's too much beyond that.

922
01:03:57.239 --> 01:03:58.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm going thank you.

923
01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:05.800
<v Speaker 5>Sorry. Well, you talked about this book in two thousand

924
01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:06.119
<v Speaker 5>and one.

925
01:04:06.199 --> 01:04:08.719
<v Speaker 4>This book came out, but this is a re release

926
01:04:08.920 --> 01:04:14.760
<v Speaker 4>in twenty and fifteen with Open Road Media. Yes, this book.

927
01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:19.320
<v Speaker 4>In two thousand and one, you said that it changed

928
01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:23.519
<v Speaker 4>your perspective. You had a child around this time this story,

929
01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:27.920
<v Speaker 4>and now you say it changed your attitude towards the

930
01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:31.400
<v Speaker 4>victims of crime. This is a perfect example where it

931
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:35.000
<v Speaker 4>would be hard to well not feel bad for Nancy,

932
01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:38.079
<v Speaker 4>but also, like many people, they think, well, you shouldn't

933
01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:39.679
<v Speaker 4>have done this, and you shouldn't have done that, and

934
01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:43.679
<v Speaker 4>put yourself in harm's way, And how did your attitude

935
01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:48.559
<v Speaker 4>change with being a father, Fred and your attitude towards victims.

936
01:04:49.639 --> 01:04:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for that question. The answer is I became

937
01:04:54.119 --> 01:04:59.239
<v Speaker 2>a whole lot less judgemnical. I didn't look at you know,

938
01:04:59.760 --> 01:05:04.119
<v Speaker 2>I just looked at things from a different perspective. And

939
01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:08.119
<v Speaker 2>of course I also look you know, I have I

940
01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:15.880
<v Speaker 2>have a daughter, and so any female victims. Immediately I

941
01:05:16.119 --> 01:05:19.280
<v Speaker 2>think about the fathers and the mothers and so forth

942
01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:24.920
<v Speaker 2>of the victims. And that's important because you know, and

943
01:05:25.119 --> 01:05:30.039
<v Speaker 2>I can, I can you know, humanize these people, you

944
01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:34.079
<v Speaker 2>know when you're writing, and and also you realize what

945
01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:36.719
<v Speaker 2>your limits are. I mean, I can tell you right

946
01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:40.639
<v Speaker 2>now that there's there's no in the world. I you know,

947
01:05:41.079 --> 01:05:45.800
<v Speaker 2>everybody talks about John Benny Ramsay, not me. I can't

948
01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:49.239
<v Speaker 2>touch a case like that. It's just I can't deal

949
01:05:49.280 --> 01:05:52.280
<v Speaker 2>with with children that are murdered. It's just it's just

950
01:05:52.400 --> 01:05:55.320
<v Speaker 2>off the charts for me, you know. So that all

951
01:05:55.480 --> 01:05:58.679
<v Speaker 2>changed when when I when I had a child. So

952
01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:01.280
<v Speaker 2>and I think it made me a better writer, at

953
01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:02.119
<v Speaker 2>least I hope it did.

954
01:06:03.519 --> 01:06:03.960
<v Speaker 4>I think so.

955
01:06:04.239 --> 01:06:04.599
<v Speaker 2>I think so.

956
01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:07.159
<v Speaker 4>Fred. I want to thank you Fred very much. For

957
01:06:07.559 --> 01:06:11.719
<v Speaker 4>talking about needlework, battery, acid, heroin, and double murder. Fred,

958
01:06:11.800 --> 01:06:16.519
<v Speaker 4>I know that you are in the process of about

959
01:06:16.559 --> 01:06:19.760
<v Speaker 4>to get your book published. Tell us just briefly about

960
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:23.480
<v Speaker 4>this book, what it's about. Tell us a little bit

961
01:06:23.480 --> 01:06:25.920
<v Speaker 4>about this your latest book project.

962
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:31.519
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Dan, I appreciate it. I'm work. I wrote

963
01:06:31.519 --> 01:06:36.360
<v Speaker 2>a book that I've been wanted to write for forty years. Honestly,

964
01:06:37.840 --> 01:06:43.000
<v Speaker 2>it's called Bat Masterson, The First Dreamer. Bat Masterson was

965
01:06:43.239 --> 01:06:46.119
<v Speaker 2>an American frontier hero who was the sheriff of God

966
01:06:46.360 --> 01:06:49.280
<v Speaker 2>City and later became the crusading reporter in Turn of

967
01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:55.679
<v Speaker 2>the Century New York. Well, it turns out that two things. First,

968
01:06:55.800 --> 01:06:59.719
<v Speaker 2>it was involved in seven major murder cases, one of

969
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:03.360
<v Speaker 2>which became known as the Trial of the Century in

970
01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:10.320
<v Speaker 2>the twentieth century. And most importantly, I suppose I had

971
01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:16.159
<v Speaker 2>no idea Masterson was a dreamer from Canada. He immigrated

972
01:07:16.159 --> 01:07:20.119
<v Speaker 2>to America and when he was eight years old with

973
01:07:20.280 --> 01:07:24.719
<v Speaker 2>his parents. And so I just have to tell you

974
01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:29.480
<v Speaker 2>that because of the fact that you know, I, you know,

975
01:07:29.599 --> 01:07:34.239
<v Speaker 2>I've learned to try and not be political, okay when

976
01:07:34.280 --> 01:07:39.239
<v Speaker 2>we're talking. You know, I did my research and what

977
01:07:39.400 --> 01:07:43.760
<v Speaker 2>did I find. Guess what there's a whole bunch of

978
01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:50.800
<v Speaker 2>presidents that have given a hard time to illegal immigrants

979
01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:56.159
<v Speaker 2>or supposed illegal immigrants. So there's nothing new about what's

980
01:07:56.239 --> 01:07:59.039
<v Speaker 2>happening today. But that's why I felt that Masterson was

981
01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:03.079
<v Speaker 2>the first Dreamer. That he lied every time that he

982
01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:07.199
<v Speaker 2>was asked on the census where he came from, and

983
01:08:07.320 --> 01:08:09.639
<v Speaker 2>he would say he would lie. You never said king

984
01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:14.000
<v Speaker 2>from Kenaday saying New York, Illinois. Whatever. The irony of

985
01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:17.039
<v Speaker 2>this is that Dan is that right now there's a

986
01:08:17.199 --> 01:08:19.319
<v Speaker 2>there's a legal case going on here in the United

987
01:08:19.399 --> 01:08:24.920
<v Speaker 2>States where the this that they took that question off

988
01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:28.920
<v Speaker 2>the census years ago where you're from, and now they

989
01:08:29.000 --> 01:08:30.600
<v Speaker 2>want to put it back on, and there's a big

990
01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:33.600
<v Speaker 2>legal case regarding it. So anyway, I'm talking to a

991
01:08:33.680 --> 01:08:37.279
<v Speaker 2>couple of publishers about Batmansters in The First Dreamer, and uh,

992
01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:40.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I hope that it's going to get published,

993
01:08:41.760 --> 01:08:43.640
<v Speaker 2>and I think it's going to be really good and

994
01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:48.159
<v Speaker 2>and I believe me, Dan, I thought about you when

995
01:08:48.199 --> 01:08:49.880
<v Speaker 2>I was writing about the murders.

996
01:08:52.479 --> 01:08:56.319
<v Speaker 4>Oh thanks, well, I said to myself, Dan's going to

997
01:08:56.479 --> 01:09:01.439
<v Speaker 4>like this, absolutely, I'm looking forward to it. Sounds fascinating.

998
01:09:01.600 --> 01:09:04.800
<v Speaker 4>So thanks Fred, for those that want to find out

999
01:09:04.840 --> 01:09:07.560
<v Speaker 4>a little bit more, I guess you have a Facebook page,

1000
01:09:07.600 --> 01:09:08.399
<v Speaker 4>do you have a website?

1001
01:09:08.479 --> 01:09:09.279
<v Speaker 5>Tell us a little bit.

1002
01:09:09.199 --> 01:09:11.399
<v Speaker 4>More about how they might look at all their work.

1003
01:09:11.680 --> 01:09:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Anybody, anybody want to find out anything about me, you

1004
01:09:15.680 --> 01:09:19.880
<v Speaker 2>can call the FBI CIA, and if you can't get

1005
01:09:19.920 --> 01:09:22.560
<v Speaker 2>through there, you can just go to Fredrosen dot com

1006
01:09:23.359 --> 01:09:26.920
<v Speaker 2>on my Facebook page or Open Road Media which is

1007
01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:30.720
<v Speaker 2>or Amazon of course they carry all my books.

1008
01:09:32.960 --> 01:09:36.119
<v Speaker 4>Well, Fred, thank you very much once again for an

1009
01:09:36.159 --> 01:09:39.680
<v Speaker 4>incredible interview. Thank you very much for Needlework, Battery, Acid,

1010
01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:42.920
<v Speaker 4>Heroin and Double Murder. Thank you very much, Fred Rosen,

1011
01:09:43.239 --> 01:09:44.079
<v Speaker 4>you have a great evening.

1012
01:09:45.239 --> 01:09:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Dan, thank you so much, and you are the best,

1013
01:09:49.119 --> 01:09:50.840
<v Speaker 2>sir audios.

1014
01:09:52.199 --> 01:09:53.039
<v Speaker 5>Thank you, good night.